View Full Version : Just how rife is the abuse of strippers by customers?
Golden_Rule
05-06-2009, 10:36 PM
Good idea then they can meet at another club. I do find it interesting that I know of only one dancer that had even partial ownership in a club. /:O
D at the WW owns the club with H, her S.O., and she's a retired dancer.
As a result it is one of the two or three clubs in NJ that still pays set fees and the dancers like working there because the place is full of regulars [myself included] who treat them well. The money isn't great though as it closes around 7pm on weeknights and 9-10pm on Friday and Saturday [closed Sunday] and there are no LDs. Not even table dances. Just stage.
The place even has decent eats [D cooks :) ].
Earl_the_Pearl
05-07-2009, 01:53 PM
D at the WW owns the club with H, her S.O., and she's a retired dancer.
My souses tell me D is not an owner just the manager of this Broadway "club". She sure can cook though.
Djoser
05-08-2009, 02:33 AM
I've personally found that there is about the same amount of groping everywhere, from high end to low end (and I've worked the spectrum). Of course, touching IN GENERAL happens more in cities that allow touching to begin with (i.e. if the city has laws that prevent touching there will be less of it even in 'extras' clubs). I've also found that clubs run by somewhat shady men tend to have more touching...I've literally worked at clubs in which I'm the ONLY girl on shift who wouldn't suck a dick. It sucks, figuratively speaking, because you have all these men refuse dances from you and the ones that DO buy them spend the whole dance whining about wanting their dick sucked.
In terms of the bouncers having my back, I personally never relie on them because I've mostly found that they don't do anything at all to help.
I've worked in clubs like this, where you might have 2-3 girls out of 30 or more who aren't sucking dick. These clubs are brutal environments, make no mistake about it. It is incredibly hard on the women--both the ones who do suck dick, and the ones who don't.
The guys who say 'Hey, no one's getting hurt. The women are willing to suck dick for 20$ a song (or even less during dance specials, I can assure you it happens all over), and the guys are willing to pay it, where's the harm in that?' Sounds nice and easy and benign, doesn't it?
Now ask the same guy if he heard about his daughter sucking your dick last night for 10 fucking dollars, and see what he says. Totally different reaction, I guarantee it.
Even in the very strict clubs, and thank all the gods there are a few--like the last two I have worked in--the women have to deal with a nonstop flow of abusive assholes. The average woman couldn't handle working even in a strict, clean club for more than a few hours, if that.
There's something about a stripclub--the minute your average slightly pushy, cocky guy* walks in the door, he turns into an asshole. The assholes turn into flaming pricks who'd be beaten senseless if they tried the same shit on the street, that they pull without batting an eye in the clubs.
Only a woman with a very thick skin and a heart of steel (and preferably a sense of humor) can survive. She might have a tender heart for her kids or pets or husband or whatever, outside of work--but in the club tenderness will get you squashed flat.
I am saying this as a man who used to be an occasional customer, who had dancers try to pull shit on me and con me and bullshit me, etc., sure. The stripclubs are very predatory environments, to be sure, and it does go both ways. But generally speaking, it's a lot harder on the women. It didn't take me long to pick up on that, trust me. I've seen way too many women in the dressing room or in my booth, crying hysterically, shaking with barely restrained rage, or sometimes just literally catatonic. You don't see customers like that...
Better management would go a long, long way towards alleviating the problem, this has been proven to me by my experience working in the stricter clubs. But still, most women could never handle it even there.
*as opposed to your average gentlemanly type guy, sadly outnumbered in some areas and clubs.
Hopper
05-08-2009, 02:42 AM
^I probably wouldn't find girls who are willing to suck my dick attractive enough to have LDs with - or attractive enough to suck my dick.
Are you saying (in your last sentence) that all strip clubs are really rough for the dancers - because of the pricks?
Djoser
05-08-2009, 03:37 AM
That is precisely what I am saying.
In clarification, with distressing frequency management are pricks as well, and that is a very large part of the problem.
And you would be surprised. There are some really, truly stunning women sucking dick for 20$ a song.
Hopper
05-08-2009, 03:41 AM
^I am surprised. But don't want them sucking my dick after they've been sucking other patron's dicks.
Interested to hear more about the bad experiences.
CuriousB
05-08-2009, 04:42 AM
I've worked in clubs like this, where you might have 2-3 girls out of 30 or more who aren't sucking dick. These clubs are brutal environments, make no mistake about it. It is incredibly hard on the women--both the ones who do suck dick, and the ones who don't.
The guys who say 'Hey, no one's getting hurt. The women are willing to suck dick for 20$ a song (or even less during dance specials, I can assure you it happens all over), and the guys are willing to pay it, where's the harm in that?' Sounds nice and easy and benign, doesn't it?
Now ask the same guy if he heard about his daughter sucking your dick last night for 10 fucking dollars, and see what he says. Totally different reaction, I guarantee it.
Even in the very strict clubs, and thank all the gods there are a few--like the last two I have worked in--the women have to deal with a nonstop flow of abusive assholes. The average woman couldn't handle working even in a strict, clean club for more than a few hours, if that.
There's something about a stripclub--the minute your average slightly pushy, cocky guy* walks in the door, he turns into an asshole. The assholes turn into flaming pricks who'd be beaten senseless if they tried the same shit on the street, that they pull without batting an eye in the clubs.
Only a woman with a very thick skin and a heart of steel (and preferably a sense of humor) can survive. She might have a tender heart for her kids or pets or husband or whatever, outside of work--but in the club tenderness will get you squashed flat.
