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UV69
11-25-2008, 02:54 PM
UV69, the thing you seem to be missing is pretty big: most trans people self-identify as the opposite sex without anyone DIAGNOSING them or "telling them they're in the wrong body". Many live for decades feeling like they don't belong in their own skin. This isn't a case of docs running amok, telling people they need to change their bodies. This is a case of individuals making a physical change so they can feel like their outside matches their inside.

No a world that is unaccepting of those that don't match gendercodes plays no roles it a self hating body image with impossible ideals and unrealiistic self concept---and what world do you live in where from the moment you are born you are not told male="this" and female="that". Blue is for boys =right and trucks for girls =wronge.

Please this isn't much different then those people who strave themselves and are willing to do anything to look a certin aproved way. I bet in the jungle no1 cuts off thier own dick or chops off thier own tits and they don't suffer horrible lives and deaths of feeling trapped by thier bodies. This whole disease is culturely baised and in noway exist in nature.

The so called cure in transition does not provide a sex change which is considered the ideal for those cursed with mismatched gender(which is infact a physically healthy and whole person who has been conveinced they are not) , but it pumps them full or unnatural hormones that shorten thier lives and then they take perfectly healthy sexaul organs and cut them off or reconstruct them into something else that serves very sexual purpose and no reproductive fuction.

Seem to me like genacide to gender freaks more then a cure. However if you fill some1 with enough sexist bullshit and make them hate themselves for what they are changes are they will jump to get rid of this disease that cost them this great idealist normal life.

Hilter had people killing other people out of this type of hate. There was eye color testing using bleach to try to transform mankind into his version of the superior race. This is not much different in nature only becuz it's gender not race and self infected it's just masked under the name of a cure, but it's still the same population control of those deemed diseased for simply being born different and a minority trying to transform them to fit what the image is normal and right.

Sounds to me like society has a disease and what is wronge is gender thoery of right and wronge bodies--not a person who is born masculine in a female body or some1 who is feminine in a male body trying to live in this world.

While 70,000 is being spent to transform a whole person by cutting them to make them feel whole (how ironically not funny) by making what is male look female and vic verse--what message are we sending to teach others about self love and acceptance for who they are becuz I don't get that from it. What I see is years of abuse and oppression having people line up to hide themselves behind DR frankistens new and improved gender passing and approved creation.

Golden_Rule
11-25-2008, 03:36 PM
...but don't devote yr life to trying to fool me becuz you won't.


Devote my life? Fool you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just didn't understand that I was REPORTING on a bit of information I had read and not giving a personal opinion.

Golden_Rule
11-25-2008, 04:26 PM
Could you please post them here? I think this thread is becoming really educational and interesting.


The female/male brain bothers me a bit. Does that mean showing patterns normally associated with female/male brains? I find it hard to believe that our brains don't have an "in-between" stage to them.


Thank you for this. I had this thought as well.

I only report on the article, whose source I have forgotten [either Journal of American Medicine or Scientific American if memory serves, and it probably doesn't] which itself stated this was very early stage research.

There has been a rather dramatic shift in the medical community away from thinking of transgendered issues as a psychological disorder to that of being a physiological one.


Here are a few articles along those lines:

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

http://www.gires.org.uk/etiology.php

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/ijtc0106.htm

And an even more recent study which suggests that, at least in male to female transgender issue there is a genetic component:

http://www.popsci.com.au/scitech/article/2008-11/discovery-transsexual-gene-raises-more-questions-answers?page=1

Like I said, my interest is general science so while I understand most of the terminology I won't pretend that some of the deeper scientific data [which would require a more in depth knowledge of bio-chemistry for one thing] isn't over my head.

Otoki
11-27-2008, 11:53 PM
^^Thank you, GR

Otoki
11-28-2008, 12:08 AM
No a world that is unaccepting of those that don't match gendercodes plays no roles it a self hating body image with impossible ideals and unrealiistic self concept---and what world do you live in where from the moment you are born you are not told male="this" and female="that". Blue is for boys =right and trucks for girls =wronge.
Wait, so you're taking issue with the fact that certain individuals feel they are mentally X, and want to change their bodies to be so? Because that's a type of gender-bending, although I supposed I can see how it could be taken as a reinforcement of gender-roles. HOWEVER, I don't see how confining gender roles are effecting individuals who feel they should be biologically of the opposite sex.


