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Earl_the_Pearl
05-29-2009, 07:41 PM
You have a dirty mind sir.

If we didn't all SC would go out of business.

commanderadama
05-30-2009, 01:18 AM
Arrogance often results from lack of proper assessment of situation at hand.

On a separate note, I like to think that I am the only man she has ever known. :)

Hmmm that may mean that you're as delusional as I'm arrogant. ;D

Hopper
05-30-2009, 03:01 AM
Wow, by any measure, this thread is a winner.

Congratulations Jack.

It's only a long thread because so many of us disagree with him.

Earl_the_Pearl
05-30-2009, 08:18 AM
It's only a long thread because so many of us disagree with him.
With who about what. :thinking:

Hopper
05-30-2009, 08:23 AM
^With Jack, about... lots.

JayATee
05-30-2009, 11:44 AM
You keep stressing FORCING and I keep stressing COMPATIBILITY... We are not communicating at the same level... There is no thrill in forcing someone to do something they find degrading, unless you’re sick...

The thrill is in being with someone that finds enjoyment, pleasure and fulfillment in the free exchange of sexual expression with you... That requires some compatibility... If one partner’s version of eroticism is perceived as sick, perverted or degrading by the other partner... this is a serious compatibility problem that is not going to disappear...

You're right. It is going to require you to be creative and find a common ground so that both parties will enjoy. Again, buying books and dvds that stress a role-play she is not comfortable with is doing nothing but forcing what you want into the relationship. There are plenty of fun things to do in bed that don't require your wife to dress up as what amounts to a whore in her opinion. It's not a deal breaker, and it's certainly not a reason to get divorced.


If one partner has a super-high sex drive and the other has a super-low sex drive,... there will be a lot of frustration in the marriage.

If one partner is very sensual and loves whip cream and strawberries, erotic massages, sex toys, sexy outfits and erotic dancing and the other partner has mideival views of sex - will only engage in missionary-position sex and rejects all “kinky” stuff,... there will be a lot of frustration in the marriage. The “kinky” partner will feel suppressed, repressed, guilty, ashamed and very frustrated... Eventually, he or she will find expression somewhere else, with someone else...

Now, assume for a minute that you love to cuddle before and after sex, and you also love whip cream and strawberries, body kisses, erotic massages, tantra, etc., but your boyfriend or husband just gives you 5-minute “bam-slam-thank-you-ma’am” sex and runs back to watch the sports channel... and he does this ALL THE TIME... are you going to be satisfied with that relationship? I know women that have left their boyfriends because of this......

It is not just you in the relationship. There are 2 of you. Find what each of you likes and go from there. Who are you to pass judgement on her? You put way too much emphasis on yourself. TALK to your partner. Find ways for both of you to be satisfied that doesn't involve making ppl uncomfortable. That's a partnership. That's a true relationship. It sounds like you really don't understand this.




My “terms” are very mild - I like whip cream and strawberries, body kisses, erotic massages, oral sex (I give as much as I get), sexy outfits and erotic dancing... The women I’ve date have all been into this and more... (Women tend to be kinkier than guys and want to spend more time doing things in bed.) One girl I dated took up pole dancing, even though I never asked her to. She was very much into dancing and fitness and did it for herself, primarily, but I also got to enjoy the benefit.:)

I don't believe that she took it up without any help from you, or if she did, that it was for you.


I’ve never run across a woman as uptight as Cyril’s wife... If I did, I would respect her 100% and I might even become her best friend,... but NOT her lover or husband... This is not a judgment of her... It is a simple matter of COMPATIBILITY... There are men that she will be compatible with, I am not one of them...

LoL, you have no idea what kind of lover she might be because you wouldnt give her an opportunity to show you because she's too uptight for you. I stand by my last comment. You only have sex with ppl on your terms. Call it whatever you need to to justify it to yourself, it's not a compatibility issue. It's your personal hang-up.




I was married for 10 years... longer than most marriages. Anyway, divorced people are the best to give advice... When you are “in love” you are blind to the elements that are required for a long term relationship... Divorced people can look at a young couple and usually tell if they’re going to make it or not. They know the traits of true compatibility and lack thereof.

I stand by my other comments here too.


Cyril wants more eroticism in his marriage... His sexually uptight wife says she’s going to leave him if he even suggests more eroticism... Now, he is going to SCs and chatting with dancers online,... and wondering if he should seek a mistress... You don’t have to have a Ph.D. in psychology to see where this is heading.

No, she has a problem with the content of what he is suggesting. There are plenty other erotic things to do that don't involve her dressing as a stripper.



I love sexy dancing, it is very erotic to me... What straight guy doesn’t appreciate the female form performing a sultry dance? The SC is the only place you can walk in at any time and see this.

However, I would rather watch my wife or GF dance for me ANYDAY over a dancer at the SC. The SC is actually my last resort... and in the past year, I’ve only averaged about once every couple of months,... and primarily to eat steaks. I haven't been in a SC in the last 4 months.

Furthermore, strippers don’t have a monopoly on erotic dancing... Do some research on this, it wasn’t invented by strippers... (Have you ever heard the Bible story of how John the Baptist lost his head?) I will admit you dancers do a very nice job with it and make great instructional DVDs on this subject. However, women who perform erotic dances for their husbands or Bfs are not “wannabe stripper” and, I can assure you that just because a man enjoys this from his wife or GF, does not mean that he wants her to work in a SC... Nor are women who take pole-dancing or strip-aerobics classes “wannabe stripper”. There is simply a more open-minded attitude towards erotic dancing and a recognition that men are visual creatures and take great delight in it.



Is that before or after you push her into doing it by buying her books and dvds for your enjoyment?

