View Full Version : Does anyone know what this star could mean?
Raziel
07-17-2020, 11:44 PM
I’m sorry, but you really gloss over a lot, and forget or simply take into account that Christianity has a long lineage of taking that exact same course of action to an extreme. Building churches on grounds which were once temples of other faiths. If that’s not trolling to an extreme, then tell me what it is, then?
Then there is, of course, the manner of dates which “Christian” holidays happen to fall on, and even the common visual image of Satan - nowhere in Scripture is such an image described. That image is largely derived from Pan.
And speaking of whitewashing, there’s the story of the Puritans. “They came to the New World for religious freedom and escape persecution”, you’re told. No, they came here because Europe wasn’t content to simply let them murder their way through Europe for the sake of imposing their denomination on everyone else (it regardless a long-standing history of exactly that happening).
Hun, i want to preface this with this: Im not trying to piss you off.
If your talking about Christmas, Christians didn't steal it. Lots of religions have holidays around then, it isn't just Christians. It makes sense, that's when everybody's down! It's just the Winter Solstice. A lot of folks make a holiday around there, the Romans did it (Saturnalia), so did the celts (Yule). I really don't think the Christians STOLE it. Everybody else did it so why not them.
Clarification: That's the only part of your post i am disagreeing with, only that. The rest i agree with.
jack0177057
07-18-2020, 03:39 AM
I didn't choose to be white and I would never contribute or support any organization involved in slavery, lynching, etc.. In most cases, Christians are Christian by choice, which there is nothing wrong with, but many Christians are willing to financially support the horrible things their leaders and clergy do. I personally know a lawyer who has been involved in many cases against the Catholic Church, and the Church has made an all out effort avoid compensating those who were victimized by their priests as children, as well as to protect their priests.
99% of those Catholic pedophile priests were white men and 99% of the child molesters in the US are white men. 99% of the attorneys that defend them are white men. So, why are you hating on the Catholic church and not on white men? These pedophiles could have just as easily been pedophile teachers, athletic coaches, police officers, uncles, etc. The Catholic church did not make them pedophiles. They used the Catholic church to hide under the pretense of religious celibacy and because the position of priest gave them access to children, just like they could have used a teaching or athletic coaching position to gain access to kids. The Catholic Church was just a convenient place for these sick bastards, like Penn State was a convenient place for Jerry Sandusky and USA gymnastics was a convenient place for Lawrence Gerard Nassar.
With your taxes, you support police officers that stop people for driving while black, and until recently, have been able to kill blacks with impunity. You support a government that puts innocent children in cages and lets them die of neglect. Have you any idea what this government has done in the name of holy democracy, but, really just to protect American business interests abroad? In South and Central America, we have toppled democratically elected leaders because they were sympathetic to the poor and we had an irrational fear of communist sympathizers, so we would replace them with ruthless and corrupt dictators that were friendly to US business interests. We live in one of the most corrupts countries in the planet, but, we call giving money to dirty politicians "campaign contributions", so, it sounds clean and less like corruption. You are probably patriotic and love being an American, despite the sordid history of evils and corruption of this country. I'm not anti-American, I just don't deceive myself about human institutions. They all carry baggage of corruption and evils.
If you don't like the idea of an organization calling itself, "the Church of Satan", why not just ignore them and pretend they don't exist? I doubt that you ever see them or come in contact with them.
I've never protested the Church of Satan and I could care less about them. Most of the individuals are probably very nice people. It came up in this thread and I voiced my opinion that it is disrespectful to create a new religion solely for the purpose of mocking and attacking another religion. That is all. I am not on a crusade against them.
jack0177057
07-18-2020, 04:15 AM
I’m sorry, but you really gloss over a lot, and forget or simply take into account that Christianity has a long lineage of taking that exact same course of action to an extreme. Building churches on grounds which were once temples of other faiths. If that’s not trolling to an extreme, then tell me what it is, then?
That's ancient history and all conquering people did the same thing. Pagans did it to other Pagans. If the Pagan Romans conquered your city, you can bet that the largest temple in your city would be reconfigured as a temple to Jupiter. The Romans accepted other gods and goddesses, but, their own took primacy.
Then there is, of course, the manner of dates which “Christian” holidays happen to fall on, and even the common visual image of Satan - nowhere in Scripture is such an image described. That image is largely derived from Pan.
When Pagans converted to Christianity, they did not want to give up their festivals, so, the Pagan holidays were reconfigured and rebranded. That is not stealing holidays, that is accommodating to new converts and adding another holiday to the calendar. It was a win-win.
Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and also to tempt Jesus. I'm sure he shows up in many other places, but, those are the two I can remember right now.
And speaking of whitewashing, there’s the story of the Puritans. “They came to the New World for religious freedom and escape persecution”, you’re told. No, they came here because Europe wasn’t content to simply let them murder their way through Europe for the sake of imposing their denomination on everyone else (it regardless a long-standing history of exactly that happening).
I do not know about Puritans, but, you could have also brought up the inquisition. Hate, ignorance, corruption, radicalization and narcissism infiltrates all human institutions. Things like the inquisition where more about politics and power than about Jesus. It was a betrayal of everything Jesus taught. When the church was at its zenith of power is when it was most corrupt. Positions of power attracts Machievellians that seek the power and pose as whatever is necessary to give them the path to power.
Raziel
07-18-2020, 06:45 AM
99% of those Catholic pedophile priests were white men and 99% of the child molesters in the US are white men. 99% of the attorneys that defend them are white men. So, why are you hating on the Catholic church and not on white men? These pedophiles could have just as easily been pedophile teachers, athletic coaches, police officers, uncles, etc. The Catholic church did not make them pedophiles. They used the Catholic church to hide under the pretense of religious celibacy and because the position of priest gave them access to children, just like they could have used a teaching or athletic coaching position to gain access to kids. The Catholic Church was just a convenient place for these sick bastards, like Penn State was a convenient place for Jerry Sandusky and USA gymnastics was a convenient place for Lawrence Gerard Nassar.
With your taxes, you support police officers that stop people for driving while black, and until recently, have been able to kill blacks with impunity. You support a government that puts innocent children in cages and lets them die of neglect. Have you any idea what this government has done in the name of holy democracy, but, really just to protect American business interests abroad? In South and Central America, we have toppled democratically elected leaders because they were sympathetic to the poor and we had an irrational fear of communist sympathizers, so we would replace them with ruthless and corrupt dictators that were friendly to US business interests. We live in one of the most corrupts countries in the planet, but, we call giving money to dirty politicians "campaign contributions", so, it sounds clean and less like corruption. You are probably patriotic and love being an American, despite the sordid history of evils and corruption of this country. I'm not anti-American, I just don't deceive myself about human institutions. They all carry baggage of corruption and evils.
I've never protested the Church of Satan and I could care less about them. Most of the individuals are probably very nice people. It came up in this thread and I voiced my opinion that it is disrespectful to create a new religion solely for the purpose of mocking and attacking another religion. That is all. I am not on a crusade against them.
Well that was well written.
That's ancient history and all conquering people did the same thing. Pagans did it to other Pagans. If the Pagan Romans conquered your city, you can bet that the largest temple in your city would be reconfigured as a temple to Jupiter. The Romans accepted other gods and goddesses, but, their own took primacy.
Honestly the Romans didn't do that. They were remarkably religiously tolerant of their colonies. They believed that the local Gods were just their own Gods under a different name. Caesar, for example, only outlawed Human sacrifice when he took over Gaul. He was utterly ruthless in everything else (including fucking 16 year old Cleopatra when he was in his 50's, not that she minded). He didn't change anything else. The Celts were still allowed to worship Taranis (Storm God) and Epona (Goddess of Horses)
Jack, i'm very understanding of your beliefs. You're a devout Catholic. So is my entire family. I consider myself an Agnostic (NOT an Atheist). I'm the odd man out.
AChildOfBoredom
07-18-2020, 02:00 PM
Let me get back to this when I’m on my computer rather than trying to type it out on a phone screen. Plus I’m sitting in a tow truck waiting for my next call, so I’d rather not start and be interrupted.
eagle2
07-18-2020, 02:01 PM
99% of those Catholic pedophile priests were white men and 99% of the child molesters in the US are white men. 99% of the attorneys that defend them are white men. So, why are you hating on the Catholic church and not on white men? These pedophiles could have just as easily been pedophile teachers, athletic coaches, police officers, uncles, etc. The Catholic church did not make them pedophiles. They used the Catholic church to hide under the pretense of religious celibacy and because the position of priest gave them access to children, just like they could have used a teaching or athletic coaching position to gain access to kids. The Catholic Church was just a convenient place for these sick bastards, like Penn State was a convenient place for Jerry Sandusky and USA gymnastics was a convenient place for Lawrence Gerard Nassar.
