Log in

View Full Version : Difficult Question????



Pages : 1 2 [3] 4

holly07
06-10-2009, 02:10 PM
3-4 k a week? She is definitely taking advantage of your generosity. Your paying her for her time, which should be spent strictly with you. She is double dipping: She has already gotten your money, but is trying to work the rest of the crowd on your time. I have a similar customer that does the same as you, but I wouldn't dream of leaving while we're in a deal, that's his time and it's rude. I would tell her you want your time with her inside the club strictly to yourself, or if she doesn't mind when she goes off to get other dances then tell her to bring one of her friends by to entertain you. That should get her attention OR tell her since she is SO busy inside the club you'll just hang out with her sometime OTC. trust me a week or two of not seeing you, and she will start to miss the money.

MarvelGirl
06-10-2009, 02:13 PM
So, according to many of the men on this thread, I should start blatantly insulting each and every one of my customers by grilling them about their finances and constantly asking if they can really afford to be in the club in the first place.

Gee, no thanks. If I did that to someone, I'd expect them to react in the same way I would if a salesperson treated me that way. By walking out and spending my money somewhere else.

vmurphy252
06-10-2009, 02:33 PM
^Not one of the many. I guess my point on the not taking advantage thing is, if the information that he was spending money he REALLY shouldn't came out in conversation, or there was something blatantly obvious indicating the same, do you feel any kind of responsibility to NOT take the money? And I don't really have a moral judgment either way, because normally I'm very Darwinian in my thinking about such things, and say if the guy can't control himself, too bad. But that is a wider view; on individual cases I would like to think that there is a sense of compassion not to destroy someone (help someone destroy themselves) completely.

bem401
06-10-2009, 02:39 PM
So, according to many of the men on this thread, I should start blatantly insulting each and every one of my customers by grilling them about their finances and constantly asking if they can really afford to be in the club in the first place.

Gee, no thanks. If I did that to someone, I'd expect them to react in the same way I would if a salesperson treated me that way. By walking out and spending my money somewhere else.

Actually no one said anything of the sort. The topic was the ethics of taking large sums of money from a man who may or may not be in a position to afford it and rationalizing it by assuming he's loaded and not interested in anything more than exactly what he is getting at the present moment for the experience you are giving him. Many of the men here have a hard time envisioning a scenario where we we would turn over hundreds to thousands of dollars per week for months on end to one girl strictly for her companionship in a SC no matter how easily we could afford it unless we were looking for it to lead to something more. If the girl has made full disclosure about it beginning and ending in the club, that's fine. Intentionally misleading the guy (IMO) would not be fine. Allowing him to mislead himself becomes a bit of a gray area. I've had a couple of dancer friends who've found themselves with delusional customers. One chose to milk him for all she could. The other tried everything she could to gracefully get out of the situation and she probably could have taken him for a real ride. Now I ask you, whose behavior was more admirable?

Golden_Rule
06-10-2009, 04:34 PM
I'm sorry, but I nearly giggled when I read this. Who ever told you this line of work was about ethics had NO idea what they're talking about.

Anytime people deal with other people ethics, or the lack thereof, is involved.

Mankind has two contracts. One is ALWAYS in play. Man's contract with his fellow man. Ethics. Philosophy. The rule of law. If you live with other people, and who of us doesn't, you can't escape it. Only make of it what you will but your actions will be judged by others. No one gets around that.

Depending on your beliefs a second contract: Man's contract with his maker, may also be in play. Morals. Theology. Doctrine. If you believe in a God that sees and knows everything than this entity too knows all your actions, and depending on your belief system, may be judging you for same.

Sorry, but when I read something like what you said above the lack of experience in it rings very loudly, and tellingly.

Golden_Rule
06-10-2009, 04:44 PM
So, according to many of the men on this thread, I should start blatantly insulting each and every one of my customers by grilling them about their finances and constantly asking if they can really afford to be in the club in the first place.


According to this man all I would ask of you is to use common sense to take into account averages and, like a bartender who - again based on their knowledge of what is average - realizes someone should be cut off and do precisely that where warranted.

When one is selling anything that allows the user to become intoxicated and get in over their head civil case law in this country suggests a situation of contributory negligence on the part of the seller if they didn't realize what they were selling had passed a certain point and was now causing harm.

