View Full Version : Good Idea or Not: Legalizing Prostitution
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Earl_the_Pearl
07-03-2009, 05:16 PM
Careful... not to imply ALL in the first sentence or with the words "most" in the second.
We will have to agree to disagree as you have gotten me scolded by a hot dancer. :'(
Naida
07-04-2009, 09:42 AM
You don’t believe that most women in the industry are victims do you?
I believe that it depends on the woman. Some women are forced into this industry by "boyfriends" or abusive lovers, but there are just as many girls who enter into this business by their own choice.
Now that I have a little more insight to the argument, I would say that- to an extent- a sex addict is a victim. They still have the presence of mind and ability to avoid situations like this though.
For a short time, a therapist I was seeing said that I was definitely suffering from hypersexuality (nymphomania) and was beginning to show signs of sexual dependency/compulsivity. My reaction? I stopped going to the places that I knew would lead to my hopping in bed with the first guy who flirted with me. It was hard and I did sink into a small depression, but that happens with ANY addiction. In the end, I was able to break my addiction. I'm still "hypersexual", but I'm a little more reserved about who I will have sex with.
So unless a hooker just happened to show up where a sex addict was and took advantage of their illness, only then are they a victim. They still have the ability to avoid places where they know they will be tempted though.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 10:19 AM
I believe that it depends on the woman. Some women are forced into this industry by "boyfriends" or abusive lovers, but there are just as many girls who enter into this business by their own choice.
The posters argument went way beyond "boyfriends" making women work in the industry but that human traffickers/kidnappers were supplying much of the workers.
I don't see the industry as completely healthy for ether party. Remember an addict often doesn't see he has a problem and most of the women that go into the business on their own would not if they could get the same money another way.
Naida
07-04-2009, 11:28 AM
The industry is neither healthy or unhealthy. The same applies to ANY industry.
What makes a job a positive or negative one is the people in it, not the job itself.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 11:37 AM
The industry is neither healthy or unhealthy. The same applies to ANY industry.
You do understand prostitution is illegal in 99% of the US of A so right there it is not like any industry. Both parties are willing to break the law to do it.
Naida
07-04-2009, 11:39 AM
I was refering to ALL parts of the SEX industry, not sex for cash alone.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 11:43 AM
I was refering to ALL parts of the SEX industry, not sex for cash alone.
OK but the topic is wether prostitution should be legal. There is a big differance between dancing in a Go-Go bar and being a street walker.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 12:12 PM
^^^ And there's a big difference between street walkers and independent or agency affiliated escorts. I did a lot of research on the sex industry in college, and all my research suggested that street walkers are well in the minority when it comes to prostitutes.
MarvelGirl
07-04-2009, 12:21 PM
With the internet, there's no longer any reason for a woman to be a streetwalker. The only women still working the streets either have violent pimps, drug problems, or desperately need cash within a few hours for some reason or another.
There are literally women who will use the computers in a public library to set up "dates".
As long as we're talking about victims though, any man who utilizes the services of a streetwalker is absolutely taking advantage of a human being in an extremely bad situation. But they don't give a shit because it's cheaper, and most of these guys despise women anyways.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 12:23 PM
most of the women that go into the business on their own would not if they could get the same money another way.
Ok, 2 things...
1) How do you know that? I'm always suspicious of anyone who seems to know how "most women" in the sex industry feel about anything. There's really no reliable data out there on how sex workers feel about their jobs, and sex workers are notoriously difficult subjects to get interviews from. However, in recent years, more and more escorts have been making their voices heard on blogs, in books, in publications like "Spread." And what they have to say would suggest that they're not all just miserable and looking for a way out. Many of them really do enjoy their work.
and
2) So what if they do do it for the money? A lot of people do their jobs for the money. A lot of people chose their careers and jobs specifically because it offered the kind of income they were looking for. Why exactly do you go to work, if not to be able make a living and pay your bills? Though there are a lot of other perks to the industry as well- the freedom to work for yourself, to have a lot of free time to devote to other pursuits, to come and go from it as you please, etc. I have to object to the idea that doing your job just to get paid somehow makes your job intrinsically degrading or unhealthy. It seems the sex industry is the only area in which our culture really feels this way.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 12:26 PM
With the internet, there's no longer any reason for a woman to be a streetwalker. The only women still working the streets either have violent pimps, drug problems, or desperately need cash within a few hours for some reason or another.
Exactly. The women who have serious problems and are working on the streets likely already had such a lifestyle well before they started street walking. Virtually any woman can find an agency that will take her and be working within a day or so. I have a friend who lost her home and had to go live in a shelter, and she was still able to escort through an agency.