I am saying this as a man who used to be an occasional customer, who had dancers try to pull shit on me and con me and bullshit me, etc., sure. The stripclubs are very predatory environments, to be sure, and it does go both ways. But generally speaking, it's a lot harder on the women. It didn't take me long to pick up on that, trust me. I've seen way too many women in the dressing room or in my booth, crying hysterically, shaking with barely restrained rage, or sometimes just literally catatonic. You don't see customers like that...
Better management would go a long, long way towards alleviating the problem, this has been proven to me by my experience working in the stricter clubs. But still, most women could never handle it even there.
*as opposed to your average gentlemanly type guy, sadly outnumbered in some areas and clubs.
Jeez, I know the occasional extra is available where I go but they are upmarket place and I'm the guy who during lap dances sits with my hands far out to the sides and only ever touches the girls when they place my hands on their bodies and only there. Yet this post has made me feel like a serial rapist.
Earl_the_Pearl
05-08-2009, 02:12 PM
Yet this post has made me feel like a serial rapist.Why? It is the oldest profession in the world. The customer does not force the dancer to do anything she does not want to do for money.
Otoki
05-08-2009, 02:53 PM
Jeez, I know the occasional extra is available where I go but they are upmarket place and I'm the guy who during lap dances sits with my hands far out to the sides and only ever touches the girls when they place my hands on their bodies and only there. Yet this post has made me feel like a serial rapist.
? I don't get why you feel this way. If you behave and follow the dancer's rules, you're not making them unhappy.
I feel very lucky, after reading DJoser's post, that i work in two relatively strict, clean, friendly clubs with super supportive and protective staff.
Last night some guy called a few dancers whores because they told him he couldn't smack a girl's ass (which he did, TWICE) and he was kicked out immediately. His friends were apologetic (and told they were welcome back without him) but management wasn't letting a fucker like that stay in the club. Even without the ass slapping (which automatically gets you kicked out of my club) disrespecting the dancers like that means they open the door with your face as they remove you from the club.
Consequently, there are very few true assholes that we have to deal with on a regular basis. The days where I am shaking with rage because someone was amazingly rude are extremely rare, and were mostly during the months pre-dating the election.::)
Djoser
05-08-2009, 03:32 PM
Jeez, I know the occasional extra is available where I go but they are upmarket place and I'm the guy who during lap dances sits with my hands far out to the sides and only ever touches the girls when they place my hands on their bodies and only there. Yet this post has made me feel like a serial rapist.
Not my intention at all. Sounds like you are a gentleman and would be most welcome in any club I have worked in. I was answering the question posed by the OP, and trying to edify others who might be unaware of the kind of shit the women go through.
Why? It is the oldest profession in the world. The customer does not force the dancer to do anything she does not want to do for money.
Are you equating the profession of prostitution with the profession of stripping?
Obviously there are strippers who are also prostitutes, we all know that--but your post seems to gloss over the very real and very large distinction between women who want no part of 20$ blowjobs, and those who are on their knees for it.
Paris
05-08-2009, 03:53 PM
Why? It is the oldest profession in the world. The customer does not force the dancer to do anything she does not want to do for money.
No, the customers don't force the girls to do things they don't want to, but sometimes club management tries to force the girls into a financial corner. We are talking about young women here, that frequently don't know that they have the right to leave a bad situation, fearing arrest or other legal repercussions for not complying with the demands of the management.
FYI, I've walked out of an illegal situation twice. Management threatened legal action both times. I told them to "bring it!" They knew as well as I that anything involving a judge wouldn't end well for a club with that kind of atmosphere.
Earl_the_Pearl
05-08-2009, 04:55 PM
Are you equating the profession of prostitution with the profession of stripping?
No I don't but my comment was to someone that said he felt like a rapist.
FYI, I've walked out of an illegal situation twice. Management threatened legal action both times. I told them to "bring it!" They knew as well as I that anything involving a judge wouldn't end well for a club with that kind of atmosphere.
What kind of legal action and for what, breach of contract?
Paris
05-08-2009, 05:47 PM
What kind of legal action and for what, breach of contract?
Yep. They also threatened to sue for house fees for the unfinished contract period. ::) Some clubs have $100 per day no-show fees.
Here's the real issue in these situations, many girls get themselves trapped into these situations. There was a club in Alaska that was notorious for doing this. They would pay for air fare to the club, the girls would arrive totally broke and stay at the club's dancer housing. Since the girls didn't have any money, they were stuck working as hookers in the club just to feed themselves. Management would throw them in VIP with customers that were promised "extras" by the bouncers, and the girls were instructed to give (this is how I was told to give laps at this club) "He likes his dances really, really dirty." Barf.
So think about this, girls who are dead broke, thousands of miles from home, unable to call family for help for fear of ostrization are essentially forced to go waaaaayyyyy beyond what they had expected the job involved. I lasted 4 days at the Alaska club I mentioned. On the day I arrived, there was a girl bawling her eyes out at the condo warning the new arrivals to go home now, to get away before it's too late.
I wasn't broke, and I knew that the contract was just paper and really meant nothing. I did very few extras (I let some customers touch, and I engaged in friction dances). By the end of my 4th shift I was bawling my eyes out, too. There was a bouncer that lived in the dancer condo to make sure the girls didn't wander off. Luckily, he wasn't a prison warden and I was able to leave the next morning at about 8am, and get out of town with another girl that was in the house. I bought her plane ticket home too, as she was one of the dead broke ones I had mentioned.
It's actually a pretty interesting story, my Alaskan stripper adventure. It may have been tragic, though, if I had been in a financially desperate situation.
