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SerenaSin
05-14-2009, 11:30 AM
Oh I know you don't care. I wouldn't expect you to. I was talking about the implication that we expect you to care. I think that most of us would happy and relieved to find a customer that just came out and said, "Listen, I don't want to hear about your bullshit. Just give me a dance."

I'm sure that 99% of people in general don't give a crap about what I do when I'm not at work, or how many pets I have. They ask me about that shit anyway, I assume in an attempt to make me think that they are genuinely nice guys that might be worth fucking some day, or maybe just to make conversation. I answer their questions in an attempt to make them feel connected to me in a way that makes my nudity less weird, or sometimes just to make conversation.

What a wonderful thing it would be if they could just say, "Shutup and dance for me." and I could just say, "I don't want to chit chat with you, so just buy a dance."



Oh man. For the first time since i've been working at my club, a customer came in right when it opened, and went right up to the first hot dancer he saw and said "I don't have much time, I have to get back to work soon, can I have a dance or 2 right now?"

When she got back into the dressing room we all collectively decided he was the perfect customer :)

chris91
05-14-2009, 01:14 PM
I think what he is tryimg to say is that house rules need to be rigidly enforced by large scary men with an iron first. So if yhe house rule is "No touching" and a bouncer sees a dancer sitting on a custies lap and he has his hand around her waist he must warn the dancer and custie even if they are both comfortable with the situation. Basically a zero tolerance approach to enforcing the rules since human nature seems to be broken.

No, that's what I am saying. GR has been arguing this point with me, and I'm trying to figure out exactly what his argument is. So far, all I'm getting is some vague "change the environment" and "can't we all just get along" stuff.

chris91
05-14-2009, 01:19 PM
Like CommanderAdama said, it is basically the price of doing business and the girls ultimately must look after themselves, even if officially it is not their job.

It has become the price of business, but it wasn't always, and it isn't supposed to be. The price of business is supposed to be house fees, dance fees, and mandatory "tips" to the staff.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 01:23 PM
What are you suggesting we fix? Fill in the blank:

Broken windows are to a crime ridden neighborhood what ______ is to a strip club.

Also, how exactly do you propose that we fix that thing? Be specific.

The broken windows in S-Cs are the attitudes based on projections and predisposed opinions customers and dancers alike bring into the S-C with them.

Fix those and each is less likely to see the other as a mark, and will stop treating each other as marks. IF dancers and customers stop seeing each other as marks they might just come to different conclusions about what strip-clubs are, and aren't.

The voting that will take place with feet and wallets thereafter will force management to make changes to facilitate the new attitudes in order to maintain dancers and customers interest in their clubs and their revenue streams.

Or one just says nothing can ever be done about anything. If one adopts that attitude though I would suggest they lose the right to grouse about it.

JayATee
05-14-2009, 01:25 PM
The broken windows in S-Cs are the attitudes based on projections and predisposed opinions customers and dancers alike bring into the S-C with them.

Fix those and each is less likely to see the other as a mark, and will stop treating each other as marks. IF dancers and customers stop seeing each other as marks they might just come to different conclusions about what strip-clubs are, and aren't.

The voting that will take place with feet and wallets thereafter will force management to make changes to facilitate the new attitudes in order to maintain dancers and customers interest in their clubs. That's how market forces work.

You are living in a fantasy world.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 01:38 PM
One thing I would like to know is what he means by strippers abusing customers? If it is strippers overcharging then it is a case of caveat emptor - you aren't dealing with girlscouts.

I don't say strippers abusing customers in the absence of also saying customers abuse strippers.

Basically S-Cs have gone, in 40 years, from pleasant places to watch sexy women dancing, al la the "Whisky-a-Go-Go", etc, to no touching bikini joints all the way up to what most of them are today. With each step not only did more clothes come off [which in and of itself is nothing wrong, the human body is a wonderful thing to behold] but also they became increasing places where the grift was the order of the day. Male and female grifters alike, each looking for victims.

That turned strip-clubs from places of entertainment into places of victimization and created the work place many dancers and customers alike complain about today [except for those that as Chris points out like them just as they are because it allows them to do precisely what they want to do].

Its not the sex/sexuality but what comes with it. It always is. Extreme example: It's not prostitution that is the actual problem. It is just that sex seems incapable of being commercialized without also bringing along the drug use, petty theft, physical abuse of women, robbery of the men, other forms of violence, that always seems to come along with it.

If you could strip away the bad stuff that has come along for the ride in the evolution of strip-clubs they could be really cool places for everyone to hang out and have a very good time while everyone gets what they want out of it WITHOUT victimizing the others involved in the process.

chris91
05-14-2009, 01:42 PM
The broken windows in S-Cs are the attitudes based on projections and predisposed opinions customers and dancers alike bring into the S-C with them.

Fix those and each is less likely to see the other as a mark, and will stop treating each other as marks.

So we should somehow magically make all those dancers and customers stop treating each other like marks, and then they will stop treating each other like marks?

This is not a solution. It's like I'm asking "How do I make ice cream?" and you're saying, "Well, if you would stop not making ice cream, then you would be making ice cream." It makes no sense.

chris91
05-14-2009, 01:50 PM
but also they became increasing places where the grift was the order of the day.

The grift is not the order of the day. Most dancers and customers are not trying to get over on anyone. The ones that are, always have been, and are able to do it now because management has stopped doing their jobs. The only thing that stopped them before was the fact that someone was enforcing the rules.

chris91
05-14-2009, 01:53 PM
I don't say strippers abusing customers in the absence of also saying customers abuse strippers.


