View Full Version : Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old
Perry
03-15-2009, 03:30 PM
Finally, friends, there is absolutely no reason to opt for abortion when God allows us, and in some instances, orders us, to rid ourselves of troublesome children after they’re born. Wasn’t it God who said, “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones” (Psalms 137:9)? Why insist on prenatal killing when the post-natal killing options are so widespread? The Bible authorizes us to kill just about any child who becomes burdensome. According to Deuteronomy, if a child is unruly and disobedient, we not only have the option of killing him, but it is mandatory that he be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). The same is true for a child who speaks to us with foul language (Exodus 21:17). Or a child who hits us (Exodus 21:15).
The bottom line is that only coerced abortion is allowed in the Bible, not abortion on demand. And God, in his infinite compassion, provided us with the means of eliminating troublesome children once they are born and we know for sure they are unwanted. So tell your skeptical acquaintances to put away the coat hangers, once and for all, and let the child be born, but have stones and the Proverbial rod handy, just in case.
*giggle snort*
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/abortion.html
safado
03-15-2009, 03:37 PM
^^ Most child support is only supplementary. They say the average child support payment in the US is $250 a month. I've never had a child, but I lived with my ex and his child, and $250 wouldn't even cover half a months day care. The man isn't usually being ordered to pay an amount that totals half of the child expenses, and he's not obligated to provide any hands on care for the child. So let's not pretend it's all on the poor fathers.
Actually that is not true I have two friends that are paying child support, one guy is paying 850/month for one child and the other is paying 1400/month for two. It is based on some calculation that the state has that takes into account how much money the father makes and how much money the mother makes. Both of these guys ex's make less than 25,000 a year so they have to pick up the slack. On top of the child support payments they are also supplying the health insurance. I don't know if it is a fair amount to pay or not as I don't have kids, but I sure hear them constantly bitching about it.
Elvia
03-15-2009, 03:52 PM
^^^ And as long as we're citing anecdotal evidence, I'm sure many of us have known single mothers who didn't get jack. Here's an example of one state's average child support payments:
http://www.state.sc.us/dss/csed/stats.htm
safado
03-15-2009, 04:04 PM
Here is the calculation sheet for mass
http://www.mass.gov/courts/formsandguidelines/csg2006.html
JayATee
03-15-2009, 04:26 PM
How about opening the door on how only the woman has the right to choose whether or not she carries the child to term. The guy has no say, even if he will keep it (happened to my friend, tore him up). But, if she decides to keep it, and the guy doesn't really want it, he's stuck paying for it.
Do you have children? Or have you ever been through a pregnancy with someone? There is so much you seem to just be clueless about.
Women get the choice bc it's the woman that has to go through the pregnancy. She's the one who gets to be sick in some cases the whole time she's pregnant. She's the one whose entire body has to change for the 9mos she's carrying. She's the one who is going to be exhausted, and hungry every few hours, have swollen feet, and constantly have to pee regardless of where she is or what she is doing. She's the one who has to put her career on hold. She's the one who has to deal with the side effects like lactose intolerance or gestational diabetes. Then she gets to go into labor which sometimes can take days. She gets to painfully push this child out of her body, which can sometimes go wrong and put herself and the baby at risk of any number of things including death.
Give me a break, you're gonna whine over the fact that it's not "fair" that only women have the right to choose? You know what? It's not fair that men can screw whoever they want and never have to worry about getting pregnant. It's not fair that every single month I have to worry about bleeding all over my clothes when my period surprises me, or the pain I have to go through while I'm on my period. And it's not fair, that if a woman dares screw up and find herself pregnant, that she has to be called a whore, and baby killer by people like you who seem to think that she should just deal with it since she made the decision to have sex in the first place.
glambman
03-15-2009, 05:16 PM
ahhhhh the sanctification of motherhood.
Actually, I wasn't making the argument, I was merely asking a question. And I haven't said this is what I believe. It's just a matter of equality and choice, isn't it. So, who gives a crapola about how much money it is, why should the guy pay anything if it's not his choice to keep it.
To your last para, is that like saying when a woman can perform on par with what males are required, then they should be considered for the same job? And that's without lowering standards of guys.
Elvia
03-15-2009, 05:24 PM
How about opening the door on how only the woman has the right to choose whether or not she carries the child to term. The guy has no say, even if he will keep it (happened to my friend, tore him up). But, if she decides to keep it, and the guy doesn't really want it, he's stuck paying for it.
