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NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:52 PM
I still don't get why you have put it upon yourself to stand up for people who are sexually attracted to children, whether they act out on it or not.
As Jenny said, I am discussing management techniques.

I have compassion for people with mental illness because I've dealt with serious mental illnesss with myself and with my family. Nobody chooses to be mentally ill. People don't just wake up and say "hmmm... I think it would be totally badass to get horny while looking at little girls and slit my wrists."

I do not have compassion for child molesters.

xdamage
08-18-2008, 08:59 PM
I don't think it makes a difference between exclusive and non exclusive. That is so silly to think that someone who fantasizes sexually about children is somehow less sick or potentially harmful if they are also attracted to people who are age-appropriate to them.

Just a point to note... Many people in our society would define a 40 something man sexually fantasizing over a young 20 something woman as age inappropriate.

Yet there is a quandry because you are a stripper and, most strippers sexually entertain men more then twice their age, and do it for profit. They encourage this indulgence because it benefits them.

So puberty is a biologically significant fact in regards to sex. Beyond that then, what criteria are you using to define age appropriate?

xdamage
08-18-2008, 09:01 PM
If we are talking about someone who struggles with attraction to children and has never touched a child, I can't agree. No one would seek help if they knew that talking to a psychologist would land them under supervision for life.

If we start locking up every guy who checks out a 12-year-olds butt, we need to start putting up prisons at every street corner.

Oh I agree. It is the same with thoughts of suicide, or thoughts of committing assault or murder towards others. If we are going to judge them as evil sinners without having actually done anything wrong, everyone I know and myself included deserves to be locked up for fear that they "might" commit a crime.

ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 09:14 PM
Just a point to note... Many people in our society would define a 40 something man sexually fantasizing over a young 20 something woman as age inappropriate.

Yet there is a quandry because you are a stripper and, most strippers sexually entertain men more then twice their age, and do it for profit. They encourage this indulgence because it benefits them.

So puberty is a biologically significant fact in regards to sex. Beyond that then, what criteria are you using to define age appropriate?

I quantify age appropriate as someone being EITHER emotionally and physically mature OR two people in the same peer group, Like two 14 year olds fooling around are age appropriate for one another, AND a 24 year old dating a 40 year old is acceptable, too. The 40 year old, or even the 24 year old with the 14 year old is not.

The difference between me and the victim of abuse is that I do it willingly and for profit, and I am physically and emotionally mature, as is the man (maybe not emotionally in the man's case).

Lexi
08-18-2008, 09:21 PM
......

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 09:23 PM
^^^Lexi, do you recognize the possiblity for improved research and finding a cure?

Jenny
08-18-2008, 09:24 PM
I have compassion for people with mental illness because I've dealt with serious mental illnesss with myself and with my family. Nobody chooses to be mentally ill. People don't just wake up and say "hmmm... I think it would be totally badass to get horny while looking at little girls and slit my wrists."

I do not have compassion for child molesters.Do you remember John Robin Sharpe? You would have been quite young at the time, so it might not have been on your radar.

ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 09:26 PM
I see your point, but it's like trying to force us into liking x,y, or z. Almost every single one of the people who were interviewd (pedo or child molester) stated that the urge would never go away.

I saw a few documentaries/shows on this and the offenders always said that therapy was futile. Even though therapy focused on repressing the urges, it didn't stop them from acting out, or from wanting to act out. Many felt like they eventually would act out. :( The disorder is so fucked up.

I agree, but I wish I didn't have to. I wish we could treat it with drugs and therapy and it would go away. Even pedos who have been chemically castrated still act out.

This may not be PC in this thread, but this idea that they can have the urge and NOT act on it is silly, too. It's different than occasionally wanting to punch someone who pisses you off. It's their sexuality. It's indelible.

Lexi
08-18-2008, 09:28 PM
......

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 09:29 PM
This may not be PC in this thread, but this idea that they can have the urge and NOT act on it is silly, too. It's different than occasionally wanting to punch someone who pisses you off. It's their sexuality. It's indelible.
PC or not, it's factually incorrect.

ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 09:29 PM
^ the cure will be for the kids they hurt, not for them.

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 09:29 PM
Do you remember John Robin Sharpe? You would have been quite young at the time, so it might not have been on your radar.
I read about this case after the fact. I've actually read a lot of legal cases surrounding child pornography.

