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yoda57us
10-23-2008, 04:50 AM
^^^ is partly a function of the fact that you prefer strippers with fairly specific, rare and in-demand looks.

Who are you talking to?

xdamage
10-23-2008, 05:31 AM
It is still early and we haven't yet gone into a full blow depression. Except for the rapid devaluation of houses, most goods and services around here are the same price as last year. Could be it remains stable, but even then, people may shift how they spend money and those businesses that don't adapt may well go out of business.

For example, buying or renting some DVDs on sale vs going to the (now expensive) theaters; eating out at some place less expensive; doing more of their shopping at discount stores like Target and Walmart; etc. We have previously seen theaters, restaurants, and higher end stores close due to lack of business so it could happen again.

The reality is $20-$30 for 3 minutes of entertainment is expensive for most people. Sure some can still afford it, but many of us, even who still can, are less likely to spend on such an expensive luxury when the future is bleak. At nearly $500 an hour, one can buy a lot of forms of entertainment that last a lot longer.

On the positive side, depending on how you look at it, some dancers may give up leaving a bigger share of the pie (such as it is) to the others.

p.s. Still .. $10 a dance doesn't necessarily mean making half the money of $20 a dance. It all comes down to total spent, not what is spent per dance. The problem is many dancers on SW have said, they want $20 a dance or they want nothing. No grey area. No middle ground, not even if it would increase their total income. But that is them. The next generation of 18+s entering the business, possibly at a time when the economy is recessed or depressed, aren't entering with that $20 number burned into their head. For them it will be a matter of weighing $X per dance vs some other kind of work.

bem401
10-25-2008, 02:03 PM
Who are you talking to?


I took it that she was responding to you.

And for the record, Safado, I'm not advocating that dance prices drop to $10. I'm just explaining why they can sometimes be gotten that cheaply.

As for whether or not girls drop their prices Yoda, I wouldn't expect them to cut prices to regulars accustomed to a certain price and I would expect them to discourage talk about cheaper dances, so I would take what they are saying with a grain of salt. None of us really know what they charge other customers.

AudreyLeigh
10-29-2008, 02:13 PM
It is true there are expenses being a stripper, but I wish strippers would also mention that the average person spends a good chunk of money on clothes for work, to get hair cuts, still does their nails, still may tan and go to the gym etc, and the average person has to pay for all of that too. Strippers may pay some more, but a better measure is

[What it costs to be a stripper] - [What it costs to work in a business setting] = a difference which is a more realistic measure of uniqueness.

Well. I was posting MY expenses. I hate being blond but make no money as a brunette (trust me, Ive tried) so, Im stuck bleaching my hair. I HATE getting my nails done but I do it for dancing. I despise tanning but I do it for work. When Im not working I do not get nails done or tan. I dont wear makeup outside of work. MAYBE once a week....

Clothes - heres the thing - with 99% of jobs you can wear your "work clothes" outside of work. Can I walk around in a 5" skirt, bikini top and 7" stilettos? Uhm, I think not - I mean I could but I mean get real. Those are work expenses that the average joe doesnt have.

When I had a regular job I could wear all my work clothes and shoes on my days off so I dont think you can really compare that.

AudreyLeigh
10-29-2008, 02:17 PM
p.s. Still .. $10 a dance doesn't necessarily mean making half the money of $20 a dance. It all comes down to total spent, not what is spent per dance. The problem is many dancers on SW have said, they want $20 a dance or they want nothing. No grey area. No middle ground, not even if it would increase their total income. But that is them. The next generation of 18+s entering the business, possibly at a time when the economy is recessed or depressed, aren't entering with that $20 number burned into their head. For them it will be a matter of weighing $X per dance vs some other kind of work.

We are not allowed to undercut. If a girl is found to be doing $10 she is reprimanded and/or fired. It brings the ENTIRE BUSINESS down and hurts everyone in the end....

miabella
10-29-2008, 03:08 PM
and yet girls get turned down for 5$ dances in areas where clubs have 5$ dance nights or in areas where 5$ dances are standard for some of the clubs.

if 5-10$/per dance was this magic price point that would make everyone rich, all the dancers in arizona and new mexico would be millionairesses.

that mysteriously hasn't happened...

xdamage
10-29-2008, 04:11 PM
Clothes - heres the thing - with 99% of jobs you can wear your "work clothes" outside of work. Can I walk around in a 5" skirt, bikini top and 7" stilettos? Uhm, I think not - I mean I could but I mean get real. Those are work expenses that the average joe doesnt have.

When I had a regular job I could wear all my work clothes and shoes on my days off so I dont think you can really compare that.

True, good point. The only counter point is business clothes can be several hundred a suit, and business shoes $200+, + dry cleaning bills, and these are clothes that tend to get limited use outside of work, but I do know what you are saying. It is a valid point.



We are not allowed to undercut. If a girl is found to be doing $10 she is reprimanded and/or fired. It brings the ENTIRE BUSINESS down and hurts everyone in the end....

