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skeets45
11-02-2008, 04:28 PM
I can't speak for everyone, but my view on this is that since SHE is the one "performing", she controls the action. It is the patron's place to just let her perform for him and do her thing without interrupting by initiating contact. The patron paid her to dance for him (however she may chose to do), not for him to be able to touch her.

As a customer, this hits it on the head. I try to take some time and watch the dancers before getting a dance to see what would be appropriate, but, IMHO, the dancers has the right to reel me in if I go too far.

A simple "no" or moving my hand is all that is needed. I enjoy the two way touching, but never at the expense of a woman's personal boundaries.

UtahMike
11-02-2008, 05:14 PM
Heh--I once had a dancer slap my hand while it was holding a dollar bill a foot above her panties and making no hostile move. This was in the same club where the dancer complained I had touched her when the knuckle of my left pointer finger hit the middle of her back when she leaned back.

I don't go to that club any more.

Otoki
11-02-2008, 11:46 PM
Oh, a tip to those of you who wish to respect a woman's boundaries: Don't do the "hover hands". Just because you're not touching doesn't make it ok. It's supremely irritating because I have to be on edge, making sure you're not going to touch me (I have that much less warning if you try) and it limits how I can move within the confines of the rules, and my personal comforts.

When guys do hover hands, I politely tell them to put their hands back down to the sides. If they make the excuse, I force the hands down and say "let's get back to having fun". If they keep doing it, no more dance. ANNOYING.

Carry on.

lemmiwinks31
11-05-2008, 11:53 AM
Yes, I am serious.

No, I am not arguing that there is no difference between "do this" and "can you please do this". I know that there is. What I am saying that to a lot of guys there is no difference. I am not justifying their behavior, just explaining it.

Do you think that I am wrong?

in your last post, you stated that MOST guys dont see the difference between barking orders at someone or asking politely....That is what I think we are all disagreeing with..

On the above post, you say that 'a lot' of guys dont see a difference.....that may be correct....because there are 'a lot' of assholes.....and anyone that does this is one.

bigmarv
11-05-2008, 06:15 PM
The options are simple, IMO. Allow your dancer to control the action or politely ask to do whatever it is you are thinking about.

Enough said.:)

UtahMike
11-07-2008, 10:25 PM
Otoki, this was on the stage, and I was waiting for her to pull out a strap on one side or the other so I could insert the tip. I was not waiting to see if I could grope her.

Otoki
11-10-2008, 12:16 AM
Otoki, this was on the stage, and I was waiting for her to pull out a strap on one side or the other so I could insert the tip. I was not waiting to see if I could grope her.
That post wasn't directed at you. It was directed to people who think that sort of behavior is cute.

The only reason I could think of that chick smacking away your hands is that she had already had someone try to touch her on stage.

hl1986
11-12-2008, 10:36 PM
There have been times when a dancer has been wiggling her booty in front of my face for a long time that I have asked her to turn around so I can have a look at her boobies, too. I also really like it when a dancer sits on my lap and leans back against my chest.

Do you mean you would hate it if I asked you to do these things?

Honestly? Yes, I would hate you. Now, in all fairness, I am the first to admit I have an incredibly low tolerance for men ITC, but still – I would dismiss you abruptly after the dance. OR, if we were in a situation where you were LITERALLY spending THOUSANDS, I would give you a cold smile, and oblige (assuming it’s simply a certain “move” you’d requested as opposed to something “extra”). However, what you might (or might not) notice while I obliged this "request" is the sudden (and very icey) chill in the air. When I say chill, it’s not the kind that gets my nipples hard. :(

Sorry if you guys don’t like the way this sounds, (and I’m sure there will even be dancers that disagree with me on the following), but the truth is I don’t give a f*ck what you want me to do! I don’t care! I’m working in the top club in Manhattan, and if you want to “get the most” out of your (lousy) twenty bucks, go attempt it with someone else. Seriously? You’re a guy I don’t know, and I’m a hot – really hot – 22 year old. There are a million guys with fatter wallets – but there is only one of me. And, on that subject (hustling) when a woman clearly shows how “non desperate” she is (in an adorable, sexy and precocious way) there will ALWAYS be an older “whale” that will find it fascinating. This “whale” will be more than happy to pay me to “charm” him with my “really cute (and for effect) arrogance”. For certain (wealthy) men, they see it as a challenge. How did they get so wealthy? By being OBSESSED with *overcumming* challenges. Men like a chase – EVEN (maybe ESPECIALLY) in a strip club. I am consistently a top earner. The ONLY way I have been able to achieve this is by my (incredibly disarming) impertinence! }:D
My "hustle" is looking the PL dead in the eyes, making my face animated (lol, I do this by PICTURING my eyes dancing and sparkling, I know it's wierd) and convincing myself (and of course him) that I don't need this dance/vip room, that I will not ever beg, hustle or charm - because I don't need to. It works.

O.M.G ===> Just realized the serious level of thread jacking I 've just commited - any sexy ladies have some handcuffs they want to try out?! :-X Sorry! xo

bsteve
11-13-2008, 09:36 PM
Sorry if you guys don’t like the way this sounds, (and I’m sure there will even be dancers that disagree with me on the following), but the truth is I don’t give a f*ck what you want me to do! I don’t care!


I am speechless. Let me get this straight: you would hate it when a customer would ask you to show him your boobs? Isn’t that like your job?

There seems to be a great disconnect between what you, HL’, and what I or most others think that dancer’s job is. If ‘Mike would ask you to see your boobs, why on Earth would you not happily oblige? Just exactly what is the problem?