Lexi
08-18-2008, 09:32 PM
......

Jenny
08-18-2008, 09:33 PM
I read about this case after the fact. I've actually read a lot of legal cases surrounding child pornography.I realize that he is closer to the NAMBLA paradigm than what you are talking about, but I wondered what you thought about it. I mean, after reading that case it is hard to believe in indirect child porn as a "safe outlet".

ViolaStrings
08-18-2008, 09:34 PM
PC or not, it's factually incorrect.

I guess that's where we disagree and that's that.

The problem with this "cure" idea is that NO ONE is going to come forward and say "I'm sexually attracted to children and know it's wrong, help me". They only get treatment after they hurt a child and they have crossed the threshold into acting on their urges.

Lexi
08-18-2008, 09:35 PM
.......

MojoJojo
08-18-2008, 09:39 PM
I saw some of the footage of the Chinese girls taking showers. First....they're 16. Second....they look like they're 8. Yeah....creepy.

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 09:41 PM
I realize that he is closer to the NAMBLA paradigm than what you are talking about, but I wondered what you thought about it. I mean, after reading that case it is hard to believe in indirect child porn as a "safe outlet".
I didn't actually read the Wikipedia article, but if my memory serves me correctly, the issue was the legality of fictional "erotic" stories involving children.

To be perfectly frank, I do have a problem with distributing such stories. I believe they glamourize adult/child relationships rather than discussing them in a way which recognizes the severity of the issue.

That being said, I would have a very hard time supporting them being illegal because I am a huge proponent of freedom of expression. I guess I would require research to show that the distribution of these stories encourages pedophiles to become child molesters in order to sway my opinion.

I don't like it, I don't support it and I wouldn't encourage it. But with the information I have, I can't support it being illegal just because I find it distasteful.

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 09:43 PM
The problem with this "cure" idea is that NO ONE is going to come forward and say "I'm sexually attracted to children and know it's wrong, help me". At least not when people have attitudes like you.

And no offense, but I can't believe your "facts" that all pedophiles act out when you have nothing to show.

My belief is anecdotal information but like I said, I've discussed pedophilia with dozens of pedophiles.

xdamage
08-19-2008, 04:47 AM
I quantify age appropriate as someone being EITHER emotionally and physically mature OR two people in the same peer group, Like two 14 year olds fooling around are age appropriate for one another, AND a 24 year old dating a 40 year old is acceptable, too. The 40 year old, or even the 24 year old with the 14 year old is not.

The difference between me and the victim of abuse is that I do it willingly and for profit, and I am physically and emotionally mature, as is the man (maybe not emotionally in the man's case).

My personal definition happens to align with yours of course. Still, not everyone would agree with us.

As a side point, we not so long ago had a discussion on the blue side about the whole school girl outfit thing in strip clubs. Is it perverted? Does it promote child abuse? Etc. It touched on some of the points in this thread and again we saw not everyone could agree. The 14 year old case is easy. The 24 year old case is relatively easy. But it is the tough gray area in the middle where people start to strongly disagree. 19 and a 40 year old? Hmmm... 18... people say depends on maturity. 17?? 17 +364 days? 16?

And then of course it depends on culture too. Ours trained us to see it a certain way but in other cultures the lines people are taught are sometimes younger.

Anyway, obviously when it comes to my own kids I'd have ZERO mercy for anyone abusing them so most of this is academic. And there is absolutely no question I'd not see it as an less offensive if it happened a year after puberty either. Again, so it is academic.

OTOH if it is just perpetual thought and it stays that way and they self control, I have to admit I don't see how I could argue in favor of locking them up because of what they "might" do. If our culture was to adopt laws like that it is a scary slippery slope where the slope would see us all losing a lot of freedoms because others strongly believe we might do [fill in the blank]. All such laws would do is lead people to shut-up about what they are thinking. It wouldn't actually stop the thoughts, and if there was any hope of them seeking treatment, they wouldn't for fear of the consequences.

yoda57us
08-19-2008, 05:04 AM
I paid a lot more attention to women's gymnastics before beach volleyball became an Olympic sport... I mean come on, hot women in tiny bathing suites rolling around in the sand and slapping each other on the ass! It just doesn't get any better...oh yeah, did I mention the cheerleaders?