Right. It was hypothetical, since not all clubs allow it. But if they did, many said they still would not work for less, even if their total income was more. See why below...



if 5-10$/per dance was this magic price point that would make everyone rich, all the dancers in arizona and new mexico would be millionairesses.


Most people I know are hoping to get a reasonable raise each year, say 6-10%; businesses that grow at that rate are doing pretty good too. In a down turned economy then most of us think in terms of reasonable, how to maintain our previous income levels or may a small raise, but not particularly dramatic improvements.

Dancers looking for magic price point to become millionaresses have unrealistic expectations to begin with. They won't get rich dancing unless the economy changes. None of us will.

But a true story. All my life I have picked stressful jobs that pay more vs lower stress jobs that pay less. Reason is simple. I'd rather work 2-3x as hard as the next person for 50% more pay. To me my time at work is lost to me anyway. I'd rather have the money later when I am off.

Turns out many people do not think this way and think I'm the fool for working so hard for little more. They would rather work less hard and take home less. To me this is the path of the loser, but hey, if it works for them, enjoy. I've not known many people who got ahead with that mindset, but it is a common mindset.

The problem with $10 dances is a dancer would have to sell say 2x as many to break even. That is all some people see. Working 2x as hard to break even, and 3x as hard to make more. But what we keep saying is many of us would do that, especially if we are sitting around most of the night doing nothing anyway, we would rather have more money later, even if meant working much harder.

Look at it like this... if you sell 5 dances a night at $20, that sucks. If you could sell 15 at $10, that is 3x the work, but it still only about 45 minutes of dancing, out of 8hrs, to take home $150 a night. Many of us would say give me $150, I'll work 3x as hard because my time at work wasted to me, and I'd rather have the money later.

Of course that is hypothetical. If you can't sell 3x as many at the lower price then you might as well stay with the higher price.

But look at the inverse. If dances cost $100 an hour, dancers would probably sell 0 dances per night. That tells us that the psychology of pricing does come into play. Too much and you hurt your own business. To low and you can hurt it too. But dances have been $20 for 15 some years... doesn't mean that the economy of the future will support that price, it may not be the future sweet spot.

Bob_Loblaw
10-29-2008, 05:19 PM
If you charged less money for dances, some customers may be willing to overlook these things.
If I am paying five dollars for a high contact dance even green hair would be o.k.
Just because my local watering hole has a special on Miller Light on Tuesdays, doesn't mean I'm going to drink Miller. If I want my Grey Goose and soda, I'm going to pay for my Grey Goose and soda.


True, good point. The only counter point is business clothes can be several hundred a suit, and business shoes $200+, + dry cleaning bills, and these are clothes that tend to get limited use outside of work, but I do know what you are saying. It is a valid point.
Good point X. But keep in mind that the average person doesn't wear two, three or four different outfits, pairs of shoes and an assortment of accessories during an average day at work either.

evan_essence
10-29-2008, 11:33 PM
We are not allowed to undercut.No foolin! Where are these hypothetical clubs these guys are referencing that allow the dancers to set the prices? I mean, we're supposed to be independent contractors but you know, there seems to be a lot of legalese hidden in those imaginary contracts. Like prices almost universally set by the club. If dancers undercut, not only would they risk being taken to task, but they'd have to be good at hiding how many dances they did to avoid paying the regular house cut.


Look at it like this... if you sell 5 dances a night at $20, that sucks. If you could sell 15 at $10, that is 3x the work, but it still only about 45 minutes of dancing, out of 8hrs, to take home $150 a night. Many of us would say give me $150, I'll work 3x as hard because my time at work wasted to me, and I'd rather have the money later.Yeah, great math, however, I think your premise is flawed. As Audrey referenced, the club usually sets the price and takes whatever house cut they set. You'd have to get the club to allow discounting or variable pricing and you'd have to get the club to take a smaller slice proportionately. You know that's not going to happen. You might as well use the same argument on club management to reduce the price of drinks to a level more consistent with a neighborhood bar.

In previous discussions with a cost benefit analysis, we've usually focused on how much non-dancing time a dancer spends chatting up a customer without direct compensation. The blue argument has always been it's profitable for the dancer in the long run to spend the time, thus reducing her pay per time unit spent with a customer, than for her to stand around interacting with no one, because it might pay off in increased compensation at a later time. That's not so easy to calculate because of the uncertainty and variability of its actual impact. It is, however, a scenario which the dancer usually has control over, and therefore an issue relevant for us to argue what she should do. The price of dances is usually not under the dancer's control (unless she's "cheating" and thus risking the consequences of getting caught). Therefore, I think that last fact renders this discussion, vis a vis what a dancer should decide based on cost vs. benefit, moot or merely hypothetical in most cases.

-Ev

xdamage
10-30-2008, 05:38 AM
No foolin! Where are these hypothetical clubs these guys are referencing that allow the dancers to set the prices? I mean, we're supposed to be independent contractors but you know, there seems to be a lot of legalese hidden in those imaginary contracts. Like prices almost universally set by the club. If dancers undercut, not only would they risk being taken to task, but they'd have to be good at hiding how many dances they did to avoid paying the regular house cut.