Actually, there is no question here. You were not asking a question.
glambman
03-15-2009, 05:24 PM
*giggle snort*
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/abortion.html
lol
Abortion is not some new medical procedure. When do you think doing home pregnancy tests started? It was Babylon or Mesopotamia. They identified the principles of detecting pregnancy by using the woman's urine, the same principles used today. If you get technical, there is nothing against the use of a thermo-nuke, so instead of losing soldiers in Iraq and Afghan, why not just drop some on them? hmmmmmmmm
Elvia
03-15-2009, 05:29 PM
To your last para, is that like saying when a woman can perform on par with what males are required, then they should be considered for the same job? And that's without lowering standards of guys.
Wow, you certainly like to jump from one issue to the next,don't you?
No, sweetheart. It's nothing like that at all. LOL.
glambman
03-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Do you have children? Or have you ever been through a pregnancy with someone? There is so much you seem to just be clueless about.
I do not have kids of my own. I was in a position where I was able to care for my niece full time for the first year of her life (since her dad was mad at my sis and didn't want anything to do with them. He also made his parents choose him or her. He was the only son.) and I have been an integral part of her life for the next almost 15 years (She turns 16 in June. Why did she have to grow up. lol ). I am also the "uncle" to my longest friends daughter (which is good, because she (friend).
Women get the choice bc it's the woman that has to go through the pregnancy. She's the one who gets to be sick in some cases the whole time she's pregnant. She's the one whose entire body has to change for the 9mos she's carrying. She's the one who is going to be exhausted, and hungry every few hours, have swollen feet, and constantly have to pee regardless of where she is or what she is doing. She's the one who has to put her career on hold. She's the one who has to deal with the side effects like lactose intolerance or gestational diabetes. Then she gets to go into labor which sometimes can take days. She gets to painfully push this child out of her body, which can sometimes go wrong and put herself and the baby at risk of any number of things including death.
Then sue mother nature for not making us equal. Or maybe accept the fact that there are differences between men and woman (and that's not a bad thing).
Give me a break, you're gonna whine over the fact that it's not "fair" that only women have the right to choose? You know what? It's not fair that men can screw whoever they want and never have to worry about getting pregnant. It's not fair that every single month I have to worry about bleeding all over my clothes when my period surprises me, or the pain I have to go through while I'm on my period. And it's not fair, that if a woman dares screw up and find herself pregnant, that she has to be called a whore, and baby killer by people like you who seem to think that she should just deal with it since she made the decision to have sex in the first place.
I was mere;y asking a question, you are the one whining, just look at your 2 previous paragraph.
You're getting too emotional, I have already said I do not agree with labeling someone a whore (unless they truly are one) or even shouting the "baby killer" slogans. Others agree with me, I think it is the minority that say those things, but they are very vocal and make a good showcase for the media.
And your last sentence makes it seem like it's her fault, all on her, etc.. I believe it should be "they" chose to engage in certain actions, and are as such both responsible.
If one makes the choice to jump off a bridge, there are consequences for that course of action.
Elvia
03-15-2009, 05:44 PM
And your last sentence makes it seem like it's her fault, all on her, etc.. I believe it should be "they" chose to engage in certain actions, and are as such both responsible.
Unless ofcourse she decided to not have an abortion- then it's "why should he pay anything if he doesn't want it?"
glambman
03-15-2009, 05:44 PM
Wow, you certainly like to jump from one issue to the next,don't you?
No, sweetheart. It's nothing like that at all. LOL.
ughhh name calling???? Or should that be ohhhhhh you're calling me a cute name, dah'ling. ;D
It's an issue of equality, 2 people made the baby. Not 1, but 2. So what if only one carries it.
Elvia
03-15-2009, 05:50 PM
The whole issue is, you want to punish women who have sex. You obviously don't care about the child. The fact that you're against everyone having access to healthcare shows you're not concerned about human life. You compare an organization to Nazi Germany that helps many poor women gain access to contraception, to prevent unwanted births.
This pretty much sums it up.
Thank God men like you aren't in a position to be making decisions about reproductive rights.
glambman
03-15-2009, 05:52 PM
Unless ofcourse she decided to not have an abortion- then it's "why should he pay anything if he doesn't want it?"
Only because it is equal with no choice of the father if she gets the abortion.
glambman
03-15-2009, 05:58 PM
This pretty much sums it up.
Context, context, context.
