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Kaiyla
03-07-2009, 05:35 PM
ve been with my guy for four years. We've been through a lot together and have overcome a lot of issues as well...except for one issue; he is not sure he ever wants to get married. I've had an "idea" about this for years, but he confirmed it verbally last weekend ("I'm not sure I'll EVER want to get married."). To some degree, I understand this. We are both products of divorced families, with his Mom being divorced three times. Since moving to L.A. together, we have no friends around us that are happily married, but it seems that everyone around us is getting a divorce, including his sister. Fucking figures, of course. So there's not a lot of "happy vibes" about marriage going on around us right now.
My guy is hell bent on NEVER having to go through a divorce. That's what he says is at the core of this issue for him.

I do want to get married. I'm 30..not sure if I ever want kids, but am a total sap. Marriage is such a romantic gesture; the thought of someone asking you to spend the rest of your life with them is really beautiful. I do want that. The thing is, do I want it bad enough to end a relationship that is really great, otherwise? He does not seem like he is going to budge on this, and says the probability of him proposing within a year or two is unlikely. Could happen, but unlikely.

The thing that hurts is that he actually suggested that we should "go look at rings," a few months ago. Now he doesn't know if he ever wants to get married. I have an idea that this change of heart might have been because I was too pushy about marriage in between then and now. Plus, I'm not the easiest person to live with; I have my quirks and difficulties. Maybe the combo of these two things scared him off of it. Still, the change of heart hurts, and I'd be lying if I said I was not feeling some resentment toward him right now. He never should have said anything about looking for rings. it feels like a betrayal in some way.

I feel it's worth mentioning again, this issue aside; this guy is really great; supportive, loving, genuinely caring, and is bent on making sure that I am happy. I don't want to leave him, but I'm scared that eventually I will want to get married badly, and what if he's still not there yet? What would you guys do?

Kaiyla
03-08-2009, 11:44 AM
wow..no one?:O

hockeybobby
03-08-2009, 12:39 PM
Tell him you'd like to have an open relationship instead. That way you could see other guys/girls whatever, and perhaps meet a more suitable partner.

rockie
03-08-2009, 02:57 PM
Even though your partner can't commit to marrying you, it seems he's committed to you in every other way as described by you. There are many couples, married or not, who don't reach that level of commitment. Best wishes!

vivianbear
03-08-2009, 06:24 PM
I don't think fear of divorce is a good enough excuse to refuse to be married. If you have a fear of divorce, see a councilor or learn to problem-solve better. Not every little fight a couple has will lead to divorce.
I hope you get what you want. I got married very quickly to my husband (five weeks after we met) and haven't had a day of regret. I now feel sorry for friends of mine who seem trapped in relationships with a partner who has no intention of committing to marriage even though that's ultimately what the other inevitably wants (and is waiting for). Remember, its your life, too. Don't let his insecurities get in the way of your path to happiness.

charlie61
03-08-2009, 09:03 PM
I have a plethora of reasons for being personally against marriage...including the fact that it's a discriminatory institution that I feel no desire to endorse or even participate in (why again can't gay people get married?).

Your problem comes down to two options.

1) You love him enough to stay with him and compromise based on both of your belief systems (you wanting to get married is no more valid than his desire to NOT get married).
or
2) You put so much weight on a piece of paper that you must find another love of your life to replace him just so you can officially declare your love.

The choice is clear, yes?

I'd respectfully encourage you to re-examine your motives for getting married. Why not hold a commitment ceremony or something instead? Why is it that you place so much value on involving the law in your relationship? Could you just buy rings, pledge your love privately to one another, and be happy? Could you stage a wedding but not involve the state? Find out what it is he's afraid of.

You don't seem to value his reasons for avoiding marriage--but there are SO many people who hold his same opinion. Talk to the man! Communication is key here. :o)

Brooke
03-09-2009, 09:05 AM
It seems to me that you have a good man who is genuinely committed to loving you. Here's what I would do if I were you: pretend that you KNEW without a shadow of a doubt that you would never be married. (Honestly, I read your post, and that seems like the truth you don't want to believe.) When you think of your life if he never marries you, think about the possible outcomes. Is that a long-term loving relationship with out the legalities? Is that a year or two more before you can break up without the hassle of a divorce? What if you have children together? Think about your life together NOT married, and see how you feel. If you still think its a pretty good life together, I think that answers your question. If you see missing out on things that are important to you, that's your answer.