Golden_Rule
05-08-2009, 07:37 PM
My souses tell me D is not an owner just the manager of this Broadway "club". She sure can cook though.
You know, it is fairly likely we've bumped into each other considering the places we both know fairly well.
But as far as I know D & H are the actual owners. :) [Not that I couldn't ever be wrong... it has to happen someday. :D j/k ]
Golden_Rule
05-08-2009, 07:48 PM
The guys who say 'Hey, no one's getting hurt. The women are willing to suck dick for 20$ a song (or even less during dance specials, I can assure you it happens all over), and the guys are willing to pay it, where's the harm in that?' Sounds nice and easy and benign, doesn't it?
Maybe I haven't been following closely enough but I don't recall hearing a cacophony of men around here saying that. I think it ought to be totally legal, yet I don't think it is a very good choice.
I just think that if women and men are going to choose to do it that it should be allowed to take place in the safest environment possible and that would be one which is legal.
The average woman couldn't handle working even in a strict, clean club for more than a few hours, if that.
There are a lot of jobs that people presume they could do but they couldn't even for a few hours if they had the chance. I did one of them for 25 years. A cop, particularly in large, very urban, environments deals with assholes who think they could do the job better than s/he themselves can all the time.
You adapt and survive if you want to persevere.
Golden_Rule
05-08-2009, 07:52 PM
Why? It is the oldest profession in the world. The customer does not force the dancer to do anything she does not want to do for money.
Some do, but I would imagie very few in number.
That doesn't mean circumstances aren't forcing decisions on some women to perform acts in the clubs they wouldn't choose if their set of choices were different.
THAT is the real problem.
I have no qualms about a woman choosing prostitution out of a series of choices she has made because she wants to take an easy route to short term serious money, but to make that choice because of a lack of options is a totally different story.
Golden_Rule
05-08-2009, 07:57 PM
Here's the real issue in these situations, many girls get themselves trapped into these situations. There was a club in Alaska that was notorious for doing this. They would pay for air fare to the club, the girls would arrive totally broke and stay at the club's dancer housing. Since the girls didn't have any money, they were stuck working as hookers in the club just to feed themselves. Management would throw them in VIP with customers that were promised "extras" by the bouncers, and the girls were instructed to give (this is how I was told to give laps at this club) "He likes his dances really, really dirty." Barf.
That is a flat out violation of the Mann Act and, with no stretch of legal definitions, human trafficking and should have been prosecuted as such.
Otoki
05-08-2009, 09:08 PM
Yep. They also threatened to sue for house fees for the unfinished contract period. ::) Some clubs have $100 per day no-show fees.
Here's the real issue in these situations, many girls get themselves trapped into these situations. There was a club in Alaska that was notorious for doing this. They would pay for air fare to the club, the girls would arrive totally broke and stay at the club's dancer housing. Since the girls didn't have any money, they were stuck working as hookers in the club just to feed themselves. Management would throw them in VIP with customers that were promised "extras" by the bouncers, and the girls were instructed to give (this is how I was told to give laps at this club) "He likes his dances really, really dirty." Barf.
So think about this, girls who are dead broke, thousands of miles from home, unable to call family for help for fear of ostrization are essentially forced to go waaaaayyyyy beyond what they had expected the job involved. I lasted 4 days at the Alaska club I mentioned. On the day I arrived, there was a girl bawling her eyes out at the condo warning the new arrivals to go home now, to get away before it's too late.
I wasn't broke, and I knew that the contract was just paper and really meant nothing. I did very few extras (I let some customers touch, and I engaged in friction dances). By the end of my 4th shift I was bawling my eyes out, too. There was a bouncer that lived in the dancer condo to make sure the girls didn't wander off. Luckily, he wasn't a prison warden and I was able to leave the next morning at about 8am, and get out of town with another girl that was in the house. I bought her plane ticket home too, as she was one of the dead broke ones I had mentioned.
It's actually a pretty interesting story, my Alaskan stripper adventure. It may have been tragic, though, if I had been in a financially desperate situation.
I'm really glad you posted this. The issue of prostitution and the worker's agency is a touchy one, because you don't want to disregard the workers who love their jobs, but you also don't want to ignore those who are performing these acts due to a lack of money, physical autonomy (abusive relationship, slave trade, kidnapping) and empowerment.
I'm really glad that your post manages to show how desperation and pimp managers/owners can lead to a situation that amounts to sexual slavery. It's reminiscent of the comfort women who were forced to serve Japanese soldiers, since most of them were tricked into being trapped in prostitution (thinking they were traveling to a legitimate, non-sexual job) and unable to leave due to their lack of finances.
I guess I get annoyed when customers who receive these services flippantly mention agency of the worker, when two seconds of reflection would determine whether or not the worker has a real choice. Prostitution is a legitimate job, but that doesn't mean everyone doing has the choice. Sexual slavery and human trafficking are unfortunately alive and well. I also feel that people with the "she wouldn't be doing it if she doesn't want to" attitude are obfuscating reality in order to justify their consumption of a possibly non-consensual product.
Paris, could you please PM the name of the club to me? I was planning a trip to Alaska and would like to avoid it at all costs.
Otoki
05-08-2009, 09:10 PM
You adapt and survive if you want to persevere.
I hope you didn't mean it this way, but this line implies that one should adapt to any job, even if it isn't appropriate for one's mental, emotional, or physical capabilities. What did you actually mean by this line?
mediocrity
05-08-2009, 09:14 PM
How rife is the abuse? Ask the customer who stole $400 out of my purse tonight in VIP while I was in the bathroom after he paid it to me.
