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FBR
08-16-2008, 03:04 PM
I get approached from time to time especially at a convenience store near my office where I stop to get gum or a pop or whatever. I usually give the person my change or a buck or two. Of course, I realize there is a good chance the money really isn't for food or for gas for his broken down car a couple of blocks away containing a wife and a couple of kids. But when I see a guy my age (it always seems to be a guy my age) who looks pretty rough and no doubt hasn't been blessed in life as I have, I just do it and move on.

In addition to other charities we donate to, my wife and I contribute a reasonable sum monthly to The Franciscans. They do a good job helping those in need.

FBR

StrawberrySwitchblade
08-16-2008, 03:06 PM
No.

I do remember being in ATL and stopping a a gas station, and the homeless just come out of the friggin' concrete and wash my car's windows, then expect to get paid. i paid them, but the moment I saw them from then on I shooed them away, or brought them a box of donuts. They did not appreciate the donuts. They got very pissed I did not give them money instead. (I did not allow them to wash my window when I brought the donuts) So they got neither the time after that.

Hello_Kitty27
08-16-2008, 03:39 PM
No.

I do remember being in ATL and stopping a a gas station, and the homeless just come out of the friggin' concrete and wash my car's windows, then expect to get paid. i paid them, but the moment I saw them from then on I shooed them away, or brought them a box of donuts. They did not appreciate the donuts. They got very pissed I did not give them money instead. (I did not allow them to wash my window when I brought the donuts) So they got neither the time after that.

We have guys that wash windows no matter how many times you say NO and no matter how emphatically you say it. And then they get pissed after you say no, they do it anyways and you DON'T pay them. I love it. It's happened to me 20 too many times, and sadly, plenty of those times have been after midnight with no one else around. It does scare me, as there's usually more than one of them on the same corner, I'm alone, 5'3", and there no one else around. Needless to say I'm not shy about running red lights anymore if I have to get away from them.

doc-catfish
08-16-2008, 04:47 PM
Really? And I bet no non-homeless stranger has ever committed vandalism or said something rude to you.
One particular homeless person in the span of single day said something rude to me and perhaps not coincidentally vandalized the most valuable piece of tangible property I owned at the time, which wasn't much. I had to literally put two of the floor mats over my driver's seat to get the car home without cutting myself on the glass. I mean, it wasn't exactly being raped or anything, but I certainly felt violated.

Forgive me for not feeling sympathy for the guy's plight at that moment, or having a bit less sympathy for people like him ever since. I mean, haven't many of the gals on this forum made a similar generalizations about certain demographics of customers (race, age, appearance) they encounter?

Are such stereotypes prejudicial? Absolutely. But stereotypes just don't develop out of thin air.


What was his ethnic background? What was his gender? How old was he?
I don't see where it matters, but he was a white male in his 30s or 40s.


Do you hold the same impression of all people who match the above, just like you judge those who have a similar residency staus to this person?

No. To be more specific, my beef is a lot less about the homeless in general as it is about panhandlers. Most homeless people I've encountered tend to not beg for change. The issue here is the behavior, which I feel is something I'm helping worsen by putting money in their hands.

Jenny
08-16-2008, 05:06 PM
One particular homeless person in the span of single day said something rude to me and perhaps not coincidentally vandalized the most valuable piece of tangible property I owned at the time, which wasn't much. I had to literally put two of the floor mats over my driver's seat to get the car home without cutting myself on the glass. I mean, it wasn't exactly being raped or anything, but I certainly felt violated.
And like I said - no non homeless person has probably ever been rude or committed an act of vandalism. I'm sure that is something if not absolutely unique, then at least generally specific to the homeless population. Nobody with an income and an apartment have ever been rude to strangers; or at least it is very unlikely.

And would you think I was wise to develop preconceptions of guys based on the ones that accost me? Do you feel comfortable being judged by negative stereotypes attached to "the way men act"?


Forgive me for not feeling sympathy for the guy's plight at that moment,
That I will certainly forgive you for

or having a bit less sympathy for people like him ever since.
This one not so much.


I mean, haven't many of the gals on this forum made a similar generalizations about certain demographics of customers (race, age, appearance) they encounter?
Yes. What's your point?


Are such stereotypes prejudicial? Absolutely. But stereotypes just don't develop out of thin air.
Are you contending right now that "prejudicial stereotypes" exist because they are true?

NewMoon
08-16-2008, 06:05 PM
Are such stereotypes prejudicial? Absolutely. But stereotypes just don't develop out of thin air. It was more the fact that you developed this prejudice over ONE incident that surprised me.



I don't see where it matters, but he was a white male in his 30s or 40s. The reason I feel it matters is because if you are going to develope generalizations over one incident for people based on their residence, then you might as well also develope generalizations over people age, race, ect. for one incident.

Lexi
08-16-2008, 06:45 PM
........

ExoticEngineer
08-16-2008, 06:53 PM
This is a friend of mine named James. I met him when I was trying to catch a dog that had run into the busy street in my neighborhood. He helped me catch the little guy by blocking an exit in a parking lot so the dog wouldn't run back out again.

