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Narcissus
11-12-2008, 11:25 PM
I do appreciate your honesty. Now, I won't call you a bigot -- it seems to me that you're either resistant or jaded. Regardless, I think that reasonable doubt is healthy, so I'm in no way upset or offended, or anything. I have reasonable doubt about a lot of things said on this forum, on the Member's Board or otherwise.

With that out of the way, I have to use your own point: perhaps it is your own point of view that prevented you from seeing what a black person called bigotry or racism as such. Just as you stated that if you look for something to be there in a situation, you will find it, if you expect for something to not be there, you will either not find it, or the severity of what you do find will be almost negligible.

I think that we all give a pass to our own, in some senses. Its been accused many times on these related threads that blacks accuse whites, and dismiss blacks. Maybe you're dismissing whites and accusing blacks, because it is, for whatever reason, what you expect and believe to be true.
No one sees with an objective eye, and with all due respect, you are no different.

And of course you could say the opposite! There are people like that in all races! The point is that the same people who were doing these things to me were saying very offensive things on tape. Just because you can say the same thing about black people doesn't make it any better that it was said in the first place. And I'm brought back to the initial point: you've already assumed that you will find less of this behavior in whites and more in blacks, so ... what do you think you'll see? What do you think you'll dismiss? How will you determine the fervor? What will stick in your mind and what will not? No one is immune to this line of reasoning, especially on a topic so subjective.

Finally! Someone willing to debate!

You make a fantastic counter-point about perception. I could be perceiving things to be non-bigoted because that is what I am looking for. I contend, however, that the chances of my looking for something to not be bigoted is much smaller (exponentially so) than the chances for you to be looking for something to be bigotry based.

My reasoning behind that is simple:
The average black person (I'm not stereotyping you, you may be different) is told from an early age about racism, bigotry, bias, slavery, etc. The value of freedom from slavery, the oppression of bigotry, and the hate of racism is greatly emphasized, both in school and at home. It is emphasized at home while watching t.v., in the car while listening to the majority of popular music, at the movie theater while watching many of today's mainstream movies, at school while learning black history, etc.

The effect of these same things on the average white person is systemically lessened due to a great number of things. Suffice it to say that to the average white person growing up in today's society, it carries the same level of interest and awareness as virtually any other historical information.

Now, that isn't my way of saying that every black child is indoctrinated into a mindset of hate and resentfulness or that every white child is taught indifference. What I am saying is that the impressions left by anything relating to these ideals is far more significant to a black child. That child will then have a propensity to watch for, gaurd against, and identify bigotry biased against blacks. Alternatively, the white child is much less likely to be actively looking for these indications or the absence of them.

Hence, my reasoning that the likelihood of you seeing what isn't there is much higher than the likelihood of my not seeing what is. Now, again, that isn't to say that no racism or bigotry exists against black people. That isn't my contention at all.


it is statistically and factually provable that poor blacks in america receive no benefit from being poor and black compared to poor whites in america. it is better to be white in america, regardless of income level, in terms of 'benefitting'.

Ok then, show me statistically how poor blacks in America receive no benefit from being poor and black compared to poor whites in America. I was going to start listing the many, many programs that whites are not eligible for and all of that ... but if you have factual, statistical proof then I'll not waste my time gathering such a huge list.

Narcissus

xsomnambulist
11-13-2008, 02:03 AM
Finally! Someone willing to debate!

You make a fantastic counter-point about perception. I could be perceiving things to be non-bigoted because that is what I am looking for. I contend, however, that the chances of my looking for something to not be bigoted is much smaller (exponentially so) than the chances for you to be looking for something to be bigotry based.

My reasoning behind that is simple:
The average black person (I'm not stereotyping you, you may be different) is told from an early age about racism, bigotry, bias, slavery, etc. The value of freedom from slavery, the oppression of bigotry, and the hate of racism is greatly emphasized, both in school and at home. It is emphasized at home while watching t.v., in the car while listening to the majority of popular music, at the movie theater while watching many of today's mainstream movies, at school while learning black history, etc.

The effect of these same things on the average white person is systemically lessened due to a great number of things. Suffice it to say that to the average white person growing up in today's society, it carries the same level of interest and awareness as virtually any other historical information.

Now, that isn't my way of saying that every black child is indoctrinated into a mindset of hate and resentfulness or that every white child is taught indifference. What I am saying is that the impressions left by anything relating to these ideals is far more significant to a black child. That child will then have a propensity to watch for, gaurd against, and identify bigotry biased against blacks. Alternatively, the white child is much less likely to be actively looking for these indications or the absence of them.

Hence, my reasoning that the likelihood of you seeing what isn't there is much higher than the likelihood of my not seeing what is. Now, again, that isn't to say that no racism or bigotry exists against black people. That isn't my contention at all.