A dancer is there to provide a service to the customer. The dancer should do whatever the customer asks for within the scope of their dancer-customer contract. It is just like any other service job. I ask my secretary to type my letters in font 12, not font 11, because I want it that way; it is her job to do what I want. I ask my architect to design a plan for my house according to my wants and needs; it is his job to deliver the plans to me the way I want. I ask a grocery store clerk to bag groceries into plastic not paper because platic serves my needs better; it is her job to bag my groceries in plastic. A client of mine wants me to provide a report on something because he wants it; it is my job to provide it to him exactly like he wants it.

In all of service jobs we do things for clients that they want. The client is the boss. Whatever the client wants the service person should provide. The client is the one who pays the paycheck. The fact that you don’t feel comfortable doing what the customer asks is irrelevant -- I don’t feel like doing lots of things for clients either. But I am not there for the client to do what I want, but to do what the client wants.

What am I missing?

Otoki
11-15-2008, 10:38 AM
I am speechless. Let me get this straight: you would hate it when a customer would ask you to show him your boobs? Isn’t that like your job?
*headdesk* bsteve, you are being willfully obtuse. Stop now so we can get back to having threads with SUBSTANCE, rather than endless cyclical flame wars.



There seems to be a great disconnect between what you, HL’, and what I or most others think that dancer’s job is. If ‘Mike would ask you to see your boobs, why on Earth would you not happily oblige? Just exactly what is the problem?
She's not talking about showing her boobs, she's talking about things like "can you do this move? How about this move?" Even when asked politely, I get a bit bothered when people ask me to do things because chances are
a) it's something I'm not willing/not allowed to do
b) it's something I'm going to do later in the dance.

If a dancer doesn't want to do something a customer asks her to do, I don't see why that counts as "not doing her job".

I do disagree with HL's claim that she doesn't care what a customer thinks. If that's how she works, great. For me, I aim to make sure both myself and the customer have a good time. That means both of us being polite and considerate, not breaking any rules, and neither of us pressuring the other to do anything (be it certain moves or spending more money).


A dancer is there to provide a service to the customer. The dancer should do whatever the customer asks for within the scope of their dancer-customer contract. It is just like any other service job. I ask my secretary to type my letters in font 12, not font 11, because I want it that way; it is her job to do what I want. I ask my architect to design a plan for my house according to my wants and needs; it is his job to deliver the plans to me the way I want. I ask a grocery store clerk to bag groceries into plastic not paper because platic serves my needs better; it is her job to bag my groceries in plastic. A client of mine wants me to provide a report on something because he wants it; it is my job to provide it to him exactly like he wants it.

In all of service jobs we do things for clients that they want. The client is the boss. Whatever the client wants the service person should provide. The client is the one who pays the paycheck. The fact that you don’t feel comfortable doing what the customer asks is irrelevant -- I don’t feel like doing lots of things for clients either. But I am not there for the client to do what I want, but to do what the client wants.

What am I missing?
Here's where you go into a self-righteous "customer is always right" frenzy. Each dancer has limits that may be more restrictive than the rules they agreed to when they signed their contract. If my contract says that leg-touching is allowed, but I am not comfortable with that, I will be sticking to my limits, and not fulfilling every word of my contract to make a customer happy.

Dancing is very difficult to create analogies for because it is a weird in-between stage of both independent contracting and employee status. We have more flexibility than your secretary does. A dancer will often be asked to do things which might make her, as an individual, uncomfortable, and she has the right to reject it without "breaking her contract" or "not doing her job".

In fact, a dancer who rejects you for a dance, for whatever reason, is still "doing her job." Her "independent contractor" status allows her this type of freedom, which is why so many women choose to dance in clubs.

bsteve
11-16-2008, 01:06 AM
*headdesk* bsteve, you are being willfully obtuse. Stop now so we can get back to having threads with SUBSTANCE, rather than endless cyclical flame wars.
...
If a dancer doesn't want to do something a customer asks her to do, I don't see why that counts as "not doing her job".
...
Here's where you go into a self-righteous "customer is always right" frenzy. Each dancer has limits that may be more restrictive than the rules they agreed to when they signed their contract. If my contract says that leg-touching is allowed, but I am not comfortable with that, I will be sticking to my limits, and not fulfilling every word of my contract to make a customer happy.



No, I was not accusing HL’ of dereliction of duty, or breaking her contract. That’s not the issue.

What I am questioning is her lack of enthusiasm for her job or for her customer’s wishes. I, and millions of other people who are in the service industry, are trying figure out how to serve our clients better. It makes business sense. I try to do for my client what he/she wants. Not because I am contractually obligated, but because I want a biggerpaycheck.
Perhaps in her situation the economy is so good, that she does not need worry about doing what the customer wants. Good for her.

Otoki
11-17-2008, 03:13 PM
^^Ok, thanks for clarifying.

Perhaps we could avoid these sorts of drawn-out misunderstandings if you worded your posts more carefully, to make your point clear and avoid confusion/unintentionally giving offense.

bsteve
11-17-2008, 09:50 PM
^^Ok, thanks for clarifying.

Perhaps we could avoid these sorts of drawn-out misunderstandings if you worded your posts more carefully, to make your point clear and avoid confusion/unintentionally giving offense.


Ouch :'(

Otoki
11-18-2008, 01:51 PM
Ouch :'(
Hey, I tried to say it as nicely as possible, but there it is. There have been at least two threads in which we had a drawn-out debate, and it turned out to be based on a misunderstanding of your original post. And I was not the only one interpreting your posts differently than how you intended.

I'm guilty of this, too, but I do my best to choose my words carefully to avoid these sorts of misunderstandings.