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jack0177057
04-24-2009, 08:17 AM
I have to agree with this. I would totally dissociate when I was working. For instance, maybe a loved one died shortly before I had to go to work. By the time I hit the floor, I was all smiles and acting horny to get the dances. When the hair and makeup came off at home, I'd fall apart emotionally. Male dancers do this too, so it isn't limited to women only. I believe this is common to anyone who spends a lot of time in the public eye: dancers, actors, politicians or school teachers, soldiers, doctors, police officers, slaughter house employees and prison guards need to compartmentalize as well, to be successful. Those who can't wash out pretty quickly.

The FANTASY for YOU is what makes YOU go back... Not the money itself, but what you imagine doing with the money... buying a nice car and seeing yourself driving it down the street, paying your college tuition and seeing yourself holding a diploma on graduation day, buying a house and seeing yourself proudly decorating it, helping family members or friends, etc... I can't imagine you putting yourself through all this, unless there was a fantasy of some nice reward later for all your labor...

Earl_the_Pearl
04-24-2009, 08:18 AM
..........money=honey............
If that were only true.



First make youself presentable, like you are going on a date (take a shower, change your shorts&socks, put on deordorant, shave, brush teeth, get out clean clothes, etc)

Second, have an attitude of fun for you and for the stripper. And if she's having a bad night (not from dealing with you), try to help lighten and liven.

That's YOUR work. Have a fantastic time.
Bathe yes but if a stripper is having a bad night tip one that isn't. Don't fall in love it is a business. Never forget it is a business.

Hopper
05-07-2009, 03:01 AM
OP-


Every other thread in CC has something about "the fantasy", "maintaining the fantasy", "blowing the fantasy", "remember it's all a fantasy", etc.

I'm not sure what "the fantasy" being referred to is. I go to clubs for the reality, not the fantasy. The reality of young attractive women. The reality of seeing them naked. The reality of engaging in pleasant conversation. The reality (I live in very high contact country) of tits and ass and tummies and smalls of backs, like nothing else in the world.

All these are very real. The fact that I pay for them, doesn't make them any less real. You pay for a car you couldn't get otherwise...yet it's still real.

I don't get what "the fantasy" is.

I agree. I go to SCs for the real things too - looking and touching. I go in there "eyes wide open" (no jokes), fully aware of the reality behind the facade. That reality is actually part of what interests me about SCs.

However, even though I don't believe them, I still enjoy the acting, performances, hospitality and setting. I enjoy the fantasy element even though I don't believe it. A fantasy is something you don't believe in (normally), and nobody in the SC expects you to (except that the girls would like you to be that dumb).

The fantasy part of SCs is that they are acting out male fantasies - doing things they wouldn't do OTC: wearing g-strings and negligees, dancing and stripping, dancing naked on your lap and letting you touch them, chatting and being nice to you whether they like you or not.

I agree with you that it is all real - a real performance, real costumes, (physically) real girls, real hospitality. If it weren't, why would you pay for it? It is not either a fantasy or real, it is both - it's a real enactment of a fantasy. The fantasy of SCs is what is beig acted out in them for you.

We know we are not really on the planet of strippers, yet the performances and costumes etc. still stimiulate our sexual fantasies, as they are intended to. It's an adult game both the dancers and the patrons play.

A_Guy
05-07-2009, 05:31 AM
I get what you're saying Everyman, but come on - this is common sense.

The reality is that you are in a club, with hot, naked women walking around willing to rub their naked bodies against you.

Yes you are awake, yes the chair you are sitting on is real, and yes, the hot naked butt clapping in front of your face is, in reality, a physical object composed of a complex mix of electrons, protons and neutrons.

also - yes, you're spending all your hard earned cash whether you like it or not ;)

The fantasy is equally as simple - there are hot, naked women blah blah blah... and so on. There is no other place you are going to find an environment like this. You can't walk into your local grocery store and expect hot women to start griding on you in the dairy section, now can you? At least not where I'm from. That's why you pay to go to a strip club and have conversations and get dances. i.e. fantasy.

Strip clubs exist for two reasons - - making money and fulfilling a man's fantasy. Whether that fantasy is simple (talking and getting dances from hot naked women, like in your case), or fairly strange.


Either way my man, we're talking semantics here.

jennahoff
05-07-2009, 11:55 AM
This is a long thread. cant believe it sparked so much interest.
it goes like this tho, if your willin to spend, most are willing to take.
no need to analyze further.

Hopper
05-08-2009, 01:24 AM
The fantasy is that you can walk into a business and pay a woman to see her naked. Try doing that in the supermarket. I guarantee it won't go over well. The fantasy is the atmosphere. The fantasy is the young, hot girl that's made it her business to be all over you. The fantasy is that she'll be whatever you need her to be to make you feel good and to get your money. And it's the fantasy that she creates that keeps you spending that money on her. If she's good at her job, you'll leave feeling like a million bucks and dying for more, and she'll leave with every dime you walked in with.

There is no reality in SC's. Yes, we are real ppl. You will really see us naked, you can really feel our skin, backs etc. but don't for one second think that anything you're getting is real. Not the name, not the personality, not any line that we feed you in order to get you to spend. We say what you want to hear. We act how you want us to act. We are very good at picking up on what a guy wants, and we try very hard to be that for you. We walk ITC and turn on <insert stripper name here> and we are her, til we leave.

Pretty big "if" in my experience. I pay for what I want, not sweet-talk. I can do everything I want and am allowed to do in 20 minutes of LD, though I'd do it for longer if I weren't paying - I don't need to spend more. I can get better conversation OTC. I know it's fake (though an enjoyable fantasy) so I don't get taken in by that.

JayATee
05-08-2009, 01:38 AM
Pretty big "if" in my experience. I pay for what I want, not sweet-talk. I can do everything I want and am allowed to do in 20 minutes of LD, though I'd do it for longer if I weren't paying - I don't need to spend more. I can get better conversation OTC. I know it's fake (though an enjoyable fantasy) so I don't get taken in by that.

And? What's your point? You're still paying for the fantasy regardless of whether or not it's a big if in your opinion.

And you do pay for "sweet-talk" somewhat. If the dancer tells you she thinks you're disgusting and she's only getting that close bc you're paying her to that would kinda kill the mood. "Sweet-talk" isn't necessarily "talk" at all.

Not to mention, why bother going at all if it doesn't make you feel good in some fashion or other?

Hopper
05-08-2009, 02:23 AM
And? What's your point? You're still paying for the fantasy regardless of whether or not it's a big if in your opinion.

And you do pay for "sweet-talk" somewhat. If the dancer tells you she thinks you're disgusting and she's only getting that close bc you're paying her to that would kinda kill the mood. "Sweet-talk" isn't necessarily "talk" at all.

Yes I'm paying for fantasy, but there is a limit to how much. You are a gorgeous and enchanting girl I am sure, but if you think I'm going to empty my bank account onto you at your club then it's your fantasy. Just because I like entertainment doesn't mean I have no self-respect. If I want more, I'll look for it OTC as nature intended.