Except we aren't saying that you can set your own prices in all clubs.

We are talking about an economic trend here, a hypothetical, much like past issues surrounding social stigma, and extras in the club, we are predicting the probable future based on our knowledge of human nature, and history past.

We are not saying you can set your prices today. We all understand that most clubs don't allow dancers to set their own prices, however...

In the past we have had discussions about the trend of "stigma" and it's impact on the business. Likewise the growing proliferation of extras. There was a LOT of disagreement from young dancers about those topics because at the time it seemed more hypothetical then real. In fact those who predicted these trends were correct, despite all of the straw man counter arguments.

We are talking about a hypothetical here, prices coming down due to market demand as the economy cools. From a trend point of view, there is a good chance it could happen, the same way prices come down in many other markets. All we are saying is, for some dancers, who adjust, their total income may go up (though indeed they may have to work harder overall).

What we are experiencing here is a LOT of resistance to change. That is normal and understood people will do that, but more then likely the strip club industry will not be exempt from the normal trends we see when an economy cools.

I understand some women will never agree to sell to the low end markets. It is the same in many businesses. For example there is Walmart and Neiman Marcus and probably the sales people working in Neiman Marcus would rather not deal with Walmart type customers, aka the poor or average, but chances are in a poor economy Walmart will make more, Neiman Marcus less.

Strip Clubs are a pure luxury item, and at $20 for a 3 minute dance, very expensive. When you think about how long it takes the average person to earn $20 (after taxes) it becomes clear why customers demand so much. It is, for most people, a LOT of money per minute of entertainment. As the economy cools off, this reality will become increasingly a factor in what the market will bare.

bem401
10-30-2008, 06:12 AM
No foolin! Where are these hypothetical clubs these guys are referencing that allow the dancers to set the prices? I mean, we're supposed to be independent contractors but you know, there seems to be a lot of legalese hidden in those imaginary contracts. Like prices almost universally set by the club. If dancers undercut, not only would they risk being taken to task, but they'd have to be good at hiding how many dances they did to avoid paying the regular house cut.

In my state, as long as the club gets their fee, they don't care what the girl charges, or for that matter what she does, as long as it is discreet. This practice is more pronounced at some clubs than at others, but we operate under a different set of rules than just about anywhere else in the US.

JoeUnCool
10-30-2008, 11:43 AM
Well. I was posting MY expenses. I hate being blond but make no money as a brunette (trust me, Ive tried) so, Im stuck bleaching my hair. I HATE getting my nails done but I do it for dancing. I despise tanning but I do it for work. When Im not working I do not get nails done or tan. I dont wear makeup outside of work. MAYBE once a week....

Clothes - heres the thing - with 99% of jobs you can wear your "work clothes" outside of work. Can I walk around in a 5" skirt, bikini top and 7" stilettos? Uhm, I think not - I mean I could but I mean get real. Those are work expenses that the average joe doesnt have.

When I had a regular job I could wear all my work clothes and shoes on my days off so I dont think you can really compare that.

OMG, you mean you don't walk around your place in all of those hot little outfits and heels....My image of you has been destroyed. ;)

JoeUnCool
10-30-2008, 11:57 AM
I would not be a dancer is dances were $5 or even $10. It would not be worth the money. What these guys dont understand is its NOT CHEAP to be a STRIPPER.

Lets do some stripper math with Audrey. Audrey is in school full time so she only works about 4-5 days a month. Here are Audreys stripper costs...

Hair - $100 a month (highlight and cut)
Makeup - $40-50 a month (this includes lashes)
Tanning - $55 a month (more if I need to buy lotion or want to spray tan)
Nails - $50 for full set + $30 for fill two weeks later = $80
Costumes - $100 a month on average - thats one new outfit a month

Right now we have $400 of stripper expenses....

Lets add that I work out of town and pay for gas and lodging at $80 per weekend. Not to mention wear and tear on my car for driving there so lets make that $100 a month....

So, were up to $400 a month for travel. OK, so, now we're at $800 a month for expenses.

Alrighty. Heres where we do some math. I make on average $1,000 per weekend doing $20 dances. This = $4000 per month.

OK, so, we're at $4,000 a month - $800 in expenses. That leaves $3,200. Take away 35% for taxes and we're at $2,080 a month.

Lets do this math if that $1000 per weekend was taken down to $250 a weekend (since we're cutting dance costs by 75%)

$250 per weekend = $1,000 a month - $800 in expenses = $200 a month minus taxes leaves $130 NET PER MONTH.

Uhm yea... thats a bit EXTREME but seriously... WTF?

In all seriousness, I understand the issue about expenses. I think what the blue guys are saying is that dancer income is a product of price per dance times the number of dances. If you drop the price of a dance by half, would you more than make up for it by more than doubling the number of dances you sell? I have no idea. Perhaps 2 for $20 if the place is empty. Afterall $20 is better than nothing.

