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glambman
03-12-2009, 02:58 PM
^ molesting child molesters will affect the economy?! AHAHAHA! That's retarded!

+1

It's almost like the broken window theory.

Eric Stoner
03-12-2009, 03:21 PM
The PRIMARY reasons for so many people being in the "System" are our stupid and archaic drug laws. Take non-violent, low-level drug offenders out of the system and how many are left ? Take non-violent white collar criminals out and how many are left ? Take ALL non-violent offenders out of prison and how many are left ?

Are we going to be any safer by having Bernie Madoff die in prison at public expense ? Has he or any other similar type crook ever been deterred by the threat of prison ? I say PAUPERIZE him. Let his victims sue him and force him to sell EVERYTHING he owns. Have the Feds do it and put the proceeds into a Compensation Fund. If we really want to stick it to him, send him to Guantanamo until he gives up where he hid the money. And give his wife and kids adjoining cells until he does. Just a few days of his "yenta" wife and spoiled brats kvetching at him about the accomodations and cuisine will be very effective "enhanced interrogation" indeed.

threlayer
03-13-2009, 10:25 AM
^^ The bad thing is the ones arrested are only the tip of the iceberg. Not that there are so many more than have acted out, but that there are so many that have it as a fantasy they dare not activate.

I just do not understand that. When I was a kid, I sure wanted to remain a kid and not be sexualized until I was gradually ready for it. Such a thing would have been very traumatic for me; it was even embarassing when adults or other kids talked sexually. I sympathize greatly for those who have been so traumatized. I also understand that many of those victims grow up to become offenders themselves, and I don't understand that part either.

ViolaStrings
03-13-2009, 11:27 AM
+1

It's almost like the broken window theory.

I actually agree with the broken window theory. It really helps in borderline neighborhoods.

glambman
03-13-2009, 11:52 AM
I actually agree with the broken window theory. It really helps in borderline neighborhoods.


Noooooooooo!!!!!! Just think of the money they would have if they didn't have to spent it on unnecessary windows.

threlayer
03-13-2009, 04:54 PM
The PRIMARY reasons for so many people being in the "System" are our stupid and archaic drug laws. Take non-violent, low-level drug offenders out of the system and how many are left ? Take non-violent white collar criminals out and how many are left ? Take ALL non-violent offenders out of prison and how many are left ?

Bernie Madoff goes free, even on parole?


What is the broken window 'theory'?

Elvia
03-13-2009, 05:09 PM
Just a few days of his "yenta" wife and spoiled brats kvetching at him about the accomodations and cuisine will be very effective "enhanced interrogation" indeed.

Ahh, always nice to throw a little racism onto the fire, hmm? ::)

glambman
03-13-2009, 05:38 PM
hmmm where's the racism. Yenta means 'one who meddles'.

Elvia
03-13-2009, 05:45 PM
^^ In emphasizing the Jewishness, employing stereotypes, etc...

glambman
03-13-2009, 05:46 PM
What is the broken window 'theory'?



1.) A broken window left unfixed invites more crime, etc. due to the message of apathy it sends.

OK I think this is the one Paris agrees to, as do I. But, it also has a second use:

2.) Someone breaks a store window. Owner gets it fixed. Window broken the next day and owner gets it fixed. And on. Now, while the owner is employing a window installer, shouldn't he have a right to spend the money as he sees fit.......punish the criminal and put a stop to the crime.

Golden_Rule
03-13-2009, 06:47 PM
If no one minds someone who was in law enforcement for twenty-five years jumping in and saying something about this?

A huge amount of the people incarcerated in the U.S. are so for drug possession. Not other crimes committed by drug users, like burglary, etc, but just possession of currently illegal drugs.

To my mind this is a problem. First off our jails and prisons have become schools of higher learning for criminal activity. You put someone in jail for drug possession they come out knowing how to steal cars, break into homes, dodge police, etc. It makes little sense to put a drug user in prison to make out of him a hardened criminal.

Second, because our prison and jail beds are so full of these drug offenders there aren't enough spaces for hardened criminals to be put in, and stay in, prison for extended periods. So you get all these release programs going that let real dangers to society back out amongst us.

O.W. Wilson, a very smart man whose teachings in social science and criminality have fallen out of favor found that 1:1000 people are career criminals. We incarcerate people for three reasons: 1) retribution: to punish the criminal. 2) to rehabilitate: to hopefully change the criminal into a productive, or at least safe, citizen. 3) The most important reason, segregation. To separate the 1:1000 from society during which time s/he is no threat or danger to society.

We need to remember that third reason and put it back into effect by getting drug offenders out of our correctional systems, into rehab beds, and have murders, rapists, burglars, robbers, and other assorted true criminals do their full sentences [certainly more than the 1/3 they average currently] for their convicted crimes. If this were to happen the fact that more true criminals were staying in correctional facilities for longer periods would reduce the career criminal population out of prison, amongst us, and crime would go down. That's simple math.

Rehab beds are approximately 1/2 cheaper than correctional beds. It is FAR cheaper to put someone in rehab than in jail or prison. You don't turn rehab clients into criminals.

As a former soldier on the street and supervisor level dealing with the 'war on drugs' I can tell you that it has been officially lost in the way we are fighting it now.

Almost all drugs should be decriminalized. Pot should be legalized. They should have the crap taxed out of it and those taxes should go to build rehab centers.

Prison and jail beds should go to criminals who commit crimes, which would include drug offenders if they fall over the edge into criminal activity BUT NOT FOR THE USE OR POSSESSION OF THE DRUGS THEMSELVES.