At this time, all the information you have is that he doesn't want to get married ever. If you twist that into something more palettable, you are not making a decision based upon the right criteria. If you made the decision based upon a hope he will feel differently in a few years, you are setting yourself up for failure. Make a decision based upon the facts and you are more likely to make the best decision for you. We all know that we can't change people. Can you accept a life with him the way he is?

Brooke
03-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Marriage is NOT just a piece of paper. Its a legally binding contract that everyone else has to respect as well - judges, medical professionals, life insurance, etc. And varying by state to state its more or less important. So let's just get that out on the table... its not about a piece of paper.

charlie61
03-09-2009, 09:40 AM
^^ No no no you misunderstood me. I wasn't belittling marriage...I was emphasizing the whole "bringing the law into the bedroom" part of it.

I'm currently dating someone who is going through a divorce AND has children. I am definitely, definitely aware that marriage is much more than a piece of paper! Thanks for catching that though.

pookie
03-09-2009, 09:53 AM
Ok, so i have an idea. IF you want to get married but he doesn't want to go through a divorce, why don't you guys have a ceremony or a hand fasting but not sign any legal papers? Its like being married, but you are not on paper.

Kaiyla
03-09-2009, 05:55 PM
These are all really great responses. This is so tough, probably one of the biggest decisions I'll ever make. I would be lying if I said that I am not hoping that in a year or two, he will change his mind. He always tells me how "so and so dated for___years before they were married." Meaning, he wants to "court" for a long time definitely.
He told me that we can do all of the things that married people do, he wants to continue to progress forward.
He suggested that maybe he could see a professional to try to work out his marriage issues. I thought this was a good idea.
More later, he just walked in.

charlie61
03-09-2009, 06:31 PM
^ Before going to a professional, I'd encourage you to try to talk him through his problems. Which part is he afraid of? The legal aspect of it? If so, that's completely understandable--divorce can suck some couples dry if things go wrong. The formality of it? That's also reasonable--sometimes the formality of marriage can change relationships in negative ways. Etc, Etc, Etc...

There are so many reasons he could be feeling this way! Try not to approach him with the mindset that your way of thinking is the right way. Try to get inside his head and understand him!

Kaiyla
03-09-2009, 07:20 PM
Brooke, you're right, he really is a good man. That's why this decision is so tough. If I pretend like we'll never get married, it's actually okay...up until a point. Whether I reach that point in two years, four years, whatever. Not being married to him eventually is going to hurt me and probably breed more resentment. I don't mind not being married in a year or what not, but I know it's something that I'll eventually want. I just really was looking forward to it with him.
Charlie, I'm going to do what you said and really try to get into his head. From what I know so far, he says that it's the concept of marriage and how you make a promise, but then when there is divorce, "the promise means nothing." He also feels like he is not where he wants to be right now, and it doesn't make him feel like making other drastic moves in his life. We moved to L.A. so he could try to break into acting. If I wait until he's successful and is finally feeling "great" about himself, who knows how long that will take. He also says divorce is "messy." Well no kidding. Messy kind of like me moving to L.A. with no job, no future prospects, and a brother resenting me for leaving our ill father. Life is messy, so that excuse isn't good enough....for me.
I just wish I could look down the line and see if we gave it more time, if he'd be ready someday. If not, I don't know if I can do this. After 4 years, that really hurts too.

charlie61
03-09-2009, 07:44 PM
^ Sounds like a good plan.

While you're at it, perhaps you should also re-examine why it is you want to get married. What does marriage mean to you?

When it comes down to it, marriage is just the involvement of the law in your personal relationship...which isn't exactly romantic. Are there other ways you two could pledge your commitment to each other without involving this institution?

Furthermore, it's possible that you two are speaking different languages here. You see his avoidance of marriage as a lack of commitment on his part, whereas in all actuality, it may have little to do with that. And he may see your insistence upon marriage as a way of legalizing what you already have, whereas you see it as a romantic gesture of commitment. Do you see what I'm saying? It sounds like you're both operating on different levels when it comes to marriage.

carmen_b
03-10-2009, 11:21 AM
I'm in a similar situation. I'm 29 and been with bf for ( gulp ) ..... 6 years. This is unheard of in my home area where marriages happen fast and it's not uncommon for women to bail within 6 months if there aren't promises of a ring soon. So .... I'm also figuring out what to do. I never really wanted to be married in my 20's .... but I didn't really "See " myself unmarried in my 30's either.
I don't know what to recommend because I'm trying to figure this stuff out myself .

I KNOW what you mean about wanting to have him WANT to commit to you for life. The gesture ( life commitment ) and him saying it means a lot . I don't want a big wedding and the whole idea does seem a little old fashioned, but I DO want a partner who wants me for life.

