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knp001
09-10-2008, 09:54 PM
hmmm...... I work in a reasonably heavy contact club. Guys can touch anything except pussy and mouth including tits, ass, legs, stomach, ect. I rub my body all over the guys. It's just the norm at my club and I'm used to it.

I don't really see myself as a prostitute, though. Not that I would have a problem with the label (I hold nothing against prostitutes) but I don't see it.

same at my cub- but did you start out like that? I mean, I just started and my first night, strangers have their hands everywhere but my kitty...it's a little strange. So did you work up to it, or just jump right in and let them touch? (sorry for the threadjack)

revente305
09-10-2008, 10:11 PM
well i find that most of the girls at my fav club touch me alot more then i touch them even when i go to the stage just to give them a few bucks so they dont dance a whole swet for nothing they wrap a leg around my head and pull me to them i never really had a problem with uncontralable urges to touch the dancers. i would image its partly whats expected from all the guy talk they do with there friends maybe one of their friends exagerated about a girl so his friend thinks its perfectly ok.

charlie61
09-10-2008, 10:37 PM
^^ Haha I didn't start this thread as a confessional or chance to make excuses. :)

I was looking for the motivating factors behind why guys touch dancers (or want to touch them).

So am I correct in assuming that you touch them because you believe they want to be touched by you specifically? (No sarcasm in that statement, seriously--it is possible that this is true...)

JPremium
09-11-2008, 02:57 AM
Because I'm drunk ;)

UtahMike
09-11-2008, 07:36 AM
I went to a substitute teaching job yesterday that I didn't particularly enjoy. It wasn't unpleasant, but it was boring, because all I had to do was take attendance. The students all knew what to do and did it without any help or advice from me. Since there was nothing to do, it was no fun for me. But it was fun to think that I was making money.

I suspect that a dancer feels this way if/when I touch her. She does not enjoy the touch, but she enjoys thinking that by being touched she is making money. I'm happy to pay her money for the privilege.

charlie61
09-11-2008, 01:16 PM
^^

Very interesting!! That's a perspective I hadn't thought of before...

I like it. :)

occasional visitor
09-11-2008, 06:18 PM
We touch them because we like how women feel. Duh.

charlie61
09-11-2008, 09:56 PM
We touch them because we like how women feel. Duh.

...No comment.

lildreamer316
09-11-2008, 11:12 PM
Well...

Chicken grilled slow is delicious. The chickens don't want to be eaten.

If what you want is a deep emotional relationship with a chicken, then yes it matters that they are responding too.

If what you want is to enjoy how they taste cooked slow and seasoned, it is irrelevant if the chicken is into it.

Most guys aren't going to have a deep emotional relationship with strippers. In fact that is the very opposite of what strippers say they want. To some degree there is some cake eating and having it too going on.

On the one hand, objectify me ... it is not real, I don't like you, face the facts, it is just a fantasy, I just want your money for this, that is all!

On the other hand, how can you enjoy this when you know as a human I don't feel reciprocal feelings?

But that is us humans. We do this without thinking. Shift POV as it suits us, not because it is logically consistent from a neutral objective POV, but because it is in our own best interest in the moment.

Again, if many customers (or people in general) are doing something, it really does make sense. If someone can't see why, it is not because everyone else is illogical. It is probably because it would not be complimentary to the POV they want to see the situation from.


Okay. There are soooooooooooo many things on this thread I want to reply to, but I really did not want to get too far OT. But I just absofrigginlutely have to say something here.

Let me first say that I, as a dancer, actually DO like what I do. I like dancing. I like making a guy happy. I also see this as a customer service job. It makes me happy to make you happy. Seriously. It is part of one of my joys in life that I found a job where I can make people happy, dance, get semi-naked, feel desired, usually have a decent coversation/learn something, AND make my own schedule. I am exchanging a service for money. That is a service job. Anyone who does not understand this is fooling themselves.

In other words, I am not the " I don't like you and all I want is your money" type. I happen to do this job because I like people generally, and I like men. If I were alive in a different century I probably would have been a courtesan, or equivalent.

So I also happen to see customers as humans. I am willing to bet that I see them a lot more humanly ( is that a word? lol) than their wives or bosses do. I try to treat them as another human being. I expect the same from them.