I'm not blaming the Catholic Church because their priests raped children. I'm blaming the Church because they knew their priests were raping children and did nothing to stop it, and because they did everything they could to avoid compensating their victims. When your church received complaints about what their priests were doing, instead of reporting them to law enforcement, they transferred them somewhere else where they could rape more children. I find what Penn State did with Jerry Sandusky and what USA Gymnastics did with Larry Nasser just as abhorrent as what the Catholic Church did, but with the Catholic Church, it was on a much larger scale. Not only was it happening all over the country, but all over the world.
With your taxes, you support police officers that stop people for driving while black, and until recently, have been able to kill blacks with impunity. You support a government that puts innocent children in cages and lets them die of neglect. Have you any idea what this government has done in the name of holy democracy, but, really just to protect American business interests abroad? In South and Central America, we have toppled democratically elected leaders because they were sympathetic to the poor and we had an irrational fear of communist sympathizers, so we would replace them with ruthless and corrupt dictators that were friendly to US business interests. We live in one of the most corrupts countries in the planet, but, we call giving money to dirty politicians "campaign contributions", so, it sounds clean and less like corruption. You are probably patriotic and love being an American, despite the sordid history of evils and corruption of this country. I'm not anti-American, I just don't deceive myself about human institutions. They all carry baggage of corruption and evils.
I don't have a choice about paying taxes. If I don't, I go to jail. Catholics have a choice about whether or not they contribute to their church. I don't "support a government that puts innocent children in cages and lets them die of neglect". I detest Donald Trump and I hope he is held accountable for his abhorrent actions as well as the many crimes he's committed. I'm patriotic to American principles of freedom and democracy, not our government. I very strongly oppose many things our government does and has done.
Raziel
07-19-2020, 01:03 AM
Let me get back to this when I’m on my computer rather than trying to type it out on a phone screen. Plus I’m sitting in a tow truck waiting for my next call, so I’d rather not start and be interrupted.
Do your thing, Hun.
SnuffleUffleGrass
07-21-2020, 01:42 AM
Totally relevant to this discussion- adult movie star Chasey Lain's great grandfather was a Freemason. & One of her female relatives was an Eastern Star.
Just super amusing. Some people are meant to stand out in life....
Djoser
07-21-2020, 01:29 PM
Some great posts in this thread, brought back from the dead ;D
(Pun intended sorry ha ha).
It would be interesting to see which religion has caused the most death and suffering, through excessive dogmatic persecution, wars 'in the name of' that religion; or in the case of the Aztecs and others involving human sacrifice and/or penance rituals. My money is on the Christians, which is kinda sad given what the real Yeshua was likely all about. But then the fostering of early Christianity on the Roman Empire was possibly the greatest PR stunt ever pulled. Not exactly the way he would have wanted it, I suspect.
Speaking of Aztecs and Christianity, it's been asserted, with good reason, that one of the main reasons that the Spanish were able to dominate and pacify the MesoAmerican Precolumbians was the similarity of the religions. Strong emphasis on sacrifice and the multitude of patron saints (being effectively quite polytheistic) being two of the most important similarities.
eagle2
07-21-2020, 01:47 PM
How would crimes committed by nazis be classified? There's no question that 2,000 years of antisemitism coming from the Christian church had an influence on hitler and his followers, but hitler wasn't acting directly for the church.
Djoser
07-21-2020, 01:53 PM
How would crimes committed by nazis be classified? There's no question that 2,000 years of antisemitism coming from the Christian church had an influence on hitler and his followers, but hitler wasn't acting directly for the church.
Interesting question. I never considered that to be religious, but rather racial persecution. But he did tie into the pre-existing religion based bias, for sure.
eagle2
07-21-2020, 02:02 PM
Yes, there was a lot of antisemitism in Europe at the time that influenced hitler. Some of it even came from America. Henry Ford put out a lot of antisemitic literature, and was admired by hitler.
Djoser
07-21-2020, 02:54 PM
Yes, there was a lot of antisemitism in Europe at the time that influenced hitler. Some of it even came from America. Henry Ford put out a lot of antisemitic literature, and was admired by hitler.
I read a pretty good book about the Ford/Hitler connection. Will try to find the title and post it later.
While Ford did achieve some impressive things, he was a serious asshole, above and beyond the fascist leanings.
For one thing, he followed the same course as our not-so-esteemed 'president', and systematically, deliberately refused to pay creditors. He was notorious in Detroit industrial circles for this practice.
He had an agenda beyond being a cheap motherfucker though--his favorite trick was to contract out to businesses in some form of competition with his own, then after they had invested time and labor they could not afford (without getting paid), stiff them, and thus force them to close.
Raziel
07-22-2020, 01:46 AM
How would crimes committed by nazis be classified? There's no question that 2,000 years of antisemitism coming from the Christian church had an influence on hitler and his followers, but hitler wasn't acting directly for the church.
I dunno. If you went back in time to 1933 and threw a rock, you'd probably hit someone who was guilty. There was a general air of antisemitism back then. It had nothing to do with religion. It had everything to do with people wanting a scapegoat for all their problems. If you lived in a village or something, you might not be guilty. What the fuck is a village girl supposed to do against HITLER? But most of them were guilty of the greatest crime in human history.
eagle2
07-22-2020, 07:16 PM
It did. There was a great deal of antisemitism coming from the Christian Church. At the time, it was widely accepted by Christians, that all Jews were collectively responsible for killing Jesus. Martin Luther had written many abhorrent things about Jews, which had a great deal of influence on Germans at the time.
From:
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/luthers-jewish-problem/
In 1946, Julius Streicher was on trial for his life. He had published the antisemitic newspaper Der Stürmer, and had been captured at the end of World War II. The Allies put him on trial alongside 23 other prominent Nazis at the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg. During the trial Streicher was asked: “Witness, what aims did you pursue with your speeches and your articles in Der Stürmer?” Streicher replied:
I did not intend to agitate or inflame but to enlighten. Antisemitic publications have existed in Germany for centuries. . . . In the book The Jews and Their Lies, Dr. Martin Luther writes that the Jews are a serpent’s brood and one should burn down their synagogues and destroy them. Dr. Martin Luther would very probably sit in my place in the defendants’ dock today, if this book had been taken into consideration by the Prosecution.
Streicher was a propagandist who devoted his life to spreading slander and falsehood, but on this occasion he was telling the truth.
Djoser
07-22-2020, 07:36 PM
...it was widely accepted by Christians, that all Jews were collectively responsible for killing Jesus.
Many cities had serious trouble with the Crusades passing through on the way to 'free' the Holy Land.
"In parts of France and Germany, Jews were perceived as just as much of an enemy as Muslims: they were held responsible for the crucifixion, and they were more immediately visible than the distant Muslims. Many people wondered why they should travel thousands of miles to fight non-believers when there were already non-believers closer to home."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres
eagle2
07-22-2020, 07:42 PM
The Crusaders also massacred Jews, along with Muslims, after they conquered Jerusalem.
Raziel
07-22-2020, 10:27 PM
Yup. In the first crusade, they massacred everyone in Jerusalem.
AChildOfBoredom
07-24-2020, 07:27 AM
That's ancient history and all conquering people did the same thing.
It’s ancient history because they were forced to stop. Even then, that wasn’t necessarily the end of it, the nature of it just looked different, e.g., mainline churches dismissed the Lord’s Resistance Army as a fringe group and some stated they don’t advocate things like bombings of Planned Parenthood, but they stopped short of condemning it (and a number of mainline churches even supported it overtly), when Greek Neo-Nazis participated in the massacre at Srebrenecia, it was their Orthodox faith which was where the Greeks found an affinity with the Serbs. And while religion has taken the back burner to the continuation of the conflict, it still serves as the dividing line and was the point of origin for the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Then, of course, you still have those who don’t get hung up on subtlety. While they may be a fringe group, there are organizations advocating for Old Testament style governance in this country, and there’ve been a number of federal politicians endorsed by and connected to them, particularly among the neocons of the 90s and 2000s.
