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Melonie
09-13-2008, 03:15 AM
Once Copernicus developed the heliocentric model, once Kepler defined elliptical orbits, once Newton defined gravity and invented calculus, the LHC and its successors and benefits were inevitable. Curiosity continues. It's not something that can be switched off because we say, "Past this point, we'd rather stay ignorant."

Absolutely true. But so far very little has been done in regard to Einstein's model of 'space-time', in regard to Tesla's model of 'zero point energy' etc. ... or at least anything that the general public has been made aware of.

For better or worse, there seems to be a very tight Thomas Edison-esque linkage between investing in those branches of scientific research which promise to result in profitable new products within a short time period versus those that don't. The two great exceptions of course were WW2 and the US space program, both of which applied huge amounts of 'public' money to develop specific solutions to specific problems ... but which in turn spun off a plethora of practical applications that were never envisioned by the original researchers. Both of these were made possible, of course, because fear of losing a war (or cold war) overrode the economic self-interest of American voters re the spending of billions of dollars worth of 'public' money.

Just for controversy's sake, I'll also throw in that when Einstein's theory of 'space-time' is applied to the 'Big Bang', the relativity of time flow between the point of origin and a point on earth develop a MASSIVE discrepancy.



(snip)"In 1915 Einstein proposed that time was relative, that the passage of time altered according to space, the speed of the person travelling and the force of gravity at that moment. Bearing in mind these differences in the passage of time, the period of time in which the universe was created as revealed in seven different verses of the Qur'an is actually highly compatible with scientists' estimations. The six-day period revealed in the Qur'an can be thought of as six periods. Because, taking into account the relativity of time, a "day" refers only to a 24-hour period experienced on Earth under current conditions. Elsewhere in the universe, however, at another time and under other conditions, a "day" could refer to a much longer period of time. Indeed, the word "ayyamin" in the period of six days (sittati ayyamin) in these verses (Qur'an 32:4, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 57:4, 50:38, and 7:54) means not only "days," but also "age, period, moment, term."

In the first period of the universe, the passage of time took place much faster than that with which we are familiar today. The reason for this is that, at the moment of the Big Bang, our universe was compressed into a very small point. The expansion of the universe and increase in its volume ever since the moment of that explosion has extended the borders of the universe to millions of light years. Indeed, the stretching of space ever since that moment has had very important ramifications for universal time.

The energy at the moment of the Big Bang slowed down the flow of time 1012 [ -th power - sic ] (one million million) times. When the universe was created the speed of universal time was higher up to a million million times, as time is experienced today. In other words, a million million minutes on Earth is the equivalent of just one minute in universal time.

When a six-day period of time is calculated according to the relativity of time, it equates to six million million (six trillion) days. That is because universal time flows a million million times faster than time on Earth. Calculated in terms of years, 6 trillion days equates to approximately 16.427 billion years. This is within the estimated range for the age of the universe.

6,000,000,000,000 days/365.25 = 16.427104723 billion years"(snip)


it's EXTREMELY curious the way this calculation appears to work out !!!

Dottie Rebel
09-13-2008, 06:43 AM
^^^^Melonie, you make my tiny head spin. Thank you for this thread. I want to keep an eye on it.

I can't get the imagine of a light ray shooting out of the middle of the Indian Ocean out of my head now!

By the way, there is a BBC documentary about this experiment that you can watch online for free. I haven't watched it yet, but definitely will now!

http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/six_billion_dollar_experiment.php

MeanGirl
09-13-2008, 06:51 AM
^^^ i agree with quit messing with the forces much larger than us. i dont know why people can't just accept that God is the major energy in the big bang theory and give it a rest.


:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Yekhefah
09-13-2008, 07:09 AM
^^^ Why is that so funny?

Dottie Rebel
09-13-2008, 07:12 AM
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

No, I gotta say I was like, "WTF" at that. Truly, What. the. fuck.

How hubristic and arrogant to assume that your personal religious belief is the only truth that exists in the universe.

MeanGirl
09-13-2008, 07:14 AM
Yek, It's pretty simple why people can't accept it. People believe in different things. I thought you made very valid points as to why you disagreed with the experiment, however as an atheist I found the above statement to be extremely naive. The Big Bang Theory is a scientific theory and as Paris pointed out, science can be proven. SO isn't the point of the experiment to prove that theory? Whereas if we gave up and believed God was the major force and gave it a rest , then what?! I find it arrogant to assume everyone believes in God, although I fault no one for their beliefs.

MeanGirl
09-13-2008, 07:20 AM
How hubristic and arrogant to assume that your personal religious belief is the only truth that exists in the universe.

Exactly.