I don't expect them to fall in love with me. I don't expect them to even act completely polite all the time with me..they are here to relax and not follow every single social norm imposed usually. But you, and others in this thread, are saying that some men who touch are equating strippers with : chicken, crab legs, a sailboat, etc. I'm sorry, but I do expect as part of basic human nature(read: evoloutionary development) for a man to remember that I am actually human and not a chicken. I am not trying to have my cake and eat it too. I am trying to do something I enjoy for someone who appreciates it, and get paid for it (see sig line). Men can't complain that women don't think they have brains (upthread) and then complain when we don't understand why they act like they are not using anything but the basest brain functions. It is not my fault that there are strippers that don't like what they do. Don't assume that I am one of them and we will be just fine.

Let me reiterate: I don't hate customers. I do not hate men. I never have. I love my job.

Now, I must apologize for adding to a thread that the OP already seems to regret starting/having it go this far and in this direction. I am seriously thinking about starting a different thread to discuss some of the issues raised here, but I honestly wouldn't know where to put it.

Again, sorry for the somewhat thread jack. I will keep it to myself now.

lildreamer316
09-11-2008, 11:20 PM
I go back to the lack of accountability as the explanation for that. A lot of guys make the assumption that it's permitted because there's no authoritative force telling them they can't and there are no consequences for doing so. Because club management is not consistent in its enforcement, this mindset persists and even grows.


Ok, I lied, because I have to say this:

I FUCKIN LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!

Truer words and all that. This would solve 85-90% of the problems mentioned in the situations we usually find ourselves in. Simply and easily.

charlie61
09-11-2008, 11:22 PM
^^

I love my job, I love humans, I love making people happy. I'm right there with ya!

I've never worked at a club that allowed any contact, so I honestly don't know how I'd feel about being touched by my customers--I could love it, I could hate it. I love that you added that perspective, though. I started this thread with the general theory (which was fueled by the pinks' consistently negative opinions of being touched--expressed throughout SW history) that the women being touched tend to be either neutral or negative about the experience. But you're absolutely right--it could be a positive experience for everyone!

UtahMike made a cool point up there that kind of relates to that...

So thank you for your input! :) And feel free to start any threads related to this topic--it's pretty multifaceted...despite the few "DUH" comments it has gotten.

bsteve
09-13-2008, 09:23 PM
Ooh, I think that I finally understand your question, Charlie61! I think that I finally got it! :)

I believe that the reason that PLs have a difficulty understanding your query, is because the concept of "touching of another person" is very different to you from those of PLs.

From reading your postings, it appears to me that to you the main reason of why one ("toucher") would touch another ("touchee"), is generally for the touchee's benefit. A mother cuddles a baby to make the baby feel good. A dog owner pats a dog to reward the dog. A cat owner scratches a cat's fur to make the cat feel better. A husband gives a massage to his wife after a long day at her work to make her relaxed. All of these touches are primarily for the benefit of the touchee. Yes, the toucher get benefit from the touching as well -- the toucher is happy that he can make the touchee feel good. The mother is happy to sooth her baby with her touch; the cat owner is satisfied when the cat purrs in response to his touching, the husband is happy to have his wife enjoy the massage. In this concept of "touching of another", the primary motivation is make the touchee feel good, with a secondary motivation to make the toucher feel good in knowing that the touchee feels good.

Under this concept of "touching of another", your question is very valid: if a dancer does not enjoy being touched, why would a customer touch a dancer? If there is no primary motivation, how can the customer derive the secondary motivation?

The answer, charlie61, is that this concept of "touching of another" is NOT applicable to this situation. What customers are experiencing in touching a dancer is a totally different kind of pleasurable touching. This is the kind of touching that a proud car owner does when he glides his hand along the top of the hood of his car after he put several wax coats on it; or a capenter touches his latest project after he used a 250-grit sand paper to smooth it out; or an clothes shopper when she feels an angora sweater, a supple leather jacket, or a satin 200-count sheets. If you ever browsed a clothing store and were drawn to a blouse because how it felt against your skin, or bought shoes because how they feel on your legs, you understand what I am talking about. The same way as you enjoy touching fabric, leather, or a hood of a car, so too do customers enjoy touching dancers, except amplified about 100-fold.

charlie61
09-13-2008, 09:41 PM
^^^ Haha yes! You do understand it now! (Lol at first I thought you were being facetious with that post...it sounded really really enthusiastic).

It seems...odd to me that one could try to compare a human-human interaction with touching a car though. There you're implying some sort of caring, proud dynamic. I don't really understand what you mean, I don't think.

ETA: I guess your comparison to the human urge to want to touch fabric makes sense to me. I actually really relate to that--I reach out and touch things all of the time that I don't even necessarily want to buy. Interesting...