After I took the dog back to it's owner I saw this guy pushing his cart back down the same street. I had seen him in the neighborhood a couple of times, he obviously stood out quite a bit. I stopped at Quizno's to pick up dinner and bought an extra sub, took it to this guy and thanked him for helping me catch the dog.

James flashed me this HAYUGE smile and thanked me for the sandwich. I saw him again maybe a week later, pushing his big ole cart down the same street. I didn't have any subs this time, but I pulled off to the side street and got out to say hi. Yes, I really did. I had five bucks on me, and asked if he'd had dinner yet. "Nope." Another HAYUGE smile. So I asked if he wanted five bucks, "Sure, thanks."

I talked to him for a bit, James was "in the war" and had done "some seriously bad drugs" when he came home. He had a job, but it didn't work out after he got back, so he lost it. He had a wife, but she didn't like that he didn't have a job, so he lost her too. He says "I'm probably crazy, but as far as I know I'm just fine, but I bet I'm crazy."

I asked him what he does all day, pushing this cart back and forth..."I collect stuff. Some I keep, some I sell, some I give to the other guys who might need it."

James wore a Tommy Hilfiger shirt wrapped around his head as a hat. He says he has a unique sense of style.

He says he stops to read all the posters for lost animals, because he has the time to find them, and maybe someday he can get a reward.

I saw him once a week, and would stop and see how he was doing....sometimes I had subs, sometimes I had cash, sometimes I had nothing at all...and each time he was happy to say hi and chit chat. And smile. We talked about technology one day, call phones, cars, etc...and he asked if I would take a picture of him with my phone and show it to him, sure why not? He said "Can I smile, even though I have no teeth!!??" And gave a big big grin. That's the picture below.

This started a year ago or so...and James got thinner and worse off health wise every day.

I haven't seen James for a few months now. But I think about him every time I drive by the parking lot. All the money I gave him could have gone to too booze or drugs, or whatever...but I just thought that when you give something away, do you really have any say over what's done with it? Nope. Is it more important to me to know that I made someone a little happier for a moment? Yep.

That's all. I just wanted to share that.

NewMoon
08-16-2008, 06:53 PM
But I get pissed because he CAN change - he just chooses not to.
As someone who has dealt with mental illness extensively, I have to say that are incorrect that anyone who is mentally ill can just "change". To me, it is comparable to telling someone who has cancer to "change". There are cases where people are so mentally ill they lose control.

My dad is getting better but I know he lacks control because he loves his family and there is no way he would choose to lose us over alcohol. His illness overpowered him. I firmly believe that and I know because I've experienced it myself.

HoolaTwist
08-16-2008, 06:56 PM
This is a friend of mine named James. I met him when I was trying to catch a dog that had run into the busy street in my neighborhood. He helped me catch the little guy by blocking an exit in a parking lot so the dog wouldn't run back out again.

After I took the dog back to it's owner I saw this guy pushing his cart back down the same street. I had seen him in the neighborhood a couple of times, he obviously stood out quite a bit. I stopped at Quizno's to pick up dinner and bought an extra sub, took it to this guy and thanked him for helping me catch the dog.

James flashed me this HAYUGE smile and thanked me for the sandwich. I saw him again maybe a week later, pushing his big ole cart down the same street. I didn't have any subs this time, but I pulled off to the side street and got out to say hi. Yes, I really did. I had five bucks on me, and asked if he'd had dinner yet. "Nope." Another HAYUGE smile. So I asked if he wanted five bucks, "Sure, thanks."

I talked to him for a bit, James was "in the war" and had done "some seriously bad drugs" when he came home. He had a job, but it didn't work out after he got back, so he lost it. He had a wife, but she didn't like that he didn't have a job, so he lost her too. He says "I'm probably crazy, but as far as I know I'm just fine, but I bet I'm crazy."

I asked him what he does all day, pushing this cart back and forth..."I collect stuff. Some I keep, some I sell, some I give to the other guys who might need it."

James wore a Tommy Hilfiger shirt wrapped around his head as a hat. He says he has a unique sense of style.

He says he stops to read all the posters for lost animals, because he has the time to find them, and maybe someday he can get a reward.

I saw him once a week, and would stop and see how he was doing....sometimes I had subs, sometimes I had cash, sometimes I had nothing at all...and each time he was happy to say hi and chit chat. And smile. We talked about technology one day, call phones, cars, etc...and he asked if I would take a picture of him with my phone and show it to him, sure why not? He said "Can I smile, even though I have no teeth!!??" And gave a big big grin. That's the picture below.

This started a year ago or so...and James got thinner and worse off health wise every day.

I haven't seen James for a few months now. But I think about him every time I drive by the parking lot. All the money I gave him could have gone to too booze or drugs, or whatever...but I just thought that when you give something away, do you really have any say over what's done with it? Nope. Is it more important to me to know that I made someone a little happier for a moment? Yep.

That's all. I just wanted to share that.