I don't differentiate between alcohol and other intoxicants in this manner.

While the imbiber certainly has a responsibility the one who profits from the selling shares some as well.

For example, if a man gave away much of his assets to a dancer and it broke him so that his family lost their home, etc, I would think it perfectly fair that a wife, as a third party effected; if she could prove her case, suing the dancer in question to get some or all of those assets back. Maybe even have punitive damages accessed for the trouble of having to deal with having herself and maybe her children placed in a homeless situation.

Totally within the realm of judicial common sense based on the case law as I know it and I am surprised it doesn't happen more often.

Actions have responsibilities and it takes two people to form the contract between dancer and customer so two people share in the responsibility if something bad happens to either as its outcome. [it works both ways]

vmurphy252
06-10-2009, 05:16 PM
Mankind has two contracts. One is ALWAYS in play. Man's contract with his fellow man. Ethics. Philosophy. The rule of law. If you live with other people, and who of us doesn't, you can't escape it.


So there's a universal source of ethics? The rule of law changes from country to country, state to state, county to county, etc... And there is definitely not a definitive set of philosophical rules (someone spot the logical fallacy in that statement...).

Golden_Rule
06-10-2009, 05:38 PM
So there's a universal source of ethics? The rule of law changes from country to country, state to state, county to county, etc... And there is definitely not a definitive set of philosophical rules (someone spot the logical fallacy in that statement...).


There is a universal source of ethics. Even though the rule of law in each society adds on to it to suit its own standards there is one basic that is constant. ALL societies acknowledge that constant.

Golden Rule: It is wrong to do things to other people you wouldn't want them to do to you.

That is the lingua franca of man's contract with his fellow man.

So no matter where one is all one has to do to establish the right or wrong of something is ask one's self if what they are about to do is something they wouldn't want done to them by somebody else.

It truly is just that simple.

vmurphy252
06-10-2009, 05:44 PM
While I agree with you that it is a good rule and something positive to follow, I don't see it as universal. There is nothing that constrains us to following that rule.

Sorry if this is a threadjack. And I am not trying to be a dick (I may be succeeding, but I am not trying); truly just discussing.

Golden_Rule
06-10-2009, 06:07 PM
While I agree with you that it is a good rule and something positive to follow, I don't see it as universal.

I would ask you to ask yourself what type of ethos does not acknowledge, in some form, what I suggest is the most basic tenet of man's contract with his fellow man?

I can't think of any.

The ancient philosophers: Socrates, Pythogoras, Aristotle, Plato, Epicurus? They all use the Golden Rule as a jumping off point.

Modern Philosophers: Hobbes, Spinoza, Kant, Engles, Marx, Nietzsche. Even Machiavelli. They all acknowledge it.

Its the very most basic standard, the jumping off point, in English Common Law.


There is nothing that constrains us to following that rule.

The choice not to choose is still a choice.

The choice to breach a contract we all enter into if we live amongst other people is one that has to be acknowledged brings consequences with it.


Sorry if this is a threadjack. And I am not trying to be a dick (I may be succeeding, but I am not trying); truly just discussing.

Thread jack... maybe? If so I am guilty of it as well. Being a dick? Hardly. I can't discern in your comments anything other than legit intellectual desire to hear and be heard on a subject you find interesting.

Naida
06-10-2009, 08:32 PM
Anytime people deal with other people ethics, or the lack thereof, is involved.

Mankind has two contracts. One is ALWAYS in play. Man's contract with his fellow man. Ethics. Philosophy. The rule of law. If you live with other people, and who of us doesn't, you can't escape it. Only make of it what you will but your actions will be judged by others. No one gets around that.

Depending on your beliefs a second contract: Man's contract with his maker, may also be in play. Morals. Theology. Doctrine. If you believe in a God that sees and knows everything than this entity too knows all your actions, and depending on your belief system, may be judging you for same.

Sorry, but when I read something like what you said above the lack of experience in it rings very loudly, and tellingly.

Apparently, you did not read too far into that post, just far enough to make yourself feel good while tearing at a single sentence. If you had read further, you would have seen that I am well aware (despite my inexperience) that, while the line of work is not something you associate with ethics, some dancers and customers DO have them.

You would have also read in my second post that, on one hand, I did agree with you to a small but reasonable extent.