Years ago the minimum age for a female gymnast was something like thirteen or fourteen. The age limit was raised to sixteen and pressure was put on training programs world-wide to let these young girls develop as normal women would...obviously China didn't get the memo.

Anywho...the net result of all of this is that we now have curvy sixteen year olds instead of pre-pubescent fourteen year olds running around in spandex that is designed and manufactured to show-off their bodies. How can a guy not look?

Now, I'm not going to go out and try to hit on a sixteen year old after I watch the Olympics. In fact, I pretty much don't even go near strippers who are under thirty when I'm clubbing. Sure the young ladies on television look amazing but when it comes to my sexual appetite I still like grown-ups.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 06:16 AM
I think you are assuming too much and your generalizations about pedophilia are inaccurate.

Every counselor I've ever spoken with (and many have talked with my family) has agreed that pedophiles start with fantasizing, sometimes lasting for years, then go on to molesting, many times their victims getting progressively younger. They don't stop, and are never cured, once that switch is flipped, there is no going back. Many act out while trying to stay within the bounds of the law by seeking out underdeveloped women who are just old enough to allow them to stay out of prison. BUT they are STILL pedophiles. Don't let your children near them. Please don't be like my Grandma and take this lightly. Dozens of counselors couldn't convince her, she defended him until her dying breath. Using many of the arguements you girls are using.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 06:31 AM
First of all, I never said anything about the gymnasts that were of age, Lexi. This is the 2nd time you have taken a post of mine completely out of context. I would expect better of a moderator.

I am talking about the average gymnasts that I watched the other night. I went to bed early, but the girls I saw were 14-16 with one 17 yr old, I think.

** Saying they have a nice ass is different than being attracted to them.

** If you can't see the difference in being attracted to a 30 yr old with small breasts and being attracted to a 15 yr old.... Well, your a moron and I can't really reason with someone like that.

** We have higher reasoning which enables us to control things like attraction to some degree. Why do you think guys aren't boffing their sisters.... Or do you think that's ok as well? (If they are hot, of course.)

** The guys who fantasize about the young girls are not benign. Pedophiles start this way and then progress (some have the iron will to take years and I would guess a few never take it outside their fantasys.... Does this make it ok.... My kids wouldn't be allowed around them...)

** Shaun Johnson does have the ass of an older woman, but she doesn't look older. Age determination is about much more than your ass. Besides that, she is one of the older girls that I thought were kind of on the fence.

I can't explain my position much better than this. Age determination is about MUCH more than your ass. Your brain controls attraction, not just your hormones. Telling guys it's ok to fantasize about very young underage girls makes the problem worse, not better (the more they think about it the more likely they are to act on it). Ask any abuse counselor about this if you don't believe me.

I don't know why I'm still posting in this thread. The rampant stupidity and misconstruing everything that is said is really tiring. Just please, if you don't believe there is anything wrong with guys fantasizing about young girls, don't have kids... EVER! I've seen the destruction.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 06:37 AM
Just a point to note... Many people in our society would define a 40 something man sexually fantasizing over a young 20 something woman as age inappropriate.

Yet there is a quandry because you are a stripper and, most strippers sexually entertain men more then twice their age, and do it for profit. They encourage this indulgence because it benefits them.

So puberty is a biologically significant fact in regards to sex. Beyond that then, what criteria are you using to define age appropriate?

Just pointing out that I don't have a problem with this. If the guy wants a 20 yr old to keep on a leash, then he's an ass, but not an uncurable criminal. Totally different thing. Apples to oranges.

My critieria for age appropriate (for older men) is through and finished with puberty and it's physical and mental changes. Puberty lasts longer than a second for women. That's why I don't see a problem if men are attracted to the fully developed 16 yr olds I see at the mall. It would be a problem if they acted on it, but not for noticing.

BTW - This is something I hadn't really thought of much and therefore I may change my mind. There could be a shitload of holes in this theory...It's totally off the top of my head. Never thought about this topic much because I don't associate with men who have a preference for youngish girls.