That just broke my heart :'( You're an awesome person for being a friend to this guy.

glambman
08-16-2008, 07:01 PM
We have guys that wash windows no matter how many times you say NO and no matter how emphatically you say it. And then they get pissed after you say no, they do it anyways and you DON'T pay them. I love it. It's happened to me 20 too many times, and sadly, plenty of those times have been after midnight with no one else around. It does scare me, as there's usually more than one of them on the same corner, I'm alone, 5'3", and there no one else around. Needless to say I'm not shy about running red lights anymore if I have to get away from them.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey5ceVR7VD4

NewMoon
08-16-2008, 07:10 PM
^^^I think it's not just the homeless people themselves but the resources available in our respective cities that form our opinions.

anomar
08-16-2008, 07:37 PM
^^IAWTC strongly. Particularly with working for a newspaper, I'm more attuned to this situation on a policy level more than going downtown a lot.

EE, thank you so much for sharing that story.

...in other news, I gave $1 to a dude playing the ukelele at Saturday Market. He only had one arm!!! He strummed with a wooden peg.

threlayer
08-16-2008, 10:11 PM
I only give the the honest ones -- i.e., the ones with signs like

"Why Lie?"
"I need a BEER."

or

"I'm on the Twelve Step Program
and need your help."
"I gotta have two six-packs."

UltraViolet
08-16-2008, 10:22 PM
I use to, but don't anymore because of all the scam artists and aggressive behavior. Many times I have been approached by 'homeless' men and I tell them "Please leave me alone. Coming up to a lone female like myself is not welcome and it makes me uncomfortable". Most of the time that's enough to make them apologize and go away.

Lena
08-17-2008, 02:37 AM
I have more faith in, for example, the Salvation Army than a random Joe on the street.

You'd rather give money to a military organisation obsessed with spreading Christianity than to someone who needs it? /:O

NewMoon
08-17-2008, 05:51 AM
You'd rather give money to a military organisation obsessed with spreading Christianity than to someone who needs it? /:O
I'm not religious but the Salvation Army does excellent work in my community and so I would be happy to give to them to help the needy.

TigersMilk
08-17-2008, 08:35 AM
Interesting.....see the part where I say, "This does not fit all homeless people, as many are incredibly gracious and in true need...."

I am in awe of the ability of "people from large cities in california" to read properly.::)

The last statement wasn't aimed at you so I have no idea why you are taking offense.

jaizaine
08-17-2008, 09:22 AM
Sometimes if I'm in a good mood. Sometimes they can be very ungrateful and not even say thanks. Some are prob not even homeless.

However one night while walking towards work a guy asked me for money and i gave him some and that night I made the most money I've ever made stripping. I put it down to good karma.

I have money and can afford to so why not. That change is not gonna do much for me.

MissDewdrop
08-17-2008, 09:42 AM
I give money or food if I have some extra, so long as the person isn't acting aggressively. There are a ton of homeless people in the area that I attend school. Some of them are know scam artists. If I recognize someone that's been seen climbing into a fancy car at the end of the day, then I say "sorry, I don't have any money" and leave it at that. Even if some are buying alcohol and drugs, I figure it's not my business what they do with the money.

I'm not dancing now, so my available funds are almost nil. The way I see it, I choose to give if I'm able. It costs me very little to help someone out, and if it makes his/her life a little better, even temporarily, then I see no problem at all.

dlabtot
08-17-2008, 09:55 AM
If I'm asked for spare change and I have change to spare, I give it. Of course, there is no sales tax in this state so it's rare to have change.

callah44
08-17-2008, 03:47 PM
As someone who has dealt with mental illness extensively, I have to say that are incorrect that anyone who is mentally ill can just "change". To me, it is comparable to telling someone who has cancer to "change". There are cases where people are so mentally ill they lose control.

My dad is getting better but I know he lacks control because he loves his family and there is no way he would choose to lose us over alcohol. His illness overpowered him. I firmly believe that and I know because I've experienced it myself.


This is so true. The problem with mental illness is that people cannot SEE that you are sick....therefore, for someone who hasn't dealt with that it is difficult to conceptualize what mental illness means....you cannot just snap your fingers one day and say, today isthe day Im going to be normal. When an illness can be seen, however, no one questions that. Sorry Im rambling, I was out all night last night }:D

kitty69
08-17-2008, 11:24 PM
I usually give if I can (sometimes I only have my bus fare etc). I nearly always buy the 'big issue', but then give them the magazine straight back so they can resell it and make more money.
I believe in random acts of kindness and try to do one thing each day. :)


Big Issue is a magazine sold by the homeless through a scheme to help get them back on their feet, they cannot beg etc and have to stick to strict guidelines when selling the magazines.

UltraViolet
08-18-2008, 12:12 AM
Argh....two shining examples of scam artists that make me leery of helping homeless....

1.) Man standing on the corner in the more upscale part of town. Fine, I've seen plenty of them around. At least they don't make it totally obvious whether or not they are faking. But this guy was glaringly obvious. Decent jeans, nice clean blue button down shirt, clean baseball cap, and trimmed hair, clean shaven.....holding a standard battered cardboard sign asking for spare change. Oh come on. So fucking obvious.