Please read beyond a single sentence before making an ass of yourself.

Perry
06-10-2009, 09:06 PM
Let the man spend his damn money on what he wants. It's no one's call but his.

Dirty Ernie
06-10-2009, 11:25 PM
^Seriously. The OP says nothing about having an issue with the amount of money he's spending.

As usual GR's armchair socio-psychobabble makes me chuckle.
First, you need to research the actual meaning of the golden rule as applied in law.

Second, there is no universal source for ethics. It's internal and pliable as societies evolve, and all too easily ignored when convenient.

Speaking of convenient ignorance:
"...Anyone who profits directly from a matter ought to admit that their opinion might be slightly jaundiced and recuse themselves during the discussion of it."

You suggest a dancer shouldn't comment on this topic as the potential for her to profit from it makes her opinion untrustworthy.

Then you pass this little judgemental nugget on the OP:

"Trading friendship or company for other than friendship or company in return is the epitome pf PL'dom, and the bastion of the lonely and those with low self-esteem issues."

And finish with this one:
"...sex as a commodity is something of value and when traded for without strings can, if all persons are in full consent and agreement, that value can be monetary..."

Now, since you, yourself profit from the trade of sex for money, whether physically, in your pursuit of extras, or financially, from your work at "private parties", shouldn't you recuse yourself and stop posting on this topic? ;)

Interesting how vehemently you condemn the trade of company for money, yet staunchly defend the trade of sex for money, even assigning it some sort of implied noble value. They are practically twins, borne of the same egg.

victor2
06-11-2009, 01:32 AM
I am the original poster. First of all the money is not the main issue and I have made the choice to assist this friend financially, she deserves it. She is a wonderful person. However, going forward, if this situation continues, I am going to suggest that we go back to a per song based compensation system so I will not feel slighted or taken advantage of ( I am sure it is unintentional on her part). I still have to respect her business and other customers. So in the future, when her other customers show up (I don't ask questions so I do not know if they give her the respect that I do of scheduling her time) I will leave so as to not create complications for her and stress for me. I think this will work best for both of us. It is unfortunate this situation has developed.

rockie
06-11-2009, 04:22 AM
Victor2: I think your new plan will clear up your issue, one way or the other.

victor2
06-11-2009, 05:37 AM
Thanks Rockie, and I appreciate the imput from the other posters.

vmurphy252
06-11-2009, 06:08 AM
Victor2: I think your new plan will clear up your issue, one way or the other.

^I agree. It will put you both on the same page so that neither of you feels taken advantage of. Good luck!

yoda57us
06-12-2009, 10:30 AM
Thanks Rockie, and I appreciate the imput from the other posters.


What really puzzles me about this entire scenario is that a guy who seems to be doing well enough to spend three to four large a week on a stripper can't spell the word input...

vmurphy252
06-12-2009, 10:53 AM
^I would give that one to a typo...

Golden_Rule
06-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Apparently, you did not read too far into that post, just far enough to make yourself feel good while tearing at a single sentence. If you had read further, you would have seen that I am well aware (despite my inexperience) that, while the line of work is not something you associate with ethics, some dancers and customers DO have them.

You would have also read in my second post that, on one hand, I did agree with you to a small but reasonable extent.

Please read beyond a single sentence before making an ass of yourself.

I read the whole thing. I always read the whole thing.

You just assumed I came back to you with the second response because I didn't understand what you were driving at because I didn't read the whole post.

I disagreed with you because your return post suggested that while I was partially correct [agreed with me to a small extent] that strip-club work is something you wouldn't associate with ethics.

That is the "special arena" theory. Where in the special arena, in this case the strip-club, by virtue of its nature standard ethics get put aside in favor of "situational ethics" specific to the special arena.

The point I am trying to make is that there are no special arenas and there is no such thing as situational ethics. Its either ethical behavior or it isn't.

Perry
06-12-2009, 06:29 PM
Well, here's a fun little nugget of truth - customers like to lie. Oh yes, there's just as much CS as our SS. I've had guys beg and plead that they only have $10 - "PLEASE give me a lap dance anyway!" before sucking it up and hitting the ATM or bumming off a buddy. Then there are the ones claiming they have it all; money, cars, an awesome house. And they want to take us out on a date. To Taco Bell. Or the Wal Mart parking lot. True story.