Mr Hyde
08-19-2008, 08:05 AM
Jasmine, you're wrong, no offense. Pedophiles are attracted to little kids. Every gymnast out there (except the horribly cheating Chinese) are 16 or older and they look it. Now, they're shorter with small chests, but to try to claim that it's pedophilic to think that 16 year old Shawn Johnson is good-looking...that's asinine. There is nothing pedophilic about finding a 16 year old girl attractive. You can't extrapolate every instance of finding an underage girl attractive into mass pedophilia...sorry...I know you're emotional about this, but on this argument, you're just wrong.

jaizaine
08-19-2008, 08:23 AM
LOL at this thread still continuing.
I had the exact same build as the gymnasts until I was about 23 - elite gymnasts did delay breast growth and periods for me too. But obviously I didn't think guys who were attracted to me were perverted.

I think the only thing that is perverted is a guy who KNOWS that a girl is 15 or 16 and still continues perving at her. But I dont expect much of most men.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 09:02 AM
Jasmine, you're wrong, no offense. Pedophiles are attracted to little kids. Every gymnast out there (except the horribly cheating Chinese) are 16 or older and they look it. Now, they're shorter with small chests, but to try to claim that it's pedophilic to think that 16 year old Shawn Johnson is good-looking...that's asinine. There is nothing pedophilic about finding a 16 year old girl attractive. You can't extrapolate every instance of finding an underage girl attractive into mass pedophilia...sorry...I know you're emotional about this, but on this argument, you're just wrong.

I love the way you assume you are intelligent enough to make this broad sweeping statement. Please read my statement about not thinking it is wrong to say "wow, she's cute." but thinking "wow, I want to do her" being a different matter. Also, aren't most of the gymnasts in the 14-16 yr old range? I think I was pretty clear about the 16 & 17 yr olds being a little different.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 09:05 AM
LOL at this thread still continuing.
I had the exact same build as the gymnasts until I was about 23 - elite gymnasts did delay breast growth and periods for me too. But obviously I didn't think guys who were attracted to me were perverted.

I think the only thing that is perverted is a guy who KNOWS that a girl is 15 or 16 and still continues perving at her. But I dont expect much of most men.

This is what I'm talking about. There is a HUGE difference in a small stature, non-curvy adult and a child. Men are not so damn stupid they can't tell the difference....and if they are then natural selection should take over soon.

Mr Hyde
08-19-2008, 09:45 AM
I love the way you assume you are intelligent enough to make this broad sweeping statement. Please read my statement about not thinking it is wrong to say "wow, she's cute." but thinking "wow, I want to do her" being a different matter. Also, aren't most of the gymnasts in the 14-16 yr old range? I think I was pretty clear about the 16 & 17 yr olds being a little different.

Again, no offense, but your questioning my intelligence when you don't know the legal age for Olympic gymnasts is a little much. By the rules, they HAVE to be 16...so every member of the US team is 16 or older.

Finding a 16 year old attractive is normal.

Acting on it is illegal and wrong, but claiming that a man finding a US olympic gymnast as attractive is 100% normal.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 10:15 AM
Again, no offense, but your questioning my intelligence when you don't know the legal age for Olympic gymnasts is a little much. By the rules, they HAVE to be 16...so every member of the US team is 16 or older.

Finding a 16 year old attractive is normal.

Acting on it is illegal and wrong, but claiming that a man finding a US olympic gymnast as attractive is 100% normal.

Sorry, I read and only really watch TV when someone else has it on. I questioned your intelligence, because like everyone else in this thread you seemed to be saying the opposing side of the issue was completely wrong in every way. A very narrow minded point of view. Most everyone who disagreed with my points pretty much did the same thing. Ignored most of what I said and attacked a few very broad points.

If anyone bothered to read my posts my point was that it isn't always terrible to be attracted to someone who isn't yet 18, just that there must be some boundaries and singing la-di-da and ignoring the deviants who always go for the very young doesn't help the situation. Trying to convince yourself and those around you that it is ok because people "can't help it" also doesn't make it ok. Guys have sisters who are sexually mature, yet it isn't ok to be attracted to them. This is no different. If guys can control that then they can keep it zipped and keep the fantasizing and perving under control for 14-16 yr olds.