Yekhefah
09-13-2008, 07:24 AM
The presence of G-d is just as valid a theory as anything else. They're even calling what they're looking for "the G-d particle." If it's legitimate to believe in the Higgs boson giving mass to matter, even though we haven't seen it and can't prove that it's there, then it's just as legitimate to believe in an intelligent Creator.

Dottie Rebel
09-13-2008, 07:26 AM
^^What is not legitimate is to state "Why don't they just give up all this nonsense and believe like me!"

Yekhefah
09-13-2008, 07:30 AM
Simplistic and arrogant in its wording, yeah. But like I've said before, there are huge risks here and it seems pretty obvious to me that when faced with those risks, one would accept that creation is more complex and involved than we are meant to understand, and let it go. I'm very disappointed that these guys decided that their desire for useless knowledge was worth risking total annihilation. THAT is arrogant.

MeanGirl
09-13-2008, 07:30 AM
The presence of G-d is just as valid a theory as anything else. They're even calling what they're looking for "the G-d particle." If it's legitimate to believe in the Higgs boson giving mass to matter, even though we haven't seen it and can't prove that it's there, then it's just as legitimate to believe in an intelligent Creator.

I see your point, but to say "why don't we just give up and believe God is the major force" etc, is laughable to me. Certainly you can see what I mean? That statement assumed that "we" all believe in God.

Yekhefah
09-13-2008, 07:35 AM
The vast majority of people do believe in some kind of higher power, in my experience. I've noticed that on the west coast it's referred to as "the universe," in the South it's Jesus, in my circle it's G-d, in other countries it's various other gods or powers, but most people appreciate the idea that we are not the be-all.

MeanGirl
09-13-2008, 07:42 AM
Sure, they do. Thank goodness it's not ALL though, or we might have given up and just let things rest in the hands of a "God". I like to question things, and I like proof, but that doesn't make me arrogant. I love mother nature and while I don't believe in a so called higher power beyond science and fact, I certainly appreciate life and want to help better things while I am here.

G-Real
09-13-2008, 09:58 AM
The presence of G-d is just as valid a theory as anything else. They're even calling what they're looking for "the G-d particle." If it's legitimate to believe in the Higgs boson giving mass to matter, even though we haven't seen it and can't prove that it's there, then it's just as legitimate to believe in an intelligent Creator.

Sorry, I have to disagree here......

Religion itself is set on a series of beliefs....just listen to the Catholic Creed: "We believe in one god, maker of heaven of earth, of all that is seen and unseen...."

The key is that they believe, there is no scientific proof of an existance of a higher-being. Humans beleive in gods/deities to give explanations to things that cannot be explained to them in their time. Just like sicknesses were considered "god's punishment" we now know about bacteria, viruses, etc.

Is there a god particle....who knows, but, without the LHC, and subsequent experiments; there's no chance of discovering it, and proving an intelligent creator.

xdamage
09-13-2008, 10:26 AM
Either way, it really depresses me to see people with such dismissive attitudes about what could lead to some of the most brilliant discoveries of our time. Where's the curiosity? Wouldn't you want to learn about and explore every bit that God laid out before you and gave you the intellectual capacity to discover?

I guess the problem is that it is true that scientific research could lead to a catastrophe. I mean realistically, that is a possibility. Even scientists often don't agree about complex systems, and accidents (e.g., a leaky reactor, a man-made virus freed, etc.) are possible outcomes of research.

In and of itself it is not wrong to see that this possibility exists. But the question is, do we go into black or white mode, and stop ALL research or proceed forward, with some reasonable caution of course. Me, I am obviously of the later mindset.

Now the thing is we have hundreds of physicists working together cross country who believe this collider, like others before it, is safe. Then we have the odd balls who have predicted that a multi-headed hydra-demon monster will be unleashed on the earth and devour it (or something more pseudo scientificy sounding). My money is on the physicists for various reasons, including they have a long history of being more or less right and self policing. The loon has the more exciting and easier to understand story, and it appeals emotionally to our fear, but I for sure don't think we can let human or religious fear trump science. That would the worst possible tragedy.

Jay Zeno
09-13-2008, 02:04 PM
The "God particle" refers to the Higgs boson which, if unveiled by the LHC, would go a long way to providing the tie-in of the "Theory of Everything," a dream of Einstein, who wanted such a thing because, in his view, "God does not play with dice." So if the Higgs boson were found by the LHC, you could view it as an affirmation of Einstein and, by inference, his own religious-based view. But the "God particle" is not seen as being a Creator. Simply a cosmologic consistency to help prove some aspects of quantum theory. If that particle is God, then it's a pantheistic reality, because it's everywhere.

The LHC is not useless. Aside from the many foreseeable and unforeseeable results from it (like any science endeavor), it advances knowledge.