Fuck face. As if I needed a worse week. Welcome back after two sick weeks MR indeed.
vmurphy252
05-08-2009, 09:39 PM
^ that SUCKS. You have not had a few good weeks. I hope it gets better.
Hopper
05-08-2009, 09:46 PM
...
I guess I get annoyed when customers who receive these services flippantly mention agency of the worker, when two seconds of reflection would determine whether or not the worker has a real choice. Prostitution is a legitimate job, but that doesn't mean everyone doing has the choice. Sexual slavery and human trafficking are unfortunately alive and well. I also feel that people with the "she wouldn't be doing it if she doesn't want to" attitude are obfuscating reality in order to justify their consumption of a possibly non-consensual product.
They probably aren't aware of the reality. I wasn't until I read Paris's post.
Hopper
05-08-2009, 09:49 PM
Djoser's post gave me the impression that this happens in all clubs. Is this true? I have never encountered it or even heard of it, although I am not a VIP customer.
CuriousB
05-09-2009, 01:13 AM
Why? It is the oldest profession in the world. The customer does not force the dancer to do anything she does not want to do for money.
I have absoluely no problem with prostitution. What consenting adults do with their time and money is up to them.
While I know most dancers are perfectly happy exercising the control they have over their lives and bodies to make a good living unfortunately there are women who are forced into sex work through circumstance who do the work willingly but who are not psychologically equipped for the industry. Often these are the women who find themselves in the compromising situations. It's the reason I avoid strippers who seem high or drunk - I'd rather not have to be reminded of this sort of thing and I'm certainly not interested in participating in it. DJ's post kind of brought my feeling on the matter to the fore, especially after something that happened during my last visit.
Apologies to the ladies here who are genuinely into their jobs and are comfortable and happy leveraging the power of their sexuality to earn a living (God (and whichever presidents adorn the big bills in your respective countries ) bless you.). This post is not aimed in your direction.
Finally, please keep your prostitution out of my clubs. I'm looking for good clean fun.
Djoser
05-09-2009, 03:22 AM
Djoser's post gave me the impression that this happens in all clubs. Is this true? I have never encountered it or even heard of it, although I am not a VIP customer.
What happens? Prostitution? Or abusive behavior towards women?
Prostitution, not in all clubs, no.* But it's happening in more and more clubs all the time, including some of the biggest upscale clubs. The limits are constantly being pushed. And women get in jams where they need money for rent the next day, whatever, they are surrounded by every other dancer giving BJs, they have a few drinks trying to relax and deal with it, the managers are screaming at them about the house fee, and so forth--they go beyond what they ordinarily would.
Of course prostitution should be legalized, I have nothing against it at all, just not in the fucking clubs. It's making a very difficult profession a lot tougher.
The cop analogy is good, and cops don't have it easy, but the cops are giving the orders. Dancers can't arrest guys for calling them a 'fucking whore' because they don't want to be spanked or their ass grabbed without even being tipped or anything.
Actually, if they even try to call the cops they will get fired. If a dancer tries using the legal system to resolve any sort of grievance, she'll be laughed out of court in most areas of the country. If she's lucky enough to get that far.
C'mon guys, try it. Go spank a cop tomorrow. Call him a bitch and a whore, see what happens.
;D
Look, I'm not saying the guys are all dicks and the women are a bunch of angels. I've dealt with some king-hell bitches in the last ten years, trust me. I've been lied to and ripped off for tips in various ways many, many times, if rarely twice by the same dancer.
But from what I've seen the women are having to put up with more shit than the guys, and most women can't handle it for long. And I don't blame them for being pissed at all. Sometimes I get pissed off myself when I see some of the shit going on, trust me. It's a pleasure to make the worst of the assholes leave. But, in some clubs I had to sit and watch them insult the hell out of women I thought of as sisters.
Just the way the guys talk to them can be enough, sometimes, especially when they have to listen to it all night, every night. The insulting assumptions made and brandished--sometimes as verbal weapons, more often various pathetic, contrived attempts at peacock behavior and dominance games. All of it, endlessly, enough to drive anyone sane batshit crazy, if it's more than a couple times a night. And it so often is.
*Though it should be said that it does go on in every club at some time or another, no matter how strict, despite all the cameras and bouncers watching. A girl got fingered right out on the floor in one of the strictest clubs I ever worked in. In some it's much easier to get away with though, of course.
Golden_Rule
05-09-2009, 08:18 PM
I hope you didn't mean it this way, but this line implies that one should adapt to any job, even if it isn't appropriate for one's mental, emotional, or physical capabilities. What did you actually mean by this line?
I see what you mean. Let me be more precise.
IF the job is not coerced but of ones own choosing than you have hopefully done your homework and know what you are getting into BEFORE having chosen, and in the course of your endeavor adapt to the challenges you meet and preserver.
Even if that means realizing you've made a wrong choice and moving on.
Golden_Rule
05-09-2009, 08:22 PM
How rife is the abuse? Ask the customer who stole $400 out of my purse tonight in VIP while I was in the bathroom after he paid it to me.
Fuck face. As if I needed a worse week. Welcome back after two sick weeks MR indeed.
That is ABSOLUTELY horrible.
Just as horrible as the customer loosing $400 the same way.
It is my fervent hope that neither dancers or customers would ever have to deal with bull crap like that. The problem is it happens all the time.
Let's face it, strip-clubs are not always - but frequently - bad places where both men and women get ripped off. That's truly a shame because I can't think of a what ought to be a more joyous environment than one where everyone is getting what they want and something as beautiful as sexuality and sensuality are involved.
My point was simply that a less tolerant attitude about "the bad stuff" on the part of EVERYONE involved, management, dancers, customers, would go a long way to solving that problem.