So for the umpteenth time - we have no way of knowing anyone's financial situation. Ever. Even if they tell us - we do not know for sure and never really will. And thats fine, because it's not our buisness.

Now, I will admit, that near the end of my career I had a lot of customers comming in because they lost their job and I felt a tad bit guilty taking their money. My state was crippled by the rescession and the auto industry's mega fail, so it was a fairly regular thing for dudes to come in for some cheering up. But what should I have done? Told these customers to go home, save their moolah, start budgeting, job searching and PANIC!! "GTFO out of the club!! It's too expensive, you're being frivolous! Here, let me grab a news paper and we'll circle the classified ads together, while you tell me exactly what's in your savings and I'll try to caculate how long you can live off it! And for the love of God, don't spend $7 on a beer - start carrying some 5 O'clock in a flask!" or just said, "Dude, you're fucked. I'm not going to let you spend anything on me, because you should be at home in the fetal position sobbing instead of here."

I would have gotten punched in the boob. And I would have deserved it a little. My job was to entertain, dance, tell jokes, take the guy's mind off of how rough life can be. We're not their wives or accounants. There are no ethics to take into account. If a man is old enough to stare at tits and ass then he's old enough to manage his freaking money.

Golden_Rule
06-12-2009, 07:01 PM
As usual GR's armchair socio-psychobabble makes me chuckle.


Speaking of convenient ignorance:

I was going to debate your points on their merits but I decided, given the direction it seems to be going in by the language your choosing to use above, that I don't want to involve myself in something that is heading into ad hominem tactics.

I'll point out only that:


Second, there is no universal source for ethics. It's internal and pliable as societies evolve, and all too easily ignored when convenient.

This above suggests a belief in special arenas and situational ethics that I simply don't share so its unlikely we'd ever agree when it comes to the topic of ethical behavior.

and..


Now, since you, yourself profit from the trade of sex for money, whether physically, in your pursuit of extras, or financially, from your work at "private parties", shouldn't you recuse yourself and stop posting on this topic? ;)

Well, first off, a purchaser doesn't profit in the sense of monetary gain, so that's weak. Secondly we set up our parties specifically to avoid profiting directly from sexual activity. I've pointed that out before but you must have missed it.

If prostitution is taking place, and we don't check on what our guests are doing in the VIP, the only person profiting from it is the entertainer performing any extras. We get not one cent.

Golden_Rule
06-12-2009, 07:06 PM
So for the umpteenth time - we have no way of knowing anyone's financial situation.

And I'll suggest again that any person with any perception and common sense knows what is usual and average, and thus can use their knowledge of what is usual and average to discern when it might be a good idea to cut someone off. Just as a bartender may not be a doctor, or have a breathalyzer tucked into his armpit, but can use his sense of the usual and average to discern when it is a good idea to tell someone they've had enough.

Naida
06-12-2009, 08:51 PM
Golden_Rule, I really think you have no idea what you are talking about. Every situation is just that, situational.

No two circumstances are ever exactly the same. Say a man shoots another guy. In one case, this could make him a murderer. In another, it could make him a hero. It is all dependent on the situation and its surrounding circumstances.

I am not saying that adult entertainment is a field with no ethics. But it IS a field with minimal general ethics. While one manager in a club will sleep with dancers and get them hooked on drugs without feeling the tiniest amount of guilt, another manager may be truly compassionate and try to help a girl who's strung out to get clean. The second situation is heart warming, but the first is the one the world has come to expect.
This world, like any other culture/subculture, does have its high points and it's disgusting underbelly. All we can do is hope for the good, but expect and be ready for the worst.

Golden_Rule
06-12-2009, 09:40 PM
Golden_Rule, I really think you have no idea what you are talking about. Every situation is just that, situational.

Understand I am speaking only of "The Golden Rule" and limiting what is ethical to that one standard. That single hard and fast rule.

Given that, and only that, situational ethics becomes that were you state that at some point there exists a situation where it is OK to treat someone other than you'd expect to be treated yourself in the same circumstances. I suggest that simply isn't possible without stepping beyond the bounds of ethical behavior.

If you believe differently then, well, you believe differently... but don't say I don't know what I am talking about because I feel you're wrong.