But you do say that strippers abuse customers. It would help if you could clarify what you mean by that. Give us an example so we can get some idea of what your definition of abuse is. Are we talking about a dancer who steals a customers wallet, or a dancer who lies about her age?

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 01:53 PM
You are living in a fantasy world.

No, I've seen it work. I've been part of it.

Its just a matter of how bad folks want it.

I try to apply it at the parties we have and to a fairly good degree it has worked. We have an environment where entertainers and customers alike can feel free to relax and do what ever business or receiving of entertainment they had in mind and be sure they won't be hurt in any way.

Now we have a controlled environment because it is guest list only and bad customers and dancers alike can be tossed and never invited back. Thus, through attrition, we weed out the bad apples. I acknowledge it would be harder in a regular club, but like I said... open market forces where dancers vote with their feet and customers with the wallets, etc.

People who complain about strip-clubs being what they've become are going to have to get it into their heads that they are that way because some number of people voted with cash in hand and willingness to work that it was at least ok for them to be that way, if not precisely what they were looking for.

IF folks want change you have to work the same process again but looking for a new result.

And it won't happen, BOOM!, over night but in small step just like how it got to where it is in the first place.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 02:03 PM
But you do say that strippers abuse customers. It would help if you could clarify what you mean by that. Give us an example so we can get some idea of what your definition of abuse is. Are we talking about a dancer who steals a customers wallet, or a dancer who lies about her age?

Come on... how many ways do I have to say it?

GRIFTING. MARK. TAKE ADVANTAGE. Places where everyone sees everyone else as a little less than human, so its OK to do them harm as it doesn't really count as a "bad thing" as you aren't actually hurting someone who counts. She's a little drunk so its OK to try and stick a finger in her without her direct consent. He's not paying attention so its OK to not tell him his billfold fell out of his pocket and take it.

Its bizarre in that too many people; managers, customers and dancers alike, all seem to take on some kind of minor borderline personality disorder when they step into the club. All of a sudden its just them and everyone else in the room is a non-person.

As long as men and women enter into S-Cs with the frame of mind that they are there to take advantage of one another then strip-clubs will continue to evolve from places of entertainment into dens of thieves and people on the grift.

Places where no one is there to have a good time but to see precisely how much they can get over on everyone else present. The precise kind of environment that promotes someone ripping someone off or "defending" themselves by rapping a dancer in the eye or hitting a customer in the head with a stiletto heel.

If S-Cs continue to evolve in such ways its only going to get worse, not better. Which is a shame because considering what is present, pretty women and men with cash, they have potential to be really fun places for both.

I know people hate to hear this stuff because it means they have to take responsibility for the environment they live in. It means they can't simply blame it on someone else, like management, but have to accept that if they want change they are going to have to do something to facilitate it. Personal responsibility can be a real bitch.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 02:20 PM
The grift is not the order of the day. Most dancers and customers are not trying to get over on anyone. The ones that are, always have been, and are able to do it now because management has stopped doing their jobs. The only thing that stopped them before was the fact that someone was enforcing the rules.

I'm going to try this one more time then I give up.

Enforcement of rules is mandated by the public the rules serve.

If the voting public doesn't like how the cops are doing their jobs they pressure the politicians for change, AND THEY GET IT. It happens because the politicians want to maintain their revenue streams by remaining employed.

If dancers and customers don't like how management is doing their jobs they pressure it for change, AND THEY WILL GET IT. It happens because club owners want to maintain their revenue streams by having dancers and customers in them.

Management is going to do whatever it takes to make money. If clean clubs with well enforced rules make the best $$$ then clubs are going to be clean and rules are going to be enforced.

It is simply a matter of how far customers and dancers want to go to push the issue. If not then assume there is no interest for change and stop complaining about it because it is what it is for a reason and that is because the people in the strip-clubs, not management alone, want it that way.

mediocrity
05-14-2009, 02:23 PM
As long as men and women enter into S-Cs with the frame of mind that they are there to take advantage of one another in unfair ways then strip-clubs will continue to evolve from places of entertainment into dens of thieves and people on the grift.
You know, I really don't see a shit load of this grifting business. I myself, sure I've done a couple of shitty things. But years apart and never physically hurt someone, and always in retaliation of someting done to me. I feel like you are putting getting raped (which sticking a finger in someone technically is) and getting robbed in the same category, or the same level of awfulness. Trust me, I have been robbed (obviously) and I have been forcibly held down with the intent of rape, and I'd rather get robbed any day.




Places where no one is there to have a good time but to see precisely how much they can get over on everyone else present. The precise kind of enviorment that promotes someone ripping someone off or "defending" themselves by rapping a dancer in the eye or hitting a customer in the head with a stilleto heel.
In seven years, I have NEVER seen a dancer PURPOSEFULLY smack a guy with a stiletto. In seven years, I HAVE seen a customer smack a girl. I am not saying all dancers are angels, we aren't. We're human. But what I am trying to say is, most (and I will say most) men come into the club and think badly of us, that we are cheap, we are easy, we aren't educated etc. The stigma is still there, and because of that stigma, we catch a lot more shit that you guys.

I also would like to note, even though you didnt mention this, how many men PERCIEVE they were ripped off, when they weren't. I can't tell you HOW many times, I have given a dance to have the guy say "Oh, you're all about the money, huh?"

I wouldn't go up to a construction worker and be like OMG DUDE YOU ARE ALL ABOUT THE MONEY HUH?! YOU DON'T BUILD THIS SHIT FOR FUN?!

Fucking stupid.

chris91
05-14-2009, 03:02 PM
open market forces where dancers vote with their feet and customers with the wallets, etc.



