View Full Version : So.... what's up with Sarah Palin?
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Miss_Luscious
09-17-2008, 07:34 AM
So... what IS up with Sarah Palin? Oh yeah, she's decided not to cooperate with the "Troopergate" investigation after saying she would cooperate fully. Why? Because it's being taken over by Obama operatives with an agenda. But wait, this investigation began before she was announced as the VP and the committee running the investigation consists of 8 Republicans and only 4 Democrats and they came to a 12-0 (aka UNANIMOUS) decision to investigate the matter months ago. So...Yep.
Perry
09-17-2008, 07:43 AM
Give me one valid reason other than rape, incest, or the life of the mother. In my eyes, there is no other reason which justifies what I view as a human life..
Money comes to mind. A lot of women can't afford car seats, clothes, mashed bananas and all those other things babies like. Not to mention college. Is it better to have the baby and let it starve to death?
Or worse, women who didn't want children might not love and care for them. Child abuse and neglect comes to mind, as well.
Maybe, we could max out an already crowded foster system, and end up with orphanages right out of Dicken's pages.
francescadubois
09-17-2008, 07:46 AM
OMFG, you're not going to win here, bem. I don't hold any illusions about changing your point of view (which has been noted. repeatedly. on several pages). You think it's wrong. Others choose to disagree. You're not going to change my POV, no one will succeed in changing yours. Now, please, drop it or make your own special "abortion is wrong" thread in MO.
QFMFT!! Just leave it alone already. No one is gonna change anyone's mind.
bem401
09-17-2008, 07:47 AM
Money comes to mind. A lot of women can't afford car seats, clothes, mashed bananas and all those other things babies like. Not to mention college. Is it better to have the baby and let it starve to death?
Or worse, women who didn't want children might not love and care for them. Child abuse and neglect comes to mind, as well.
Maybe, we could max out an already crowded foster system, and end up with orphanages right out of Dicken's pages.
I guess you're right. Killing the fetus is the answer.
Eric Stoner
09-17-2008, 08:04 AM
\
The fetus isnt nothing...it is potentially a person. It isnt yet. It is a bunch of cells developing INTO a person.
And I support abortion at any time...but not for any reason. The fact of the matter is that nobody has an abortion in the third trimester just because they wake up and decide they dont feel like having a baby anymore. You HAVE to have a Dr. give the reason...like hydroencephely..have you ever seen a fetus who's skull never developed? How cruel is it to force a women who knows that her baby is dead inside her to go through a month or more of pregnancy..with everyone she sees asking when shes due, if its a boy or a girl...etc..etc...and she knows she will never actually have a living child from this pregnancy. I cant imagine doing that to someone.
I WISH you were right but there is that highly publicized Doctor in Kansas ( supported by the Gov. ) who does 3rd trimester abortions WITHOUT adequate medical justification. Fortunately, he is the exception.
As for YOUR example ( and there are worse ones) I don't have a problem with aborting children who are effectively vegetables BUT it's something that ought to be approached with caution and care. Where do you draw the line ? Should women be allowed to have partial birth abortions just because the child has Down's Syndrome. or spina bifida ? There was an outrageous case in Indiana about 20 years ago that permitted a child who was BORN ALIVE to be starved to death just because it had Down's Syndrome and spina bifida.
Eric Stoner
09-17-2008, 08:07 AM
Speaking of babies and all that jazz.....If Barack Obama had a pregnant daughter right now....Republicans would have gone NUTS on him about it.
Just like the Dems and the media were so careful and solicitous towards Sarah and Bristol ?
Eric Stoner
09-17-2008, 08:08 AM
Money comes to mind. A lot of women can't afford car seats, clothes, mashed bananas and all those other things babies like. Not to mention college. Is it better to have the baby and let it starve to death?
Or worse, women who didn't want children might not love and care for them. Child abuse and neglect comes to mind, as well.
Maybe, we could max out an already crowded foster system, and end up with orphanages right out of Dicken's pages.
That's why they invented adoption; foster care and the orphanage.