I will relay a simple story. I had been talking to this gorgeous blonde girl one monday evening. Nothing was happening in her club. I had gotten a few table dances. She asked if I wanted to do the VIP. We started discussing how much it cost. IIRC, it was $325 per half hour and $625 per hour. While I was interested, I was not interested at that price. The end result was no sale. The waitress eventually circled around and asked why no VIP. I told her the same thing I told the dancer, "Given the number of people in the club and what was going on (basically zero), I felt that the club and dancer prices were out of line with a reasonable price given the environment. I would have gone $400-450 for the hour or upto $250 for the half hour, instead the girl got nothing. She sat around the bar and didn't make any more money while I was there. If the club had been busy, than I could have understood paying full price, however, I understand capitalism and sometimes something is better than nothing.

yoda57us
10-30-2008, 06:26 PM
As for whether or not girls drop their prices Yoda, I wouldn't expect them to cut prices to regulars accustomed to a certain price and I would expect them to discourage talk about cheaper dances, so I would take what they are saying with a grain of salt. None of us really know what they charge other customers.

BEM, don't try to pretend that you know how honest the conversation is between me and the dancers I know...

bsteve
10-30-2008, 09:37 PM
... What these guys dont understand is its NOT CHEAP to be a STRIPPER.

Lets do some stripper math with Audrey.

Let's not. Meaning no disrespect, it really does not matter what a supplier's costs are. Market determines the price of a product, not the cost to the seller.

Let me ask you: If you see two sodas (or any other kind of a product) that are pretty much equivalent to you, one with price of $5/12 pack, and another for $6/12 pack, would you care how much it costs to produce the soda? No. Would you care if the cheaper soda costs $2 to produce, and the more expensive one $4 to produce? No. And as a customer, if did know how much it cost to produce each soda, would you buy the more expensive one solely because the profit is only $2 as opposed to $3 on the cheaper one? No.

The same way, a customer does not, and should not, care what it costs to put on a dance. Similarly, do you as a supplier care how difficult it is for him to make the money? No, that is his problem.

AudreyLeigh
10-31-2008, 07:46 AM
hey steve (and everyone else - but your post just stuck out)

Why is it that with everything else prices go up. Minimum wage goes up, pay goes up, bonuses, raises, etc etc.

Yet with dancers its gone down down down and everyone thinks it should go down more. I mean, ok, I get it but really.. its ridiculous that we should take less when everyone wants more.

Are YOU taking paycuts instead of raises? Are YOU happy to have a decrease in pay?

What makes US less valuable in our workplace than YOU are in yours?

bem401
10-31-2008, 08:31 AM
BEM, don't try to pretend that you know how honest the conversation is between me and the dancers I know...

I pretended no such thing. I merely said none of the guys can really know whether they're being told the truth, just like you reminded me when I said I generally only danced with certain girls when they told me they were having a bad day. My comment had nothing to do with you specifically or any of the girls you might know. It applies to me and every other guy as well. I intend to stop at a local club this afternoon and one of my friends there might tell me she had a bad day. I have no reason to disbelieve her but I do not know to a certainty if she is being honest.

bem401
10-31-2008, 08:35 AM
hey steve (and everyone else - but your post just stuck out)

Why is it that with everything else prices go up. Minimum wage goes up, pay goes up, bonuses, raises, etc etc.

Yet with dancers its gone down down down and everyone thinks it should go down more. I mean, ok, I get it but really.. its ridiculous that we should take less when everyone wants more.

Are YOU taking paycuts instead of raises? Are YOU happy to have a decrease in pay?

What makes US less valuable in our workplace than YOU are in yours?

Luxury items are the first things to take a hit when money gets tight and lap dances are definitely luxury items. there are numerous examples of luxury items being discounted big time these days, such as high-end SUV's, vacation homes, and country club memberships.

AudreyLeigh
10-31-2008, 08:44 AM
But I am not a TV or an iPod. Or am I? Hmmmm. I always thought I was a person providing a service.

Im so sick of those stupid comparisons. They're ridiculous. Thats fine - dont buy the iPod or TV - don't go to Best Buy. i.e. Dont go to the strip club if you cannot afford it. Do not go out to the restaurant where a meal is $20 expecting to get it for $5. Just don't go.

yoda57us
10-31-2008, 09:39 AM
How do you know how honest these dancers are with you? Is it because they tell you they are being honest with you? It can be possible that they don't even have to lie. They may be able to find a clever way to avoid talking about it.

There is absolutely nothing more amusing than a guy who doesn't know me or the dancers I spend/befriend/have lunch or dinner with trying to tell me how our conversations go or what they mean. Thanks for the laugh, really!



These dancers could be telling you personal things about themselves (and being honest about them) and still getting more money out of you than from some other customers. From reading some of your posts, I would bet that you could spend less money and still receive the same level of service.