No, I don't believe in the new testament. So your story means nothing to me.

I did not say they all were, I said YOURS were.

Hopper
05-30-2009, 06:29 PM
It's odd that Jack at one time said that role-playing can make sex fun and at other times says it is necessary for sex to be enjoyable at all and the woman is uptight if she doesn't like it. If the woman doesn't like it, then obviously it's not fun for her. Telling her she must do it is like saying "you have to have fun whether you enjoy it or not".

I'm still wondering whether Cyril's complaint about his wife are merely that she won't do strip-teases (and other kinky things) or if she is actually unresponsive even by regular standards. I don't want to pry, but he brought it up and we are discussing it.

Whatever people do for fun, I just don't get this book-and-DVD approach to sex. The whole "adult toy shop" mentality just turns me off - it's so one-dimensional and fake. It's appeal is merely fashion. I don't see why anyone would be unhappy without it.

If I want a good strip-tease, I'll find a good stripper. If there is a good DVD of a strip-tease, I'd rather just watch it myself than tell my SO to try to imitate it.

Cyril
05-31-2009, 06:07 PM
There is a disconnect on how we both approach sex.

JayATee
05-31-2009, 07:22 PM
^ Sounds like you both should get some counseling (and not from books or dvds).

jack0177057
06-01-2009, 09:33 AM
You're right. It is going to require you to be creative and find a common ground so that both parties will enjoy. Again, buying books and dvds that stress a role-play she is not comfortable with is doing nothing but forcing what you want into the relationship. There are plenty of fun things to do in bed that don't require your wife to dress up as what amounts to a whore in her opinion. It's not a deal breaker, and it's certainly not a reason to get divorced.

This is getting confusing... Are you talking about my ex-wife or Cyril's wife? My ex-wife was never "uncomfortable" with anything we did... She was open-minded and creative in bed and that's why we had a great marriage for 10 years... The sexual issues that developed later between us were not because of anything that made her "uncomfortable"... Her sex drive declined significantly and she failed to be sexually responsive to mine... My sex drive continued to be super-high, the way it's always been... I don't know what caused her sex-drive to plummet after 10 years... I tried to be more romantic than ever, etc... I asked her to see a doctor because I thought it might be a hormone imbalance thing.. Nothing worked... If there was a pill to reduce the sex-drive, I would have taken it... but, there wasn't, as far as I know. Our sex drives became irreconcilable... On most days, I would have settled for a five-minute hand-job, but she failed to even accomodate this... HER attitude became uncompromising -- It's "just sex" and I'm not in the mood, just deal with it... I did not just pack up and walk away from my marriage at that point, it took two years for the inevitable to occur.

Cyril sounds like he just recently got married. In my first two years of marraige... my ex-wife and I were having sex like rabbits and there was almost nothing we wouldn't do to pleasure each other... On most days, we had sex twice -- early in the morning and before going to sleep... We were VERY passionate and completely committed to giving each other the ultimate sexual satisfaction within the limits of a monogamous relationship.

If Cyril is having sexual compatibility issues this early in his marriage, there is a SERIOUS problem... The biggest RED FLAG in this is his wife threatening to divorce him for merely expressing something he finds erotic... SHE IS THE ONE ISSUING ULTIMATUMS.

Yes, there could be compromises - she could wear classy lingerie and they could dance TOGETHER, etc. But, SHE is the one WHO IS UNCOMPROMISING. What woman believes that wearing a garter belt makes her look like a whore? Victoria Secrets is as mainstream as Starbucks, I cannot imagine anyone being offended by VS lingerie!

Her ultimatum will cause Cyril suppression, fustration, shame, guilt, resentment, depresion, duplicity, deceit, concealment and betrayal... not the best ingredients for a good marriage...

Your suggestion to him is to deceive his wife and lead a double life -pretend to be sexually satisfied with her, but run off to the SC when he needs a fix of eroticism... Eventually, he will cheat on her, either with a mistress or a prostitute... and she will discover the betrayal - they ALWAYS do. Her pain and hatred will be many times greater than if he had confronted her with the truth early on, because being "dumped" is painful, but being deceived, betrayed and made a fool of for many years is infintely worst... At least, that's what my ex-wife told me.

jack0177057
06-01-2009, 09:48 AM
If I want a good strip-tease, I'll find a good stripper. If there is a good DVD of a strip-tease, I'd rather just watch it myself than tell my SO to try to imitate it.

How is that not a chauvinistic viewpoint? What you are saying is this - You want a nice little wife to keep at home, while you get your eroticism from strippers (and probably prostitutes). As long as your shy and sexually uptight wife is at home cooking, washing your clothes, having babies, and performing all her other "wify" duties,... you don't mind her being boring in bed because you intend to get your sexual gratification elsewhere.

MY WIFE AND PARTNER must be a woman who completes me, and is compatible with me in every significant way, so that I have NEVER HAVE A NEED, WHATSOEVER, to go outside the marriage for sexual thrill or gratification.

JayATee
06-01-2009, 10:33 AM
This is getting confusing... Are you talking about my ex-wife or Cyril's wife? My ex-wife was never "uncomfortable" with anything we did... She was open-minded and creative in bed and that's why we had a great marriage for 10 years... The sexual issues that developed later between us were not because of anything that made her "uncomfortable"... Her sex drive declined significantly and she failed to be sexually responsive to mine... My sex drive continued to be super-high, the way it's always been... I don't know what caused her sex-drive to plummet after 10 years... I tried to be more romantic than ever, etc... I asked her to see a doctor because I thought it might be a hormone imbalance thing.. Nothing worked... If there was a pill to reduce the sex-drive, I would have taken it... but, there wasn't, as far as I know. Our sex drives became irreconcilable... On most days, I would have settled for a five-minute hand-job, but she failed to even accomodate this... HER attitude became uncompromising -- It's "just sex" and I'm not in the mood, just deal with it... I did not just pack up and walk away from my marriage at that point, it took two years for the inevitable to occur.