Say a man shoots another guy. In one case, this could make him a murderer. In another, it could make him a hero. It is all dependent on the situation and its surrounding circumstances.

Not at all. The circumstances would obviously be different but the ethical standard set under the TGR the same. For instance:

You shoot someone who isn't hurting you, you did something that person couldn't expect to have done to him if he was in your shoes. Unethical behavior.

You shoot someone trying to kill you, you do precisely to that person what he would do if the situation were reverse. Ethical behavior.

You shoot someone in both scenarios but one is ethically proper and the other isn't as the Golden Rule still applies. You have only done to someone what you would expect them to do to you if the roles were reversed.



I am not saying that adult entertainment is a field with no ethics. But it IS a field with minimal general ethics.

Ethical behavior is ethical behavior is ethical behavior... when boiled down to the one basic covered by TGR you either operate with ethics or you don't. Anything else simply becomes a rationalization for being allowed to treat someone differently than you'd want to be treated in the same circumstances.

If you think differently then here is the challenge: Name a circumstance where everything stays completely the same in both examples BUT it is a righteous/ethical act for direct actions to reward YOU but harm someone else [or harm you but reward someone else]. Remember, exact same circumstances in both examples. Only difference is YOU are on the receiving end in one as compared to someone else in the other.

If you can you have proven the case for situational ethics. If not I suggest you have to conclude there is no such animal.

victor2
06-12-2009, 11:40 PM
I am now contemplating reducing my involvement in this relationship. As I have said before, she is a wonderful person and a friend outside of the club that I really care about. However, our in the club situation is not making me happy any longer and I can see it is stressing her (which is not my intention). I would appreciate some feedback on how to extricate myself without hurting her emotionally and financially. Thanks in advance.

Earl_the_Pearl
06-13-2009, 12:08 AM
For example, if a man gave away much of his assets to a dancer and it broke him so that his family lost their home, etc, I would think it perfectly fair that a wife, as a third party effected; if she could prove her case, suing the dancer in question to get some or all of those assets back. Maybe even have punitive damages accessed for the trouble of having to deal with having herself and maybe her children placed in a homeless situation.


Wasn't this tried with a casino that took a PL life savings? It didn't work. Ofter a PL will give a club his credit card then when they take $10,000 he tries to reverse charges but is screwed and never gets it back. You are asking ravines beasts to let the weak live.

Earl_the_Pearl
06-13-2009, 12:26 AM
I would appreciate some feedback on how to extricate myself without hurting her emotionally and financially. Thanks in advance.
You can't hurt her emotionally; you will hurt her financially if you stop being her ATF PL.

Naida
06-13-2009, 08:09 AM
If you think differently then here is the challenge: Name a circumstance where everything stays completely the same in both examples BUT it is a righteous/ethical act for direct actions to reward YOU but harm someone else [or harm you but reward someone else]. Remember, exact same circumstances in both examples. Only difference is YOU are on the receiving end in one as compared to someone else in the other.

If you can you have proven the case for situational ethics. If not I suggest you have to conclude there is no such animal.

I can name one right now, that I HAVE already personally experienced-

I had an abusive stepfather. Any time my siblings did something wrong, whether intentional or by accident, I was the one they confided in. He knew this and nearly any time something went wrong, I was the second person beat (only after my mother) in an attempt to get me to give up which of my siblings did it. I never snitched. Often times, I even outright took the blame for their actions.
They never did the same for me. Your precious "TGR" never played a role. If they knew I did something wrong, they ratted me the first time asked. I did it purely for the fact that I thought nothing they did justified a beating from a grown man.

Even now that we've grown up, I continue to be the first line of support when my friends and family are in trouble. Half of them have never or very rarely return the gesture, but I still do it out of caring. (Although, nowadays, I only do it if the trouble they got into was on accident or some one else's fault. I'm not going to be a total doormat anymore)

Hopper
06-13-2009, 08:40 AM
OP -

I don't get it. You know her outside the club and you don't get LDs from her or other dancers. Why do you go there?

If you are paying her, she should be with you for that time just like if she was lapdancing for any patron for three hours. (Assuming you are paying her LD rates to talk to you.)