A BIG problem takes EVERYONE involved to right it.
CuriousB
05-09-2009, 11:52 PM
That is ABSOLUTELY horrible.
Just as horrible as the customer loosing $400 the same way.
It is my fervent hope that neither dancers or customers would ever have to deal with bull crap like that. The problem is it happens all the time.
Let's face it, strip-clubs are not always - but frequently - bad places where both men and women get ripped off. That's truly a shame because I can't think of a what ought to be a more joyous environment than one where everyone is getting what they want and something as beautiful as sexuality and sensuality are involved.
My point was simply that a less tolerant attitude about "the bad stuff" on the part of EVERYONE involved, management, dancers, customers, would go a long way to solving that problem.
A BIG problem takes EVERYONE involved to right it.
Show a little class. Mediocrity being robbed isn't a point of debate.
chris91
05-10-2009, 02:22 AM
That is ABSOLUTELY horrible.
Just as horrible as the customer loosing $400 the same way.
It is my fervent hope that neither dancers or customers would ever have to deal with bull crap like that. The problem is it happens all the time.
Let's face it, strip-clubs are not always - but frequently - bad places where both men and women get ripped off. That's truly a shame because I can't think of a what ought to be a more joyous environment than one where everyone is getting what they want and something as beautiful as sexuality and sensuality are involved.
My point was simply that a less tolerant attitude about "the bad stuff" on the part of EVERYONE involved, management, dancers, customers, would go a long way to solving that problem.
A BIG problem takes EVERYONE involved to right it.
Wtf, dude? This thread is about customers abusing dancers. You just keep coming in here saying "Yeah, well strippers are bad too!" It's off topic, and you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I don't like it when people, who have never worked in the industry, act like they know more than me about how it works. I've been dancing for 12 years. I know what the fuck is up. Your unsolicited advice for how to fix our problems is annoying, condescending, and flat out rude.
Imagine if I went into a cop forum where a guy was venting about being stabbed by some crack head, and started saying shit like, "Yeah well some cops are assholes too!" and "Well maybe you should just stop tolerating people stabbing you." Jesus christ.
Hopper
05-10-2009, 02:38 AM
Wtf, dude? This thread is about customers abusing dancers. You just keep coming in here saying "Yeah, well strippers are bad too!" It's off topic, and you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
I don't like it when people, who have never worked in the industry, act like they know more than me about how it works. I've been dancing for 12 years. I know what the fuck is up. Your unsolicited advice for how to fix our problems is annoying, condescending, and flat out rude.
Imagine if I went into a cop forum where a guy was venting about being stabbed by some crack head, and started saying shit like, "Yeah well some cops are assholes too!" and "Well maybe you should just stop tolerating people stabbing you." Jesus christ.
Put the 'phone down Russell. I think the predatory behaviour of the dancers and the club staff in general is relevant to some of the treatment the dancers recieve. I don't condone the abuse, but the cynical behavour of club staff fosters the wrong attitudes of patrons. We haven't worked in the clubs, but we are on the receiving end of the hustles.
The case of a cop being stabbed by a crackhead is probably not at all a result of previous police brutality, but other cases of hostility toward police may be a reaction to it. So too in SCs. I know to take every dancer and other staff individually (as we should with cops), so I don't resent all of them because of the actions of a few, much less justify abusing them in any way.
What's the matter - did GR hit a nerve?
Paris
05-10-2009, 07:04 AM
That is a flat out violation of the Mann Act and, with no stretch of legal definitions, human trafficking and should have been prosecuted as such.
Ya' think?:rotfl:
Dude! You just made me spew coffee all over my computer! LOL! If I had done such a thing, I'd be in witness protection right now.::) The club was run by organized crime, the Hell's Angels, to be exact.
You may be Captian Save-a-Ho, but I don't have the super hero gene.;)
ETA: Have you ever been to Alaska? It's a lawless frontier in many regards.
rlams2000
05-10-2009, 11:16 AM
Captain Save-a-Ho!!
You just made me spew coffee.
mediocrity
05-10-2009, 11:17 AM
Show a little class. Mediocrity being robbed isn't a point of debate.
I sincerely appreciate this.
chris91
05-10-2009, 04:51 PM
What's the matter - did GR hit a nerve?
Yes, he did actually. I'm sick of this fantasyland nonsense. I hear it all the time on and off this board, from people who think they know something because they read stripper blogs, or they have a second cousin who worked at a restaurant next door to a strip club. "If you don't like it, then you should strike/unionize/get a day job." It's stupid, because in reality, none of those options would actually do anything except cause more bullshit or put me below the poverty line.
Goldenrule, if you really want to help, then stop offering unsolicited vague useless advice on the internet. Stop bringing up the bad things that other dancers have done when one dancer has something bad happen to her. Call up your cop buddies and tell them to quit taking bribes, do their fucking jobs, and raid some clubs. When the clubs start having to pay hefty fines for not enforcing the rules, then we will see some things change. I would call the cops myself, but I am not willing to be a martyr for this cause, and I shouldn't have to.
Crow2
05-10-2009, 05:44 PM
Put the 'phone down Russell. I think the predatory behaviour of the dancers and the club staff in general is relevant to some of the treatment the dancers
recieve. I don't condone the abuse, but the cynical
behavour of club staff fosters the wrong attitudes of patrons. We haven't worked in the clubs, but we are on the receiving end of the hustles.
The case of a cop being stabbed by a crackhead is probably not at all a result of previous police brutality, but other cases of hostility toward police may be a reaction to it. So too in
SCs. I know to take every dancer and other staff individually (as we should with cops), so I don't resent all of them because of the actions of a few, much less justify abusing them in any way.