Cyril sounds like he just recently got married. In my first two years of marraige... my ex-wife and I were having sex like rabbits and there was almost nothing we wouldn't do to pleasure each other... On most days, we had sex twice -- early in the morning and before going to sleep... We were VERY passionate and completely committed to giving each other the ultimate sexual satisfaction within the limits of a monogamous relationship.

If Cyril is having sexual compatibility issues this early in his marriage, there is a SERIOUS problem... The biggest RED FLAG in this is his wife threatening to divorce him for merely expressing something he finds erotic... SHE IS THE ONE ISSUING ULTIMATUMS.

Yes, there could be compromises - she could wear classy lingerie and they could dance TOGETHER, etc. But, SHE is the one WHO IS UNCOMPROMISING. What woman believes that wearing a garter belt makes her look like a whore? Victoria Secrets is as mainstream as Starbucks, I cannot imagine anyone being offended by VS lingerie!

Her ultimatum will cause Cyril suppression, fustration, shame, guilt, resentment, depresion, duplicity, deceit, concealment and betrayal... not the best ingredients for a good marriage...

Your suggestion to him is to deceive his wife and lead a double life -pretend to be sexually satisfied with her, but run off to the SC when he needs a fix of eroticism... Eventually, he will cheat on her, either with a mistress or a prostitute... and she will discover the betrayal - they ALWAYS do. Her pain and hatred will be many times greater than if he had confronted her with the truth early on, because being "dumped" is painful, but being deceived, betrayed and made a fool of for many years is infintely worst... At least, that's what my ex-wife told me.

It's not confusing if you had any idea about women or relationships. Apparently, you do not.

You obviously missed everything else I wrote. I never said for him to decieve his wife. I suggested counseling, and talking, and finding out how they both can become sexualy satisfied. Never did I say he should lie to her about going to a SC. One does not need to lie to his wife if he wants to go to a SC. Why you assume that I meant this just leads me to believe that you're a dishonest person in your relationships. I'm not going reiterate everything I wrote, go back and READ and UNDERSTAND my posts and then perhaps you'll be in a better position to comment. Atm, you once again, don't have a clue what you're talking about.

jack0177057
06-01-2009, 12:46 PM
It's not confusing if you had any idea about women or relationships. Apparently, you do not.

You obviously missed everything else I wrote. I never said for him to decieve his wife. I suggested counceling, and talking, and finding out how they both can become sexualy satisfied. Never did I say he should lie to her about going to a SC. One does not need to lie to his wife if he wants to go to a SC. Why you assume that I meant this just leads me to believe that you're a dishonest person in your relationships. I'm not going reiterate everything I wrote, go back and READ and UNDERSTAND my posts and then perhaps you'll be in a better position to comment. Atm, you once again, don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Actually, I have a great relationship with women... Though, for some reason, you and I are not communicating on the same level... I don't know why my opinions are making you hostile towards me...

But, to show you how conciliatory I am - I will point out to you and Cyril where we have common ground:

I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on this -- counceling, and talking, and finding out how they both can become sexualy satisfied. If I sounded flippant about walking away from the marriage, I apologize, that's not what I meant... Every effort should be made to find some way that "both can become sexualy satisfied". I call this, "sexual compatibility".

Find out why she is sexually uptight... Was she molested as a child? Was she raised believing that carnal passions will cause her to burn in hell? Understand her mental framework and how it was constructed. There may be painful memories or trauma associated with her sexuality. If so, psychological counseling is probably necessary, but be careful how you bring this up -- be extremely delicate with this issue.

Start out with what she feels comfortable and slowly and patiently, get her to relax and shed HER inhibitions. I am not saying "force" her to do anything,... what I am saying is - help HER to feel comfortable with HER OWN sexuality.

Compliment her profusely when she does something new that SHE find pleasure in. Don't focus on what she DOESN'T DO. Instead, focus on what she does do.

Fenriswolf
06-01-2009, 03:17 PM
I just had to go back a few page and see where the Cyril thing started...


I have tried to convince my wife to role play a stripper but she did not show any interest whatsoever. When I pressed the matter, she threatened to divorce me. So, I never brought up the issue again for following reasons:
- I cannot cook
- I cannot do the laundry
- I get depressed when she is not around

Only solution for me would be to get a stripper mistress. But that sounds like a bad idea after reading this forum.
Based soley on this, it doesn't sounds like your wife is "uptight", it sounds like she is controlling. Both partners are entitled to ask to be indulged in sexual fantasies, and both partners are entitled to be too uncomfortable to do it. You can compromise, or you can let the relationship go.

Being depressed when she's not around? Being threatened with divorce for wanting to have her fulfill a fantasy? This is not healthy. Sure, you could have been pushing too hard, I don't know, but I think you really need to examine how happy you are in your relationship in general.

P.S. Everyone gets to learn to cook and do laundry at some point, you would live. ;)

Cyril
06-01-2009, 08:02 PM
I have been married for seven years now. I do not remember exactly when things started going bad but I do remember first few years were very good. Life presented us with numerous trials and we overcame them together. Writing this post feels like a trip down the memory lane. I can remember us enjoying simple things. Things like wine tasting, restaurants, movies and watching TV. Sex was there but it gradually decreased. I think I also share some blame. We both suffer from depression. When I am out of town, she indulges in gambling. I drink to overcome my depression. She says I do not love her. But I do. It is a fact.