Oh. And thank you for stating my question in such a cool way! You did a much better job than I did. I like your examples. You really got at the root of my question, and applied it to human psychology. Me likes it a lot. :)

llamagirl
09-13-2008, 10:46 PM
Okay. I swear I'm not dense. But I was wondering the other day why it is that customers (most of them) want to touch the dancers.

So, to the blues out there-->

If you have desired to (or have acted upon the desire to) touch a stripper, then why is this?

Is it purely for your own enjoyment of our bodies--with the hope that the stripper is merely a neutral, physically-present being? (total objectification)
Is it because you think that you and the stripper would both enjoy mutual touching?
Is the customer deluded into thinking that the stripper would get off on it? (not that this isn't somewhat understandable--strippers can be very good actresses)
Does the customer honestly not give a shit whether or not the girl would enjoy being touched?

I'm sure the answers vary. But, as a stripper, it's so obvious to me that the typical, no-extras stripper wouldn't be turned on by random guys touching her...so why do (the majority of) patrons seem to think think that strippers want contact?

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. Enlighten me! Even if you aren't one of the deluded grabby patrons, bless me with your insight into others' actions.

Honestly, from my experience it seems that most men actually think the dancer enjoys being touched by him. Some even go as far as to constantly ask "does that feel good?" No you creep, it doesnt, if it did you wouldn't be paying for it so stop asking me. The super grabby guys I think do it because its the only way they could touch a woman otherwise because they are so undesirable that no woman would let them touch it for free. These are the guys who will fondle your breasts like there is no tomorrow as if its their last chance ever to touch a woman and they need to take advantage of it. I think what is going through their heads is "its their job to be fondled, so they dont mind" Morons.

llamagirl
09-13-2008, 10:53 PM
^^
House keeps half so for an hour they get $40.

There is also one real dive place where sex is $30 so their cut is $15.

I find out this from one of our costume sellers as they also sell to brothels. Her mother worked as a prostitute too.

wow, why would anyone be a hooker for that cheap??? especially when you can make 10 bucks more for doing a lot less in a strip club and 15 bucks? you can make that in an hour of working at an office!

llamagirl
09-13-2008, 11:15 PM
I'm just wondering what the motivation behind (I guess) any kind of dancer touching is.

I might just be wondering this because I'm a chick. But personally, I wouldn't want to go out and touch a stranger (even in places where it's allowed) unless I knew (or was convinced) that the other person was enjoying it. So when a patron touches a dancer (illegally or legally), I'm speculating as to why this is.

I enjoy touching people I'm dating, but it's not that pleasurable for me to run my hands up and down strangers' bodies. Maybe I'm crazy. Sorry if I'm not making myself clear...

I intended to just start a discussion about this general topic--which is why my OP wasn't in an outright Q/A form.

You probably wouldnt want to be touched, opr worse, grinded on, by a stranger either, so its difficult to relate to a customer who buys lap dances, because he does in fact want contact with a stranger, otherwise he would not buy a dance. Totally understandable, i even know a few guys who dont get lap dances because they think its weird to be touched by a stranger, but obviously the guys who buy lap dances dont think its weird, and like somoene else said, its instinct. It just feels ackward to have your hands at your sides as for guys who grab boobs and such, i stand by what i said above about them- desperation and delusions

grindonme
09-14-2008, 11:22 AM
Honestly, from my experience it seems that most men actually think the dancer enjoys being touched by him. Some even go as far as to constantly ask "does that feel good?" No you creep, it doesnt, if it did you wouldn't be paying for it so stop asking me. The super grabby guys I think do it because its the only way they could touch a woman otherwise because they are so undesirable that no woman would let them touch it for free. These are the guys who will fondle your breasts like there is no tomorrow as if its their last chance ever to touch a woman and they need to take advantage of it. I think what is going through their heads is "its their job to be fondled, so they dont mind" Morons.

Make a thread asking women do they like the way their partner squeezes their breast and see what the responses will be. Go back and read bsteve quotes in this thread, those are the answers to this question

charlie61
09-14-2008, 12:50 PM
^^ Word.

UV69
09-14-2008, 06:40 PM
Ofcourse if they are attracted and turned on they want to touch the dancer and as a dancer myself my job is to make them want it, but say no pay me for that desire and let me tease you all your money for it.

If my customer didn't want me sexually then I wouldn't make much money.

and as a customer myself I go in wanting to be made to want a dancer knowing that it's a tease where I'm going to want what I can't touch--well actaully me being me manytimes they don't play by the rules and they will actaully give in to my desires or thier own and then I feel slightly cheated as a customer becuz I paid to be teased not to be pelased or to do the pleasing still ofcourse it's not like I didn't want it so soemtimes taht is really good to.