Kaiyla
03-11-2009, 07:01 PM
Pookie, that sounds like an idea that I might have to go with, if we are to never marry. I shouldn't make it sounds negative, because it's a celebration of love, and that should be a positive thing...it's just that I always envisioned the real deal. blahhh...
Carmen, I sympathize with you..keep us updated on your situation.

I wrote him a letter while I was at work this morning, letting him know that I do want to get married someday, but that I will try to exercise patience in the meantime. I just pray that he will want marriage someday, otherwise I'm going to be brokenhearted...not to mention like 35, single, with my cute years fading quickly, while all the other good men are taken. Ugh..I know that was melodramatic.

aviendha
03-20-2009, 10:23 AM
I think it's a mistake to assume that he has some kind of psychological issue because he doesn't want to get married. He doesn't want to marry you, you want to marry him, it's that simple. You have a choice: wait for him to change his mind (which, in my opinion, is a mistake, because he has told you flat-out he has no plans to marry you), or leave. If I were you, I would just cut my losses.

And speaking as someone who really doesn't find the prospect of marriage appealing, but who keeps an open mind in case the most awesome person ever comes along, I will say this: if I'm dating someone, and the subject of marriage comes up (which it thankfully rarely does), if I tell them I have no interest in getting married, it is definitely because I already know I won't be marrying THEM.

carmen_b
03-20-2009, 11:12 AM
I was thinking about this thread recently. Are you totally in love with him ? I don't want to thread jack, but it's a basic question and I ( don't think ) you answered it yet. I'll give more info abouto my own situation in another thread or after you answer.

charlie61
03-20-2009, 05:04 PM
I think it's a mistake to assume that he has some kind of psychological issue because he doesn't want to get married. He doesn't want to marry you, you want to marry him, it's that simple. You have a choice: wait for him to change his mind (which, in my opinion, is a mistake, because he has told you flat-out he has no plans to marry you), or leave. If I were you, I would just cut my losses.

And speaking as someone who really doesn't find the prospect of marriage appealing, but who keeps an open mind in case the most awesome person ever comes along, I will say this: if I'm dating someone, and the subject of marriage comes up (which it thankfully rarely does), if I tell them I have no interest in getting married, it is definitely because I already know I won't be marrying THEM.

Exactly!!! Soooo true.

Crow2
03-20-2009, 07:42 PM
Someone mentioned, well several people mentioned the legality of marriage -

Have you thought of what sort of legal benefits marriage has? Taxes, Insurance.. etc.
What happens if he ( or yourself ) dies. Then what.. God forbid that ever happens. I'm just playing devils advocate here. It is something to consider.

Love is wonderful, romance should always be in a relationship. Then again, the hard cold truth is that promises of love wont feed you.

hinter
12-14-2010, 07:29 PM
I'm in a similar boat. It sucks because I know I want to even though I totally get the objection side too. I too need to examine my own marriage fantasy before questioning his allergy to the concept.
omg he's so not 'playing the field' or a player or anything either. he's so great.
i'm a sap kinda too.
I don't know what to tell you except something I thought of; so if you get married, what changes for the better?
Is it for reassurance?
Romance?
Convention?
Status?
I haven't unraveled why I entertain the idea of marriage but I do, I want a ring, I dunno why.
Does it seem like kind of a 'game'? Like, if you lost interest he'd be into it again? I feel like thats a tiny part of the psyche of my thing. Not a big part, thankfully, because I'm over mind games. I think it's just basic human psychology though.

shanna dior
12-14-2010, 08:49 PM
It sounds like you're going off random things he's said, and while that letter you wrote him is definitely a good way to bring this up, I think it'd be really important for you two to sit down and discuss marriage. Find out, in his words, why he is so against marriage, and explain why it's so important to you - not in a 'trying to convince' him way, but just matter of fact 'this is why I want to get married one day.' Then go from there. There are plenty of other options as illustrated above, so maybe something else can work for your relationship and make you both happy, but you won't know that until you two talk and figure it out together. I can't imagine it'll be an easy talk because it can go a lot of ways you may not want it to, but if marriage is something that's important to you, and if this relationship is something you would consider marriage material, then it's crucial to get it out in the open and work together. :hug:

Mr Hyde
12-15-2010, 09:30 AM
I'm gonna say something that not a lot here will agree with, but you need to tell him to make a decision.

I think it's BS when guys say things "I'm not sure if I want to get married" to a girl they've been dating as long you have.