In her opinion, I have allowed external things like sex to come between us. And I feel guilty that my dark desire has ruined our bond. I think she is right. There is more to marriage than just sex.

Elvia
06-01-2009, 08:55 PM
Find out why she is sexually uptight... Was she molested as a child? Was she raised believing that carnal passions will cause her to burn in hell? Understand her mental framework and how it was constructed. There may be painful memories or trauma associated with her sexuality. If so, psychological counseling is probably necessary, but be careful how you bring this up -- be extremely delicate with this issue.

Start out with what she feels comfortable and slowly and patiently, get her to relax and shed HER inhibitions. I am not saying "force" her to do anything,... what I am saying is - help HER to feel comfortable with HER OWN sexuality.




Because the only reason someone might not want to engage in some specific sex acts (dress up and erotic dance) is because she's somehow damaged or traumatized?

It sounds like you only see your partner's sexuality as an extension of your own.

Hopper
06-02-2009, 05:48 AM
How is that not a chauvinistic viewpoint? What you are saying is this - You want a nice little wife to keep at home, while you get your eroticism from strippers (and probably prostitutes). As long as your shy and sexually uptight wife is at home cooking, washing your clothes, having babies, and performing all her other "wify" duties,... you don't mind her being boring in bed because you intend to get your sexual gratification elsewhere.

MY WIFE AND PARTNER must be a woman who completes me, and is compatible with me in every significant way, so that I have NEVER HAVE A NEED, WHATSOEVER, to go outside the marriage for sexual thrill or gratification.

I didn't mean (or say) that I want a boring drudge for a wife and erotic stimulation only from strippers and prostitutes. Strippers cater to a male fantasy which no woman should be expected to act out for her partner, although she might really like to. I would not expect my wife to be a professional erotic dancer. I would not buy her DVDs for learning to be one. If I wanted that sort of turn-on, I would watch some other woman who can do it.

You've given yourself away in that post, Jack. You implied that if a woman can't do a good strip-tease, then she is totally uptight about sex. You equate sex with kinky games. This is a type of ultimatum too. That last paragraph also reads like an ultimatum - like it's all about you. You want the "ultimate" sexual experience.

In your comments about Cyril in your previous post, you make strip-tease into such a big deal. If Cyril is going to suffer that much psychological harm from being denied a strip-tease, then he can forget abot sexual fulfilment altogether because he must be dickless - not even a man at all. On it's own, his wife's refusal to strip-tease would be at worst a quirk like any of us might have. But Cyril has told us there is a sexual disconnect on both sides, so strip-tease is really the least of their worries and the problem is with both of them.

Try to get it, Jack: There is more to sex than dress-ups, kinks, changing positions, etc etc. If your idea of "sensual" is licking cream off your SO, then you've never really HAD sex. If the kind of expectations your are trying to give Cyril are the kind you had for your wife, and your sexual relations were really this superficial, it's no wonder she lost interest. I'm not being "New Age" here, I just think that women are sexy enough without the games and that sex is not purely physical, there is romantic feeling also.

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 07:11 AM
both partners are entitled to ask to be indulged in sexual fantasies, and both partners are entitled to be too uncomfortable to do it. You can compromise, or you can let the relationship go.

yes!!! Absolutely!!!

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 07:40 AM
I didn't mean (or say) that I want a boring drudge for a wife and erotic stimulation only from strippers and prostitutes. Strippers cater to a male fantasy which no woman should be expected to act out for her partner, although she might really like to.

Dude, you are so chauvinistic and antiquated it's not even funny. You hold the same views my great-grandfather did:. "Marry a prude virgin to be the mother of your children, but go to whores for sex and pleasure."

You perpetuate the slut v. virgin myth. You want a "virgin" for a wife, but you think only a "slut" can fulfill your sexual fantasies.

Every woman (and every man) is part "virgin" and part "slut", I don't understand why you think a wife could not fulfill her husband's fantasies! What is so hard or degrading about erotic dancing? My ex-wife fulfilled ALL my sexual fantasies (within the bounds of a monagomous relationship), and she was an actual "pure and immaculate" virgin when we first met. She taught me how to fulfill her sexual fantasies and I taught her how to fulfill mine. In fact, every girlfriend I've had has fulfilled my fantasies and I have also indulged theirs.

It's just like Fenriswolf said, "Both partners are entitled to ask to be indulged in sexual fantasies, and both partners are entitled to be too uncomfortable to do it. You can compromise, or you can let the relationship go."

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 07:49 AM
Because the only reason someone might not want to engage in some specific sex acts (dress up and erotic dance) is because she's somehow damaged or traumatized?

It sounds like you only see your partner's sexuality as an extension of your own.

In my experience, women don't get offended if their BF or husband buys them sexy lingerie or threaten to leave their husband merely because he asked her to give him a strip-tease.

This is a very harsh response to a very mild request.

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 08:17 AM
In her opinion, I have allowed external things like sex to come between us. And I feel guilty that my dark desire has ruined our bond. I think she is right. There is more to marriage than just sex.

You seriously need outside help... She sees sex as "just sex"... But, it is NOT "just sex" to you (and probably not to her, either)... You are sexual creature and sex is CENTRAL to your human identity, expression and validation... John Gray, author of Men are From Mars and Women are From Venus, explains this dichotomy in the perception of the meaning of sex, as viewed by men v. women (generally, though it can be the other way around).

Earl_the_Pearl
06-02-2009, 11:52 AM
Strippers cater to a male fantasy which no woman should be expected to act out for her partner, although she might really like to.