You have good points, however, it seems to assume that white kids are beyond the influence of, well, everything.

In school, who's to say how the teachings of racism and inequality will impact a student on either side of the debate? A black student may become resentful toward black people because of these, just as a white student may become defensive because of what a black student may be thinking. They may feel guilty, and attempt to alleviate that guilt by trying to kid themselves into thinking that racism just...isn't there anymore, or isn't a factor in anything. I personally know I'd be one defensive ass white person, but that's just me. Its a tense subject in school, it really is, so I don't know if I can even agree that the majority just treat it as just another point in history, but that might be beside the point. I might add that in my 8th grade history class, a girl goes "We let them go! What more did they want from us?!"

Not only that, but our socialization with other children shape us as well. Just because your parents taught something doesn't mean that your friends' parents taught them that same thing. Growing up, I didn't see race. I had a large white lineage, I had large black lineage -- I had people who loved me. I learned about slavery, the importance of freedom, all that good stuff, but I felt no resentment toward anyone for anything, nor did I expect to be slighted. I went to an all-white school, and wasn't your stereotypical angry black girl. At that school, I distinctly remember an occasion where a boy came up to me and said that Nelson Mandela shouldn't be president of South Africa and that he learned from his mother that black people shouldn't be allowed in such high positions of power. Bigotry? Racism? Seems that kid learned quite a bit in his home. It helped to shape my worldview and the way I saw race, even though its not something my parents taught me. Who's to say that a white child's socialization won't have an impact on them and how they view claims of racism, or even the existence thereof? They're not more socially evolved than black children.

And what one learns in childhood does not automatically and completely translate into what they see and apply as adults. Experiences throughout our life shape how we feel in the present. You'll base your view and arguments on your experience of supposedly not seeing fervor in the racism of blacks, in not seeing merit in black accusations of racism, and that's a large part of how you'll make your conclusions. Instead of saying "I don't know the situation," and leaving it at that, it was "I don't know the situation, but experience-based inference here]." But I can easily say that if you had the experiences with race that I've had as an adult, your attitude might be completely different.

With all of this "post-racial" talk (SHOUT OUT TO MELONIE! ROFL), people -- grown ass people -- may be looking rationalize all white on black bigotry, dismissing it as whatever they feel fits the situation. After being accused of racism to a degree that one feels is unnecessary, one might choose to rationalize actions, as an adult.

I know nothing of what you were taught outright or indirectly, of your socialization, or any of your experiences, but reading some of your posts, most strikingly the one in this back and forth we had, it was almost as though you were looking for something that wasn't there (that statement sounds more pointed than I meant for it to be. Sorry.):


Damn, kiki! We're gonna have to make an SW reverse-racist club!



So tell me ... would it be fair, in any fucking situation, for me to make a comment like yours? Maybe a small comment about making a SW white supremacy club? You mock reverse-racism WHILE fucking practicing it.


ROFL. I never said anything about an SW black supremacy club, so you're not even making a valid comparison.
It was about an SW reverse-racist club, for posters deemed 'reverse racist' by the mighty Narcissus. Now, I can call you racist, and you and HoolaTwist can go off and make jokes about an SW racist club, in an attempt to mock me, if you'd like. I wouldn't say anything about it (Although I'm sure you'd feel validated by 'OMG THEY ADMITTED IT! THEY ADMITTED IT! THEY'RE RACIST! DAMN WHITE PEOPLE! I KNEW IT!' ...not gonna happen.)


...and if you can look for something to be there, you can also look for something not to be there.

As I previously stated, I believe that when the going gets tough, we all look out for our own and try to rationalize their actions (or inactions). I don't know if this is the case with you -- I don't know you from a can of paint, so I'm not even going to go there -- but I do know that for some, of all races, this is true. Whether or not you're in that 'some' is beyond me, admittedly, but it is a possibility.

miabella
11-13-2008, 03:55 AM
Finally! Someone willing to debate!

You make a fantastic counter-point about perception. I could be perceiving things to be non-bigoted because that is what I am looking for. I contend, however, that the chances of my looking for something to not be bigoted is much smaller (exponentially so) than the chances for you to be looking for something to be bigotry based.

My reasoning behind that is simple:
The average black person (I'm not stereotyping you, you may be different) is told from an early age about racism, bigotry, bias, slavery, etc. The value of freedom from slavery, the oppression of bigotry, and the hate of racism is greatly emphasized, both in school and at home. It is emphasized at home while watching t.v., in the car while listening to the majority of popular music, at the movie theater while watching many of today's mainstream movies, at school while learning black history, etc.

The effect of these same things on the average white person is systemically lessened due to a great number of things. Suffice it to say that to the average white person growing up in today's society, it carries the same level of interest and awareness as virtually any other historical information.