Naida
07-04-2009, 12:30 PM
And as I've stated before, I think that it should be legalized, not decriminalized. Decriminalization would open the door for more victimization. Legalization provides oppurtunity for regulation and safer practice, where the chance of trafficking/victimization won't dramaticly increase, quite possibly even decrease.
Whether you agree with my stance or not, that is my opinion.
Naida
07-04-2009, 12:33 PM
Ok, 2 things...
1) How do you know that? I'm always suspicious of anyone who seems to know how "most women" in the sex industry feel about anything. There's really no reliable data out there on how sex workers feel about their jobs, and sex workers are notoriously difficult subjects to get interviews from. However, in recent years, more and more escorts have been making their voices heard on blogs, in books, in publications like "Spread." And what they have to say would suggest that they're not all just miserable and looking for a way out. Many of them really do enjoy their work.
and
2) So what if they do do it for the money? A lot of people do their jobs for the money. A lot of people chose their careers and jobs specifically because it offered the kind of income they were looking for. Why exactly do you go to work, if not to be able make a living and pay your bills? Though there are a lot of other perks to the industry as well- the freedom to work for yourself, to have a lot of free time to devote to other pursuits, to come and go from it as you please, etc. I have to object to the idea that doing your job just to get paid somehow makes your job intrinsically degrading or unhealthy. It seems the sex industry is the only area in which our culture really feels this way.
And THANK YOU.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 12:36 PM
The posters argument went way beyond "boyfriends" making women work in the industry but that human traffickers/kidnappers were supplying much of the workers.
No, your brain keeps jumping to these extreme all or nothing arguments. I never said blah blah "were supplying MUCH of the workers". Frankly I really don't know what percentage is voluntary vs involuntary in countries where it has been decriminalized. Why? Because even the governments don't know because they don't count the cases that are not reported.
Is it many? Who knows. But...
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/laws/000022.html
"Legalized or decriminalized prostitution industries are one of the root
causes of sex trafficking. One argument for legalizing prostitution in
the Netherlands was that legalization would help end the exploitation
of desperate immigrant women trafficked for prostitution. A report done
for the governmental Budapest Group* stated that 80% of women in the
brothels in the Netherlands are trafficked from other countries (Budapest
Group, 1999: 11). As early as 1994, the International Organization of
Migration (IOM) stated that in the Netherlands alone, nearly 70 per cent
of trafficked women were from CEEC [Central and Eastern European Countries]"
"As early as 1993, after the first steps towards legalization
had been taken, it was recognized (even by pro-prostitution advocates)
that 75 per cent of the women in Germany's prostitution industry were
foreigners from Uruguay, Argentina, Paraguay and other countries in South
America (Altink, 1993: 33). After the fall of the Berlin wall, brothel
owners reported that 9 out of every 10 women in the German sex industry
were from eastern Europe (Altink, 1993: 43) and other former Soviet countries. "
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78830.htm
"The country was a destination and transit point for trafficked persons. NGOs and the police estimated that the number of women and girls trafficked for the purpose of sexual exploitation ranged from 1,000 to 3,600. The Foundation Against Trafficking in Women (STV), an independent NGO that helped victims of trafficking, registered 424 victims in 2005, up from 405 in 2004. The top five countries of origin were the Netherlands (98),..."
You can do your own research, but even though I never said "MUCH", you don't have to look hard to find articles that repeatedly suggest that the world isn't so simple. That simply legalizing or decriminalizing sex could result in a dramatic increase in human trafficking (if we do nothing to prevent it).
Let me try to put it like this... if legalizing (or decriminalizing) prostitution resulted in 10x as many legit works, and say a 2x increase in human trafficking, I'd still think that was cause for concern. That there is no reason not to face that possible side effect straight up, that if we don't do something to prevent it, trafficking will increase.
If that makes anyone uncomfy because it is no longer as simple as it seemed, that is not my problem. We can often learn a lot about the consequences of changes in laws by learning from history, the mistakes and success of others, including this question of legalizing prostitution. Versus just closing our eyes and wishing that it will all be happy happy joy joy.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 12:40 PM
^^^ The report seems to imply that anyone who is foreign and working in a brothel is a "trafficked woman" being held against her will. That seems like quite an assumption.
safado
07-04-2009, 01:11 PM
I have been to Brazil a few times and there have been several working girls that have told me that during the slow season (the brazilian winter) they go to Europe to work. They tell me they go there because the euro is strong and can make a lot of money, also it is easy for them to go there unlike getting into the U.S., Spain and Germany are popular with the ladies.