The "if" I was talking about is that most dancers I've met have not been good enough at their job - or even attractive enough - to take all my money. Some patrons either hold on to money less tightly than I do or are willing to indulge themselves more than I do. Or are more easily impressed. Still, it's not just because of how good you are at taking money, but because of how stupid the customer is.

Regarding sweet-talk, it's enough for me that the girl is being more-or-less herself (preferably in a sexy manner) and merely not letting on that she dislikes either me (if she does) or what she is doing. I don't need her to pretend to like me, since I wouldn't believe it - there's no way to tell. But I would still go along with it as an amusing fantasy.

What I meant by saying I don't pay for sweet-talk is that I'm there to get what want and I won't be sweet-talked into thinking I'llget any more than that if I pay more. Yes I like - even expect - the sweet-talk, but it doesn't sway me beyond making like you more.

You dancers are doing basically the same thing anyone in hospitality does. A waiter at a restaurant does not tell you that he is only being nice to you and bringing your food because he is paid to. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't say so. Waiters are paid to serve food, you are paid to lapdance.

Who in or out of hospitality automatically tells anybody he doesn't like him? Often we are nice to people we don't like, and even pretend to like them to a degree. That's just normal courtesy. It's also done out of self-interest, since it benefits us to ingratiate ourselves to others - as it does you with your customers.

Christyismyalias
05-08-2009, 03:06 AM
The fantasy is summarized as this: 100% attraction, 100% sexual arousal, 0% drama and 0% complexity.

That is the best explanation I have ever heard... Well said. :):)

JayATee
05-08-2009, 12:35 PM
Yes I'm paying for fantasy, but there is a limit to how much. You are a gorgeous and enchanting girl I am sure, but if you think I'm going to empty my bank account onto you at your club then it's your fantasy. Just because I like entertainment doesn't mean I have no self-respect. If I want more, I'll look for it OTC as nature intended.

The "if" I was talking about is that most dancers I've met have not been good enough at their job - or even attractive enough - to take all my money. Some patrons either hold on to money less tightly than I do or are willing to indulge themselves more than I do. Or are more easily impressed. Still, it's not just because of how good you are at taking money, but because of how stupid the customer is.

Regarding sweet-talk, it's enough for me that the girl is being more-or-less herself (preferably in a sexy manner) and merely not letting on that she dislikes either me (if she does) or what she is doing. I don't need her to pretend to like me, since I wouldn't believe it - there's no way to tell. But I would still go along with it as an amusing fantasy.

What I meant by saying I don't pay for sweet-talk is that I'm there to get what want and I won't be sweet-talked into thinking I'llget any more than that if I pay more. Yes I like - even expect - the sweet-talk, but it doesn't sway me beyond making like you more.

You dancers are doing basically the same thing anyone in hospitality does. A waiter at a restaurant does not tell you that he is only being nice to you and bringing your food because he is paid to. If he doesn't like you, he doesn't say so. Waiters are paid to serve food, you are paid to lapdance.

Who in or out of hospitality automatically tells anybody he doesn't like him? Often we are nice to people we don't like, and even pretend to like them to a degree. That's just normal courtesy. It's also done out of self-interest, since it benefits us to ingratiate ourselves to others - as it does you with your customers.

Sure a waiter doesn't tell you he doesn't like you bc he's paid to serve food. Equating stripping to being the same is ridiculous. A waiter doesn't sit on your lap, he doesn't grind on you. It's not the waiter's job to be as close to you as he possibly can be regardless of what you look or smell like.

You're taking issue with one particular sentence, which, if that's how you feel that's how you feel. Lots of guys come in that do leave feeling like that. I have had guys come in that spent every dollar they had on me and went back to the atm for more. I've also had my regs call me up and leave me messages thanking me for making their week better. It's all relative.

jack0177057
05-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Sure a waiter doesn't tell you he doesn't like you bc he's paid to serve food. Equating stripping to being the same is ridiculous. A waiter doesn't sit on your lap, he doesn't grind on you. It's not the waiter's job to be as close to you as he possibly can be regardless of what you look or smell like.

You're taking issue with one particular sentence, which, if that's not how you feel that's not how you feel. Lots of guys come in that do leave feeling like that. I have had guys come in that spent every dollar they had on me and went back to the atm for more. I've also had my regs call me up and leave me messages thanking me for making their week better. It's all relative.

I agree with you JayATee,... any man who says he's not paying for the sweet talk is lying and/or deceiving himself... The male ego is fragile, and worst yet, it is constantly under attack... The "obedient and devoted" wife or girlfriend used to be our source for a fast-and-easy ego-boost, but feminism has now turned her into our equal, our competitor,... and ... our critiquer... Now, instead of boosting our ego, she is deflating it half the time, even unwittingly...

So,... the SC is the last place on earth where any loser with a wounded ego can receive instant ego-therapy. Despite his loser status everywhere else, he is treated like a winner in the SC (as long as he carries some cash with him)... It's not JUST about tits-and-ass,... NOTHING boosts a male-ego more than a hot young semi-naked girl flirting with and sweet-talking him... Women have shop-therapy to cope with self-esteem and deflated-ego issues,... us men have stripper-therapy...

commanderadama
05-08-2009, 09:35 PM
I agree with you JayATee,... any man who says he's not paying for the sweet talk is lying and/or deceiving himself... The male ego is fragile, and worst yet, it is constantly under attack... The "obedient and devoted" wife or girlfriend used to be our source for a fast-and-easy ego-boost, but feminism has now turned her into our equal, our competitor,... and ... our critiquer... Now, instead of boosting our ego, she is deflating it half the time, even unwittingly...

So,... the SC is the last place on earth where any loser with a wounded ego can receive instant ego-therapy. Despite his loser status everywhere else, he is treated like a winner in the SC (as long as he carries some cash with him)... It's not JUST about tits-and-ass,... NOTHING boosts a male-ego more than a hot young semi-naked girl flirting with and sweet-talking him... Women have shop-therapy to cope with self-esteem and deflated-ego issues,... us men have stripper-therapy...

No dude, you need a professional psychiatrist ;D

You don't even know you're a misogynist. Everyone's ego is fragile, men and women alike. If you need praise you're still a child, adults boost their own egos my friend. Children need sponsors. Read the words of the wise Black Widow on this BBS. Most of us actually go for the tits and the ass. :P

Hopper
05-08-2009, 10:25 PM
Sure a waiter doesn't tell you he doesn't like you bc he's paid to serve food. Equating stripping to being the same is ridiculous. A waiter doesn't sit on your lap, he doesn't grind on you. It's not the waiter's job to be as close to you as he possibly can be regardless of what you look or smell like.

You're taking issue with one particular sentence, which, if that's how you feel that's how you feel. Lots of guys come in that do leave feeling like that. I have had guys come in that spent every dollar they had on me and went back to the atm for more. I've also had my regs call me up and leave me messages thanking me for making their week better. It's all relative.

Not saying stripping is the same as waiting, just that the reason neither complains is because they are paid not to. My point is really the one you made yourself earlier when arguing the opposite POV: The dancer is happy to be on my lap because she is paid to - it's her job. It's so obvious and basic that neither of us should have to point it out to the other.