I never really understood the Anabaptist stance against militarism. I’ve heard the claim made that it’s a more ‘pure’ form of subservience, but to me that’s just pure bulkshit. You have religious based wars because you have war based religions. Even in the transition from Old Testament to New Testament, people have found ways to use Scripture to justify it, not to mention it all culminates in a massive battle at the end of it anyhow.
When Pagans converted to Christianity, they did not want to give up their festivals, so, the Pagan holidays were reconfigured and rebranded. That is not stealing holidays, that is accommodating to new converts and adding another holiday to the calendar. It was a win-win.
That’s a bit of whitewashing there. You’d have to overlook that much of that conversion was done by fire and sword, and it was less about being accommodating than it was about concern that allowing those festivals to remain as is might invoke a sense of atavism which would lead to rebellion against the church.
Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden and also to tempt Jesus. I'm sure he shows up in many other places, but, those are the two I can remember right now.
In the form of a serpent, not in the image of Pan.
I do not know about Puritans, but, you could have also brought up the inquisition. Hate, ignorance, corruption, radicalization and narcissism infiltrates all human institutions. Things like the inquisition where more about politics and power than about Jesus. It was a betrayal of everything Jesus taught. When the church was at its zenith of power is when it was most corrupt. Positions of power attracts Machievellians that seek the power and pose as whatever is necessary to give them the path to power.
When you bring up the Inquisition, Christians tend to respond by saying, “Oh, that’s those Catholics”. Which I suppose I can understand to an extent, as the Protestant Reformation created quite a rift in the Western Church, though it didn’t bring a peaceful existence among those who broke off from the Catholic Church and into the Protestant church, either… the Anabaptists - a product of the Radical Reformation which followed on the heels of the Protestant Reformation - found themselves under intense persecution by their ‘fellow’ Protestants, and again, we have the case of the Puritans, known for abhorring sex and loving violence (which remains a thing to this day).
It would be interesting to see which religion has caused the most death and suffering, through excessive dogmatic persecution, wars 'in the name of' that religion; or in the case of the Aztecs and others involving human sacrifice and/or penance rituals.
It would be tough, especially in the matter of indirect causes. For example, there are a number of religions which reject modern medicine, and that has led to a lack of medical treatment which could’ve saved lives. So,if it happened in a family of those practicing so-called Christian Science, do we count that, and does that count against the greater whole of Christianity or are they broken down by denomination? You’re looking at invoking a HUGE pissing match there.
Speaking of Aztecs and Christianity, it's been asserted, with good reason, that one of the main reasons that the Spanish were able to dominate and pacify the MesoAmerican Precolumbians was the similarity of the religions. Strong emphasis on sacrifice and the multitude of patron saints (being effectively quite polytheistic) being two of the most important similarities.
The depopulation of the Aztecs due to the introduction of new diseases which they had no immunity to undoubtedly helped with that, as well.
How would crimes committed by nazis be classified? There's no question that 2,000 years of antisemitism coming from the Christian church had an influence on hitler and his followers, but hitler wasn't acting directly for the church.
That would be interesting. While the SS notoriously pushed atavism and themes related to pre-Christian religions of Europe, Hitler never dropped his membership in the Catholic Church. Though the former ties more to Himmler, it had to have at least some degree of tacit approval by Hitler. Then again, it may have just been Hitler playing all sides… it was the Catholic Church under Pope Pius XII which aided many members of the Nazi party in escaping from Europe at the end of the European Campaign. Hitler had a history of doing that… in his rise to power and throughout his reign, he worked closely with Capitalists in spite of the anti-capitalistic nature of the NSDAP, and the “Aryan” Waffen SS ended up being perhaps the most ethnically diverse fighting force of the war.
rickdugan
07-24-2020, 09:20 AM
It's not just individual Christians acting like assholes. There are entire denominations, as well as the Catholic Church, persecuting others who don't adhere to their beliefs, especially gays, as well as sex workers and adult entertainers. I've read of numerous accounts of Christians trying to shut down strip clubs. Some gays have been driven to suicide by Christians. Besides persecuting others, the Catholic Church protects pedophile priests who have committed horrible crimes against children. Any offense felt by Christians over an organization calling itself the "Church of Satan" is very insignificant compared to the harm caused by so many adherents to the Christian religion.
We get to persecute people? Shoot, our priest never told us that! I need to get down to my parish right now and find out where I can sign up to be on the persecution squad. ;)
I think you'll find bad apples in any religious organization, but overall I would contend that most of the largest Christian denominations have done a lot more good than harm in modern times. If you go to almost any blighted urban area in this country, the overwhelming amount of outreach to the homeless and other at risk communities is being run by religious institutions. The amount of good that Christians do in the world every single day is simply too staggering to fully contemplate, ranging from soup kitchens, food pantries, homeless and domestic abuse shelters, delivery of medical supplies, clean water initiatives in third world countries - and all of this is just the tip of the iceberg.
By way of one example, the Catholic Church is the largest charitable institution in the world. Its presence is felt not only in many blighted U.S. communities, with food, shelter, help with rent and home expenses, safe schools and immigrant services, but also in its missionary work throughout the world. In just the past decade, the Catholic Church has probably saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives and improved the health and well being of countless more.
Without the charitable work of so many Christian churches and organizations, this country and many others would be a far worse place for those in need. So when we have a discussion like this, replete with dramatic hyperbole and other broad sweeping accusations, let's understand that there is a more complete picture to be seen. I'm not saying that any of these organizations is perfect, very much including the Catholic Church, but there is a much more complete story to be told.
eagle2
07-24-2020, 11:26 AM
We get to persecute people? Shoot, our priest never told us that! I need to get down to my parish right now and find out where I can sign up to be on the persecution squad. ;)
If you were one of those people being persecuted by your church, you wouldn't be taking this so lightly. For close to 2,000 years Jews were persecuted by your church because of this insane belief that people were somehow responsible for events that took place before they were born. It wasn't until 1965 that your church changed its position and acknowledged that all Jews, living and dead, weren't responsible for the death of Jesus. Today your church's targets are gays, abortion clinics, and sexually active women who don't want to have children. Your church opposes gay marriage and every law and proposed law granting gays basic rights. Your church has expelled children from its schools, because their parents were in same-sex marriages. Your church consistently opposes contraception for all women, as well as abortions. Abortion providers have even been murdered by members of your church.
If you want to sign up for the persecution squad, just join any anti-abortion organization that protests at abortion clinics.
I think you'll find bad apples in any religious organization, but overall I would contend that most of the largest Christian denominations have done a lot more good than harm in modern times. If you go to almost any blighted urban area in this country, the overwhelming amount of outreach to the homeless and other at risk communities is being run by religious institutions. The amount of good that Christians do in the world every single day is simply too staggering to fully contemplate, ranging from soup kitchens, food pantries, homeless and domestic abuse shelters, delivery of medical supplies, clean water initiatives in third world countries - and all of this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Your church doesn't have just a few bad apples. Your entire church hierarchy has been protecting and defending priests who have sexually abused children, and this continues to this day. In Pennsylvania alone, your church covered up abuse by more than 300 priests.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html
In this country, a significant amount of funding for your church's charitable organizations comes from the government, while a significant amount of donations your church receives, goes to defending priests who have sexually abused children. In many cases, your church's policies have made things worse for domestic abuse victims, rather than better, by opposing divorce. I remember reading an article about the horrible situation so many women in Ireland were in, because divorce was prohibited. I read of women going to nuns or priests asking for help with domestic abuse, because they could not divorce their husband, and their response was, "that's a cross you'll have to bear". It wasn't until 1995 that divorce became legal in Ireland. Contraception was also outlawed in Ireland, until fairly recently.
By way of one example, the Catholic Church is the largest charitable institution in the world. Its presence is felt not only in many blighted U.S. communities, with food, shelter, help with rent and home expenses, safe schools and immigrant services, but also in its missionary work throughout the world. In just the past decade, the Catholic Church has probably saved hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives and improved the health and well being of countless more.
The leading cause of death for young women around the world is illegal abortion. Your church adamantly opposes making abortions safe and legal, which could save the lives of so many young women, as well as contraception, which could greatly reduce the number of women getting abortions. Not only does your church oppose contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies, your church opposes the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. Your church would rather see more people die from AIDS, than have people use condoms to prevent it.
Without the charitable work of so many Christian churches and organizations, this country and many others would be a far worse place for those in need. So when we have a discussion like this, replete with dramatic hyperbole and other broad sweeping accusations, let's understand that there is a more complete picture to be seen. I'm not saying that any of these organizations is perfect, very much including the Catholic Church, but there is a much more complete story to be told.