I do know however if a dancer puts it in my face it's very hard for me not to say fuck the no touching rule becuz somethings are just knee jerk reactions to that kind of teasing for me. Ofcourse still it's not like I do anything more then tease them back for that, but still if they want to play pass the lines I'm ofcourse going to play back--that is why as a dancer I make all my lines real clear with my custies and let them know where it's not going to go before I put or allow any of those ideas in thier heads.

Sophia_Ashley
09-15-2008, 01:54 PM
You know, I've danced for men that don't touch and I've said "Thank you for being a gentleman" and They say "Don't thank me, touching without permission isn't right"

So there you go. Some people don't care whether or not you give permission others do.

charlie61
09-15-2008, 02:47 PM
>_<

I'm so sick of people not taking the time to understand this thread and responding with random bits of common sense or "you're dumb" comments.

:gnasher: <---this is the "gnasher" smilie.

Sophia_Ashley
09-15-2008, 03:49 PM
.:weeping:

charlie61
09-16-2008, 05:01 AM
^^ Aww...I'm sorry. This thread has turned into a monster, and your answer just mirrored a lot of the other simplistic answers...hence my mini rant. Don't worry about it. I don't want to discourage people from answering or anything... :-[

I don't blame you if you just read the OP and rushed to answer, S_A. It's kind of a beast to read the whole thing!

Steve123
09-16-2008, 02:09 PM
It is hard to give a all-encompassing answer. There are Dancers who will guide your hands to the areas they want touched and there are times when I have initiated it. In the cases I initiated it is never without consent. "May I..." is the first question. The initial motivation is both cases is a combination of Alcohol lowering inhibitions (or Dancer actions) interacting with basic instinctual desires when a "potential mate" is in front of you. Intellect always intercedes though. Thus the question "May I?"

As far as why, the action is based on that libidinal wiring. In this case, it gets hijacked by the false situation (lapdance) into thinking this is a willing partner and you want to make them feel pleasure in return for the pleasure they are imparting. Afterwards, I always return to an understanding of the artificial nature of the situation, but in the moment I lose that.

With that said, most lapdances don't involve any touching at all and are simply entertaining due to the teasing of the previously mentioned impulses. My 2 Cents.

TheSexKitten
09-16-2008, 03:31 PM
holy crap the question still hasn't been answered? You writing your thesis on this? ;D

charlie61
09-16-2008, 04:04 PM
^^ Haha...the question is complicated! If it were simple, it would've been a one page thread. It's multifaceted and highly subjective.

arctic717
09-17-2008, 03:41 AM
The answer is simple- it's 4 million years of evolution.

The below is pretty much irrevelant, it's part of our reptilian brain. The desire for sex/reproduction is pretty much implanted. Some of us can control the impulse better than others, but the desire is part of evolution and implanted within us, that desire does not originate from our cognitive mind.


Is it purely for your own enjoyment of our bodies--with the hope that the stripper is merely a neutral, physically-present being? (total objectification)
Is it because you think that you and the stripper would both enjoy mutual touching?
Is the customer deluded into thinking that the stripper would get off on it? (not that this isn't somewhat understandable--strippers can be very good actresses)
Does the customer honestly not give a shit whether or not the girl would enjoy being touched?

charlie61
09-17-2008, 08:01 AM
^^ And some guys (in my experience) have no impulse at all, even though they're otherwise completely typical? Hm. Shrugs.

yoda57us
09-17-2008, 02:37 PM
^^ And some guys (in my experience) have no impulse at all, even though they're otherwise completely typical? Hm. Shrugs.

You have to consider venue when you talk about how easy it may or may not be to control the "impulse" to touch a woman.

For years I went to a no contact club in "no contact" Massachusetts. I had never been anyplace where touching a stripper was an option and, for years, and through hundreds of stage sets and private dances I never had the impulse or even TRIED to touch a dancer.

Then, several years ago, I discovered high-contact Providence RI clubs...
Not only is contact allowed but it is encouraged. Hell, dancers will grab your hands and place them on their breasts. Needless to say the "impulse" to touch became heightened and almost automatic. When a dancer would start to dance for me my hands would go to her hips...and elsewhere...almost automatically.

Fast Forward to now...

My ATF dances at a Massachusetts club that while located in a "no touching" state, still allows some contact. I have known my ATF for years and I know what sort of contact SHE is comfortable with but when I get a dance from a newer girl I tend to be very conservative and let her take the lead regarding how much, if any, contact she is comfortable with.