Ok, dude. I'll just round up all the strippers and we'll go live in a cardboard box somewhere until management changes it's ways. Then we'll have plenty of time to enjoy the laughter of law enforcement after we tell them about all the laws that are being broken in strip clubs. Thanks for the advice.

Man, fantasy land seems like a wonderful place. I wish I could live there too.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 03:04 PM
You know, I really don't see a shit load of this grifting business. I myself, sure I've done a couple of shitty things. But years apart and never physically hurt someone, and always in retaliation of someting done to me. I feel like you are putting getting raped (which sticking a finger in someone technically is) and getting robbed in the same category, or the same level of awfulness. Trust me, I have been robbed (obviously) and I have been forcibly held down with the intent of rape, and I'd rather get robbed any day.

In that rape is an attack on both the body and the mind and robbery is only on the mind IF there has not also been an assault involved where physical injury was done you are correct.

I would ask you to understand, from someone who has dealt with many victims [as well as having been one myself... hey, I live in the real world and even a cop can get got over on from time to time and I've been both shot and stabbed on the job] that technically all crimes of such natures share the similarity of being an attack on the individuals person-hood.


In seven years, I have NEVER seen a dancer PURPOSEFULLY smack a guy with a stiletto. In seven years, I HAVE seen a customer smack a girl.

I'm just using examples from stripper-webs own pages.


We're human. But what I am trying to say is, most (and I will say most) men come into the club and think badly of us, that we are cheap, we are easy, we aren't educated etc. The stigma is still there, and because of that stigma, we catch a lot more shit that you guys.

I also would like to note, even though you didnt mention this, how many men PERCIEVE they were ripped off, when they weren't. I can't tell you HOW many times, I have given a dance to have the guy say "Oh, you're all about the money, huh?"

I wouldn't go up to a construction worker and be like OMG DUDE YOU ARE ALL ABOUT THE MONEY HUH?! YOU DON'T BUILD THIS SHIT FOR FUN?!

Fucking stupid.


I'll go back to the perception example I've used before. Man in Car A is doing 60MPH going east. Man in Car B is doing 60MPH going west. Man C is between them watching each approach. Man A says look at that car coming west at me at 120mph. Man B says the same but thinks the car is going east. Man C says look at both cars coming at me from east and west at 60MPH.

I think that many customers don't want to think negatively of themselves therefore believe they have no attitude toward dancers because they are customers. I think many dancers don't want to think negatively of themselves thus believe they have no attitude toward customers because they are dancers.

I think people being people it is nearly impossible to exist in an environment were negative things happen and NOT develop attitudes about those who are not precisely like us who we perceive may be responsible for those negative things.

You tell me whose perception might be closest to reality?

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 03:08 PM
Ok, dude. I'll just round up all the strippers and we'll go live in a cardboard box somewhere until management changes it's ways. Then we'll have plenty of time to enjoy the laughter of law enforcement after we tell them about all the laws that are being broken in strip clubs. Thanks for the advice.

Man, fantasy land seems like a wonderful place. I wish I could live there too.

Like I said, you win. I give up. I guess things just can't ever get better unless 'the other guy' does something about it.

JayATee
05-14-2009, 03:16 PM
Like I said, you win. I give up. I guess things just can't ever get better unless 'the other guy' does something about it.


You're just not getting it. The problem is that YOU ARE NOT A DANCER. It is absolutely impossible for you to see this from the dancer's perspective, or kno what goes on behind the scenes bc you are a CUSTOMER and you've never been behind the scenes. Im sure your ideas seem easy enough to you. But anyone looking at your posts will think you mean the dancers bring it on themselves and that since we're the ones at fault we're the only ones who can possibly change things. That just isn't true. There's a lot more to what goes on in SC's than just what the dancers are doing. And in my experience, most of the dancers I work with can't do jack shit about the problems bc they're not the ones creating them. Banding together to complain about it will only get us fired bc there are a hundred other girls willing to work under the conditions we are currently working under without bitching about it.

Not to mention, that the girls who are sexually assaulted can't even complain to police about it bc they'll tell us that we're strippers and what did we really expect? You think us dancers are going to be able to do something about this? You're out of your mind. And that fact has nothing to do with "waiting for the other guy to do something about it".

Earl_the_Pearl
05-14-2009, 03:38 PM
I think what he is tryimg to say is that house rules need to be rigidly enforced by large scary men with an iron first. So if yhe house rule is "No touching" and a bouncer sees a dancer sitting on a custies lap and he has his hand around her waist he must warn the dancer and custie even if they are both comfortable with the situation.

Good idea then the clubs will be empty and tipping will be next to nothing.

If the rules in New Jersey were enforced I for one would save a lot of money and drink much less. :-[

GO-GO DANCERS
WHAT ARE THE RESTRICTIONS ON GO-GO DANCING?
Go-Go dancing, just as other live entertainment, cannot involve persons under the age of 18 years (see “Age
Limits”) and cannot involve “lewd or immoral activity.” (N.J.A.C. 13:2-23.6.) Such lewd or immoral
activity generally involves the lack of attire or covering on genitals or “private parts,” as well as female
breasts. See-through garments and the use of “pasties” are not considered sufficient covering. Simulation
of sexual activity, even if clothed, is also prohibited. Dancers are not permitted to touch or be touched by
patrons, and this includes the placing of tips in the costume of the dancer. A dancer also cannot solicit
drinks from patrons.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 03:46 PM
No, that's what I am saying. GR has been arguing this point with me, and I'm trying to figure out exactly what his argument is. So far, all I'm getting is some vague "change the environment" and "can't we all just get along" stuff.

No, I've been very specific about what I am talking about. Even giving background on the ideas behind it and the person who first espoused it.