Please this isn't much different then those people who strave themselves and are willing to do anything to look a certin aproved way. I bet in the jungle no1 cuts off thier own dick or chops off thier own tits and they don't suffer horrible lives and deaths of feeling trapped by thier bodies. This whole disease is culturely baised and in noway exist in nature.
Really? You feel that being trans is the same as a mental disease in which people are unhappy with their body image and STARVE THEMSELVES? You're awesome.

Oh, and "in the jungle"? WTF are you talking about? Some magical "primitive land" where people aren't held down by cultural expectations brought on by "civilization"? Should we talk about teenage circumcisions and what they indicate in terms of "cultural pressure" to be "masculine" or "feminine"? How about Thailand, where the culture is much more accepting of trans people?


The so called cure in transition does not provide a sex change which is considered the ideal for those cursed with mismatched gender(which is infact a physically healthy and whole person who has been conveinced they are not) , but it pumps them full or unnatural hormones that shorten thier lives and then they take perfectly healthy sexaul organs and cut them off or reconstruct them into something else that serves very sexual purpose and no reproductive fuction.
OK, you realize that the psych community has tried to "convince" people that they're just confused about their gender, right? It doesn't work. It's like "curing" people of being gay. That's how their brains work, and telling/forcing them to believe otherwise is only going to traumatize them more. Do you really not see the similarity between "curing homosexuality" and "curing gender confusion"?


Seem to me like genacide to gender freaks more then a cure. However if you fill some1 with enough sexist bullshit and make them hate themselves for what they are changes are they will jump to get rid of this disease that cost them this great idealist normal life.
Epic fail.


Hilter had people killing other people out of this type of hate. There was eye color testing using bleach to try to transform mankind into his version of the superior race. This is not much different in nature only becuz it's gender not race and self infected it's just masked under the name of a cure, but it's still the same population control of those deemed diseased for simply being born different and a minority trying to transform them to fit what the image is normal and right.
So, you're comparing trans people seeking out sex-change surgery to people who were forced to be scientific guinea pigs in concentration camps.

I'm amazed. Please, keep running with this awesome logical train of thought.


Sounds to me like society has a disease and what is wronge is gender thoery of right and wronge bodies--not a person who is born masculine in a female body or some1 who is feminine in a male body trying to live in this world.
No one, including trans people, are saying gender norms are "right", or that gender-bending is "wrong". What they ARE saying is that changing their physical sex to match their mental sex is something that makes them happy, and I don't see why you think that makes them "diseased".


While 70,000 is being spent to transform a whole person by cutting them to make them feel whole (how ironically not funny) by making what is male look female and vic verse--what message are we sending to teach others about self love and acceptance for who they are becuz I don't get that from it. What I see is years of abuse and oppression having people line up to hide themselves behind DR frankistens new and improved gender passing and approved creation.
Aaaand this is where you go go off on an unintelligible rant while implying that, once again, there is something wrong with someone who feels that gender-reassignment surgery will make them the happy, whole person that they want to be.

Quick question: are you also against all body mods in general? Tattoos? BAs? BRs? I'm really interested in knowing how many people you judge as "confused" and "delusional" for wanting to change their outsides to match their insides.

hl1986
11-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Who touched me?

Why, the same as who touched you!

About 20 men a night.

:rotfl: Love it!

UV69
11-29-2008, 11:52 AM
Wait, so you're taking issue with the fact that certain individuals feel they are mentally X, and want to change their bodies to be so? Because that's a type of gender-bending, although I supposed I can see how it could be taken as a reinforcement of gender-roles. HOWEVER, I don't see how confining gender roles are effecting individuals who feel they should be biologically of the opposite sex.
It's not gender bending to comform to your idenity to being a person of the opposite sex born in the wronge body. That's being a gender sell out. Just like if I was a punk rocker who started playing pop and said punk was for untalented artist who didn't know who to make music.


Really? You feel that being trans is the same as a mental disease in which people are unhappy with their body image and STARVE THEMSELVES? You're awesome.
Yes that is what body delusion is about?? An unhealth opbession with changing your body to fit an image that you have of yourself that is not reflected in the mirror.

Oh, and "in the jungle"? WTF are you talking about? Some magical "primitive land" where people aren't held down by cultural expectations brought on by "civilization"? Should we talk about teenage circumcisions and what they indicate in terms of "cultural pressure" to be "masculine" or "feminine"? How about Thailand, where the culture is much more accepting of trans people?
Thailand is not a jungle obviuous what are u getting at? I'm talking about the facts that it is soceity that has created this wronge gender thoery and that if you lived before this science of cutting people open to fix thier gender BS no1 would think of to do it.