It's really a case of apples to oranges a lot of the time. What men want to do, or expect to do, in a strip club is driven by a lot of factors not the least of which are the rules and regulations of dancer and of the venue.

charlie61
09-17-2008, 02:49 PM
^^ Good call--the desire to touch could be something that's triggered.

yoda57us
09-17-2008, 05:31 PM
^^ Good call--the desire to touch could be something that's triggered.

Well, for me the "desire" part is always there. Acting on it is tempered by the rules of the club and the boundaries of the lady involved.

charlie61
09-17-2008, 05:46 PM
^^^ Yeah...but I was comparing it to the fact that I've met guys (like my ex-SO--who had no reason to lie to me, as I made it obvious how non-judgmental I am about this issue) who were very anti-touching. Like...they might enjoy looking, but they wouldn't want to be touched by a stranger like that.

So I applied your suggestion--that it could be triggered. As in, they might not feel this way now, but if they went to a high-contact area, they might start desiring it.

bsteve
09-17-2008, 06:49 PM
Just to follow-up on what Yodda touched on...

Last week, instead of my "regular" SC (which is topless, no touching, club) I went to another club. It was a blue-collar (low cover, free bear, $1 tips) all-nude SC. I had a couple of LDs; I was blown away when I was told at the beginning of a LD that I can touch her anywhere (except for the boobs and the kitty).

Although I always have had the urge to touch, this time, when it was OK to touch, I was really uncomfortable. After reading this forum about how dancers hate to be touched, and after getting used to not touching any dancers at my regular club, I just could not bring myself to do it at first. It took me a while to get myself psyched enought to touch the dancers.

bsteve
09-17-2008, 06:50 PM
Well, for me the "desire" part is always there. Acting on it is tempered by the rules of the club and the boundaries of the lady involved.

Same with me.

charlie61
09-17-2008, 06:55 PM
Oh god! I'm sorry, bsteve. I feel like I ruined stripclubbing for you!

As someone mentioned up there, it's probable that lots of girls do enjoy being good at their jobs, and making sure that you're having a good time as they're being touched. I've never worked at a contact club, so I don't know how I'd feel about this. I started this thread with the assumption (based on my conversations with girls, and SW) that girls are either neutral about being touched or dislike it.

NewMoon
09-17-2008, 07:12 PM
same at my cub- but did you start out like that? I mean, I just started and my first night, strangers have their hands everywhere but my kitty...it's a little strange. So did you work up to it, or just jump right in and let them touch? (sorry for the threadjack)
I danced much more innocently when I began and initiated less contact. Tolerating the contact wasn't difficult for me but learning to dance defensive was.

mediocrity
09-18-2008, 04:32 PM
I went to a substitute teaching job yesterday that I didn't particularly enjoy. It wasn't unpleasant, but it was boring, because all I had to do was take attendance. The students all knew what to do and did it without any help or advice from me. Since there was nothing to do, it was no fun for me. But it was fun to think that I was making money.

I suspect that a dancer feels this way if/when I touch her. She does not enjoy the touch, but she enjoys thinking that by being touched she is making money. I'm happy to pay her money for the privilege.

I think this is a really great perspective. For me, I have never worked in a contact club really. As a self-proclaimed air dancer, I became very spoiled at my last club, because it was easy to sell dances, and contact was 100% not tolerated. I worked there for four years. I relocated this April. So right now, I am having a very difficult time accepting the fact that different dancers do different levels of contact, and I am competing with that.

As a matter of fact, part of me actually feels angry. Frequently I get customers who wants a dance, he will tell me "Well so-and-so did [insert something I am not comfortable with], why won't you?". Sorry dude, I'm different than her. But it also creates a standard that all the dancers, not just myself, need to conform to in order to make money.

An extreme example: One girl offers a handjob in VIP, one offers just great dancing. Ultimately, 90% of the time, who is going to be taken to VIP? All I ask for is some mild consistency and acknowledgement of individual limits.

On some level, I feel working in a contact club is ruining my perceptions. I have never had sensitive nipples, for example, but was neutral to having them touched. Now, after having so many people lunge at them with tongues and fingers (and lunge IS an accurate term), I want to retch when my boyfriend tries to do it, because I think of the smelly fat guy who I had to restrain last night, or the girl I saw essentially feeding her breast to a customer to suck on.