The harm caused by your church's many cruel policies and beliefs far outweighs any good they do. Donating to secular charities who don't place their religious beliefs above the lives of others would do far more good than donating churches who are more concerned about imposing their beliefs on others than actually helping them.
Raziel
07-24-2020, 11:49 AM
It’s ancient history because they were forced to stop. Even then, that wasn’t necessarily the end of it, the nature of it just looked different, e.g., mainline churches dismissed the Lord’s Resistance Army as a fringe group and some stated they don’t advocate things like bombings of Planned Parenthood, but they stopped short of condemning it (and a number of mainline churches even supported it overtly), when Greek Neo-Nazis participated in the massacre at Srebrenecia, it was their Orthodox faith which was where the Greeks found an affinity with the Serbs. And while religion has taken the back burner to the continuation of the conflict, it still serves as the dividing line and was the point of origin for the conflict in Northern Ireland.
Then, of course, you still have those who don’t get hung up on subtlety. While they may be a fringe group, there are organizations advocating for Old Testament style governance in this country, and there’ve been a number of federal politicians endorsed by and connected to them, particularly among the neocons of the 90s and 2000s.
I never really understood the Anabaptist stance against militarism. I’ve heard the claim made that it’s a more ‘pure’ form of subservience, but to me that’s just pure bulkshit. You have religious based wars because you have war based religions. Even in the transition from Old Testament to New Testament, people have found ways to use Scripture to justify it, not to mention it all culminates in a massive battle at the end of it anyhow.
That’s a bit of whitewashing there. You’d have to overlook that much of that conversion was done by fire and sword, and it was less about being accommodating than it was about concern that allowing those festivals to remain as is might invoke a sense of atavism which would lead to rebellion against the church.
In the form of a serpent, not in the image of Pan.
When you bring up the Inquisition, Christians tend to respond by saying, “Oh, that’s those Catholics”. Which I suppose I can understand to an extent, as the Protestant Reformation created quite a rift in the Western Church, though it didn’t bring a peaceful existence among those who broke off from the Catholic Church and into the Protestant church, either… the Anabaptists - a product of the Radical Reformation which followed on the heels of the Protestant Reformation - found themselves under intense persecution by their ‘fellow’ Protestants, and again, we have the case of the Puritans, known for abhorring sex and loving violence (which remains a thing to this day).
It would be tough, especially in the matter of indirect causes. For example, there are a number of religions which reject modern medicine, and that has led to a lack of medical treatment which could’ve saved lives. So,if it happened in a family of those practicing so-called Christian Science, do we count that, and does that count against the greater whole of Christianity or are they broken down by denomination? You’re looking at invoking a HUGE pissing match there.
The depopulation of the Aztecs due to the introduction of new diseases which they had no immunity to undoubtedly helped with that, as well.
That would be interesting. While the SS notoriously pushed atavism and themes related to pre-Christian religions of Europe, Hitler never dropped his membership in the Catholic Church. Though the former ties more to Himmler, it had to have at least some degree of tacit approval by Hitler. Then again, it may have just been Hitler playing all sides… it was the Catholic Church under Pope Pius XII which aided many members of the Nazi party in escaping from Europe at the end of the European Campaign. Hitler had a history of doing that… in his rise to power and throughout his reign, he worked closely with Capitalists in spite of the anti-capitalistic nature of the NSDAP, and the “Aryan” Waffen SS ended up being perhaps the most ethnically diverse fighting force of the war.
I have to say, you are well spoken.
rickdugan
07-24-2020, 12:11 PM
If you were one of those people being persecuted by your church, you wouldn't be taking this so lightly. For close to 2,000 years Jews were persecuted by your church because of this insane belief that people were somehow responsible for events that took place before they were born. It wasn't until 1965 that your church changed its position and acknowledged that all Jews, living and dead, weren't responsible for the death of Jesus. Today your church's targets are gays, abortion clinics, and sexually active women who don't want to have children. Your church opposes gay marriage and every law and proposed law granting gays basic rights. Your church has expelled children from its schools, because their parents were in same-sex marriages. Your church consistently opposes contraception for all women, as well as abortions. Abortion providers have even been murdered by members of your church.
If you want to sign up for the persecution squad, just join any anti-abortion organization that protests at abortion clinics.
Your church doesn't have just a few bad apples. Your entire church hierarchy has been protecting and defending priests who have sexually abused children, and this continues to this day. In Pennsylvania alone, your church covered up abuse by more than 300 priests.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/14/us/catholic-church-sex-abuse-pennsylvania.html
In this country, a significant amount of funding for your church's charitable organizations comes from the government, while a significant amount of donations your church receives, goes to defending priests who have sexually abused children. In many cases, your church's policies have made things worse for domestic abuse victims, rather than better, by opposing divorce. I remember reading an article about the horrible situation so many women in Ireland were in, because divorce was prohibited. I read of women going to nuns or priests asking for help with domestic abuse, because they could not divorce their husband, and their response was, "that's a cross you'll have to bear". It wasn't until 1995 that divorce became legal in Ireland. Contraception was also outlawed in Ireland, until fairly recently.
The leading cause of death for young women around the world is illegal abortion. Your church adamantly opposes making abortions safe and legal, which could save the lives of so many young women, as well as contraception, which could greatly reduce the number of women getting abortions. Not only does your church oppose contraception to prevent unwanted pregnancies, your church opposes the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. Your church would rather see more people die from AIDS, than have people use condoms to prevent it.
The harm caused by your church's many cruel policies and beliefs far outweighs any good they do. Donating to secular charities who don't place their religious beliefs above the lives of others would do far more good than donating churches who are more concerned about imposing their beliefs on others than actually helping them.
Eagle, are we going to go back to the Crusades now in our digging up of ancient history? Is there any organization, religious or otherwise, that has been around for as long as the Catholic church that doesn't have some dark periods? Worse though, you bootstrapped ancient stuff to semi modern religious dogma which has been changed to try to show some continuous persecution narrative, lol.
And yes eagle, a few bad apples. As of last count, there are over 414,000 active priests in the U.S. The number of priests in the U.S. that served at some point over the decades that that we have reported abuse information is easily in the millions. Most everyday Catholics are horrified by those allegations and the way that the Church handled them have demanded changes, which have finally been made. But when it is all said and done it represents an almost immeasurably tiny percentage of priests that dedicate their entire lives to serving others. Most Catholics have never come across this issue firsthand with their Parish priests. Few of us have also met anyone who purportedly murdered someone at an abortion clinic, lol, nor would that concept be tolerated by pretty much any Catholic.
As far as your comment about government funding, you're wrong. The overwhelming majority of money funding all of these efforts comes from the 10s of millions of everyday Catholics in the U.S. and is used at all levels, from local level to Diocese level efforts to international relief efforts. Good luck replacing all of what I outlined above with other private charities, many of which chew up a good chunk of their funding on administrative costs. The religious nature of these organizations and parishioner accountability is precisely what drives them to use the money efficiently, to go into places where others cannot go because of employee liability exposure, to guarantee steady funding for safe schools, etc., etc.
As far as abortion, gay marriage and contraception, those are topics for another day in a different forum as there are political elements that are not appropriate here. Most of this stems from a fundamental belief that all life is sacred, including unborn lives, and that every abortion averted is a life saved. Obviously you disagree as I'm sure do some others here. But to suggest that the Catholic Church does anything violent in advocating these positions is ludicrous.
eagle2
07-24-2020, 12:49 PM
As far as your comment about government funding, you're wrong. The overwhelming majority of money funding all of these efforts comes from the 10s of millions of everyday Catholics in the U.S. and is used at all levels, from local level to Diocese level efforts to international relief efforts.
From:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/24/catholic-church-collects-16-billion-in-us-contract/
The Church and related Catholic charities and schools have collected more than $1.6 billion since 2012 in U.S. contracts and grants in a far-reaching relationship that spans from school lunches for grammar school students to contracts across the globe to care for the poor and needy at the expense of Uncle Sam, a Washington Times review of federal spending records shows.
Note: This article is from 2015, so the $1.6 billion is from 2012 - 2014 or 2015.