That statement is very telling. So even is a women wants to act like a stripper with her partner she should not? What if she is a stripper; should she play the role of a fringed genophobe?

JayATee
06-02-2009, 02:40 PM
In my experience, women don't get offended if their BF or husband buys them sexy lingerie or threaten to leave their husband merely because he asked her to give him a strip-tease.

This is a very harsh response to a very mild request.

While I'm sure you think you know all the women in the world somehow I doubt it. Some women don't like the whole idea of a striptease. There's nothing wrong with that. Your opinion is irrelevant. If she's not comfortable with it, she's not comfortable with it.

Elvia
06-02-2009, 02:49 PM
In my experience, women don't get offended if their BF or husband buys them sexy lingerie or threaten to leave their husband merely because he asked her to give him a strip-tease.

This is a very harsh response to a very mild request.

Actually, that's not what he said. He said that first she just said no. She threatened to leave him when he continued to push the issue. If I had a partner who continually pushed me to do things I was uncomfortable with, I'd consider leaving him too.

Elvia
06-02-2009, 02:54 PM
That statement is very telling. So even is a women wants to act like a stripper with her partner she should not? What if she is a stripper; should she play the role of a fringed genophobe?

What H said was that no woman should be *expected* to. If she wants to, that's another story. But it shouldn't be an expectation within a relationship.

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 03:11 PM
While I'm sure you think you know all the women in the world somehow I doubt it. Some women don't like the whole idea of a striptease. There's nothing wrong with that.

You're right, there is nothing wrong with that... And there is nothing wrong with my personal preference for those that "indulge" my fantasies a little. (To borrow Fenriswolf's phrase.)

You love to debate,... don't you...;) A good passionate debate can be nearly as exciting as sex. I like you...:)

Elvia
06-02-2009, 03:18 PM
^ We're not talking about your personal preferences, Jack. We're talking about a woman who's married to someone else, and her comfort level.

It sounds more and more like you can't separate between YOUR sexuality and others, and that deep down you don't see women as people in their own right, but sex dolls that are here only to satisfy men (or you). Somehow, I don't think your obsession with strippers has much to do with them being "strong, independent" women at all.

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 03:27 PM
Actually, that's not what he said. He said that first she just said no. She threatened to leave him when he continued to push the issue. If I had a partner who continually pushed me to do things I was uncomfortable with, I'd consider leaving him too.

So she can leave HIM, but he cannot leave HER? There is two ways of seeing this:
(1) He is a sick pervert and selfish bastard for asking her to degrade herself by acting like a whore, or
(2) As Fenriswolf observed - she is controlling and refuses to indulge her husband in an innocent little fantasy.

Either way you see it, they are not sexually compatible and should not be together... There are other men for her, who will not ask her to degrade herself... And there are other women for him, who will indulge him in his fantasy...

Elvia
06-02-2009, 03:37 PM
You don't see a problem with ending a marriage over one unfulfilled fantasy?

And no, the problem is not that he asked- the problem is that he continued to push for it after she made it clear she wasn't comfortable. A difference you seem to be incapable of understanding no matter how many times it's spelled out for you.

You can only see this in extremes? I don't think either one is as bad as you paint it. C himself has made it clear he's not interested in divorcing her over this. And rightly so. If everyone dumped their partner every time they couldn't have sex exactly on their own terms, you'd have the whole world getting divorced. Not getting your way over every little thing does not equal being completely incompatible. But it would to a narsicist.

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 03:52 PM
It sounds more and more like you can't separate between YOUR sexuality and others, and that deep down you don't see women as people in their own right, but sex dolls that are here only to satisfy men (or you). Somehow, I don't think you're obsession with strippers has much to do with them being "strong, independent" women at all.

That's not true at all. This discussion is about indulging fantasies and I have said many times over that I love to indulge my lover's fantasies as much as I like my own fantasies indulged.

Sensuality is a really big part of my life... Not just because I like to be indulged, but also because I love to indulge my lover... I could give you a list of books and DVD's that I HAVE READ or WATCHED that concern female sexuality... For example, I've bought DVDs from Sinclair Institute that are very educational about pleasuring a women with sensual touching, kissing, massages, etc. I've read She Comes First by Ian Kerner, etc.

I have NEVER been a "bam-slam-thank-you-ma'am" kind of guy... I am commited to the sensual pampering and sexual satisfaction of my romantic partner. However, I also need sexual pampering and indulgence in return. This need is a central part of my human existence.

jack0177057
06-02-2009, 04:08 PM
You don't see a problem with ending a marriage over one unfulfilled fantasy?

Did you read what I wrote before?


I ABSOLUTELY agree with you on this -- counceling, and talking, and finding out how they both can become sexualy satisfied. If I sounded flippant about walking away from the marriage, I apologize, that's not what I meant... Every effort should be made to find some way that "both can become sexualy satisfied". I call this, "sexual compatibility".
Find out why she is sexually uptight... Was she molested as a child? Was she raised believing that carnal passions will cause her to burn in hell? Understand her mental framework and how it was constructed. There may be painful memories or trauma associated with her sexuality. If so, psychological counseling is probably necessary, but be careful how you bring this up -- be extremely delicate with this issue.
Start out with what she feels comfortable and slowly and patiently, get her to relax and shed HER inhibitions. I am not saying "force" her to do anything,... what I am saying is - help HER to feel comfortable with HER OWN sexuality.
Compliment her profusely when she does something new that SHE find pleasure in. Don't focus on what she DOESN'T DO. Instead, focus on what she does do.

Also, the problem is not just "one unfulfilled fantasy":


There is a disconnect on how we both approach sex.


