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Narcissus
11-09-2008, 02:53 AM
50 hours a week is not alot. it is less than one hour per week for a year. At my high school we had to do so many hours before we could graduate.
i think its a wonderful idea, and it really taught us some values we wouldnt otherwise have.
we also got scholarships, and financial aid.
people always talk about how they want the world to be a nicer place, but dont want to find ways to do it.
thats like opposing gym in schools because its not "educational". ok but its part of being a well rounded human being.
this site always reminds me of how lazy and spoiled americans are.
why dispute something that will help the next generation be better people?
why would volunteer work anger you to the point of not sending your children to school? its just ridiculous.

The problem that so many people have with Obama and this social policy, is not with the number of hours required or any of that ilk. It is based on the direction that this type of policy leads us as a nation. Mandatory service is not a good thing.

Sure, this program has many inherent benefits, however one could argue that it is the place of the parents to teach children good social behavior and responsibility ... not the government. That type of thinking would have us allowing the government teach our children what moral beliefs to hold and which religion to prescribe to.

We are 'lazy' because we are fighting a social program that would force our children to do mandatory service? Where does that even come from? Where do you get your basis for that statement?

Great job at generalizing 'Americans' as a lazy people and then supporting it with something that leads no credence to what you just said. /:O

Narcissus

flickad
11-09-2008, 02:56 AM
I would apologize for my irritation at you as well as include any slights made, but you were, in several threads arguing points that had virtually nothing to do with my original posts/thoughts on the matter and then labeling them outrageous things ... therefore debunking my opinion based on a fallacious skew. I feel that my irritation, and therefore any heated unnecessary comments, were fully justified. I don't have a problem with people holding a differing view than I ... I just have a problem with people searching for an argument and/or attempting to find an easy way to discredit an opposing view. Big difference. :)

Wealth redistribution at its most base form is hardly what I would consider a soft social reform. True, definitions may be apt ... yet saying the titanic was large would be true as well, but does so little in describing its massive size. When the government starts deciding who has too much money, takes some of that money, and then distributes that money to those it deems are deserving ... that is a radical move away from capitalism. It starts down a road of reform and class warfare that goes against the very ideology that capitalism stands for.

Yes, I agree that we have instituted similar policies in the past. It still is a step in the wrong direction (the same as socialized/universal health care) and more extreme than ever before. Add to that the fact that Obama is an admirer (or was in his younger days - lol) of the man that is arguably the father of the radical movement. I'm not sure what you read about the guy, but he is famous for inventing community organizing as a political camouflage for subverting America's democracy and capitalist economy. He details numerous ways in which a man can rise in political power and beguile a country into changing into an 'idealistic socialistic society'. He is what an informed American would label as: 'a bad, bad man'.

Then when you mix even even more radical influences that they guy had throughout the majority of his life (beyond that of Saul Alinsky), it makes the his motives a bit more clear. Here is a small list of the most well known connections that Obama has had:

Bill Ayers - Frank Marshall Davis - Rev. Jeremiah Wright - Father Michael Pfleger - Antoin Rezko

Narcissus

To apologise and then deem your actions completely justifiable is to negate the apology. I did not exaggerate at all. I stated that it seemed to me you were making the implication that socialised medicine and graduated taxes might be beginning of the end for capitalism, and you have re-stated precisely that just now, though in less succinct form. My argument was that, in other developed countries, these measures had not led to a dictatorship of the proletariat (so to speak) and that I accordingly thought any perceived threat to capitalism as a whole was exaggerated by you. I'm summarising here, these were not my exact words, but it was the thrust of my argument.

I was not making this contention in order to antagonise or bruise your ego. Frankly, I don't know why I'd bother 'searching for an argument' or trying to discredit something if I thought it was true. I'm not that much in need of a distraction.

I searched for your early posts maybe half an hour ago, since I can't recall seeing you here before, and noticed that you have a habit of speaking sneeringly to those who disagree with you, though none of them attacked you personally or made poorly reasoned arguments, so I must conclude that I am not the problem here.

I am not going to comment further on Alinsky as I have not read the books in question, but I will state that my brief spate of internet research turned up little of what I would term doom and gloom. I will also say that an idealistic socialistic society sounds like a good one to me, as long as a balance is struck in terms of civil liberties.

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 02:59 AM
on the subject of rev. wright, i would like to point out that thats he is representative of every preacher in a black church in america.
can you blame him for being disillusioned by the idea of patriotism?
what has america done for an old black man beside marginalize, and beat into the ground any piece of self confidence and hope they may have had when they were younger?
this country has been very hard on black men since we came here. its a wonder obama managed to scrape up any hope for change at all.
and thank God he did.
Rev. Wright has lived through the civil rights movement, rodney king, today's unbalanced amount f black people living in poverty, and countless other injustices.
he has no reason to like anything about this country.

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 03:16 AM
The problem that so many people have with Obama and this social policy, is not with the number of hours required or any of that ilk. It is based on the direction that this type of policy leads us as a nation. Mandatory service is not a good thing.

Sure, this program has many inherent benefits, however one could argue that it is the place of the parents to teach children good social behavior and responsibility ... not the government. That type of thinking would have us allowing the government teach our children what moral beliefs to hold and which religion to prescribe to.

We are 'lazy' because we are fighting a social program that would force our children to do mandatory service? Where does that even come from? Where do you get your basis for that statement?

Great job at generalizing 'Americans' as a lazy people and then supporting it with something that leads no credence to what you just said. /:O

Narcissus

lmao. you seem to think that america is in good moral standing right now. lmao. ha. ha. ha
clearly parents are not doing a good job of teaching their children morals. have you seen mtv lately? off subject.....

my point is this, school is mandatory and i dont see you protesting that.
why? because it is good for society that children are required to go to school. it is also good for children to learn to help others.

you think when school became mandatory,there werent those who were upset because they didnt think their child should be made to go? but look at how its helped our society.
government shapes our values in countless ways, laws on gay marriage, abortion, social programs, education. why not sprinkle something positive in there, that may help our children become decent human beings? past what we as parents teach them?

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 03:48 AM
To apologise and then deem your actions completely justifiable is to negate the apology. I did not exaggerate at all. I stated that it seemed to me you were making the implication that socialised medicine and graduated taxes might be beginning of the end for capitalism, and you have re-stated precisely that just now, though in less succinct form. My argument was that, in other developed countries, these measures had not led to a dictatorship of the proletariat (so to speak) and that I accordingly thought any perceived threat to capitalism as a whole was exaggerated by you. I'm summarising here, these were not my exact words, but it was the thrust of my argument.

I was not making this contention in order to antagonise or bruise your ego. Frankly, I don't know why I'd bother 'searching for an argument' or trying to discredit something if I thought it was true. I'm not that much in need of a distraction.

I searched for your early posts maybe half an hour ago, since I can't recall seeing you here before, and noticed that you have a habit of speaking sneeringly to those who disagree with you, though none of them attacked you personally or made poorly reasoned arguments, so I must conclude that I am not the problem here.

I am not going to comment further on Alinsky as I have not read the books in question, but I will state that my brief spate of internet research turned up little of what I would term doom and gloom. I will also say that an idealistic socialistic society sounds like a good one to me, as long as a balance is struck in terms of civil liberties.

Is it the way I talk that causes you to have a problem understanding me? I didn't apologize in that quote ... I did the exact opposite and explained why I felt justified in not apologizing.

As for my negative, offensive, threatened, berating attitude (whatever you choose to label it) ... oh well. I have a serious problem with people who attempt to sound intelligent and well informed on an internet website and then miss the most obvious correlations (or complete lack of) between my views and their arguments against said views. If you took the time to read my older posts, you might be pleasantly surprised that I got irritated and frustrated with an individual that continually argued against documented AIDs and HIV percentages in America and the growth rate of those percentages. Even after being shown proof (direct links), she continued to argue.

If you are wondering how I could remember way back then without looking back to see (I assure you ... I didn't), it is because it is a very sensitive subject to me and her attitude and our subsequent arguments were so out of the ordinary that I still remember it.

As for our little debate (yours and mine), you continue to take a tiny piece of the pie, taste it, and then tell me how great the entire meal was when you ate nothing more than the bite of pie. Then you wonder why I get agitated and confrontational ... ?


on the subject of rev. wright, i would like to point out that thats he is representative of every preacher in a black church in america.
can you blame him for being disillusioned by the idea of patriotism?
what has america done for an old black man beside marginalize, and beat into the ground any piece of self confidence and hope they may have had when they were younger?
this country has been very hard on black men since we came here. its a wonder obama managed to scrape up any hope for change at all.
and thank God he did.
Rev. Wright has lived through the civil rights movement, rodney king, today's unbalanced amount f black people living in poverty, and countless other injustices.
he has no reason to like anything about this country.