Be a fucking man. Make a move.

As much as I decry idiots who run off and get married at 18, I also don't think it's mature to just "date" forever. That screams out insecurity and immaturity to me.

So my honest advice would to give him an ultimatum, if being married is what you really want. You're not old, but you're not getting any younger, and I'd guess you'll be right where you are in 5 years if you let HIM call the shots.

Jessica1001
12-15-2010, 10:12 AM
Please, GET THIS BOOK: "Unmarried to each other".

http://www.amazon.com/Unmarried-Each-Other-Essential-Together/dp/B0012LUMUY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1292431799&sr=8-1

It helped ME clarify some of my feelings about marriage and relationships.... I would BUY THIS BOOK FOR YOU, if I knew where to ship it... that's how great I think it is. ;-)

In it, the authors take you through all sorts of relationship 'philosophies'.... they dont necessarily push one way of living over another, but they do really delve into WHY you might be feeling so strongly about "Getting Married", and other ways that you can create that committment, without necessarily tying the knot in the legal sense. For instance, it talks about people who have been in monogamous, committed relationships for 50 YEARS, have never legally married for whatever reason, but whose relationships are stronger and more loving and committed that most of the married folks out there. But if legal marriage IS the be-all, end-all (nothing wrong with that... you just have to figure out WHY you feel the way you feel), the book also helps you figure out how to deal with a partner who is not on board, and helps you decide whether it's time to move on, change your perspective, change the way you talk to him about it, or whatever.

It goes over SO MANY potentially hairy situations (gay couples.... foster kids... kids from previous marriage.. home ownership... inheritances... making a will), and describes how other couples have found solutions. For instance... couples who are 100% committed, but where one partner would lose health insurance if they went through with a legal marriage. Or... couples who don't want to get legally married, but want to have all their bases covered in terms of taking care of the kids..... there are a million possible ways to draw up contracts for this sort of thing, that PROTECT both partners, and wouldn't leave you high and dry if you decided to be the stay-at-home parent and then something happened to your partner, for example...

It really opened up my eyes as to the whole concept of marriage, and committment..... the bottom line really IS that it's all about COMMUNICATION, and understanding what your partner's expectations are. It WOULD be pretty silly to throw away an amazing relationship because of the guy's refusal to sign a piece of paper, wouldn't it? This book will help you figure out HOW to talk to your man, to learn exactly WHAT his fears are, what his goals are, and how you figure into his life. I cannot recommend this book enough.... for people who KNOW they want to get married, for people who know they NEVER do, and for everyone in between. It's about making YOUR RELATIONSHIP WORK FOR YOU.... creating a custom-made union .... not about fitting into society's mold of 'what age should a woman get married', 'how long to wait for the ring', and 'when to give him the ultimatum'. All that stuff is artificial BS.

I read this book right before making the big step of moving in with my man.... something I was a bit uncomfortable with, having sworn my whole life that "If I am good enough to live with, I am good enough to marry." It really opened my eyes, and I realized "Holy shit... this man does this and this, and says this and this, and it is clear from his ACTIONS that this man IS committed to me. The important people in this relationship are ME and HIM... not the fucking wedding magazines who keep telling me I should be tapping my foot, impatiently waiting for The Ring."

Seriously... it has made ME so much more confident in where I am in my relationship... and it has made me less jealous, less resentful, and less.... insecure. You sound like you are kinda in the same place *I* was..... please please please get this book!!!

Best of luck....

-Jessica

girlfromipanema
12-15-2010, 02:31 PM
I'm gonna say something that not a lot here will agree with, but you need to tell him to make a decision.

I think it's BS when guys say things "I'm not sure if I want to get married" to a girl they've been dating as long you have.

Be a fucking man. Make a move.

As much as I decry idiots who run off and get married at 18, I also don't think it's mature to just "date" forever. That screams out insecurity and immaturity to me.

So my honest advice would to give him an ultimatum, if being married is what you really want. You're not old, but you're not getting any younger, and I'd guess you'll be right where you are in 5 years if you let HIM call the shots.

I agree with the ultimatum thing, but be prepared to leave because the man will not always comply. I left a 5 year relationship because I got tired of waiting for him. I don't regret leaving and wish I had left sooner. Many men have no problem wasting your time, and will push it as long as they can. You don't have to psyche yourself out of wanting to be married to accomodate him. You just have to act in your best interest and find someone on the same page as you.