Obvious solution is don't pay her for the time she is with others and don't complain if she does dance with others while you are there. She's not your friend in the club, she's doing business (you know, the reason you are paying her?) and where she takes her business is up to her. When she goes to another patron, stop paying her at that point and start paying again if and when she returns.

bem401
06-13-2009, 08:53 AM
I am now contemplating reducing my involvement in this relationship. As I have said before, she is a wonderful person and a friend outside of the club that I really care about. However, our in the club situation is not making me happy any longer and I can see it is stressing her (which is not my intention). I would appreciate some feedback on how to extricate myself without hurting her emotionally and financially. Thanks in advance.

What do you mean by "reducing my involvement"? If you mean cutting off the cash flow, there's no way that won't hurt her financially if your numbers are accurate. Just tell her the club situation no longer works for you and you are pulling the plug on it. Just be prepared to find out that the entire friendship was an illusion. I'm not saying this will happen but it is a distinct possibility. Many of the girls I know who've had a heavy spender pull the plug have had little use for the guy once the money stopped. Either way, its a win-win situation for you. You'll either find out she legitimately considers you a friend or you'll find out you've been being taken before any more damage is done. If it turns out she is your friend, you can always help her out financially in the future and have it not involve the club.

Almost Jaded
06-14-2009, 02:50 AM
^ pretty much what he said.

As one of the most rampant pro-dancer "custies" here, I still question her overall position in this. You have represented your figures as accurate; if that is the case you may or may not be aware that you likely account for between 50 and 80 percent of her total income based on the figures of top-earners I personally know of - and as I reside in Las Vegas and know a LOT of dancers in many of the top clubs here, my idea of a "top earner" is likely very near the top nationally. Very few (far less than 1%) of all dancers make 3-4k weekly regularly. I have known a couple of them, bt even then I wouldn't call it always reliable. You will have to come to terms with the fact that your withdrawal from the situation will have a very significant impact on her income, and she will react to this in some way; exactly how will depend on how real of a freind she is (not saying she isn't, saying there are a lot of possibilities and I don't know her).

I do know however that even in my most dire financial woes of the past, my financial problems weren't my wealthy freinds/family's problems, and neither is her financial situation your problem. Be as generous as you want - it's your money - but if you are no longer paying for her time at the club, she makes less at the club and that's not your concern in the bigger picture.

Golden_Rule
06-15-2009, 03:23 PM
Ofter a PL will give a club his credit card then when they take $10,000 he tries to reverse charges but is screwed and never gets it back. You are asking ravines beasts to let the weak live.

Not totally true.

A single case, yes, but when a pattern emerges then things change.

The case of what went on in the Scores on 33rd in Manhattan, for instance.

I do agree though that we are talking law of the jungle here and the best way to avoid it is not to be weak.

The problem is, as I keep trying to tell folks with deaf ears, is when you help create an environment whose rule of thumb is the law of the jungle than many decide to go beyond simply being strong enough not to be eaten, but figure the best way to survive is to be a carnivore in their own right. You know, the old lions don't usually eat leopards and vice-versa sort of thing.

Kind of kills the true fun potential for those that just want to be elk, gazelle and water buffalo when you have all those lions and leopards about looking to feed on the weak.

Now, as a misplaced grizzly walking about I don't have a lot to worry about, but the carnage I occasionally get to witness lost its entertainment value a long time ago.

Earl_the_Pearl
06-15-2009, 03:37 PM
Now, as a misplaced grizzly walking about I don't have a lot to worry about, but the carnage I occasionally get to witness lost its entertainment value a long time ago.
In a SC I am often like the month of March; in like a lion out like a lamb. :-[

Golden_Rule
06-15-2009, 03:37 PM
I can name one right now, that I HAVE already personally experienced-

I had an abusive stepfather. Any time my siblings did something wrong, whether intentional or by accident, I was the one they confided in. He knew this and nearly any time something went wrong, I was the second person beat (only after my mother) in an attempt to get me to give up which of my siblings did it. I never snitched. Often times, I even outright took the blame for their actions.
They never did the same for me. Your precious "TGR" never played a role. If they knew I did something wrong, they ratted me the first time asked. I did it purely for the fact that I thought nothing they did justified a beating from a grown man.