Miss_Luscious
09-17-2008, 08:16 AM
Stop talking about abortion in this thread. Start an abortion thread.
Perry
09-17-2008, 08:19 AM
Well, how many children could our system support?
1.3 million abortions* are performed per year. Want to adopt some of those could-have-been people? Would you like to pay for their food, shelter and education? What are the odds of them finding jobs as adults?
*Taken from http://www.prolifeaction.org/faq/abortion.htm.
ETA, I'm sorry to thread jack. I'm done now. Promise.
Zia_Abq
09-17-2008, 10:42 AM
So... what IS up with Sarah Palin? Oh yeah, she's decided not to cooperate with the "Troopergate" investigation after saying she would cooperate fully. Why? Because it's being taken over by Obama operatives with an agenda. But wait, this investigation began before she was announced as the VP and the committee running the investigation consists of 8 Republicans and only 4 Democrats and they came to a 12-0 (aka UNANIMOUS) decision to investigate the matter months ago. So...Yep.
Obviously she has ALOT to hide in this matter. Things so bad they know it would affect the election.
Miss_Luscious
09-17-2008, 10:51 AM
Which leads me to believe that
A: McCain did not properly vet her as the campaign said he did OR
B: He did vet her, he knew about this and didn't care or didn't realize it was a big deal OR
C: He knew about it, he knew it was a big deal and decided to actively try to cover it up.
None of these options point to him having good judgment or the campaign doing everything on the up and up.
Miss_Luscious
09-17-2008, 11:01 AM
Here (http://content.vetpalin.com/index.html) is an interesting site if you want to get some more info on Sarah Palin. Just keep clicking the "Vet Sarah Palin" button and you'll keep getting information.
CKXXX
09-17-2008, 11:05 AM
OK, so now abortion is OK because we eat steak?
Please tell me you are not seriously trying to equate the value of a human life with that of a cow that was bred and raised to be livestock.
So you are saying that human life is the only life thats worthy of fighting for? So it ISNT about pro-life...its about pro-potential human life and all other life thats already here can be tortured and slaughtered for our enjoyment. Yeah...thats hypocritical.
sapphiregirl
09-17-2008, 12:40 PM
Ding...Ding...Ding.....we have another winner!
So much for getting the Hillary supporters :party2:
-----------------------------------
Eve Ensler, the playwright and activist best known for her hit , The Vagina Monologues, has hit the nail on the head regarding Sarah Palin.
Please pass it along!
DRILL, DRILL, DRILL
I am having Sarah Palin nightmares.
I dreamt last night that she was a member of a club where they rode snowmobiles and wore the claws of drowned and starved polar bears around their necks. I have a particular thing for polar bears.
Maybe it's their snowy whiteness or their bigness or the fact that they live in the arctic or that I have never seen one in person or touched one.
Maybe it is the fact that they live so comfortably on ice.
Whatever it is, I need the polar bears.
I don't like raging at women.
I am a feminist and have spent my
life trying to build community, help empower women and stop
violence against them. It is hard to write about Sarah Palin.
This is why the Sarah Palin choice was all the more insidious and
cynical.
The people who made this choice count on the goodness and
solidarity of feminists.
But everything Sarah Palin believes in and practices is
antithetical to feminism which for me is part of one story --
connected to saving the earth, ending racism, empowering women,
giving young girls options, opening our minds, deepening
tolerance, and ending violence and war.
I believe that the McCain/Palin ticket is one of the most
dangerous choices of my lifetime, and should this country chose
those candidates the fall-out may be so great, the destruction so
vast in so many areas that America may never recover.
But what is equally disturbing is the impact that duo would have on the rest
of the world. Unfortunately, this is not a joke.
In my lifetime I have seen the clownish, the inept, the bizarre be elected to the
presidency with regularity.
Sarah Palin does not believe in evolution.
I take this as a metaphor.
In her world and the world of Fundamentalists nothing
changes or gets better or evolves.
She does not believe in global
warming.
The melting of the arctic, the storms that are destroying
our cities, the pollution and rise of cancers, are all part of
God's plan.