Catholic Charities USA, the largest charitable organization run by the church, receives about 65 percent of its annual budget from state and federal governments, making it an arm of the federal welfare state, said Brian Anderson, a researcher with the Manhattan Institute.
rickdugan
07-24-2020, 01:15 PM
Eagle, Catholic Charities is just one small facet of everything done collectively in the U.S. by the Catholic Church. Each church has its own set of "ministries" which engage in a variety of direct charitable outreach activities. Then each Diocese (regional governing body) has its own set of missions and ministries and engages in a variety of charitable activities, including, notably, supporting the Diocesan schools serving at risk kids who would otherwise not have a safe school to attend.. Then there are a plethora of other Catholic run charitable institutions, all outside of Catholic Charities USA.
$1.6 billion is a pittance compared to what is spent nationwide on Catholic based charities and causes. Yes Catholic Charities USA is the largest single charity entity, but it represents a small portion of everything collectively done under the Catholic Church umbrella each year. It is the very decentralized nature of these activities that allows operating efficiency and direct outreach, often involving nothing but volunteers.
But what you posted was interesting. It is telling that the federal and state governments recognize that Catholic Charities USA can do direct community outreach more efficiently than they can do it for themselves. ;)
Raziel
07-25-2020, 02:39 PM
Rick, you are forgetting all the Catholic Priests that DON'T do that.
eagle2
07-26-2020, 11:05 AM
Eagle, Catholic Charities is just one small facet of everything done collectively in the U.S. by the Catholic Church. Each church has its own set of "ministries" which engage in a variety of direct charitable outreach activities. Then each Diocese (regional governing body) has its own set of missions and ministries and engages in a variety of charitable activities, including, notably, supporting the Diocesan schools serving at risk kids who would otherwise not have a safe school to attend.. Then there are a plethora of other Catholic run charitable institutions, all outside of Catholic Charities USA.
$1.6 billion is a pittance compared to what is spent nationwide on Catholic based charities and causes. Yes Catholic Charities USA is the largest single charity entity, but it represents a small portion of everything collectively done under the Catholic Church umbrella each year. It is the very decentralized nature of these activities that allows operating efficiency and direct outreach, often involving nothing but volunteers.
No, $1.6 billion is a significant amount of money, and most of the donations collected by the Church does not go towards charity. For the Vatican's charity, only 10% of donations are used for helping the poor.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/11/vatican-uses-donations-for-poor-to-fight-budget-deficit-report-says.html
A significant amount of money donated to the church, hundreds of millions of dollars, has gone to protecting priests who have sexually abused children, and buying silence from their victims.
But what you posted was interesting. It is telling that the federal and state governments recognize that Catholic Charities USA can do direct community outreach more efficiently than they can do it for themselves. ;)
I'm sure this has a lot more to do with your church's political power, than how well their charities are run.
eagle2
07-26-2020, 11:22 AM
Eagle, are we going to go back to the Crusades now in our digging up of ancient history? Is there any organization, religious or otherwise, that has been around for as long as the Catholic church that doesn't have some dark periods? Worse though, you bootstrapped ancient stuff to semi modern religious dogma which has been changed to try to show some continuous persecution narrative, lol.
Persecution of people by your church goes on to this day. Your church is leading the fight against the rights of gays and women.
And yes eagle, a few bad apples. As of last count, there are over 414,000 active priests in the U.S. The number of priests in the U.S. that served at some point over the decades that that we have reported abuse information is easily in the millions. Most everyday Catholics are horrified by those allegations and the way that the Church handled them have demanded changes, which have finally been made. But when it is all said and done it represents an almost immeasurably tiny percentage of priests that dedicate their entire lives to serving others. Most Catholics have never come across this issue firsthand with their Parish priests. Few of us have also met anyone who purportedly murdered someone at an abortion clinic, lol, nor would that concept be tolerated by pretty much any Catholic.
The issue isn't just that priests sexually abused children. The issue is that every single priest, bishop, and cardinal in your church, chose to protect the priests who were doing it. Not once did your church do what is right and stop it, and your church is still doing it. I know a lawyer who has been heavily involved in legal action against your church, and your church is still doing everything it can to protect criminal priests, and avoid paying victims. Most recently she had to go to court over a priest working at a daycare facility, after the priest had been prohibited from having contact with children.
As far as abortion, gay marriage and contraception, those are topics for another day in a different forum as there are political elements that are not appropriate here. Most of this stems from a fundamental belief that all life is sacred, including unborn lives, and that every abortion averted is a life saved. Obviously you disagree as I'm sure do some others here. But to suggest that the Catholic Church does anything violent in advocating these positions is ludicrous.
No, abortion and contraception are women's issues and gay rights are human rights issues. For many women, access to abortion and contraception are a matter of life and death. Your church does not believe all life is sacred. Opposition to abortion and contraception is about imposing religion on others, not concern for life. Your church would rather see a pregnant woman and her fetus die, than allow the woman to get an abortion. This has already happened in Ireland, where a woman was prohibited from getting an abortion, even though her life was endangered by the pregnancy, and the fetus had no chance of surviving. The woman ended up dying. In Brazil, a 9 year old girl became pregnant after being raped. Your church fought to prevent her from getting an abortion, even though giving birth at her age, would endanger her life. After the girl got an abortion, your church excommunicated the doctor who performed it. Your did not excommunicate the rapist. Your church also opposes the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. Your church would rather see more people die from AIDS.
I'm sorry to tell you, but by any standard, your church is an evil organization.
rickdugan
07-26-2020, 12:42 PM
Persecution of people by your church goes on to this day. Your church is leading the fight against the rights of gays and women.
The issue isn't just that priests sexually abused children. The issue is that every single priest, bishop, and cardinal in your church, chose to protect the priests who were doing it. Not once did your church do what is right and stop it, and your church is still doing it. I know a lawyer who has been heavily involved in legal action against your church, and your church is still doing everything it can to protect criminal priests, and avoid paying victims. Most recently she had to go to court over a priest working at a daycare facility, after the priest had been prohibited from having contact with children.
No, abortion and contraception are women's issues and gay rights are human rights issues. For many women, access to abortion and contraception are a matter of life and death. Your church does not believe all life is sacred. Opposition to abortion and contraception is about imposing religion on others, not concern for life. Your church would rather see a pregnant woman and her fetus die, than allow the woman to get an abortion. This has already happened in Ireland, where a woman was prohibited from getting an abortion, even though her life was endangered by the pregnancy, and the fetus had no chance of surviving. The woman ended up dying. In Brazil, a 9 year old girl became pregnant after being raped. Your church fought to prevent her from getting an abortion, even though giving birth at her age, would endanger her life. After the girl got an abortion, your church excommunicated the doctor who performed it. Your did not excommunicate the rapist. Your church also opposes the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. Your church would rather see more people die from AIDS.
I'm sorry to tell you, but by any standard, your church is an evil organization.
An organization that believes that all life is sacred, including unborn babies, is evil? An organization that literally saves countless lives and helps 10s of millions of starving, scared and desperate people worldwide every single year is evil? An organization that provides the only safe schools in many of our most blighted cities, especially in the northeast, is evil? Interesting. ;)
As far as the decisions to protect pedophile priests, I fully agree that the policies that led to it were not right. They have since been changed, in no small part due to outrage expressed by the 10s of millions of Catholics here in the U.S. But to imply that "every single priest, bishop, and cardinal" was involved in those decisions or in protecting those offenders is ridiculous, lol. You're trying to paint millions of clergy members in the U.S. with the same brush over the actions of a relative few. C'mon now.
As far as your claims of persecution, those are ridiculous too. At least you stopped using the Jews as your victim group and switched gears to another group, lol. In fact, the church has been crystal clear in modern times in its opposition of violence against, and criminal prosecution of, gays. With that said, I will concede that is has opposed legislation which, in its view, weakens the position of the nuclear family. Many U.S. Catholics have mixed views on these issues, myself included. It's a complicated situation to say the least.
Finally and once again eagle, this is not the forum for an abortion debate. There are reasons why the country is split pretty evenly down the middle on this topic. Proponents of abortion believe as you do while pro-lifers believe that it represents the killing of babies. Nothing we argue here is going to change anyone's view on this topic and this is not the appropriate forum for it. But your wild eyed anger and need to demonize an institution that is coming from a legitimately well intentioned place, whether you agree with its position or not, is a bit disturbing.