Again, your skills as a mind reader are truly amazing. Could I spend less? Well sure I probably could but why would I? I spend what I want to spend. I spend a pretty fair amount of time with a fav when I go to her club. Honestly, my ROI is pretty damn good. I'm not looking to save money, I go to clubs to enjoy myself and be entertained.

If you want to write a book about how to be a cheap SOB strip club customer I'm probably not one of the guys you want to use for research.

rockie
10-31-2008, 09:52 AM
As a customer, I like a standard price structure known by all and posted publicly. In that environment I would never negotiate down. There are clubs where price is in flux moment to moment - all bets are off in that environment. As to the question: I would only feel a bond with a good dancer who is trying to keep her money flowing and offers a deal. Not so good dancer - No bond! I've made a point of never taking advantage of "2 for 1's" with favs of mine. I would look at it favorably if occasionally I'd get an extra dance out of that situation. Used to happen, but not anymore! If it truly bothered me, I'd move on.

yoda57us
10-31-2008, 10:02 AM
As for whether or not girls drop their prices Yoda, I wouldn't expect them to cut prices to regulars accustomed to a certain price and I would expect them to discourage talk about cheaper dances, so I would take what they are saying with a grain of salt. None of us really know what they charge other customers.

Actually BEM I don't use salt, I haven't for years. I have frank and open conversations with my favs all the time. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about weather they are telling me the truth or not just as they don't have to spend a lot of time worrying about weather I am going to spend any money on them that day.

I may not always beleive what a "dancer" tells me but I do trust my friends not to BS me BEM. They have no reason to. The reality is I get a better ROI from my favs than the guys who run around looking for discounts. I'm willing to bet that most regulars who spend well do equally as well with their favs. I'm not going to run around the club telling other guys what I get for my money, who's phone number I have or who does what to who in the champagne room or OTC. I'm not going to string a dancer along all afternoon by promising to spend money and then not doing it or waiting for the half-price dance special after bending a girls ear for an hour. In short, I can be trusted to be discrete and not waste a girl's time and that trust is returned.

You're a pretty smart guy BEM. I would assume that you know the difference between stripper shit and an honest conversation with a dancer.

yoda57us
10-31-2008, 10:09 AM
I've made a point of never taking advantage of "2 for 1's" with favs of mine. I would look at it favorably if occasionally I'd get an extra dance out of that situation. Used to happen, but not anymore! If it truly bothered me, I'd move on.

I don't have a problem with enjoying a two for one but I always do it as part of a block of dances. I had a fav years ago at a club in Providence who I used to visit on Saturday afternoons. She always used to save the 4pm 2-fer dance for me as part of my dance package. It was actually kinda fun! I used to go find a good booth while she was up on stage with the other dancers, she would come off stage and we would go to town...

She appreciated my loyalty and rewarded me by saving a double dance that she could have been using to market herself to someone new (yeah, I was a sure thing!). Now, that being said, she was quick to tell me that she would rather do a free dance for a regular than for some guy who was just waiting around for the special and never paid for a full price dance.

rockie
10-31-2008, 10:35 AM
She appreciated my loyalty and rewarded me by saving a double dance that she could have been using to market herself to someone new (yeah, I was a sure thing!). Now, that being said, she was quick to tell me that she would rather do a free dance for a regular than for some guy who was just waiting around for the special and never paid for a full price dance.

An arrangement like that is always appreciated. If this "sure thing" moved down the road for a time or two, I'd probably re balance the scale for me in that club. There is also option 2: buying multiple "2 for 1's" from the best dancer in the club - who isn't a fav, but technically should be. I like my ATF enough to always get dances from her, but it's always interesting the questions that get asked by her when I deviate from my norm. Deviation is at the forefront of my small mind!

yoda57us
10-31-2008, 11:38 AM
There is also option 2: buying multiple "2 for 1's" from the best dancer in the club - who isn't a fav, but technically should be. I like my ATF enough to always get dances from her, but it's always interesting the questions that get asked by her when I deviate from my norm. Deviation is at the forefront of my small mind!

LOL, yeah "interesting" is a good word for it...

I have some clubs where there are three or four dancers who I get dances from. They may not all be there every time that I go in but they all know that they are not exclusive with me. That saves a lot of those interesting questions...

Then I have my current ATF in a different club where I never buy dances from anyone else. Now, this works because she doesn't really CARE if I do. She's a firm beleiver that no dancer owns a customer just because he bought dances from her on his last visit.

doc-catfish
10-31-2008, 01:32 PM
Seriously, I would question what kind of club I was in if $5 dances were the norm.
Up until about eight years ago, that was my reality. They're $10 at that club now. Being used to paying $20, I give the girls there $15.

But this isn't eight years ago.


I would not be a dancer is dances were $5 or even $10.
And this is the ugly truth that a lot of customers thinking that these lean times are going to bring bargain basement prices to the SC don't seem to consider. Dancers expect a reasonable ROI in exchange for taking their clothes off and grinding on men's laps. If the market is only going to net them a return that isn't much better than what they could have earned doing a mainstream job, well, a lot of them are going to go do a mainstream job.