She is fighting to take the polar bears off the
endangered species list.
The earth, in Palin's view, is here to be
taken and plundered.
The wolves and the bears are here to be shot
and plundered. The oil is here to be taken and plundered.
Iraq is
here to be taken and plundered.
As she said herself of the Iraqi
war, "It was a task from God.
"
Sarah Palin does not believe in abortion.
She does not believe
women who are raped and incested and ripped open against their
will should have a right to determine whether they have their
rapist's baby or not.
She obviously does not believe in sex education or birth control.
I imagine her daughter was practicing abstinence and we know how
many babies that makes.
Sarah Palin does not much believe in thinking.
From what I gather
she has tried to ban books from the library, has a tendency to
dispense with people who think independently.
She cannot tolerate
an environment of ambiguity and difference.
This is a woman who
could and might very well be the next president of the United
States.
She would govern one of the most diverse populations on
the earth.
Sarah believes in guns.
She has her own custom Austrian hunting
rifle. She has been known to kill 40 caribou at a clip.
She has
shot hundreds of wolves from the air.
Sarah believes in God.
That is of course her right, her private
right.
But when God and Guns come together in the public sector,
when war is declared in God's name, when the rights of women are
denied in his name, that is the end of separation of church and
state and the undoing of everything America has ever tried to be.
I write to my sisters.
I write because I believe we hold this
election in our hands.
This vote is a vote that will determine the
future not just of the U.S., but of the planet.
It will determine
whether we create policies to save the earth or make it forever
uninhabitable for humans.
It will determine whether we move
towards dialogue and diplomacy in the world or whether we escalate
violence through invasion, undermining and attack.
It will determine whether we go for oil, strip mining, coal burning or
invest our money in alternatives that will free us from dependency
and destruction.
It will determine if money gets spent on
education and healthcare or whether we build more and more methods
of killing.
It will determine whether America is a free open
tolerant society or a closed place of fear, fundamentalism and
aggression.
If the polar bears by themselves don't move you to go and do everything in
your power to get Obama elected then consider the chant that filled the
hall after Palin spoke at the RNC, "Drill Drill Drill.
" I think of
teeth when I think of drills. I think of rape.
I think of destruction. I think of domination.
I think of military exercises that force mindless repetition, emptying the brain of analysis, doubt, ambiguity or dissent. I think of pain.
Do we want a future of drilling? More holes in the ozone, in the
floor of the sea, more holes in our thinking, in the trust between
nations and peoples, more holes in the fabric of this precious
thing we call life?
Eve Ensler
September 5, 2008
sapphiregirl
09-17-2008, 01:04 PM
Just like the Dems and the media were so careful and solicitous towards Sarah and Bristol ?
Give me a break....Repbulicans would have never let it go. Obama was a class act.
How many babies, children and mothers do you think have been killed in Iraq because of Republicans the "Pro Lifers"....fucking pathetic.
Go look at some pictures of children in Iraq that have been blown to bits, no arms legs, or are dead because of the goddamn Pro Life Republican Party. Why aren't they showing pictures of those kids all over the news. Republicans need to go look in the mirror at all the innocent blood they have on their hands....FOR OIL!
sapphiregirl
09-17-2008, 01:22 PM
That's why they invented adoption; foster care and the orphanage.
Do you know how many thousands of unwanted kids are in the US now? Can we use YOUR paycheck to care for them? How many can we place in YOUR home? 1, 2, 3 ?
Did you know that because of the United States,there are now approx. 4.5 MILLION INNOCENT ORPHANS in Iraq. You better make sure those kids don't grow up to hate the US for killing their parents over Oil.....after all the man who was responsible for 9-11 is NOT EVEN IN THEIR COUNTRY!
Eric Stoner
09-17-2008, 01:29 PM
Do you know how many thousands of unwanted kids are in the US now? Can we use YOUR paycheck to care for them? How many can we place in YOUR home? 1, 2, 3 ?