Raziel
07-26-2020, 12:59 PM
An organization that believes that all life is sacred, including unborn babies, is evil? An organization that literally saves countless lives and helps 10s of millions of starving, scared and desperate people worldwide every single year is evil? An organization that provides the only safe schools in many of our most blighted cities, especially in the northeast, is evil? Interesting. ;)
As far as the decisions to protect pedophile priests, I fully agree that the policies that led to it were not right. They have since been changed, in no small part due to outrage expressed by the 10s of millions of Catholics here in the U.S. But to imply that "every single priest, bishop, and cardinal" was involved in those decisions or in protecting those offenders is ridiculous, lol. You're trying to paint millions of clergy members in the U.S. with the same brush over the actions of a relative few. C'mon now.
As far as your claims of persecution, those are ridiculous too. At least you stopped using the Jews as your victim group and switched gears to another group, lol. In fact, the church has been crystal clear in modern times in its opposition of violence against, and criminal prosecution of, gays. With that said, I will concede that is has opposed legislation which, in its view, weakens the position of the nuclear family. Many U.S. Catholics have mixed views on these issues, myself included. It's a complicated situation to say the least.
Finally and once again eagle, this is not the forum for an abortion debate. There are reasons why the country is split pretty evenly down the middle on this topic. Proponents of abortion believe as you do while pro-lifers believe that it represents the killing of babies. Nothing we argue here is going to change anyone's view on this topic and this is not the appropriate forum for it. But your wild eyed anger and need to demonize an institution that is coming from a legitimately well intentioned place, whether you agree with its position or not, is a bit disturbing.
Some of them. But some of them do not believe in any of that.
There are a lot of priests who are good and just, but i'm sorry, not all of them. And you never know which one your going to get.
rickdugan
07-26-2020, 01:19 PM
Hey eagle, do you know how many households have used church food pantries at some point? In a study done in 2014, it was pegged at 22%. I'll bet it's much higher now with COVID-19. Heck, I'm guessing that people on this very board have used them, maybe even some run by the evil Catholic Church. ;)
https://lifewayresearch.com/2014/11/21/almost-a-quarter-of-american-families-have-turned-to-church-food-pantries-for-help-2/
I have been personally involved with one such endeavor sponsored by our evil Catholic Church, lol. Wanna' know what else my family has been directly involved in over the years under the umbrella of that evil organization?:
Worked in Christmas toy drives for children who would otherwise not get a visit from Santa;
Fed homeless people (directly with our own hands and through donations);
Delivered needed baby supplies and equipment (car seats, bassinets, cribs, strollers, diapers, bottles, etc.) to the homes of single mothers who could not afford them;
Provided direct help to immigrants, including translation and paperwork support;
Donated diapers and baby supplies to a high school for teen mothers run by the same evil organization;
Provide monthly donations to sponsor a child in a 3rd world country so that he could have clean drinking water and go to school (we receive letters directly from his mother each month thanking us)...
The list goes on. Over the years I've forgotten how many good works we have been a part of. Imagine the collective good done by 10s of millions of Catholics just in this country alone? It is staggering to imagine.
The moral of this little story is don't let your disagreement or even anger over a position that you disagree with color your broader view of a person, institution, etc.
eagle2
07-27-2020, 12:09 PM
An organization that believes that all life is sacred, including unborn babies, is evil? An organization that literally saves countless lives and helps 10s of millions of starving, scared and desperate people worldwide every single year is evil? An organization that provides the only safe schools in many of our most blighted cities, especially in the northeast, is evil? Interesting. ;)
As far as the decisions to protect pedophile priests, I fully agree that the policies that led to it were not right. They have since been changed, in no small part due to outrage expressed by the 10s of millions of Catholics here in the U.S. But to imply that "every single priest, bishop, and cardinal" was involved in those decisions or in protecting those offenders is ridiculous, lol. You're trying to paint millions of clergy members in the U.S. with the same brush over the actions of a relative few. C'mon now.
As far as your claims of persecution, those are ridiculous too. At least you stopped using the Jews as your victim group and switched gears to another group, lol. In fact, the church has been crystal clear in modern times in its opposition of violence against, and criminal prosecution of, gays. With that said, I will concede that is has opposed legislation which, in its view, weakens the position of the nuclear family. Many U.S. Catholics have mixed views on these issues, myself included. It's a complicated situation to say the least.
Finally and once again eagle, this is not the forum for an abortion debate. There are reasons why the country is split pretty evenly down the middle on this topic. Proponents of abortion believe as you do while pro-lifers believe that it represents the killing of babies. Nothing we argue here is going to change anyone's view on this topic and this is not the appropriate forum for it. But your wild eyed anger and need to demonize an institution that is coming from a legitimately well intentioned place, whether you agree with its position or not, is a bit disturbing.
Please stop with your gaslighting. I just gave you clear examples showing that your church does not believe all life is sacred, yet you continue to repeat this lie. Opposing abortion does not mean believing all life is sacred.
Your church spoke out against the SC's ruling, prohibiting discrimination against gays.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/can-us-bishops-support-discrimination-against-lgbt-be-sustained
They're even worse in other countries that are less tolerant towards gays.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-lgbt-bishop/liberals-fear-unrest-as-poland-catholic-church-doubles-down-on-anti-gay-rhetoric-idUSKCN1US1EN
More than 10,000 children have been sexually abused by priests in your church. If not all priests went along with the decision to protect these priests, please show just one example of a priest doing the right thing, either in this country, or any other country in the world.
Not only does your church oppose abortion, even to save a woman's life, but your church opposes even the use of contraception.
rickdugan
07-27-2020, 12:37 PM
Please stop with your gaslighting. I just gave you clear examples showing that your church does not believe all life is sacred, yet you continue to repeat this lie. Opposing abortion does not mean believing all life is sacred.
Your church spoke out against the SC's ruling, prohibiting discrimination against gays.
https://www.ncronline.org/news/opinion/can-us-bishops-support-discrimination-against-lgbt-be-sustained
They're even worse in other countries that are less tolerant towards gays.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-lgbt-bishop/liberals-fear-unrest-as-poland-catholic-church-doubles-down-on-anti-gay-rhetoric-idUSKCN1US1EN
More than 10,000 children have been sexually abused by priests in your church. If not all priests went along with the decision to protect these priests, please show just one example of a priest doing the right thing, either in this country, or any other country in the world.
Not only does your church oppose abortion, even to save a woman's life, but your church opposes even the use of contraception.
Putting aside whether a grown man should ever use the word "gaslighting" when describing his interactions with another man, lol...
...you did much more than that. You pieced together odds and ends extreme examples of what you believed were bad moments and acts by the Church, over countless decades, to support a ridiculous contention that the entire institution was "evil." That was your word, not mine. As I tried to amply illustrate, doing so was not only stunningly myopic, but also displayed a profound ignorance of the entirety of the institution and the endless good works done every single day under its umbrella. Millions if not 10s of millions helped every single year in too many ways to count.
Other odds and ends:
Where did you get that 10,000 number and over what timeframe? I hope you're not digging up theoretical ancient history again.
The Catholic Church actually treats the life of the mother and unborn child as equal and wishes that all possible measures be taken to save both before either is let go. Your previous one-off example, as inflammatory as it was, is not the norm. Again, the premise is that all life is sacred. It drives not only the Church's view on abortion, but also things like its opposition to capital punishment. As much as you're struggling to grasp this, the abortion tail does not wag the dog, but rather a fundamental belief in the sanctity of all life is the driving impetus for the abortion issue.
Now I'm not going to sit here and say that I agree with every position of the Catholic Church because I do not. But it is an immense force for good in the world, including hope for millions who would otherwise have none. I've spelled it out ad nauseum now. Instead of looking for more reasons to be angry or offended, instead perhaps you could spend a few minutes actually processing all of the information that was posted and then factor it into your overall analysis.
Raziel
07-28-2020, 05:10 AM
Putting aside whether a grown man should ever use the word "gaslighting" when describing his interactions with another man, lol...
...you did much more than that. You pieced together odds and ends extreme examples of what you believed were bad moments and acts by the Church, over countless decades, to support a ridiculous contention that the entire institution was "evil." That was your word, not mine. As I tried to amply illustrate, doing so was not only stunningly myopic, but also displayed a profound ignorance of the entirety of the institution and the endless good works done every single day under its umbrella. Millions if not 10s of millions helped every single year in too many ways to count.
Other odds and ends:
Where did you get that 10,000 number and over what timeframe? I hope you're not digging up theoretical ancient history again.
The Catholic Church actually treats the life of the mother and unborn child as equal and wishes that all possible measures be taken to save both before either is let go. Your previous one-off example, as inflammatory as it was, is not the norm. Again, the premise is that all life is sacred. It drives not only the Church's view on abortion, but also things like its opposition to capital punishment. As much as you're struggling to grasp this, the abortion tail does not wag the dog, but rather a fundamental belief in the sanctity of all life is the driving impetus for the abortion issue.