2.) Me alone at the end of the WalMart parking lot, greasy looking guy walks right up behind me and says "Do you have 50 cents? My car broke down around the corner...." and I quickly say no. Come on, do you know how often I hear the whole 'my car broke down AROUND THE CORNER'.And how the fuck is 50 cents going to fix your broken car? Right. ::) At least change your standard line.

I just don't trust any of them anymore because a big chunk of them want to scam.

Mr Hyde
08-18-2008, 08:05 AM
Planning an institution without immediate relief is not a sensible kind of institution building. Giving someone change is not intended to feed them for life - it is intended to help them through that day. No matter how ambitious and likely (or unlikely) the institutional aid, it cannot address immediate need. So your theoretical has set up a false dichotomy that is not a useful way of addressing the problem.

The homeless can get immediate help at a shelter!!!! IF they need to get thru the day, have them go to a shelter. There is food there.

If 40 people give a homeless person an average of 75 cents every day, that person now has $28 a day. While far from extravagant, I bet I could pool that with 2-3 other homeless people and afford enough food to live in plus some really cheap hooch to feed my alcoholism. Woo! Yeah, let's keep feeding the problem with feel-good pocket change!

OK getting off the sarcasm...if donating to homeless shelters/charities is not a useful way of helping the homeless, then you're telling me that giving them your pocket change is? Really?

LatinaRose
08-18-2008, 08:07 AM
I do as long as I have smalls bills or change on me. I think its good karma and I like knowing I've made someones day just a little bit easier.

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:10 AM
The homeless can get immediate help at a shelter!!!! IF they need to ge thru the day, have them go to a shelter. There is food there.

Depending on your locality, many shelters (if they aren't already overcrowded) are plagued with theft, violence, rape, ect. Many feel safer on the streets. Getting into a shelter is not as easy as it may seem.

My parents almost abandoned me at age 15 and even at that age, my social worker had a very difficult time finding a shelter that would take me.

Now having said that, I believe the solution to this problem is not to give money on the streets but to give money to the shelters to improve them.

I recognize the problem, I just have a different preferred course of action than others in this thread.

Mr Hyde
08-18-2008, 08:19 AM
Depending on your locality, many shelters (if they aren't already overcrowded) are plagued with theft, violence, rape, ect. Many feel safer on the streets. Getting into a shelter is not as easy as it may seem.

My parents almost abandoned me at age 15 and even at that age, my social worker had a very difficult time finding a shelter that would take me.

Now having said that, I believe the solution to this problem is not to give money on the streets but to give money to the shelters to improve them.

I recognize the problem, I just have a different preferred course of action than others in this thread.

Shelters give out food and there is no danger in going to one for that reason, even if you don't want to sleep there. But even with that said...

Theft and rape occur outside of shelters as well. I find it hard to believe that sleeping on a street is safer than sleeping in a shelter.

The only things the homeless can buy with pocket change are food and booze. So...stopping the handouts will not allow them to buy booze, and they can get food at soup kitchens/shelters.

I know this....the more you subsidize something, the more of it you get. Giving people money so that their homeless lives are easier = more homeless people with easier lives. (NOTE-I am not saying the homeless have it easy...just that making it easier to be homeless means you'll wind up with more homeless people).

Instead, finding ways to get people off the streets should be the solution, and that is best done through charities that both feed the homeless AND encourage them to get jobs, get off the streets, etc.

I will give money to someone who obviously can't work...but if they're able-bodied...nuh-uh.

Lysondra
08-18-2008, 08:20 AM
Sometimes if I'm in a good mood. Sometimes they can be very ungrateful and not even say thanks. Some are prob not even homeless.

However one night while walking towards work a guy asked me for money and i gave him some and that night I made the most money I've ever made stripping. I put it down to good karma.

I have money and can afford to so why not. That change is not gonna do much for me.

Remember when I gave to that homeless guy on the street like seven dollars in change when he had seventy cents and 20 minutes later he came up to me AGAIN with seventy cents in his hand and asked for change??!

Pissed me off.

But I still donate to the homeless. If all else fails, I take them to McDonalds.

NewMoon
08-18-2008, 08:22 AM
Theft and rape occur outside of shelters as well. I find it hard to believe that sleeping on a street is safer than sleeping in a shelter.

The only things the homeless can buy with pocket change are food and booze. So...stopping the handouts will not allow them to buy booze, and they can get food at soup kitchens/shelters. I'm just playing devil's advocate here but.....

Since MANY shelters are full, people on the streets will ask for the $25 it costs to get into a hostel for the night. Could definitely be legit.

ExoticEngineer
08-18-2008, 08:22 AM
Depending on your locality, many shelters (if they aren't already overcrowded) are plagued with theft, violence, rape, ect. Many feel safer on the streets. Getting into a shelter is not as easy as it may seem.

My parents almost abandoned me at age 15 and even at that age, my social worker had a very difficult time finding a shelter that would take me.

Now having said that, I believe the solution to this problem is not to give money on the streets but to give money to the shelters to improve them.

I recognize the problem, I just have a different preferred course of action than others in this thread.