MSanger shared the same Nazi beliefs (eugenics, racism, etc.), just look at her own speaches and writings. It's her own words.
eagle2
03-15-2009, 06:04 PM
If one makes the choice to jump off a bridge, there are consequences for that course of action.
I'm sure people jump off bridges all the time for pleasure.
eagle2
03-15-2009, 06:05 PM
Context, context, context.
MSanger shared the same Nazi beliefs (eugenics, racism, etc.), just look at her own speaches and writings. It's her own words.
There's no comparison. Margaret Sanger never advocated wiping out an entire people.
glambman
03-15-2009, 06:14 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with
social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most
successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal.
We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro
population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if
it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
-- Margaret Sanger's December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255
Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith
Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in
Linda Gordon's Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth
Control in America . New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.
"Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying
... demonstrates our foolhardy and extravagant sentimentalism ...
[Philanthropists] encourage the healthier and more normal sections of the
world to shoulder the burden of unthinking and indiscriminate fecundity of
others; which brings with it, as I think the reader must agree, a dead
weight of human waste. Instead of decreasing and aiming to eliminate the
stocks that are most detrimental to the future of the race and the world,
it tends to render them to a menacing degree dominant ... We are paying
for, and even submitting to, the dictates of an ever-increasing,
unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born
at all."
-- Margaret Sanger. The Pivot of Civilization , 1922. Chapter on "The
Cruelty of Charity," pages 116, 122, and 189. Swarthmore College Library
edition.
"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population
their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization."
-- Margaret Sanger, April 1932 Birth Control Review .
"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."
-- Margaret Sanger. Woman, Morality, and Birth Control . New York: New
York Publishing Company, 1922. Page 12.
"[Slavs, Latin, and Hebrew immigrants are] human weeds ... a
deadweight of human waste ... [Blacks, soldiers, and Jews are a] menace to
the race."
"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent
Multiplication of this bad stock."
-- Margaret Sanger, April 1933 Birth Control Review .
"[Our objective is] unlimited sexual gratification without the burden
of unwanted children ... [Women must have the right] to live ... to love
... to be lazy ... to be an unmarried mother ... to create ... to destroy
... The marriage bed is the most degenerative influence in the social order
... The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members
is to kill it."
-- Margaret Sanger (editor). The Woman Rebel , Volume I, Number 1.
Reprinted in Woman and the New Race . New York: Brentanos Publishers,
1922.
Perry
03-15-2009, 07:05 PM
^^ So what?? Corn flakes were originally made because the Kellogg brothers thought they made people stop enjoying sex - but we still eat them. Walt Disney was a bigot, but we still watch The Little Mermaid and Wall-E with our kids. Bill Watson was a rapist, but people still go to AA.
Just because a founder is messed up doesn't mean their organization can't get good results out of bad intentions.
pixierocksonthepole
03-15-2009, 07:14 PM
Wow this thread has gone all over the board I thought it was about the article. Then Nazi's? And on and on and on and on. I don't agree with what the Catholic Church is doing about the situation from their standpoint, but lets stay on topic of the article not everything else within the radius of having children. Bringing up Nazi's was very stupid.
glambman
03-15-2009, 07:27 PM
^^ So what?? Corn flakes were originally made because the Kellogg brothers thought they made people stop enjoying sex - but we still eat them. Walt Disney was a bigot, but we still watch The Little Mermaid and Wall-E with our kids. Bill Watson was a rapist, but people still go to AA.
Just because a founder is messed up doesn't mean their organization can't get good results out of bad intentions.
Corn Flakes: Corn Flakes were originally non sweetened. Kellogg believed that sugar was unhealthy and associated with vice and degeneracy. It was not to stop sex, but stop inflaming it. At least he got one out of three reaosons correct.
Walt Disney: While people have said many things (like he was anti-Semitic), they have not provided evidence. Anyone can say anything, as they have, but they've failed to back it up with factual proof.
Ya mean Bill Wilson: He did have a sexual addiction and was a Casanova, but where is rape?
Let's say the Klan today has a 4th evolution, instead of its legacy, it becomes a white version of the NAACP. Are you going to schange your views of them? I'm not, because they were founded of racism and hate.
eagle2
03-15-2009, 07:32 PM
The United States was founded by racists who considered blacks to be nothing more than property. I guess that makes the United States evil according to your logic.
glambman
03-15-2009, 07:34 PM
The United States was founded by racists who considered blacks to be nothing more than property. I guess that makes the United States evil according to your logic.
Actually, quiet a number of our founders were opposed to slavery, but knew it would prevent our nation from being united. They also knew that it's day was coming to an end.