Okay so there are guys who pay lots for pampering - it's their business. But I was saying to you that most of the dancers in the SCs I've been to have not been as good at it as you appear to be and don't even try. Many of them are duplicitous when it suits them, but most of them show their real selves very often - some the whole time. I would not expect any guy to be under any illusions for very long at the clubs I've been to.

I'd like it if the dancers at the clubs I go to were like you and would probably spend more on them if they were. I'd enjoy that sort of experience and interaction. I used to wish that SCs provided a more convincing fantasy show, but the reality falls short. Perhaps that's because so many guys don't know how to play along nice and don't pay enough, so that the girls are going too far out on a limb with no incentive. Most managements don't have that kind of class either. Occasionally though I do meet a dancer who can nicely maintain a congenial and sexy persona - a girl who plays the game.

But generally for me it's about the physical intimacy, the setting, the atmosphere, the interaction such as it is and the craziness which the upside-down situation in SCs creates. I accept the seediness and weirdness which results from the attempt to create the fantasy. As long as there are sexy naked girls there, it's interesting.

Hopper
05-08-2009, 10:40 PM
I agree with you JayATee,... any man who says he's not paying for the sweet talk is lying and/or deceiving himself... The male ego is fragile, and worst yet, it is constantly under attack... The "obedient and devoted" wife or girlfriend used to be our source for a fast-and-easy ego-boost, but feminism has now turned her into our equal, our competitor,... and ... our critiquer... Now, instead of boosting our ego, she is deflating it half the time, even unwittingly...

So,... the SC is the last place on earth where any loser with a wounded ego can receive instant ego-therapy. Despite his loser status everywhere else, he is treated like a winner in the SC (as long as he carries some cash with him)... It's not JUST about tits-and-ass,... NOTHING boosts a male-ego more than a hot young semi-naked girl flirting with and sweet-talking him... Women have shop-therapy to cope with self-esteem and deflated-ego issues,... us men have stripper-therapy...

I enjoy the sweet-talk and the vamping, but I'm not such a chump that I believe it. I don't enjoy having a cold, pretty lump sitting on my lap as much as a congenial one. For all I know some of it is genuine, but I've no way of knowing how much of it. Even a loser is gong to find out eventually that it's not genuine, and his ego will be worse for it. A male loser can go to therapy too - and should if it comes to relying on SCs. They ain't no how a genuine source of therapy, which is what you seem to be claiming.

Nor do I like what you are saying about pre-feminist woman. You are buying into the feminist myth that the only alternative to a feminised woman is a slave, and that before the feminism state was established that is what they were. The way you are talking here, I think feminism has done a number on you. Feminists want the same selfish relations between the sexes that you appear to want and view male-female relations in terms of conflict like you do. To an extent there naturally is conflict and competition between the sexes, but they also have overlapping interests and both have emotional needs.

Hopper
05-08-2009, 10:45 PM
No dude, you need a professional psychiatrist ;D

You don't even know you're a misogynist. Everyone's ego is fragile, men and women alike. If you need praise you're still a child, adults boost their own egos my friend. Children need sponsors. Read the words of the wise Black Widow on this BBS. Most of us actually go for the tits and the ass. :P

Good point, well said. I thought guys with this purely materialist approach to behaviour and sex in particular went out in the late 90s. It's not balanced. They reveal themselves not to be the men they think they are.

jack0177057
05-08-2009, 10:47 PM
Everyone's ego is fragile, men and women alike.

Yeah, but men (specially white men) have traditionally had inferiors (i.e., women and ethnic minorities) that they can look down upon for a quick ego-boost... That's gone now... Wives used to support their husbands no matter what... Gone...

Surely, you have self-esteem issues, since you are a self-proclaimed misogynist... I am NOT a misogynist - I am not arguing that women should revert to their traditional subservient roles for the sake of our male egos... My only point is that us men need time to adjust... But, those that can't adjust,... will invariably become misogynists...

I HAD ego issues and used the SC for ego-therapy,... but, I've moved on past that... That's why I have no problem saying these things... First step - know thyself... You,... on the other hand, are still dillusional...


If you need praise you're still a child, adults boost their own egos my friend. Children need sponsors.

You live in lala land if you really believe that... Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, divorce, hatred, racism, violence... all have the same root problem: low self-esteem and disfunctional egos. Children can cope by escaping to the world of fantasy and imagination... Adults are stuck in reality... You can say you're a big guy and don't need a sweet-talking sexy dancer to make your ego bounce up, but that's bullshit... As far as tits and ass are concerned... you see one and you've seen them all... There is nothing new to discover...

I am honest with myself and admit that I USED to go for the WHOLE package: tits, ass and an ego boost... Now, I go for the tits, ass and intellectual interaction... I enjoy talking to dancers... I think they are genuinely smart and interesting women.


Most of us actually go for the tits and the ass. :P

If that were true, the dancers wouldn't fake being "nice and sweet" all the time... They know more about their business than you or I and they know how to optimize their earning potential... They know that sweet-talking will earn them more income, even from self-styled "mysogynists" like you...

Also, if tits and ass were all you cared about... You wouldn't waste time on this forum... I don't see any tits and ass on my screen, do you?... Your participation on this forum betrays that you crave some interaction with them... Even if it is just to piss them off... You crave their attention...

jack0177057
05-08-2009, 11:06 PM
Nor do I like what you are saying about pre-feminist woman...

Before feminism, women put up with all kinds of shit... My grandfather cheated on my grandmother many times over and even had kids out of wedlock, which he ended up bringing home... Yet, in those days, my grandmother wouldn't even think of divorcing him... She had no education, no job or experience, no place to go... She "stuck by her man", in part, because she had no choice or opportunity...


You are buying into the feminist myth that the only alternative to a feminised woman is a slave.

No, YOU are buying into the myth that a "feminised woman" is monogenious and is some kind of monster... There are MANY types of "feminised woman" and post-feminist women... They cover the entire spectrum of politics... Some are pro-choice, others are pro-life... Some oppose pornography, others are "sex-positive"... Some are vocal radicals, others are just quietly pursuing a career and making the most of new opportunities.

I think a lot of dancers probably fall into the sex-positive feminist camp. If you are a custie,... you are getting the benefit of the "feminised woman"...

Raysworld
05-09-2009, 12:06 AM
I don't even know where to begin.

Men, i'll advise this: If you go to a strip club more than once every month...stop. Exchanging money for a quick ego-boost, and a rub down by a naked-dancing-girl is inherently defective. You will only end up being out of psychological-equilibrium in the long-run. Fact of the matter is, most people are unable to differentiate between reality and fantasy.

And ultimately "reality or fantasy" isn't the premise you are grappling with. You are having an inner-struggle with deep psychological desires that only surface when feelings of discontent, necessity to fill a void, etc., come about. We all have these feelings. How you deal with these feelings is the difference between greatness and non-greatness. It is the difference between happy and unhappy.

Being able to control your sexual-desires is absolutely a spiritual experience. Its on a different level of being.

Im not suggesting that you be celibate or unaffected by any means. rather, controlling your physical and sexual desires will only result in healthy progression in life. Controlling them in a way that they are only exerted when you emote naturally and positively. In other words, when you feel good. And not momentarily good, but eternally good.