Now, that isn't my way of saying that every black child is indoctrinated into a mindset of hate and resentfulness or that every white child is taught indifference. What I am saying is that the impressions left by anything relating to these ideals is far more significant to a black child. That child will then have a propensity to watch for, gaurd against, and identify bigotry biased against blacks. Alternatively, the white child is much less likely to be actively looking for these indications or the absence of them.

Hence, my reasoning that the likelihood of you seeing what isn't there is much higher than the likelihood of my not seeing what is. Now, again, that isn't to say that no racism or bigotry exists against black people. That isn't my contention at all.



Ok then, show me statistically how poor blacks in America receive no benefit from being poor and black compared to poor whites in America. I was going to start listing the many, many programs that whites are not eligible for and all of that ... but if you have factual, statistical proof then I'll not waste my time gathering such a huge list.

Narcissus


oh no, gather your list. i want to go on that magical mystery tour.

PS: whites are eligible for 99.75% of all private and public college scholarship money. the 'minorities-only' portion of that money is less than one percent of all available monies. just one example. but first, let's go on your magical mystery tour of all the benefits black people get, so many that they die decades younger than even comparable whites-- must be overload of excitement from all those benefits, clearly.

Melonie
11-13-2008, 04:45 AM
With all of this "post-racial" talk (SHOUT OUT TO MELONIE! ROFL), people -- grown ass people -- may be looking rationalize all white on black bigotry, dismissing it as whatever they feel fits the situation. After being accused of racism to a degree that one feels is unnecessary, one might choose to rationalize actions, as an adult.

I agree with this assessment as being the underlying reason for the 'post-racial' discussions now appearing in various media. Resorting to bare facts, a significant percentage of people who choose to vote for one candidate versus another candidate do so in expectation of personally benefitting from that candidate's policies and/or promised actions.

One of Barack Obama's policies, as stated in his book and in various campaign outlets, is to treat ALL Americans more equally. Given that more than twice as many white Americans voted for Barack than black Americans, it is only logical to assume that at least some of those white American Barack voters now have expectations that Barack will follow through, ushering in 'post-racial' America.

Somewhat aside, I really don't envy the position that Barack is being forced into in regard to democrat / liberal supporter groups now vying against other democrat / liberal supporter groups. We've already got unhappy gay rights advocates in California. We'll soon have unhappy union workers in Michigan. Barack's 'post-racial' America sets up a situation where 'guilty white liberal' Barack supporters are going to wind up being unhappy if 'post-racial' America doesn't materialize.

Miss_Luscious
11-13-2008, 07:55 AM
Finally! Someone willing to debate!



I've been trying to debate as well. In fact, I posted a very well thought out few paragraphs complete with links and everything that was subsequently ignored in favor of responding to the more incendiary posts.

Debate is better than angry argument any day and before all the extra angry posting started, most of the posts here in Member Boards were civil debate with factual arguments. We clearly disagreed but I don't think anyone was taking things personally.

Narcissus
11-13-2008, 10:54 AM
I'm afraid you misinterpreted what I said. I wasn't saying that white children are beyond being influenced by things. I also didn't state anything implying that white kids were more socially evolved. I was attempting to get across the fact that most white kids are far less influenced by race themed subjects because it isn't central to their lives. It affects them to a much smaller degree and, from my experience, isn't a part of their lives beyond school except on fairly rare occasions. Sure, they are still conditioned by the things around them ... but that conditioning is secondary to virtually everything else. Do they still get preconceived notions of 'the black man'? I'm sure they do to an extent, however I think it is a lot more understated than given credit for ... and easily corrected by life experience.

For black kids, those issues are not secondary in any way. At least not in the Arkansas, Mississippi, Louisiana areas they aren't. Racial differences are readily made apparent at virtually every opportunity. It is emphasized that they will be discriminated against by whites. They are told that they have to work harder to succeed (than whites). I would go as far as say that bigotry and how it will be used against them is a core teaching in a black kid's life.

So you won't think that I'm pulling these statements out of thin air, I'll give you a quick glance at my childhood: I spent the vast majority of my youth going to several different predominantly black schools. My experiences after that: I started attending a private school (church school) predominantly white. Then back to public school ...

I had the chance to see things from both perspectives ... I saw the way the kids (black) acted and reacted to me as one of the only white kids around, and I heard them talk when they thought I wasn't around. I also saw the reversed situation with almost all white kids and only a handful of blacks. The differences in what (in a racial context) was said and how they interacted with each other was astronomical.

A good example of the differences that I witnessed was the emphasis between black history taught in a black school and black history taught in a white school. The difference was like night and day. At the white school, black history was taught like any other history lesson. The lessons at the black schools were hardcore comparatively. To get a better understanding of the difference ... think of a soft porn T and A movie, then compare that to a hardcore porno. Yes, they taught the same general ideas, but one was a brief overview that touched on a few specific areas whereas the other was a graphic depiction of slavery, racism, and oppression at the white hands of slave owners.