OK, you realize that the psych community has tried to "convince" people that they're just confused about their gender, right? It doesn't work. It's like "curing" people of being gay. That's how their brains work, and telling/forcing them to believe otherwise is only going to traumatize them more. Do you really not see the similarity between "curing homosexuality" and "curing gender confusion"?

I understand this which is why I'm against the curing of gender variants by transtioning which is you making my point right there.
Drs can't cure gays and surgery doesn't cure people who do not fit the apporiate gender roles. They don't become the right sex becuz of surgery they become a man made version of what sex should be at teh expense of what they natural were.

Epic fail.


So, you're comparing trans people seeking out sex-change surgery to people who were forced to be scientific guinea pigs in concentration camps.

No I'm comparing what 1 group of people did to another to the mentallity behind fixing people to match an ideal of how people should be=not a gread freak in this case.

I'm amazed. Please, keep running with this awesome logical train of thought.


No one, including trans people, are saying gender norms are "right", or that gender-bending is "wrong". What they ARE saying is that changing their physical sex to match their mental sex is something that makes them happy, and I don't see why you think that makes them "diseased".

I never said they were diseased don't put words in my mouth. I said that the only thing wronge with thier mental sex is that they believe in such a thing as they have to be something they are not to match.

Aaaand this is where you go go off on an unintelligible rant while implying that, once again, there is something wrong with someone who feels that gender-reassignment surgery will make them the happy, whole person that they want to be.

Quick question: are you also against all body mods in general? Tattoos? BAs? BRs? I'm really interested in knowing how many people you judge as "confused" and "delusional" for wanting to change their outsides to match their insides.


I'm not against body bods of any kind inculding transitioning or selfstraving it's some1 elses body not mine do whatever they want with it more power to you is how I see it--but tattoos, BA's don't make any1 a whole person and the belief that some1 needs to alter thier body to become healthy at the expense of thier own health is delusional becuz it is doing the opposite. Like cutting yourself to make yourself whole.

My tatts don't make or break who i am.

Venus Doom
11-29-2008, 12:23 PM
I'm post-op trans and absolutely <3 dancers! (Several of 'em befriended me on MySpace.)

When I went to a local club, this cute, petite, topless hispanic grl (she looked underage!) was sooo thrilled to meet me in the restroom, she knew me from my local cable TV show, we chatted for 15 minutes.
http://www.myspace.com/666ismoney

As 4 the OP: Before my surgery I resented women because I thought they had all the fun. After the surgery, I've never been happier, smiling all the time! :) :) :)

(Went to Thailand about 6 years ago, cost about $8000 for silicone boobs too.)

Grlz rule!

Some pics of some of my young GF's & TS friends:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/666_is_money/sets/72157609880933796/

davka
12-16-2008, 09:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdEKrzcUd9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxq6IgkYA50

Otoki
12-16-2008, 11:06 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdEKrzcUd9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxq6IgkYA50
My boyfriend and I were cracking up watching those videos. She's hilarious!

JoyJoy
12-17-2008, 05:44 AM
Oh wow.
Im sure you are all intelligent and limportant members of society.. but using the words 'transgendered', 'transsexual' and 'transvestite' nterchangeably is like using the words 'hooker', 'slut' and 'stripper' interchangeably.

Also, hating on transsexuals because of what one transsexual said is the same as calling all strippers SLUTS because one sucks **** for money.

Now ladies, lesson one is to learn the difference between the different words i said earlier, the second is to not judge every person of a group by actions made by a single member.

btw i', not a trans-anything, just someone who hates ignorance.
SDMB anyone?



Edited to add : Im just subscribing to this thread..

Fenriswolf
12-17-2008, 06:05 AM
JoyJoy, can you see that saying


Now ladies, lesson one is to learn the difference between the different words i said earlier, the second is to not judge every person of a group by actions made by a single member.

might be reeeeeally patronising, especially given you're not exactly the first person to point this out (or rather you are for the transgender/-sexual/-vestite thing but not for the discrimination thing)?

UV69, it makes me sad that you see transpeople that way. I see where you're coming from wrt gender roles but I don't agree - and even if you were right, disclaimers about not thinking it's OK to hurt someone for being transgendered doesn't change the fact that an attitude of disgust toward trans people contributes to an atmosphere where violence against transpeople is tacitly accepted.

Now I am a woman, and I have spent a fair amount of time wishing I was a man. I am strong, and fast. I like full-contact sports, full-contact martial arts, I'm interested in engines and fast bikes and like to be blunt where I can and hate playing games. I don't believe associate sex with love and have difficulty with monogamy.