Some people will jump to the conclusion that I am not cut out for dancing, but I beg to differ. Dancing, sure. Take my clothes off? No problem. Rub my ass on you a bit? Hey I can deal with that. But fundamentally, treat me like a real human being, and just ASK.

yoda57us
09-18-2008, 07:51 PM
^^^ Yeah...but I was comparing it to the fact that I've met guys (like my ex-SO--who had no reason to lie to me, as I made it obvious how non-judgmental I am about this issue) who were very anti-touching. Like...they might enjoy looking, but they wouldn't want to be touched by a stranger like that.

So I applied your suggestion--that it could be triggered. As in, they might not feel this way now, but if they went to a high-contact area, they might start desiring it.

I can't really make a comparison between how I feel and how other customers might feel on this issue. Lol, the last thing I do is ask other guys about this stuff!

charlie61
09-18-2008, 07:53 PM
"Hey yo...so like...why do you touch strippers?"

Hahaha that would make for an awkward conversation.

bsteve
09-18-2008, 08:03 PM
"Hey yo...so like...why do you touch strippers?"

Hahaha that would make for an awkward conversation.


Uhm, I think that asking a guy who goes regularly why he likes to touch strippers would be like asking a guy who goes to a restaurant for lunch: "Hey, why do you eat food?" or asking a guy: "Hey, why do you breathe?" Not awkward -- just weird.

Most guys would answer that query with "Because I am not a homo". :)

charlie61
09-18-2008, 08:10 PM
^^ Whatchoo talkin bout? Gay boys love touching strippers! (really)

Golden_Rule
09-19-2008, 05:00 PM
>_<

I'm so sick of people not taking the time to understand this thread and responding with random bits of common sense or "you're dumb" comments.

:gnasher: <---this is the "gnasher" smilie.

Hey, I tried, but I could see where this was going so I bailed.

No way a guy on pink tries to answer one of these honestly to one of the few dancers who seems to have an interest in what we think [and thank you for being interested] and doesn't get his head handed to him.

Golden_Rule
09-19-2008, 05:25 PM
On some level, I feel working in a contact club is ruining my perceptions. I have never had sensitive nipples, for example, but was neutral to having them touched. Now, after having so many people lunge at them with tongues and fingers (and lunge IS an accurate term), I want to retch when my boyfriend tries to do it, because I think of the smelly fat guy who I had to restrain last night, or the girl I saw essentially feeding her breast to a customer to suck on.

I have long taken note of the phases many dancers go through from the point they start working to the point some time past the time the stop working.

It is not at all unsual for dancers to:

1) Come to detest men in general and guys who go to strip-clubs in particular.

2) Develope an Us against Them attitude where "us" in this question is dancers, not women, in particular.

3) Form bi-sexual and lesbian tendencies that grow out of the combination of this 'we are all sisters in this foxhole together' thinking combined with a total loss of respect and any desire to have sex with men. [well, the men they are meeting in strip-clubs anyway]

4) It is interesting to note that these bi-sexual and lesbian tendencies subside with the distance placed between them and stripping. So some time after they retire they tend to revert to what ever their actual sexuality was prior to stripping.

Anyway, I have no problem both understanding and accepting that a very large number of women who work in strip-clubs, who are taking my money to provide me with various forms of entertainment, have absolutely no like or respect for me for no other reason than that I am male and in a strip-club [though I do find it ironical that they would request that I like and respect them - that I do like and respect them doesn't keep me from noticing the irony present].

That doesn't mean I don't give them respect as human beings, and it certainly doesn't mean I don't immediately vote with my wallet if I don't get at least the same.

An actor on a stage doesn't have to like me or respect me to entertain me, but if s/he were to denounce me from the stage I'd pick my ass up out of the seat and head out to the box office to see the manager and demand my money back.

BTW, that doesn't mean that I don't totally appreciate the dancers who still think men are generally OK, though maybe just a tad simplistic and foolish - and it takes a VERY good actress to fool me as to which are which. As a customer I tend to give my money to the dancers who still like men first, and to the consummate professionals who may loath men but still give a performance worth the money second.

I appreciate value for my entertainment dollar [that doesn't make me a bad person, just an educated consumer].


Some people will jump to the conclusion that I am not cut out for dancing, but I beg to differ. Dancing, sure. Take my clothes off? No problem. Rub my ass on you a bit? Hey I can deal with that. But fundamentally, treat me like a real human being, and just ASK.

Couldn't agree with you more.

charlie61
09-19-2008, 05:41 PM
I have long taken note of the phases many dancers go through from the point they start working to the point some time past the time the stop working.

It is not at all unsual for dancers to:

1) Come to detest men in general and guys who go to strip-clubs in particular.

2) Develope an Us against Them attitude where "us" in this question is dancers, not women, in particular.