What's the matter - did GR hit a nerve?
I said I was not going to post in this section anymore ... but I lied. Predatory behavior? WTF? Yeah, I'd be a little predatory if I had to deal with ass grabbing, fuck me for a dollar, let me be your pimp assholes night after night. Thankfully I have a thicker skin than most, others do not. And don't give me that change your job, stick up for yourself bullshit. Club staff can make an independent contractors working life a living hell. Been there, done that. So.. Until you have immersed yourself in the behind the scenes day to day working life of a Dancer ( or whatever you would prefer to call it.) hush. Because you have NO idea what your talking about!
As for the crackhead stabbing a cop issue, that was an example. Not a point of debate. As.. "Like this"
Cynical behavior of the club staff? That's an understatement. Once again, WTF? Most clubs and their staff do not give two shits about dancers. Except when it comes time to pay out, or pay their fees. Get your facts straight.
Hopper
05-10-2009, 08:31 PM
I said I was not going to post in this section anymore ... but I lied. Predatory behavior? WTF? Yeah, I'd be a little predatory if I had to deal with ass grabbing, fuck me for a dollar, let me be your pimp assholes night after night. Thankfully I have a thicker skin than most, others do not. And don't give me that change your job, stick up for yourself bullshit. Club staff can make an independent contractors working life a living hell. Been there, done that. So.. Until you have immersed yourself in the behind the scenes day to day working life of a Dancer ( or whatever you would prefer to call it.) hush. Because you have NO idea what your talking about!
As for the crackhead stabbing a cop issue, that was an example. Not a point of debate. As.. "Like this"
Cynical behavior of the club staff? That's an understatement. Once again, WTF? Most clubs and their staff do not give two shits about dancers. Except when it comes time to pay out, or pay their fees. Get your facts straight.
First I'll make two things clear about the post you were responding to: (1) I was not at all justifying any of the abusive patron behaviour being described by others in this thread. (2) I was not saying that all or even most staff are "predatory" or "cynical".
When I said that staff treat patrons cynically, I did not say (or mean) that staff do not also treat dancers cynically. I was referring in particular to how behaviour of patrons might be related to staff behaviour toward them. It is obvious from previous comments in this thread and others that dancers are mistreated by staff. I knew of it before visitting this site.
My point was that cynical business behaviour and attitudes of staff toward patrons lowers respect for the club staff and justifies in the eyes of some patrons behaviour in kind. If staff act in a sleazy or predatory manner, expect patrons to, especially the pricks. I was not putting the blame on SCs or staff in general. Wrong individual behaviour sends wrong messages about the whole industry. Some of the treatment I recieved in past times made me cynical and wary about SCs and anyone who worked in them. But I did not apply those sentiments indiscriminately and universally to all dancers in SCs and never justified abusing the any of the dancers because of this behaviour.
You, ironically, appear to be justifying dancers treating all patrons in a predatory manner because of the behaviour of a few, which is no more "understandable" than patron reactions to dancers behaviour. Neither patrons or staff started it - some of both do it without provocation.
The difficulty of changing jobs in some situations has already been addressed by someone else in this thread. I haven't yet commented on this issue at all either before or since. The crackhead-cop issue was not an example (strippers are not cops), it was an analogy, and I was criticising the way in which it was being applied. GR didn't say a dancer who is abused deserves it because of the behaviour of other dancers. He was pointing out that the behaviour of some dancers wrongly reflects on them all in the eyes of some patrons.
I would not say that I have "NO" idea about what is going on, since some "behind the scenes" workers have been posting information about it in this thread and elsewhere in these forums. However, I would still defer to people who actually work there. The fact that "behind the scenes" people came to "Customer Conversation" to comment means that I'm entitled to respond. I didn't make any comments outside of my own experience.
Paris
05-10-2009, 09:17 PM
Hopper, you may wish to start your own thread entitled "How customers are abused by strip clubs".
The question was asked how often dancers are subject to abusive behavior from customers. I submit that customers are abusive to people in all fields of customer service, not just in strip clubs. I was harassed and abused by customers when I worked in restaurants and retail sales, so seeing bad behavior in strip clubs wasn't at all surprising.
There is just something about that person that is providing a service that brings out the worst behavior in others. Instead of feeling humbled for having received that service, we as a society feel superior to be able to purchase the service of another.
Crow2
05-10-2009, 09:33 PM
First I'll make two things clear about the post you were responding to: (1) I was not at all justifying any of the abusive patron behaviour being described by others in this thread. (2) I was not saying that all or even most staff are "predatory" or "cynical".
When I said that staff treat patrons cynically, I did not say (or mean) that staff do not also treat dancers cynically. I was referring in particular to how behaviour of patrons might be related to staff behaviour toward them. It is obvious from previous comments in this thread and others that dancers are mistreated by staff. I knew of it before visitting this site.
My point was that cynical business behaviour and attitudes of staff toward patrons lowers respect for the club staff and justifies in the eyes of some patrons behaviour in kind. If staff act in a sleazy or predatory manner, expect patrons to, especially the pricks. I was not putting the blame on SCs or staff in general. Wrong individual behaviour sends wrong messages about the whole industry. Some of the treatment I recieved in past times made me cynical and wary about SCs and anyone who worked in them. But I did not apply those sentiments indiscriminately and universally to all dancers in SCs and never justified abusing the any of the dancers because of this behaviour.