It involves people taking personal responsiblity and getting involved in changing things that matter to them, so most people do precisely what you are doing above... "I don't understand what you are saying to me." and "Its not mine to do anythng about. Some other guy has to fix it.".

The bottom line is it is going to remain as it is or become worse as long as some people want it that way and everyone else is unwilling to do anything about it.

Perry
05-14-2009, 03:51 PM
A dear friend of mine was recently attacked in the VIP room. A drunk customer grabbed her hair, and tried to force his dick in her mouth. She was too terrified to scream or fight back, thinking it would only make things worse. She tried waving at the cameras - but there was no one watching them. When she finally managed to get away, the customer went to her manager and complained about her - refusing to pay for the VIP because she wouldn't do what he wanted. He apologized to the customer.

Then he yelled at my friend for being dirty - which, while sobbing, she explained wasn't by choice. Then he snapped at her - telling her she should have bit and kicked and yelled. All of the other dancers, and the house mom thought she was crazy, or drunk or dirty. She just couldn't stop crying.

So yeah, it's easy for a big dude to say, "I would have kicked the fucker's ass!" or other customers to say, "Well, things should work like this this and this." and even other dancers to say they would have handled the situation differently or that they have precautions in place to protect themselves.

But when it comes down to it, none of that matters after the fact. It doesn't change what happened to her, even if we blame broken windows and bad managment or whatever. And it doesn't change that it's a risk we all take - and that we know damn well there might be nothing but a bouncer and g-string between us and an attack.

So forgive us if we don't have much sympathy for guys who get over charged a few bucks, or spend too much while they're drunk, or don't get to date a dancer they thought really liked them or get promised extras that aren't delivered. But it's nothing compared to what could happen to us. Sure, there's probably a handfull of stories where a customer had something so nasty happen to him that it ruined his life - but they're few and far between. Sadly, they're not so rare on our side of the stage.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 03:53 PM
You're just not getting it. The problem is that YOU ARE NOT A DANCER.

Than no one can understand anyone else unless they are precisely like them.

That is one hellava bad argument.

The fact is we are talking about how people react and treat other people and the ONLY perception required is that of being a PERSON.

And that is what many people here aren't getting and I am beginning to wonder why?

JayATee
05-14-2009, 03:57 PM
Than no one can understand anyone else unless they are precisely like them.

That is one hellava bad argument.

The fact is we are talking about how people react and treat other people and the ONLY perception required is that of being a PERSON.

And that is what many people here aren't getting and I am beginning to wonder why?

Oh good lord. No dear, we are talking about a specific industry that has specific problems that effect a specific population that regardless of how you think of yourself you are not a part of. You are a SPECTATOR. In this case, you can't tell us how to fix our problems as dancers without being a dancer.

This has nothing to do with how ppl in general treat other ppl. Which is what you're not getting, and I am wondering why. You can't generalize this problem as it is not a general problem.The president is not on tv talking about the plight of your neighborhood stripper. Ppl aren't rallying on street corners to help us get a safer working environment. I mean, really.

chris91
05-14-2009, 04:00 PM
Good idea then the clubs will be empty and tipping will be next to nothing.


They weren't empty when the clubs did this before. In fact, they were pretty packed all the time, and tipping was far more generous.

We had bouncers who would literally throw a dude out on his ass if he tried to stick his finger in my ass. They were gentlemens clubs. Bargain hunters and dudes who wanted to treat us like animals didn't come to the clubs, because they knew that couldn't get away with that crap. There were PLENTY of gentlemen who enjoyed the clubs, but they don't come anymore because gentlemen don't want to hang out with scumbags.

I had an interesting conversation with a very respectful and generous gentleman customer from Sydney the other night. He told me that he would never bring his clients to my club, because it was too seedy. He was appalled by the things that he saw going on in there, and when he described the clubs in his town to me, they sounded just like what clubs used to be here. My club is considered the cleanest and most upscale club in town. Allowing the bad customers to stay is actually driving away the good ones.

So, if enforcing the rules drives away people who are looking to finger fuck me, then good riddance. Saks wouldn't let you hang out in their store dressed like a homeless person, wiping your nose on the clothes, and holding out five dollars going "What can I get for this?" Strip clubs shouldn't either.

Earl_the_Pearl
05-14-2009, 04:05 PM
A dear friend of mine was recently attacked in the VIP room. A drunk customer grabbed her hair, and tried to force his dick in her mouth. She was too terrified to scream or fight back, thinking it would only make things worse. She tried waving at the cameras - but there was no one watching them.

Of course she was vindicated when the video tape was reviewed. ::)

Earl_the_Pearl
05-14-2009, 04:15 PM
If the rules in New Jersey were enforced I for one would save a lot of money and drink much less. :-[

They weren't empty when the clubs did this before. In fact, they were pretty packed all the time, and tipping was far more generous.


Then why would such profitable business tactics be permitted to laps and why don't all clubs adopt and enforce New Jersey ABC rules? ::)



GO-GO DANCERS
WHAT ARE THE RESTRICTIONS ON GO-GO DANCING?
Go-Go dancing, just as other live entertainment, cannot involve persons under the age of 18 years (see “Age
Limits”) and cannot involve “lewd or immoral activity.” (N.J.A.C. 13:2-23.6.) Such lewd or immoral
activity generally involves the lack of attire or covering on genitals or “private parts,” as well as female
breasts. See-through garments and the use of “pasties” are not considered sufficient covering. Simulation
of sexual activity, even if clothed, is also prohibited. Dancers are not permitted to touch or be touched by
patrons, and this includes the placing of tips in the costume of the dancer. A dancer also cannot solicit
drinks from patrons.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 04:19 PM
But when it comes down to it, none of that matters after the fact. It doesn't change what happened to her, even if we blame broken windows and bad managment or whatever. And it doesn't change that it's a risk we all take - and that we know damn well there might be nothing but a bouncer and g-string between us and an attack.