3) Form bi-sexual and lesbian tendencies that grow out of the combination of this 'we are all sisters in this foxhole together' thinking combined with a total loss of respect and any desire to have sex with men. [well, the men they are meeting in strip-clubs anyway]

4) It is interesting to note that these bi-sexual and lesbian tendencies subside with the distance placed between them and stripping. So some time after they retire they tend to revert to what ever their actual sexuality was prior to stripping.




Ick. I don't like it when people use phrases like "actual sexuality" when referring to everything but heterosexuality. Who is to say that their "actual sexuality" isn't homosexual/bisexual, and it just happens to be heterosexuality that is accepted in society?

In my experience, when women join an alternative group in society such as stripping, they are confronted with alternative experiences. They learn that there are other ways of living. Not everyone is white, heterosexual, educated, etc. Being sexually fluid is okay. Therefore, they may begin experimenting as a result. But to take away strippers' agency and assert that their dislike of men leads to liking women is fundamentally incorrect. It may happen, yes...but it bothers me when people think that way.

Anyway, it's hard for me to blame women who develop attitudes towards men. I love men--and I think the majority are awesome people--but after seeing the variety of men who come into strip clubs, I do develop different attitudes about them. Now when I see a 70 year old man walking down the street, I am much more aware of him as a sexual being, for example. So if women get to the point where they have many bad experiences working as a sex worker, then it's not surprising that she may start to generalize her experiences. Stripping will make anyone defensive to a certain degree--but is this even a bad thing? It's only bad when people start to close their minds to other possibilities. It's often just a form of self-protection.

I don't think anyone should be pre-judged or develop a 100% rule about men...but do you see what I'm saying? When any man walking down the street could be the next person who lunges at my pussy on stage, it does make me a bit more aware of the human condition. And I have the same awareness about women, too, as a result of having danced for many women. A stripper may see more of reality than most people: and people call her negative as a result. We get to see what (some/many) people are really thinking, because strip clubs allow these thoughts to transform into actions (as a result of the relaxed atmosphere, etc.)

^^ If that makes me sound like the stereotypical "man-hating stripper," then I've misspoken. It should sound fairly logical...

ETA: There's some really common quote out there... like "If women knew what men were reallythinking, they'd ______" Strippers are somewhat unique in that we get to see what guys are actually thinking. They aren't thinking it 100% of the time, and 99.9% of them know when it is and isn't appropriate to let it out, but being privy to these thoughts can inspire certain judgments about men.

mediocrity
09-20-2008, 02:28 PM
Ick. I don't like it when people use phrases like "actual sexuality" when referring to everything but heterosexuality. Who is to say that their "actual sexuality" isn't homosexual/bisexual, and it just happens to be heterosexuality that is accepted in society?

In my experience, when women join an alternative group in society such as stripping, they are confronted with alternative experiences. They learn that there are other ways of living. Not everyone is white, heterosexual, educated, etc. Being sexually fluid is okay. Therefore, they may begin experimenting as a result. But to take away strippers' agency and assert that their dislike of men leads to liking women is fundamentally incorrect. It may happen, yes...but it bothers me when people think that way.

Anyway, it's hard for me to blame women who develop attitudes towards men. I love men--and I think the majority are awesome people--but after seeing the variety of men who come into strip clubs, I do develop different attitudes about them. Now when I see a 70 year old man walking down the street, I am much more aware of him as a sexual being, for example. So if women get to the point where they have many bad experiences working as a sex worker, then it's not surprising that she may start to generalize her experiences. Stripping will make anyone defensive to a certain degree--but is this even a bad thing? It's only bad when people start to close their minds to other possibilities. It's often just a form of self-protection.

I don't think anyone should be pre-judged or develop a 100% rule about men...but do you see what I'm saying? When any man walking down the street could be the next person who lunges at my pussy on stage, it does make me a bit more aware of the human condition. And I have the same awareness about women, too, as a result of having danced for many women. A stripper may see more of reality than most people: and people call her negative as a result. We get to see what (some/many) people are really thinking, because strip clubs allow these thoughts to transform into actions (as a result of the relaxed atmosphere, etc.)

^^ If that makes me sound like the stereotypical "man-hating stripper," then I've misspoken. It should sound fairly logical...

ETA: There's some really common quote out there... like "If women knew what men were reallythinking, they'd ______" Strippers are somewhat unique in that we get to see what guys are actually thinking. They aren't thinking it 100% of the time, and 99.9% of them know when it is and isn't appropriate to let it out, but being privy to these thoughts can inspire certain judgments about men.