Funny. I've probably met more black preachers than most and I've never met a single one that could be considered as represented by Rev. Wright. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to wager that I've met many that would be absolutely furious if even compared to him. Rev. Wright does not preach religion ... he preaches hate, he peddles hate, and he thrives on hate. Rev Wright is a hate monger and he uses racism as his platform ... He ranks right up there with Al Sharpton as being a broker, provoker, and beneficiary of racial hate.

I've never met the man. I've never sat through one of his sermons. I have, however, read a few of them and even caught glimpses of him at his finest. That was far more than enough ...


lmao. you seem to think that america is in good moral standing right now. lmao. ha. ha. ha
clearly parents are not doing a good job of teaching their children morals. have you seen mtv lately? off subject.....

my point is this, school is mandatory and i dont see you protesting that.
why? because it is good for society that children are required to go to school. it is also good for children to learn to help others.

you think when school became mandatory,there werent those who were upset because they didnt think their child should be made to go? but look at how its helped our society.
government shapes our values in countless ways, laws on gay marriage, abortion, social programs, education. why not sprinkle something positive in there, that may help our children become decent human beings? past what we as parents teach them?

Where did I say that America had good moral standing? Where did I say that? I'll help you out on this one: I didn't.

So because school is mandatory, we should not balk at anything that the government decides to make mandatory ... as long as it has something that could be considered positive associated with it?

Brilliant! So you won't mind being forced (read: mandatory) to join the military (everyone must serve) and being sent to Afghanistan? It has a good associated with it: it would teach people how to work together and get along and maybe even offer them an alternative career path!

You make no sense whatsoever. You claim that because one thing has an associated positive attached ... then everything that has an associated positive attached must also be good. Wow. :D

Narcissus

flickad
11-09-2008, 04:05 AM
Is it the way I talk that causes you to have a problem understanding me? I didn't apologize in that quote ... I did the exact opposite and explained why I felt justified in not apologizing.

As for my negative, offensive, threatened, berating attitude (whatever you choose to label it) ... oh well. I have a serious problem with people who attempt to sound intelligent and well informed on an internet website and then miss the most obvious correlations (or complete lack of) between my views and their arguments against said views. If you took the time to read my older posts, you might be pleasantly surprised that I got irritated and frustrated with an individual that continually argued against documented AIDs and HIV percentages in America and the growth rate of those percentages. Even after being shown proof (direct links), she continued to argue.

If you are wondering how I could remember way back then without looking back to see (I assure you ... I didn't), it is because it is a very sensitive subject to me and her attitude and our subsequent arguments were so out of the ordinary that I still remember it.

As for our little debate (yours and mine), you continue to take a tiny piece of the pie, taste it, and then tell me how great the entire meal was when you ate nothing more than the bite of pie. Then you wonder why I get agitated and confrontational ... ?


What you said was:


I would apologize for my irritation at you as well as include any slights made, but you were, in several threads arguing points that had virtually nothing to do with my original posts/thoughts on the matter and then labeling them outrageous things ... therefore debunking my opinion based on a fallacious skew. I feel that my irritation, and therefore any heated unnecessary comments, were fully justified.

That to me sounded like an apology followed by a statement that you thought your rudeness was just fine and dandy.

I wasn't referring to the AIDS argument. I saw that and noted your personal interest in that particular topic, which might have shed light on your treatment of that member. I was referring to your arguments with Jenny and Mr. Hyde and also your recent confrontations with kiki. You become very abrupt and insulting when confronted with viewpoints you disagree with, and it's childish and uncalled for. Not one of these posters has attacked you personally, yet you resort to snark.

I think the correlations between your views and my contentions are self-evident. I will repeat for the umpteenth time that most of the developed world has instituted the kinds of measures Obama is likely to take sans the demise of capitalism. Your argument was, as I understand it, that these measures are the potential first steps to its demise. Do you see the relationship now or must I repeat myself again?

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 04:11 AM
Is it the way I talk that causes you to have a problem understanding me? I didn't apologize in that quote ... I did the exact opposite and explained why I felt justified in not apologizing.

As for my negative, offensive, threatened, berating attitude (whatever you choose to label it) ... oh well. I have a serious problem with people who attempt to sound intelligent and well informed on an internet website and then miss the most obvious correlations (or complete lack of) between my views and their arguments against said views. If you took the time to read my older posts, you might be pleasantly surprised that I got irritated and frustrated with an individual that continually argued against documented AIDs and HIV percentages in America and the growth rate of those percentages. Even after being shown proof (direct links), she continued to argue.

If you are wondering how I could remember way back then without looking back to see (I assure you ... I didn't), it is because it is a very sensitive subject to me and her attitude and our subsequent arguments were so out of the ordinary that I still remember it.

As for our little debate (yours and mine), you continue to take a tiny piece of the pie, taste it, and then tell me how great the entire meal was when you ate nothing more than the bite of pie. Then you wonder why I get agitated and confrontational ... ?



Funny. I've probably met more black preachers than most and I've never met a single one that could be considered as represented by Rev. Wright. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to wager that I've met many that would be absolutely furious if even compared to him. Rev. Wright does not preach religion ... he preaches hate, he peddles hate, and he thrives on hate. Rev Wright is a hate monger and he uses racism as his platform ... He ranks right up there with Al Sharpton as being a broker, provoker, and beneficiary of racial hate.

I've never met the man. I've never sat through one of his sermons. I have, however, read a few of them and even caught glimpses of him at his finest. That was far more than enough ...



Where did I say that America had good moral standing? Where did I say that? I'll help you out on this one: I didn't.

So because school is mandatory, we should not balk at anything that the government decides to make mandatory ... as long as it has something that could be considered positive associated with it?

Brilliant! So you won't mind being forced (read: mandatory) to join the military (everyone must serve) and being sent to Afghanistan? It has a good associated with it: it would teach people how to work together and get along and maybe even offer them an alternative career path!

You make no sense whatsoever. You claim that because one thing has an associated positive attached ... then everything that has an associated positive attached must also be good. Wow. :D

Narcissus

i dont care how many preachers youve met. you are not privy to their innermost thoughts and feelings. you do not have the experience of being a black man in america, and could not possibly understand the psychological effects of it.
rev. wright is scary to yall because he says what everyone else is feeling.

funny that obama, a decent christian man came from the church of a hate monger!!! and funny that people keep going to his church. are they all hate mongers too? well damn where are the riots, because there are plenty of poor black people who attend his church.

if he is the ringleader why hasnt chicago burned to the ground yet? ::)
as a matter of fact, why havent many cities burned to the ground, because ive heard many sermons just like the infamous one from rev. wright? are they all hate mongers? oh no! maybe i should just be presbyterian!

i never said, you said america is in good moral standing. i said that you insinuated that parents are doing a good job of raising their children without help from the government.
first of all that cant be done, because the government is a part of everything we do, if it's obvious or not. second, they are not. the morals of our country are in the shitter.
btw, i dont think one is as likely to get blown up while they work at an animal shelter for an hour a week as they are halfway around the world in a warzone while on a 2 year tour of duty. yea thats the same thing. ::)

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 04:31 AM
That to me sounded like an apology followed by a statement that you thought your rudeness was just fine and dandy.

How that even remotely sounded like an apology to you is difficult for me to fathom, but whatever. Mistakes happen so that is moot.


I wasn't referring to the AIDS argument. I saw that and noted that you did not resort to personal slights in that particular instance. I was referring to your arguments with Jenny and Mr. Hyde and also your recent confrontations with kiki. You become very abrupt and insulting when confronted with viewpoints you disagree with, and it's childish and uncalled for. Not one of these posters has attacked you personally, yet you resort to snark.

Funny, yet I seem to recall that you had already made a reference to my personal slights before any real confrontation with kiki began. To now reference them ... bah, nevermind. Who cares? I don't. Simply put: if I sound childish and snarky in my frustrated replies then I simply point to my inability to deal well with those aforementioned types of people. Which .... brings me to yet my next point:

I've done a bit of background reading on you as well (thought I would return the favor). I've noticed that you also seem to have a propensity to, shall we say, disagree disagreeably often. I have also noticed that your choice of words took a decidedly more eloquent form recently. Interesting, don't you think? :D


I think the correlations between your views and my contentions are self-evident. I will repeat for the umpteenth time that most of the developed world has instituted the kinds of measures Obama is likely to take sans the demise of capitalism. Your argument was, as I understand it, that these measures are the potential first steps to its demise. Do you see the relationship now or must I repeat myself again?

Listen as I explain this once again. The concept is not that difficult to grasp. My whole premise is based around Obama's early influences/teachings and the striking resemblance of his career to those influences/teachings ... it does not stop at wealth redistribution at its current proposed level.

You, as some people must, are forced to break my argument down and then pick a segment, make it representative of my entire premise, and then throw wildly misrepresentative examples at it. Then, as now, you make marked comments about ... and I quote "I think the correlations between your views and my contentions are self-evident."

You have yet to say anything that holds any merit or substance beyond showing that redistribution of wealth doesn't cause a collapse of all things capitalistic ... which was never and has never been stated by me. I said that moving to a social platform that includes redistribution of wealth moves us farther away from true capitalism, which was true.

You have done nothing and proven nothing that is any way in contention to my original (or subsequent) post(s).

Is that simple enough for you?

Narcissus

flickad
11-09-2008, 04:45 AM
I've done a bit of background reading on you as well (thought I would return the favor). I've noticed that you also seem to have a propensity to, shall we say, disagree disagreeably often. I have also noticed that your choice of words took a decidedly more eloquent form recently. Interesting, don't you think? :D

I'm not sure what you're referring to, I don't think my level of eloquence has changed at all. Would you care to spell out your implications?

As to disagreeing, I enjoy political debate and happen to have different views from many on these forums. I don't think that disagreement as such is disagreeable. Indeed, I believe debate, particularly political debate is a healthy thing and a cornerstone of a free society (and is subject to constitutional protection from governmental interference in both our countries). I have never made my points impolitely or personally insulted someone with whom I've disagreed. Your use of the word 'disagreeable' with respect to divergences of opinion is telling.




Listen as I explain this once again. The concept is not that difficult to grasp. My whole premise is based around Obama's early influences/teachings and the striking resemblance of his career to those influences/teachings ... it does not stop at wealth redistribution at its current proposed level.

You, as some people must, are forced to break my argument down and then pick a segment, make it representative of my entire premise, and then throw wildly misrepresentative examples at it. Then, as now, you make marked comments about ... and I quote "I think the correlations between your views and my contentions are self-evident."

You have yet to say anything that holds any merit or substance beyond showing that redistribution of wealth doesn't cause a collapse of all things capitalistic ... which was never and has never been stated by me. I said that moving to a social platform that includes redistribution of wealth moves us farther away from true capitalism, which was true.

You have done nothing and proven nothing that is any way in contention to my original (or subsequent) post(s).

Is that simple enough for you?

Narcissus

On the main you used the term 'capitalism' as opposed to 'true capitalism' (which I would take to mean capitalism without modifications). Using the latter term, I would agree that any redistribution of wealth is a step away from capitalism in its purest of forms. So are child labour laws and various other regulatory measures that have been instituted since Dickens' day. As you did not qualify your argument, I thought that my contention was pertinent.

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 04:57 AM
i dont care how many preachers youve met. you are not privy to their innermost thoughts and feelings. you do not have the experience of being a black man in america, and could not possibly understand the psychological effects of it.
rev. wright is scary to yall because he says what everyone else is feeling.

funny that obama, a decent christian man came from the church of a hate monger!!! and funny that people keep going to his church. are they all hate mongers too? well damn where are the riots, because there are plenty of poor black people who attend his church.

if he is the ringleader why hasnt chicago burned to the ground yet? ::)
as a matter of fact, why havent many cities burned to the ground, because ive heard many sermons just like the infamous one from rev. wright? are they all hate mongers? oh no! maybe i should just be presbyterian!

i never said, you said america is in good moral standing. i said that you insinuated that parents are doing a good job of raising their children without help from the government.
first of all that cant be done, because the government is a part of everything we do, if it's obvious or not. second, they are not. the morals of our country are in the shitter.
btw, i dont think one is as likely to get blown up while they work at an animal shelter for an hour a week as they are halfway around the world in a warzone while on a 2 year tour of duty. yea thats the same thing. ::)

Gimme a break! I can't know what a black man could feel deep down inside because I'm not black? What the hell? Shit like that is what keeps racism alive in this country.

By the way ... ""rev. wright is scary to yall because he says what everyone else is feeling."" ... had I made a comment like that, in reference to a white preacher ... you would be screaming at the top of your lungs about racism and bigotry. Reverse racism/bigotry FTW!

Rev Wright isn't scary to me, just so you will know. He is a disgusting piece of wasted protoplasm that takes advantage of the black community. I despise him for what he is, but have no fear of him. Why the fuck would I fear him? Because he preaches hate against me?

You assume that Obama is a decent christian man ... yet after listening to that fruit loop, how can you be so sure? He couldn't have been listening very well as he claims to have never heard any of Rev. Wrights hate mongering in how many years ...

Oh! Maybe that means that he couldn't be a good christian because he wasn't listening while at church! Oooooh!

Roflmao ... give me a break!

You apparently missed the fact that I was being facetious about the 'going to Afghanistan' thing. It was a mocking representation of your line of thinking. :shakes head:

I also never said that I thought parents were doing a good job at raising their children. Great job at assuming something when you can't figure out what I mean!

I think parents are doing a horrid job at raising their children ... I was saying that regardless, it is not the governments job to teach our children responsibility and what good moral values are. That is not what a government is for. It is the job of the parents ...

If you hate the way children are raised these days, why not blame their lousy piece of shit parents and put blame where it is highly deserved rather than building a solution to the results of a differing problem. News flash, this is the wrong way to think: why take a nail out of my hand when I can just take some asprin and stop hurting. Brilliant!

Narcissus

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 05:14 AM
I'm not sure what you're referring to, I don't think my level of eloquence has changed at all. Would you care to spell out your implications?

Y - O - U - R
I - M - P - L - I - C - A - T - I - O -N - S - ?

Sorry, I had to do that. Obama made me do it. }:D


As to disagreeing, I enjoy political debate and happen to have different views from many on these forums. I don't think that disagreement as such is disagreeable. Indeed, I believe debate, particularly political debate is a healthy thing and a cornerstone of a free society (and is subject to constitutional protection from governmental interference in both our countries). I have never made my points impolitely or personally insulted someone with whom I've disagreed. Your use of the word 'disagreeable' with respect to divergences of opinion is telling.

Do you hear the mangled stuff you are saying? Seriously? My use of the word 'disagreeable' with respect to divergences of opinion is telling? Stop. Seriously. You are one of the most annoying posters I've ever had the misfortune of reading.

You state about how you are all about political debate and how excellent it is ... yet five?, ten? posts into debating my opinion and you still haven't even touched on what my opinion is? You chose a few select pieces of what I said, used grossly unrepresentative examples to attack it, then have puffed out your chest and represented yourself as the winner of a debate.

Hey there ... we haven't debated anything except your ill concieved notion of a debunking argument ... which was still wrong of its own merits. Hello? Are you reading the words that I am typing?


On the main you used the term 'capitalism' as opposed to 'true capitalism' (which I would take to mean capitalism without modifications). Using the latter term, I would agree that any redistribution of wealth is a step away from capitalism in its purest of forms. So are child labour laws and various other regulatory measures that have been instituted since Dickens' day. As you did not qualify your argument, I thought that my contention was pertinent.

I must say this: you will make an excellent lawyer if your ability to becloud spoken words is anywhere near the equal to your written ability. You make insipid, vapid comments and then boast at your success. What the heck is wrong here? Either I am confusing you, you are confusing you, or you are enjoying this. Sheesh.

Narcissus

flickad
11-09-2008, 05:26 AM
Y - O - U - R
I - M - P - L - I - C - A - T - I - O -N - S - ?

Sorry, I had to do that. Obama made me do it. }:D

Very droll *eyeroll*.



Do you hear the mangled stuff you are saying? Seriously? My use of the word 'disagreeable' with respect to divergences of opinion is telling? Stop. Seriously. You are one of the most annoying posters I've ever had the misfortune of reading.

I think it is telling, when coupled with your belittling of anyone who happens to express an opinion different from your own. To be frank, I find you a rather irritating individual myself, though you might note that this hasn't resulted in loss of temper or flinging insults.


You state about how you are all about political debate and how excellent it is ... yet five?, ten? posts into debating my opinion and you still haven't even touched on what my opinion is? You chose a few select pieces of what I said, used grossly unrepresentative examples to attack it, then have puffed out your chest and represented yourself as the winner of a debate.

Hey there ... we haven't debated anything except your ill concieved notion of a debunking argument ... which was still wrong of its own merits. Hello? Are you reading the words that I am typing?

Since you didn't bother to state what you actually meant (ie that you were referring to untramelled capitalism as opposed to the popular notion of capitalism), I addressed my contentions on my assumption that you meant the latter.

I never puffed out my chest or referred to myself as the winner. Sure, I didn't refer to every nuance of the points you made. I referred, instead, to their thrust- that Obama's promised reforms formed part of a bigger picture that was a threat to capitalism as America knows it. I'm entitled to decide which points I will take issue with and which I will not, just as you are.



must say this: you will make an excellent lawyer if your ability to becloud spoken words is anywhere near the equal to your written ability. You make insipid, vapid comments and then boast at your success. What the heck is wrong here?

Boast at my success? Show me where I did that. I stated that I'd thought my argument was pertinent, based on your contention before you placed a qualification on it, but that's hardly a boast.

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 05:29 AM
Gimme a break! I can't know what a black man could feel deep down inside because I'm not black? What the hell? Shit like that is what keeps racism alive in this country.

By the way ... ""rev. wright is scary to yall because he says what everyone else is feeling."" ... had I made a comment like that, in reference to a white preacher ... you would be screaming at the top of your lungs about racism and bigotry. Reverse racism/bigotry FTW!

Rev Wright isn't scary to me, just so you will know. He is a disgusting piece of wasted protoplasm that takes advantage of the black community. I despise him for what he is, but have no fear of him. Why the fuck would I fear him? Because he preaches hate against me?

You assume that Obama is a decent christian man ... yet after listening to that fruit loop, how can you be so sure? He couldn't have been listening very well as he claims to have never heard any of Rev. Wrights hate mongering in how many years ...

Oh! Maybe that means that he couldn't be a good christian because he wasn't listening while at church! Oooooh!

Roflmao ... give me a break!

You apparently missed the fact that I was being facetious about the 'going to Afghanistan' thing. It was a mocking representation of your line of thinking. :shakes head:

I also never said that I thought parents were doing a good job at raising their children. Great job at assuming something when you can't figure out what I mean!

I think parents are doing a horrid job at raising their children ... I was saying that regardless, it is not the governments job to teach our children responsibility and what good moral values are. That is not what a government is for. It is the job of the parents ...

If you hate the way children are raised these days, why not blame their lousy piece of shit parents and put blame where it is highly deserved rather than building a solution to the results of a differing problem. News flash, this is the wrong way to think: why take a nail out of my hand when I can just take some asprin and stop hurting. Brilliant!

Narcissus

no you naive little boy.
you cannot know what it is like to be black.
you can never know.you naive, naive, little boy. if you think you can know for one second what it feels like to live in a country that is not yours,
then you are far more ignorant than i originally believed. im quite offended that you think you can channel our experiences.
wow.
also i was referring to people who were upset by rev. wright, not white people. many people are scared of him. anger is another form of fear.

i think you fail to realize how deep this whole this goes. for you, its politics. for black people it is a deeply personal and psychological experience that goes with seeing a black man at the head of a country that we simply inhabit.
and no you cannot understand it. your best bet is to know your ignorance, and find ways to work around it. the most ignorant man is one who does not know of his ignorance.

once again i shall repeat, that i never said you thought parents were doing a good job. im not going to keep repeating myself to you this is the third time ive typed this same sentence.
you insinuated that they could be raised without the input of the government. parents are not doing well. therefore it would be great if the government could step in a teach them a little community service, not take over their lives, or raise them, just teach them a little empathy for others

.if its not the governments job, and the parents are slacking, then should we just accept selfish, lazy, unsympathetic children? no. we can try to instill a little bit of american values in them. namely community service.

also you are rude. you must have never taken a debate, or philosphy class. you need to look up the correct way to argue, since we are telling each other what to do. inductive and deductive reasoning. while youre there check out an article or two on white privilege, and the effects of the slave mentality.
btw. you are the one who chose to liken community service to Afghanistan. i was just going along with your idiocrity, thinking maybe i was speaking in terms that you would understand.
ive never heard any hate mongering from my preachers either. i call it venting frustrations.

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 07:14 AM
no you naive little boy.
you cannot know what it is like to be black.
you can never know.you naive, naive, little boy. if you think you can know for one second what it feels like to live in a country that is not yours,
then you are far more ignorant than i originally believed. im quite offended that you think you can channel our experiences.
wow.
also i was referring to people who were upset by rev. wright, not white people. many people are scared of him. anger is another form of fear.

i think you fail to realize how deep this whole this goes. for you, its politics. for black people it is a deeply personal and psychological experience that goes with seeing a black man at the head of a country that we simply inhabit.
and no you cannot understand it. your best bet is to know your ignorance, and find ways to work around it. the most ignorant man is one who does not know of his ignorance.

once again i shall repeat, that i never said you thought parents were doing a good job. im not going to keep repeating myself to you this is the third time ive typed this same sentence.
you insinuated that they could be raised without the input of the government. parents are not doing well. therefore it would be great if the government could step in a teach them a little community service, not take over their lives, or raise them, just teach them a little empathy for others

.if its not the governments job, and the parents are slacking, then should we just accept selfish, lazy, unsympathetic children? no. we can try to instill a little bit of american values in them. namely community service.

also you are rude. you must have never taken a debate, or philosphy class. you need to look up the correct way to argue, since we are telling each other what to do. inductive and deductive reasoning. while youre there check out an article or two on white privilege, and the effects of the slave mentality.
btw. you are the one who chose to liken community service to Afghanistan. i was just going along with your idiocrity, thinking maybe i was speaking in terms that you would understand.
ive never heard any hate mongering from my preachers either. i call it venting frustrations.


i never said you thought parents were doing a good job.
i never said, you said america is in good moral standing. i said that you insinuated that parents are doing a good job of raising their children without help from the government.

Anything else you'd like to add? Heeh.



As far as the race woes ... give me a fucking break. I'm so sick of this 'chip on my shoulder' bullshit mentality.

There is racism in this country, I acknowledge that. There is bigotry in this country, I acknowledge that as well. However, it is nowhere near as mainstream or prolific as it is made out to be.

Do I 'know' what it is like to be a black man who was once a slave? Nope, and neither do you. Do I 'know' what it is like to be a black man whose parents were once slaves? Nope, and neither do you. Do I 'know' what it is like to be a black man whose grandparents were once slaves? Nope, and neither do you.

Enough is enough. Get off the damn soapbox. I've never owned a slave, my parents never owned a slave, my grandparents never owned a slave, etc ... why in hell are you force-feeding me a spoonful of guilt? Why should I feel guilty because of something that less than ten percent of whites did back in the annals of U.S. history? Why should I feel sorry for you, or the anonymous 'black man' that was abused years and years ago?

I'm partly American Indian ... should I decry the woes I suffer because of the mass murdering and theft done to them?

You can make all the fallacious claims that you want as to why, as a race, black Americans are so poverty stricken ... or why such a huge percentage of black males are in prison ... or whatever. The facts are easy to find ... statistics don't lie and you have the power of the web at your fingertips. Racism: not a factor. That huge chip on your shoulder: I think we are getting warmer.

You can scream that I'm racist at the top of your lungs if that makes you feel better, although since I have anonymity (it is just the internet) I would easily be able to admit if I were ... however, I'm not. I fear that you won't believe that or take me at face value due to that enormous chip on your shoulder. So be it.

I spent a large portion of my youth growing up in predominantly black neighborhoods, so no one can tell me that I don't know what it is like. No one.

My family was poor. Dirt poor. I distinctly remember when we finally moved into a trailer from a shit-hole apartment ... and how ecstatic we were.

I remember getting my ass laughed at in class because I couldn't qualify for a third of the loans, grants, and scholarships that my classmates could. You know when the school councilor comes into class and explains about scholarships and such. Why? I had great grades, but because my parents both had jobs, I'm white, and I'm male ... I was fucked. That, my friend, is racism.

Every time that I turn on the t.v. and run past B.E.T., I get irritated. Why? Because there is no way at all I could start a station called W.E.T., could I?

Every time I'm around any blacks outside of my close friends, I have to watch what I say. I can't use a simple term like 'boy' without fear of a racially charged accusation.

Racism and bigotry easily goes both ways. For you to sit there and treat me like an errant child and explain to me that I don't know and can't know what it is like is a load of shit.

Thanks to white guilt (mostly our own fault), political correctness, and a heaping dose of reverse racism ... I probably know better than you do.

I spent far too much time growing up around blacks to not know that they are far more racist blacks than whites ... but that is always denied or avoided. That chip on your shoulder that tells you I owe you something because I'm white is a load of it. Then shit like this comes up and someone, inevitably, cries race. Pfft.

Maybe I can start a group, white men only ... and we can call it '100 white men'. What? That would be racist? But what about the '100 black men', huh?

How would you have reacted if that mannequin (I think it was in San Fran) depicting Sarah Palin being hung ... had been black and was intended to represent Obama? Oh ... then it would've been a race issue. Even though whites were hung as well, back in the day ...

The racial compass in this country has taken a sharp direction change, but you refuse to see that because then you would have nothing to bemoan.

A large portion of supposed racism I've witnessed has had the same consistency of warm, moist air ... no matter how hard you try and grab it, it just isn't there. The few instances where I have heard of anything outright racial has been at clubs and made by guys showing out and the like. Rarely is it more than mere words ... usually it has no hate or malice behind it. Yet I've also seen the opposite (far more often) of girls calling customers racist because they wanted a white girl riding their lap rather than them.

Get over it. You subscribe to a zealot racism hate monger like Rev Wright, but I am unable to understand what it is like to see bigotry aimed at me?

Think about it ... not that I suspect you will do anything more than rave at my 'ignorance' and or 'racist views' etc. Believe what you will ...

Narcissus

Paul in Saudi
11-09-2008, 08:50 AM
The Department of Education is prohibited by statute from making graduation requirements or requiring any specific program of studies.

Try to relax.

LizardQueen
11-09-2008, 11:51 AM
^^^ Exactly! This may be mandatory for kids in public school, but MOST high schools and many middle schools already require volunteer hours as a condition for graduation. What Obama is proposing is making government tuition help available for university students who are willing to trade their time and help to earn the extra money. And since most driven college students volunteer anyway for grad school or transfer reasons, I think it's an awesome plan.

There's too much scare-mongering going on.

And because this is Member Boards: Narcissus, your name suits you and please stop being a cunt.

LizardQueen
11-09-2008, 12:05 PM
Do I 'know' what it is like to be a black man who was once a slave? Nope, and neither do you. Do I 'know' what it is like to be a black man whose parents were once slaves? Nope, and neither do you. Do I 'know' what it is like to be a black man whose grandparents were once slaves? Nope, and neither do you.

Enough is enough. Get off the damn soapbox. I've never owned a slave, my parents never owned a slave, my grandparents never owned a slave, etc ... why in hell are you force-feeding me a spoonful of guilt? Why should I feel guilty because of something that less than ten percent of whites did back in the annals of U.S. history? Why should I feel sorry for you, or the anonymous 'black man' that was abused years and years ago?


Thanks to white guilt (mostly our own fault), political correctness, and a heaping dose of reverse racism ... I probably know better than you do.

I spent far too much time growing up around blacks to not know that they are far more racist blacks than whites ... but that is always denied or avoided. That chip on your shoulder that tells you I owe you something because I'm white is a load of it. Then shit like this comes up and someone, inevitably, cries race. Pfft.

Narcissus

You very obviously do not get it. Racial subjugation goes much further than slavery. Have you studied history? (Since you're being a condescending bitch, I will too.) Jim Crow laws were around until 1965. That's only about 40 years ago, and there are plenty of disillusioned black Americans still around who have felt their sting.

Jim Crow laws = we brought you here against your will, raped your women, tortured you, almost eradicated your native culture, finally freed you, but now we don't want anything to do with you. Essentially, "You, blacks, are not GOOD enough for white America."

Only until quite recently has there been a true shift in racial mentality, especially since younger generations are being exposed to more and more (unfortunately frequently stereotypical) images of blacks in the media, etc.

Any way you want to cut the pie, there is something that still exists and will continue to exist unless blacks are no longer the minority. This is called white privilege. Unavoidable, not necessarily malicious, many times subconscious, white privilege is the fact that I am white and in a world where the majority of people look like me (albeit on a superficial level), I have an advantage. Whether driven by racism or not, humans naturally tend to associate themselves with people that look like them.

If you read any of the threads in hustle hut about mirroring, you'll see a taste of how this works. When I go for a job interview or go apartment-hunting, I subconsciously earn a bit of trust whether I mean to or not. You could say that that would work against me if I wanted to work for an all-black company or live in an all-black apartment complex. However, since I am white, I have so many options with white companies that I don't even have to put myself in that position. By and large, black Americans looking to integrate or move up in the corporate world are forced to put themselves at this disadvantage.

If you try to pull your simplistic "white guilt" accusations on me, my intelligence will be insulted. My heart does sympathize with the past and less frequent/abhorrent current injustices done to the black community, but my head is capable enough to understand the issues that do linger as a result of such inhumanity.

Jabba_WTF?
11-09-2008, 12:17 PM
The Department of Education is prohibited by statute from making graduation requirements or requiring any specific program of studies.

Try to relax.
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/8866/tweekbe3.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tweekbe3.jpg)

(http://g.imageshack.us/img530/tweekbe3.jpg/1/)

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 12:41 PM
^^ never once did i say you were a racist. i said you were ignorant.
besides that, if you think racism is limited to overt racism such as being called the n word, or being turned down for a job, clearly for your race, you are sadly mkistaken.
white people always say oh im not racist, i would never call anyone the n word. yet they clutch their purse in the elevator with a black man. and im not talking a thug type. im talking a black man in a suit and tie, who works in their office.
oh thats just how is was raised!
do some research. know what youre talking about.
am i supposed to feel sorry for you because you were poor? whoop de doo.

like i said read up on the slave mentality. it has nothing to do with having been, or knowing slaves. obviously i was not a slave. duh. thats not why im mad.
it has to do with the mentality that has been passed down through the generations.
do your research before you speak on something you have no idea about.
ex. why do most black people whup their kids, where as most white people has "moved past" that?
because when there were slaves, the only way they had ever discipline was through violence. and sadly if they did not discipline their kids, their master's punishment would be much worse, than a simple whuppin'.
what does that have to do with now?
because of this. i whup my kids because my parents whupped me, and i came out just fine.
i whup my kids because my parents whupped me, and i came out fine,
i whup my kids because my parents whupped me and i came out fine,
i whup my kids because my parents whupped me, and i came out fine......
all the way down the generations to today.
even though it's well documented that whupping causes aggression in children.
now why havent they just stopped?
because most black people are not higher educated. they may have heard on tv once or twice that they shouldnt whup their kids, but it can easily be attributed to "thats something that white people do"
higher educated people are aware of the studies, and know that they could be causing more harm than good to their kids.
most blacks live in areas where everyone they know has grown up being whupped, and they came out "fine".
not realizing they are creating aggresion in their kids that is often the cause of acting up in school, and an underlying cause for violence.
my point is that racism is so much more than overt racism.
you dont have to agree with me, but you should realize there is far more going on, then what one can see as an outsider.
once again, do some research before you respond, so you wont sound stupid. "i cant know whats it's like to be a black man?" HA! no you cant.
you can know whats its like to be poor. two different things.
I think im just about done with you N. your ignorance insults and angers me.
it just reminds me of the discord between people living in the same country.

Lady
11-09-2008, 12:45 PM
Forcing kids to do community service will most likly NOT result a better kinder nation of the next generation. give me a breeak. It wil probably give kids an excuse to get out of legitimate classes to go play monopoly with their grandma.
All this is is a small step to the gov having more control over our lives. Personally, I dont want the gov to have all that control over my life. I understand that it is needed in some areas, but this is most definitly not one of them.
What if the gov forced parents to bring their kids to religious places because it made them better people! It isnt the gov job to make us better ppl. Its the gov job to protect the rights of its citizens.
The more mandatory things that the gov imposes on us the less 'free' we are, hence drawing away from the entire america premise as a 'free' country.

Lady
11-09-2008, 12:49 PM
as far as white people not knowing what its like to be black, ok whatever, and you dont knwo what it is like to be white, and niether group knows what it is like to be latino, and men dont know what it is like to be women and women dont know what it is like to be me. the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, right?
everyone should completly stop blamin ganything on their sex, race, religion. If you ahve a disadvantage, suck it up. Deal with it. You dont hear one legged ppl constantly screaming that they dont have it as good as two legged people. they suck it up and make the most out of it.
If you feel your are underprivlaged or cant do something becase of your race. Why dont you do somehting about it. Yeah, it might be alittle harder for you than others, but bitching isnt going to change anything. Just suck it up and get what you want and stop feeling sorry for your self.

hockeybobby
11-09-2008, 12:50 PM
This whole page = TL ; DR :)

Lady
11-09-2008, 12:54 PM
i dont know what TL or DR is. Im serious.

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 12:58 PM
as far as white people not knowing what its like to be black, ok whatever, and you dont knwo what it is like to be white, and niether group knows what it is like to be latino, and men dont know what it is like to be women and women dont know what it is like to be me. the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, right?
everyone should completly stop blamin ganything on their sex, race, religion. If you ahve a disadvantage, suck it up. Deal with it. You dont hear one legged ppl constantly screaming that they dont have it as good as two legged people. they suck it up and make the most out of it.
If you feel your are underprivlaged or cant do something becase of your race. Why dont you do somehting about it. Yeah, it might be alittle harder for you than others, but bitching isnt going to change anything. Just suck it up and get what you want and stop feeling sorry for your self.

you are irrelevant. dont jump in on an argument, when you didnt read all the posts. no one is complaining about how hard life is. i was informing nar. on things he clearly knows nothing about, although he thinks he does. i made no complaints at all, because i am quite proactive in changing my destiny. it is quite frustrating when people think they know something that they dont.

Lady
11-09-2008, 12:59 PM
wow .. just wow

Lady
11-09-2008, 01:01 PM
actually I do have a response. How dare anyone come in and say something that does not give another person amunition or justify how bad it is for THEM!
That IS what this boils down to. Men holding back women, white people holding down black people. All that crap. And thats all it is is crap. If you really feel that way then stop preaching and just change it for yourself.

LizardQueen
11-09-2008, 01:03 PM
When did we get so OT?

Lady
11-09-2008, 01:06 PM
what the heck does OT mean!!!!>:(
why does everyone insist on using little abbr=eviations that I cant understand!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

LizardQueen
11-09-2008, 01:08 PM
tl;dr = too long, didn't read

OT = off-topic

urbandictionary.com = has a lot of these

Lady
11-09-2008, 01:12 PM
I already said, it, but what the heck, i will say it again .... If this becomes an issue it will just give me that much more incentive to homeschool the childeren I plan to have. Hopefully they dont take that right away as well.

retiredangel
11-09-2008, 01:24 PM
This is a thread to be rekkoned with,LOL!

I will say that as someone who is married to someone/has busted her own ass to acquire wealth by hard work and sacrifice and some inheritance of land from those relatives who worked even harder,I am frightened to death of how the implied" re-distribution of wealth" might play out...as if it is remotely "fair/equal" to compare people who have done it the hard way,dotted all the i' and crossed all the t's to the MANY who are simply expecting to be "given to" for whatever reason...sorry,it sucks.

I do find it to be the beginning of the elimination of any sort of middle-class that remains (unless you're among the filthy rich,you're considered middle class) and the implication that I might ALSO be "required" to devote any of the time in my"retired years"to mandatory volunteerism disgusts me,seriously.

Gee....I haven't seen anything that might suggest that someone like me might get any sort of "incentive or break" because I PAID all my bills,taxes,and dues and haven't leeched off the system for years???
It's sort of like my f-ing health insurance company who has eliminated the "wellness clause/benefits" I used to get for not smoking and staying healthy,having preventive mamos and once a year exams,working out at a gym,etc...it's FAR more profitable for them if they negate the positive facts.

The suggestions of the new administration might all sound and look pretty damn appealing at first glance but I am totally convinced it's people like me who will be getting TOTALLY f-ed in this new administration and I'm dreading what's to come...has nothing to do with race,it has to do with reality.

LizardQueen
11-09-2008, 02:16 PM
And there's the problem. There wasn't any fervor. None of these people were members of the KKK, just common ordinary middle class folks saying what came naturally...


Very good post! The casual racism is the worst kind because it is the only kind that is ignored or even condoned in casual settings.

A guy I regret sleeping with once told me right afterward, "You're so hot. 99% of guys would fuck you. And that 1%? Those are just gay guys and guys that like black girls. Oh wait, no one likes black girls, not even black guys." Nice compliment, you stupid douche. ::)

Or how about at the party I went to in a well-to-do white neighborhood in my town when the subject of the Obama-lynch effigy came up over the beer pong table and was greeted with laughter?

Maybe also the parents of white, Vietnamese, Indian, AND Mexican friends of mine who have voiced their opinions on what they would do if their son/daughter ever dared to date a black person count.

And this is the young generation! And San Diego! As a pretty white college student I don't even have to experience the brunt of any of it myself. I just get to see it play out behind-the-scenes, and it's tiresome and disgusting.

White people: stop denying the race issues. Seriously. It just makes you look sheltered, oblivious, or permissive.

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 02:25 PM
Retiredangel: most poor people are not people who are just sitting on their asses. they work minimum wage jobs. id just like to point that out.
also yall should have been payig the same percentage of your taxes as they are from the get go. its not fair that rich people get to pay a smaller percentage of their money.

retiredangel
11-09-2008, 03:21 PM
I do agree with you that many who are working less than well paying jobs and that not all choose to be poor that's for sure! It shouldn't be that we have working poor in this country and this current administration has TOTALLY ignored this problem.
I'm talking more about those who chose not to work or to better their situations by determination and labor.I see it all around me where we live,3rd generation welfare Moms and teenagers who have more kids in order to get more government assistance.My ex- housekeeper...gets high all day/night...works Red Cross for cash and "assistance",scams generous church programs,and whatever else she can to get cash for parties.
It is rampant and obvious here in South Texas,trust me.

Recent example:we pay over 500 a month for our private Blue Cross/Shield health insurance with high deductable for mostly serious stuff (husband owned his own biz for 25 years...built it from the ground up...can you say taxes already paid???) and I get a co-pay for my allergy meds but there is also a 2K deductable for that every year to start with.
Little darlin' ahead of me in line last week...maybe 19...3 kids in the cart...talking on her f-ing iphone as she tries to get her state- issued card for FREE prescriptions out of her wallet...has WET NAILS,obviously just had them done and asks the girl at the pharmacy to get to out for her??? Same allergy med I was paying a co-pay for that normally costs @ 125.00 a month (Singulair).She paid nothing for it.

I about went over my cart at her...she was FULL of attitude then she proceeded to chat with her girlfriend about the 3-way she had the night before in front of her kids...how much do you think SHE pays in taxes???

Please.

I have done volunteer work in these arenas and the stories are unbelieveable...it has little to do with "wanting to work" and more to do with laziness both mentally and physically.They feel they are entitled to take,period.

I grew up poor...I have been without food and a place to live in my life and it's no fun and there is no glory in it.
BUT,I also know that if you are determined,you CAN change your circumstances...so many wouldn't even consider taking on a 2nd or 3rd job...Fuck...I used to sleep in my old beater of a car and change uniforms for waitress jobs in store bathrooms so I could get cleaned up and ready for work at my 2nd or 3rd job on time...how many do THAT anymore???
2 jobs? Few would even consider it these days.

As for paying more taxes...girl...you should see what we pay!!! We pay outrageous local school taxes because there are SO many teens with babies at 12-17 that the state deems "must be allowed to finish high school" and we have to provide on site child care for them so they can attend classes,school-sponsored events,and such.Just one example.Birth control? Heaven FORBID,obviously their religious beliefs prevent them from having common sense.
Property taxes rose 35% this year alone on our ranch...again,we're paying for a lot of corrupt politicians and their kickbacks and illegals who are getting "on the system" here very easily.

It's just not that cut and dry and I do blame the "powers that be" for causing this current mess that has resulted in unheard of equalities and problems.

It will be the elderly and children that continue to suffer and that simply sucks.

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 03:36 PM
^^^ Exactly! This may be mandatory for kids in public school, but MOST high schools and many middle schools already require volunteer hours as a condition for graduation. What Obama is proposing is making government tuition help available for university students who are willing to trade their time and help to earn the extra money. And since most driven college students volunteer anyway for grad school or transfer reasons, I think it's an awesome plan.

There's too much scare-mongering going on.

And because this is Member Boards: Narcissus, your name suits you and please stop being a cunt.

You tell me to stop being a cunt when you cannot even take a stand on an issue without contradicting yourself ...

Most middle and high schools are public schools ... and do not require public service for graduation.

This is far greater reaching than just helping kids get college tuition. Even if you don't subscribe to the belief that an invasive government is a bad government, you are still missing 50% of what this social programs demands.


You very obviously do not get it. Racial subjugation goes much further than slavery. Have you studied history? (Since you're being a condescending bitch, I will too.) Jim Crow laws were around until 1965. That's only about 40 years ago, and there are plenty of disillusioned black Americans still around who have felt their sting.

Jim Crow laws = we brought you here against your will, raped your women, tortured you, almost eradicated your native culture, finally freed you, but now we don't want anything to do with you. Essentially, "You, blacks, are not GOOD enough for white America."

Only until quite recently has there been a true shift in racial mentality, especially since younger generations are being exposed to more and more (unfortunately frequently stereotypical) images of blacks in the media, etc.

Any way you want to cut the pie, there is something that still exists and will continue to exist unless blacks are no longer the minority. This is called white privilege. Unavoidable, not necessarily malicious, many times subconscious, white privilege is the fact that I am white and in a world where the majority of people look like me (albeit on a superficial level), I have an advantage. Whether driven by racism or not, humans naturally tend to associate themselves with people that look like them.

If you read any of the threads in hustle hut about mirroring, you'll see a taste of how this works. When I go for a job interview or go apartment-hunting, I subconsciously earn a bit of trust whether I mean to or not. You could say that that would work against me if I wanted to work for an all-black company or live in an all-black apartment complex. However, since I am white, I have so many options with white companies that I don't even have to put myself in that position. By and large, black Americans looking to integrate or move up in the corporate world are forced to put themselves at this disadvantage.

If you try to pull your simplistic "white guilt" accusations on me, my intelligence will be insulted. My heart does sympathize with the past and less frequent/abhorrent current injustices done to the black community, but my head is capable enough to understand the issues that do linger as a result of such inhumanity.

White privilege is the most absurd term ever. It is vapid and carries no weight. Why? Because it is proven that virtually all races, as a people, are more comfortable around their own race.

So because white people hold a majority of the upper echelon of jobs, you fallaciously assume that blacks have a harder time getting those jobs ... because of white privilege. No. Blacks, as a race, have a harder time getting those jobs because, as a race, they have far fewer members that are even eligible. As individuals, that meet educational requirements, they have an increased chance of receiving that job ... often even without meeting work history requirements.

White guilt is so prevalent that I am amazed at how you or anyone else can openly deny it. It happens even here on these forums. And I never said that there were not lingering negatives associated with previous injustices. Not once. I'm sure that there are, but bemoaning equality and how hard it is for 'the black man' to get ahead in this country is a bullshit argument.

When I, as a supposed member of this currently elitist 'white' group, am held at a lower standard by our very own government ... that says wonders. The days of 'the black man' being held down are loooong gone. Black people, due to their race, are offered so many more incentives and 'helping hands' that it is revolting. According to the 'white privilege' theory, I would be the one that has rights and benefits that they don't have. Huh. I suppose in your many 'march for black rights' moments you never noticed that?


^^ never once did i say you were a racist. i said you were ignorant.
besides that, if you think racism is limited to overt racism such as being called the n word, or being turned down for a job, clearly for your race, you are sadly mkistaken.
white people always say oh im not racist, i would never call anyone the n word. yet they clutch their purse in the elevator with a black man. and im not talking a thug type. im talking a black man in a suit and tie, who works in their office.
oh thats just how is was raised!
do some research. know what youre talking about.
am i supposed to feel sorry for you because you were poor? whoop de doo.

like i said read up on the slave mentality. it has nothing to do with having been, or knowing slaves. obviously i was not a slave. duh. thats not why im mad.
it has to do with the mentality that has been passed down through the generations.
do your research before you speak on something you have no idea about.
ex. why do most black people whup their kids, where as most white people has "moved past" that?
because when there were slaves, the only way they had ever discipline was through violence. and sadly if they did not discipline their kids, their master's punishment would be much worse, than a simple whuppin'.
what does that have to do with now?
because of this. i whup my kids because my parents whupped me, and i came out just fine.
i whup my kids because my parents whupped me, and i came out fine,
i whup my kids because my parents whupped me and i came out fine,
i whup my kids because my parents whupped me, and i came out fine......
all the way down the generations to today.
even though it's well documented that whupping causes aggression in children.
now why havent they just stopped?
because most black people are not higher educated. they may have heard on tv once or twice that they shouldnt whup their kids, but it can easily be attributed to "thats something that white people do"
higher educated people are aware of the studies, and know that they could be causing more harm than good to their kids.
most blacks live in areas where everyone they know has grown up being whupped, and they came out "fine".
not realizing they are creating aggresion in their kids that is often the cause of acting up in school, and an underlying cause for violence.
my point is that racism is so much more than overt racism.
you dont have to agree with me, but you should realize there is far more going on, then what one can see as an outsider.
once again, do some research before you respond, so you wont sound stupid. "i cant know whats it's like to be a black man?" HA! no you cant.
you can know whats its like to be poor. two different things.
I think im just about done with you N. your ignorance insults and angers me.
it just reminds me of the discord between people living in the same country.

That is the exact kind of racist banter I expected. Right out of the book of hate, chapter Rev. Wright, page guilt ridden.

I doubt that many white girls are clutching their purses when a well dressed black man gets in an elevator with them whom they work with. I call bullshit. Bull-fucking-shit. Sure, I could understand and even gladly admit that it happens if it was a stereotypical black man ... for damn good reason.

So in your hate mongering mind, you are blaming white people for the scary stereotype that has been conceived in regards to the stereotypical black man. I assume you also prescribe to the school of thought that our 'white government' imports drugs to black neighborhoods to 'keep the black man down' as well?

I love the 'whipping your children' analogy and how it is skewed to demonstrate continued aggression as a generational continuance in the black man by the white people. So even though blacks are given an absurdly large number of 'hand ups' and 'hand outs' to get themselves 'higher education' ... and, as you state, higher educated people learn that beating their children causes aggression ... then it is the white people's fault that black men have a preponderance of whipping their children? ... even though those same black men saw on television that it causes aggression but refuse to listen ... and those whippings, in turn, makes them more likely to be aggressive ... which in turn makes them more likely as young adults to be violent ... which in turn causes such an absurdly large number of black men in prison.

That damn white devil! Look what he is doing to you?!?

Give me a fucking break. By the way, there are numerous studies that show whipping children does not cause aggression in children. It has been found that only when the whipping/spanking is unprovoked, excessive, or emotionally fueled does it cause aggression. The anti-whipping, politically correct movement is a fallacy of people who want to think of themselves as more civilized ...

The discord in this country is because of ignorant people that have a chip on their shoulder and have a need to blame their race's shortcomings on anyone other than their own people. Mix that in with people like Al Sharpton and Rev. Wright who actually make their living off of hate, or the supposed illusion of hate in the (often) absence of it.


QFT

In another thread Narcissus stated any white racism he's seen lacks fervor. I'm sure he's younger than I am, but that's mostly what I remember too.

I remember being a little kid - probably 6 or 7 years old - listening to my mom and aunts sitting around talking about getting some yard work done. "Never hire a colored man for a job and tell him you'll pay him by the hour. They're all lazy, so if you don't pay by the job, he'll be slow as molasses so it takes all day."

No fervor.

Going with a friend, maybe 12, to a gas station. A black man working there said he'd patch a bicycle tire even though we had no money, but he needed to do something with a car tire first. When he was having trouble getting it off the rim, my friend got impatient and helpfully suggested "Damn, why don't you do it like a white man!"

Not much fervor.

Sitting in the back seat of a car as we drove through colored town, we all used to play a game; first one to spot a car with a broken headlight got a point by yelling "One eyed coon".

Just a little fun. No fervor.

Visiting my grandmother in northern Indiana and going downtown with the neighborhood kids to see El Cid. When Sophia Loren appeared on screen for the first time, one of the guys was astute enough to observe - to the entire theater - "Heeeyyy. She looks like a nigger!"

Just an observation, no fervor.

And there's the problem. There wasn't any fervor. None of these people were members of the KKK, just common ordinary middle class folks saying what came naturally...

Maybe none of the types of things I remember ever occur anymore. Maybe next time I take a dump, little leprechauns will grab it and turn it all into a pot of gold...

Have you ever spent time in an all black community/school?

There are racial comments made by whites, but compared to the prevalent black loathing of the white man, those racial slurs carry no weight. None. You want to see hate, move into an all black neighborhood as a white family. Unfortunately, political correctness offers the white family no protection at all.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of people were you around when you were growing up? I've heard racial bigotry before, but never like what you describe ... although it is still nothing compared to the opposing hate.

Narcissus

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 03:38 PM
its not fair that rich people get to pay a smaller percentage of their money.

HAHAHAHA!

What world do you live in? Do you even understand how our tax system works or who pays what percentages? Amazing.

Narcissus

xsomnambulist
11-09-2008, 04:04 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd love to go to this magical land Narcissus keeps writing about, where white v. black racism isn't a problem (for lack of a place where racism isn't a problem, period). I certainly worry about not fitting in, but since he pointed out in another thread that I myself was racist, I guess it really wouldn't be a problem. ::)

Melonie
11-09-2008, 04:13 PM
its not fair that rich people get to pay a smaller percentage of their money.


What world do you live in? Do you even understand how our tax system works or who pays what percentages? Amazing.

Actually, there is a good deal of truth in that observation if one is careful about the definitions. For example, for those Americans that are rich enough to pony up $50k or $100k at a time, there is the option of purchasing relatively high interest paying tax free municipal bonds. This fact allowed John Kerry to only have to pay an actual tax rate of 12% on his $5 million dollars worth of 2004 income ( as released during his presidential campaign ). Similarly, for those with $1 million available to invest, as 'qualified investors' they can hook up with anonymous offshore hedge funds and theoretically pay a 0% actual tax rate on the resulting income. Well at least this will be the case until the IRS can crack Swiss / Lichtenstein / Monaco / Cayman Islands Bank secrecy to discover American account holders and their account balances (an investigation that has made essentially zero progress so far).

Along the same lines, for those with $1 million available to invest, they can be come a 'partner' in a tax favored alternative energy investment ... be it midwest corn farmland ( Late Night NYer David Letterman's favorite tax minimization strategy ), a wind generation farm, a solar energy company etc. All of these are eligible for production tax credits which can then be applied to directly reduce taxes due on more 'conventional' income sources. In fact 5.4 cents of the cost of every gallon of 10% ethanol blend gasoline is directly kicked back to US ethanol producers in the form of a production tax credit.

Despite 'official' published tax rates, the fact that the uber-rich have (and will continue to have) the means available to them to drastically reduce their actual effective tax rate is one of the 'dirty little secrets' of Democratic politics. The fact that the uber-rich are in some cases able to reduce their actual effective tax rate to something that is 1/2 the actual effective tax rate of an 'upper middle class' taxpayer is of course ignored by mainstream media.

Unfortunately, Obama's financial analysts have apparently ignored the real world options that are open to uber-rich Americans as well ! Thus his proposed tax rate hikes on those earning more than $250k per year (or whatever figure prevails this week) will prompt the uber-rich to take actions to shield much of their earnings from the increased tax rates. In the process, the gov't will receive far less in the way of additional tax revenues than Obama's financial analysts have projected. This will then leave Obama with a dilemma ... either to reneg on his promises to increase social welfare spending for the 'poor' (who supported him heavily in last week's election), or to increase tax rates on those earning $150k or $100k or $75k per year (many of whom supported his opponent). I'll leave it to you to perform the probability math !!!

bem401
11-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Since we are on the topic of racism here, I saw where Obama got 97% of the black vote. And people act like the only racism that exists is white on black. I'm not denying white on black racism but it would seem less prevalent than black on white racism. Can you imagine the complaints if 97% of the white vote went for the white guy?

bem401
11-09-2008, 04:19 PM
And as far as taxes are concerned, how do rich people pay less when poor people ( the bottom 40% ) pay 0% in federal taxes?

Melonie
11-09-2008, 04:23 PM
^^^ however, as you indirectly point out, most of the 'civil rights activist' generation has now reached retirement age, and Bull Connor has been dead for years ! You'll definitely want to check out the 'Obama and 'post-racial' America' thread.



how do rich people pay less when poor people ( the bottom 40% ) pay 0% in federal taxes?

This is the other half of the 'dirty little secret' of Democratic politics. When the gov't gives an 'income tax refund' check to people who haven't actually paid income taxes, it's correct name is a 'welfare' check. But if Obama's new 'forced volunteerism' is going to apply to high school students and college students and retirees, it will be extremely curious to see whether it is also applied to those receiving other forms of gov't subsidies !!!

kikidejavu
11-09-2008, 04:29 PM
ok, im apparently im racist too lol
im done. i have wasted far too much time talking to this guy. he's obviously an idiot.
oh well! obama's president! deal with it buddy!!!!!! 8)

xsomnambulist
11-09-2008, 04:45 PM
ok, im apparently im racist too lol
im done. i have wasted far too much time talking to this guy. he's obviously an idiot.
oh well! obama's president! deal with it buddy!!!!!! 8)

Damn, kiki! We're gonna have to make an SW reverse-racist club!

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 05:08 PM
Actually, there is a good deal of truth in that observation if one is careful about the definitions.

Yes and no. While you are correct in demonstrating that many rich Americans are able to shield their money (due to having money ... irony!) it is still a fact that the vast majority of taxes paid are paid by wealthy individuals and wealthy corporations.


As mentioned, I'm assuming I'm [substantially] older than you, so by your time "openness" may have diminished due to both improved awareness ("Political Correctness") and a newfound confidence on the part of some Blacks that they might not get lynched for kicking some ass in response. In fact, as to the movie incident, I was shocked by the initial comment and then doubly shocked as we were leaving to see (for the first time in my life) four muscular young black men sitting two rows behind us in the same theater.

Except for the Indiana visit, which was pretty much a blue collar steel worker area, I grew up in "the better part of town", i.e. mostly middle class professional or white collar with a few single mother waitresses thrown in, in what can fairly be described as the armpit of Florida (no offense to anyone living there, but I'm sure I can get Djoser to back me up...:)).

And you're right, those weren't examples of outright hatred. In fact, we were the local liberals, supporting JFK and LBJ, not Goldwater or the John Birch Society.

But the behavior was commonplace. And I wonder, if I were the guy in the gas station for instance, how many comments like that from snotty white kids would I hear without being able to answer back before I started to hate white people and transmit that hatred to my own kids? This is the age that Rev. Wright also grew up in (though earlier), and I'm not convinced urban centers in the north were much better than our little southern shitholes.

I consider Mississippi and Arkansas (my early years) as quite southern ... both in location and attitude. I saw racism and bigotry ... however it was more often black vs white and had far more hate involved than its opponent.

Regardless, hate is hate and it is sickening. Personally, I'm just fed up with the 'chip on my shoulder' and 'the white man owes me' types of attitudes. By placating those attitudes, we, as a nation, have caused the absurd double standards that are now in place.


ok, im apparently im racist too lol
im done. i have wasted far too much time talking to this guy. he's obviously an idiot.
oh well! obama's president! deal with it buddy!!!!!! 8)

Yes, he is. Thanks to people like you that are supporting him for all the wrong reasons and refusing to see anything other than a 'proud black democratic man'.

Congrats ... you won and I pray that he only fucks this country with his radical views half as much as I think he will. :claps:


Damn, kiki! We're gonna have to make an SW reverse-racist club!

So tell me ... would it be fair, in any fucking situation, for me to make a comment like yours? Maybe a small comment about making a SW white supremacy club? You mock reverse-racism WHILE fucking practicing it. Astute.

Narcissus

Ms. Mia Roberts
11-09-2008, 05:14 PM
i'm gonna say it nice and clear.....THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REVERSE FUCKING RACISM.... THAT TERM MAKES WHITE PEOPLE LOOK STUPID AND EVIL ....AND ITS NOT OKAY FOR BLACKS OR WHITES TO USE IT...... THE TERM DOES NOT EXIST....

xsomnambulist
11-09-2008, 05:16 PM
So tell me ... would it be fair, in any fucking situation, for me to make a comment like yours? Maybe a small comment about making a SW white supremacy club? You mock reverse-racism WHILE fucking practicing it. Astute.


ROFL. I never said anything about an SW black supremacy club, so you're not even making a valid comparison.
It was about an SW reverse-racist club, for posters deemed 'reverse racist' by the mighty Narcissus. Now, I can call you racist, and you and HoolaTwist can go off and make jokes about an SW racist club, in an attempt to mock me, if you'd like. I wouldn't say anything about it (Although I'm sure you'd feel validated by 'OMG THEY ADMITTED IT! THEY ADMITTED IT! THEY'RE RACIST! DAMN WHITE PEOPLE! I KNEW IT!' ...not gonna happen.)

However I don't think you're racist, per se...just...bitter, so don't worry about actually doing it. :P

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 05:23 PM
The term 'reverse-racism' is not a real term ... it is an idea that expresses our cultural preponderance to go so far on a spectrum of 'racism' that we have gone over the deep end on the opposite side generally seen as 'a racist view'. That is why, when you read so many posts here ... you find it is rife with fantastical comments made that, were the races switched', would start a 'hunt down the evil whitey' attack.

Narcissus

Ms. Mia Roberts
11-09-2008, 05:35 PM
The term 'reverse-racism' is not a real term ... it is an idea that expresses our cultural preponderance to go so far on a spectrum of 'racism' that we have gone over the deep end on the opposite side generally seen as 'a racist view'. That is why, when you read so many posts here ... you find it is rife with fantastical comments made that, were the races switched', would start a 'hunt down the evil whitey' attack.

Narcissus


no....you know what reverse racism means?? Its the notion that all racism stems from whites....so when any other race is predjudice against whites... its in reverse.... think about that...think about how that makes you as a white person look when you use that term....

Narcissus
11-09-2008, 05:41 PM
The term 'reverse-racism' is not a real term ... it is an idea that expresses our cultural preponderance to go so far on a spectrum of 'racism' that we have gone over the deep end on the opposite side generally seen as 'a racist view'. That is why, when you read so many posts here ... you find it is rife with fantastical comments made that, were the races switched', would start a 'hunt down the evil whitey' attack.

Narcissus
no....you know what reverse racism means?? Its the notion that all racism stems from whites....so when any other race is predjudice against whites... its in reverse.... think about that...think about how that makes you as a white person look when you use that term....

I disagree. The term, at least how I have heard it and use it, is used to express the outrageous mindset of our society today ... almost exclusively in regards to black vs white racism.

When a white person claims they are being racially discriminated against ... it is laughed off and ignored. Hence the use of 'reverse racism' to describe the completely unfair practice of bigotry being used against whites and it being accepted and politically correct.

That makes me feel pretty fucking good as a lower-class white male that has, since birth, been discriminated against ... to have a term that describes that absolutely ridiculous situation that I am placed in as 'white'.

Narcissus

Ms. Mia Roberts
11-09-2008, 05:47 PM
I disagree. The term, at least how I have heard it and use it, is used to express the outrageous mindset of our society today ... almost exclusively in regards to black vs white racism.

When a white person claims they are being racially discriminated against ... it is laughed off and ignored. Hence the use of 'reverse racism' to describe the completely unfair practice of bigotry being used against whites and it being accepted and politically correct.

That makes me feel pretty fucking good as a lower-class white male that has, since birth, been discriminated against ... to have a term that describes that absolutely ridiculous situation that I am placed in as 'white'.

Narcissus

no, thats not what reverse racism means...infact, that meaning makes no sense.... even tho i'm sure you would like that to be the meaning.

It means what i just explained to you...and thats how it is used not just by whites...but by blacks as well....