This may all sound like some pseudo-spiritual/psychological mumbo-jumbo - and it very well might be to some - but the truth lies in the results and in the logic.

Raysworld
05-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Yeah, but men (specially white men) have traditionally had inferiors (i.e., women and ethnic minorities) that they can look down upon for a quick ego-boost... That's gone now... Wives used to support their husbands no matter what... Gone...

Surely, you have self-esteem issues, since you are a self-proclaimed misogynist... I am NOT a misogynist - I am not arguing that women should revert to their traditional subservient roles for the sake of our male egos... My only point is that us men need time to adjust... But, those that can't adjust,... will invariably become misogynists...

I HAD ego issues and used the SC for ego-therapy,... but, I've moved on past that... That's why I have no problem saying these things... First step - know thyself... You,... on the other hand, are still dillusional...



You live in lala land if you really believe that... Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, divorce, hatred, racism, violence... all have the same root problem: low self-esteem and disfunctional egos. Children can cope by escaping to the world of fantasy and imagination... Adults are stuck in reality... You can say you're a big guy and don't need a sweet-talking sexy dancer to make your ego bounce up, but that's bullshit... As far as tits and ass are concerned... you see one and you've seen them all... There is nothing new to discover...

I am honest with myself and admit that I USED to go for the WHOLE package: tits, ass and an ego boost... Now, I go for the tits, ass and intellectual interaction... I enjoy talking to dancers... I think they are genuinely smart and interesting women.



If that were true, the dancers wouldn't fake being "nice and sweet" all the time... They know more about their business than you or I and they know how to optimize their earning potential... They know that sweet-talking will earn them more income, even from self-styled "mysogynists" like you...

Also, if tits and ass were all you cared about... You wouldn't waste time on this forum... I don't see any tits and ass on my screen, do you?... Your participation on this forum betrays that you crave some interaction with them... Even if it is just to piss them off... You crave their attention...

Jack, i like you, and think you are one of the brighter posters on this board, but you seem to be in state of confusion or denial yourself. Im not going to sit here and try to psycho-analyze you over the internet, but some of the things you have said about ego and the result of that ego are contradictory.

You used to be egotistical, but have all of a sudden become non-egotistical as a result of this site? Ego by definition is the notion of "I", "myself". The desire of having some levels of fame, notoriety, love etc., are all subject to ego. The only time you are no longer egotistical is when you are dead or unconscious.

I do find your thoughts on the stripper/customer dynamic to be pretty well written from a macro perspective. But you and I both know there are deeper things at play here.

commanderadama
05-09-2009, 12:30 AM
Yeah, but men (specially white men) have traditionally had inferiors (i.e., women and ethnic minorities) that they can look down upon for a quick ego-boost... That's gone now... Wives used to support their husbands no matter what... Gone...


Jack, that statement is more misogynistic than anything I've ever written on this board, racist too. You, everyone, needs to read what I write, not what they think I write. (Which I must admit is an interesting game to me.)

First: I'm not a "white male" so I never had that "ego boost" as you call it.

Second: The Furthest South I go is Pennsylvania. I don't visit red states and I actually despise all who live in them. Except Texas, I like Austin and SXSW is an awesome festival.

Third: I'm a misanthrope. So saying I'm a misogynist is just, as you imply, a provocation, but you're dead wrong on the motive. I don't hate everyone, I don't trust them, thus My default position is to not trust you too.

Fourth: You have no idea why I'm here. As I've noted before this is an anonymous forum, pondering about why I'm here is just a game I suppose you enjoy. :D

Fifth: I have gay friends and lesbian friends. Their relationships are just as ego bruising as ours. Thus I am not homophobic and KNOW both egos are equally fragile! Which is why I told you to read Black Widow's posts, she is very knowledgeable about the human species and is better at writing than I am. Of course she's verbose, so you probably are too busy to read all her prose. 8)

Hopper
05-09-2009, 01:19 AM
Before feminism, women put up with all kinds of shit... My grandfather cheated on my grandmother many times over and even had kids out of wedlock, which he ended up bringing home... Yet, in those days, my grandmother wouldn't even think of divorcing him... She had no education, no job or experience, no place to go... She "stuck by her man", in part, because she had no choice or opportunity...

Not all relationships are like that and men were also mistreated by women. Heard of the hen-pecked husband? Women are self-interested also and have their own ways.


No, YOU are buying into the myth that a "feminised woman" is monogenious and is some kind of monster... There are MANY types of "feminised woman" and post-feminist women... They cover the entire spectrum of politics... Some are pro-choice, others are pro-life... Some oppose pornography, others are "sex-positive"... Some are vocal radicals, others are just quietly pursuing a career and making the most of new opportunities.

Disagree - women have just responded to feminism in different ways. Feminism itself, at it's core, is of only a single type. Of course there are varying factions and differences of opinion, but that is the same in any ideological movement and is merely a result of individual differences and egoes. Any movement grows by adopting and discussing different ideas within it's ideological framework. The core of feminism is politically radical, "mainstream" feminism is just it's friendly public face. Some varieties of feminism exist merely to cater to different kinds of people. But they all lead to the same place. All varieties have more in common than they have differences. "Post-feminist" woman is just a misleading term for a fully-feminised woman.


I think a lot of dancers probably fall into the sex-positive feminist camp. If you are a custie,... you are getting the
benefit of the "feminised woman"...

I agree with this. Feminism has ironically worked in men's interests. But then feminism is not at all genuinely about liberating women. Feminism was invented by men. Feminists did not invent the sex industry - people long ago worked out that male sexual desire could be expoited for money. It is feminist only in the sense that feminist advocacy of sexual freedom fosters such industries.

Hopper
05-09-2009, 01:45 AM
Yeah, but men (specially white men) have traditionally had inferiors (i.e., women and ethnic minorities) that they can look down upon for a quick ego-boost... That's gone now... Wives used to support their husbands no matter what... Gone...

Again, that is an insult to women. That has never been the general relationship between men and women. In some cultures and time periods to some degree, yes, to varying degrees. For some individuals in all cultures yes. But you are making an unrealistic generalisation.


Surely, you have self-esteem issues, since you are a self-proclaimed misogynist... I am NOT a misogynist - I am not arguing that women should revert to their traditional subservient roles for the sake of our male egos... My only point is that us men need time to adjust... But, those that can't adjust,... will invariably become misogynists...

No, you don't want women to revert to their traditional (not subservient) roles because it gave them security and obliged you to make a commitment, whereas now you can go about screwing as many as you can with not strings. Seems you are dillusional and don't "know thyself".


I HAD ego issues and used the SC for ego-therapy,... but, I've moved on past that... That's why I have no problem saying these things... First step - know thyself... You,... on the other hand, are still dillusional...

I don't see how paying to touch a woman can boost my ego. It allows interaction with women who might otherwise not choose interact withe me and and allow me to accustom myself to interacting with such women (assuming I could't OTC). But the fact remains that any self-assured man would have such opportunities OTC and the ego of any man who can't would be aware of that shortcoming and know that that's the reason he is at the club.