If the "trafficking victims" were investigated it would probably be found that they are just some of the smart hookers following the money.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 01:15 PM
... most of the women that go into the business on their own would not if they could get the same money another way.
Ok, 2 things...
1) How do you know that? I'm always suspicious of anyone who seems to know how "most women" in the sex industry feel about anything.
Though there are a lot of other perks to the industry as well- the freedom to work for yourself, to have a lot of free time to devote to other pursuits, to come and go from it as you please, etc.
The way I see it is it is an illegal activity with a very real chance of arrest and her real name and picture appearing in the local paper. I'm not talking about the type of work but that it is illegal and just being illegal brings problems that are not industry specific.
Wouldn't most women choose a legal job that had the same benefit if they could? I know a hobbyist given a choice of a legal provider as opposed to an illegal one would chose the former; same benefit with no chance of arrest.
I noticed in your list of benefits you did not mention meeting customers.
Naida
07-04-2009, 01:19 PM
It seems that we're all getting a good bit OT, especially with Earl's ranting about it currently being illegal.
While the talk about trafficking and victims are indeed valid, let's try to stick to whether or not it should be legalized/decriminalized and not go off galavanting about current laws.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 01:27 PM
^^^ Meeting customers is a mixed bag. Just like in the strip club, some people you're thrilled to see. Others you barely tolerate. And most industries involve the opportunity to meet people, so I didn't think meeting people was so specific to the sex industry. Except in the sex industry, you're less likely to be able to create a friendship with customers that exists outside of work. So if creating lasting relationships or "real" friendships is something one is looking for in a job, I wouldn't suggest the sex industry at all. It can be a rather isolating industry.
I'm sure many Johns would prefer to legally see prostitutes. But what you're saying more likely suggests that escorts would prefer to be able to continue doing their chosen work under the safety that legality would provide them, not that they would rather give it up all together.
And the fact is, there just aren't many alternatives that provide the benefits that sex work does. There aren't a lot of jobs that offer that kind of pay, in such short amount of time, with that kind of flexibility, that allow you to be your own boss, with little to no upfront cost or time investment (like schooling). So whether escorts would prefer a legal job that offered such benefits seems moot, since it doesn't exist.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 01:38 PM
^^^ The report seems to imply that anyone who is foreign and working in a brothel is a "trafficked woman" being held against her will. That seems like quite an assumption.
Yea, that is the problem. Hard to know what the truth is, but also easy to believe whatever we want. Some of my Dutch friends (including a couple of 25yr old women) don't think there is a big problem with trafficking, but they believe most prostitutes end up hooked on drugs (to deal with it). The stigma level remains very high, even in a country where it is has been decriminalized for many years.
Don't know... it's all just trade offs.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 01:58 PM
But what you're saying more likely suggests that escorts would prefer to be able to continue doing their chosen work under the safety that legality would provide them, not that they would rather give it up all together.
That is a gray area. As a man it is hard to put myself into a providers shoes. I would never be a gay provider under any circumstances; some heterosexual do. I could see enjoying my job if I could have only clean attractive women as clients; I would probably do it for free. That is the black and white of my thinking; other clients fall into a gray area.
This is where the OTC provider has an advantage as she gets to meet and talk to a customer before agreeing to a date. In fact both parties can pretend it is something else.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 02:01 PM
Some of my Dutch friends (including a couple of 25yr old women) don't think there is a big problem with trafficking, but they believe most prostitutes end up hooked on drugs (to deal with it). The stigma level remains very high, even in a country where it is has been decriminalized for many years.
So why add to the stigma by keeping it illegal? Or are you saying women that would not normally be providers would get into the business if it were legal?
xdamage
07-04-2009, 02:13 PM
So why add to the stigma by keeping it illegal? Or are you saying women that would not normally be providers would get into the business if it were legal?
That is a big assumption and connection of cause and effect.
What if it is not true?
See I would say the stigma doesn't really change any. From what I've seen, no change. Society still sees a prostitute in the same negative light as before.
It seemingly has little to do with the law, and a LOT to do with human nature and how we humans feel about sex. That is to say, the law was created by us humans because of how we actually feel about sex, not the other way around.
The proof is in what so many people continue to say even in this thread. Legal fine, but how do they feel about it for a wife? mom? daughter? If it was legal would you approve? Is that really the only reason you don't want a wife/gf, mom or daughter in the business, because of a law? Oops, all those damn human emotions bubble up...
It remains a very personal matter for many, as well a significant point of emotional power in relationships that people intertwine many emotions in with sex.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 02:21 PM
The proof is in what so many people continue to say even in this thread. Legal fine, but how do they feel about it for a wife? mom? daughter? If it was legal would you approve? Is that really the only reason you don't want a wife/gf, mom or daughter in the business, because of a law? Oops, all those damn human emotions bubble up...