By doing this we would greatly reduce costs, reduce the population of our citizens in corrections facilities, while simultaneously keeping dangerous criminals in corrections for longer periods of time before they were paroled.

From my perspective as a former crime fighter it seems simple common sense.

Paris
03-13-2009, 07:01 PM
^^Agree 100%!

Unfortunately there has been way too much money at stake for too many people involved either in the penal system (private contractors) or the drug war (public funding).

It looks like California is considering making cannabis legal and taxing it at $50/ ounce. Oregon is also looking at getting into the medical marijuana biz, charging a $98/ ounce tax.

I didn't think that states would go this route before working toward legalizing hemp, but, whatever. Both hemp and marijuana can be an excellent opportunity to create revenue and growth in many markets. Hemp is probably the best possible crop for the creation of biofuels and use in biodegradable plastic products. It also is a good source of food from hemp seed for human consumption.

It only took, what? 40 years to change the puritanical thinking of our population on this issue. Only god knows how many billions of dollars have been wasted on prohibition.

glambman
03-13-2009, 07:08 PM
I kinda agree with both of you.

I favor forced rehab for first and even second time offenders, but at some point the ones who don't get it should be sent away.

However for trafficking in it (at any level) execution. If more than immediate personal use, go away the first time, then well.......

As an aside Paris, the best biofuels are the ones that are 'made', not converted from other resources.

Golden_Rule
03-13-2009, 07:39 PM
I kinda agree with both of you.

I favor forced rehab for first and even second time offenders, but at some point the ones who don't get it should be sent away.

I would favor, as long as it is only possession for use, just keep sending them back to rehab. Why put them in prison so they can learn to be criminals, and at twice the cost to boot?


However for trafficking in it (at any level) execution. If more than immediate personal use, go away the first time, then well.......

Well, you noted I trust in my initial post that I said possession and use, NOT sale.
Selling is a whole other matter.

glambman
03-13-2009, 07:42 PM
yup, just wanted to put all my views out there. :)

Paris
03-13-2009, 07:57 PM
However for trafficking in it (at any level) execution.

Yes, yes... we know you are for "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out" kind of justice.

I think maybe you were born about 100 years too late. The wild west would have been right up your alley.;)

glambman
03-13-2009, 09:18 PM
Yes, yes... we know you are for "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out" kind of justice.

I think maybe you were born about 100 years too late. The wild west would have been right up your alley.;)

Nope, executions for convicted criminals. No sorting out.

The WW was too violent where people would shoot others for the slightest wrong (real ones, but mainly perceived ones). ;)

threlayer
03-14-2009, 12:16 PM
I think G_R is about right. But I'm not so sure about legalizing pot (or any other drug) and then sending people to rehab for using it. That just doesn't sound any more (or less) logical than a mandatory rehab for alcoholism.

Eric Stoner
03-14-2009, 02:40 PM
^^ In emphasizing the Jewishness, employing stereotypes, etc...

Oh PULEEEZE ! You want to know who emphasized Madoff's "Jewishness" ? HE did ! That's right. If you look at his list of victims, they are overwhelmingly Jewish.
He preyed on his fellow Jews, especially down in Palm Beach and on Long Island. There's a Yacht Club down there that was started by Jews barred by Anti-Semitism from joining the local "Blue Blood" one so they started their own. Madoff preyed on his fellow members AND the fellow members of his synagogue.

I called his wife a "Yenta" to conjure up the image of her whining and kvetching as a form of psychological "torture" to which I think he is richly entitled. Another appropriate word for both of them would be HAUSERS.

Btw, my father was half-Jewish. Doesn't count under strict Jewish law but it was good enough for the Nazis to kill thousands of similarly situated not to mention the ENTIRE German branch of my family.

Eric Stoner
03-14-2009, 02:44 PM
Bernie Madoff goes free, even on parole?


What is the broken window 'theory'?

I NEVER said Bernie should go "Free". If it were up to me, he and his wife would be "Pauperized". EVERYTHING they own would be confiscated as "fruits" of his criminality. And I mean EVERYTHING ! Well beyond the Bankruptcy Code exemptions. Then I'd put him to work. 40 hours a week emptying bed-pans at minimum wage in an AIDS ward until he dropped dead. His wife and kids too.

threlayer
03-14-2009, 05:45 PM
^^ I know you didn't. That was just a humorous irony attempt. :)

You are right about Madoff exploiting fellow Jews because he built up their trust.

He and his fellow workers all should be punished, even as examples. This was the wrong deed at the wrong time. He will be forever at risk and live in infamy. And we will name big scams after his name.

He thought he had made off with with a huge money stash. But we will come looking for it all.

Golden_Rule
03-16-2009, 01:28 AM
I think G_R is about right. But I'm not so sure about legalizing pot (or any other drug) and then sending people to rehab for using it. That just doesn't sound any more (or less) logical than a mandatory rehab for alcoholism.

Misunderstanding there.

Cannibis was not part and parcel of the rehab bit. I wouldn't even recommend rehab for individuals who were still high functioning [paying their way, not committing any crimes or offenses, etc].

The court ordered rehab bit was only for people found to no longer be functioning [able to be self-sustaining] on drugs that were mere possession, still illegal, but decriminalized.

Pot, being legal in the system I was suggesting, wouldn't be one of those and the court couldn't mandate rehab unless some other violation had occurred which brought the party before the bench. Same as with alcohol currently.

I hope I made myself clearer this time around. [sorry]

threlayer
03-16-2009, 07:16 AM
I guess that is why in NYS they administer separate drug laws and marijuana laws. I'm not clear on it because drugs are not in my lifestyle.

However, alcohol is a big addictive substance problem. I'm talking the twelve step problem -- two six packs a day.