I think the most important thing here is the action itself. So what if one person gives directly with change or whatever, and another person gives by donation. Action, help, a thought towards the problem at all is the important thing. Right?

Jenny
08-18-2008, 08:48 AM
The homeless can get immediate help at a shelter!!!! IF they need to get thru the day, have them go to a shelter. There is food there.
This is just completely out of touch with the reality of shelters and soup kitchens. As in - it is not accurate. Shelters do not have the resources to feed every homeless person in a city. That is precisely why people like New Moon prefer to donate to them - to improve institutions.


If 40 people give a homeless person an average of 75 cents every day, that person now has $28 a day. While far from extravagant, I bet I could pool that with 2-3 other homeless people and afford enough food to live in plus some really cheap hooch to feed my alcoholism. Woo! Yeah, let's keep feeding the problem with feel-good pocket change!
A) Most homeless people are lucky to clear $10 a day. Panhandling is not the get-rich-quick scheme some people think it is.
B) You can't cure alcoholism through general deprivation. And you might keep in mind that people do not choose to be addicts.


OK getting off the sarcasm...if donating to homeless shelters/charities is not a useful way of helping the homeless, then you're telling me that giving them your pocket change is? Really?
I didn't say it wasn't useful. I said that institution building isn't a substitute for immediate relief. That is - that giving money directly to homeless people is important, not just to the salvation army.

Why do you hate the homeless so much? On every homeless thread you are right there arguing how much they are dying to be homeless and how any compassion toward them is a waste of time and how evil they are. It's kind of weird. Do they make you feel bad about yourself - like uncompassionate - because you don't disperse change? Like I cannot figure out any reason why someone in your position should have such hostility to these people.

jaizaine
08-18-2008, 08:51 AM
Remember when I gave to that homeless guy on the street like seven dollars in change when he had seventy cents and 20 minutes later he came up to me AGAIN with seventy cents in his hand and asked for change??!

Pissed me off.

But I still donate to the homeless. If all else fails, I take them to McDonalds.

yes!!! LOL.
should have saved it for the peeps j/k LOL

Lexi
08-18-2008, 08:56 AM
.......

grindonme
08-18-2008, 10:08 AM
Argh....two shining examples of scam artists that make me leery of helping homeless....

1.) Man standing on the corner in the more upscale part of town. Fine, I've seen plenty of them around. At least they don't make it totally obvious whether or not they are faking. But this guy was glaringly obvious. Decent jeans, nice clean blue button down shirt, clean baseball cap, and trimmed hair, clean shaven.....holding a standard battered cardboard sign asking for spare change. Oh come on. So fucking obvious.

2.) Me alone at the end of the WalMart parking lot, greasy looking guy walks right up behind me and says "Do you have 50 cents? My car broke down around the corner...." and I quickly say no. Come on, do you know how often I hear the whole 'my car broke down AROUND THE CORNER'.And how the fuck is 50 cents going to fix your broken car? Right. ::) At least change your standard line.

I just don't trust any of them anymore because a big chunk of them want to scam.

Yeah i've run into my fair share of scam artists too,

guy comes running up to my car at a stop light with a plastic gas can, asks for money and a RIDE to the gas station because he ran out of gas, i'd seen the guy before so i knew for one he didn't even own a car and i knew if i gave him a ride to the gas station i probably wouldn't either

If you've ever lived in Atlanta you know the homeless population is no joke they try all kinds of scams to get money from you. Some usually sit around the pay to park places evening and weekends and try to get you to give them the money instead of putting it in the meter saying that the people never check during those times but they'll watch your car for you for a couple of dollars.

Kalligirl
08-18-2008, 10:15 AM
this topic is tooooooo vague for me to respond to

doc-catfish
08-18-2008, 11:01 AM
B) You can't cure alcoholism through general deprivation. And you might keep in mind that people do not choose to be addicts.
No, but people more often than not do choose to engage in the behaviors that lead to their addictions in the first place.


I didn't say it wasn't useful. I said that institution building isn't a substitute for immediate relief. That is - that giving money directly to homeless people is important, not just to the salvation army.
If money given to a homeless person directly goes towards tiding them over with necessities until they can get back on their feet, then its relief. If it goes towards that homeless person's next bottle of hooch or instills a "why work for it, when I can beg" mentality in his head, then I don't see where its doing that person any help.


Why do you hate the homeless so much? On every homeless thread you are right there arguing how much they are dying to be homeless and how any compassion toward them is a waste of time and how evil they are. It's kind of weird. Do they make you feel bad about yourself - like uncompassionate - because you don't disperse change? Like I cannot figure out any reason why someone in your position should have such hostility to these people.
He doesn't hate the homeless. Nobody in this thread being critical the "give to the homeless directly or your selfish" mantra hates the homeless.

We hate this imbecilic notion thats been put into people's heads that the blame for the whole homeless problem lies squarely on establishment oppression, that personal responsibility has absolutely no bearing on whether we have a roof over our heads or not, and that those of us who do for some reason have to feel guilt ridden about that.

There's a strange irony in you using the word "uncommpassionate". I mean, I don't think its particularly compassionate to enable behavior that might accelerate someone's destruction when you know that it very well might, nor do I see it as uncompassionate to refuse to enable said behavior.