Eric Stoner
03-16-2009, 08:33 AM
It's not only whether or not there's sex ed, or pills, or condoms, or any other pregnancy prevention out there to help someone not get pregnant. It's the circumstances to which a baby may be born. It's the quality of life that baby may have. It's weighing all options and knowing the outcome wont be good for mother or child if the pregnancy isn't terminanted. You as a male, can not possibly know what a female may go through during a pregnancy. Thank god there are still ppl out there who recognize a woman's right to choice. That is what it means to be pro-choice. It means, women get to choose, regardless of whether or not other ppl agree, I get to choose what happens to me, my body and my child. You have no idea what may constitute a woman's decision to end a pregnancy, and since you can't possibly ever know, you really can't pass judgement or even truly have an opinion. Until you walk in someone elses shoes you can never know their motivations, especially since you can't ever find yourself pregnant.
Pure unadulterated emotional and illogical drivel. Why stop at abortion? Why not euthanize born children who are guaranteed a poor quality of life ?
I'm NOT talking about pregnancies where the mother's life or health are seriously impacted. Afaic, THAT is MEDICAL justification. And I'm NOT an absolutist fanatic and see nothing wrong with "morning after " pills and the like.
Let me put it this way, WHERE do your "choices" end and RESPONSIBILITIES begin ? What about YOUR responsibility NOT to get pregnant if you can't handle the pregnancy or properly rear a child ?
Eric Stoner
03-16-2009, 08:35 AM
When should pregnancy ever be a "punishment?"
In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.
I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.
Eric Stoner
03-16-2009, 08:43 AM
And by the way, as a friend of mine who came over to visit just pointed out...what exactly is "medical" about this? The fetus that is conceived in rape is not necessarily any less healthy, or any more of a strain on the woman's body, than the fetus that was conceived during consensual sex. You're making a judgement, and that's fine, but there's nothing "medical" about it.
We have to draw lines. That is the essence of a civilized and civil society.
There IS a medical aspect as for nine months the victim has to carry the product of the attack. Logic alone says that it might retard the healing process and there are other possible medical reasons to remove such a fetus. Of course, the victim is free to decide to go through with the pregnancy, if that's what she wants to do. In cases of incest, we ALL should hope there is an abortion. Do we really need to voluntarily supply ourselves with more imbeciles ?
Eric Stoner
03-16-2009, 08:52 AM
i would take the pro life movement a lot more seriously if it adressed the causes and consequences of uwanted pregnancy in a constructive way instead of constantly criticizing women for getting pregnant.
within the pro life movement their tends to be a huge issue with sex ed and birth control and we all know how effective "abstinence only" sex ed is, lol. the ones who pay for this are the women who accidentally get pregnant, not the men they had sex with.
also, as said before in this thread there is an almost total lack of concern for the baby once it is born. maybe instead of picketing abortion clinics and lecturing women, pro-lifers should put that energy into creating group homes for unwanted babies, organising adoption programs or actually adopting themselves.
This is a FAIR argument and one of my own pet peeves with the CC and Religious Right.
Abstinence Only has been thoroughly documented to be a total and complete failure. The U.S. is a joke compared to the rest of the developed world when it comes to rate of out of wedlock birth. We need MORE sex-ed and MORE birth control. Not less.
Some "Pro-Lifers" do put their money where their mouth is and do support programs that help unwed mothers. Some also adopt themselves.
eagle2
03-16-2009, 08:57 AM
In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.
I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.
Those evil women! Imagine, having sex! We must teach them a lesson!
eagle2
03-16-2009, 09:03 AM
Actually, quiet a number of our founders were opposed to slavery, but knew it would prevent our nation from being united. They also knew that it's day was coming to an end.
The father of our country, George Washington, advocated slavery and was a slave-holder himself. So was Thomas Jefferson.
At the time our country was founded, nobody knew slavery was coming to end.
As Pixie said, this thread has gone all over the board. We're discussing the Catholic Church's reaction to a 9 year old rape victim getting an abortion. Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood have nothing to do with this.
Eric Stoner
03-16-2009, 09:36 AM
Those evil women! Imagine, having sex! We must teach them a lesson!
NO. I am talking about foolish and careless people of BOTH sexes having UNPROTECTED sex. Afaic the men are just as responsible as the women.
In what other aspect of life are you willing to permit careless people to avoid the consequences of their mistakes ? People who fail to wear seat belts can be barred from recovering damages if they are injured in auto accidents. What about people who drink and drive ? How about cell phone talkers who get into auto accidents ?
A HARVARD University Study confirmed by a PRINCETON University study ( two hotbeds of right wing conservative thought and scholarship ) have shown that the primary cause of poverty in the U.S. is UNWED motherhood. The rate of out of wedlock birth continues to climb. For African American women it is up to 70%.
What do you think explains that ? How about social acceptance ? Deemphasizing shame DOES have some negative consequences.
I am NOT arguing for the forced wearing of "Scarlet Letters" or bringing back involuntary confinement to "Homes for Unwed Mothers".
Eric Stoner
03-16-2009, 09:43 AM
The father of our country, George Washington, advocated slavery and was a slave-holder himself. So was Thomas Jefferson.
At the time our country was founded, nobody knew slavery was coming to end.
As Pixie said, this thread has gone all over the board. We're discussing the Catholic Church's reaction to a 9 year old rape victim getting an abortion. Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood have nothing to do with this.
Jefferson was NOT present when our Constitution was written. He was in Paris.
Washington, M A D I S O N , Mason and even Franklin all took a dive on slavery.
Some of them even knew they were leaving a ticking time bomb behind by not advocating abolition and so providing in the Constitution. At the time, support for slavery in the South had NOT hardened and strengthened as it would just a generation later. Many Northern states still permitted slavery ( N.Y. & N.J. ). Cotton was not yet "King" in the South. We were not yet the prime supplier of cotton to Great Britain and France. Most Southerners and in fact the overwhelming majority of Americans did NOT own slaves. Abolition would have affected very few Americans directly in 1789.
Perry
03-16-2009, 12:02 PM
I hope you pro lifers never get a tape worm! I mean, it's alive, it's healthy and you should have taken responsibility and not eaten under cooked food. It's a punishment for being so careless and eating without proper precautions, which is about as natural as sex after all. You'd be lucky really, it's never going to come out of your body and expect love and financial support or anything.
But seriously, I'm 16 weeks pregnant myself and that's pretty much what it feels like. It's more like a medical condition than having a living human being just hanging out in my body waiting to be born. It was planned, and I want it and all, but it's kind of a parasite. A cute one, but still it doesn't have any right to be in me if I don't want it there.
For the men folk that will never have the privilege of being pregnant, let me explain. Human females don't just lay an egg and walk away. It's 9 months of being in a serious medical condition that ranges from being inconvenient at best, and painful at worst. Nausea, vomiting, constipation, back pain, swelling, mood swings and so on. For any other ailment you would get treatment that ended those symptoms. It's not like it's an easy state to be in. And then there's the whole body distortion, that ends some careers - or just the new limitations that make it impossible to continue with some others. There's a reason to end any pregnancy.
As for the rest of this off topic non sense, PP prevents many abortions with access to birth control. And they help women who need them with access to them. I don't care if the founder drowned kittens everyday, she still had a good idea that helped people. Maybe the inventor of penicillin had actually intended to use it as a weapon of biological warfare, doesn't change that he did a good thing in a round about way.
And with all that, I'm going to rage quit this thread, lol. I'll probably want to take my parasite comment back after I see the first ultrasound on Friday, or feel that first kick. But, I'm in a different situation after all - it's a wanted pregnancy. And every one of them should be. Kudos to the mom of the 9 year old, she did the right thing and protected her child. It's not like churches have bouncers, they can still go to mass and be Catholic even if one old dude doesn't think so.
glambman
03-16-2009, 12:44 PM
I hope you pro lifers never get a tape worm! I mean, it's alive, it's healthy and you should have taken responsibility and not eaten under cooked food. It's a punishment for being so careless and eating without proper precautions, which is about as natural as sex after all. You'd be lucky really, it's never going to come out of your body and expect love and financial support or anything.
A tapeworm is a parasite in the body, a child is not.
For the men folk that will never have the privilege of being pregnant, let me explain. Human females don't just lay an egg and walk away. It's 9 months of being in a serious medical condition that ranges from being inconvenient at best, and painful at worst. Nausea, vomiting, constipation, back pain, swelling, mood swings and so on. For any other ailment you would get treatment that ended those symptoms. It's not like it's an easy state to be in. And then there's the whole body distortion, that ends some careers - or just the new limitations that make it impossible to continue with some others. There's a reason to end any pregnancy.
Since we are just animals, there are a number of animals where the male takes care of the "eggs" to birth. Sea horses, Antarctic breed of penguins. So, by default. ;)
A pregnancy is not an ailment.
Maybe the inventor of penicillin had actually intended to use it as a weapon of biological warfare, doesn't change that he did a good thing in a round about way.
Penicillin was actually discovered by accident. A scientist noticed a mold that was inhibiting fungus, he studied it further. Nothing illicit about it.
And with all that, I'm going to rage quit this thread, lol. I'll probably want to take my parasite comment back after I see the first ultrasound on Friday, or feel that first kick. But, I'm in a different situation after all -
Do you know if your going to get a 4d sonogram? Awesome they are.
Perry
03-16-2009, 12:56 PM
^^ I'm just getting the standard one this time to check for twins and make sure everything is going well. Most hospitals don't do 3 or 4 ds, they're actually way more powerful which is a concern. But I'm going to a place that does them anyway when I get far along enough to tell the sex. And so my mom and Mr. Perry can tag along and cry, lol.
But, this time I mean it, RAGE QUIT! :P
glambman
03-16-2009, 01:03 PM
I am a 1 of 2 (twin sis), and I was hiding when they did the ultrasound. I'm sure the technology has improves greatly since then. ;)
Eric Stoner
03-18-2009, 11:00 AM
Proving that he is, if nothing else, consistent, Pope Benedict has stated that condoms are NOT the answer in helping to control AIDS in Africa. Worse yet, he said they were "NOT effective".
His first statement was just plain unrealistic. The second was just plain WRONG !
Crow2
03-18-2009, 11:17 AM
In Brazil, a 9 year old girl was repeatedly raped by her stepfather and as a result, became pregnant. The girl's mother took her to a hospital for an abortion. The Catholic Church's response was to excommunicate the girl's mother and doctor for the abortion, even though the girl could have died if she were to carry the babies (twins) to full term. While the church excommunicated the mother and doctor, they did not excommunicate the stepfather who raped the girl, since his crime was not as "heinous", according to the church.
This event ( and that's the nicest word I can find ) is beyond unspeakable.
A nine year old GIRL.. a child, not a woman. With her own mind, her own experience. A child.
No matter what your views are on the subject of abortion and the right to it. This seriously jacked up situation is simply put wrong.
Again and again the Church.. Whom is suppose to be stability for faith is crumbling. Catholics everywhere should be appalled at these recent actions.
There is a reason the Mother Church is called the "great whore."
Mr. Glambman,
If I seem a bit emotional you will have to forgive me. I could only get to about the 4th page or so on my blackberry before your willful ignorance and chovanism almost brought me to tears. I'm so pissed I could spit fire right now. The thing is that I agree with you when you say abortion is unnessacery in todays age because of the morning after pill and all... But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body! There is nothing equal about baby making to begin with. And because you're an uncle (so is my 14 year old brother) / babysitter you know nothing about being a parent. You have no right to put your 2 cent in. These girls are talking about the physical aspects of parenting what about the emotional and finanicals part that go with the physical. I could never imagine myself having an abortion but to look down on somebody without trying to understand their side is just as wrong.
As a black woman or a woman period I have seen far too many men get up and walk away from babies and mothers. My own father owes upwards of $70000 for his 2 kids both in our 20s. He'll tell you himself he hasn't paid child support since the early 90s. My daughters father only paid for child care and provided insurance. Why don't you do some research at least before you open your mouth. Of course you not having to supply anything of this nature that would sound ok to you. Why don't you do some math 800 dollars isn't shit when child care is 600 a month! Pull ups come less then 10 a bag and are about $10. An emergancy room visit is $100 dollars after insurence is paid for. School supplies, food,clothes,toys, doctors visits etc. I know there are also single fathers out there but its hard for a couple to raise a child how dare you complain about what someone wants to go through when you've never experienced it yourself. Have you ever heard of the baby blues (post pardum depression) women kill their child when they can't handle the pressure or maybe they should donate more kids to the wonderful world of foster care and pray they get adapted by a family that's not in it for the$$$. You know you strike me as the type to shake your finger at mothers on welfare without looking at their situation as well. You seem like those old people stuck in their ways and no matter what you say they're right and you're wrong so I'll calm down now because its a waste of time explaining to you.
Before I go I will say I don't understand women who have 3 5+ abortions its not suppose to be a form of birth control but I'm not looking down on them I just don't understand and maybe somebody can explain their situation to me.
glambman
03-18-2009, 05:23 PM
You in italics.
before your willful ignorance and chovanism almost brought me to tears. I'm so pissed I could spit fire right now.
Ignorance and chauvinism......lol That's not me.
[i]The thing is that I agree with you when you say abortion is unnessacery in todays age because of the morning after pill and all...
I didn't say that (Eric did), but I agree with the sentiment.
But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body!
This is where technicalities come into play....If I am going to be supporting them (through taxes or otherwise), then I do.
There is nothing equal about baby making to begin with.
I never said there was anything equal, just that it takes two to Tango.
And because you're an uncle (so is my 14 year old brother) / babysitter you know nothing about being a parent. You have no right to put your 2 cent in. These girls are talking about the physical aspects of parenting what about the emotional and finanicals part that go with the physical.
Just an Uncle/ babysitter? You didn't read what I said. I have physically, emotionally, and financially provided for her, since birth.
but to look down on somebody without trying to understand their side is just as wrong.
I never said anything of the sort.
As a black woman or a woman period I have seen far too many men get up and walk away from babies and mothers.
As an old white man, I have also seen people leave (male and female).
Have you ever heard of the baby blues (post pardum depression) women kill their child when they can't handle the pressure or maybe
And you can get depression by having a bad diet as well as a million other things. Some people can't handle it coming from any of those things, and do extreme things, doesn't make it the standard.
they should donate more kids to the wonderful world of foster care and pray they get adapted by a family that's not in it for the$$$.
Our Federal Govt spends more money for children on foster care, so that's where the state sends the kids (and has an incentive to keep them there).
You know you strike me as the type to shake your finger at mothers on welfare without looking at their situation as well.
Nope, but I have seen first hand the ones that "use" the system.
You seem like those old people stuck in their ways and no matter what you say they're right and you're wrong so I'll calm down now because its a waste of time explaining to you.
Stuck in my ways...sure. Right no matter what...nope (I was wrong once when I thought I was wrong). ;D
eagle2
03-18-2009, 10:20 PM
But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body!
This is where technicalities come into play....If I am going to be supporting them (through taxes or otherwise), then I do.
How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.
Dirty Ernie
03-18-2009, 11:12 PM
And since glambman's tax dollars are used to fund the military, I guess he demands a direct line to the Pentagon, too? Even more directly, since you are providing emotional and financial support to your niece, do you insist on dictating to her mother unsolicited rules by which she must be raised?
pixierocksonthepole
03-19-2009, 12:11 AM
How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.
I was going to ask the same exact thing here. I have had 2 abortions. One medical and one surgical. I paid for them in full out of my own pocket. I donated money to the cause for women to have these rights. I fought on the sides of women that need medical care like this even if they pay for it themselves.
So no, you don't have the right to tell someone what to do with their body. Women are now having complete medical rights that they need even in situations like this. And I will fight people like you that want to control what women do with their bodies or feel they have "the right" to say what they can and can't do.
Freedom isn't free but damn it we fight really hard for what we have, and as a woman - I will never give up the fight.
glambman
03-19-2009, 08:37 AM
How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.
And since glambman's tax dollars are used to fund the military, I guess he demands a direct line to the Pentagon, too? Even more directly, since you are providing emotional and financial support to your niece, do you insist on dictating to her mother unsolicited rules by which she must be raised?
Abortion is a separate issue. Electing officials who put stipulations/ restrictions on govt funding (like no cigs and alkie with food stamps).
No I don't, but if she were being raised like other kids out there (even some of her friends), damn right I would step in.
Ms. Mia Roberts
03-19-2009, 09:01 AM
I don't think abortion should be the issue that it is right now. There is too much grey area.
I feel that a fetus is just a fetus, and until it develops a certain amount... it is not a baby.
Maybe by saying that, i sound cruel... but there should be no grey matter in deciding whats right about abortion or whats wrong.
It doesn't matter if the woman is raped or it is consensual, if they decided to terminate thier pregnancy before the fetus becomes developed, they should have the right to do so.
and as for the "tax" dollars that some people on this forum are so worried about. It costs 500 dollars to give a woman an abortion. It costs 100 times that much to put a child in the system... and it's still your tax dollars
and then live with it on your conscious (or not...depending on what type of person you are) that you advocated putting thousands more children into the system where they will have a very high chance of being raped and abused...
Eric Stoner
03-19-2009, 09:10 AM
How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.
Depends where you live. Some states subsidize them or subsidize groups that help pay for them. Most do not. The Feds won't pay for them UNLESS they are MEDICALLY necessary.
Eric Stoner
03-19-2009, 09:43 AM
Mr. Glambman,
If I seem a bit emotional you will have to forgive me. I could only get to about the 4th page or so on my blackberry before your willful ignorance and chovanism almost brought me to tears. I'm so pissed I could spit fire right now. The thing is that I agree with you when you say abortion is unnessacery in todays age because of the morning after pill and all... But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body! There is nothing equal about baby making to begin with. And because you're an uncle (so is my 14 year old brother) / babysitter you know nothing about being a parent. You have no right to put your 2 cent in. These girls are talking about the physical aspects of parenting what about the emotional and finanicals part that go with the physical. I could never imagine myself having an abortion but to look down on somebody without trying to understand their side is just as wrong.
As a black woman or a woman period I have seen far too many men get up and walk away from babies and mothers. My own father owes upwards of $70000 for his 2 kids both in our 20s. He'll tell you himself he hasn't paid child support since the early 90s. My daughters father only paid for child care and provided insurance. Why don't you do some research at least before you open your mouth. Of course you not having to supply anything of this nature that would sound ok to you. Why don't you do some math 800 dollars isn't shit when child care is 600 a month! Pull ups come less then 10 a bag and are about $10. An emergancy room visit is $100 dollars after insurence is paid for. School supplies, food,clothes,toys, doctors visits etc. I know there are also single fathers out there but its hard for a couple to raise a child how dare you complain about what someone wants to go through when you've never experienced it yourself. Have you ever heard of the baby blues (post pardum depression) women kill their child when they can't handle the pressure or maybe they should donate more kids to the wonderful world of foster care and pray they get adapted by a family that's not in it for the$$$. You know you strike me as the type to shake your finger at mothers on welfare without looking at their situation as well. You seem like those old people stuck in their ways and no matter what you say they're right and you're wrong so I'll calm down now because its a waste of time explaining to you.
Before I go I will say I don't understand women who have 3 5+ abortions its not suppose to be a form of birth control but I'm not looking down on them I just don't understand and maybe somebody can explain their situation to me.
I don't know about Glamb bit I am FAR from an absolutist. One reason I take the position I do is to counter the "any abortion, at any time, for any reason" extremists. Afaic, THEY are supporting infanticide.
I'm probably going to surprise you and perhaps some others by saying that I do NOT care all that much about the "fetuses" as I do about society as a whole. Tolerating unecessary abortions makes us tolerant of other practices and procedures that cheapen LIFE. It never ceases to amaze me that some of the most virulent abortion opponents rabidly support the death penalty.
If we could all agree or at least agree to abide a reasonably arbitrary line for abortions like permitting them during the First Trimester, I could go along with it. Just for the sake of domestic political peace. So could the overwhelming majority of Americans who recognize the issue as having a lot more nuance than most politicos in Washington. The trouble is we've let the extremists on BOTH sides drive the debate and they control the political endorsements and THE MONEY.
In their heart of hearts, many Congressmen and Senators would try to find a reasonable compromise IF they could survive it politically. Unfortunately, almost no Democrat dares to defy P.P. , NARAL or NOW and no Republican dares to run counter to the CC or other religious Right to Lifers. On the other hand , there are also some who love to let the issue fester so that they can assume the role of "champion" of one side or the other. In other words, they NEVER want the issue resolved. They always want it out there.
In the developed world we are the ONLY country that let it's elected political representatives take a dive on the issue. We let the Supreme Court decide it instead of the Congress and the state legislatures. Abortion is NOT the issue in other countries that it is here because ELECTED representatives decided the issue, not unelected judges.
Much of your post supports MY argument that abortion is an easy "out" for irresponsible men. How you can you justify abortion because some men are Deadbeat Dads ? How would like it if one of these guys forced a woman to have an abortion who didn't want one ? Been known to happen. There are now Federal Laws that enforce child-support obligations.
Elvia
03-20-2009, 01:48 AM
In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.
I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.
THANK GOD we have these thoughtful men around to keep us from missing out on a valuable learning experience, huh ladies? ::)
And here I thought raising a child in poverty was a bad thing! Little did I know that was denying myself a valuable learning opportunity.
Crow2
03-20-2009, 08:30 AM
In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.
I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.
I raised four kids, by myself. Thankyouveryfuckingmuch... and yes, I learned quite a bit. About men.
And thanks! For the willingness to not let rape victims not be pregnant.
That's big of you...
So now I know my choices are set.