Did you know that because of the United States,there are now approx. 4.5 MILLION INNOCENT ORPHANS in Iraq. You better make sure those kids don't grow up to hate the US for killing their parents over Oil.....after all the man who was responsible for 9-11 is NOT EVEN IN THEIR COUNTRY!
I'm sorry. I am still my only child. My paycheck already helps care for them. It's called "taxes".
All those "unwanted" children had parents. Where are they ?
Btw, WHY is this being addressed to me ? I'm not one of these rabid "Right to Lifers". I was simply pointing out that we do have institutions to take care of unwanted children and keep them from starving on the streets.
Eric Stoner
09-17-2008, 01:31 PM
Do you know how many thousands of unwanted kids are in the US now? Can we use YOUR paycheck to care for them? How many can we place in YOUR home? 1, 2, 3 ?
Did you know that because of the United States,there are now approx. 4.5 MILLION INNOCENT ORPHANS in Iraq. You better make sure those kids don't grow up to hate the US for killing their parents over Oil.....after all the man who was responsible for 9-11 is NOT EVEN IN THEIR COUNTRY!
Again. I don't like Bush. I NEVER liked Bush. I OPPOSED the War in Iraq. Save the vitriol for those who deserve it.
sapphiregirl
09-17-2008, 01:36 PM
I'm sorry. I am still my only child. My paycheck already helps care for them. It's called "taxes".
All those "unwanted" children had parents. Where are they ?
Btw, WHY is this being addressed to me ? I'm not one of these rabid "Right to Lifers". I was simply pointing out that we do have institutions to take care of unwanted children and keep them from starving on the streets.
Yeah right.....Republicans are clueless...all about taxes. YOU, YOU, YOU.
Approx. 6 million children starve to death in the world each year.
The CDC estimates that by the year 2010 there will be 10 million AIDS orphans in the world with the road we are on.
Sarah Palin pops out 5 kids and claims she is pro life....Go ADOPT those kids and be socially responsible for all life with birth control and education and you can beat the pro life drum.
Eric Stoner
09-17-2008, 02:14 PM
Yeah right.....Republicans are clueless...all about taxes. YOU, YOU, YOU.
Approx. 6 million children starve to death in the world each year.
The CDC estimates that by the year 2010 there will be 10 million AIDS orphans in the world with the road we are on.
Sarah Palin pops out 5 kids and claims she is pro life....Go ADOPT those kids and be socially responsible for all life with birth control and education and you can beat the pro life drum.
Favoring low taxes is bad why ? So far, NOBODY has been able to show why low taxes are bad.
We are talking about American children living in the U.S.
World hunger and AIDS are dealt with in other threads.
I have to adopt Palin's children ? Why ? They seemed happy, well fed and well adjusted to me. Are you sure I'd be a better parent than Sarah and her husband ?
I tell you one thing, if I am forced to adopt those kids, they are moving to NYC because there ain't no way I'm living in Alaska !!!! I do have 3 bathrooms so I suppose we could manage. How much child support am I gonna get ?
When did I ever post a word against birth control or sex education ? Or that was "pro-life". Since I personally favor an unfettered right to abort in the first trimester and conditional rights and privileges thereafter, HOW does that possibly make ME "pro-life" ?
CKXXX
09-17-2008, 02:54 PM
^^ I believe she meant that Palin should have adopted instead of popping out a litter of her own.
sapphiregirl
09-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Favoring low taxes is bad why ? So far, NOBODY has been able to show why low taxes are bad.
We are talking about American children living in the U.S.
World hunger and AIDS are dealt with in other threads.
I have to adopt Palin's children ? Why ? They seemed happy, well fed and well adjusted to me. Are you sure I'd be a better parent than Sarah and her husband ?
I tell you one thing, if I am forced to adopt those kids, they are moving to NYC because there ain't no way I'm living in Alaska !!!! I do have 3 bathrooms so I suppose we could manage. How much child support am I gonna get ?
When did I ever post a word against birth control or sex education ? Or that was "pro-life". Since I personally favor an unfettered right to abort in the first trimester and conditional rights and privileges thereafter, HOW does that possibly make ME "pro-life" ?