I mean, help the homeless however you wish, but as far as return on investment goes, giving them "immediate relief" IMHO doesn't provide very good bang for the buck when it comes to getting these folks off skid row, and getting them whatever rehabilitation they need to stay off.

Jenny
08-18-2008, 11:59 AM
No, but people more often than not do choose to engage in the behaviors that lead to their addictions in the first place.
Not a particularly useful way to look at the treatment of addiction. If you go around just telling people that it's their own fault they are addicts and to just snap out of it - you will not get good results even with wealthier classes. There is a very good reason that successful treatment of addiction treats it as an illness. Yes - people make mistakes - some even make (duh duh duh!) avoidable mistakes regarding substances. You are very fortunate that your mistakes have not exacted from you the penalties their mistakes exact from them.


If money given to a homeless person directly goes towards tiding them over with necessities until they can get back on their feet, then its relief. If it goes towards that homeless person's next bottle of hooch or instills a "why work for it, when I can beg" mentality in his head, then I don't see where its doing that person any help.
Well because a) relief of an addiction is still relief. An addict crashing out without support - that is not a pretty picture and can in fact be dangerous. B) "Why work when I can beg"? How ridiculously simplistic. Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a homeless person to "get back on their feet" and how long that can take? Getting an apartment or a job if your current address is non-existant or a shelter? I kind of wonder where all you people are living that you have such a wrong idea of what it means to be homeless. Have you ever even met a homeless person? How about an addicted person? It is not easier being them than you; this idea that they are just too lazy to live your life is just wrong.


He doesn't hate the homeless. Nobody in this thread being critical the "give to the homeless directly or your selfish" mantra hates the homeless.
I actually think that is an absurd mischaracterization of what has been said here. And I disagree. I think some people in this thread are clearly very hostile towards the homeless, and I've read his thoughts about the homeless in other threads.


We hate this imbecilic notion thats been put into people's heads that the blame for the whole homeless problem lies squarely on establishment oppression, that personal responsibility has absolutely no bearing on whether we have a roof over our heads or not, and that those of us who do for some reason have to feel guilt ridden about that.
What a ridiculous over simplification. Have you never heard the expression "there but for the grace of god go I?" One need not be guilt-ridden for that; working class and working-poor people, especially in cities without rent control, can spend over 3/4 of their income on rent. What happens when they lose jobs and have nowhere to go? And if you don't think that there are institutional problems that create and contribute to a homelessness problem - then do you give to any establishment at all? And if so - why?


There's a strange irony in you using the word "uncommpassionate". I mean, I don't think its particularly compassionate to enable behavior that might accelerate someone's destruction when you know that it very well might, nor do I see it as uncompassionate to refuse to enable said behavior.
Again - that is assuming that giving to panhandlers in "enabling" anything or that not giving to panhandlers "disenables" them in some way. Actually I think you are misusing the phrase "enabling" here. Honestly I have a hard time believing either of you look at a homeless person on the street and thing "I just care too much about you and your future to give you this 75 cents." It just doesn't mesh with your other characterizations - like you obviously think that they are just lazy and choose to be homeless and choose to be addicts rather than pull up their socks and makes something of themselves like you. It sounds like a rationalization. Which actually relates back to the hostility; I mean, I don't feel the need to rationalize when I don't give change. I don't have it, I don't have it convenient or I just plain don't feel like it - I feel, that day, like I might need my change. That's why I wonder if all this hositility and rationalization about how you are really hurting someone by giving them your pocket change is because on some level you are guilt ridden.


I mean, help the homeless however you wish, but as far as return on investment goes, giving them "immediate relief" IMHO doesn't provide very good bang for the buck when it comes to getting these folks off skid row, and getting them whatever rehabilitation they need to stay off.
No. That is not what it is meant for. It is to buy an immediate necessity or part thereof for that day. Because institution building without immediate relief will just you a lot of extremely sick and dead homeless people. They need both.

Andygirl
08-18-2008, 12:08 PM
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0671036548/ref=sib_dp_ptu#reader-link

hardkandee
08-18-2008, 12:30 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=MaZvePO2LwAC&dq=Another+bullshit+night+in+Suck+City+:+a+memoir&pg=PP1&ots=arpLINYq1N&sig=EEUEJ8kNAY_-XfSPNqeN2ZNqezM&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPP1,M1

Mr Hyde
08-18-2008, 01:17 PM
This is just completely out of touch with the reality of shelters and soup kitchens. As in - it is not accurate. Shelters do not have the resources to feed every homeless person in a city. That is precisely why people like New Moon prefer to donate to them - to improve institutions.

A) Most homeless people are lucky to clear $10 a day. Panhandling is not the get-rich-quick scheme some people think it is.
B) You can't cure alcoholism through general deprivation. And you might keep in mind that people do not choose to be addicts.


I didn't say it wasn't useful. I said that institution building isn't a substitute for immediate relief. That is - that giving money directly to homeless people is important, not just to the salvation army.