My current boyfriend got offered a job in another state and asked me to drop everything to move with him. I say "No I'm not relocating across the country for some boyfriend." Then he says he thinks we are not just boyfriend and girlfriend. That we are more than that. So he has created his own special status that lies between girlfriend and fiance! ::) Nice try. I told him he can either get engaged to me or move alone. I'm not holding my breath, but it feels good to stand up for myself.

Mr Hyde
12-15-2010, 04:56 PM
I agree with the ultimatum thing, but be prepared to leave because the man will not always comply. I left a 5 year relationship because I got tired of waiting for him. I don't regret leaving and wish I had left sooner. Many men have no problem wasting your time, and will push it as long as they can. You don't have to psyche yourself out of wanting to be married to accomodate him. You just have to act in your best interest and find someone on the same page as you.

My current boyfriend got offered a job in another state and asked me to drop everything to move with him. I say "No I'm not relocating across the country for some boyfriend." Then he says he thinks we are not just boyfriend and girlfriend. That we are more than that. So he has created his own special status that lies between girlfriend and fiance! ::) Nice try. I told him he can either get engaged to me or move alone. I'm not holding my breath, but it feels good to stand up for myself.

I'm a traitor to my gender to a degree by saying this, but you're smart in the ways of guys.

Kellydancer
12-16-2010, 12:28 PM
I noticed this thread is old but I think so much of the advice is valid. I think to be honest women want marriage more than men but men want marriage too (they just hide it more). In fact over 90% of all people do eventually marry so even most of the anti marriage people will eventually marry. That's why I don't take much in consideration when a guy says he'll never marry when I first date. However if after awhile he still feels that way I usually move on. Some guys come back, others don't.

I am reminded of advice my parents have given men. My mom told me that she thinks part of the problem with single women today is they give up everything too early. My mother is a big believer in not living with someone, no babies or owning property together until marriage. My mom had several guys propose to her and she never slept with any of them (of course looking like a Barbie as she did helped too). My dad also said that men will often say they don't want to marry but when they find the one and are afraid they'll lose them they marry. My parents have several friends where the woman said she was moving on because her boyfriend refused to marry her. In every single case the guy eventuallly committed. Of course these were guys who loved their girlfriend and didn't want to lose her.

Having said that, if after a few years he's still this way he probably won't change, especially if he's older. If he's younger he's probably not ready, but if he's older and has been dating for years he probably won't change. However, even then there are exceptions. My uncle was strongly anti marriage (got stung by his exwife) and dated someone for years before he eventually married her.

pierrepaul
12-16-2010, 02:16 PM
As mentioned above, marriage is a legal contract, with legal ramifications and consequences. The rights and obligations associated with marriage vary from state to state and from country to country. It has nothing to do with love or committment. Love and committment can exist outside of marriage just as betrayal and infidelity can exist inside of marriage

The question to ask yourself is why do you want these legal rights. Is it for insurance purposes? Immigration purposes? The right to a property settlement if the relationship dissolves?

I don't know about your state and country, but where I live, the ONLY difference between matrimony and "living together" is money, and so if I were ever again in a relationship where a girl suggested marriage, I would seriously wonder whether or not her interest in me was primarily about money.

girlfromipanema
12-16-2010, 05:01 PM
As mentioned above, marriage is a legal contract, with legal ramifications and consequences. The rights and obligations associated with marriage vary from state to state and from country to country. It has nothing to do with love or committment. Love and committment can exist outside of marriage just as betrayal and infidelity can exist inside of marriage

The question to ask yourself is why do you want these legal rights. Is it for insurance purposes? Immigration purposes? The right to a property settlement if the relationship dissolves?

I don't know about your state and country, but where I live, the ONLY difference between matrimony and "living together" is money, and so if I were ever again in a relationship where a girl suggested marriage, I would seriously wonder whether or not her interest in me was primarily about money.

Unless you are wealthy I don't think you need to worry about a woman wanting to marry you for money. If you are, then there is a prenuptual agreement that you can use to protect yourself.

I don't think many women have money on the mind when they want to marry a man. Marriage is also a ceremony, a promise to be there for each other. A wife is someone who would care for you when you are sick and on your death bed. If you have children together, you would all share the same name. Yes there are legal benefits and consequences and that's what makes it real, as opposed to a boyfriend saying "I'm committed to you." It's fine if you personally don't want to marry, but your reasoning that it is just about money is a bit short-sighted.

Kellydancer
12-16-2010, 11:47 PM
Unless you are wealthy I don't think you need to worry about a woman wanting to marry you for money. If you are, then there is a prenuptual agreement that you can use to protect yourself.