It remains a very personal matter for many, as well a significant point of emotional power in relationships that people intertwine many emotions in with sex.
See, therein lies the whole point of making it legal from my POV. It doesn't matter what you would want for your wife/gf/mom/daughter. What matters is what SHE wants. Just like you don't get a say in those people's regular sex lives now. When it comes to what consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies, the rest of us don't get a vote.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 02:59 PM
When it comes to what consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies, the rest of us don't get a vote.
That is true until money changes hands. People can have all of the sex they want just not for money; or at least not directly tie the money to the sex.
I can take a women shopping and have sex as long as the shopping is not directly tied to the sex. Perhaps it is the pretence of a relationship that makes it OK in societies eyes.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 03:02 PM
^^^ Which is why I said from my POV, Earl. Obviously, from a current legal standpoint is does make a difference, as is the very point of this thread.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 03:18 PM
See, therein lies the whole point of making it legal from my POV. It doesn't matter what you would want for your wife/gf/mom/daughter. What matters is what SHE wants. Just like you don't get a say in those people's regular sex lives now. When it comes to what consenting adults choose to do with their own bodies, the rest of us don't get a vote.
Yea, I know. Like I said I have a lot of ambivalence over the matter so don't confuse my playing devils advocate with a solid stance. For those who are actually consenting, it is a no brainer of course, let them choose as they will.
Still you say it is about what SHE wants. The problem is at the moment it is illegal for both females and males to sell, or buy. Society is actually limiting both parties. There is an imbalance in buyers vs sellers, but this is apparently just human nature; the laws didn't create that imbalance though. It is popular conspiracy theory to believe so, but I would socio-biologists would say no, it crosses all cultures and so is human nature at play.
But consider... most wives/gf/daughters don't care if their husband/dad goes to the movies for entertainment, but they sure do care if they go to see a prostitute. "Hey honey, I'm off to get laid by a hot young prostitute tonight. It is legal so no stigma, and it's my body so it's my right!" This just doesn't fly for most women either.
It is a societal matter that involves both sexes, and there is also stigma for the Johns. Hey, I don't even know how many female prostitutes would be okay with their husbands, BFs, sons using, or being male prostitutes? Look at how many times it has come up here that dancers would not be okay with their SOs spending money on other strippers... how do u really think they'd respond to their SOs spending money on prostitutes? "Hey, it doesn't matter what my wife/gf, daughter, or mom wants!" True, fair, we can all say that about anything in life, but also it actually does matter. We are part of a society, and as beneficiaries of societies benefits, fact is other people in the society do get some say over our freedoms.
But I don't know how even a prostitute would feel about their SOs being sex workers? "Hey honey, I'm off to work, got several clients lined up, some guys and some women today so I'll be home late". I am doubtful most women would be okay with that, even though it is his body, and he can of course do whatever he wants (well limited by the law, which at the moment makes male prostitution illegal just the same as women).
Anyway... I kind of liked Paris' idea. Since it is illegal now, what would happen if we legalized it, but made it all above the board. Say, require workers be US citizens for at least 5 years? Require 1 years in advance application, allowed to register at 17 with parental consent, or wait a year until 18, can work at 19? Completion of a licensing course, a few weeks. Require use of condoms, regular STD testing, renewal of license? Of course people would hate the intrustion, but since at the moment it is completely illegal, this would be a lifting of some of the restrictions. It might also help to limit workers who are forced, trafficked, doing it out of immediate need vs long term planning.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 03:30 PM
Still you say it is about what SHE wants. The problem is at the moment it is illegal for both females and males to sell, or buy. Society is actually limiting both parties. There is an imbalance in buyers vs sellers, but this is apparently just human nature; the laws didn't create that imbalance though. It is popular conspiracy theory to believe so, but I would socio-biologists would say no, it crosses all cultures and so is human nature at play.
But consider... most wives/gf/daughters don't care if their husband/dad goes to the movies for entertainment, but they sure do care if they go to see a prostitute. "Hey honey, I'm off to get laid by a hot young prostitute tonight. It is legal so no stigma, and it's my body so it's my right!" This just doesn't fly for most women either.
It is a societal matter that involves both sexes, and there is also stigma for the Johns. Hey, I don't even know how many female prostitutes would be okay with their husbands, BFs, sons using, or being male prostitutes? Look at how many times it has come up here that dancers would not be okay with their SOs spending money on other strippers... how do u really think they'd respond to their SOs spending money on prostitutes? "Hey, it doesn't matter what my wife/gf, daughter, or mom wants!" True, fair, we can all say that about anything in life, but also it actually does matter. We are part of a society, and as beneficiaries of societies benefits, fact is other people in the society do get some say over our freedoms.