Now I'm not going to sit here and say that I agree with every position of the Catholic Church because I do not. But it is an immense force for good in the world, including hope for millions who would otherwise have none. I've spelled it out ad nauseum now. Instead of looking for more reasons to be angry or offended, instead perhaps you could spend a few minutes actually processing all of the information that was posted and then factor it into your overall analysis.
Look, i don't usually mention this because i don't believe any Man should be telling any Woman what to do with her body. So i keep this to myself. (there are plenty of women on both sides of this issue, they can hash it out themselves. Do YOU know what it's like to be pregnant? I Don't). But i am pro choice. Sue me.
Fully, Compleatly, and Honorably... Pro Choice. And, frankly, i really don't give a flying FUCK what anyone thinks about it.
rickdugan
07-28-2020, 05:27 AM
Look, i don't usually mention this because i don't believe any Man should be telling any Woman what to do with her body (there are plenty of women on both sides of this issue, they can hash it out themselves. Do YOU know what it's like to be pregnant? I Don't). But i am pro choice. Sue me.
Fully, Compleatly, and Honorably... Pro Choice.
Raz, I was merely explaining to eagle the genesis of one institution's position on the matter and only in response to his direct implications that there was some nefarious underlying agenda. This is not the forum for a debate on the matter itself as nothing good can come from it. All it will do is trigger more Crazytown posts and potentially hurt the feelings of some of the pinks.
Raziel
07-28-2020, 05:43 AM
Sure.
Djoser
07-28-2020, 10:00 AM
An organization that believes that all life is sacred, including unborn babies, is evil?
It most certainly HAS been evil in the past, to the tune of many hundreds of thousands of people burned alive for praying incorrectly, millions killed in wars fought 'In the Name of God', torture, deportation, and repressive measures of all kinds. Just because the institution suddenly became 'nice' in the last couple hundred years--a drop in the bucket as far as the timeline of human history is concerned, and other than a shitload of priests buggering young boys of course--doesn't mean it no longer has culpability as an institution.
But whatever, we are beating a dead horse going back and forth with this. So maybe better to drop it; it's definitely a tangent to the original topic anyway. I don't always mind tangents, but more so when they get political.
...this is not the forum for an abortion debate. But your wild eyed anger and need to demonize an institution that is coming from a legitimately well intentioned place, whether you agree with its position or not, is a bit disturbing.
It's definitely NOT the forum to debate abortion, since it's predominantly for female members.
And what's up with this? "...wild eyed anger and need to demonize." I know there's been accusations of bias from both sides, but really man, this seems a bit judgemental.
Probably I should just close this thread anyway.
rickdugan
07-28-2020, 10:54 AM
It most certainly HAS been evil in the past, to the tune of many hundreds of thousands of people burned alive for praying incorrectly, millions killed in wars fought 'In the Name of God', torture, deportation, and repressive measures of all kinds. Just because the institution suddenly became 'nice' in the last couple hundred years--a drop in the bucket as far as the timeline of human history is concerned, and other than a shitload of priests buggering young boys of course--doesn't mean it no longer has culpability as an institution.
But whatever, we are beating a dead horse going back and forth with this. So maybe better to drop it; it's definitely a tangent to the original topic anyway. I don't always mind tangents, but more so when they get political.
It's definitely NOT the forum to debate abortion, since it's predominantly for female members.
And what's up with this? "...wild eyed anger and need to demonize." I know there's been accusations of bias from both sides, but really man, this seems a bit judgemental.
Probably I should just close this thread anyway.
DJ, I don't disagree that the Crusades were horrible and that there were definitely other horrible things done by Church in pre-industrial times. But how many groups would hold up well if that was how they were judged? How many of this country's Founding Fathers were slave owners? How many religious groups were active in the slave trade worldwide? I could go on. The morality of today was simply not the morality of 250 to 1000 years ago. None of us were alive then. Heck, our great grand parents weren't alive back then.
But I agree that 'wild eyed anger' was probably a little over the top. I was perhaps a bit nonplussed by the anger I felt coming from the posts. It could have been handled better. Mea culpa.
Raziel
07-28-2020, 11:17 AM
It most certainly HAS been evil in the past, to the tune of many hundreds of thousands of people burned alive for praying incorrectly, millions killed in wars fought 'In the Name of God', torture, deportation, and repressive measures of all kinds. Just because the institution suddenly became 'nice' in the last couple hundred years--a drop in the bucket as far as the timeline of human history is concerned, and other than a shitload of priests buggering young boys of course--doesn't mean it no longer has culpability as an institution.
But whatever, we are beating a dead horse going back and forth with this. So maybe better to drop it; it's definitely a tangent to the original topic anyway. I don't always mind tangents, but more so when they get political.
It's definitely NOT the forum to debate abortion, since it's predominantly for female members.
And what's up with this? "...wild eyed anger and need to demonize." I know there's been accusations of bias from both sides, but really man, this seems a bit judgemental.
Probably I should just close this thread anyway.
Don't close it. It's a debate, it's not going nuts, anyway. If it starts going nuts, THEN close it.
Raziel
07-28-2020, 11:19 AM
We went from Satanism to the Catholic Church. This is great!
eagle2
07-28-2020, 11:57 AM
It most certainly HAS been evil in the past, to the tune of many hundreds of thousands of people burned alive for praying incorrectly, millions killed in wars fought 'In the Name of God', torture, deportation, and repressive measures of all kinds. Just because the institution suddenly became 'nice' in the last couple hundred years--a drop in the bucket as far as the timeline of human history is concerned, and other than a shitload of priests buggering young boys of course--doesn't mean it no longer has culpability as an institution.
But whatever, we are beating a dead horse going back and forth with this. So maybe better to drop it; it's definitely a tangent to the original topic anyway. I don't always mind tangents, but more so when they get political.
It's definitely NOT the forum to debate abortion, since it's predominantly for female members.
And what's up with this? "...wild eyed anger and need to demonize." I know there's been accusations of bias from both sides, but really man, this seems a bit judgemental.
Probably I should just close this thread anyway.
It's not even in the last couple hundred years that the institution became 'nice'. A lot of people aren't aware of this, but the Inquisition lasted into the 1870s, in areas controlled by the church. In the mid 19th century, the Catholic Church was kidnapping Jewish children, so they could be raised Catholic. It wasn't until 1965 that the Church acknowledged that all Jews, living and dead, were not responsible for killing Jesus. There are still some older Catholics today that are antisemitic, based on the church's teachings in the past. (see Mel Gibson) In 1930s Spain, the church kidnapped children of unwed mothers, and gave them to Catholic families to adopt. In Ireland, more than 30,000 girls were enslaved by the church, some because they were "promiscuous", some because they were born out of wedlock, and some, just because they were attractive. This continued into the 1970s. The church still has not apologized or compensated its victims.
https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129865&page=1
It's not my intent to bash Catholics or the Catholic religion, but to condemn actions by the church, that by any standard are wrong, or even evil, and not just actions from 1,000 years ago, but has happened in the recent past, and in some cases is still happening today.
eagle2
07-28-2020, 12:17 PM
Other odds and ends:
Where did you get that 10,000 number and over what timeframe? I hope you're not digging up theoretical ancient history again.
From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_cases_in_the_United_Stat es#Pennsylvania_Grand_Jury_Report
In 2018, a grand jury in Pennsylvania issued a report of 884 pages,[47] stating that there were over 1,000 identifiable child victims of sexual abuse by over 300 priests in six of the eight Roman Catholic dioceses in Pennsylvania,[48] while advising "that there were likely to be thousands more."[49]
The population of Pennsylvania is less than 4 percent of the total population of the US. If the figures are the same throughout the rest of the country, it would mean there are 25,000 to 100,000 victims. It's possible that in PA, the numbers are higher than some other states, but it's doubtful that there's a big enough of a difference for it to be less than 10,000. If the actual figure in PA is 4,000, it's hard to imagine that there aren't at least another 6,000 in the rest of the country, that makes up over 96% of the population.