I don't think many women have money on the mind when they want to marry a man. Marriage is also a ceremony, a promise to be there for each other. A wife is someone who would care for you when you are sick and on your death bed. If you have children together, you would all share the same name. Yes there are legal benefits and consequences and that's what makes it real, as opposed to a boyfriend saying "I'm committed to you." It's fine if you personally don't want to marry, but your reasoning that it is just about money is a bit short-sighted.

Yep, all of the above (though highly unlikely I'd take my husband's last name). I want to marry but not because of money. I couldn't care less about that. If I did I'd look for different guys than I want.

pierrepaul
12-17-2010, 08:57 AM
Unless you are wealthy I don't think you need to worry about a woman wanting to marry you for money. If you are, then there is a prenuptual agreement that you can use to protect yourself.

I will believe this when I see women in divorce court voluntarily renouncing alimony payments. In 25 years of law practice I have yet to see one divorcing woman not ask for alimony - and this goes for multi-millionaires all the way down to insolvent couples. I've never seen the ex-wife-to-be say, "oh, my husband doesn't have that much money, no need to split the property in half and just forget about the alimony."

In the jurisdiction in which I live, pre-nuptual agreements are not recognized as legally binding; my jurisdiction also has the highest rate of un-married cohabiting couples in Canada.


Marriage is also a ceremony, a promise to be there for each other. A wife is someone who would care for you when you are sick and on your death bed.

A couple can make all of these promises and have such a ceremony without importing along with it all of the legal rules and obligations imposed by the state for a marriage.


If you have children together, you would all share the same name.

Where I live women by law must keep their name after marriage. Children may take the name of either the father or mother, or a composite of the two.


Yes there are legal benefits and consequences and that's what makes it real, as opposed to a boyfriend saying "I'm committed to you."

But the legal burdens (I won't call them benefits because they usually are not) and consequences only deal with property and money. The court will not enforce the promise to "be there for each other"; the court will not enforce the promise of "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health"; nor will the courts enforce the promise of fidelity - you can't get an injunction ordering a spouse not to cheat. In that respect the marriage committment is no stronger and has no greater force than a boyfriend/girlfriend couple declaring a committment. The only obligations resulting from marriage that a court will enforce deal with property and money.

Perhaps in your jurisdiction the laws are different.

girlfromipanema
12-17-2010, 11:19 AM
Ok. Marriage is only about money and divorce is only about money. It's not about love its not about family. To hell with the whole thing. Any woman you date who brings up marriage is after your money and nothing else. Glad you got that all sorted. :-\

pierrepaul
12-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Ok. Marriage is only about money and divorce is only about money. It's not about love its not about family. To hell with the whole thing. Any woman you date who brings up marriage is after your money and nothing else. Glad you got that all sorted. :-\

Bingo. You don't need involve the state's legal apparatus to have love, family and committment. You can still have a ceremony, exchange rings, have flowers, fancy dresses, tuxedos, music, dancing and a great feast - all without the government's permission or involvement.

http://www.health.state.ny.us/vital_records/married.htm

The above link is a summary of the process of getting married in New York - love and commitment are not a requirements to get married in New York.

http://www.marriage-laws.info/texas/texas-marriage-laws/

Love and commitment don't appear to be requirements to get married in Texas either.

Where I live (Quebec) the word "love" doesn't appear in any of the legislation governing marriage.

In every jurisdiction with which I am familiar, love, family and commitment are not part of a legal marriage. One may have love, family and commitment without a legal marriage, and one can have a legal marriage without love, family and commitment - in law, the two have little to do with each other.

Kellydancer
12-17-2010, 05:45 PM
Maybe it's me but I don't know many women who ask for alimony. Personally, I don't believe in alimony in most cases and certainly not in my case. Not all women are gold diggers.

girlfromipanema
12-18-2010, 02:28 AM
If you take your lawyer glasses off for a minute you will see that marriage was around before New York, Texas, and Quebec. It sucks that the government has shit on it, but it is still held as sacred to some. Guess it's just another one of those stupid traditional things like a bat mitzvah.

If you're a numbers guy, take a poll on the reasons why women want to marry. I reckon money will not be as high ranking as you think.

If a woman you're dating happens to bring it up, instead of assuming she has dollar signs on her mind, maybe give her the benefit of the doubt that she has never looked at marriage from your point of view. Maybe it would be an opportunity to educate her on why you are not interested. I would be tickled pink if a boyfriend presented me with sourced evidence as to why he opposes marriage.