You, ironically, appear to be justifying dancers treating all patrons in a predatory manner because of the behaviour of a few, which is no more "understandable" than patron reactions to dancers behaviour. Neither patrons or staff started it - some of both do it without provocation.
The difficulty of changing jobs in some situations has already been addressed by someone else in this thread. I haven't yet commented on this issue at all either before or since. The crackhead-cop issue was not an example (strippers are not cops), it was an analogy, and I was criticising the way in which it was being applied.
I would not say that I have "NO" idea about what is going on, since some "behind the scenes" workers have been posting information about it in this thread and elsewhere in these forums. However, I would still defer to people who actually work there. The fact that "behind the scenes" people came to "Customer Conversation" to comment means that I'm entitled to respond. I didn't make any comments outside of my own experience.
I'm not justifying anything. I'm sick to death of people telling me and acting like they know everything there is to know about my job. You and other customers don't.
You only know what you have read here ( and that's not even the whole story ) and for you or anyone else to be critical about what you have read - without firsthand knowledge and or doing it yourself is beyond ridiculous.
Plus your snarky little struck a nerve comment was unneeded.
I don't come into McDonald's and tell you how to flip your burgers or how to better your work environment.
Be a customer
Why don't you try working on bettering that.
Raysworld
05-10-2009, 09:44 PM
I'm not justifying anything. I'm sick to death of people telling me and acting like they know everything there is to know about my job. You and other customers don't.
You only know what you have read here ( and that's not even the whole story ) and for you or anyone else to be critical about what you have read - without firsthand knowledge and or doing it yourself is beyond ridiculous.
Plus your snarky little struck a nerve comment was unneeded.
I don't come into McDonald's and tell you how to flip your burgers or how to better your work environment.
Be a customer
Why don't you try working on bettering that.
LMAO!!!
Crow, you are such a miserable old hag its hilarious. stop being such an agry person. its OK. EVERYTHING WILL BE OK!
Raysworld
05-10-2009, 09:45 PM
Paris, as per most her posts, is correct here.
Raysworld
05-10-2009, 09:47 PM
Look, guys saying that strippers are ripping you off...
you are paying for a service. you decide if the value is worth it or not. if it isn't worth it to you then don't pay.
but to say the mediocrity deserved getting robbed because she in some effect robbed the customer is absolutely ignorant.
Marginal benefits/utility...econ101
Crow2
05-10-2009, 09:57 PM
LMAO!!!
Crow, you are such a miserable old hag its hilarious. stop being such an agry person. its OK. EVERYTHING WILL BE OK!
I've been called a lot worse by a lot better.. Thanks Ray.
Hopper
05-10-2009, 10:00 PM
^Paris -
Wasn't intending to draw out the off topic. Just thought that, although he's been belabouring it, GR made a relevant point and Chris91 was being a little unfair. My next post was in response to Crow2's misunderstanding of my first one and a couple of other remarks she made in the same post.
However, in response to your own comments, I will point out that dancers are not just service providers, they are also businesswomen. A businessman provides a service also. The difference is that businessmen, unlike service employees, who merely front for a business, have a direct financial stake in their efforts, which can lead to abuse of customers.
I agree that we should not be focusing on abuse of customers. However, if people wish to discuss reasons and remedies for the abuse of dancers (also not directly to do with the initial question), then this along with other factors should be discussed in conjunction with it.
Hopper
05-10-2009, 10:06 PM
Look, guys saying that strippers are ripping you off...
you are paying for a service. you decide if the value is worth it or not. if it isn't worth it to you then don't pay.
but to say the mediocrity deserved getting robbed because she in some effect robbed the customer is absolutely ignorant.
Marginal benefits/utility...econ101
It's too late to decide the value of the service after one has been ripped off. We pay up front and there are no money-back guarantees. Nor would I go to court over it.
Nobody was trying to justify what happenned to Mediocrity.
chris91
05-10-2009, 11:14 PM
The crackhead-cop issue was not an example (strippers are not cops), it was an analogy, and I was criticising the way in which it was being applied. GR didn't say a dancer who is abused deserves it because of the behaviour of other dancers. He was pointing out that the behaviour of some dancers wrongly reflects on them all in the eyes of some patrons.
The analogy wasn't meant to prove that GR said that dancers deserve anything. It was meant to demonstrate how insensitive and rude his comments about mediocrity being robbed were. It was a "put yourself in her shoes" kind of analogy.
However, I would still defer to people who actually work there.
As you should. That was my point. Dudes can speculate all they want, but when an experienced dancer (or 10) tells you that you are wrong, then you need to recognize.
The fact that "behind the scenes" people came to "Customer Conversation" to comment means that I'm entitled to respond. I didn't make any comments outside of my own experience.
Of course, everyone is entitled to respond. If a dude is being disrespectful and insensitive though, then I am going to call his ass out.
Raysworld
05-10-2009, 11:21 PM
I've been called a lot worse by a lot better.. Thanks Ray.
Next time don't try to one up people by putting down people from other service industries. A McDonalds burger flipper is as much a human as you are, and he provides a service much like you do.
Your level of arrogance at your level of logic is shocking...mostly, I feel bad for you, because I know something has happened to you in the past that reflects such a low self-esteem here.
I sincerely hope you find happiness.
chris91
05-10-2009, 11:35 PM
You, ironically, appear to be justifying dancers treating all patrons in a predatory manner because of the behaviour of a few...
I don't think that was what she was saying. Dancers experience 100 times more abuse than customers, because we meet 100 customers for every 1 dancer that you meet. We are molested and insulted by customers on a regular basis over years and years. So yeah, some of us are cynical. You would be cynical too if you got kicked in the nuts 5 times a week by a different stripper each time, but that is not what is happening to you.