After a long long time of being miserable in my body I'm slowly coming to terms with it. I am a cis-woman who only really wants to be a man because I fit the mould of "masculine" so well, am more comfortable there, and it kills me that my genetics make me as strong as an average man but with a Y chromosome I wouldn't just be "strong for a woman".

I know in myself I am cisgendered, and just don't fit the mould. Because I've spent so long turning my sexuality (nominally bisexual, mostly straight) and gender over and over in my head until I thought I understood me, I can completely understand that to be transgendered is different to how I feel. I feel like a woman who likes masculine things. A FTM transexual feels like a man trapped in a woman's body.

Feminism to me is woman-focussed, but it encompasses all people and their right to decide what is best for them in their life and I respect people of all genders in knowing what is right for them, as in my opinion should all feminists (obviously the exception being where it harms others). MTF women are women, not men, and like people of all genders can be wonderful people or not so wonderful people. That does not call their gender into question.

[/ramble] :P

davka
12-17-2008, 02:07 PM
JoyJoy, can you see that saying



might be reeeeeally patronising, especially given you're not exactly the first person to point this out (or rather you are for the transgender/-sexual/-vestite thing but not for the discrimination thing)?



yeah totally, glad Joy showed up and told us how it is. Lol. If she would have read the thread she would have seen that all of her points have touched upon by us ignorant "ladies" already.

anyway, jackie beat is so amazing.

pixierocksonthepole
12-17-2008, 06:45 PM
^ Uh, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has NEVER used the baby voice. EVER.

Ditto

Otoki
12-18-2008, 02:14 AM
Oh wow.
Im sure you are all intelligent and limportant members of society.. but using the words 'transgendered', 'transsexual' and 'transvestite' nterchangeably is like using the words 'hooker', 'slut' and 'stripper' interchangeably.

Also, hating on transsexuals because of what one transsexual said is the same as calling all strippers SLUTS because one sucks **** for money.

Now ladies, lesson one is to learn the difference between the different words i said earlier, the second is to not judge every person of a group by actions made by a single member.

btw i', not a trans-anything, just someone who hates ignorance.
SDMB anyone?



Edited to add : Im just subscribing to this thread..
Internet posting tip:
Read the entire thread before posting something like this, because otherwise it's redundant. I made this mistake many times before I realized that it took away the effectiveness of my posts.

Otoki
12-18-2008, 02:15 AM
JoyJoy, can you see that saying



might be reeeeeally patronising, especially given you're not exactly the first person to point this out (or rather you are for the transgender/-sexual/-vestite thing but not for the discrimination thing)?

UV69, it makes me sad that you see transpeople that way. I see where you're coming from wrt gender roles but I don't agree - and even if you were right, disclaimers about not thinking it's OK to hurt someone for being transgendered doesn't change the fact that an attitude of disgust toward trans people contributes to an atmosphere where violence against transpeople is tacitly accepted.

Now I am a woman, and I have spent a fair amount of time wishing I was a man. I am strong, and fast. I like full-contact sports, full-contact martial arts, I'm interested in engines and fast bikes and like to be blunt where I can and hate playing games. I don't believe associate sex with love and have difficulty with monogamy.

After a long long time of being miserable in my body I'm slowly coming to terms with it. I am a cis-woman who only really wants to be a man because I fit the mould of "masculine" so well, am more comfortable there, and it kills me that my genetics make me as strong as an average man but with a Y chromosome I wouldn't just be "strong for a woman".

I know in myself I am cisgendered, and just don't fit the mould. Because I've spent so long turning my sexuality (nominally bisexual, mostly straight) and gender over and over in my head until I thought I understood me, I can completely understand that to be transgendered is different to how I feel. I feel like a woman who likes masculine things. A FTM transexual feels like a man trapped in a woman's body.

Feminism to me is woman-focussed, but it encompasses all people and their right to decide what is best for them in their life and I respect people of all genders in knowing what is right for them, as in my opinion should all feminists (obviously the exception being where it harms others). MTF women are women, not men, and like people of all genders can be wonderful people or not so wonderful people. That does not call their gender into question.

[/ramble] :P
You know, the more I read your posts, the more I like you. You have a gift for making excellent points in a concise manner.

Fenriswolf
12-18-2008, 02:27 AM
Bah, there's no smiling blush emoticon! Thanks, really: concise is the last thing I ever thought I was. :)