Fenriswolf
12-18-2010, 04:05 AM
For christ's sake. If you live in the US, you are really fucked if you're not married (hence how gay marriage is fucking important); if your partner is in hospital on their death bed you have no rights to see them. If one of you is parenting you may not be able to get on the other's insurance. If one of you is parenting and the other dies you may be screwed out of being able to support your family, or even have your child taken from you.

Yeah, some of these are related to money, but not in the way you imply.

I am bloody lucky to live in a country where we do not need to be married (or even have a civil union) to have these rights, but the majority of people on this board are not.

And that is regardless of the complete load of shit that no person can want to be married for the myriad of other reasons that exist - religion, belief that those vows count more than others (this is just slightly socially enforced), reassurance that you are "marriage material", and being raised to see your marriage as "the most exciting day of your life".

Not that I'm really expecting you to actually take my post in good faith; you reek of MRA. But I still want to make my point - that you can be personally opposed to marriage yet understand that others are not, without being a judgemental wanker.

/rant

girlfromipanema
12-18-2010, 08:12 AM
Now tell us how you really feel, Fenriswolf ;D

Kellydancer
12-18-2010, 01:04 PM
For christ's sake. If you live in the US, you are really fucked if you're not married (hence how gay marriage is fucking important); if your partner is in hospital on their death bed you have no rights to see them. If one of you is parenting you may not be able to get on the other's insurance. If one of you is parenting and the other dies you may be screwed out of being able to support your family, or even have your child taken from you.

Yeah, some of these are related to money, but not in the way you imply.

I am bloody lucky to live in a country where we do not need to be married (or even have a civil union) to have these rights, but the majority of people on this board are not.

And that is regardless of the complete load of shit that no person can want to be married for the myriad of other reasons that exist - religion, belief that those vows count more than others (this is just slightly socially enforced), reassurance that you are "marriage material", and being raised to see your marriage as "the most exciting day of your life".

Not that I'm really expecting you to actually take my post in good faith; you reek of MRA. But I still want to make my point - that you can be personally opposed to marriage yet understand that others are not, without being a judgemental wanker.

/rant

Yes. I knew a gay couple who were together over 20+, even had property together. The one partner died and his boyfriend got screwed out of everything. The deceased partner's family (who disowned him) got everything, his business, his house, while his partner got nothing. I've seen things like this happen to living together hetereosexual couples but never this bad.

I would never own property or have children with someone I wasn't married to ever. People don't realize this either, but a child born to unwed parents is often at disadvantages. Men lose out on this case and there are many cases where the dad completely lost his parental right because he wasn't married to the mom. I know in some cases he has the rights, but usually after he went to court. If he was married to the mom his rights are automatic. If his wife dies, more than likely he will keep the kids, but if never married he may need to fight for the rights. I know many cases like these. Call me old fashioned but no way am I having a kid with a boyfriend, only a husband.

Arialandre
12-19-2010, 02:50 AM
PierrePaul,

Marriage is just about money my ass. My bf is baaarOKE right now, but I still want to marry him. Why? Not to inherit his fucking debt that's for DAMN sure. No I want to marry him because he is the sweetest man I've ever been with. He is SO good to me mentally and emotionally. We are best friends and we want to spend the rest of our lives together. Marriage was not really a big deal for him until I came into the picture, and so he went from "No marriage , NOOOO!" to "Your MINE for life woman and this wedding will be legendary!" I'm all for marriage as a solid symbol of two people's public commitment to one another.

I don't look at marriage as the sociological joke it has become but as what it represents to ME. I think of marriage as the ultimate commitment. You+Me=4Eva. On the other hand I also believe that in marriage each couple (or poly-relationship) it should be whatever it means to those in the relationships. Some people consider marriage a contract of security. Others the ultimate symbol of love and respect, and to others something else completely. I don't care about how OTHER people see marriage. My marriage will be whatever I want it to be and we will make our own rules.

As to a woman wanting half when it comes to divorce. If I were to divorce my husband, yes I would want half. Not as in all my stuff PLUS half of his, but half of the combined assests. Why? Well there are two of us duh. Two people equally commiting to a joint life. SO when that life breaks in half...so does everything else. Unless he turned out to be a scheming, cheating, abusive, horrible person. Well then yes I would want to take all I could get and walk. But that's simply because it's the only LEGAL way a woman can get revenge on her ex-husband for that kind of pain he inflicted. If he beat her, the courts won't say "Ok Mrs.Smith you can beat him back as restitution until it all balances out". But she CAN take a ton of his money to help her start her new life. Most don't have the mentality (or bail money) to set his car on fire and then cut off his cheating dick.