Why do you hate the homeless so much? On every homeless thread you are right there arguing how much they are dying to be homeless and how any compassion toward them is a waste of time and how evil they are. It's kind of weird. Do they make you feel bad about yourself - like uncompassionate - because you don't disperse change? Like I cannot figure out any reason why someone in your position should have such hostility to these people.

I hate the point by point approach to response, so I'll respond in whole down, here, if that's ok...

How do you know what panhandlers make in a day? If you beg for, say, 8 hours a day, and in those 8 hours 3 people give you 50 cents each, that's 12 bucks right there, and that's a low estimate. I'd be willing to bet that a typical beggar probably makes closer to 20-25 bucks a day. Rich? I never said it was a path to riches. What it is, is a path to being able to subsist and feed a booze habit without having any responsibility.

Do you know that shelters don't have the resources to feed all the homeless? Not that I don't believe you, but that's easy to just say...how do you know this? I volunteered at a shelter once in college (albeit 20 years ago), and the shelter (it was in Tallahassee) had plenty of food. In fact, they fed the people some pretty decent damn food...meat, fruit, even muffins. It wasn't soup and bread, that's for sure.

And you're right, you can't cure alcoholism by JUST deprivation...but it's a part of the cure. If you can't drink, you can't get drunk...and if you can't drink AND you go to a homeless shelter that has alcohol programs and that has been funded by people that give money to it (instead of just sticking a buck into a grimy palm), then guess what? You have a start toward helping people get better.

I don't hate the homeless...I hate sloth, and I hate it when people choose to live off of society and drag it down rather than contribute to it. I hate when some grimy street urchin who is utterly capable of working tries a lame line on me like "hey, can you give me 37 cents so I can get my cell phone from the store over? It's in hock and I need to call my kids and tell them I'm coming to get them (yes, this was a line used on me)." I hate it that our society thinks it's better to give a man a fish than to teach him how to fish.

And I am firmly of the belief that most homeless is homelessness by choice.

Single mom sleeping in her car with her kids? Rare.

Bum who doesn't want to work but would rather sit on a street corner with a sign that says "will work for beer?" That's your homeless.

Why do you want to subsidize this by giving them money, rather than do real things to really solve the problem?

Jay Zeno
08-18-2008, 01:36 PM
It's quite acceptable to say, "That poor person could use some help," and give help.

It's quite logical to feel, "I cannot improve a bad situation by contributing to it," and not contributing to it.

I would hesitate to make judgment calls on either of those. Both those conclusions are easily arrived at.

You don't cure addiction by deprivation. You don't cure it by supplying it, either. That particular problem goes well beyond what pocket change, or withholding it, will do.

Personally, I feel that most of the panhandlers I've encountered are not homeless but, well, plain ol' panhandlers, and no, I do not care to encourage them by making their panhandling successful. I've gone to homeless shelters and helped out. I generally have not given to panhandlers**. Make all the moral judgments you guys care to out of those two things.



**I have, on occasion, given food to "will work for food" types and gotten snarled at. I just include that for humor value. It proves nothing on a society-wide basis.

doc-catfish
08-18-2008, 01:46 PM
Not a particularly useful way to look at the treatment of addiction. If you go around just telling people that it's their own fault they are addicts and to just snap out of it - you will not get good results even with wealthier classes. There is a very good reason that successful treatment of addiction treats it as an illness. Yes - people make mistakes - some even make (duh duh duh!) avoidable mistakes regarding substances. You are very fortunate that your mistakes have not exacted from you the penalties their mistakes exact from them.


Well because a) relief of an addiction is still relief. An addict crashing out without support - that is not a pretty picture and can in fact be dangerous. B) "Why work when I can beg"? How ridiculously simplistic. Do you have any idea how difficult it is for a homeless person to "get back on their feet" and how long that can take? Getting an apartment or a job if your current address is non-existant or a shelter? I kind of wonder where all you people are living that you have such a wrong idea of what it means to be homeless. Have you ever even met a homeless person? How about an addicted person? It is not easier being them than you; this idea that they are just too lazy to live your life is just wrong.

I actually think that is an absurd mischaracterization of what has been said here. And I disagree. I think some people in this thread are clearly very hostile towards the homeless, and I've read his thoughts about the homeless in other threads.

What a ridiculous over simplification. Have you never heard the expression "there but for the grace of god go I?" One need not be guilt-ridden for that; working class and working-poor people, especially in cities without rent control, can spend over 3/4 of their income on rent. What happens when they lose jobs and have nowhere to go? And if you don't think that there are institutional problems that create and contribute to a homelessness problem - then do you give to any establishment at all? And if so - why?


Again - that is assuming that giving to panhandlers in "enabling" anything or that not giving to panhandlers "disenables" them in some way. Actually I think you are misusing the phrase "enabling" here. Honestly I have a hard time believing either of you look at a homeless person on the street and thing "I just care too much about you and your future to give you this 75 cents." It just doesn't mesh with your other characterizations - like you obviously think that they are just lazy and choose to be homeless and choose to be addicts rather than pull up their socks and makes something of themselves like you. It sounds like a rationalization. Which actually relates back to the hostility; I mean, I don't feel the need to rationalize when I don't give change. I don't have it, I don't have it convenient or I just plain don't feel like it - I feel, that day, like I might need my change. That's why I wonder if all this hositility and rationalization about how you are really hurting someone by giving them your pocket change is because on some level you are guilt ridden.