I'm trying to retain empathy in the face of all this bemoaning of the awful, and some of them are terrible, things that happen to dancers [while insisting that nothing bad happens to customers in strip-clubs]. It becomes difficult when it comes packaged with a complete and total unwillingness to be proactive in the desire to create change.

If the dancers, knowing how horrible it was that one of their own had to deal with something like that and how management reacted to it, walked out and left the club without a single entertainer; if dancers maintained any sort of solidarity in their desire to create a situation where management would have to make concessions and improve the environment in which they work ...

I'm not letting customers off the hook, the same applies to them. If they don't like what they get in S-Cs they should vote with their wallets and just stay home until clubs exist that they can appreciate.

But its always some other guys fault that bad things happen and never any one's responsibility to fix it.

I knew 25 years of that kind of exasperation as a cop, trying to do a good job and effect change. It NEVER works unless enough people get involved.

Social environments are the result of EVERYONE who resides in them. Not one specific segment. In order for the people who do the bad stuff in strip-clubs to get away with it others, not just management but EVERYBODY, has to turn a blind eye. Its the whole "Its soley Hitler's fault." thing. Well how did Hitler rise to power? How did he stay in power? How did he do all the things he and his underlings did? Was it because bad people didn't care enough to do something about it, or was it because otherwise good people didn't care enough to do something about it? Did it change by itself or because finally enough people took interest and sacrificed of themselves to cause change?

This is just going in circles. Those here believe what they believe and I the same. I am sure of the logic of what I am putting forth because its sources are founded in the minds of a lot of social scientists and philosophers, much smarter than I, who have come before me and simple concepts like "The Golden Rule". I hope those espousing differently are as comfortable with what sources are the foundation of their own philosophy.

I wish you all well...

Earl_the_Pearl
05-14-2009, 04:20 PM
Ppl aren't rallying on street corners to help us get a safer working environment. I mean, really.
Many people are rallying to help strippers by having the sex industry banned as they say it is exploiting women. Of course the women in the industry tell them to mind their own business. /:O

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 04:35 PM
Many people are rallying to help strippers by having the sex industry banned as they say it is exploiting women. Of course the women in the industry tell them to mind their own business. /:O

Exactly.

If others would like it resolved in another way then it would behove them to present counter proposals with enough cogent thought and people behind it to get others to take notice and believe it to be a workable solution.

Otherwise only two results are possible as things will not remain stagnant. That isn't the nature of environments. They are in constant motion, always evolving, rarely static for very long outside a laboratory.

If nothing happens to change the pattern either S-C's will get much worse or they will reach a point where the non-SC'ing public will find them a threat, enough of them will get involved [it always takes people getting involved], and cause them to cease to be.

chris91
05-14-2009, 05:26 PM
Then why would such profitable business tactics be permitted to laps and why don't all clubs adopt and enforce New Jersey ABC rules? ::)

In my experience, a lot of the clubs are run by power tripping idiots who don't know anything about the business. Some of the managers are under a lot pressure from maniac owners, who are never there and also have no idea how things actually work, to get their numbers up. So, any dude who spends more than twenty dollars gets his ass kissed regardless of how abusive he is to the dancers. The number don't go up though, because this attracts bargain hunters and scumbags, so the owners push more, and managers push more, and the girls get angrier that's when stripping becomes degrading and exploitative.

I don't know about NJ, but in New Orleans, there is a market for clean, law-abiding, expensive strip clubs. That market is not being served here right now, and it's stupid. Deja Vu came in here without knowing anything about the town, and destroyed everything. They are idiots.

JayATee
05-14-2009, 05:36 PM
Many people are rallying to help strippers by having the sex industry banned as they say it is exploiting women. Of course the women in the industry tell them to mind their own business. /:O

Puhleeeze. Rallying to put us out of business is not helping us.

Earl_the_Pearl
05-14-2009, 05:58 PM
Puhleeeze. Rallying to put us out of business is not helping us.

You understand that it is feminists, not men, that say you don't know what you want and are being exploited by men. They want to save you from yourselves.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 06:23 PM
In my experience, a lot of the clubs are run by power tripping idiots who don't know anything about the business. Some of the managers are under a lot pressure from maniac owners, who are never there and also have no idea how things actually work, to get their numbers up.

Ah, something we can agree upon.

I'd argue this is precisely why the only thing that can work is what I put forth but... :)

mediocrity
05-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Of course she was vindicated when the video tape was reviewed. ::)

What kind of insensitive shit is this? Let me tell you something: 8-9 times out of 10, the cameras are not taping. The other 1-2 times, the manager doesn't give a crap enough to roll it back.

Who the fuck rolls their eyes at a story about a girl almost getting raped? Seriously.

And yeah, GR, sometimes bad shit does happen to customers. But I doubt any of them are going to get held down by someone bigger who tries to shove their dick in their mouth.

JayATee
05-14-2009, 06:58 PM
You understand that it is feminists, not men, that say you don't know what you want and are being exploited by men. They want to save you from yourselves.

Im aware. Im also aware that it doesn't help us.

JayATee
05-14-2009, 07:19 PM
I'm trying to retain empathy in the face of all this bemoaning of the awful, and some of them are terrible, things that happen to dancers [while insisting that nothing bad happens to customers in strip-clubs]. It becomes difficult when it comes packaged with a complete and total unwillingness to be proactive in the desire to create change.

If the dancers, knowing how horrible it was that one of their own had to deal with something like that and how management reacted to it, walked out and left the club without a single entertainer; if dancers maintained any sort of solidarity in their desire to create a situation where management would have to make concessions and improve the environment in which they work ...