You just don't get it. To be short and to the point....Republicans need to drop the Pro Life BS/ abortion debate.....because they are anything but Pro life...they cause and ignore more destruction and death on the planet than any Pro Choice Democrat.
How are you voting? Have you made a decision?
Melonie
09-17-2008, 05:19 PM
How are you voting? Have you made a decision?
my answer to this question ... with my feet !!!
Miss_Luscious
09-17-2008, 05:35 PM
Eric Stoner is voting for Obama.
yoda57us
09-17-2008, 05:47 PM
I disagree. Pro-choice is merely a sanitized way of saying abortion is OK.
You either oppose abortion ( pro-life ) or you do not. I don't see the gray area there that you do.
Nonetheless, this is all academic. It's a topic of discussion here, not a cause in my life. I fully respect that a woman presently has the right to choose but that doesn't mean I agree with it or think that exercising that right is the best thing to do for all concerned.
Again BEM I'm not saying that abortion is OK or not OK at all. I'm saying that it is none of my business. It's not really a gray area it's a choice. A choice that is just as valid as yours. I'm not judging you for your opinion, why are you judging me and others for ours?
fancygirl
09-17-2008, 11:32 PM
Do you know how many thousands of unwanted kids are in the US now? Can we use YOUR paycheck to care for them? How many can we place in YOUR home? 1, 2, 3 ?
Did you know that because of the United States,there are now approx. 4.5 MILLION INNOCENT ORPHANS in Iraq. You better make sure those kids don't grow up to hate the US for killing their parents over Oil.....after all the man who was responsible for 9-11 is NOT EVEN IN THEIR COUNTRY!
I once had a guy friend say that his experience growing up in foster homes had been so horrible that if he got someone pregnant and knew that the kid would have to go through what he went through-- he'd want the woman to get an abortion. He didn't take this lightly either.
eagle2
09-18-2008, 12:16 AM
Give me one valid reason other than rape, incest, or the life of the mother. In my eyes, there is no other reason which justifies what I view as a human life.
If you view it as a human life, don't have an abortion if you get pregnant. I don't view an undeveloped fetus as a fully human life. Who appointed you as the ultimate authority on the issue?
sapphiregirl
09-18-2008, 12:23 AM
I once had a guy friend say that his experience growing up in foster homes had been so horrible that if he got someone pregnant and knew that the kid would have to go through what he went through-- he'd want the woman to get an abortion. He didn't take this lightly either.
That's sad. :'(
sapphiregirl
09-18-2008, 12:49 AM
At least Joe Biden can speak......Good Luck Sarah Palin.
Did you know John McCain voted 19 times AGAINST raising minimum wage in this country....a man who owns 7+ houses.
Excellent Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton on womens issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h1pLEqI3Pw
kdogg247
09-18-2008, 05:57 AM
At least Joe Biden can speak......
The problem is getting him to stop.
*ba-dum-ching*
bem401
09-18-2008, 06:57 AM
Which leads me to believe that
A: McCain did not properly vet her as the campaign said he did OR
B: He did vet her, he knew about this and didn't care or didn't realize it was a big deal OR
C: He knew about it, he knew it was a big deal and decided to actively try to cover it up.
None of these options point to him having good judgment or the campaign doing everything on the up and up.
So the huge momentum shift towards McCain has nothing to do with her? That must mean the folks are starting to see through the 'smoke and mirrors" that is Obama.
kitana
09-18-2008, 07:05 AM
^^ QFT. I'm just god smacked How someone can be pro-life and then munch burgers and shoot deer.
It's fun, maybe even trendy in some circles to be pro-life. But that's a luxury only rich people, men and politicians get. Many women (and NONE of us as a teen) can afford to have children.
There is a HUGE difference between humans and animals, sorry but that's a straw man at best.
bem401
09-18-2008, 07:14 AM
Again BEM I'm not saying that abortion is OK or not OK at all. I'm saying that it is none of my business. It's not really a gray area it's a choice. A choice that is just as valid as yours. I'm not judging you for your opinion, why are you judging me and others for ours?