When people try to join lives it's COMPLICATED. It can be messy and it can be beautiful. I actually feel sorry for you when you say that you would automatically assume if a woman wanted to marry you it's for your money. Because to me that sounds like you don't think any woman could love you enough for just being YOU to want to fully and completely join her life with yours. That no woman could be raised to still hold a sense of tradition when it comes to a full wedding ceremony whether it be a religious ceremony or done by a justice of the peace. Some women simply still hold SOME sense of tradition.

So don't insult us and marriage just because your warped views and lacking sense of self worth.

pierrepaul
12-29-2010, 09:28 AM
If you take your lawyer glasses off for a minute you will see that marriage was around before New York, Texas, and Quebec. It sucks that the government has shit on it, but it is still held as sacred to some. Guess it's just another one of those stupid traditional things like a bat mitzvah.

That is precisely why I'd have no problem with a commitment ceremony and a private contract that didn't get tied into the state's pidgeon-holed definition of "marriage" (which I will remind everyone once again, has nothing to do with the values of love and commitment).

Nor do I have any problem with women using the rights conferred by marriage to extract funds from a cheating husband - since the courts generally refuse to award damages for breach of the marriage contract. Of course, when it is the wife who broke the marriage vows (as is the case in half the instances of infidelity), the husband, if he is the higher earning partner, still has no rights, only obligations. If the law allowed a faithful husband to throw out a cheating wife without having to continue to support her, this would be an improvement. If the law recognized and enforced a marriage contract where the injured party was compensated and the breaching party was made to pay damages, I'd sign on for that kind of a marriage in a heartbeat. Currently I know of no jurisdiction in the western world that recognizes such a marriage; my jurisdiction certainly does not.

pierrepaul
12-29-2010, 09:52 AM
For christ's sake. If you live in the US, you are really fucked if you're not married (hence how gay marriage is fucking important); if your partner is in hospital on their death bed you have no rights to see them.

In many states a properly executed power of attorney and so-called "living will" appointing one's unmarried partner as attorney with power to make medical care decisions deals with this issue. If your state doesn't recognize such instruments it is a problem.


If one of you is parenting and the other dies you may be screwed out of being able to support your family, or even have your child taken from you.

That would indeed be strange. I know of no jurisdiction in which an unmarried parent loses custody of a child upon the death of the child's other parent, but if the laws of your jurisdiction contain such a provision, it is a problem.


And that is regardless of the complete load of shit that no person can want to be married for the myriad of other reasons that exist - religion, belief that those vows count more than others (this is just slightly socially enforced), reassurance that you are "marriage material", and being raised to see your marriage as "the most exciting day of your life".

Again, all of that can be done without shoe-horning one's particular relationship into the cookie-cutter "marriage" laws of a particular state or province. It is entirely possible (at least in my jurisdiction) to have the whole ceremony, white dress, walk down the aisle, flowers, tuxedos, limosines, public vows of love and fidelity, reception, honeymoon, limosines and the like without signing on to government-defined marriage.


I don't look at marriage as the sociological joke it has become but as what it represents to ME. I think of marriage as the ultimate commitment. You+Me=4Eva. On the other hand I also believe that in marriage each couple (or poly-relationship) it should be whatever it means to those in the relationships. Some people consider marriage a contract of security. Others the ultimate symbol of love and respect, and to others something else completely. I don't care about how OTHER people see marriage. My marriage will be whatever I want it to be and we will make our own rules.

Your state has an enlightened legislature (IMHO) if it allows married partners to write their own rules and if the courts will then enforce those privately written rules. My jurisdiction, and many other western jurisdictions, do not allow us to make our own rules; my province's legislature has, by fiat, pre-empted such private marriage arrangements and shoe-horned them into the government's definition of marriage.

I have no objections to traditional marriage; my objections are with the particular form of "marriage" imposed by my province's legislature, and from what I know of the laws of a handful of other provinces and US states, I would be opposed to their forms of marriage as well.

girlfromipanema
12-29-2010, 11:53 AM
I don't know about your state and country, but where I live, the ONLY difference between matrimony and "living together" is money, and so if I were ever again in a relationship where a girl suggested marriage, I would seriously wonder whether or not her interest in me was primarily about money.

Still, this is a bit jaded. I'm sure you're smart enough to weed out the ones interested in your money before the relationship gets too serious. And if it does get serious and she brings up marriage, chances are she is not a con artist out to get you. I hope you find someone understanding and willing to adapt to your views.