I'm not letting customers off the hook, the same applies to them. If they don't like what they get in S-Cs they should vote with their wallets and just stay home until clubs exist that they can appreciate.

But its always some other guys fault that bad things happen and never any one's responsibility to fix it.

I knew 25 years of that kind of exasperation as a cop, trying to do a good job and effect change. It NEVER works unless enough people get involved.

Social environments are the result of EVERYONE who resides in them. Not one specific segment. In order for the people who do the bad stuff in strip-clubs to get away with it others, not just management but EVERYBODY, has to turn a blind eye. Its the whole "Its soley Hitler's fault." thing. Well how did Hitler rise to power? How did he stay in power? How did he do all the things he and his underlings did? Was it because bad people didn't care enough to do something about it, or was it because otherwise good people didn't care enough to do something about it? Did it change by itself or because finally enough people took interest and sacrificed of themselves to cause change?

This is just going in circles. Those here believe what they believe and I the same. I am sure of the logic of what I am putting forth because its sources are founded in the minds of a lot of social scientists and philosophers, much smarter than I, who have come before me and simple concepts like "The Golden Rule". I hope those espousing differently are as comfortable with what sources are the foundation of their own philosophy.

I wish you all well...

What terrible things have befallen you as customer in a SC? Cause I know damn well what terrible things have happened to dancers. Enlighten me. Since you insist on the fact that this is a problem for everyone.

commanderadama
05-14-2009, 07:25 PM
Oh man. For the first time since i've been working at my club, a customer came in right when it opened, and went right up to the first hot dancer he saw and said "I don't have much time, I have to get back to work soon, can I have a dance or 2 right now?"

When she got back into the dressing room we all collectively decided he was the perfect customer :)

Awesome, I always thought I was the perfect customer. }:D

commanderadama
05-14-2009, 07:36 PM
What terrible things have befallen you as customer in a SC? Cause I know damn well what terrible things have happened to dancers. Enlighten me. Since you insist on the fact that this is a problem for everyone.

Yeah, I'm curious about this also. The worst thing that ever happened to me was being called an asshole and stuck up, by the same girl last month. It was bad, but I'm gonna live. :D

Come to think of it all the bad shit that happened to me was inflicted by girlfriends, friends and mostly my parents. BTW, I mentioned this in other threads, I went to Therapy last year. I'm good now ;)

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 09:54 PM
And yeah, GR, sometimes bad shit does happen to customers. But I doubt any of them are going to get held down by someone bigger who tries to shove their dick in their mouth.

I wish some people in here could get past the "its all about what happens to me" [not taking anything away from what actually did happen to you in the process] and realize that what I was speaking to is a larger concept and a bigger picture.

One that, if it were addressed, might make strip-clubs better places to be for everyone concerned.

I know its not going to happen though.

Golden_Rule
05-14-2009, 11:04 PM
What terrible things have befallen you as customer in a SC? Cause I know damn well what terrible things have happened to dancers. Enlighten me. Since you insist on the fact that this is a problem for everyone.

You asked so that is why I am answering. Like I said, I've said my piece.

Luckily not much to myself. That can be contributed to the fact that most people figure out very quickly I'm someone who messes with few people while at the same time being no one to mess with [most bad people know cops on sight, just like cops recognize bad people], my knowledge of every grift that ever came down the pike and how to spot them in their earliest stages, and most importantly to not having that ever so important component that gets most people sucked into a flim-flam: greed. I don't have the "something for nothing" mentality that makes a mark a mark. That makes me a bad target for such things.

As bouncer I have seen any number of customer victims that because they were looking for that something for nothing, or without the sense to stay sober or be intoxicated by all the blood draining from their head to feed their dick [dick thinking I call it], or even because they pissed some dancer off and the dancer thought it was quid pro quo, get either something poured on them, clothes torn, money stolen, fingers in eyes or balls "accidentally" squashed some during dances ["opps, my bad"], etc.

I even know of a couple of dancers who use to 'slip' and pee a little on clients who pissed [pardon the pun] them off [the stupid customers just thought these dancers just got so excited by their manly presence that they got extra "wet" ::) ] and one dancer with genital herpes that bragged of sharing her little gift by rubbing her shedding genitals on guys in shorts upper thighs or their cocks if they got stupid and whipped them out. That's only part of what I have seen and heard of from dancers themselves. I have, of course, also seen and heard of from dancers many-many bad things happening to them by customers as well. I have no lack of empathy for their pain. I just don't believe you solve those problems by causing some pain of your own.

These things I have seen the results of first hand, heard from dancers' own mouths when we did the dinner or breakfast thing after work before we went to our separate homes, etc.

Now, do I fault these dancers? Yes. Do I think of them as bad people? No. Misguided, most certainly. Most of them are very young and haven't lived long enough to figure out that you don't fix bad things by doing more bad things, they just get mad and want their "get evens". However one bad thing done to settle life's unfairness does not settle any scores but simply pulls the world down just one more peg.

I know now and have known, literally, hundreds of dancers well enough that they confide in me their stories, and some of the things I have heard should be force fed to every potential customer before they walk through a strip-club door about what some dancers truly think of them. Just like classes they give to johns about what some prostitutes think of their clients to give them something to ponder about before they decide whether to seek out their services again.

I am a very sex-positive and sex worker positive kind of guy and I think all of this should be very legal, but I also believe in TRULY INFORMED participation. Most guys going to strip-clubs are totally clueless about what's up from down in these places. If they knew how SOME dancer felt about them, and how what they do in the clubs contributes to that, they might not bother going... but if they did go they might be better customers for the knowledge. And, as always, that works both ways.