Not judging anybody but the topic was brought in by another poster and I am entitled to state my opinion, no? In fact, when one poster personalized the issue with her personal experience, I intentionally stepped back to avoid being called judgmental because I realize this is a "hair-trigger" issue.
As far as the argument itself is concerned, I am of the opinion that if you're saying choice is OK then your saying abortion is OK. I don't see how one is substantially different from the other. But that is only my opinion. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue.
bem401
09-18-2008, 07:18 AM
I once had a guy friend say that his experience growing up in foster homes had been so horrible that if he got someone pregnant and knew that the kid would have to go through what he went through-- he'd want the woman to get an abortion. He didn't take this lightly either.
Well maybe if he got some girl pregnant, he'd be man enough to live up to his responsibilities. I know, call me unrealistic.
kitana
09-18-2008, 07:22 AM
At least Joe Biden can speak......Good Luck Sarah Palin.
Did you know John McCain voted 19 times AGAINST raising minimum wage in this country....a man who owns 7+ houses.
Excellent Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton on womens issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h1pLEqI3Pw
Raising min wage, isn't always a good idea. In fact it is usually a bad idea, since everything else raises as well to compensate for higher wages. Before you have someone that has $50 at the end of the month due to a lower wage and lower bills, and then raise it, and they end up owing at the end of the month, or having only $20 at the end of the month.
Richard_Head
09-18-2008, 07:31 AM
So the huge momentum shift towards McCain has nothing to do with her? That must mean the folks are starting to see through the 'smoke and mirrors" that is Obama.Actually, the momentum is shifting back to Obama if you look at the latest POLLS (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html). So I'm guessing people are seeing through the 'smoke and mirrors' that is Sarah Palin (and John McCain).
bem401
09-18-2008, 07:34 AM
Actually, the momentum is shifting back to Obama if you look at the latest POLLS (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/latestpolls/index.html). So I'm guessing people are seeing through the 'smoke and mirrors' that is Sarah Palin (and John McCain).
Its going to be a tight one, no doubt about it.
SPLUT
09-18-2008, 09:23 AM
^ With a nod to bi-partisanship I will say that you are correct sir. Lookey here we're building bridges.
Yekhefah
09-18-2008, 10:37 AM
Give me one valid reason other than rape, incest, or the life of the mother. In my eyes, there is no other reason which justifies what I view as a human life.
Should it also be okay to execute toddlers who are the offspring of rape or incest?
Eric Stoner
09-18-2008, 12:53 PM
You just don't get it. To be short and to the point....Republicans need to drop the Pro Life BS/ abortion debate.....because they are anything but Pro life...they cause and ignore more destruction and death on the planet than any Pro Choice Democrat.
How are you voting? Have you made a decision?
I AGREE with you. I'm from the Barry Goldwater wing of Conservatives which happens to be PRO-CHOICE ( 1 of Goldwater's daughters had an abortion) and TOLERANT.
I haven't made a final decision, but I'm still leaning toward Obama. I have too many problems with Palin. I respect McCain BUT with him we'd NEVER get out of Iraq.
bem401
09-18-2008, 01:07 PM
Should it also be okay to execute toddlers who are the offspring of rape or incest?
I would say no but those are hardly the abortions of convenience . Seeing as the woman got pregnant because she was the vistim of a crime, I could could see some leeway being given there for abortion.
As an aside, Obama is on record as opposing a bill that required medical attention be given to babies that survive the partial-birth abortion procedure.
Yekhefah
09-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Oh, okay. So it's not really about saving innocent babies, it's about punishing women you see as loose and careless.
Glad we cleared that up.
bem401
09-18-2008, 01:16 PM
Oh, okay. So it's not really about saving innocent babies, it's about punishing women you see as loose and careless.
Glad we cleared that up.
I don't see how you connect the dots that way.
Who's being punished?