Melone, I'm not sure what you're saying. The thread started with your reporting of a fringe claim of worldwide destruction to, what, coincidental concordance with interpretations of Muslim teaching? And I'm thinking that their algorithm of time conversion from the beginning of the universe is so suspect as to be laughable. For one thing, if I'm understanding them right, they're saying time was much faster at the beginning of the universe. But if the universe were expanding at close to the speed of light, time would slow down to a mere crawl. And within the expanding universe, as now, time would be relative to the space involved. They're calling time relative and then treating it as a universal, if changing, constant.

Melonie
09-13-2008, 03:00 PM
^^^ well I certainly am not sufficiently versed on Einstein's theory or relativity calculations to make any sort of case regarding the potential accuracy or laughability of the '6 days at the center of the big bang = 16 million years on earth" assertion. I only pointed out that such an assertion exists in response to others totally slamming the Christian Bible / Muslim Koran 'world was created in 6 days' doctrine. Those posts were off topic, and my response was similarly off topic. However, I did not feel the need to point out that the 'loons' supposed 4 year 'incubation period' prior to the destruction of the earth also obviously appears to coincide with various religious and non-religious predictions about the year 2012 !

In regard to the Higgs Boson, and my underlying reason for posting this thread, one point appears to be undeniably true in regard to 'modern science'. That point is that Newton's theories, Faraday's theories, Bohr's theories etc. are ALL totally unable to explain the existance of newly acquired data both in the macro ( cosmological ) and micro (particle physics). In other words, the newly acquired data is essentially proving how LITTLE we actually know about the way things work !!! It is really only Einstein's theories (and subsequent ones building on Einstein's theories i.e. Zwicky's 'dark matter' theory, superstrings and M-Theory. the Higgs field/particle theory etc.) that offer the possibility of a more complete understanding.

The LHC now represents the first serious chance to take a step in this new direction i.e. Einstein's 'Theory of Everything'. However there are also those who point out the risk of human 'meddling' with things we do not understand.

~

G-Real
09-13-2008, 03:46 PM
The LHC now represents the first serious chance to take a step in this new direction i.e. Einstein's 'Theory of Everything'. However there are also those who point out the risk of human 'meddling' with things we do not understand.


true, but humans have always meddled in things that we do not understand, from prehistoric times and fire, to today and the cosmos.....it happens all the time.

Is there a chance something could happen with the LHC yes, there is a change......

But there is also the same chance the a blackhole will "appear" before you and suck you into it and be gone forever......

There are many things we don't understand, and are just now beginning to grasp, or look at, and the potential for that is amazing...

Paris
09-13-2008, 04:20 PM
The presence of G-d is just as valid a theory as anything else. They're even calling what they're looking for "the G-d particle." If it's legitimate to believe in the Higgs boson giving mass to matter, even though we haven't seen it and can't prove that it's there, then it's just as legitimate to believe in an intelligent Creator.

The nick name "The God Particle" is a tongue in cheek reference to the implications of the study, origins of the universe and all. The title is like referring to Stripperweb as the "Stripper Bible".

Melonie
09-13-2008, 04:24 PM
There are many things we don't understand, and are just now beginning to grasp, or look at, and the potential for that is amazing...

I'm in total agreement. Everything must evolve, and the LHC could be an instrument of that evolution - as well as an implement of potential destruction. But either way IMHO humanity needs to take the step.

Jay Zeno
09-13-2008, 04:26 PM
However, I did not feel the need to point out that the 'loons' supposed 4 year 'incubation period' prior to the destruction of the earth also obviously appears to coincide with various religious and non-religious predictions about the year 2012 !
1. I didn't say loons. I said "fringe."
2. What are the non-religious predictions about the year 2012? I'm not familiar with those.
3. Without crunching it, it looks to me like they made the numbers coincide by constructing backwards. In other words, "Let's find the numbers that translate 6 days into 16 billion years, and then that proves our hypothesis." Uh, no. It proves that you can find numbers to make it up.


It is really only Einstein's theories (and subsequent ones building on Einstein's theories i.e. Zwicky's 'dark matter' theory, superstrings and M-Theory. the Higgs field/particle theory etc.) that offer the possibility of a more complete understanding.
Well, true. That's what we've been saying all along. Only Newton's look into gravity allowed for a more complete understanding. Only Einstein's look into quantum physics allowed for a more complete understanding.

Now, both of these gentlemen may have actually gotten some substantial things wrong, but the important thing is that they sparked further inquiry.


The LHC now represents the first serious chance to take a step in this new direction i.e. Einstein's 'Theory of Everything'. ~
Einstein never successfuly developed a Theory of Everything (or "unified field theory," as it was termed back then) where the math worked. Perhaps if he'd had access to the wider range of knowledge that we now have, as well as the potential of knowledge from the LHC, he would've had a a better time developing it.

Paris
09-13-2008, 04:33 PM
Not that I believe in purposes but since people seem to like the idea that there is a purpose, for all I know our purpose (whatever that means) is to leave the nest. The Universe is vast and there are no lack of resources in it, but they are finite on Earth. For all I know the next logical step in human evolution is space travel and colonizing space around us. We may fight that the way children fear growing up and leaving home, but future generations may look back on Earth they way most of us look back on the the days when our ancestors were living in caves. Interesting from a historical perspective but it doesn't mean we were "meant" to live in caves forever.

Ooooooo! I like this theory. Like we are in some kind of cosmic egg and when the human race is ready to "hatch" after it getting too crowded, we will start chipping away at our cosmic shell until we explode into the next world.

And maybe, just maybe the creation of black holes are how we will chip away at our confining eggshell.

Melonie
09-13-2008, 05:05 PM
'loon' was in reference to xdamage's post, where the term was first used in connection with LHC doom prophets.

as to non-religious prophecies about 2012, well let's see ...

Nostradamus Century 2 Quatrain 62, which involves 'thirst, famine, blood, with comet overhead'

the Dogon tribe from Mali, which involves seemingly impossible native knowledge of the Sirius solar system which they explain as having been given to them by 'ancient astronauts' - with a supposed return of those 'ancient astronauts' being imminent (i.e. 2012)

you've got Sitchin's '12th planet', which involves a supposed Sumerian identified extra 'planet' in a highly ellipitical orbit which brings it back through the Sol system ever 3600 years or so (i.e. 2012)

again I'm not supporting the validity of any of this stuff ... just pointing out that that such prophecies are out there and they seem to focus around the date 2012 in the same way that the Mayan and religious prophecies also do.

Melonie
09-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Ooooooo! I like this theory. Like we are in some kind of cosmic egg and when the human race is ready to "hatch" after it getting too crowded, we will start chipping away at our cosmic shell until we explode into the next world.

I like this theory too ... because it seems to be an evolutionary replay of the emigration of many 'old world' peoples to the 'new world' in the 15-1600's.

Jay Zeno
09-13-2008, 10:00 PM
as to non-religious prophecies about 2012, well let's see ...Got it. I assumed "non-religious" to mean "scientific." I see now that wasn't what was intended. My bad.

xdamage
09-14-2008, 11:29 AM
...However, I did not feel the need to point out that the 'loons' supposed 4 year 'incubation period' prior to the destruction of the earth also obviously appears to coincide with various religious and non-religious predictions about the year 2012 ...

I assume doomsday people know about the 2012 Mayan thing. It is not news to those who are love doomsday prophecies and he simply adjusted his doomsday prophecy to match. That is more logical then assuming it means anything more then that.

DB Cooper
09-24-2008, 08:12 AM
Hadron Collider halted for months (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7626944.stm)

Was it a lawsuit? Fear of a black hole? Maybe they were afraid of fulfilling the prophecies? Of unleashing forces they couldn't control?

Nothing so dramatic

(snip)
He said: "A full investigation is still under way but the most likely cause seems to be a faulty electrical connection between two of the magnets which probably melted, leading to a mechanical failure.
(end)

You'd think 10 billion dollars would buy better workmanship or quality control than that :-\ Hope they got a warranty

jessica0585
09-24-2008, 08:19 AM
^^^ its just not meant to be...i hope it can never be fixed

Yekhefah
09-24-2008, 08:45 AM
I hope it can't be fixed either. However, K pointed out that they're probably just saying this so people will stop attacking the machine. I think he's right.

leilanicandy
09-24-2008, 09:40 AM
I wonder would such a experiment cause the crops to die out faster and cause world hunger. Scientist are performing underneath the ground,

jester214
09-24-2008, 09:47 AM
It'll be fixed, and it better be fixed! The amount of money spent on this thing, something good better come out of it.

Madcap
09-24-2008, 04:34 PM
“Our earth is degenerate in these latter days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching,” attributed to an Assyrian stone tablet of about 2800 B.C.

::)

Wake me before the asteroid hits.

TheSexKitten
09-24-2008, 05:01 PM
I wonder would such a experiment cause the crops to die out faster and cause world hunger.

:confused: what???

xdamage
09-25-2008, 10:45 AM
Wait. Hubble had a problem... complex machine. Fixed.

Your car will likely break down at some point as will every other electrical and mechanical device you depend on. Not meant to be or... oh wait, human bodies break down too as do animal bodies. One way or another complex machines and systems are imperfect and will fail eventually, but chances are nobody believes these other things weren't meant to be because of failures.