Dance prices are basically determined by the market. Right now I would venture to guess it is a buyer's market and with less money to go around, dances can be gotten quite cheaply, if that is what the customer is looking for.

You would think that. Hell, I would think that. But SC owners are looking at something else. That when the 'haves' still have money to blow, and the 'have nots' have even less money, it adds to their bottom line and make the 'haves' pay more and not worry about the 'have nots' feelings.

Remember guys, we are talking about a luxury good here. Its not how many units you sell that matters as it is how much markup you get on EACH unit. You've probably heard me bitch how my former home club raised the price of a dance from $20 to $30, and kept the extra $10 for themselves, which I felt priced a lot of the local customers out of the market, and made dances harder for the girls to sell. Last private party that I had with my fave, I asked if this new arrangement was hurting her earnings, and she said no, and that it was actually helping her net per dance because a number of the guys who were still buying would pay her $40 to make up for the $10 that the club was taking.

Granted it was a blow to my ego to hear that, but the more I thought about it, it made sense. If a guy can't afford a $20 dance, he really wasn't a lost customer in the first place. Conversely, to a guy who can afford a $30 dance, paying $40 isn't that much of a stretch.

If you think about it, its very much like my "red chip vs. green chip" theory about casinos. Go to a casino and find a $5 minimum table game and you'll likely see it full of players, but look at each players bet and you'll rarely see them bet more than two chips. Go to a $25 minimum table and you may see one or two old dudes sitting there by themselves, but each of them may be betting $100+.

Guess which table nets the casino more money?

yoda57us
10-31-2008, 02:06 PM
You would think that. Hell, I would think that. But SC owners are looking at something else. That when the 'haves' still have money to blow, and the 'have nots' have even less money, it adds to their bottom line and make the 'haves' pay more and not worry about the 'have nots' feelings.

Remember guys, we are talking about a luxury good here. Its not how many units you sell that matters as it is how much markup you get on EACH unit.



This is dead on. It is also why, even though they do it sometimes, clubs are hesitant to go the advertised discount dance route. I have clubbed through many recessions over the years and the doom and gloom never really comes to pass. When it comes to strip clubs it really is the "have" and "have nots". There will always be guys who come in, buy a drink, tip a few bucks at the stage and leave either buying one or two dances or none at all. The club is happy to get your cover charge and drink revenue and the dancers pretty much know you for what you are: A guy with no money to spend on them.

The guys who can afford to buy dances may cut down their visits when times are tough but they won't stop buying dances when they come in since the PD is reason for their visit. Sitting at the bar watching tits is boring when what you want to do is grope them...

In the past, when my discretionary income has been low I have skipped visits but I never just go in and watch or chat. Boring!

safado
10-31-2008, 02:59 PM
So then what will happen, will there be a wave of dancers shaking their asses down to unemployment because they are not making money from cheap ass customers? Because they are private contractors, they probably can't collect unemployment.

From what I have heard unemployment is up and is expected to continue to rise so I don't think the dancers will easily change jobs. I still think it is a buyers market.

yoda57us
10-31-2008, 03:39 PM
So then what will happen, will there be a wave of dancers shaking their asses down to unemployment because they are not making money from cheap ass customers? Because they are private contractors, they probably can't collect unemployment.


Dancers have an option that not all people have. They can work more shifts and hustle more. My ATF usually works three shifts a week. This fall she has been working at least four or five to try and keep her earnings steady. Every guy in the club gets asked for a dance, even the guy who said no last week...

Look, Dancing is hard work. The youngins who show up every shift with a sense of entitlement and a bad work ethic are going to be hurt by the slower economy. Ultimately some may decide that they can do just as well working a regular job. My hunch would be that girls who make that decision probably aren't right for dancing anyway. Anyone, customer or dancer, who thinks it's easy money doesn't really have a clue...

AudreyLeigh
10-31-2008, 05:20 PM
So then what will happen, will there be a wave of dancers shaking their asses down to unemployment because they are not making money from cheap ass customers? Because they are private contractors, they probably can't collect unemployment.

From what I have heard unemployment is up and is expected to continue to rise so I don't think the dancers will easily change jobs. I still think it is a buyers market.

You're a moron.

Bob_Loblaw
10-31-2008, 05:43 PM
But I am not a TV or an iPod. Or am I? Hmmmm. I always thought I was a person providing a service.

Im so sick of those stupid comparisons. They're ridiculous. Thats fine - dont buy the iPod or TV - don't go to Best Buy. i.e. Dont go to the strip club if you cannot afford it. Do not go out to the restaurant where a meal is $20 expecting to get it for $5. Just don't go.
But what if I compared you to an expensive great big, tender, juicy prime rib? I mean... I really like prime rib.

safado
10-31-2008, 06:12 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/79/Supply-demand-right-shift-supply.svg/200px-Supply-demand-right-shift-supply.svg.png

This is a simple case of supply and demand.

rockie
10-31-2008, 09:20 PM
Both my responses in this thread were to the title itself, without the knowledge that the OP suggested a $5 lap dance in a $20 lap dance club as an addendum to the title. Never seen that discount in a club, and I would be too suspicious to accept it in most any club I've been in. Bem: Did you actually use discretion with regards to Providence area clubs? I just had to ask you the question. Audrey Leigh:This may be the first time I've agreed with a dancer on SW about price structure in a club as it relates to this thread. My only question is even at the stage the top stays on if the tip is not more than $5? Damn, I better keep my butt on the east coast! Don't worry Safado's supply side economic stripclub modus operandi should only effect east coast ladies!