Now I do have to admit that my predominately white school experience is pretty limited. The only 'white school' that I spent more than a single school year at was a private church school. I know that my situation and experience on that end is somewhat lacking ... I can't make a 100% 'this is fact' comparison as kid's behavior at a church school will differ by its own merits. Regardless, I still have my experiences after school to base against my previous experiences ... so I still think my view is well rounded.

So I say again: My reasoning that the likelihood of you seeing what isn't there is much higher than the likelihood of my not seeing what is. I can't stress enough that I am not saying there is no racism or bigotry existing against black people. I'm simply saying that I firmly believe a good portion of the bigotry and racism is assumed and perceived.

In regards to the comment about the girl hiding under her kitchen table or the boy claiming Nelson Mandela shouldn't be in power because of skin color ... all I can say is that those views were established with intent. Those beliefs did not come from television/radio ... that was directly learned 'white vs black' bigotry, which I've never denied existed. My contention is that while it does still happen, it is, in my experience, less than the bigotry and racism directed towards white by blacks.

As far as 'post-racial' talks go, while I understand the point that Melonie is trying to convey, I think we all know better. Obama is unlikely to be fair and treat all Americans the same as all other Americans. It would be a fantastic thing, but any reasonable expectation of him doing so is, unfortunately, an illusion. True equality is still going to be taking a back seat to the politically correct version of equality we have now. Sad, but true.


oh no, gather your list. i want to go on that magical mystery tour.

PS: whites are eligible for 99.75% of all private and public college scholarship money. the 'minorities-only' portion of that money is less than one percent of all available monies. just one example. but first, let's go on your magical mystery tour of all the benefits black people get, so many that they die decades younger than even comparable whites-- must be overload of excitement from all those benefits, clearly.

No, no! I asked first ... so you show me yours and I'll show you mine. :D


I've been trying to debate as well. In fact, I posted a very well thought out few paragraphs complete with links and everything that was subsequently ignored in favor of responding to the more incendiary posts.

Debate is better than angry argument any day and before all the extra angry posting started, most of the posts here in Member Boards were civil debate with factual arguments. We clearly disagreed but I don't think anyone was taking things personally.

I don't want to offend you, but your intended goal and what you have posted seem to diverge. I've made mistakes and lost my temper, etc ... so I'm not 'pointing my finger' as much as pointing out what I've seen. I don't recall you attempting to debate anything off-hand, although I do seem to recall you making several attacks on people's views and then posting several links to 'white blaming' websites that claim virtually every woe in the black communities is the 'white man's fault' and expressing the terrible injustices that happen to black people. I think there were three sites and after reading some of the first two, I just skimmed the third out of disgust. I'm not 100% positive, but that is what I remember.

If that wasn't you or my memory is incorrect, I apologize as I'm running out of time and don't have the opportunity to check. If that wasn't you then disregard these comments as they don't pertain to you.

The only link/argument that you gave in this thread was linking to a wiki article about white privilege. I considered whipping up a wiki to refute you, but figured it would serve no purpose and let it go.

Narcissus

Miss_Luscious
11-13-2008, 11:11 AM
I do seem to recall you making several attacks on people's views and then posting several links to 'white blaming' websites that claim virtually every woe in the black communities is the 'white man's fault' and expressing the terrible injustices that happen to black people.

Narcissus

Yes you are mistaken. I have never done that. I have never ever said that every problem that blacks face is the fault of whites. In fact, I've posted the opposite opinion. I am one of the biggest critics of black people when they fuck up or when they refuse to help themselves. I only posted what the DEFINITION of White Privilege was because there seemed to be some confusion on the term. The link I posted was just to further the understanding of the definition of White Privilege. They aren't my definitions and those aren't my words. I never posted any other links.

I also explained how it's not something that whites do on purpose with the intent to harm or exclude blacks but rather that it's human nature and it would be no different if blacks and whites were in reversed positions.

dlabtot
11-13-2008, 12:38 PM
Often, when someone says "with all due respect", what it really means is, "you are not due any respect".

Similarly with those who state that they are "not trying to stir up trouble".

Miss_Luscious
11-13-2008, 12:53 PM
Often, when someone says "with all due respect", what it really means is, "you are not due any respect".

Similarly with those who state that they are "not trying to stir up trouble".

Yep. See also "I'm not a racist/against gays/woman hater, etc. BUT..."

The same goes for ending a sentence with "...not that there's anything WRONG with that."

Douchbaggery can't be hidden behind those terms! Man up and be honest about your intentions! "I want to start trouble so I'm going to post...."

Narcissus
11-13-2008, 02:41 PM
What happened to my post? WTF?

EDIT: I'll not try and re-write my entire post, but one part that I felt needed re-posting: I apologized to Miss_Luscious for getting her mixed up with a different poster.

Narcissus