I feel like I need to give you a standing ovation.

I don't hate men, I'm not developing bisexual/lesbian tendencies, blah blah blah. I'm like you, I love most men, otherwise I wouldn't have worked around them for as long as I have. But you are absolutely correct in your example of seeing a 70 yr old man and being more aware of him as a sexual being. It's like you begin to see things through different glasses. Not necessarily bad, but different.

Really, the whole point I was trying to make is that there's a right way and a wrong way to do the touching song and dance. The main thing that gets to me is the girls who tolerate and ENCOURAGE the wrong way to do it.

Golden_Rule
09-20-2008, 09:09 PM
Ick. I don't like it when people use phrases like "actual sexuality" when referring to everything but heterosexuality. Who is to say that their "actual sexuality" isn't homosexual/bisexual, and it just happens to be heterosexuality that is accepted in society?

I don't see how that is applicable to what I was saying above.

if you don't like "actual sexuality", replace it with "whatever they sexuality was before they started stripping".


Being sexually fluid is okay. Therefore, they may begin experimenting as a result. But to take away strippers' agency and assert that their dislike of men leads to liking women is fundamentally incorrect. It may happen, yes...but it bothers me when people think that way.

Sexuality is fluid and what I said above doesn't discount that. In fact it depends on it.

People are sexual creatures. If women stop desiring men because they have become less than attractive sexual partners that doesn't mean they stop desiring sex.

If at the same time this is happening they see co-workers, people they have come to feel a commeradery with because they are experiencing things together that "outsiders" simply can't understand, experimenting with thier sexuality in new ways it isn't a stretch to start wondering about experimenting themselves.

It is very similar to what straight men experience when being in prision. Men who would never previously consider having homosexual sex don't stop being sexual creatures when penned up in prisions for extended periods of times. They wind up having sex with other men. The moment they leave prison though many of them do not repeat the behavior and revert to having sex only with women.


Anyway, it's hard for me to blame women who develop attitudes towards men.

Whose blaming anyone? I just pointed out having noticed something in all my years working in, and hanging around, strip-clubs.

Golden_Rule
09-20-2008, 09:14 PM
I feel like I need to give you a standing ovation.

I don't hate men, I'm not developing bisexual/lesbian tendencies, blah blah blah. I'm like you, I love most men, otherwise I wouldn't have worked around them for as long as I have. But you are absolutely correct in your example of seeing a 70 yr old man and being more aware of him as a sexual being. It's like you begin to see things through different glasses. Not necessarily bad, but different.

Really, the whole point I was trying to make is that there's a right way and a wrong way to do the touching song and dance. The main thing that gets to me is the girls who tolerate and ENCOURAGE the wrong way to do it.

Why do you take comments so personally? I was pointing out a tendency I noted, not making a comment about you.

You mean to tell me that you haven't noticed dancers who have been negatively impacted by the way they believe men to behave in clubs. That this impact hasn't effected them negatively with men in their lives? That some of them don't develope sexual relationships with women?

That is all I am saying. That I have seen this happen with SOME dancers. {geeze} :)

charlie61
09-21-2008, 02:56 PM
Woah, GR...you took that waaaaay too personally.

The way you made a numbered list definitely made it seem like you were saying that many strippers fit into one of your categories. And it seemed like you were implying that women "change" their sexual preferences because of the dislike they develop for men--that's all I was disagreeing with.

You should've prefaced that all with "A few dancers I've met have told me that they experienced this" rather than "I've noticed over the many years that lots of dancers seem to feel this way" or whatever you said.

charlie61
09-21-2008, 02:57 PM
I have long taken note of the phases many dancers go through from the point they start working to the point some time past the time the stop working.




See, this is what made it seem like you were generalizing your categories. Makes it seem like you have this insight into the "stages" we go through...or something. So if I seemed defensive, that's why.

charlie61
09-21-2008, 03:00 PM
3) Form bi-sexual and lesbian tendencies that grow out of the combination of this 'we are all sisters in this foxhole together' thinking combined with a total loss of respect and any desire to have sex with men. [well, the men they are meeting in strip-clubs anyway]

4) It is interesting to note that these bi-sexual and lesbian tendencies subside with the distance placed between them and stripping. So some time after they retire they tend to revert to what ever their actual sexuality was prior to stripping.




And these parts are why I got defensive about dancers' sexual preferences. You make it sound like strippers hate men, therefore they become gay/bisexual. Which is a pretty offensive thing to say. And you make it sound like you've known sooo many dancers who have reverted back to being straight after dancing. Shrugs.