Hopper
05-15-2009, 12:26 AM
hahaha really?? I WISH I never had to waste my time making the same bullshit chit-chat spiel with every damn customer that I want to dance for. But practically EVERY customer I approach wants to make me sit with them beforehand for as long as humanly possible and hear my life story (and give me theirs!), as if that has anything to do with how well I shake my ass in their face or grind on their lap. They'll promise me they'll buy a dance in "10 minutes" or "after a few more beers" or "after my stage set" (which might be 45 minutes from then!) and bug me to sit with them til then.

Your comment is just very strange to me, is all...

Not me. I like introductions but in five minutes you can move on and free your seat for other girls to do the same. When I want you you'll be the first or second to know. I do prefer to see a girl on stage before I decide on an LD, but sets take so long that I can't stay for them all.

Hopper
05-15-2009, 12:36 AM
It has become the price of business, but it wasn't always, and it isn't supposed to be. The price of business is supposed to be house fees, dance fees, and mandatory "tips" to the staff.

I agree that you should not have to pay the extra price you are paying. I think CA's point was that in any business, there are problems with customers, staff, contractors, other businessmen, etc. The nature of your business means that your problems are sexual in nature, aside from you being ripped off or hit. Customers, contractors etc will always try to take more than they reasonable may bargain for, and in your line of work, that means off-limits touching or sexual favours. As well as verbal abuse (also a prioblem in other businesses) which in your case is bound to be sexual in nature too.

Hopper
05-15-2009, 01:36 AM
What terrible things have befallen you as customer in a SC? Cause I know damn well what terrible things have happened to dancers. Enlighten me. Since you insist on the fact that this is a problem for everyone.

As GR points out, some dancers do some bad things to customers. I don't know how many or how often that is. Abuse of customers by dancers probably isn't as bad as abuse of dancers by customers. But this issue is about customer perception of and their resulting attitude to the club and the actions that follow. That's nothing to do with how bad one side is compared to the other.

I can't speak for GR, but my take on this was that guys walk into a club and see dancers hustling predatorially (for whatever reason they do it) and react with the idea that these girls are sluts and/or bitches so they can mistreat and take advantage of them withour feeling bad. All this would be is groping, verbals, and off-limits touching. The rape and assault would be committed by jerks who would do it wherever they could get away with it. They are the date rapers.

I'm not justifying even the less-brutal stuff. It's just how some guys tend to react to girls who slight them, especially if they are dressed and behaving like "tramps" (excuse my bluntness - I just mean that it's your job to more-or-less dress and behave that way). Even the date-rapers feel freer to perpetrate their brutality in such an environment.

A decent man's reaction is to let the girl deal with her problems by herself and leave her be. A real man knows not to go down to the level of women who treat him poorly. A half-intelligent man knows that the girls aren't acting like "tramps" because they are tramps, but because it is how men fantasise about women behaving.

A smart man suspects that the girl is reacting to previous sleazy customers and in any case to the fact that dressing in lingerie and offering (the outside of ) her body to a roomful of men each night is not the most psychologically tenable position for a woman, and also that deep down no woman can respect a man who pays to touch naked girls, even if that girl is herself and she asked him to do it. This man just pays his money, gets the LD and accepts whatever comes with it, watches out for rip-offs, takes none of the dancer's persona at face value and avoids as much bitchiness as he can.

But the fact is that not all men are that decent or smart.

An unreal, unnatural, sexual, male-female interaction is set up in SCs and combined with business. It doesn't cause problems, but it is a problem waiting to happen.

chris91
05-15-2009, 01:53 AM
You understand that it is feminists, not men, that say you don't know what you want and are being exploited by men. They want to save you from yourselves.

those aren't feminists. They are stupid stupid women.

Djoser
05-15-2009, 02:12 AM
Well, I'm glad to see that the question posed by the OP, 'Just how rife is the abuse of customers by strippers?', has been answered.

Dirty Ernie
05-15-2009, 08:21 AM
You asked so that is why I am answering. Like I said, I've said my piece.


There is a distinction that needs to be drawn here: I've never been abused or assaulted by a dancer in a club, and the examples you give are not abuse, but more likely self-defense against an assault. In cop parlance, sometimes the response is reasonable force, sometimes it may be excessive force, but it's always a reactive response, whereas customers who abuse and assault dancers are first strike perps.

Obviously these methods of defense are required because in some clubs dancers have learned mgmt cares more for customer $$ than replaceable stripper house fees.

I

SerenaSin
05-15-2009, 08:44 AM
In that rape is an attack on both the body and the mind and robbery is only on the mind IF there has not also been an assault involved where physical injury was done you are correct.

I would ask you to understand, from someone who has dealt with many victims [as well as having been one myself... hey, I live in the real world and even a cop can get got over on from time to time and I've been both shot and stabbed on the job] that technically all crimes of such natures share the similarity of being an attack on the individuals person-hood.

For someone who seems to feel so passionately about people treating one another like human beings this is an extremely inhumane, insensitive comment that really seems to be trying to minimalize the severity of sexual assault. I'm surprised because I'm sure as a former cop you've seen and been profoundly affected by this sort of thing first-hand.

Is it ok to punch used car salesman in the throat? Or rape waiters in fancy restaurants, because the food is way overpriced and maybe not that good and the service sucked? Do the establishments play a part in this interaction? Is it the victims' fault for being pushy or snooty? Every time you spread the blame onto everything and everyone else in the situation you ARE implying that the dancers are to blame, at least somewhat. It's not about "passing the buck", but placing it on those who are actually in the wrong.