Sorry about being uninformed about the age thing. I haven't been keeping up with shit the way I normally do, I just got back from the wake and funeral services for my mom's identical twin. Yesterday, I was just listening to a woman bitch about the Chinese gymnasts really being 10-13 and I'm pretty sure she said they had to be at least 14. Wasn't important enough to look it up with everything going on and it never occured to me that she was wrong because they do look much younger.

The opposing side of this issue really confuses me. You guys remind me of listening to g-ma defend him. All the "You can't help who you are attracted to" stuff. There are always a few defenders that convince the general public it isn't so bad and enable the perverts to continue their reigns of terror.

lemiwinks31
08-19-2008, 02:02 PM
First of all, I never said anything about the gymnasts that were of age, Lexi. This is the 2nd time you have taken a post of mine completely out of context. I would expect better of a moderator.


if you go back to the beginning of this thread....someone posted a picture of the US gymnasts...of which, 2 are 20, 1 is 18, 1 is 17 and 2 were 16......

you said that they all looked like 8 yr olds and anyone who found them attractive was sick.....


so basically.....you WERE talking about gymnasts that were of age....

by the way, did you see the interview of the one U.S. gymnast in her street clothes(Sacramone)? She had nice tits:)



yes...she was 20

xdamage
08-19-2008, 05:05 PM
BTW - This is something I hadn't really thought of much and therefore I may change my mind. There could be a shitload of holes in this theory...It's totally off the top of my head. Never thought about this topic much because I don't associate with men who have a preference for youngish girls.

It's not an easy topic. There is a whole big area where people are neither clearly children nor clearly adults. I think many societies and law makers struggle with it. Individually people's opinions vary a lot. There is just no way to come up with a simple rule that covers every case.

My sense of wrongness is sort of a big scale from extreme to ever decreasing degrees of concern as people's ages go up. Of course even a 20 or 30 or 40 something can be mentally not fully mature, have personality disorders, emotional illness, etc., which impairs their judgments, but that is life. It's complex.

ViolaStrings
08-19-2008, 05:19 PM
When did this discussion turn toward pedophilia? These girls are sexually mature, and some are of age.

The topic diverged and expanded.

Dottie Rebel
08-19-2008, 06:17 PM
Jasmine, it's kind of hard to take you seriously when you are so emotionally involved in this issue that you ignore facts and use hyperbole to make your arguments.

Sixteen has been the minimum age to compete since 1997, and the United States has complied. Yet you insist that the girls YOU saw were 14-16 and *maybe* a 17 year old and then back it up with "some lady told me so". I pretty much excuse myself from the conversation at that point because it's all about emotion and gossip.

jasmine
08-19-2008, 06:29 PM
Jasmine, it's kind of hard to take you seriously when you are so emotionally involved in this issue that you ignore facts and use hyperbole to make your arguments.

Sixteen has been the minimum age to compete since 1997, and the United States has complied. Yet you insist that the girls YOU saw were 14-16 and *maybe* a 17 year old and then back it up with "some lady told me so". I pretty much excuse myself from the conversation at that point because it's all about emotion and gossip.

Once again, I don't watch TV very much. I used to watch the gymnastics portion of the Olympics, but that was in High School. The conversation has changed and doesn't have a damn thing about the Olympics anymore. Now it seems to be about if it is appropriate for men to be attracted to young girls or appropriate for women to support men who are, so I fail to see how my lack of knowledge regarding sporting events has an effect.

Jenny
08-19-2008, 06:34 PM
Jasmine, you are clearly very emotional about this. I'm assuming that you have some personal connection to this subject matter. It might be asking quite a lot to ask someone with that kind of connection to read more analytically than what you are doing. Like it doesn't mean that you aren't smart or don't know things, but this might just be a subject on which you can't really converse rationally if you feel you've been traumatized. But that is not the bulk of the conversation. There is some conversation about what factors attract men, and which of those are "natural"; there is some conversation about how different it is to look, to leer, to objectify and to touch; there is some conversation about managing pedophilia. It is nothing like what you think.
Once again, I don't watch TV very much. I used to watch the gymnastics portion of the Olympics, but that was in High School. The conversation has changed and doesn't have a damn thing about the Olympics anymore. Now it seems to be about if it is appropriate for men to be attracted to young girls or appropriate for women to support men who are, so I fail to see how my lack of knowledge regarding sporting events has an effect.