Even now that we've grown up, I continue to be the first line of support when my friends and family are in trouble. Half of them have never or very rarely return the gesture, but I still do it out of caring. (Although, nowadays, I only do it if the trouble they got into was on accident or some one else's fault. I'm not going to be a total doormat anymore)

While I am truly sorry this happened to you it doesn't meet the criteria of the test I put before you. In fact it proves my point instead. They should have, if being fair/ethical done the same for you as you did for them because that is what they obviously wanted given the same circumstances. As proven by the fact that they let you hang for them when you took blame for things they had done or put yourself in the way of the beatings they would take if you hadn't. So, as you indicate in your own words, their actions were neither fair, righteous, or ethical.

If it had proven the case for situational ethics the results would have been ethical/fair in both cases. Again, even your own words indicate you don't seem to think it was fair of them to give you up when you took the heat for them to protect them.

BTW, I fully understand your POV as I was the oldest of an abusive father as well and had a similar situation until my alcoholic father left our home.

Golden_Rule
06-15-2009, 03:43 PM
Just be prepared to find out that the entire friendship was an illusion. I'm not saying this will happen but it is a distinct possibility. Many of the girls I know who've had a heavy spender pull the plug have had little use for the guy once the money stopped.

I'd warn him to be prepared for more then that IF this dancer is predatory in nature in any way.

Having a cash input that one becomes dependent or assured of pulled out from under on short notice MAY produce results far more vehement than simply finding out that the "relationship" is not as real as one assumed.

I just thank whatever gods there are that I never had to learn that lesson first hand but picked it up by witnessing what has happened to others [male and female alike as, like everything else between men and women, it works both ways].

Earl_the_Pearl
06-15-2009, 03:58 PM
I'd warn him to be prepared for more then that IF this dancer is predatory in nature in any way.


"Well, what am I supposed to do? You won't answer my calls, you change your number. I mean, I'm not gonna be ignored, victor2!"

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd211/theBUBBAMANcan/FATALATTRACTION.jpg

bem401
06-15-2009, 03:58 PM
I'd warn him to be prepared for more than that IF this dancer is predatory in nature in any way.

Having a cash input that one becomes dependent or assured of pulled out from under on short notice MAY produce results far more vehement than simply finding out that the "relationship" is not as real as one assume.

I just thank whatever gods there are that I never had to learn that lesson first hand but picked it up by witnessing what has happened to others [male and female alike as, like everything else between men and women, it works both ways].

The case I was thinking of supposedly saw the guy's accountant intervene because his business was all but out of cash. I know the girl in question was pissed when the gravy train ended but she knew she was on borrowed time.

Like you, I am grateful I never allowed myself to fall into such a trap, tempted though I might have been to indulge myself.

Golden_Rule
06-15-2009, 03:58 PM
Ok, THAT was funny.

:D

bem401
06-15-2009, 04:01 PM
I liked it too. Change the name and that line is all too common and works in both directions, dancer to customer and vice-versa.

victor2
06-16-2009, 02:37 AM
I am the OP. Yesterday we had an out of the club lunch and discussed all of our issues. She understood my perspective and I understand hers. I think everything will be fine with our issues inside the club going forward. She is and will continue be my ATF and the person I love the most! Thank you again for all the support.

bem401
06-16-2009, 05:44 AM
She is and will continue be my ATF and the person I love the most!

To me, these are ( or at least should be) two mutually-exclusive events.

Earl_the_Pearl
06-16-2009, 12:05 PM
I am the OP. Yesterday we had an out of the club lunch and discussed all of our issues. She understood my perspective and I understand hers. I think everything will be fine with our issues inside the club going forward. She is and will continue be my ATF and the person I love the most! Thank you again for all the support.

The dancers that are reading that are lusting after you; you are what they dream about.

verfolgung
06-16-2009, 12:07 PM
... This is an important issue to me that I'm trying to sort out. I have never had a relationship outside my marriage before. ...


... She is and will continue be my ATF and the person I love the most! ...


Um, what about your wife? /:O

Golden_Rule
06-16-2009, 05:32 PM
I am the OP. Yesterday we had an out of the club lunch and discussed all of our issues. She understood my perspective and I understand hers. I think everything will be fine with our issues inside the club going forward. She is and will continue be my ATF and the person I love the most! Thank you again for all the support.

You see, there is your red flag in the bold print.