You live in lala land if you really believe that... Alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, divorce, hatred, racism, violence... all have the same root problem: low self-esteem and disfunctional egos. Children can cope by escaping to the world of fantasy and imagination... Adults are stuck in reality... You can say you're a big guy and don't need a sweet-talking sexy dancer to make your ego bounce up, but that's bullshit... As far as tits and ass are concerned... you see one and you've seen them all... There is nothing new to discover...

Adults are capable of making use of fantasy and escapism in a constructinve manner. Probably not healthy for a child to do it in the extreme situations you are referring to. I don't need a sweet-talking dancer to boost my ego - I have friends and relations with women OTC. Few club-goers would be so socially isolated that their only positive social interaction is with strippers.


I am honest with myself and admit that I USED to go for the WHOLE package: tits, ass and an ego boost... Now, I go for the tits, ass and intellectual interaction... I enjoy talking to dancers... I think they are genuinely smart and interesting women.

Did you really say "tits, ass and intellectual interaction"? Again, there are smart and intelligent women OTC. So why do you really go there?


If that were true, the dancers wouldn't fake being "nice and sweet" all the time... They know more about their business than you or I and they know how to optimize their earning potential... They know that sweet-talking will earn them more income, even from self-styled "mysogynists" like you...

Fair call - we don't want unfriendly T&As. But it's still not for my ego. An openly contemptuous dancer would not help my ego, but people OTC are still nice to me, so that makes up for it.

The sweet persona of strippers is more to hide the fact that they don't enjoy LDs with you, it's to assure you that it's okay for you to do it with her, to overcome the shyness which any man feels toward attractive women. It's also (mainly) to sweet-talk you into it fo course. It's not about boosting the patron's ego, though the dancers probably use that. I agree that it would be an ego boost for some if it is convincing for them.


Also, if tits and ass were all you cared about... You wouldn't waste time on this forum... I don't see any tits and ass on my screen, do you?... Your participation on this forum betrays that you crave some interaction with them... Even if it is just to piss them off... You crave their attention...

They aren't in the same room with me talking nor are they nice to me like they are ITC. No different to interacting with other people in other forums. I come here for info on whats going on and because I'm interested in what the dancers say here and find it interesting talking to them about what they do. It's not like being ITC.

JayATee
05-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Not saying stripping is the same as waiting, just that the reason neither complains is because they are paid not to. My point is really the one you made yourself earlier when arguing the opposite POV: The dancer is happy to be on my lap because she is paid to - it's her job. It's so obvious and basic that neither of us should have to point it out to the other.

Okay so there are guys who pay lots for pampering - it's their business. But I was saying to you that most of the dancers in the SCs I've been to have not been as good at it as you appear to be and don't even try. Many of them are duplicitous when it suits them, but most of them show their real selves very often - some the whole time. I would not expect any guy to be under any illusions for very long at the clubs I've been to.

I'd like it if the dancers at the clubs I go to were like you and would probably spend more on them if they were. I'd enjoy that sort of experience and interaction. I used to wish that SCs provided a more convincing fantasy show, but the reality falls short. Perhaps that's because so many guys don't know how to play along nice and don't pay enough, so that the girls are going too far out on a limb with no incentive. Most managements don't have that kind of class either. Occasionally though I do meet a dancer who can nicely maintain a congenial and sexy persona - a girl who plays the game.

But generally for me it's about the physical intimacy, the setting, the atmosphere, the interaction such as it is and the craziness which the upside-down situation in SCs creates. I accept the seediness and weirdness which results from the attempt to create the fantasy. As long as there are sexy naked girls there, it's interesting.

You should come in sometime than!! ;D

Hopper
05-09-2009, 06:13 PM
You should come in sometime than!! ;D

I don't know which club you work at. And I'm a long way from NY. Sounds nice though.

commanderadama
05-09-2009, 07:06 PM
Good point, well said. I thought guys with this purely materialist approach to behaviour and sex in particular went out in the late 90s. It's not balanced. They reveal themselves not to be the men they think they are.

Dude are you channeling Kinsey or something? As far as what kind of man I am... I'll just say I am a man who doesn't see the point of LTRs with women since I have no interest in being a provider or a father. And see marriage as a horrible deal for men in the West.

Thus my interest in women starts and ends with the sexual. Clubbing is cool, Dating is OK but at a strip club I can get what I want quickly without having to feign interest in some boring suburbanite female. So is that what you meant by "materialist approach"?

Hopper
05-09-2009, 08:02 PM
Dude are you channeling Kinsey or something? As far as what kind of man I am... I'll just say I am a man who doesn't see the point of LTRs with women since I have no interest in being a provider or a father. And see marriage as a horrible deal for men in the West.

Thus my interest in women starts and ends with the sexual. Clubbing is cool, Dating is OK but at a strip club I can get what I want quickly without having to feign interest in some boring suburbanite female. So is that what you meant by "materialist approach"?

No. I was referring to jack, not yourself. He talks about ego as if it is something totally determined by outside causes and effects, i.e. not something that is a product of an independent human will (which is what I think ego is). So he justifies his interactions with women with this idea that his ego is fragile and needs "boosting" from women, and that he is helplessly following his own urges which in turn are helplessly responding to outside positive and negative stimuli. In other words, no will, no independence, no strength - not a real man. At the same time he is posturing as if he is the only real man here.

By "materialist" I was referring to the materialist philosophy, which is a disbelief in the existence of anything other than matter and energy. Not materialism in the sense of only desiring material things. I've known guys with Jack's "How To Pick Up Girls" mentality who describe all interaction in "scientific" terms. They are partly right, but they apply it too narrowly. They are like damn robots.

Kinsey would agree with Jack.

Golden_Rule
05-09-2009, 09:44 PM
I have read this thread, well not this thread but many like it, over and over again.

I have to admit I don't totally understand it from either side as it always appears that each is aiming for something from the start and trying too hard to get it.

When I go into a strip-club as a customer I am simply looking to have fun. I am open to any kind of fun that might be. I don't have any agenda as I, very pointedly, am not looking for anything in particular.

I just "be" and let whatever happens, happen, and respond as seems best appropriate as it does. Almost never proactive, always responding to what others in the club have placed before me to work with.

As such all manner of marvelous stuff has happened to me in strip-clubs. I've found funny people and laughed. I've found glorious partners-in-crime and we've cut up for other's amusement [tips always seem to get better all the way around when that happens]. Sometimes even... shhhhhhhhh... sexy stuff happens . All out of just relaxing and being open to any and all possibilities while never forgetting to keep the third eye open for potential trouble.

No expectations means no disappointments.

commanderadama
05-09-2009, 10:44 PM
No. I was referring to jack, not yourself. He talks about ego as if it is something totally determined by outside causes and effects, i.e. not something that is a product of an independent human will (which is what I think ego is). So he justifies his interactions with women with this idea that his ego is fragile and needs "boosting" from women, and that he is helplessly following his own urges which in turn are helplessly responding to outside positive and negative stimuli. In other words, no will, no independence, no strenth - not a real man. At the same time he is posturing as if he is the only real man here.

By "materialist" I was referring to the materialist philospy, which is a disbelief in the existence of anything other than matter and energy. Not materialism in the sense of only desiring material things. I've known guys with Jack's "How To Pick Up Girls" mentality who describe all interaction in "scientific" terms. They are partly right, but they apply it too narrowly. They are like damn robots.



Kinsey would agree with Jack.

Hmmm... I don't know much about him. I read an article in the Atlantic a while back and HBO did a thing on his sex study which wasn't a complete waste of 2 hours. :)

Although I do agree with your analysis of Jack. He seems to miss the old caste system, perhaps he should move to India? As far as people in general go, I think we're all actually very fragile.

Hopper
05-10-2009, 12:37 AM
Hmmm... I don't know much about him. I read an article in the Atlantic a while back and HBO did a thing on his sex study which wasn't a complete waste of 2 hours. :)

Although I do agree with your analysis of Jack. He seems to miss the old caste system, perhaps he should move to India? As far as people in general go, I think we're all actually very fragile.

Kinsey studied variations in sexual behaviour amongst individuals. He was interested largely in sexual deviance. His belief was that all sexual behaviour is valid, including homosexuality and pedophilia. He actually believed that everyone naturally should embrace all sexual behaviour and that those who limit themselves to normal sex are repressing other behaviour due to social constraints. Not something all psychiatrists would agree with. He and his wife practiced these beliefs and encouraged their colloagues to do the same, although it resulted in a lot of acrimony and psychological distress for some of them. Although his ideas became popularly recieved, the validity of his scientific work has since been questionned.

I don't know if there is a system anywhere for Jack. He doesn't seem a bad or altogether dim person, but I wish I had a daughter so I could forbid her to marry him.

Hopper
05-10-2009, 09:20 PM
I have read this thread, well not this thread but many like it, over and over again.

I have to admit I don't totally understand it from either side as it always appears that each is aiming for something from the start and trying too hard to get it.

When I go into a strip-club as a customer I am simply looking to have fun. I am open to any kind of fun that might be. I don't have any agenda as I, very pointedly, am not looking for anything in particular.

I just "be" and let whatever happens, happen, and respond as seems best appropriate as it does. Almost never proactive, always responding to what others in the club have placed before me to work with.

As such all manner of marvelous stuff has happened to me in strip-clubs. I've found funny people and laughed. I've found glorious partners-in-crime and we've cut up for other's amusement [tips always seem to get better all the way around when that happens]. Sometimes even... shhhhhhhhh... sexy stuff happens . All out of just relaxing and being open to any and all possibilities while never forgetting to keep the third eye open for potential trouble.

No expectations means no disappointments.

I don't aim to get anything except what I pay for. I've got no illusions. It's nice to get more, but I'm not disappointed if I don't. (Note: "More" here does not mean "extras". They don't interest me.)

chris91
05-10-2009, 10:38 PM
I think that the confusion here comes from us mis-using the word fantasy. We should be saying illusion.

When we talk about fantasy, we are referring to the illusion that we create for customers, which is that we really want to do the things we do with you and that we would love to date/fuck you. Not everyone is interested in this illusion, but we make sure that it is there just in case.

When we say "remember that it's fantasy" and "don't peek behind the curtain", we are talking to the guys who do want the illusion. Those two pieces of advice mean basically the same thing, and that is this: If you DO want the illusion, then don't ruin it by asking us out or trying to fuck us. It ruins the illusion by forcing us to tell you that we, in reality, do not want to date/fuck you and only care about your money.

It's like a magic trick. You know that the magician isn't REALLY cutting his assistant in half, but you still enjoy the show because it's fun. You suspend your disbelief. You enjoy the illusion, but you don't go looking for the reality of it, and you don't ask the magician if you can see the assistant's bloody stumps.

Hopper
05-10-2009, 10:55 PM
I think that the confusion here comes from us mis-using the word fantasy. We should be saying illusion.

When we talk about fantasy, we are referring to the illusion that we create for customers, which is that we really want to do the things we do with you and that we would love to date/fuck you. Not everyone is interested in this illusion, but we make sure that it is there just in case.

When we say "remember that it's fantasy" and "don't peek behind the curtain", we are talking to the guys who do want the illusion. Those two pieces of advice mean basically the same thing, and that is this: If you DO want the illusion, then don't ruin it by asking us out or trying to fuck us. It ruins the illusion by forcing us to tell you that we, in reality, do not want to date/fuck you and only care about your money.

It's like a magic trick. You know that the magician isn't REALLY cutting his assistant in half, but you still enjoy the show because it's fun. You suspend your disbelief. You enjoy the illusion, but you don't go looking for the reality of it, and you don't ask the magician if you can see the assistant's bloody stumps.

Well said. I think it's unfair on dancers to put them in this awkward position. Plenty of other girls to approach OTC. Not that the dancers aren't prepared for it.

The curtain gets pretty thin sometimes - often transparent.

Raysworld
05-10-2009, 11:13 PM
I think that the confusion here comes from us mis-using the word fantasy. We should be saying illusion.

When we talk about fantasy, we are referring to the illusion that we create for customers, which is that we really want to do the things we do with you and that we would love to date/fuck you. Not everyone is interested in this illusion, but we make sure that it is there just in case.

When we say "remember that it's fantasy" and "don't peek behind the curtain", we are talking to the guys who do want the illusion. Those two pieces of advice mean basically the same thing, and that is this: If you DO want the illusion, then don't ruin it by asking us out or trying to fuck us. It ruins the illusion by forcing us to tell you that we, in reality, do not want to date/fuck you and only care about your money.

It's like a magic trick. You know that the magician isn't REALLY cutting his assistant in half, but you still enjoy the show because it's fun. You suspend your disbelief. You enjoy the illusion, but you don't go looking for the reality of it, and you don't ask the magician if you can see the assistant's bloody stumps.


haha! great post chris.

Illusion has a negative connotation. It implies deception. Are you deceiving your customers? Moreover, is illusion your selling point?

You see, a magician's job is to deceive an audience, and the audience acknowledges this fact ahead of time. Most, if not all, magic-show patrons want to know how he did it. There is always a level of curiosity about the unknown. When we feel deceived we feel stupid. We feel like the magician is questioning our intellect. And therefore, at some level, all patrons want to know how he did what he did.

The stripper/customer dynamic is COMPLETELY different. There are genetic attributes built in to our systems that allow you sell whatever it is you are selling. Gays for example: they won't buy what you are selling because they are not already genetically predisposed to being attracted to you.

In fact, you aren't selling anything. Your product is your female genetics...and any male will buy that.

Wordplay really isn't the issue here.

Andy08
05-10-2009, 11:58 PM
The fantasy is (assuming that you're attracted to me in particular) that I actually want to engage you in conversation, flirt with you, laugh at your jokes, strip for you, etc...

The reality...I think you're appalling and want to hurry up and take your money so I can get the hell away from you.

chris91
05-11-2009, 12:04 AM
haha! great post chris.

Illusion has a negative connotation. It implies deception. Are you deceiving your customers? Moreover, is illusion your selling point?

I know what illusion means, and I don't see it as having a negative or positive connotation. Magicians are "illusionists", and there is nothing negative about what they do. It's deceptive, but not in the way that a lie is deceptive. It's expected that the audience shows up already knowing that the magician is going to deceive them, and they pay for the privilege because the illusion is fun. The same is expected of strip club customers.

And, yes, when I am dealing with a guy that wants the illusion, then it is my selling point.



You see, a magician's job is to deceive an audience, and the audience acknowledges this fact ahead of time. Most, if not all, magic-show patrons want to know how he did it. There is always a level of curiosity about the unknown. When we feel deceived we feel stupid. We feel like the magician is questioning our intellect. And therefore, at some level, all patrons want to know how he did what he did.

I don't think that most people feel like magicians are questioning anyone's intellect. Yes, some of them want to know how he did it, but most don't push the issue. They don't walk up to the guy and demand that saw a girl in half right in front of them or admit that the trick was deception.




The stripper/customer dynamic is COMPLETELY different. There are genetic attributes built in to our systems that allow you sell whatever it is you are selling. Gays for example: they won't buy what you are selling because they are not already genetically predisposed to being attracted to you.

I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not saying that I could sell a dance to a gay man by creating the illusion that I had a genuine interest in being with him. I'm not even sure where you got that idea from.

That said, I am a special effects makeup artist. I'm pretty confident that I could put together a convincing "hot guy" costume, and sell a gay man a dance using that illusion.



In fact, you aren't selling anything. Your product is your female genetics...and any male will buy that.

There is only one part of this statement that is even close to being accurate. Female genetics are Part of my product.



Wordplay really isn't the issue here.

Maybe not, but my point is still valid. I just thought that using the word illusion would make it easier to understand. I feel like you are arguing semantics here, and I'm not really interested in that.

chris91
05-11-2009, 12:15 AM
Well said. I think it's unfair on dancers to put them in this awkward position. Plenty of other girls to approach OTC. Not that the dancers aren't prepared for it.

The curtain gets pretty thin sometimes - often transparent.

Yeah, we are prepared for it. It sucks when it happens, because it costs me money. More than that though, I just don't like seeing the look on a dudes face after I've rejected him. Customers irritate me sometimes, but I still really don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I would prefer that they all leave happy and have sweet wet dreams about the sexy dancers who may or may not want to fuck them.

Raysworld
05-11-2009, 12:23 AM
chris, it doesn't really matter what you see the word as. An illusion is defined as something that creates a deceptive or false or misleading impression of reality. And therefore inherently has negative connotation.

patrons are willingly go to a magician to get deceived while most strip-club customers are not. When you deceive someone,you trick them. When you trick someone, you make them feel stupid. This is more subconscious than it is conscious.

Fantasy would better apply to this case.

The point of my post was to acknowledge that stripper/customer dynamic is unique and that it can't be compared to anything else.

You are selling genetic predisposition for chirsake. If you are hot, you sell it better than others. Simple as that.

Furthermore, every man goes to the strip-club with some sort of subconscious hope that he will meet someone he can potentially have sex with. If they tell you anything different than this then they are absolutely lying to you or lying to themselves.

if it were not for societal constraints...i would have e-impregnated all of you by now:P

chris91
05-11-2009, 01:16 AM
Ok, I get it. You don't like my analogy. You don't like the words I used. Call it fantasy, deception, marketing or whatever you want. My point remains the same:

It's not real. It's a sales tactic. I pretend to be attracted to my customers. I do it because it seems to be what they want. I assume that it is what they want, because they give me money to do it.

It suck for everyone involved when a guy asks me out and forces me to reveal the truth. I tell internet dudes to "remember that it's fantasy", hoping that it will help them to have a more enjoyable strip club experience, and avoid the certain rejection and heartbreak that comes from forgetting that it's fantasy.





You are selling genetic predisposition for chirsake. If you are hot, you sell it better than others. Simple as that.

Furthermore, every man goes to the strip-club with some sort of subconscious hope that he will meet someone he can potentially have sex with. If they tell you anything different than this then they are absolutely lying to you or lying to themselves.


This simply isn't true. I've been out sold by girls who were waaaay less hot than me and doing the same exact no-extras dances as me. They were just better at sales. Better at creating the fantasy/illusion.

Also, I don't believe that every man who goes to strip clubs is looking to fuck one of the girls. There are plenty of men out there who don't want to fuck strangers. You can't assume that everyone feels the same way that you do.

I feel like you are deliberately trying to bait me into some kind of pointless circular argument, so I'm going to stop here.

mediocrity
05-11-2009, 04:09 AM
Oh boo hoo. What is all this nonsense about deception, illusion and all the crybabies whining about whether or not we are being deceptive?

The long and the short of it: Yes, I am decieving you. I am pretending you are sooooo awesome and soooo hot and smart and great and I just looooove dancing for you. So the hell what? That's what you're paying for: to see my boobs and feel like a beautiful girl thinks you are the bee's knees. Would you rather I came up and was like: "Hey, you're moderately attractive. Would you like a dance?" or even worse "Hi. I find you old and repulsive. Would you like a dance?"

Everyone needs to get off the psych couch and just enjoy it.

A_Guy
05-11-2009, 05:01 AM
Everyone needs to get off the psych couch and just enjoy it.

Exactly. This thread is way too long and complicated.

Simply use this formula:
Money = Naked Boobs = good time. It's as reliable as Newton's first law of motion.




Come on guys. This thread is ruining the reputation of men everywhere; we're not suppose to over think and over complicate things... remember?!?!

Hopper
05-11-2009, 06:03 AM
Ray -

Painting is often illuionist. Is art negative then? A magician does not make people feel stupid, he is simply displayiing a special ability which he aquired by training which others have not undertaken. You may as well say the job of a chef or a figure skater is to make people feel stupid - I can't cook or skate. I think you need to cut the word-play if anyone does.

Hopper
05-11-2009, 06:08 AM
The stripper/customer dynamic is COMPLETELY different. There are genetic attributes built in to our systems that allow you sell whatever it is you are selling. Gays for example: they won't buy what you are selling because they are not already genetically predisposed to being attracted to you.

In fact, you aren't selling anything. Your product is your female genetics...and any male will buy that.

There are attributes built into anything which make it saleable.

vmurphy252
05-11-2009, 06:22 AM
chris, it doesn't really matter what you see the word as. An illusion is defined as something that creates a deceptive or false or misleading impression of reality. And therefore inherently has negative connotation.

patrons are willingly go to a magician to get deceived while most strip-club customers are not. When you deceive someone,you trick them. When you trick someone, you make them feel stupid. This is more subconscious than it is conscious.

Fantasy would better apply to this case.

The point of my post was to acknowledge that stripper/customer dynamic is unique and that it can't be compared to anything else.

You are selling genetic predisposition for chirsake. If you are hot, you sell it better than others. Simple as that.

Furthermore, every man goes to the strip-club with some sort of subconscious hope that he will meet someone he can potentially have sex with. If they tell you anything different than this then they are absolutely lying to you or lying to themselves.

if it were not for societal constraints...i would have e-impregnated all of you by now:P

I agree with you a little bit. I think most men go with the subconscious hope that he will be irresistible to whoever he takes a fancy to, and that it will ultimately end up being a sexual and/or romantic relationship. However, that has nothing to do with the reason the environment is provided. SCs are intended to be an illusory/entertainment experience. The issue is with the people that can't handle that fact (and you will find threads repeating this theme over and over and over). It corresponds to the heavy metal/video games cause kids to go Columbine. No, they don't; kids that are predisposed to go on a killing spree may incorporate something they think they hear into a rationalization. Same thing; a guy who is predisposed to being a batshiat crazy about women should probably stay away from an environment that provides a fantasy that feeds into that tendency. Otherwise, most guys should be good to go.

Also, have to disagree on the whole hotness/genetic predisposition argument. I have had dances from quite a few different dancers, and the ones I remember are not necessarily the physically hottest. I''ve had one that almost turned me into the psycho guy referenced above and she was not above "pretty" by normal standard (other than her f'ing eyes; no issues here though).

Anyway, I guess my point is that it is entertainment, and men that can't handle that shouldn't go. Not trying to lose customers for you, girls, but I think it would make it easier for you in the long run.

Hopper
05-11-2009, 06:22 AM
...

patrons are willingly go to a magician to get deceived while most strip-club customers are not. When you deceive someone,you trick them. When you trick someone, you make them feel stupid. This is more subconscious than it is conscious.

Fantasy would better apply to this case.

The point of my post was to acknowledge that stripper/customer dynamic is unique and that it can't be compared to anything else.

...

Furthermore, every man goes to the strip-club with some sort of subconscious hope that he will meet someone he can potentially have sex with. If they tell you anything different than this then they are absolutely lying to you or lying to themselves.

if it were not for societal constraints...i would have e-impregnated all of you by now:P

Ray, I seriously do not believe that I can just walk into a room full of nice girls and have them all want to take fheir clothes off for me and chat with me. I'd have to actually be stupid. I'd be more likely to believe the magic act.

Fantasy is a good work, but do you believe your fantasies? I agree that the stripper/patron dynamic is unique, but what is your point?

It's true that I would like to have sex with many of the strippers I have met, but I wouldn't say I have much hope in doing so on any given club visit. Of course that is to do with societal constraints - namely that the strippers don't want to have sex with me.

EDIT: I'll give you that we go feeling that we could score with a stripper, and the environment makes us feel like we can. But a second's thought tells us that it is just a feeling - its not why the girls work there.

Everyman
05-11-2009, 06:30 AM
I'VE GOT IT!! After starting this thread and reading everyone's thoughts, I will allow there is the possibility I am engaging in SOME occasional fantasy.

During or after my strip club exploits, I've never been fooled into thinking a stripper is "into" me. I like the younger ones, and I'm just too old and ugly for them (no matter how fascinating my conversation may be). I know this; that's why I have to pay.

HOWEVER. To the extent I ever "talk" to a dancer -- if it's more than just a short private dance encounter -- I usually walk away with thinking she enjoyed it a little, or at least found it neutral and tolerable due to the money. I don't stink, I'm not rude, I don't get drunk. I don't proposition, I try to be interesting...in general I try to be a pleasant customer to talk to.

IF a dancer walks away from me in this mindset, then I'm not fooling myself and all is reality.

But IF a dancer walks away from me mentally gagging, glad the conversation is over, and next time I see her she thinks "god here comes that guy I hate, put on a big smile!", then I guess I'm fooling myself and engaging in a fantasy. Given the number of people I've talked to, I assume this has happened at times, but I think (hope?) it usually doesn't.

Hopper
05-11-2009, 06:38 AM
Oh boo hoo. What is all this nonsense about deception, illusion and all the crybabies whining about whether or not we are being deceptive?

The long and the short of it: Yes, I am decieving you. I am pretending you are sooooo awesome and soooo hot and smart and great and I just looooove dancing for you. So the hell what? That's what you're paying for: to see my boobs and feel like a beautiful girl thinks you are the bee's knees. Would you rather I came up and was like: "Hey, you're moderately attractive. Would you like a dance?" or even worse "Hi. I find you old and repulsive. Would you like a dance?"

Everyone needs to get off the psych couch and just enjoy it.

Good point. I'd rather not be told. Keep the illusion please. Or at least don't say what you think. I don't believe that you don't mind, but being told is different.

SCs are not a fantasy themselves - they are enactments of fantasies and stimulation for fantasy. Like a movie. They are like big fancy dress parties.

Raysworld
05-11-2009, 07:18 AM
Ok, I get it. You don't like my analogy. You don't like the words I used. Call it fantasy, deception, marketing or whatever you want. My point remains the same:

It's not real. It's a sales tactic. I pretend to be attracted to my customers. I do it because it seems to be what they want. I assume that it is what they want, because they give me money to do it.

It suck for everyone involved when a guy asks me out and forces me to reveal the truth. I tell internet dudes to "remember that it's fantasy", hoping that it will help them to have a more enjoyable strip club experience, and avoid the certain rejection and heartbreak that comes from forgetting that it's fantasy.




This simply isn't true. I've been out sold by girls who were waaaay less hot than me and doing the same exact no-extras dances as me. They were just better at sales. Better at creating the fantasy/illusion.

Also, I don't believe that every man who goes to strip clubs is looking to fuck one of the girls. There are plenty of men out there who don't want to fuck strangers. You can't assume that everyone feels the same way that you do.

I feel like you are deliberately trying to bait me into some kind of pointless circular argument, so I'm going to stop here.

No, honestly, I don't think you are capable of understanding what im saying, and you keep reverting to defense tactics.

You are creating an illusion. You are creating an illusion because you are being deceptive.

Capitalism by nature is deceptive. Its selfish.

The problem isn't subject to your stripper bubble, its subject to consumerism and the premise of our society. The nature of strip clubs just magnifies that fact.

You get it now? Im saying that SCs are inherently flawed.

peace.

Hopper
05-11-2009, 07:33 AM
No, honestly, I don't think you are capable of understanding what im saying, and you keep reverting to defense tactics.

You are creating an illusion. You are creating an illusion because you are being deceptive.

Capitalism by nature is deceptive. Its selfish.

The problem isn't subject to your stripper bubble, its subject to consumerism and the premise of our society. The nature of strip clubs just magnifies that fact.

You get it now? Im saying that SCs are inherently flawed.

peace.

I admit you have a point when you put it that way. A sensible guy doesn't believe that strippers like him, but strippers still like to try to make him believe he does (as in any sales situation). Since the guy doesn't know that she doesn't like him, he will often give her the benefit fo the doubt. People like to believe the best. I still get taken in by some good "girl next door" acts, which scarily switch off after they have my money.

Except - capitalism isn't deceptive or selfish, people are, thererore any system people use is also. Capitalism can be unselfish, since it is often in people's self-interests to be unselfish.

I also agree that SCs are inherently flawed. Business combined with unnatural sexual behaviour. Bad combo.

vmurphy252
05-11-2009, 07:36 AM
Capitalism can be unselfish, since it is often in people's self-interests to be unselfish.


This statement has warped my fragile little mind...

Hopper
05-11-2009, 07:39 AM
^I was hoping it would keep Ray preoccupied for a while.