I have been married for seven years now. I do not remember exactly when things started going bad but I do remember first few years were very good. Life presented us with numerous trials and we overcame them together. Writing this post feels like a trip down the memory lane. I can remember us enjoying simple things. Things like wine tasting, restaurants, movies and watching TV. Sex was there but it gradually decreased. I think I also share some blame. We both suffer from depression. When I am out of town, she indulges in gambling. I drink to overcome my depression. She says I do not love her. But I do. It is a fact.
In her opinion, I have allowed external things like sex to come between us. And I feel guilty that my dark desire has ruined our bond. I think she is right. There is more to marriage than just sex.

Sex has become "just sex" to her... like doing the laundry or washing dishes... But to him, the need for sexual touch, pampering and indulgence is very significant... The rejection, frustration and depression is not just going to go away because you tell him he is a selfish and narcissistic bastard.

Earl_the_Pearl
06-02-2009, 04:52 PM
What H said was that no woman should be *expected* to. If she wants to, that's another story. But it shouldn't be an expectation within a relationship.
This is what he said.

Strippers cater to a male fantasy which no woman should be expected to act out for her partner, although she might really like to.I read it as even if the women wants to play stripper she should not. Perhaps the OP will clarify.

As for exceptions in a relationship there should be none. Even if there are vows made before god they are not worth the paper they are printed on.

When it comes to man women relationships it is better to avoid legally entangling alliances with expectations. I expect nothing in a relationship and so should the other party.

JayATee
06-02-2009, 05:28 PM
Did you read what I wrote before?



Also, the problem is not just "one unfulfilled fantasy":





Sex has become "just sex" to her... like doing the laundry or washing dishes... But to him, the need for sexual touch, pampering and indulgence is very significant... The rejection, frustration and depression is not just going to go away because you tell him he is a selfish and narcissistic bastard.

Where do you get this crap? Do you personally know her? Them? Their relationship? How they are together? How are you in any position to make these comments? He has said there is a sexual disconnect on BOTH sides.

commanderadama
06-02-2009, 09:10 PM
When it comes to man women relationships it is better to avoid legally entangling alliances with expectations. I expect nothing in a relationship and so should the other party.

Hmmm Sounds like you agree with my hypothesis that the only good relationship with a woman is a short one... }:D

The Jackster is all over the map. He starts this epic thread on tips to picking up "hot women" then tells us his wife was hot (I assume she was not) They were great, then they weren't. Now he doesn't remember how he picked up his hot wife. In another thread he says he's got a big house with a pool, throws a party and hot girls appear.

The formula is quite simple, figure out which type of girl you want, go to where that type hangs out, have money. A flashy car will get you lots of attention, exotic sports cars work well. If your from a small city a new Corvette will do, small town, new Mustang, big city you're gonna need a Porsche or better. I'm from a small city, my car's been hit on at the gas station, while BF is filling up his POS next to me, it's sad. ::)

Hopper
06-03-2009, 01:50 AM
Dude, you are so chauvinistic and antiquated it's not even funny. You hold the same views my great-grandfather did:. "Marry a prude virgin to be the mother of your children, but go to whores for sex and pleasure."

You perpetuate the slut v. virgin myth. You want a "virgin" for a wife, but you think only a "slut" can fulfill your sexual fantasies.

Every woman (and every man) is part "virgin" and part "slut", I don't understand why you think a wife could not fulfill her husband's fantasies! What is so hard or degrading about erotic dancing? My ex-wife fulfilled ALL my sexual fantasies (within the bounds of a monagomous relationship), and she was an actual "pure and immaculate" virgin when we first met. She taught me how to fulfill her sexual fantasies and I taught her how to fulfill mine. In fact, every girlfriend I've had has fulfilled my fantasies and I have also indulged theirs.

It's just like Fenriswolf said, "Both partners are entitled to ask to be indulged in sexual fantasies, and both partners are entitled to be too uncomfortable to do it. You can compromise, or you can let the relationship go."

Jack, you should be tied to a chair and made to listen to recordings of yourself talking for three days. I corrected you in the post you quoted from and you misinterpretted it the same way a second time.

I did not say that a man should get no sexual stimulation from his wife and get it from prostitutes instead. I don't even know how men can get pleasing sex from prostitutes unless they are highly-paid ones. Even then there is no real intimacy, which is the thing you are always playing down here. You are like a horny teenager. I'd say your wife simply outgrew you.

A wife is not a slut - not even partly. A slut has sex with whoever she pleases. If your wife is having sex with you, it's not casual sex and she's not being a slut, regardlesss of how you do it.

The point I was making about male fantasies is that women don't naturally behave in a way that caters to every male desire. That is why strip clubs are successful. Have you ever been anywhere else where women walk about in lingerie and dance and strip on stage and where you can pick any woman you want for a private dance? Do women behave in real life the way you fantasise them behaving?

I'm not saying that erotic dancing is necessarily degrading. However, certain women are naturally not comfortable with it. Some may think it's whorish, some may just not think they can do it well. Maybe it's just not their personality. That is what you quoted Fenriswolf as saying - they are entitled.

All I was saying was that if you want a good strip-tease, and your wife won't do it, go to s strip club. Your wife can stimulate you in ways a stripper or prostitute never could. Be happy with that. The kinky stuff isn't all-important, not even mainly important, and is no reason not to be married to a woman who fulfills you in more important ways.

Hopper
06-03-2009, 01:59 AM
That statement is very telling. So even is a women wants to act like a stripper with her partner she should not? What if she is a stripper; should she play the role of a fringed genophobe?