JoeUnCool
11-01-2008, 06:25 AM
Let's not. Meaning no disrespect, it really does not matter what a supplier's costs are. Market determines the price of a product, not the cost to the seller.

Let me ask you: If you see two sodas (or any other kind of a product) that are pretty much equivalent to you, one with price of $5/12 pack, and another for $6/12 pack, would you care how much it costs to produce the soda? No. Would you care if the cheaper soda costs $2 to produce, and the more expensive one $4 to produce? No. And as a customer, if did know how much it cost to produce each soda, would you buy the more expensive one solely because the profit is only $2 as opposed to $3 on the cheaper one? No.

The same way, a customer does not, and should not, care what it costs to put on a dance. Similarly, do you as a supplier care how difficult it is for him to make the money? No, that is his problem.

Now, I am going to argue from the other side. The cost to produce the product does go into the equation, just into a different spot. Instead of a direct correlation to the price, it goes into factoring if it makes sense for a dancer to even be in that industry.

I agree that while I don't care about the cost of producing the product, there may be an implied believe that the value of each dancer's dance is the same. I do not believe that is the case. I have never met Audrey nor do I plan on it, however, I think the value of an Audrey dance is probably much higher than some random girl that walks up to you, attempts to chat you up while playing with her fingernails, and hits you for the wanta dance hustle.

Ultimately, I am getting to the fact that I believe clubs should allow dancers flexibility in setting the cost of a dance or vip. There probably would need to be a range of allowed pricing and other rules put in. Ultimately, this could be more trouble than it is worth. Maybe one price Steve Jobs has it right.

JoeUnCool
11-01-2008, 06:33 AM
hey steve (and everyone else - but your post just stuck out)

Why is it that with everything else prices go up. Minimum wage goes up, pay goes up, bonuses, raises, etc etc.

Yet with dancers its gone down down down and everyone thinks it should go down more. I mean, ok, I get it but really.. its ridiculous that we should take less when everyone wants more.

Are YOU taking paycuts instead of raises? Are YOU happy to have a decrease in pay?

What makes US less valuable in our workplace than YOU are in yours?

One of the lessons I have learned is that everyone thinks that everyone else is making tons of money. This simply is not the case. The stock market is down tremendously. That is indicative that the times are not so good. I think everyone has it rougher than everyone else thinks.

JoeUnCool
11-01-2008, 06:36 AM
But I am not a TV or an iPod. Or am I? Hmmmm. I always thought I was a person providing a service.



To some customers, each dancer is just a hunk of meat walking buy. To others, they are willing to pay extra (not extras) for the right girl. How do you find the customer willing to pay more? That's the problem.

yoda57us
11-01-2008, 11:27 AM
A person providing a service should be easier to haggle down in price than a product.

Actually that is not really true at all. People who provide a service (and I happen to be one) have a set idea of what that service is worth to other people. When it comes to providing a service that requires a certain skill or training folks are very hesitant to discount their fees as it is, in a way, discounting their self worth.

Material goods are sold at a mark-up. Stores run sales all the time on material goods. When was the last time your doctor ran a special on a quadruple bypass?

Granted, some strippers cut prices, in my opinion that is not a smart long-term business move. In the long run it doesn't put anymore cash in their pockets, pisses off other dancers, and leaves them no where to go when the economy gets better. Once you get a regular by giving him a deal you can not go up to regular price, you will lose that regular.

I have read here in this thread once or twice that some guys think a dancer is OK with haggling as it makes her think that you are interested. Frankly, anyone who believes that haggling is appreciated by a dancer needs to have his head examined. You show interest by buying dances, you show respect by being generous. Do I get deals? Sure I do. I don't get them because I walk around asking for discount dances. I get them because I spend regularly and generously. It's all about the over-all ROI, not how little I can get a lap dance for.

FBR
11-01-2008, 12:07 PM
^^ Word.

I've never received freebies but I have received significant "special attention" based upon my volume of business over time. That works for me :)

FBR

safado
11-01-2008, 02:20 PM
A person providing a service should be easier to haggle down in price than a product.

And when times are bad it should be even easier.

abcd I think that you should keep haggling, that is the only way that you will get what you want for a fair price.

doc-catfish
11-02-2008, 01:59 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/79/Supply-demand-right-shift-supply.svg/200px-Supply-demand-right-shift-supply.svg.png

This is a simple case of supply and demand.