But I don't know how even a prostitute would feel about their SOs being sex workers? "Hey honey, I'm off to work, got several clients lined up, some guys and some women today so I'll be home late". I am doubtful most women would be okay with that, even though it is his body, and he can of course do whatever he wants (well limited by the law, which at the moment makes male prostitution illegal just the same as women).
I realize that there are sex workers of both sexes. I said she because everyone you referenced (daughters, mothers, etc) are "shes".
People in our lives get say over our freedoms to the extent that we allow them to. Just as your gf has a right to say "I'm going to work as an escort and you can't stop me!" You have the right to say "In that case, I don't want to be with you anymore." It's up to each couple to decide together what their definition of fidelity is. If they can't come to a consensus, they have a choice- either compromise, or split up and find someone who's more compatible.
All this seems irrelevant. We're not talking about what's appropriate in a relationship. We're talking about what should be legal. If it's not illegal for your girlfriend to sleep with other men, I don't see why it should be illegal for her to do the same thing and charge for it.
And you're right- you don't know how sex workers feel about their sex working partners. Personally, I would be open to having a partner who was an escort. There are lots of couples in which both partners work in the sex industry.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 03:35 PM
I realize that there are sex workers of both sexes. I said she because everyone you referenced (daughters, mothers, etc) are "shes".
People in our lives get say over our freedoms to the extent that we allow them to. Just as your gf has a right to say "I'm going to work as an escort and you can't stop me!" You have the right to say "In that case, I don't want to be with you anymore." It's up to each couple to decide together what their definition of fidelity is. If they can't come to a consensus, they have a choice- either compromise, or split up and find someone who's more compatible.
All this seems irrelevant. We're not talking about what's appropriate in a relationship. We're talking about what should be legal. If it's not illegal for your girlfriend to sleep with other men, I don't see why it should be illegal for her to do the same thing and charge for it.
And you're right- you don't know how sex workers feel about their sex working partners. Personally, I would be open to having a partner who was an escort. There are lots of couples in which both partners work in the sex industry.
The thing is I actually agree with you. What people choose to do between them as adults should be between them. Your also right about the either side can say "no" and find someone else, and that takes care of that problem. I just meant, there are some very deep feelings behind human sexuality and those won't go away, even if legalized.
Really then my only issue with it become legal is can it be done in a way that doesn't contribute to the problem of young women being forced into it? The non-consenting cases?
If that was addressed, then there'd be nothing to object too of course.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 03:35 PM
Anyway... I kind of liked Paris' idea. Since it is illegal now, what would happen if we legalized it, but made it all above the board. Say, require workers be US citizens for at least 5 years? Require 1 years in advance application, allowed to register at 17 with parental consent, or wait a year until 18, can work at 19? Completion of a licensing course, a few weeks. Require use of condoms, regular STD testing, renewal of license? Of course people would hate the intrustion, but since at the moment it is completely illegal, this would be a lifting of some of the restrictions. It might also help to limit workers who are forced, trafficked, doing it out of immediate need vs long term planning.
And I'll give the same response I gave to Paris (and which she agreed with) that I don't think that's realistic. Some of it, yes, but a year long waiting period? It just doesn't jive with the benefits that attract people to the sex industry in the first place. You can go ahead and make it a law of course, but I don't think it would do much good as many people would just opt to work illegally. People often get into the sex industry- all areas of it, dancing, phone sex, etc) out of immediate need. I don't see why the option to do that should be eliminated. Especially since it probably won't work and if people really do have an immediate need then they'll just do it anyway, legal or not.
Chromium47
07-04-2009, 03:36 PM
If prostitution was legal, what if an owner wanted to open a club where stripping happened in the front and hooking happened in the back? Shouldn't he be allowed to do that?
Something very similar to this exists in Tijuana. They have giant bars/clubs where girls are hustling for drinks and lap dances, and to "take you upstairs". While most of the clientel go there to get laid, there are very many who treat it like an American SC, just buying girls drinks and tipping a lot without cheating on their wives.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 03:37 PM
Really then my only issue with it become legal is can it be done in a way that doesn't contribute to the problem of young women being forced into it? The non-consenting cases?
It would be interesting to know if this is a problem that exists in Nevada brothels. And if not, how they avoid it.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 03:39 PM
Something very similar to this exists in Tijuana. They have giant bars/clubs where girls are hustling for drinks and lap dances, and to "take you upstairs". While most of the clientel go there to get laid, there are very many who treat it like an American SC, just buying girls drinks and tipping a lot without cheating on their wives.