At least that's what I got from her post. She can speak for herself.
mediocrity
05-11-2009, 03:04 AM
Look, guys saying that strippers are ripping you off...
you are paying for a service. you decide if the value is worth it or not. if it isn't worth it to you then don't pay.
but to say the mediocrity deserved getting robbed because she in some effect robbed the customer is absolutely ignorant.
Marginal benefits/utility...econ101
That was exactly how I interpreted it.
'Oh you got your money stolen? Well you stole it to begin with.'
You know, all in all, I'm going to sound like a whiny bitch here, but Crow is right in a way. I just wish people were nicer to me. I wish guys day in and day out didn't try to squeeeeeze me til my skin hurts even after I say no. (<-- today's lovely VIP adventure) I wish they wouldn't yell at me after I say no and toss their asses out of VIP after they get thier three strikes. I wish people wouldnt try to slap my ass when I'm on stage. I wish more customers would treat me like a human being with feelings.
It doesn't make me happy to get bruises or drive home crying after I get robbed, smacked, or degraded. It is becoming more and more common. I am finding more and more "hobbyists" soliciting me for $100 OTC or $20 ITC action. I am also finding the reaction when I say no to be more and more irate... people asking me if I think I am "better" than them, am I not willing to "do my job" etc etc.
Truthfully, if I had a way out, I would. I will be the first to admit it: I hate my job. Maybe it's because I work in a tourist town. I don't know. But I do know I am pretty, smart and articulate, and I don't deserve this.
GR, I generally like you, but you blow a whole lotta wind up everyone's ass and find any opportunity to state you were a "big city cop" for so long. But from what I have read of your posts, you are not any better or worse than anyone else on here.
Ray, I generally think you are full of shit but thanks for this thoughtful post.:)
Crow2
05-11-2009, 04:21 AM
I don't think that was what she was saying. Dancers experience 100 times more abuse than customers, because we meet 100 customers for every 1 dancer that you meet. We are molested and insulted by customers on a regular basis over years and years. So yeah, some of us are cynical. You would be cynical too if you got kicked in the nuts 5 times a week by a different stripper each time, but that is not what is happening to you.
At least that's what I got from her post. She can speak for herself.
Finally.. and the person who understood me is a Dancer. Go figure.
Ray, I have no idea what is going on with you and frankly I don't really care. You don't know me nor do you know anything about me, except for what I let you see on this message board. Back the fuck up off me. Seriously.
I have a very direct way of explaining myself. As you can see.
When someone tells me or even implies that they know my job well and don't, I'm going to say something. Plus the burger flipping thing was , once again - an example.
Even when I've disagreed with you, I've shown you nothing but respect. If you took it any other way, frankly that's not my problem.
And per Ray's post(s) directed towards yours truly, if you - as a service industry individual ( don't want to step on any one's toes here. * eye roll * ) had to deal with that sort of insulting, myopic careless pique day after day .. well lets just say that you too would be a tad cynical
vmurphy252
05-11-2009, 06:44 AM
That was exactly how I interpreted it.
'Oh you got your money stolen? Well you stole it to begin with.'
You know, all in all, I'm going to sound like a whiny bitch here, but Crow is right in a way. I just wish people were nicer to me. I wish guys day in and day out didn't try to squeeeeeze me til my skin hurts even after I say no. (<-- today's lovely VIP adventure) I wish they wouldn't yell at me after I say no and toss their asses out of VIP after they get thier three strikes. I wish people wouldnt try to slap my ass when I'm on stage. I wish more customers would treat me like a human being with feelings.
It doesn't make me happy to get bruises or drive home crying after I get robbed, smacked, or degraded. It is becoming more and more common. I am finding more and more "hobbyists" soliciting me for $100 OTC or $20 ITC action. I am also finding the reaction when I say no to be more and more irate... people asking me if I think I am "better" than them, am I not willing to "do my job" etc etc.
Truthfully, if I had a way out, I would. I will be the first to admit it: I hate my job. Maybe it's because I work in a tourist town. I don't know. But I do know I am pretty, smart and articulate, and I don't deserve this.
GR, I generally like you, but you blow a whole lotta wind up everyone's ass and find any opportunity to state you were a "big city cop" for so long. But from what I have read of your posts, you are not any better or worse than anyone else on here.
Ray, I generally think you are full of shit but thanks for this thoughtful post.:)
First of all, this post depresses me completely. I know I am not the guy you're talking about (when every dancer remembers me for being the "gentleman" (and cute ;-)) I assume that's a positive statement), but I think I feel gender guilt for you (and, by extension, all dancers with similar experiences) being treated like this.
However, there is such a fine line in the dynamic between customer and dancer. I, personally, have a bit of the classic romantic in me (not literally; Byron is not having sex with me), so I have to purposefully put a block up in my interactions, or I will fall in love/infatuation with EVERY dancer I come across. There's a Heinlein quote to the effect of, "A man can't love a single woman without loving all women to some extent" and I agree wholeheartedly. So I sometimes come across as cold because I am maintaining a professional distance (gentlemanly and cold are not mutually exclusive attitudes), but I am in no way mistreating the dancer I am with. I would almost say just practice the golden rule, but, in this particular situation, that doesn't work; you don't want to be done unto...
I am in very babbling mood this morning; I apologize. I guess I'm not going to come up with something to solve the male/female dynamic in 10 minutes this morning when no one has for the last million (6000 for creationists) years.
Mediocrity, I wish there was something you could do to get out of this situation. Your posts for the last few weeks have been very sad (not all, but enough of them). I do wish you luck.