Also from the above link:
The grand jury found that Church officials followed a "playbook for concealing the truth," minimizing the abuse by using words like "inappropriate contact" instead of "rape".[48] State Attorney General Josh Shapiro, whose office initiated the investigation, said in a news conference, “They protected their institution at all costs. As the grand jury found, the church showed a complete disdain for victims.”[48]
The Catholic Church actually treats the life of the mother and unborn child as equal and wishes that all possible measures be taken to save both before either is let go. Your previous one-off example, as inflammatory as it was, is not the norm. Again, the premise is that all life is sacred. It drives not only the Church's view on abortion, but also things like its opposition to capital punishment. As much as you're struggling to grasp this, the abortion tail does not wag the dog, but rather a fundamental belief in the sanctity of all life is the driving impetus for the abortion issue.
No, the church does not treat the life of the mother and unborn child as equal. The church's view is that the life of the fetus is more valuable than the life of the mother. In the examples I showed, the church's position was clear that the the woman and the girl carrying fetuses should die, so that the fetuses could live. These are not "one-off" examples. There's no reason to believe that your church's position would not be the same for every other girl or woman in the same situation. As I stated earlier, the leading cause of death for young women, is unsafe, illegal abortions. Even in 21st century America, we still have to worry that it could happen here.
In Africa, during the AIDS epidemic, your church condemned the use of condoms to prevent AIDS.
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/dr00027847/
Whose lives were being protected here? If anything, lives were being endangered by your church's position.
rickdugan
07-28-2020, 12:37 PM
And in the 1940s Germany slaughtered millions.
In the U.S. slavery was not abolished until 1865.
In the 1930s Russia starved millions of Ukrainians
Right up to the 20th century, Great Britain drained many colonies of their natural resources
We could go on and on. Practically every modern country in the world came about through violence, often involving the suppression or even genocide of an indigenous population. Many families and institutions, now well respected, established wealth and legacies through practices and acts that would be illegal today. Every long standing country, organization and cause have had individuals who have done misguided and/or bad things in their names.
Again, broader perspective.
rickdugan
07-28-2020, 12:56 PM
From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sex_abuse_cases_in_the_United_Stat es#Pennsylvania_Grand_Jury_Report
The population of Pennsylvania is less than 4 percent of the total population of the US. If the figures are the same throughout the rest of the country, it would mean there are 25,000 to 100,000 victims. It's possible that in PA, the numbers are higher than some other states, but it's doubtful that there's a big enough of a difference for it to be less than 10,000. If the actual figure in PA is 4,000, it's hard to imagine that there aren't at least another 6,000 in the rest of the country, that makes up over 96% of the population.
Also from the above link:
No, the church does not treat the life of the mother and unborn child as equal. The church's view is that the life of the fetus is more valuable than the life of the mother. In the examples I showed, the church's position was clear that the the woman and the girl carrying fetuses should die, so that the fetuses could live. These are not "one-off" examples. There's no reason to believe that your church's position would not be the same for every other girl or woman in the same situation. As I stated earlier, the leading cause of death for young women, is unsafe, illegal abortions. Even in 21st century America, we still have to worry that it could happen here.
In Africa, during the AIDS epidemic, your church condemned the use of condoms to prevent AIDS.
https://khn.org/morning-breakout/dr00027847/
Whose lives were being protected here? If anything, lives were being endangered by your church's position.
Eagle, you do realize that you are trying to tell me what my own religious organization believes, right? Do you think I might be better positioned to know this than you? :) There is no world in which the modern Catholic Church automatically chooses one life over another. But hey, if you find a church policy which explicitly states what you believe from your (indeed) one-off examples, feel free to prove me wrong.
As far as your PA numbers, you are talking over 70 years and a tiny percentage of active priests. The rest we've talked about ad nauseum and it is getting circular, including bad policies, the demands for reform from Catholics and the fact that most everyday Catholics have never been confronted with this personally.
As far as the whole contraception issue, I actually disagree with the church on this and so do a majority of active Catholics. Condoms use, vasectomies, tubal ligation, birth control pills and other forms of birth control are as commonly used by Catholics in this country as in any other group. Just because the Church felt the need in the past to advocate its "go yee forth and multiply" stance does not mean that they are persecuting those who do not comply. As far as I know, nobody ever got excommunicated for using a condom. ;)
rickdugan
07-28-2020, 01:04 PM
By the way eagle, your desire to hold the modern members of very old institutions responsible for the sins of the fore bearers is very Old Testament of you. You may have more religious inclinations than you think. ;D
eagle2
07-28-2020, 03:00 PM
By the way eagle, your desire to hold the modern members of very old institutions responsible for the sins of the fore bearers is very Old Testament of you. You may have more religious inclinations than you think. ;D
I don't hold the Church responsible for actions in the past, taken by people who are no longer alive. I was just pointing out that some of these actions took place more recently than hundreds of years ago.
I do hold the Church responsible for actions taken by people that are still in power, and for, in some cases, refusing to acknowledge wrongdoing in the past or compensating people for the harm caused to them by actions of the church. There are women alive today in Ireland, who were enslaved by your church, and have never been compensated for what was done to them, or even received an apology. There are victims who were sexually abused by priests, whom the church is making every effort to avoid compensating them for the harm done to them.
eagle2
07-28-2020, 03:09 PM
And in the 1940s Germany slaughtered millions.
In the U.S. slavery was not abolished until 1865.
In the 1930s Russia starved millions of Ukrainians
Right up to the 20th century, Great Britain drained many colonies of their natural resources
We could go on and on. Practically every modern country in the world came about through violence, often involving the suppression or even genocide of an indigenous population. Many families and institutions, now well respected, established wealth and legacies through practices and acts that would be illegal today. Every long standing country, organization and cause have had individuals who have done misguided and/or bad things in their names.
Again, broader perspective.
This was happening in the 1970s. By then, everyone in western countries were in agreement that slavery was wrong.
Every decent person acknowledges that nazis were evil people, and Germany has banned the nazi party. Everyone acknowledges that Stalin was evil, including even leaders of the Soviet Union who succeeded him. The US fought a civil war over slavery.
eagle2
07-28-2020, 03:26 PM
Eagle, you do realize that you are trying to tell me what my own religious organization believes, right? Do you think I might be better positioned to know this than you? :) There is no world in which the modern Catholic Church automatically chooses one life over another. But hey, if you find a church policy which explicitly states what you believe from your (indeed) one-off examples, feel free to prove me wrong.
No, I don't know what your religious organization believes, but I know what actions they've taken. Your church tried to prevent a 9 year old girl who was raped from getting an abortion, even though giving birth could have killed her. Your church refused to allow a woman to get an abortion, even though it was necessary to save her life. She ended up dying. In both of these cases, your church decided the life of the fetus had greater value than the person carrying it.
As far as your PA numbers, you are talking over 70 years and a tiny percentage of active priests. The rest we've talked about ad nauseum and it is getting circular, including bad policies, the demands for reform from Catholics and the fact that most everyday Catholics have never been confronted with this personally.
You don't understand. Your church is still fighting today, to prevent victims of these priests from being compensated for the harmed caused to them, and your church still protects these priests who were responsible.
As far as the whole contraception issue, I actually disagree with the church on this and so do a majority of active Catholics. Condoms use, vasectomies, tubal ligation, birth control pills and other forms of birth control are as commonly used by Catholics in this country as in any other group. Just because the Church felt the need in the past to advocate its "go yee forth and multiply" stance does not mean that they are persecuting those who do not comply. As far as I know, nobody ever got excommunicated for using a condom. ;)
Your church is still trying to impose its backwards beliefs on everyone else, regardless what its members think. Your church opposes every effort to make contraception more accessible to more people, and to educate teenagers about safe sex and contraception. This is a major factor as to why the United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate of any western country.
You either don't understand or don't care, that some of the money you donate to your church is used for protecting priests who sexually abused children and for fighting to prevent women from having access to contraception. It's no small amount either. Over $1 billion has been spent on legal fees over sexual abuse cases and for buying the silence of victims.
Raziel
07-28-2020, 04:25 PM
Your church opposes every effort to make contraception more acceptable to more people, and to educate teenagers about safe sex and contraception.
Yeah that IS weird. But its not the domain of the Church to do that. Parents need to do that. People can get contraception, condoms are 99 cents (I'll admit i have no idea how much the pill for women cost), just teach your kid to use a wrap and call it a day, fuck the Church on that.
Raziel
07-28-2020, 04:28 PM
I mean, these dudes hate Abortion, and they hate Contraception. Doesn't that seem a little counterproductive? Contraception means YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE AN ABORTION. It's ridiculous!
Wanna know why i don't have any kids? Because I've always wrapped the Rascal. That's why.