I've heard varying viewpoints on this. I recall someone else on this board years ago saying he went to these "strip clubs" not realizing that they weren't traditional SCs, and was frequently asked to leave when it was clear he wasn't going to be "going upstairs." Others have said that these are merely fronts for brothels and that little to no dancing goes on.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 03:48 PM
.. People often get into the sex industry- all areas of it, dancing, phone sex, etc) out of immediate need. I don't see why the option to do that should be eliminated. Especially since it probably won't work and if people really do have an immediate need then they'll just do it anyway, legal or not.
Right. I think though that is a key reason why it has remained illegal.
That it is not crystal clear that the immediate need of someone who is say, 18, is actually consenting.
What I mean is.. there is this big fuzzy grey area where we commonly argue that 16yr olds are not fully mature, 17 on average a bit more but still not fully, 18 more so, but still not fully, etc... So it is reasonable I think for society as a whole to protect younger people from each other, but also from themselves. For example, a 16 year old with a ?chosen? drug problem we'd feel inclined to help, and we feel inclined to discourage it since for many, a drug problem can end up being a problem (both to them, and a drain on society).
I guess it is hard because it is the fuzzy cases that make this topic debatable. I don't know too many people except bible thumpers and politicians looking for votes that care what consenting "adults" choose. But I also can't be entirely upset by people having ambivalent feelings about what 18 year olds do in moments of imminent need, possibly to their own long term detriment.
I can see how that can seem purely nosy, self motivated, but hey, that is one way to see ALL of our tendencies to have concerns about each other, especially younger people. It is both self-serving, and also on some levels, a positive thing that we're not completely complacent with the choices each other makes. As a society, we're all intertwined over the long run even if individual choices often seem harmless.
Hey, sometimes my mixed feelings drive some people nuts, so I hope I'm not having the effect on you by replying. Some matters are just murky to me
;)
Elvia
07-04-2009, 03:55 PM
^^^ Yes, but we allow 18 year olds to make adult choices in other areas, even though we might be ambivalent about it. An 18 year old can decide to join the military and put their life on the line. An 18 year old can make the decision to start buying cigarettes and also risk their life. An 18 year old can make any choice they want in regards to their sex life (as long as it involves consenting adults), but they can't make the choice to do the same thing and get paid for it? It doesn't really make sense.
It's healthy to be concerned about others. But we shouldn't let "concern" give us license to push our own morality on others. At the end of the day, consenting adults need to be allowed to do what they choose with their bodies and with other consenting adults.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 04:01 PM
^^^ Yes, but we allow 18 year olds to make adult choices in other areas, even though we might be ambivalent about it. An 18 year old can decide to join the military and put their life on the line. An 18 year old can make the decision to start buying cigarettes and also risk their life. An 18 year old can make any choice they want in regards to their sex life (as long as it involves consenting adults), but they can't make the choice to do the same thing and get paid for it? It doesn't really make sense.
It's healthy to be concerned about others. But we shouldn't let "concern" give us license to push our own morality on others. At the end of the day, consenting adults need to be allowed to do what they choose with their bodies and with other consenting adults.
Fair points all.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 04:03 PM
If anyone does have info on how Nevada brothels deal with issues of trafficking, that would be really interesting to hear about.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 04:06 PM
Some of it, yes, but a year long waiting period? It just doesn't jive with the benefits that attract people to the sex industry in the first place. ...
Especially since it probably won't work and if people really do have an immediate need then they'll just do it anyway, legal or not.
Providers can do it illegally but the customer base will not be there if the customer can do it legally. The waiting period would keep those that may be desperate out of the business; those are the ones that may have lasting problems.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 04:10 PM
^^^ I don't think that's true. There's always streetwalking. And one of the main appeals of streetwalking (for customers) is that it's usually a lot cheaper than an escort.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 04:29 PM
Cheaper and more anonymous then walking into a brothel where others may see you, but... yea Earl identified the potential benefits, but also Elvia is correct about the other side of the coin.
There may be no perfect solution, only trade offs (typical of life), so again the main thing would be, can we legalize it without making the USA the new #1 spot for sex tourists, followed closely the human traffickers that would want to capitalize on it?
FWIW, regarding Nevada Brothels.. an interesting story I just goggled:
http://www.womenwriters.net/may2003/archer.html
" The brothel is saturated with rules and regulations. In San Francisco, before the cop aimed a gun at my head, I had worked under a diffuse but constant threat of arrest. In this legal but tightly controlled laboratory, intimidation tactics are more direct.I’ve been registered with the police, photographed, fingerprinted, and surveyed."