My point was (I realise I worded it a little wrongly) that women don't behave in the ways men would like them to in a fantasy world. You've seen those types of TV advertisements where a guy drinks a brand of soft drink or beer, or drives a certain car, uses a brand of aftershave etc, and suddenly eight hot girls appear from nowhere and start flirting, dancing and stripping in public just for him and he takes them all home at the same time.

Yeah, that never happens. Even wives don't do it (you can't even have more than one wife). But if they are willing and able to act their SOs fantasies out for them, lucky SOs.

Hopper
06-03-2009, 02:18 AM
...

Sensuality is a really big part of my life... Not just because I like to be indulged, but also because I love to indulge my lover... I could give you a list of books and DVD's that I HAVE READ or WATCHED that concern female sexuality... For example, I've bought DVDs from Sinclair Institute that are very educational about pleasuring a women with sensual touching, kissing, massages, etc. I've read She Comes First by Ian Kerner, etc.

I have NEVER been a "bam-slam-thank-you-ma'am" kind of guy... I am commited to the sensual pampering and sexual satisfaction of my romantic partner. However, I also need sexual pampering and indulgence in return. This need is a central part of my human existence.

But it's still about physical satisfaction for you. You sound like a mechanic. All you are doing is saying that you will do it for her if she does it for you, on a purely phyxical level. You don't seem to feel anything for your SOs, in the bedroom or out.

I suspect that this may be Cyril's wife's complaint about his "dark desires", which I'm guessing are the kinky sex fantasies he mentionned earlier. I get the impression it's not that his wife is treating sex as "just sex", but that she is complaining that Cyril is fixating on sex as a kinky physical experience to the exclusion of other things which would indirectly make sex more meaningful for a couple.

Sorry if I am speculating too much, Cyril, I'm just responding to other people's speculations.

Jezzebelle
06-03-2009, 03:48 AM
"Originally Posted by jack0177057
...

Sensuality is a really big part of my life... Not just because I like to be indulged, but also because I love to indulge my lover... I could give you a list of books and DVD's that I HAVE READ or WATCHED that concern female sexuality... For example, I've bought DVDs from Sinclair Institute that are very educational about pleasuring a women with sensual touching, kissing, massages, etc. I've read She Comes First by Ian Kerner, etc.

I have NEVER been a "bam-slam-thank-you-ma'am" kind of guy... I am commited to the sensual pampering and sexual satisfaction of my romantic partner. However, I also need sexual pampering and indulgence in return. This need is a central part of my human existence."

Eughw! I hate it when men talk like that, makes me wanna vomit.
`Pleasuring a woman`? `Indulge` ? Eughw *shudders*

Earl_the_Pearl
06-03-2009, 08:15 AM
A flashy car will get you lots of attention, exotic sports cars work well. If your from a small city a new Corvette will do, small town, new Mustang, big city you're gonna need a Porsche or better.

In some circles just having a car will do. :O

Jezzebelle
06-03-2009, 08:59 AM
^^^
*sniggers*

CFMNH44
06-03-2009, 11:51 AM
In some circles just having a car will do. :O

Hey! I got a car! Several... (In voice from the commercial for the car refinance company where the carless dude is hitting on the lady gassing her car...) :)

"C - student of women

Earl_the_Pearl
06-03-2009, 12:14 PM
Hey! I got a car!
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sockmoushand.jpgIt was the old Pets dot Com sock puppet in his new job selling car loans that said that line.

Fenriswolf
06-04-2009, 12:32 AM
In her opinion, I have allowed external things like sex to come between us. And I feel guilty that my dark desire has ruined our bond. I think she is right. There is more to marriage than just sex.
Cyril, desire is not "dark". Sex is not bad. And guilt is not healthy. If you are constantly pressuring her to do things she's not comfortable with, you are behaving in a manipulative and abusive manner. If she is belittling you whenever you express interest in sex at all, she is behaving in an abusive manner.

I am in a relationship with someone with very different sexual tastes from me. It is frustrating, but I do not have the right to push my kinks on him. Ultimately though, it might be a barrier that ends our relationship (we have been together 6 years). I hope not, and I will do everything I can to keep us together because I love and adore him, and he is sexy and great in bed. But as it stands, either I live with him being vanilla, I manage to find a way of working in Ds power play without intimidating him, or I leave him. This is not an issue with either of us - it is a reality you have to examine and deal with.

No one is a bad person for their sexual preference, you just need to be honest with yourself and each other, and not use sex for power.


In my experience, women don't get offended if their BF or husband buys them sexy lingerie or threaten to leave their husband merely because he asked her to give him a strip-tease.

This is a very harsh response to a very mild request.
I have to agree that asking if she's been sexually abused, or rather leaping to that conclusion, is way off base. Sexual abuse can have many effects on a person's sexuality, but having it implied that your sexuality is wrong because of what was inflicted upon you is just not OK.

We don't know how he approached her. He may have pushed and pushed until she got irritated with him. Or it may be that she uses the threat of taking away her love to control him. The fact he said he is depressed without her around makes me wonder about the latter but we can't know.

Some people just like cuddling and vanilla sex. And that's great! They're even entitled to be disgusted by the idea of stripping (personally, not for other people). It's more the judgement and control of your partner's desires that worries me.

jack0177057
06-04-2009, 07:41 AM
tells us his wife was hot (I assume she was not)

What, you want me to prove it to you with pictures? I would, but you sound like a jerkoff, so I'm not going to give you a pic for you to jerk off to.


Now he doesn't remember how he picked up his hot wife.

You must be dyslexic, I explained in detail how I picked her up.


In another thread he says he's got a big house with a pool, throws a party and hot girls appear.

Yes, try it. It's by far the easiest way to meet women... They literally come to you. What is so hard to understand about that?


