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Sirona
11-24-2008, 07:46 PM
I love how the fact that childbirth was a leading cause of death for both mothers and babies for a really long time seems to be totally ignored here. Ya know, back when women were left to labor and deliver alone.

ViolaStrings
11-24-2008, 08:05 PM
^ I was going to make a snarky comment about getting into a time machine and going back to 1700, but I was trying to be nice.

Before the 20th century, death in child birth was a very real thing that happened very regularly. Women were literally afraid of pregnancy and dreaded childbirth because back then it could KILL you. They would have loved to give birth in the hospitals we have today. Rude doctors, forceps, pain killers, whatever, it's still the smartest thing to do. I dare say giving birth outside of a hospital is straight up stupid.

Laura Shanley
11-24-2008, 08:34 PM
This post is directed towards those of you who are willing to question the idea that prior to the advent of the modern day hospital, women and babies routinely died in childbirth. This is from a recent interview I did:

There is a misconception that, prior to the advent of modern day hospitals, women and babies were routinely dying in birth. This simply isn’t true. Anthropologists that observed tribal cultures a hundred years ago said they could often observe a tribe for years and never or rarely see a death or complication in birth (see Tribal Wisdom from the World’s Oldest Societies by Judith Goldsmith).
However, for women in the cities it was a different story. Poor city women were often over-worked and underfed. Many of them had malnutrition, which caused their pelvic bones to be deformed. If they were wealthy, they may have been confined to their homes and deprived of fresh air and sunshine because pregnancy was thought to be a shameful condition. Pregnant women were often bled and purged, which also led to problems. Those who gave birth in hospitals often died from childbed fever, a condition which was eventually found to be caused by doctors who went from performing autopsies to delivering babies without washing their hands. So while some women and babies did indeed die in childbirth, there were certainly many who didn’t – and it wasn’t because a doctor was there to cut them open. Throughout history, healthy tribal women have successfully given birth unassisted.
Today, women and babies in third world countries sometimes die in childbirth. But if we dig a little deeper we find that the majority of these women don’t have enough to eat, nor do they have access to clean water or proper housing. The countries with the highest infant and maternal mortality rates are also the countries with the highest rates of female genital mutilation. A woman who has been genitally mutilated literally has to be cut open vaginally in order to give birth. Often this is done with dirty instruments, which leads to infections for both mothers and babies.
Many cultures throughout the world also have dangerous practices surrounding birth. Often mothers are confined to small, dark, poorly ventilated huts prior to, during, and after the birth. They are underfed, and often their babies are taken away immediately after the birth and given whale blubber, animal fat and bread. In India, only 1-14% of babies are nursed within an hour of birth. Not only is this dangerous for the baby, but mothers are more likely to hemorrhage. The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that 22% of infant deaths result from babies not being nursed within an hour of the birth.
So, while it is true that women and babies can and have died in childbirth, it isn’t because birth is inherently dangerous, or because it has been poorly designed (either by God or evolution). This would be like saying we know that digestion has been poorly designed - and therefore needs to be medically managed - because people in third world countries are dying from dysentery. When we live in poverty, all aspects of health are affected. To say that healthy, well-fed women should not give birth unassisted because women who live in poverty sometimes have problems in labor simply doesn’t make sense. We need to understand WHY birth can sometimes be problematic, and then take steps to correct that. Women that give birth unassisted feel they are doing this by overcoming their fear of birth - and therefore not triggering the release of stress hormones - and making sure they get plenty of good food, fresh air and exercise.
--
Death in childbirth today (from the India Times):
Poverty, hunger and disease were the three main reasons why 99% of the deaths childbirth in 2005 occurred in developing countries. Together, the regions of sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia accounted for 86% of the world’s maternal deaths in 2005.
--

And to those who believe nothing bad ever happens in the hospital:
The JOURNAL of the AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (JAMA) Vol 284, No 4, July 26th 2000 article written by Dr Barbara Starfield, MD, MPH, of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, shows that medical errors may be the third leading cause of death in the United States.

The report apparently shows there are 2,000 deaths/year from unnecessary surgery; 7000 deaths/year from medication errors in hospitals; 20,000 deaths/year from other errors in hospitals; 80,000 deaths/year from infections in hospitals; 106,000 deaths/year from non-error, adverse effects of medications - these total up to 225,000 deaths per year in the US from iatrogenic causes which ranks these deaths as the # 3 killer. Iatrogenic is a term used when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness.
Laura

Sirona
11-24-2008, 09:45 PM
Actually the most commonn reasons for death during/directly after childbirth was due to things like hemmorage, herpertension, puerperal fever and embolism.

Being malnourished during pregnancy tends to cause spontanesou abortion/inability to carry pregnancy to term.

Oh and Miss Shanley?
Do you actually have any valid medical training or just a bunch of anecdotal crap to offer?

Laura Shanley
11-24-2008, 10:16 PM
Nope, no formal medical training and proud of it. I'm self taught. Imagine that.

Congratulations, Sirona. You've succeeded in chasing me off this board.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. ;D
Laura

ViolaStrings
11-24-2008, 11:46 PM
Laura, you spout all these statistics about how many people die because of the practice of modern medicine, but you don't say anything about how many people whose lives have been saved because of modern medicine, especially in relation to child birth.

modlgrl
11-25-2008, 04:45 AM
Actually the most commonn reasons for death during/directly after childbirth was due to things like hemmorage, herpertension, puerperal fever and embolism.

Being malnourished during pregnancy tends to cause spontanesou abortion/inability to carry pregnancy to term.

Oh and Miss Shanley?
Do you actually have any valid medical training or just a bunch of anecdotal crap to offer?

What??? Do YOU yourself have any medical training??? No, apparently not from reading your posts. I would rather read and learn from a woman that has had successful pregnancies than someone who has not. What she has done to create that, and how she has helped others. The fact of the matter is that some women have problems with pregnancies due to their own lack of self-education, bad health or practices. Ex. Smoking, drinking, drug use (self induced problems)and medical problems. Obviously if you were not trying to insult her you would know that she abhors "modern medicine's childbirthing" This is her life long passion. What she does and what she knows. There are people out there that practice and seek alternative medicine, and there is nothing wrong with her posting here, and she is more than welcome. How about you try backing up your own comments with medical referencing.

Erines1111
11-25-2008, 06:40 AM
I think that even if you do not agree with the freebirthing/unassisted thing--hopefully this forum will inspire people to think outside of the confines of modern medicine and science. I know that in our post-Enlightenment world science has become the new religion. Just remember that this is all it is-- a singular worldview---it doesn't make it any better or more "true" than others. I'm certain that hundreds of years from now people will shiver in fear at our bizarre cultural practices of episiotomy, planned c-sections (or maybe this will be the new "normal"-- one never knows), and that damned lady on the Discovery Channel that screams "1,2,3, 4, PUSH PUSH PUSH" through every contraction. How could they have lived like that? haha

As far as maternal mortality pre-"modern" (ugh I hate that word) etc. There is little evidence that modern medicine is responsible for the increases in human lifespans, decrease in mortality etc. It is mostly due to sanitation, nutrition etc.--as I believe someone pointed out. There are citations for this. I just don't have them. Search the EBSCO & other public health search engines and it will turn stuff up. I promise.

Even comparing the US to Europe on a lot of these issues shows how idiotic and unecessarily medicalized we are about them.

miabella
11-25-2008, 07:15 AM
yes, antibiotics (which were discovered about 100 years ago, excluding herbs like garlic), washing one's hands before surgery and/or delivery and being able to do blood transfusions are the three biggest medically-related reasons for surgical and birth improvements.

modern medicine helps with edge-case pregnancies-- but by definition, that is not that many women to begin with.

modern medical practices have also led to ridiculous rates of hysterectomies and other absolutely disastrous things that COMPROMISE FEMALE HEALTH.

doctors, while no longer overwhelmingly male, still treat female patients as 'incorrectly formed' men, and that mindset affects much of the care. c-sections were never meant to be standard-- they are themselves higher risk when done on a low-risk pregnancy.

before people get too enthused about modern medicine, it needs to be remembered that it's only been around for a little while (100 or so years in the West). That means just 4 generations. most of the gynecological practices being stood behind are even more recent, within the last generation.

the human population did grow, not shrink, in the bad old days, and there were plenty of old women and old men walking around as well. lack of antibiotics and ability to give blood transfusions were more of a problem than failure to perform c-sections on healthy women (which kills women in the US year after year, esp. minority women, who also can still face walking in to give birth and walking out with a hysterectomy).

obviously, you can't always give birth naturally-- not all women are healthy, there will be some edge-case, high-risk scenarios-- but MOST (key word) women can give birth with no more than midwife assistance and some clean towels.

and so it's fine to use modern medicine for what it is best at-- dealing with complex edge cases that require advanced technological intervention. that's just never going to be most pregnancies.

Sirona
11-25-2008, 08:25 AM
Nope, no formal medical training and proud of it. I'm self taught. Imagine that.

Congratulations, Sirona. You've succeeded in chasing me off this board.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone. ;D
Laura


Wow so my having an opposing view made you leave?
That's an adult reaction. I have a hard time taking someone seriously who only responds to people who support thier view and ignore people who ask questioins.
*golf clap*


What??? Do YOU yourself have any medical training??? No, apparently not from reading your posts. I would rather read and learn from a woman that has had successful pregnancies than someone who has not. What she has done to create that, and how she has helped others. The fact of the matter is that some women have problems with pregnancies due to their own lack of self-education, bad health or practices. Ex. Smoking, drinking, drug use (self induced problems)and medical problems. Obviously if you were not trying to insult her you would know that she abhors "modern medicine's childbirthing" This is her life long passion. What she does and what she knows. There are people out there that practice and seek alternative medicine, and there is nothing wrong with her posting here, and she is more than welcome. How about you try backing up your own comments with medical referencing.

Hey dingbat, learn to read. I had three awsome pregnancies. I also delivered with a midwife. How about you go back and actually read what I wrote and then get back to me.

Medical referencing? Sure thing toots!
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/72/1/241S.pdf

There are lots of graphs (pictures) that should be easy enough to understand.

MIabella, I don't in any way condone the rampant use of C-sections or anything of the sort.

However...

How quickly people forget how many women and children died because of complications brought about by women with a bony pelvic circle or ecplampsia for example.

To totally discount modern medicine as helpful to pregnant women is stupid. Sorry.

Doctors aren't perfect by any means but they sure as shit help a lot of fucking people too.

dangerousdiva
11-25-2008, 08:29 AM
^ She answered my questions quite thoroughly.

misspthesweetesttaboo
11-25-2008, 08:30 AM
Thanks for the info Laura, while i'm still quite skeptical, UC is very interesting and you have inspired me to do more research into something I may have never considered out of content with the "norm". I've never had children, but i'm 21 and super active (as in not necessarily NOT trying to offspring,lol) with my fiance so this may very well come up in an upcoming convo.

She certainly doesn't deserve to be attacked though, especially when the OP specifically asked for this information- maybe it's me getting it all wrong here but...

Sirona
11-25-2008, 09:11 AM
^ She answered my questions quite thoroughly.
She totally sidestepped every one of mine.

dangerousdiva
11-25-2008, 09:54 AM
I think she answered you but you may not agree with her answers, which is fine.


She totally sidestepped every one of mine.

What's your unanswered question, I'm having trouble finding it?

Sirona
11-25-2008, 10:12 AM
I think she answered you but you may not agree with her answers, which is fine.



What's your unanswered question, I'm having trouble finding it?

She had said she couldn't comment on my last delivery because she didn't know the facts. I gave them to her and she conveniently never readdressed what i'd said.

It's not too hard to find, perhaps you need to reread the thread.

dangerousdiva
11-25-2008, 10:31 AM
She had said she couldn't comment on my last delivery because she didn't know the facts. I gave them to her and she conveniently never readdressed what i'd said.

It's not too hard to find, perhaps you need to reread the thread.

I did reread the thread. I guess I missed that *one* question to because it's barried. She probably didn't get around to it because she was needlessly getting attacked.

Like I mentioned previously, I have monoamniotic twin nieces without medical intervention they would have died. However, I have to agree some medical interventions during child birth are unnecessary, especially when it comes to inducing labor. I've never heard a good story about that.

Laura has alternative beliefs and she's entitled to them. She's responding based on those beliefs.

I don't get the condescending tone and name calling.

ETA
Actually I think she did attempt to respond to your question here (http://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1751336&postcount=32) although she quoted me and did not directly address you.

Sirona
11-25-2008, 11:26 AM
I don't have any issue with her talking about her experiences or even her discussing her opinions on labor and childbirth.

I do have a huge issue with her passing those experiences and opinions off as medical advice. It's dangerous and irresponsible.

modlgrl
11-25-2008, 11:38 AM
Hey dingbat, learn to read. I had three awsome pregnancies. I also delivered with a midwife. How about you go back and actually read what I wrote and then get back to me.

Medical referencing? Sure thing toots!
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/72/1/241S.pdf


Dingbat eh :O , interesting that you always choose to verbally insult. Not just one of your posts, but in many of them. I DID actually read what you said- how about you go back and check what you've posted. In fact, I've read all of your posts. You must know that complications stem from medical problems, as well as those that are self- induced. I would much rather listen and learn from someone that has had healthy pregnancies and healthy births than a 14 year smoker, and admitted drug user. Check your own postings ::)


I do have a huge issue with her passing those experiences and opinions off as medical advice. It's dangerous and irresponsible.

The only thing dangerous and irresponsible has been your own behavior.

CKXXX
11-25-2008, 12:22 PM
I don't have any issue with her talking about her experiences or even her discussing her opinions on labor and childbirth.

I do have a huge issue with her passing those experiences and opinions off as medical advice. It's dangerous and irresponsible.

I agree. You can offer your experiences and opinions,but when you pass them off as fact and make it sound like they are backed up with medical expertise its not ok. Its also not ok to make it sound like your way is the only way. If you CHOOSE to give birth at home and research it well..fine. If you CHOOSE to give birth in a hospital...thats fine too. Its YOUR CHOICE and neither is better or worse(unless you are high risk for example in which case you should go to a hospital...home wont be able to save you or your baby if complications occur)

LizardQueen
11-25-2008, 12:59 PM
^^^ Stop trying to attack Sirona's lifestyle. She's obviously taken care of herself and her children just fine. ::)

Anyway, I like the input from Laura Shanley about at-home births but I believe that prenatal care is a MUST and that it would be a much safer idea to have a midwife around during the birth. Oh, and to be really close to a hospital if possible, just in case. Doctors aren't out to fleece you out of your money and fuck you over... that's what the hospital/insurance/pharmaceutical execs are for!

modlgrl
11-25-2008, 01:10 PM
I am not attacking her lifestyle, I am listing fact. This started when she herself began her own "attack", name-calling, and overall angry posting, and I will not put up with it. Facts are facts, and I am posting accordingly. My own postings have always been civil.


Doctors aren't out to fleece you out of your money and fuck you over... that's what the hospital/insurance/pharmaceutical execs are for!

We were also talking about the margin of error in hospitals, and yes, it does exit.

Laura Shanley
11-25-2008, 02:08 PM
No interest in responding to angry, cruel comments from people who are afraid to question the status quo. For those with open minds, here are some helpful links. I believe that hypertension, eclampsia and embolism are caused by stress. Disagree? Fine, just my opinion. Take it or leave it. Fact: Puerperal fever began after women began giving birth in hospitals.

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/puerperal-fever.html (http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/puerperal-fever.html)

And from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever)

Hospitals for childbirth became common in the 17th century in many European cities. These "lying-in" hospitals were established at a time when there was no knowledge of antisepsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisepsis) or epidemiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology), and patients were subjected to crowding, frequent vaginal examinations, and the use of contaminated instruments, dressings, and bedding. It was common for a doctor to deliver one baby after another, without washing his hands or changing clothes in between.

http://www.masteringeft.com/MeditationCenter/Articles/CombatingIllness.htm (http://www.masteringeft.com/MeditationCenter/Articles/CombatingIllness.htm)

http://dailystrength.org/c/COPD_Emphysema/forum/4963157-our-fight (http://dailystrength.org/c/COPD_Emphysema/forum/4963157-our-fight)

Unsubbed from this discussion but may stop in occasionally. ;D
Laura

LoveyDovey
11-25-2008, 04:50 PM
:O
Seriously, some of you would give birth outside of a hospital? I could understand being assisted by a midwife or doula, but never at home or a birthing center or overseen by anyone other than a REAL doctor. This is you and your baby's life. Take all possible precautions.

I agree too. I'm glad I had prenatal care. It turned out that toward the end of my pregnancy I had preeclampsia and if it had gone unchecked or unmonitored, there would have been serious consequences.

I know pregnancy is a natural thing, but I feel comforted by seeing a doctor to make sure everything is "on track". I would have felt irresponsible otherwise.

Miss_Luscious
11-25-2008, 04:56 PM
I had my daughter at a hospital and I was given shit like demerol to stop the pain. I had an epidural as well that caused epidural headaches (http://www.storknet.com/cubbies/childbirth/exwc2.htm). I was very young and they treated me like shit, telling me what I needed (demerol!) and not letting me move around because of the various IVs, fetal monitors (external AND internal), etc. They broke my water and did pelvic exams every hour until they said I wasn't progressing fast enough and they would have to give me pitocin or a c-section if I didn't give birth in the next 2 hours because of the risk of infection. If they had let my water break naturally and stopped sticking their fucking fingers up my cooch every damn hour, the risk of infection would have been 0. I told them to turn off the epidural so I could push effectively and they didn't want to because, "This hurts and we don't need you screaming" I made them do it anyway.

When I was finally ready to push, the nurses held my legs to my damn ears, made me lay almost flat on my back and yelled at me to push push push 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. STOP!!!! push push push 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,8 , 9, 10. STOP!!!!. It didn't matter that I had no urge to push. I eventually stopped listening to them (I got yelled at for that too) and I pushed when my body told me to for as long as my body told me to and what do you know, my daughter came out after that one push. She wasn't very alert though (she was really drugged up poor thing). Oh, and even though I said I did not want an episiotomy, guess what I got? That shit hurt and I couldn't walk, let alone pee for almost a week while the stitches healed.

I was in labor for 27 hours, most of which I was laying in a hospital bed like I was severely ill (with all the monitors and IVs and such I was hooked up to).

As soon as my daughter was born they took her away from me and I didn't get to hold her but for a few minutes before she was whisked away again for about an hour. I didn't want her to have any formula or pacifiers (I stated that in writing and even had a little card put on her bassinet thing that said so) because I was exclusively breastfeeding and guess what? She had both while we enjoyed our 2 day stay at the hospital where I was still confined to the damn bed.

With my son in the birth center,I was allowed to move freely, avoid artificial breaking of my water, avoid all those interventions and I pushed when my body told me to in a squatting position. The result was an 8 hour labor, one push, and no tearing or episiotomy. He was born alert and he even held his head up and looked at me when I laid him on my chest right after he came out. His apgar score was better than my daughters and he latched on to my breast quickly unlike my daughter who was high for a long time after she was born. I was able to go home after a few hours (and a quick nap) and I was entertaining family that evening. Everyone was amazed that I was up and about after just giving birth a few hours before but it felt wonderful to me. I was happy and energetic and I felt very very natural...if that makes any sense.

This time I'm giving birth at home with my midwife. She will be there only in case something goes wrong. She will allow me to give birth without any of the mandatory "management" like at a hospital. Birth does not need to be managed like a sickness. Women have been doing it for millenia and for people to think that everyone needs to be in a hospital to have a baby is just mind boggling. That's like going to the hospital for a week to have your period or going to the hospital to take a shit.

Sure things go wrong sometimes that that's a very very small percentage of births and there is no reason that a woman can't give birth on her own most of the time.

LoveyDovey
11-25-2008, 04:59 PM
^^ I would have been happy with a birthing center, but due to my preeclampsia I had to go to the hospital.

MoetATL07
11-25-2008, 05:15 PM
Miss Luscious your second labor sounded great hope your next goes well also. I wouldn't mind having my next baby at a birthing center.

DylanAngel
11-25-2008, 05:29 PM
No interest in responding to angry, cruel comments from people who are afraid to question the status quo. For those with open minds, here are some helpful links. I believe that hypertension, eclampsia and embolism are caused by stress. Disagree? Fine, just my opinion. Take it or leave it. Fact: Puerperal fever began after women began giving birth in hospitals.

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/puerperal-fever.html (http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/puerperal-fever.html)

And from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever)

Hospitals for childbirth became common in the 17th century in many European cities. These "lying-in" hospitals were established at a time when there was no knowledge of antisepsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisepsis) or epidemiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology), and patients were subjected to crowding, frequent vaginal examinations, and the use of contaminated instruments, dressings, and bedding. It was common for a doctor to deliver one baby after another, without washing his hands or changing clothes in between.

http://www.masteringeft.com/MeditationCenter/Articles/CombatingIllness.htm (http://www.masteringeft.com/MeditationCenter/Articles/CombatingIllness.htm)

http://dailystrength.org/c/COPD_Emphysema/forum/4963157-our-fight (http://dailystrength.org/c/COPD_Emphysema/forum/4963157-our-fight)

Unsubbed from this discussion but may stop in occasionally. ;D
Laura


Not stating this as fact, but Jane Seymour, 3rd wife of Henry VIII was thought to have died of puerperal fever in the 1500's. And royalty never gave birth in hospitals back then.

Just throwing that out there.:)

ViolaStrings
11-25-2008, 05:30 PM
ML, keep in mind that second births are far easier than the first in nearly all cases. Just because the hospital you had the first child in treated you what you perceive as badly, it doesn't mean they're all like that or that people shouldn't go to them. First births (espeically for a teenager) are rough to begin with, you can't blame the hospital for putting your SAFETY and the safety of your baby before your comfort.

Just because the experience MIGHT be unpleasant doesn't mean you should forget the safety advantages of giving birth in a hospital.

I think a perfectly safe compromise is to give birth in a birthing center attached to a hospital, assisted by a midwife or doula, but overseen by a doctor. You have the best of both worlds, the safety of the hospital just in case, but the feeling of a natural birth if you don't need the hospital. Nothing wrong with that.

I think at home births or at a birthing center that is not affiliated with a hospital is foolish.

MoetATL07
11-25-2008, 05:55 PM
^^ Oh I didnt know some birthing centers were afflilated with hospitals.

Sirona
11-25-2008, 07:59 PM
No interest in responding to angry, cruel comments from people who are afraid to question the status quo. For those with open minds, here are some helpful links. I believe that hypertension, eclampsia and embolism are caused by stress. Disagree? Fine, just my opinion. Take it or leave it. Fact: Puerperal fever began after women began giving birth in hospitals.

http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/puerperal-fever.html (http://www.general-anaesthesia.com/puerperal-fever.html)

And from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerperal_fever)

Hospitals for childbirth became common in the 17th century in many European cities. These "lying-in" hospitals were established at a time when there was no knowledge of antisepsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisepsis) or epidemiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology), and patients were subjected to crowding, frequent vaginal examinations, and the use of contaminated instruments, dressings, and bedding. It was common for a doctor to deliver one baby after another, without washing his hands or changing clothes in between.

http://www.masteringeft.com/MeditationCenter/Articles/CombatingIllness.htm (http://www.masteringeft.com/MeditationCenter/Articles/CombatingIllness.htm)

http://dailystrength.org/c/COPD_Emphysema/forum/4963157-our-fight (http://dailystrength.org/c/COPD_Emphysema/forum/4963157-our-fight)

Unsubbed from this discussion but may stop in occasionally. ;D
Laura


Unsubbed but still stopping in to only answer the stuff that supports your OPINION.

See here's the thing, there is fact and there is opinion.

It's a FACT that medical advances have saved and helped oh so many people.

Eclampsia etc is caused by stress?

Wow, just wow.

Well whatever.

Thanks for at the very least helping to clean the gene pool.

LizardQueen
11-25-2008, 08:33 PM
Eclampsia, what it is, potential causes, and known correlations:

http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic633.htm

Also interesting: according to Dr. Guler Sahin, eclampsia and preeclampsia have a higher rate of occurance in developing nations. Hmm, modern healthcare is less readily available in developing nations and more births are likely to be done at home... Malnutrition could be an issue but still, I think this helps to ground us all back in reality a little bit.

http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/Course2003/Eclampsia.htm

There should be a balance. At-home births can be a beautiful thing, but PLEASE enlist the supervision of an experienced midwife and make sure to involve modern prenatal care!

Sirona
11-25-2008, 10:44 PM
Eclampsia, what it is, potential causes, and known correlations:

http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic633.htm

Also interesting: according to Dr. Guler Sahin, eclampsia and preeclampsia have a higher rate of occurance in developing nations. Hmm, modern healthcare is less readily available in developing nations and more births are likely to be done at home... Malnutrition could be an issue but still, I think this helps to ground us all back in reality a little bit.

http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/Course2003/Eclampsia.htm

There should be a balance. At-home births can be a beautiful thing, but PLEASE enlist the supervision of an experienced midwife and make sure to involve modern prenatal care!

Well said.

Butrcup98
11-25-2008, 11:31 PM
Well....hasn't this turned into a pissing contest.

We each have our opinion about what is and is not the correct/responsible method for every situation that is experienced. How does a person determine who is actually correct?

I'm assuming with a fair amount of research. Personally, I like Google, because relevance of material is just as important as cost per click. I Googled maternal mortality and these are the 4 links on the first page that I thought were the most relevant. (I chose them because 4 of the links were all about Africa; and since we are Americans, I thought some American based articles might be a little more accurate for our situations)(BTW, Sirona, the article you gave us quoted mostly statistics from England)(I also did not include Wikipedia. My English professor does not count them as a reliable source, mearly a good basis for definition):

https://www.who.int/topics/maternal_health/en/
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/80743.php
http://allafrica.com/stories/200809250702.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03_033.pdf

The first link focuses mainly on empoverished nations. In my opinion, I believe that it is safe to assume that if you are malnurished, don't have adequate shelter or regular medical care that you are at a higher rish of dying from just about any treatable condition; and that includes childbirth.

In fact, for this thread, unless there are women present from other countries, can we please focus on facts from American medical research.

Link 2 discusses American maternal mortality. It actually states that: "The maternal mortality rate in the U.S. is the highest it has been in decades, according to statistics released this week by CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/)'s National Center for Health Statistics (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/), the AP/Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/24/AR2007082401321.html) reports."

Granted, it is still not as high as in the early part of the 1900s, but I wonder: In our ever advancing society, why are more women dying from childbirth? Also, has everyone suddenly forgotten that in the early part of the 1900s we were facing the first stages of the Great Depresion? I'm sure that because of this lack of money, people were lacking basic necesseties, like food. In fact, if anyone has a grandparent who is at least 80, ask them about the GD and you will have first hand knowledge of what things were like.

"Reasons for Increase
A rise in the number of caesarean sections -- which now account for 29% of all births -- could be a factor in the increased maternal mortality rate, some experts said. According to a review of maternal deaths in New York, excessive bleeding is one of the primary causes of pregnancy-related death, and women who have undergone several previous c-sections are at particularly high risk of death.

Some studies have found that race and quality of care also factor into the maternal mortality rate. The maternal mortality rate among black women is at least three times higher than among white women. Black women also are more susceptible to hypertension and other complications, and they tend to receive inadequate prenatal care. Three studies have shown that at least 40% of maternal deaths could have been prevented with improved quality of care.

The rise in obesity also might be a factor, some experts said. According to researchers, overweight women tend to have diabetes or experience other complications that could affect pregnancy outcomes. Overweight women also might have excessive tissue or larger infants, which could make a vaginal birth more difficult and lead to more c-sections. More women also are giving birth in their late 30s and 40s, when risks of pregnancy complications are higher, according to the AP/Post (AP/Washington Post, 8/24)."

When my bf gave birth to her first son, she was told that if she had to push longer than 1 hour, that they were going to give her a c-section. Is there suddenly a time alottment for childbirth? This isn't mechanics. You can't just say, "Well, the everage birth takes X amount of time. Anything over that and..."

The 3rd,4th and 5th links I found were all about why Africa has such a high mortality rate. Not surprising, they all give malnutrition, lack of necessecities like shelter and clean water, and poor medical conditions as reasons for the high maternal mortality rate. But please remeber that NONE of us can ever comprehend what those people are going through; so we can not compare American women giving birth at home to the their "at home" births.

The final link offering American based info: If you notice from the information presented, many maternal deaths were not recorded and therefore those "statstics" are faulty. In fact, because of this new medical discovery doctors and researches redefined "maternal death" to include such causes as "infective and parasitic conditions and other current conditions in the mother that are classifiable elsewhere but which complicate pregnancy such as syphilis, tuberculosis, diabetes, drug dependence, and congenital cardiovascular disorders".

And this link: http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/ Claims that the US has the 2nd highest newborn mortality rate of the modern world.

I would like to end this by asking everyone here a few questions:

1) How many women do you know who have had complications during birth? (I say birth because if you have complications during pregnancy, then you are foolish to attempt childbirth with no medical assistance.)

2) Of these women, did they lead healthy lifestyles? (By healthy, I mean exercising, other than dancing, on a regular basis, eating healthy (and I don't mean salads drenched in dressing).

3) How many of these women had previous health problems?

4) Did they use drugs? (Yes, that includes pot)

5) Did they smoke cigs?

Medical advancements have played a huge role in the decreasing numbers of maternal mortality. But that is not directly related to prenatal care or birthing in a hospital. It is, and can be proven, directly related to medical advancements that affect our society as a whole. For example, antibiotics and other cures/preventions for diseases and infections.

All of these questions are important when considering the direction you will take when giving birth. Whatever direction you choose, would you want someone beating down your door telling you what a lousy choice you were making?

I understand that this forum was created as an outlet for opinions. But do we have to be so nasty about it?

Sirona
11-26-2008, 08:17 AM
^^ Oh I didnt know some birthing centers were afflilated with hospitals.


Birthing centers and midwives are both commonly affiliated with hospitals. :)

LizardQueen
11-27-2008, 04:40 AM
VegasPrincess: I concur. Judgment calls on a stripper board ftl

Nautilus
11-27-2008, 04:31 PM
as someone who went the 'natural' way, in a birth centre IN a hospital, with water, no intervention, a highly-educated mother, no complications in pregnancy.....

i want to say - you just don't know what will happen. if you are not educated, and i mean seriously educated, about all aspects of the birthing process (as well as what may NEED to happen if you hit the skids), then don't do it at home alone or if you are not within short minutes of the hospital.

25 hours for me... no 'endorphins', 'rushes' or 'orgasms' to speak of - just unbelievable, horrific pain. it is not sexy or womanly.

my boy got stuck, and thank the lord for the waiting emergency caesarean downstairs (despite all the group-hug, lovey-dovey shit we'd been striving for).

my boy's apgars were 9 then 10. he fed like a demon immediately. he is a strong, awesome little dude and we bonded just fine.

maybe if he could have delicately plopped out in the water it would have been nicer, but all in all -- my belief in EDUCATED mothers being in control of the extent of medicalisation during birth is the answer.

i absolutely put my foot down for my caesarean, and i know i saved us both.

further...

my friend had an horrific first medicalised birth with internal monitor etc. this motivated her to go for a home, vbac in the water with a doula.

oh... she also had no 'pre-scare' as you say - did i mention no one realised the placenta was blocking the exit? easily picked up by one ultrasound. she was raced to hospital bleeding and traumatised for her emergency caesarean.

she BELIEVED she could birth at home. she had all the nature girl friends on her hippy board but you know what, our bodies and lifestyles AREN'T made for cave-birthing anymore.

if you can do it, you are lucky but i certainly wouldn't recommend it.

/rant.

ViolaStrings
11-27-2008, 05:22 PM
^ that's the point! No one knows what their labor is going to be like.

Smart post, seriously. All this hippie birth-is-natural shit sounds nice, but it's a nice way to die or get a disabled child from lack of resources.

Nautilus
11-27-2008, 05:28 PM
there is a lot of fear-mongering about medicalisation of birth. more people ought to preach the power of patient consent - which has a lot more weight behind it if a mother knows what to ask for and when - and knows she can stay in control of everything the hospital does to her UNTIL it is an emergency, then there is nothing to fear.

if you just rock up to the hospital cross-eyed and bow-legged then they're just gonna do shit to you because they assume you don't know what you want or what to do.

Sirona
11-27-2008, 07:00 PM
as someone who went the 'natural' way, in a birth centre IN a hospital, with water, no intervention, a highly-educated mother, no complications in pregnancy.....

i want to say - you just don't know what will happen. if you are not educated, and i mean seriously educated, about all aspects of the birthing process (as well as what may NEED to happen if you hit the skids), then don't do it at home alone or if you are not within short minutes of the hospital.

25 hours for me... no 'endorphins', 'rushes' or 'orgasms' to speak of - just unbelievable, horrific pain. it is not sexy or womanly.

my boy got stuck, and thank the lord for the waiting emergency caesarean downstairs (despite all the group-hug, lovey-dovey shit we'd been striving for).

my boy's apgars were 9 then 10. he fed like a demon immediately. he is a strong, awesome little dude and we bonded just fine.

maybe if he could have delicately plopped out in the water it would have been nicer, but all in all -- my belief in EDUCATED mothers being in control of the extent of medicalisation during birth is the answer.

i absolutely put my foot down for my caesarean, and i know i saved us both.

further...

my friend had an horrific first medicalised birth with internal monitor etc. this motivated her to go for a home, vbac in the water with a doula.

oh... she also had no 'pre-scare' as you say - did i mention no one realised the placenta was blocking the exit? easily picked up by one ultrasound. she was raced to hospital bleeding and traumatised for her emergency caesarean.

she BELIEVED she could birth at home. she had all the nature girl friends on her hippy board but you know what, our bodies and lifestyles AREN'T made for cave-birthing anymore.

if you can do it, you are lucky but i certainly wouldn't recommend it.

/rant.

Fuck yeah!

Erines1111
11-28-2008, 09:31 AM
I must say I love this public health debate. Ultimately, the issue is about choice. Obviously, no one would force someone to give birth at home unassisted if they wanted a hospital/medical birth. That is respected. However, women who choose to give birth at home unassisted are not given the same respect.
Also:

"Hmm, modern healthcare is less readily available in developing nations and more births are likely to be done at home..."

Although it is likely true that in developing nations more births are done at home----it does not mean that there is a correlation between home birth and ecampsia or any other medical issue. This is a false (or rather, unproven) correlation--and tons of them seem to floating around.

LizardQueen
11-28-2008, 02:11 PM
Although it is likely true that in developing nations more births are done at home----it does not mean that there is a correlation between home birth and ecampsia or any other medical issue. This is a false (or rather, unproven) correlation--and tons of them seem to floating around.

Ahh, of course it doesn't mean there is a correlation between at-home births and eclampsia. It means it's ludicrous to say there is a correlation between medical births and eclampsia. I thought my point was pretty obvious.

Nautilus
11-28-2008, 03:16 PM
it's not about respect, its about irresponsible misinformation from both camps.

women need to be encouraged to read everything from both sides then make a decision.

most importantly, the massive guilt-trip and fail-merchantry that is peddled if you don't want to take the hippy route needs to stop.

it seems that the 'natural' camp is almost as militant as the anti-abortion camp.

fight that one out.

ViolaStrings
11-28-2008, 03:26 PM
^ I like how you say anti-abortion, I totally agree with that. They are not pro life, they're pro birth. Once the baby pops out, all these militant anti-abortionists don't give a shit about the quality life of the child.

I would never, ever give birth outside of a hospital or without painkillers. I saw my sister give birth, and there was nothing orgasmic or beautiful or special about her asshole getting ripped, the placenta, and her puking and shitting during the pushing. Now her daughter was beautiful and special, but the birth was something out of Saw IV. Numb me out for that part.

Nautilus
11-28-2008, 04:38 PM
saw IV puts it mildly.

the plus is that you do feel like a fucking superhero for surviving that shit.

Rockell
11-28-2008, 06:10 PM
saw IV puts it mildly.

the plus is that you do feel like a fucking superhero for surviving that shit.

I don't think I could've ever survived childbirth without painkillers or the medical staff that were present for my sons birth. I couldn't imagine giving birth alone at home without a doctor present. Plus, I enjoyed my final 3 days of having someone take care of me and my baby in the hospital before I was sent home to be a mother on my own.