Okay, and here's a simple math lesson.

If a dancer works at a club with $20 dances and is accustomed to selling 20 a night...

20 x $20 = $400

And if bad economic times reduce her sales to 14 dances a night...

14 x $20 = $280

And her club decides to raise the price to $30...

And there isn't any drop off in sales as a result (because in bad economic times, people who still tend to be buying luxuries like Ferraris, high end apparel and dining, evening of entertainment at a strip club tend to be those who still have plenty of money), well...

14 X $30 = $420

I've always advocated any businessperson sell their wares at what will mathematically bring in the highest amount of profit. The strategy for doing so of course involves knowing what you're selling and whom you're selling it to. Sometimes, its better to go after quality than quantity.

And mind you, I'm not one of those guys who appreciates the idea that as a result of my continuing patronage, the cost for me to play is going up because fewer people are playing. But the vendor is looking at the math and concluded that's the best way to keep the bottom line in the black. This isn't unique to strip clubs. Our local municipal golf course, seeing sagging attendance decided to do the same thing and actually raise prices.

I the customer have the right not to patronize such business anymore. These are discretionary expenses after all. If enough people go along with me, the club/golf course/whatever owner will have to capitulate.

I also have the right to seek out cheaper alternatives such as going to other venues in other cities that haven't raised their prices when I visit there, or arranging an hour with a private party dancer or escort.

Of course, the latter of those options in comparison to buying lap dances involves the equivalent of a volume sale. And I don't think the OP, any of the people cheering him in this thread, or most SC customers that brag about their active haggling practices are offering much volume to offset that cheaper price they're getting. At least not enough to make it worthwhile to the dancer.

And hey, I'm sure there are no shortage of dancers willing to go along with this, buy you bargain hunters can have those dancers. Raking someone that naive over the coals just isn't my fantasy. I'd just as soon stay out of the clubs than practice my low balling skills there.

Bob_Loblaw
11-02-2008, 02:37 PM
Maybe it's just me but more and more SW (all of it, not just blue) is starting to feel like SCL.

hockeybobby
11-02-2008, 03:06 PM
Maybe it's just me but more and more SW (all of it, not just blue) is starting to feel like SCL.

I know what you mean Bob. Maybe our time has passed?

doc-catfish
11-02-2008, 03:16 PM
Maybe it's just me but more and more SW (all of it, not just blue) is starting to feel like SCL.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2647463960_4ac3d9d135.jpg?v=0

bem401
11-03-2008, 07:41 AM
I may not always beleive what a "dancer" tells me but I do trust my friends not to BS me BEM. They have no reason to.

As do I, but I do not know what they do where other guys are concerned, nor do I ask them.

And remember, you and I probably get straighter talk from the dancers we know than they give to other customers. Especially since we know several of the same girls.

bem401
11-03-2008, 08:17 AM
But I am not a TV or an iPod. Or am I? Hmmmm. I always thought I was a person providing a service.

Im so sick of those stupid comparisons. They're ridiculous. Thats fine - dont buy the iPod or TV - don't go to Best Buy. i.e. Dont go to the strip club if you cannot afford it. Do not go out to the restaurant where a meal is $20 expecting to get it for $5. Just don't go.

Isn't this exactly what is happpening? Less guys are in the club, the girls have more free time and are therefore tempted ( some of them anyhow ) to begin undercutting or offering extras. Once guys start finding out the price is negotiable or extras are on the menu, they start comparison-shopping unless they have some allegiance to a particular girl.

Earl_the_Pearl
11-03-2008, 02:10 PM
And remember, you and I probably get straighter talk from the dancers we know than they give to other customers.

Dancers give different hustles to different PLs.

Earl_the_Pearl
11-03-2008, 02:15 PM
But I am not a TV or an iPod. Or am I? Hmmmm. I always thought I was a person providing a service.



If I'm going to have a person provide a service, home repair, I get estimates and check references so as to get the best service at the best price. It is a business.

yoda57us
11-03-2008, 03:13 PM
And remember, you and I probably get straighter talk from the dancers we know than they give to other customers. Especially since we know several of the same girls.

Um, Der.....This was my original point! I could care less what they tell other customers, it's all part of the job as far as I'm concerned. My point was what they were telling me about what they do with other customers. I don't generalize a whole here BEM, I talk about what I know. My personal experiences.

yoda57us
11-03-2008, 03:16 PM
Dancers give different hustles to different PLs.

Hell yeah! Some even use phony accents, imaginary kids with hungry mouths to feed, fake bills that need to be paid right away before something gets turned off. Then their are the "dangling OTC" girls and the "my boyfriend is an asshole" girls...

Ah, the possibilities are endlessly entertaining!

evan_essence
11-03-2008, 09:51 PM
We are talking about a hypothetical here, prices coming down due to market demand as the economy cools. From a trend point of view, there is a good chance it could happen, the same way prices come down in many other markets.If the past is any indicator, the more likely trend will be that the mileage will go up, rather than the price per se coming down.

-Ev