The formula is quite simple, figure out which type of girl you want, go to where that type hangs out, have money. A flashy car will get you lots of attention, exotic sports cars work well. If your from a small city a new Corvette will do, small town, new Mustang, big city you're gonna need a Porsche or better. I'm from a small city, my car's been hit on at the gas station, while BF is filling up his POS next to me, it's sad. ::)

I like my pool party idea better, I don't even have to drive or leave my house... You sound like one of those guys that gets all guido-d up, showers himself with cologne and drives around for hours (or sits for hours at the gas station) hoping a hot girl will spot you driving your car and be impressed...

jack0177057
06-04-2009, 08:40 AM
Cyril, desire is not "dark". Sex is not bad. And guilt is not healthy. If you are constantly pressuring her to do things she's not comfortable with, you are behaving in a manipulative and abusive manner. If she is belittling you whenever you express interest in sex at all, she is behaving in an abusive manner.

Yes, exactly... I thought the era of sexual guilt, shame and repression was over, but apparently it's not... Thank you, Fenriswolf...


I am in a relationship with someone with very different sexual tastes from me. It is frustrating, but I do not have the right to push my kinks on him. Ultimately though, it might be a barrier that ends our relationship (we have been together 6 years). I hope not, and I will do everything I can to keep us together because I love and adore him, and he is sexy and great in bed. But as it stands, either I live with him being vanilla, I manage to find a way of working in Ds power play without intimidating him, or I leave him. This is not an issue with either of us - it is a reality you have to examine and deal with.

I'm sorry about your situation... I hope you guys figure out a compromise that works out...

My point throughout this discussion has been that: (A) sexual compatibility is ESSENTIAL in a romantic relationship... and (B) if sexual incompatibility is FORCING YOU TO CHOOSE between terminating the relationship or going outside the marriage for sexual satisfaction, the most noble and honorable of these two choices is to terminate the relationship.

I have learned a few important things from this thread:

First of all, people have varying sex drives. Mine is very high. I am not going to apologize to anyone about that, and I cannot change it, even if I wanted to. Therefore, my romantic partner MUST have a sex drive that can match mine.

Second of all, sex means different things to different people. To some, sex is "just sex" - a mechanical thing couples do until semen shoots out of the penis. To me, sex is an expression of love, fantasy and creativity. I like to spend a long time with foreplay and afterplay. I like to pamper and be pampered. Therefore, my romantic partner MUST have a similar approach to sex.

Third, different people have different levels of sexual fantasies, fetishes and "kinks", I would call myself "mildly kinky" and open-minded.... But, I've met women that are WAY kinkier than me. It is ABSOLUTELY WRONG to judge people for their sexual preferences or what they consider to be erotic, as long as it involves CONSENTING ADULTS. Sexual compatibility is the most important in this respect, so that neither person feels pressure to do something they find repulsive -- or -- shame for wanting (and needing) what the other person regards as "dark" and perverted. I CANNOT be with a lover that finds my sexual fantasies and kinks repulsive, because this incompatibility will lead to mutual frustration and dissatisfaction.

My persecutors make me out like I want a sex slave for a lover or wife...
Not at all,... I want a SEX GODDESS to worship!

commanderadama
06-04-2009, 05:22 PM
What, you want me to prove it to you with pictures? I would, but you sound like a jerkoff, so I'm not going to give you a pic for you to jerk off to.

I can guarantee that I will think she's hideous. I wasn't saying I'd find her hot, I was saying that the people on the board wouldn't find her hot so post a nice clothed picture of her, hell block out the face if you want. 8)


Yes, try it. It's by far the easiest way to meet women... They literally come to you. What is so hard to understand about that?

This seems implausible. Having a pool is not a novelty, or perhaps they are in the fly over states? Where I live every other house has one, so a girls response here would be "so"? LOL. Gotta have a boat here sparky.




I like my pool party idea better, I don't even have to drive or leave my house... You sound like one of those guys that gets all guido-d up, showers himself with cologne and drives around for hours (or sits for hours at the gas station) hoping a hot girl will spot you driving your car and be impressed...

Pool party? Then why did you start this thread studly?

On me? You're Not even close. My type of girl and your type of girl are probably polar opposites as we hang in different sets.

I go to Hed Kandi parties, mixed clubs (know what that means? haha, it's where the hottest my type girls are...) and upscale clubs which are usually mixed too. But I also "slum it", and feel comfortable with blue collar folks and I prefer women from that class. They just have a hard time dealing with my world as I don't do and am not interested in anything middle class. I have a library, I hate malls, Disneyland, Las Vegas and Hawaii. I won't eat at chains or buffets and my Favorite Vacation spots are Montreal, Nice, Monte Carlo, San Francisco & NYC. Do you even have a passport Jack? :)

I peg you as middle class all the way, no library, probably a subscription to Maxim or Playboy, favorite restaurant is some boring chain, you drive a import sedan (most likely Japanese) Three bedroom ranch plain Jane house with an above ground pool (middle class staple) ::) Favorite Vacation spot, something "all inclusive" (a huge tell that you're 100% middle class) like a cruise or a resort. How'd I do? LOL

I'd say end thread jack now, but this whole thread is a huge Jack. ;)

A_Guy
06-04-2009, 05:39 PM
personal attacks aside, this whole thread is a colossal waste of time.

The original intent of the thread was questionable at best, but now it's a complete joke.

One vote to close this down

commanderadama
06-04-2009, 06:56 PM
personal attacks aside, this whole thread is a colossal waste of time.

The original intent of the thread was questionable at best, but now it's a complete joke.

One vote to close this down


Where are the personal attacks?

FBR
06-04-2009, 08:33 PM
Thank you all for your participation.

FBR