" I feel somewhat protected here—but at what price? I am forbidden to work outside the brothel. I have to abide by their rules and give them half my pay. It doesn't feel that different from the classic trade-off, where "good girls" give up their sexual freedom in hope of protection from sexual violence."
"Then I ran into mainstream America head-on in a Nevada brothel.From what I've seen, legalized prostitution is extremely confining. In some brothels the girls can't leave the premises, but we can ask for time off when we need it."
Seemingly it works, but they've moved the brothels far away from the main city, and runs far short of allowing consenting adults to do as they choose without government interference.
MarvelGirl
07-04-2009, 05:18 PM
If anyone does have info on how Nevada brothels deal with issues of trafficking, that would be really interesting to hear about.
If someone can force a woman to go interview (by herself) at a brothel, go to the sherrif's station (by herself) to get her work card, go to the health department (by herself) and talk to several people about safety and std prevention and undergo an examination, and then force her to stay in a brothel where pimps/boyfriends/husbands/managers, etc. are not allowed...
Hell, then give that man a medal because I am impressed. You can't force someone into a legal brothel, it would be discovered within moments and the police would be called because they don't want to lose their licenses. I was once working at a brothel when some lowlife tried to put one of his "girls" to work there. The authorities were called and he went to jail while one scared young girl was returned to her parents.
After going through the process of applying for and working at several Nevada brothels, I don't believe there's any chance of human trafficking going on at these places. None at all.
MarvelGirl
07-04-2009, 05:21 PM
In some brothels the girls can't leave the premises, but we can ask for time off when we need it."
This irritates me. I've heard these quotes before and I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. In the southern Nevada brothels, girls agree to a contract length before ever arriving at the brothel. They are not allowed to leave ONLY during that contract. You don't become a slave to the brothel upon being hired and have to beg to take time off.
You fulfill your contract, then go home. Then, whenever you want to, you can set up a new contract with new terms and go fulfill that contract. That's how it works. If a lady doesn't like it, she can go work up North, or just not be a hooker.
JayATee
07-04-2009, 05:30 PM
If someone can force a woman to go interview (by herself) at a brothel, go to the sherrif's station (by herself) to get her work card, go to the health department (by herself) and talk to several people about safety and std prevention and undergo an examination, and then force her to stay in a brothel where pimps/boyfriends/husbands/managers, etc. are not allowed...
Hell, then give that man a medal because I am impressed. You can't force someone into a legal brothel, it would be discovered within moments and the police would be called because they don't want to lose their licenses. I was once working at a brothel when some lowlife tried to put one of his "girls" to work there. The authorities were called and he went to jail while one scared young girl was returned to her parents.
After going through the process of applying for and working at several Nevada brothels, I don't believe there's any chance of human trafficking going on at these places. None at all.
Thank you. This pretty much brings it back full circle to saying that legalizing it the way Nevada has would be a good idea if it was going to become legal at all.
Elvia
07-04-2009, 06:56 PM
can we legalize it without making the USA the new #1 spot for sex tourists
I really doubt that would happen. Lots of countries have legalized prostitution lately (Australia and Germany are just two examples that spring to mind) and this doesn't appear to be happening to them. It'd be pretty hard to compete with SE Asia for that title.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-04-2009, 07:12 PM
After going through the process of applying for and working at several Nevada brothels, I don't believe there's any chance of human trafficking going on at these places. None at all.
You should tell that to those with an agenda.
Both Farley and Howard say the buying, selling, and trading of women for sex is what makes prostitution a human rights violation. "It's no different if it's legal or illegal prostitution, women are being abused and victimized and no one has the right to sell another human being," Howard said.
"People want to limit to thinking that strip dancing is not prostitution, yes it is, most of the women are being forced to do things, they're not there because they're great dancers, they're there to provide a service in the backroom," says Olivia Howard who knows about the grim reality of selling her body.
xdamage
07-04-2009, 07:25 PM
Marvel makes good points, especially about the steps that are required to work, which should filter out trafficking.
Vegas remains strangely schizophrenic because the brothels really are not in Vegas, but 60 some miles away. Even "Sin City" still has trouble with it being too close, though continues to tolerate the illegal Escorts in small numbers doing business in the hotels at nights.
Hey, we people are bizarro. But yea, good points that the Nevada model seems to work.
Earl_the_Pearl
07-05-2009, 04:00 AM
The stigma level remains very high, even in a country where it is has been decriminalized for many years.
It sure does; "Amsterdam considering bank help for prostitutes."