No. That is not what it is meant for. It is to buy an immediate necessity or part thereof for that day. Because institution building without immediate relief will just you a lot of extremely sick and dead homeless people. They need both.

Ehh, sorry Jenny. I think you're mostly wrong on this matter and as much as I'd like to agree with you on your sunny "up the man" omnipotent view of the world, I just can't. Well just have to call a spade a spade on this.
:)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/STChangeling.jpg

Andygirl
08-18-2008, 01:58 PM
And I am firmly of the belief that most homeless is homelessness by choice.

I can't even argue with this kind of ignorance. Have you studied the facts about homelessness? Have you ever known any homeless people? What exactly are you basing your opinion on? Do facts play into it at all? Because it really seems like you are basing your whole opinion on just a few firsthand incidents. If you can't be bothered to read about it or openminded enough to admit that you might not know what you're talking about then there's no point in continuing this discussion.

VegasPrincess
08-18-2008, 02:31 PM
The thing about food kitchens and shelters...

Do you know where one is in your neighborhood? I dont. Because there isnt one. There are some on the North Side, but those are about 20 miles away...Plus its a very rough area. I think people in my hood would rather be comfortably homeless here than in that area.

I'm just saying its not easy, and most homeless are not thinking logically. They cant get welfare or anything bc they dont have an address....Its sad.

It isnt so simple as showing up somewhere and saying I'm homeless take care of me. There arent enough beds....It just doesnt work that way. I remember always seeing this old lady who lived under that bridge when you come off Sahara Avenue in Vegas...she definitely lived there. That was the exit I took to work. We always stopped and gave her food and money.

Jenny
08-18-2008, 03:10 PM
How do you know what panhandlers make in a day?
Because I know panhandlers. I know - actual human beings, capable of speech. Shocking, I know.


Do you know that shelters don't have the resources to feed all the homeless? Not that I don't believe you, but that's easy to just say...how do you know this?
Because I know the homeless people in my neighbourhood, volunteer a few times a year at a mission near my house and have worked with legal clinics that do work with shelters and homeless.


I volunteered at a shelter once in college (albeit 20 years ago)
Oh. Well then. Volunteering once at a shelter 20 years ago - that certainly gives you the karma credits to despise homeless people. You have sneered at the plight of homeless people repeatedly in this thread; you clearly have some hostility.


And you're right, you can't cure alcoholism by JUST deprivation...but it's a part of the cure.
No it's not. I thought it was actually fairly well known that you can't force people out of addiction by deprivation. If you could, frankly, addiction would be much easier to solve. You have to help people want to change.


If you can't drink, you can't get drunk...and if you can't drink AND you go to a homeless shelter that has alcohol programs and that has been funded by people that give money to it (instead of just sticking a buck into a grimy palm), then guess what? You have a start toward helping people get better.
Sure. And institutional support is great and important and when shelters and rehab centers have space for every homeless person to live safely, giving directly to the homeless will no longer be necessary. Until then, it still is.


I don't hate the homeless...I hate sloth, and I hate it when people choose to live off of society and drag it down rather than contribute to it.
Oh. I can see that you don't hate the homeless, following your statement with a caveat like that.


I hate it that our society thinks it's better to give a man a fish than to teach him how to fish.
This is such a stupid phrase. Or the phrase is not stupid, but it can be put to stupid uses. Helping someone get off the streets and potentially get clean is a lot more complicated than fishing. You can teach someone to fish in an afternoon; you can't get someone a home, a job, training and drug rehab in an afternoon, yet he or she is hungry that afternoon too.


Single mom sleeping in her car with her kids? Rare.
No it's not. But I almost envy your blindness to the world.


Why do you want to subsidize this by giving them money, rather than do real things to really solve the problem?
As I said - it's isn't either/or. I would like to solve the underlying problem while relieving the symptoms. And frankly - the solution to homelessness - do you even understand how big a project that is? It's not something that could be set up by next week.

Doc - I have no idea what you are talking about.

Jenny
08-18-2008, 03:14 PM
Jay - I've never had anyone get angry at me for giving them food; like ever. Not even once. I used to give out the remains of catering at my school and before that, my work. People always accepted and said "thank you". I mean, even if they didn't actually want it, they always know someone who would.

ExoticEngineer
08-18-2008, 03:51 PM
It is amazing to me that a group of people can argue and debate and get angry over who's form of "help" is best. Especially when the desired end result is the same on all parts.

It reminds me of something....what is it....can't quite put my finger on it....

Oh well...carry on. ;D

TigersMilk
08-18-2008, 03:58 PM
George Carlin has something to say about homeless people:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSRCjG-VLk

SnakeBabe
08-18-2008, 04:06 PM
Never give money to homeless people. Always give money to organizations that help the homeless.

^^^Those are the words I live by.

Agreed.