I am not saying I know you, or claiming I have inside knowledge of your situation, but if I were a betting man [and I am] I'd lay good change that you are heading at a brick wall at somewhere in the nab of 80mph and, at this moment, have no idea where the brake is located.

I truly wish you well. I mean it. Because if I am right, and I hope that isn't the case, you have some hurt heading your way. I'm crossing my fingers for you and, again, wishing well...

victor2
04-06-2010, 10:59 PM
THIS IS AN UPDATE FROM THE ORIGINAL POSTER: We have continued to enjoy ourselves in the club and outside of the club. I think we both enjoy our time outside the club more (traveling, sightseeing, shopping, and dining). We had a significant problem this afternoon. After a few hours at the club I suggested getting some dances and she complied. I rarely request dances, maybe 2 or 3 times a year and there's always some drama associated. I waited upstairs in an open area for her arrival. At which point she wanted to give me dances where I was waiting for her, which is essentially a hallway with stairs where other customers and entertainers pass by. Plesae be aware that all of the other rooms upstairs are totally private. I told her I was mad and wanted to go to a private room (which by the way I have observed her entering and leaving with other customers). She took me a private room started giving me air dances, but my mood was soured with the experience and I did not want to stay. For your information, I paid her $1,500.00 today. I feel bad, unappreciate and stupid. On my way home she sent me a text apologizing saying she never wanted to hurt me. For some reason I'm getting the feeling she doesn't want to dance for me anymore. I have always been an absolute gentleman. In the early years of our relationship she gave me wonderful and fun dances. I do not understand what is happening and I'm concerned. I have very strong emotional feeling for her and feel very close. I would appreciate constructive comments. Thank you.

Walker
04-07-2010, 12:04 AM
If she sees you as a friend, its completely normal that she doesn't want to dance for you.

SteveSmith
04-07-2010, 04:40 AM
THIS IS AN UPDATE FROM THE ORIGINAL POSTER: We have continued to enjoy ourselves in the club and outside of the club. I think we both enjoy our time outside the club more (traveling, sightseeing, shopping, and dining). We had a significant problem this afternoon. After a few hours at the club I suggested getting some dances and she complied. I rarely request dances, maybe 2 or 3 times a year and there's always some drama associated. I waited upstairs in an open area for her arrival. At which point she wanted to give me dances where I was waiting for her, which is essentially a hallway with stairs where other customers and entertainers pass by. Plesae be aware that all of the other rooms upstairs are totally private. I told her I was mad and wanted to go to a private room (which by the way I have observed her entering and leaving with other customers). She took me a private room started giving me air dances, but my mood was soured with the experience and I did not want to stay. For your information, I paid her $1,500.00 today. I feel bad, unappreciate and stupid. On my way home she sent me a text apologizing saying she never wanted to hurt me. For some reason I'm getting the feeling she doesn't want to dance for me anymore. I have always been an absolute gentleman. In the early years of our relationship she gave me wonderful and fun dances. I do not understand what is happening and I'm concerned. I have very strong emotional feeling for her and feel very close. I would appreciate constructive comments. Thank you.


Yeah, move on to another dancer. You're spending way too much money on her. Find another dancer who'll show you a good time for a fraction of the price. Go to another SC if you have to.

Everyman
04-07-2010, 07:50 AM
You're smart enough to have a high-paying position, but not smart enough to figure this out? That doesn't seem right.

She either tolerates you for the money, or she sees you as a non-sexual friend. Either way, she is not comfortable doing sexual things with you. She is comfortable doing sexual things with sexual partners, or with "strangers" for money. You are neither.

It really doesn't seem that difficult.

yoda57us
04-07-2010, 08:07 AM
A relationship predicated on your spending large amounts of cash is not a friendship. A dancer taking your money and trying to avoid giving you proper dances is not a normal customer/dancer relationship.

Dude, you are being played here big-time. You are emotionally involved with a dancer and she is emotionally involved with your wallet. If you are her friend then stop going to her club and stop spending money on her. See how long the friendship actually lasts. If you are her customer then you have a right to expect good service for your money. If she isn't willing to give it to you it is best to move on. Go to another club if you have to. You are stuck in an emotional limbo because your wallet is allowing your heart to believe in something that is never going to happen. Get out before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have.