It appears even though it is legal and they make good money they can not get loans for a car or house.
"For them it is a hazard that they can not get regular credit or help or mortgages or anything from a regular bank."
Almost Jaded
07-05-2009, 04:11 AM
Thank you MarvelGirl for saving me a long post re how it works here, lol.
I think it should be legalized and highly regulated. It's the schizoid feminists and conservatives (which I'm usually considered, LMAO) who fuck this and so much more up.
Favorite way to make a feminazi turn red and explode: Get her going on her pro-choice "my body my chouce" rant. Then ask her her stance on strippers or even better, legal prostitution. When she finishes THAT rant, say "but it's their body and their choice". Stand back to avoid exploding brain matter, and very possibly a good overhand right.
Good, clean fun.
Anyway...
Jack - bill collecters get away with that until you start taking notes about call times and statements. As the victim of identity theft leading to a Ch7 BK, I have had my fill of collection agencies, and how they work. They cannot - under sever penalties - call after 9 pm. They may call until they get an answer; once they identify themselvee - which they must do before conducting ANY business - they may NOT call back that same day unless it was at your request. They may not call (per that last definition) more than 3 times in one week. Yes, they violate these laws and many, many others frequently - unti you start calling them on it. They shape up REAL fast; it's EASY to sue a collection agency and they know damn well they're going to lose if there;s a jury present!
There's a reason that's relevent. Jacks asinie claim about teh bill colectors isn't as asinine as one would think. In fact, I'm surprised it hasn't come up. There are documented cases in Norway of women in deep financial trouble losing their children and/or other similarly distressing problems who were told in court that they had not done all they could to provide/pay because they could have become prostitutes and did not. In America this wouldn't fly, but it has elsewhere and there are those here who would try.
That said; creating porn used to be criminal, now it's a billion dollar business. Those workers get paid to fuck in ways many prostitutes won't. It's protected under the 1st amendment. So pretty much - videotape your acts with prostitutes. You could offer it for sale for a guaranteed get out fo jail free card for you and the hooker, or claim it's part of a private collection and have to defend it a little more. But you couldn't be touched. Not joking.
Human trafficking - not if it's regulated like here. No way.
And another thing about the brothels in this state that is being missed here - it's not like anyone can just open one up, even where it is legal. The process is ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE - the laws are SO twisted that yu actually have to break some to pass others. So those who have the pull get the licenses, and nobody else can, and that's how they want it to stay. Until a big player throws a LOT of money at it, it's going to stay that way.
The Escort services are almost all mob run. The last great bastion for those guys. Opening up a service in this town if you're not connected is a VERY risky proposition (no pun intended) indeed. They're tolerated the same way brothels get licenses - connections. It will never become over abundant because the people running it will never let it be.
And yes - extras girels fuck it up for regular girls quite a bit. There are a few at (almost named the club, realized there might be a slander issue there...) that we (my love, her freinds, and I) tell "why doin't you just go to Pahrump and make way more money?" Answer? NO SHIT? "Fuck you - I'm not a whore!" This after running into the back to spit, or wiping cum off her hands in the dressing room, or THROWING A CONDOM IN THE GARBAGE IN FUKLL VIEW OF OTHER GIRLS... Amazing...
xdamage
07-05-2009, 06:40 AM
It appears even though it is legal and they make good money they can not get loans for a car or house.
I don't know if they can't but I do know the 25something women I worked with in NL, who grew up with the mantra "it's just a job", who themselves are very liberal, still refer to it as being a "whore" (the negative way) and no way in hell they'd do it.
Maybe that will change in time and sex will become increasingly commoditized? or maybe human sexuality is just not something that the majority of people can completely dis-intewine from other emotions.
It's not too hard to imagine a world in which sex is so commonly available for a fee, the stigma so drops that everyone can do it for a while to make money, competition increases dramatically, prices plummet, sex is increasingly seen as something of adding little "special" value to interpersonal relationships.... strangely I think on some level it is these unknowns that are also contributing (even if people aren't fully aware of it) to the overall reason people resist decriminalizing it .... what are the final long term unknowns if we continue down this social path? I don't know but I can imagine outcomes that are mixes of positives and negatives.
ExDancer
07-05-2009, 06:45 AM
I grew up in Nevada where it's legal in many counties. Nothing to be ashamed of - I knew plenty of girls who were very matter of fact about it and proud of it. I was also proud that we had the brothels. I think it goes hand in hand with a woman's right to chose - it's the same argument: it's her body. For those who don't agree with abortion rights, prostitution is certainly a woman's right to chose. The only reason it's illegal is purely religious.