It just boggles me how the "personal responsibility" is not being placed on the actual people committing the abuse, but instead on how "unpleasant" the SC "environment" has become (and to an extent, the fault of the dancers for making the guys feel "ripped off" and trying to "grift" them, which is no worse than what a salesperson or telemarketer does)



You understand that it is feminists, not men, that say you don't know what you want and are being exploited by men. They want to save you from yourselves.

"Feminist" and "men" are not mutually exclusive. Most men I know identify themselves as feminists in one way or another. Also, definitely not all feminists are anti-sex-work.



Well, I'm glad to see that the question posed by the OP, 'Just how rife is the abuse of customers by strippers?', has been answered.

lol. thank you.

Crow2
05-15-2009, 09:02 AM
Wow. Since all of you guys have been "abused" I guess you should stop going to strip clubs. Darn!

JayATee
05-15-2009, 09:15 AM
You asked so that is why I am answering. Like I said, I've said my piece.

Luckily not much to myself. That can be contributed to the fact that most people figure out very quickly I'm someone who messes with few people while at the same time being no one to mess with [most bad people know cops on sight, just like cops recognize bad people], my knowledge of every grift that ever came down the pike and how to spot them in their earliest stages, and most importantly to not having that ever so important component that gets most people sucked into a flim-flam: greed. I don't have the "something for nothing" mentality that makes a mark a mark. That makes me a bad target for such things.

As bouncer I have seen any number of customer victims that because they were looking for that something for nothing, or without the sense to stay sober or be intoxicated by all the blood draining from their head to feed their dick [dick thinking I call it], or even because they pissed some dancer off and the dancer thought it was quid pro quo, get either something poured on them, clothes torn, money stolen, fingers in eyes or balls "accidentally" squashed some during dances ["opps, my bad"], etc.

I even know of a couple of dancers who use to 'slip' and pee a little on clients who pissed [pardon the pun] them off [the stupid customers just thought these dancers just got so excited by their manly presence that they got extra "wet" ::) ] and one dancer with genital herpes that bragged of sharing her little gift by rubbing her shedding genitals on guys in shorts upper thighs or their cocks if they got stupid and whipped them out. That's only part of what I have seen and heard of from dancers themselves. I have, of course, also seen and heard of from dancers many-many bad things happening to them by customers as well. I have no lack of empathy for their pain. I just don't believe you solve those problems by causing some pain of your own.

These things I have seen the results of first hand, heard from dancers' own mouths when we did the dinner or breakfast thing after work before we went to our separate homes, etc.

Now, do I fault these dancers? Yes. Do I think of them as bad people? No. Misguided, most certainly. Most of them are very young and haven't lived long enough to figure out that you don't fix bad things by doing more bad things, they just get mad and want their "get evens". However one bad thing done to settle life's unfairness does not settle any scores but simply pulls the world down just one more peg.

I know now and have known, literally, hundreds of dancers well enough that they confide in me their stories, and some of the things I have heard should be force fed to every potential customer before they walk through a strip-club door about what some dancers truly think of them. Just like classes they give to johns about what some prostitutes think of their clients to give them something to ponder about before they decide whether to seek out their services again.

I am a very sex-positive and sex worker positive kind of guy and I think all of this should be very legal, but I also believe in TRULY INFORMED participation. Most guys going to strip-clubs are totally clueless about what's up from down in these places. If they knew how SOME dancer felt about them, and how what they do in the clubs contributes to that, they might not bother going... but if they did go they might be better customers for the knowledge. And, as always, that works both ways.

What you don't seem to grasp is that this stuff doesn't come close to what is done to dancers on a regular basis. And I'm sorry, you whip your dick out in the middle of LD you deserve what you get. This is the ultimate problem. Guys seem to think that bc we're strippers we're also hookers and they treat us as such. Your answer to fix this problem is to tell us that we, as dancers, need to complain to management and stand together in order to change things? IT DOES NOT FIX THE PROBLEM. Who is going to teach the guys that come into the SC that they need to respect us and stop treating us like whores? That they need to stop pulling their dicks out and trying to forcibly stick it in us in one way or another. Who is going to tell them that it's not ok to take money out of garters, or to degrade and insult us on stage, or proposition us to meet us at their hotel after work? Who is going to explain to them that we are women, and we are ladies, and that just bc we take our clothes off for money doesn't mean we have low self esteem, or we need to be validated in any kind of way?

Im all for love thy neighbor as you love thineself but in this case it doesn't fit. There is too much that goes on. And I'm sorry, I don't believe that the hundreds of dancers you've known have all peed on customers, or any of the other examples you gave. There are always going to be bad eggs. But you know what? I have known hundreds of customers at this point who have behaved in the above mentioned ways, and they think it's funny, and they think it makes them "manly" and they laugh about it to their friends. So honestly, tell me truly, who is abused here. The poor poor custies that keep coming back? Or the dancers that have to put up with this shit with no one to complain to bc we're just strippers?

A_Guy
05-15-2009, 09:32 AM
I was actually interested in the responses based on the OP... but seriously, what the fuck happened to this thread?!?

If you're not a dancer, STFU and let them answer the OP's question. If you want to argue how abuse is a two-way-street, customers have it worse, blahblahblah... start your own GD thread!

Come on... this is basic internet forum etiquette 101 (and basic manners for that matter)








I shall now reengage lurk mode 8)

vmurphy252
05-15-2009, 09:59 AM
Try not to be very vocal, but seriously, the customers in this situation have such an overwhelming advantage, both from a business and physical perspective. They are the "always right" customer, and they typically have greater strength than the dancer. While I agree in a perfect world everyone would treat everyone else with respect, and it would be a value for value proposition, we just don't live in that world.