An exception for rape, incest, or the life of the mother is acceptable to me. I fail to make the connection to infants and toddlers already alive.
Yekhefah
09-18-2008, 01:18 PM
If an embryo is an innocent life worthy of protection, just as a toddler is, then the circumstances of its conception shouldn't matter. By making exceptions for rape and incest, you make it perfectly clear that you do in fact see a dramatic difference between embryos and children, and your problem with abortion is actually with the women's sexual mores.
bem401
09-18-2008, 01:25 PM
If an embryo is an innocent life worthy of protection, just as a toddler is, then the circumstances of its conception shouldn't matter. By making exceptions for rape and incest, you make it perfectly clear that you do in fact see a dramatic difference between embryos and children, and your problem with abortion is actually with the women's sexual mores.
I see your point, though I disagree with your conclusion. I'm just saying I could understand arguing for abortion in those cases.
It's a situation I could never be confronted with as a man, but I would probably advise any female friend of mine not to abort in cases of rape or incest.
I know their appears to be an inconsistency there and I've wrestled with that question previously. Your argument makes me think maybe I should re-think the rape/incest exception.
sapphiregirl
09-18-2008, 01:39 PM
I AGREE with you. I'm from the Barry Goldwater wing of Conservatives which happens to be PRO-CHOICE ( 1 of Goldwater's daughters had an abortion) and TOLERANT.
I haven't made a final decision, but I'm still leaning toward Obama. I have too many problems with Palin. I respect McCain BUT with him we'd NEVER get out of Iraq.
You know you want to pull that leave for Obama....Do it for the polar bears and wolves :bear:
To be serious though....I think most on the fence people are going to wait until after the debates to lean one way or another.
Eric Stoner
09-18-2008, 02:03 PM
You know you want to pull that leave for Obama....Do it for the polar bears and wolves :bear:
To be serious though....I think most on the fence people are going to wait until after the debates to lean one way or another.
Actually the polar bears are adjusting rather well. They are smart and adaptive and will adjust their behavior to the shrinking polar ice. As I've spelled out, shooting wolves from copters is SICK and unecessary.
I'm going to watch the debates and they will probably factor in but Obama would have to implode for me to vote for McCain. I'm just starting to get this sneaky, creepy feeling that somehow, some way , McCain will squeak out a win.
Yekhefah
09-18-2008, 02:35 PM
Your argument makes me think maybe I should re-think the rape/incest exception.
Of course it does, although I wonder why you place the life of a non-sentient embryo above that of a woman, and would like to imbue that embryo with more rights than anyone else has.
No one else has the right to use the body of an unwilling person, not even for survival. I can't just demand your kidney to save my life, even though you're likely to survive the procedure and you only need one. If you decide it's too inconvenient to give it to me, you have that right, even at the cost of my life. So I wonder why you think embryos are so much more valuable than actual people?
Miss_Luscious
09-18-2008, 02:38 PM
As an aside, Obama is on record as opposing a bill that required medical attention be given to babies that survive the partial-birth abortion procedure.
Yeah, Obama wants to kill babies.
Please shut the fuck up.
The Born Alive Infants Protection Act was redundant as there are (and were) already statutes in place forbidding the killing of children from the moment of birth. BAIPA amended them to define "born alive", specifically adding the language:
"at any stage of development"
and
"regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion"
Democrats at both the state and federal levels opposed this bill because of the obvious consequence that if during an abortion the fetus was removed from the mother, it would no longer be possible to destroy it - even if it was a three-month old fish thing.
The language that was added later, which made it acceptable to federal Democrats, was:
"Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being "born alive" as defined in this section."
In a number of states, including Illinois, the local Democratic parties decided this wasn't sufficient to prevent the legislation from endangering Roe v Wade. This was not some sort of "disgusting" attempt at "leaving babies born alive to die".
Here is Obama's explanation for opposing the bill. (http://thepage.time.com/2008/08/16/cbns-brody-gets-hot-interview-with-obama-at-saddleback/)
francescadubois
09-18-2008, 02:50 PM
^^Good question, Yek!! :yes: