View Full Version : NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !
eagle2
07-31-2009, 10:21 PM
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OK. These (somewhat realistic) details show how products are costed out. The initial selling cost and quantity estimates determine everything about the product's place in the market. You can't just lower the planned selling price without larger disturbances in production facilities and the operation's viability.
What do you do if nobody is buying products at the cost you're selling them for?
threlayer
07-31-2009, 11:08 PM
My furniture company has an owner who has not succumbed to typical corporate greed. He knows that in the long term stability is better than opportunism. He has a wise Board of Directors that sees his company is smart about its long-term viability, to wit: a quality product reliably delivered, customers whose happiness are paramount, workers who have profit sharing and have been trained in many assembly skills and equipment and thus who have the company's well-being in mind every day. The owner brought the company up from his garage 30 years ago and is a hands-on guy who is well-connected with suppliers and distributors. His full-time professional staff of 2 design engineers, 2 bookkeepers, 1 computer support, 5 sales staff, 3 purchasing staff, 2 maintenance engineers are also profit-shared. The three senior staff members are being readied for secondary management duties an often accompany the owner on his rounds. The other professional staff occasionally come and go, but its 150 production workers are pretty stable, except for the apprentice/part-timers. Wages are not the highest in the area, but the profit-sharing amount is usually quite significant. A few years ago the Board of Directors suggested that profit-sharing allows a company to have equity-holders who also have the company well-being constantly in mind. He has given up on cost-competitive products and is concentrating on several upscale lines and a variety of products. He knows the Chinese are making progress in marketing their wares, but thru his distributors and his own market awareness, the company is still doing pretty well. His customers see new and improved products coming out almost every season and his spare parts business indicates he keeps them happy. He expands his production facility only when absolutely necessary with long-term stability in mind--only when productivity is slowing down due to floor space limits will he add square feet. The plant is a bit crowded, but is well-ventilated with lots of directed lighting. His versatile engineering staff works closely with its tooling suppliers, and they have made some well-regarded innovations with a few patents pending. A while back the staff looked into making rather than buying upholstery fabrics in a shut-down nearby mill facility, since the previous supplier was going under due to foreign competition and unwise expansion. They spent some months looking for another quaity fabric supplier, but eventually had to go to the Chinese. The Chinese quality control was initially marginal, but working with them and a secondary seasonal supplier seemed to fix the problem for now. He and his engineers are always watching for new regulations they must meet such as EPA and local pollution laws. They use non-polluting protective water-based coatings to replace the former product which used to be a hazard. Much of their waste is recycled or reformed into smaller parts which are used in production. The company's local participation is largely contributions of time to various causes and a summer employment program for high achieving youth. The company rarely has to apply for loans due to its wise use of working capital and retained earnings. When they were considering expanding into fabrics, they included their banker in the most relevant discussions and site visits.
threlayer
07-31-2009, 11:29 PM
^^^ agreed, a well presented example .... BUT ...
Arguably, it is possible to achieve cost reductions on many levels WITHOUT being forced to reduce product quality. The method of doing this involves using cheaper labor, cheaper but dirtier energy, less expensive or non-existant employee benefit costs, less expensive or non-existant environmental compliance costs, less expensive or non-existant worker safety costs etc. In line with your specific example, those contoured wood appliques are far less expensive to produce if the worker is getting paid $2 an hour, isn't 'hampered' by a mask to stop sawdust, and doesn't require mandatory hourly breaks to minimize varnish fume exposure....
So your US furniture company decides to fire all of it's 'production' workers except for a handful who will be retrained for 'assembly' work. Your US furniture company then outsources all of the chair frames and contoured wood appliques from subsuppliers in Vietnam -
http://www.vietnamgarden.com/php/view.php?contentid=102&parentid=&catid=103&menu=&list=false
- and has the parts shipped to the company's US factory where the handful of remaining 'assembly' workers screw the components together and shove the finished chair into a box for shipment.
~
That could happen, but it would be a different company that would happen to. The owner has a greater stake in his company than he has in selling out to someone else who would do just that.
The owner's advantage is that he knows his market, product, customer, suppliers, and staff, and the owner-staff is quite versatile and quick to respond to product trends, much quicker and accurate than design personnel half a world away. Under active consideration is to have the teakwood frame parts made to spec from Viet Nam but they may need to have an onsite quality inspector, as they cannot afford to have a shipment of those premium parts rejected due to bad machining. As they already purchase, rather than make, the extruded aluminum frame parts, that is a more viable option also under consideration. And that would not reduce the plant's manpower, or production capacity. Remember that worker income is heavily dependent on profitability and less on workhours and seniority.
threlayer
07-31-2009, 11:35 PM
What do you do if nobody is buying products at the cost you're selling them for?
Yes. That's always the critical issue, the issue always to avoid. It's what happened to Detroit, but management was asleep. These people are on the ball and are tracking and responding to what's happening.
If the consumer somehow completely disappears, the plant disappears of course. But if the consumer wants a very cheap product, let him buy Chinese; these guys will move away from that before they take a bad hit. They know their customers.
Melonie
08-01-2009, 12:21 AM
Relayer, your furniture company sounds very 'old school'. In other words, in the view of 21st century financial wisdom ...
- the owner has elected to sacrifice a ton of personal profit opportunity and in turn 'give' those potential profits to his American workers
- the owner has elected NOT to expand during 'good times', which further reduced personal profit opportunity
The conscious decision by the owner NOT to take on debt for expansion purposes has allowed your furniture company owner to avoid 'wall street' banking interests gaining a foothold to sway the decision making process toward maximizing short term profits. This is 'old school', and very rare.
Nonetheless, this company has already been driven out of the competition for high volume price sensitive products ... presumably because the company's labor costs, energy costs, environmental compliance costs, worker safety costs, taxes etc. have become so far out of line versus foreign competition that there is simply no way to produce such products at a competitive price and still maintain a positive margin. So the company has instead attempted to transition to (low volume high margin) 'luxury' products in an effort to maintain future profitability. And the company has already outsourced to the Chinese for fabrics and (soon) Vietnam for woodwork.
The conclusions to be drawn from this are A. that certain former US industrial segments are dying or dead ( fabrics and woodwork ), B. that this furniture company presently employs far fewer people than it used to / could have during past 'good times', and C. that expanded job opportunities for 'professionals' at this company are likely to only exist in a foreign country (i.e. quality inspector in Vietnam).
Tying back to the original topic of this thread, it would appear that even this 'old school' conservatively managed US furniture company has nothing to offer new college graduate 'professionals' in the way of US jobs. It would also appear that the speculatively managed former US fabric company wound up firing a number of college graduate 'professionals' when it went bankrupt, some of whom may very well be still looking for another 'professional' job in competition with new college graduates. Both of these facts support the original point of this thread, that new US college graduates now have very little opportunity to find a US job that is actually capable of offsetting the cost of their education.
eagle2
08-01-2009, 12:28 AM
That is my point. Businesses can only sell their products at a price people are willing to pay for them, regardless of the labor costs. It sounds like your company is able to charge a higher price because of the quality of its products, and people are willing to pay more for that quality. If your company was making cheap low quality products, you wouldn't be able to sell them at the same price just because of the cost of your labor.
threlayer
08-01-2009, 09:50 AM
...It sounds like your company is able to charge a higher price because of the quality of its products, and people are willing to pay more for that quality. If your company was making cheap low quality products, you wouldn't be able to sell them at the same price just because of the cost of your labor.
EXACTLY! You should see the gorgeous furniture they produce, especially in the highest line. You see it, and you want it. You might even save up for it.
They got rid of the cheap, crappy lines years ago when they foresaw their market.
The plastic stuff might last for centuries but your love of them lasts for only 2 days.
threlayer
08-01-2009, 10:12 AM
Relayer, your furniture company sounds very 'old school'. In other words, in the view of 21st century financial wisdom ...
- the owner has elected to sacrifice a ton of personal profit opportunity and in turn 'give' those potential profits to his American workers
- the owner has elected NOT to expand during 'good times', which further reduced personal profit opportunity
The conscious decision by the owner NOT to take on debt for expansion purposes has allowed your furniture company owner to avoid 'wall street' banking interests gaining a foothold to sway the decision making process toward maximizing short term profits. This is 'old school', and very rare.
"2st century financial wisdom" is mostly exploitation. These guys plan to stay in business rather than to maximize profits in one short blaze of glory and then try to find something else to do. They feel social responsibility to their customers, community, co-workers and country. If that is old school then we all have gotten very far off the track. The owner does not even own 50% of his company. He has decided that his average draw of about 200k/year puts him in a very comfortable mode of living. His concerns are about his company's operations. And because of this obvious involvement and ability his worker, pro and labor respect him. If something is going wrong, the workers feel that they can speak up, and even if they made a mistake, the crew pitches in to make the needed corrections, not blaming him/her. The only mistakes you can get in trouble for are this you try to hide. When the owner makes a mistake, it is publicized as a lesson for the profressional staff. As I say, they all try to make it a very good place to work
Nonetheless, this company has already been driven out of the competition for high volume price sensitive products ... presumably because the company's labor costs, energy costs, environmental compliance costs, worker safety costs, taxes etc. have become so far out of line versus foreign competition that there is simply no way to produce such products at a competitive price and still maintain a positive margin. So the company has instead attempted to transition to (low volume high margin) 'luxury' products in an effort to maintain future profitability. They got out of the cheap crap business several years ago, as they had no longer had anything unique to offer; see next post.
And the company has already outsourced to the Chinese for fabrics and (soon) Vietnam for woodwork. They tried to find closer fabric suppliers, but there were no suitable and interested suppliers left in the US. They had all capitulated becuause this sconservative businesses had not looked ahead to segment themselves from cheapo copycat imports. They are considering pre-cut, but unfinished teakwood from VietNam so that they can finish the pieces themselves. Their state of the art CNC positioner and cutter technology puts them well ahead of Vietnamese products.
The conclusions to be drawn from this are A. that certain former US industrial segments are dying or dead ( fabrics and woodwork ), B. that this furniture company presently employs far fewer people than it used to / could have during past 'good times', and C. that expanded job opportunities for 'professionals' at this company are likely to only exist in a foreign country (i.e. quality inspector in Vietnam). Fabrics, yes. Woodwork, no way. The precut heavy, teakwood idea has the benefit that shipping costs are lower, they dont have to run a QC operation over there , and product quality abnd longevity will be higher. They will use what resources make the most sense
Tying back to the original topic of this thread, it would appear that even this 'old school' conservatively managed US furniture company has nothing to offer new college graduate 'professionals' in the way of US jobs. The highly advanced computerized numeric control system was developed in conjunction with a joint project with the large university in the next city over. Some of the graduates and professors that worked on the project are further developing this same system, with several pending patents owned by the furniture company. The non-exclusive licenses to use this system are another profit center for the manufacturer. Later I will describe just how advanced and elegant this system is (this is drawing on some concepts I have personally, though the company described is fictonal.) As a tease, one can go from a few perspective photos, with artistic inputs, thru a mockup and onto a precise cutting setup for various types of wood in about an hour,. The next project add-on is a burnisher, essentially avoiding the sanding process because thge cutting is so precise.
It would also appear that the speculatively managed former US fabric company wound up firing a number of college graduate 'professionals' when it went bankrupt, some of whom may very well be still looking for another 'professional' job in competition with new college graduates. Both of these facts support the original point of this thread, that new US college graduates now have very little opportunity to find a US job that is actually capable of offsetting the cost of their education. Yes, they expanded speculatively, for one thing they had no college graduates, as it was a very old traditional family-owned operation that just didn't and couldn't keep up.
And this is precisely one of the things that has put so many US companies out of business; like plants "if you aren't busy growing, you are busy dying." US has so many advanced concepts just lying around gathering dust and rust. We got complacent, and that is the mark of a dying civilization.
Keep up to date, don't get greedy, and run an operation with integrity -- values that have not been exported to China. Recognize and use your advantages.
I admit that, in low cost consumer products, the Chinese have 'won the game' because we were complacent and (oddly) unaware. But in industrial products China has a long, long way to go. But apparently that's not their thing. College graduates have a place in keeping advanced technology available to American (and European) manufacturers (those that are left and willing to adapt as needed to changing conditions). As I've hinted in above post, there is a lot to say about Ameican education. Let's say that we have been very lax in our treatment of kids, not doing them any favors.
nina333
08-03-2009, 10:21 AM
Well, everything you guys are saying is true, the reason AMERICAN college grads can't compete with foreigners is because they are cheaper and employers purposely chose foreigners. By lying to the Americans, saying things like well if you don't want $10 an hour someone else will... then what is the whole point of taking out a huge loan for college if you wont be able to find a decent paying job?
Eric Stoner
08-03-2009, 10:48 AM
Well, everything you guys are saying is true, the reason AMERICAN college grads can't compete with foreigners is because they are cheaper and employers purposely chose foreigners. By lying to the Americans, saying things like well if you don't want $10 an hour someone else will... then what is the whole point of taking out a huge loan for college if you wont be able to find a decent paying job?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyPFpJg8wMY&feature=related
It's not only that, it's what the college kids majored in and WHERE they are looking for work. Some skill sets ARE in demand in some parts of the country.
nina333
08-03-2009, 11:16 AM
You mean certain skill sets, such as health care, nurses and such? accountants supposedly are needed. or jobs that can be done in person (surgeons, plumbers, dental hygienic, hairdressers, strippers...). not jobs that could be done from some other country. like certain computer jobs... which really stinks for many intelligent college students who lean towards those fields.
threlayer
08-03-2009, 12:03 PM
Music majors know that most of them will NEVER get a well-paying music job, other than teaching. Yet colleges promote for music majors...because their staffs and faclities need someone to teach. This has been going on for a long time and in other 'professions', even back when American companies were manufacturing our own electronics.
Eric Stoner
08-03-2009, 12:22 PM
You mean certain skill sets, such as health care, nurses and such? accountants supposedly are needed. or jobs that can be done in person (surgeons, plumbers, dental hygienic, hairdressers, strippers...). not jobs that could be done from some other country. like certain computer jobs... which really stinks for many intelligent college students who lean towards those fields.
Yes and also engineers of all kinds especially electrical, auto mechanics and various high tech jobs.
Melonie
08-03-2009, 01:22 PM
Yes and also engineers of all kinds especially electrical, auto mechanics and various high tech jobs
Yes and no ...
- doctors, nurses and other health professionals are already speculating that the implementation of national health care cost controls will reduce their future earnings potential ... which is already 'anemic' compared to the cost of obtaining the necessary degree outside of certain high-paying specialties. If the UK, Canada etc. give any indication, there will be a chronic shortage of doctors, nurses and other health professionals because the post-national health care earnings potential available will be low enough to prompt would-be American doctors, nurses etc. to seek 'greener pastures'. So yes there will be all sorts of employment opportunities, but a huge question as to whether or not the future earnings potential and future working conditions will be able to attract American job applicants ( versus H1B foreign doctors, nurses etc. whose governments pay for their college tuitions, and who can thus afford to work for far less pay )
- hybrids and electric cars come with 'pre-packaged' electronics for motor speed control units, battery charging etc. Once designed in the first place by engineers that are already employed, maintenance will basically boil down to authorized dealers service departments using a piece of proprietary test equipment to determine faulty 'sub-systems', and then replacing the entire 'sub-system' which in turn will be sent back to some central facility for repair ( in the US ?, probably in China if that's where the 'subsystems' are produced in the first place). An engineering degree is NOT required to do this, and this is arguably the only area where demand for auto repair staff will increase. On the flip side, electric cars mean no piston engines and no transmissions, meaning that fewer 'mechanics' will be needed.
Some skill sets ARE in demand in some parts of the country.
This is very true ... and also explains why states like New York are experiencing a 'brain drain' ... NY educates a comparatively large number of college graduates, but comparatively few of them choose to stay in NY to work ( thanks to high state and local tax rates, high cost of living etc.). Instead a significant number emigrate to areas of the US that are actually 'growing' economically i.e. Carolina, Texas etc. Some also emigrate out of the country altogether ... lured by very high paying jobs available in certain countries, combined with a $91k per year foreign earnings US income tax exclusion !
~
threlayer
08-03-2009, 08:59 PM
The cost of a medical practice includes malpractice insurance which is very high, and maintaining a staff to handle appointments, entering (dictated) medical records and transcripting, handling insurance and other companies and their forms, a few LPNs and maybe a RN or a PRN, and one physician, as well as office general liability insurance. Keeping a private practice office is not cheap, by any means, and often they will share office space and staffs. Their practice is subject to multiple levels of scrutiny. Their fees/procedure are subject to: standard fees and practices for the area, Medicare limits, Medicaid limits (if they choose that service), and various commercial insurance fee schedules if they want to be on their preferred provider list). Possibly more institutional pressures. And then patients who cannot express their complaints/symptoms, non-compliant patients, patients with not enough money for copays and no insurance (those not turned away), patients turned away by other practitioners as being generally difficult to work with, escalating costs of personnel wages, utilities, supplies, and office rental. Those who have hospital privileges or part-time work in clinics or D&T centers, have scheduled on-call duties on their "off-hours." And even more institutional pressures there. Plus they have "rounds." And then they have their practice's office hours. They have many non-patient duties such as dictating patient records, seeing pharm reps, updating themselves on recent medical research findings, and attending educational seminars and professional conferences. Plus often they have regular duties in their local medical societies. They have relatively little time to themselves and their families. Their spouses have most of the family and home duties.
Four years of college, 2-3 years of medical school, 2-3 years of residency, maybe 2 years of specialization and a few years to establish their practices. These are minimums, I believe. their full practice could start as late as their early forties, so that they may have to work until they are into their seventies.
This is what it takes, approximately, to have the life of an independent physician. In a university of full-time in a hospital, it is a bit different.
Just so you know how it is.
threlayer
08-03-2009, 09:02 PM
Yes and also engineers of all kinds especially electrical, auto mechanics and various high tech jobs.
And civil and environmental engineers.
threlayer
08-06-2009, 06:43 PM
...skill sets...This is very true ... and also explains why states like New York are experiencing a 'brain drain' ... NY educates a comparatively large number of college graduates, but comparatively few of them choose to stay in NY to work ( thanks to high state and local tax rates, high cost of living etc.). Instead a significant number emigrate to areas of the US that are actually 'growing' economically i.e. Carolina, Texas etc. Some also emigrate out of the country altogether ... lured by very high paying jobs available in certain countries, combined with a $91k per year foreign earnings US income tax exclusion !
They leave NY state because of the lack of jobs here, indirectly because of taxes. The jobs have been leaving because of corporate taxes and regulations Not being kind to businesses. This is well-known. The down-state Republicans make it difficult due to regulations, generally speaking, and the down-state Democrats make it difficult due to taxes.
Melonie
08-07-2009, 04:08 PM
interesting breakdown of latest US unemployment figures, showing where jobs are 'growing' versus where jobs are being 'lost' ...
(snip)"Industry Specific Job Losses
Job losses in specific industries were widespread. Manufacturing (-52,000), construction (-76,000), and the service sector (-119,000) all experienced heavy job losses. The auto industry had a month of growth (+28,200) as the industry stabilized. The future of the construction industry remains bleak as not only did construction workers lose jobs, but job losses mounted among architects and engineers (-13,500), a part of the professional service sector that has lost almost 10 percent of its total jobs in the last year.
As always, health care employment was a bright spot (+19,600). The government also added jobs at the federal level (+12,000) while contracting employment at the state level (-5000). Job creation at the local level was unchanged from the previous month."(snip)
from
threlayer
08-07-2009, 05:06 PM
interesting breakdown of latest US unemployment figures, showing where jobs are 'growing' versus where jobs are being 'lost' ...Makes sense to me.
...not only did construction workers lose jobs, but job losses mounted among architects and engineers (-13,500), a part of the professional service sector that has lost almost 10 percent of its total jobs in the last year.Even the most valued knowlegable employees face risk when things turn as bad as this. Nothing to build, nothing to design, nothing to pay.
threlayer
08-07-2009, 05:24 PM
Not everyone has to absolutely maximize their income to be happy in their life and work. But if you hate your work, maybe that is the only thing you care to bring home.
My little furniture company example only illustrates that conservatively-run and innovative business management can pay off. But if no one at all is buying, even the well-off, then even the best-run companies face big problems.
I will tell you this: the more education you have, the more interesting and satisfying you can make your work, not necessarily your income, but since when did life have to be only about getting rich?
Workers coming here from overseas, mostly Europe and Middle East, have told me that the US is very difficult for them at first because we are so competitive and we work so hard, and further that we only seem to value money, not the quality of our lives and sometimes not even our families.
eagle2
08-08-2009, 01:50 AM
Yes and no ...
- doctors, nurses and other health professionals are already speculating that the implementation of national health care cost controls will reduce their future earnings potential ... which is already 'anemic' compared to the cost of obtaining the necessary degree outside of certain high-paying specialties. If the UK, Canada etc. give any indication, there will be a chronic shortage of doctors, nurses and other health professionals because the post-national health care earnings potential available will be low enough to prompt would-be American doctors, nurses etc. to seek 'greener pastures'.
Where are doctors and nurses going to go to seek 'greener pastures'? Which other countries pay doctors and nurses anywhere near as much as they get paid here? With the demand for nurses here, some are making six figure incomes.
This is very true ... and also explains why states like New York are experiencing a 'brain drain' ... NY educates a comparatively large number of college graduates, but comparatively few of them choose to stay in NY to work ( thanks to high state and local tax rates, high cost of living etc.). Instead a significant number emigrate to areas of the US that are actually 'growing' economically i.e. Carolina, Texas etc. Some also emigrate out of the country altogether ... lured by very high paying jobs available in certain countries, combined with a $91k per year foreign earnings US income tax exclusion !
~
Again, you're making stuff up. New York City leads American cities in population growth.
http://www.ny1.com/content/top_stories/101598/new-york-leads-u-s--cities-in-population-growth/Default.aspx
Melonie
08-08-2009, 02:27 AM
Where are doctors and nurses going to go to seek 'greener pastures'? Which other countries pay doctors and nurses anywhere near as much as they get paid here?
You might want to google 'Medical Tourism' ! For a fact a number of 'younger' US doctors have figured out that it is NET income that matters more than gross income. This has led to the establishment of new 'world class' medical facilities in countries that do not have high income taxes and do not have patient friendly court systems.
Their business model is based on being able to offer much lower (total) costs for medical procedures versus US hospitals because A. there is no need for malpractice insurance, B. the labor cost of 'local' lower skill level hospital staff is a tiny fraction of what it is in America, etc. Many large US corporations that 'self-insure' their employees are now actively promoting the concept of 'offshore' medical treatment for very expensive medical procedures ... where the corporation's health insurance will gladly cover air fare and local accomodation for the employee's family so that an employee can receive (example) coronary bypass surgery in a foreign facility at a total cost that is $100,000 less expensive to the corporation than if the same surgery had taken place at a hospital in a major US city.
I have specifically posted about Bumrungrad Hospital in Thailand as one such location in the Body Business area - as this facility has a 'division' of specializes in plastic surgeries for 'foreigners'.
While an expatriate US doctor at such a facility may earn $100k a year less than in America, that doctor also does not have to deal with paying a $100k per year malpractice insurance premium, or deal with paying $40k per year ( or so ) to the IRS on the first $91k worth of 'foreign' income. And as a foreign traveller yourself, you will acknowledge that the cost of living like a 'king' in Bangkok is a tiny fraction of the cost of living an upper middle class lifestyle in most big American cities.
However, I will admit that American nurses do not have similar offshore opportunities. While facilities like Bumrungrad Hospital in Thailand need US doctors to provide 'international credibility', they can meet the hospital's staff needs with 'local' nurses who work for US$ 500 a month and 'local' x-ray techs, orderlies etc. who work for even less !
New York City leads American cities in population growth
You are technically correct. I should have been more careful in my word selection ... i.e. 'taxpayers' or 'legal residents' as opposed to simply population. However, I assumed that my reference to graduates of New York colleges would have narrowed this down by implication. But yes you are probably correct that for every college educated 'professional' NYer who leaves the state seeking higher net income opportunities ( net of taxes, insurance costs, costs of living etc.) there are probably two people who move into NY to take their place. Unfortunately, the two new ' immigrants' are likely to be net consumers of services from NY's social welfare system, and likely to NOT have to pay income taxes. This of course only increases the future tax burden on remaining NY 'professionals' and provides a stronger incentive for them to leave the state !
~
eagle2
08-08-2009, 02:39 PM
You might want to google 'Medical Tourism' ! For a fact a number of 'younger' US doctors have figured out that it is NET income that matters more than gross income. This has led to the establishment of new 'world class' medical facilities in countries that do not have high income taxes and do not have patient friendly court systems.
And most of these facilities are staffed by doctors from those countries, which is one of the reasons why the costs are so low.
Their business model is based on being able to offer much lower (total) costs for medical procedures versus US hospitals because A. there is no need for malpractice insurance, B. the labor cost of 'local' lower skill level hospital staff is a tiny fraction of what it is in America, etc. Many large US corporations that 'self-insure' their employees are now actively promoting the concept of 'offshore' medical treatment for very expensive medical procedures ... where the corporation's health insurance will gladly cover air fare and local accomodation for the employee's family so that an employee can receive (example) coronary bypass surgery in a foreign facility at a total cost that is $100,000 less expensive to the corporation than if the same surgery had taken place at a hospital in a major US city.
I have specifically posted about Bumrungrad Hospital in Thailand as one such location in the Body Business area - as this facility has a 'division' of specializes in plastic surgeries for 'foreigners'.
While an expatriate US doctor at such a facility may earn $100k a year less than in America, that doctor also does not have to deal with paying a $100k per year malpractice insurance premium, or deal with paying $40k per year ( or so ) to the IRS on the first $91k worth of 'foreign' income. And as a foreign traveller yourself, you will acknowledge that the cost of living like a 'king' in Bangkok is a tiny fraction of the cost of living an upper middle class lifestyle in most big American cities.
However, I will admit that American nurses do not have similar offshore opportunities. While facilities like Bumrungrad Hospital in Thailand need US doctors to provide 'international credibility', they can meet the hospital's staff needs with 'local' nurses who work for US$ 500 a month and 'local' x-ray techs, orderlies etc. who work for even less !
You are technically correct. I should have been more careful in my word selection ... i.e. 'taxpayers' or 'legal residents' as opposed to simply population. However, I assumed that my reference to graduates of New York colleges would have narrowed this down by implication. But yes you are probably correct that for every college educated 'professional' NYer who leaves the state seeking higher net income opportunities ( net of taxes, insurance costs, costs of living etc.) there are probably two people who move into NY to take their place. Unfortunately, the two new ' immigrants' are likely to be net consumers of services from NY's social welfare system, and likely to NOT have to pay income taxes. This of course only increases the future tax burden on remaining NY 'professionals' and provides a stronger incentive for them to leave the state !
~
I've been to Bumrungrad Hospital and I've never seen an American doctor there. A few of the doctors may have been educated in America, but they are Thai nationals. I'm not sure if foreign citizens are allowed to work in Thailand. Here's a page for searching for doctors at the hospital.
http://www.bumrungrad.com/overseas-medical-care/plan-your-visit/search-for-a-doctor.aspx
Let me know if you can find any Americans.
eagle2
08-08-2009, 02:43 PM
You are technically correct. I should have been more careful in my word selection ... i.e. 'taxpayers' or 'legal residents' as opposed to simply population. However, I assumed that my reference to graduates of New York colleges would have narrowed this down by implication. But yes you are probably correct that for every college educated 'professional' NYer who leaves the state seeking higher net income opportunities ( net of taxes, insurance costs, costs of living etc.) there are probably two people who move into NY to take their place. Unfortunately, the two new ' immigrants' are likely to be net consumers of services from NY's social welfare system, and likely to NOT have to pay income taxes. This of course only increases the future tax burden on remaining NY 'professionals' and provides a stronger incentive for them to leave the state !
~
Much of the population growth in southern states, especially Texas, is from immigrants from other countries, especially Mexico.
While the cost of living in New York is higher than many other states, the pay is often higher for similar work.
I would bet you were making more money working in New York City than you would have made working in a southern state.
Melonie
08-08-2009, 03:25 PM
Much of the population growth in southern states, especially Texas, is from immigrants from other countries, especially Mexico.
While the cost of living in New York is higher than many other states, the pay is often higher for similar work.
I would bet you were making more money working in New York City than you would have made working in a southern state
In truth, while I could earn more 'gross' dollars in Manhattan clubs, by the time I subtracted stage fees and tipouts and the club's 'cut' - plus food, hotel, gas and tolls, and NY state + NY city income taxes due on what was left, it wasn't worth travelling from upstate NY to Manhattan to work. Of course when I still lived in north Jersey thus could avoid travel and accomodation expenses while working in Manhattan clubs, the 'net' was quite a bit better (but then so was the economy in general).
On the other hand, if travel and accomodation expenses were involved in both cases, I made far more 'net' earnings by travelling to Dallas than to Manhattan. This was partly due to the lower food and accomodation expenses, partly due to the comparatively 'cheap' stage fees / club 'cut', partly due to zero state and local income taxes, and partly due to the fact that Texans like everything to be B I G !!!
threlayer
08-09-2009, 10:05 AM
The cost of living in NYC is directly attributable to the demand for living there. There is not enough space left in Manhattan for a decent supermarket. Generally people there charge as much as they can in a spiral effort caused by their own costs being so high.
Regarding malpractice insurance, very liberal "punishment" judgements hve raised that expense to ridculous amounts. The punishment in, in effect, meted out to those who pay medical insurance premiums. Tort reform is critically needed in this area -- along with medical insurance sysem reform, smuggling of immigrants taking benefits via Medicaid, antiquated administrative procedures, overly-profitable pharmaceutical companies, and medical and institutional mistakes not being competently overseen and preferential enrollment in medical education facilities. That is, many areas need to be reformed--changed, as it were.
There are many other antiquated institutions in this country that need scrutiny for efficacy and efficiency changes. Knowledgable personnel are needed for these improvements; they won't get that knowledge, and we won't get improvements, without higher educaion. They way thngs ARE is not the way things COULD BE and may well need to be.
eagle2
08-09-2009, 10:33 PM
In truth, while I could earn more 'gross' dollars in Manhattan clubs, by the time I subtracted stage fees and tipouts and the club's 'cut' - plus food, hotel, gas and tolls, and NY state + NY city income taxes due on what was left, it wasn't worth travelling from upstate NY to Manhattan to work. Of course when I still lived in north Jersey thus could avoid travel and accomodation expenses while working in Manhattan clubs, the 'net' was quite a bit better (but then so was the economy in general).
On the other hand, if travel and accomodation expenses were involved in both cases, I made far more 'net' earnings by travelling to Dallas than to Manhattan. This was partly due to the lower food and accomodation expenses, partly due to the comparatively 'cheap' stage fees / club 'cut', partly due to zero state and local income taxes, and partly due to the fact that Texans like everything to be B I G !!!
I don't know too much about the situation for featured entertainers, but for the regular dancers who dance at the same club, I would bet there are a lot more customers willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a dancer at a club in Manhattan than there are in a club in one of the southern states. Texas may be the one southern state with a fair number of wealthy people, as a result of the oil industry, but I doubt the numbers are nearly as high as New York.
On the subject of whether or not educated New Yorkers are leaving New York and moving to southern states, I don't find it very likely. As I mentioned before, for many jobs, the pay is much greater in New York than in many other southern states, even after taxes. There is also the culture issue. Many people live in New York City because they want to live there, even if it cost more, because of all New York City has to offer. The only southern state I know of, that many people from New York have relocated to, is Florida, and these are all retirees who go there for the weather.
Melonie
08-10-2009, 03:33 AM
(snip)"According to Census data analyzed by Warren Brown at Cornell and Robert Scardamalia at the Department of Economic Development, the population of the 52 Upstate counties decreased by 22 % among 20-34 year-olds and by 29% among 25-29 year-olds from 1990 to 2000.
Brown and Scardamalia report that between 1995 and 2000, the Upstate region had a net loss of 110,000 college graduates to other states. Findings show that the departures are accelerating."(snip)
(snip)"But relentless inflation in real estate and health care costs is endangering New York's long dominance in the creative sector, according to a new report, as artists and companies migrate to less expensive cities eager to lure them.
For example, 20 years ago, New York was the headquarters for half of the world's advertising agencies, but it is now home to fewer than a third, according to the report, written by the Center for an Urban Future, a left-leaning New York research group that analyzes urban policy issues.
While the city still is home to most of the American publishing industry, the number of jobs in that field fell 3 percent in the last decade in New York, while increasing in San Francisco, Boston and Denver. And from 2001 to 2004, the number of jobs in New York City's motion picture and sound recording industries declined by 36 percent.
"The danger for New York is, if we don't really start addressing the needs in the creative sector," said Robin Keegan, the lead researcher of the study, "we will not be able to do the origination" of many artistic products that the city has long been known for."(snip)
(snip)"Not that any of this will keep bankers and traders from jumping ship if they can. Wall Street has always had its share of mercenaries, hired guns for sale to the highest bidder. Few of them expect to spend their careers at one bank. In this business, 12 or 18 months can seem like an eternity. Loyalty? Please.
All of this is actually good news for financiers like Roger C. Altman, who served as a Treasury undersecretary in the Clinton Administration and now runs Evercore Partners, a small, independent investment bank. Capping pay at big banks will enable firms like his to cherry pick some talent, he says.
Even so, Mr. Altman says he thinks pay limits are a bad idea, even if his company stands to benefit. The move could have some perverse effects, like raising cash salaries to get around bonus restrictions, or encouraging banks to use creative legal techniques to move certain businesses offshore. Some banks might rush to give taxpayer money back to get out from under the government’s thumb, whether or not they, or their industry, are ready.
And Mr. Altman worries the brain drain is real, and that it will leave weak banks even weaker."(snip)
Whether or not you find a New York 'brain drain' unlikely, it IS a real concern !
~
dlabtot
08-10-2009, 09:31 AM
I was talking to a gal the other day who had proudly graduated this past spring with a degree in business. I mentioned Ingmar Bergman's "Wild Strawberries" ... she'd never heard of it, or Bergman.
I think that is sad, even if her degree does earn her more money someday.
Eric Stoner
08-10-2009, 09:43 AM
(snip)"According to Census data analyzed by Warren Brown at Cornell and Robert Scardamalia at the Department of Economic Development, the population of the 52 Upstate counties decreased by 22 % among 20-34 year-olds and by 29% among 25-29 year-olds from 1990 to 2000.
Brown and Scardamalia report that between 1995 and 2000, the Upstate region had a net loss of 110,000 college graduates to other states. Findings show that the departures are accelerating."(snip)
http://www.state.ny.us/governor//press/0522071.html
http://cornellsun.com/node/25677
(snip)"But relentless inflation in real estate and health care costs is endangering New York's long dominance in the creative sector, according to a new report, as artists and companies migrate to less expensive cities eager to lure them.
For example, 20 years ago, New York was the headquarters for half of the world's advertising agencies, but it is now home to fewer than a third, according to the report, written by the Center for an Urban Future, a left-leaning New York research group that analyzes urban policy issues.
While the city still is home to most of the American publishing industry, the number of jobs in that field fell 3 percent in the last decade in New York, while increasing in San Francisco, Boston and Denver. And from 2001 to 2004, the number of jobs in New York City's motion picture and sound recording industries declined by 36 percent.
"The danger for New York is, if we don't really start addressing the needs in the creative sector," said Robin Keegan, the lead researcher of the study, "we will not be able to do the origination" of many artistic products that the city has long been known for."(snip)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/arts/20iht-creative.html
(snip)"Not that any of this will keep bankers and traders from jumping ship if they can. Wall Street has always had its share of mercenaries, hired guns for sale to the highest bidder. Few of them expect to spend their careers at one bank. In this business, 12 or 18 months can seem like an eternity. Loyalty? Please.
All of this is actually good news for financiers like Roger C. Altman, who served as a Treasury undersecretary in the Clinton Administration and now runs Evercore Partners, a small, independent investment bank. Capping pay at big banks will enable firms like his to cherry pick some talent, he says.
Even so, Mr. Altman says he thinks pay limits are a bad idea, even if his company stands to benefit. The move could have some perverse effects, like raising cash salaries to get around bonus restrictions, or encouraging banks to use creative legal techniques to move certain businesses offshore. Some banks might rush to give taxpayer money back to get out from under the government’s thumb, whether or not they, or their industry, are ready.
And Mr. Altman worries the brain drain is real, and that it will leave weak banks even weaker."(snip)
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/23/news/companies/banks_talent/index.htm?postversion=2009062311
Whether or not you find a New York 'brain drain' unlikely, it IS a real concern !
~
New York and Michigan are leading the country in a brain drain of college educated young people.
I just saw a survey this morning that said to maintain a lifestyle that would cost you $100,000 a year in Manhattan only requires $51,000 in Chicago.
Eric Stoner
08-10-2009, 09:46 AM
I was talking to a gal the other day who had proudly graduated this past spring with a degree in business. I mentioned Ingmar Bergman's "Wild Strawberries" ... she'd never heard of it, or Bergman.
I think that is sad, even if her degree does earn her more money someday.
That she never heard of "Wild Strawberries" is perhaps understandable. That she never heard of Bergman is sad.
Btw, I was never a Bergman fan. I recognize his talent and importance but just never cared for his stuff. Too boring.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-10-2009, 09:28 PM
I just saw a survey this morning that said to maintain a lifestyle that would cost you $100,000 a year in Manhattan only requires $51,000 in Chicago.
Well there is always East Orange. ::)
eagle2
08-10-2009, 10:08 PM
(snip)"According to Census data analyzed by Warren Brown at Cornell and Robert Scardamalia at the Department of Economic Development, the population of the 52 Upstate counties decreased by 22 % among 20-34 year-olds and by 29% among 25-29 year-olds from 1990 to 2000.
Brown and Scardamalia report that between 1995 and 2000, the Upstate region had a net loss of 110,000 college graduates to other states. Findings show that the departures are accelerating."(snip)
http://www.state.ny.us/governor//press/0522071.html
http://cornellsun.com/node/25677
(snip)"But relentless inflation in real estate and health care costs is endangering New York's long dominance in the creative sector, according to a new report, as artists and companies migrate to less expensive cities eager to lure them.
For example, 20 years ago, New York was the headquarters for half of the world's advertising agencies, but it is now home to fewer than a third, according to the report, written by the Center for an Urban Future, a left-leaning New York research group that analyzes urban policy issues.
While the city still is home to most of the American publishing industry, the number of jobs in that field fell 3 percent in the last decade in New York, while increasing in San Francisco, Boston and Denver. And from 2001 to 2004, the number of jobs in New York City's motion picture and sound recording industries declined by 36 percent.
"The danger for New York is, if we don't really start addressing the needs in the creative sector," said Robin Keegan, the lead researcher of the study, "we will not be able to do the origination" of many artistic products that the city has long been known for."(snip)
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/20/arts/20iht-creative.html
(snip)"Not that any of this will keep bankers and traders from jumping ship if they can. Wall Street has always had its share of mercenaries, hired guns for sale to the highest bidder. Few of them expect to spend their careers at one bank. In this business, 12 or 18 months can seem like an eternity. Loyalty? Please.
All of this is actually good news for financiers like Roger C. Altman, who served as a Treasury undersecretary in the Clinton Administration and now runs Evercore Partners, a small, independent investment bank. Capping pay at big banks will enable firms like his to cherry pick some talent, he says.
Even so, Mr. Altman says he thinks pay limits are a bad idea, even if his company stands to benefit. The move could have some perverse effects, like raising cash salaries to get around bonus restrictions, or encouraging banks to use creative legal techniques to move certain businesses offshore. Some banks might rush to give taxpayer money back to get out from under the government’s thumb, whether or not they, or their industry, are ready.
And Mr. Altman worries the brain drain is real, and that it will leave weak banks even weaker."(snip)
http://money.cnn.com/2009/06/23/news/companies/banks_talent/index.htm?postversion=2009062311
Whether or not you find a New York 'brain drain' unlikely, it IS a real concern !
~
Melonie,
Your articles mostly refer to upstate New York, not New York City. The opposite is happening in New York City. Large numbers of college graduates are moving there. The most likely reason why so many people in the arts fields are leaving New York City is because it has become more expensive, most likely as a result of other higher paid professionals moving into the city. Over the past decade, the number of college graduates has increased dramatically. The last article you posted only refers to people leaving banks. It doesn't say anything about leaving New York City.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/nyregion/16degrees.html
(snip)
These days, it seems, you need a college degree just to live in or around New York City.
Almost 5 million people over the age of 25 in the New York metropolitan area — more than a third of the region’s population — had at least a bachelor’s degree in 2005, according to the latest data from the Census Bureau. In Manhattan, nearly three out of five residents were college graduates and one out of four had advanced degrees, forming one of the highest concentrations of highly educated people in any American city.
The degree-holders are rapidly displacing the dropouts, a trend that may help reduce the demand for social services and drive down crime rates. But the trend also worries some sociologists who say it is evidence that lower-income residents are being pushed out.
Between 2000 and 2005, the number of people in the metropolitan area over 25 who had not finished high school declined by 520,000, a drop of almost 20 percent. During the same period, the number of college graduates in the region rose by almost 700,000.
(snip)
eagle2
08-10-2009, 10:10 PM
That she never heard of "Wild Strawberries" is perhaps understandable. That she never heard of Bergman is sad.
Btw, I was never a Bergman fan. I recognize his talent and importance but just never cared for his stuff. Too boring.
New York and Michigan are leading the country in a brain drain of college educated young people.
I just saw a survey this morning that said to maintain a lifestyle that would cost you $100,000 a year in Manhattan only requires $51,000 in Chicago.
New York City isn't. (see my above post) The reason why it cost so much to live in New York City is because so many well paid professionals want to live there.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-10-2009, 10:27 PM
The degree-holders are rapidly displacing the dropouts, a trend that may help reduce the demand for social services and drive down crime rates. But the trend also worries some sociologists who say it is evidence that lower-income residents are being pushed out.
~~~
Well there is always East Orange. ::)~~~
Melonie
08-11-2009, 03:46 AM
Well there is always East Orange
Or Secaucus !
During the same period, the number of college graduates in the region rose by almost 700,000.
I only have two comments. The 2006 times article does not say whether or not these college graduates are actually employed in their field today . The 2006 times article also does not say whether or not these college graduates are earning a significant amount of money compared to their college loan payments and NYC cost of living. I spent a lot of time in NYC over the past 10 years, and it seemed to me that there were indeed a huge number of college educated waiters 'hoping' to eventually find work in their chosen field.
Again this circles back to the topic of this thread ... i.e. the times article offers no info in regard to whether obtaining their degrees was 'worth it' or not. Other articles show that today there are fewer NYC jobs in advertising, tv and film, Wall St. etc. So while the 2006 times article does tout a positive statistic about college educated people moving to NYC, it doesn't say a word about what happened after they arrived !
Also 2001-2006 was a major economic 'uptrend' ... which has clearly reversed in the past 2 years ... making me wonder how many of those Southern state college graduates who moved to NYC 3-4-5 years ago are still there !
~
Earl_the_Pearl
08-11-2009, 04:05 AM
Or Secaucus !
Secaucus is a Garden of Eden in the Garden State.
Eric Stoner
08-11-2009, 07:16 AM
New York City isn't. (see my above post) The reason why it cost so much to live in New York City is because so many well paid professionals want to live there.
You're right. Limited supply of housing and high demand has pushed housing prices in Manhattan beyond those in comparable areas. But thanks to all the Wall St. and other lay-offs there was a corresponding decline in housing prices and rents. They are still relatively high but have gone down.
threlayer
08-21-2009, 08:06 AM
This entire thread's thesis was to justify dumming down the US worker and to encourage just giving up our smart and hard work traditions. That's why I objected so strenuously to it.
Melonie
08-22-2009, 03:45 PM
This entire thread's thesis was to justify dumming down the US worker and to encourage just giving up our smart and hard work traditions
Arguably the true point of this thread was to point out that the present total cost of obtaining a US college degree is likely to have an increasingly unjustifiable 'payback on investment' because college costs continue to rise while US salaries for US college graduates continue to 'equalize' with those paid to non-US college graduates performing similar work.
threlayer
08-24-2009, 08:50 AM
"You think education is expensive? Try ignorance."
Melonie
08-24-2009, 03:25 PM
^^^ and especially so when ( in both cases ) a good part of the actual cost is being foisted onto a 'stranger' (taxpayer).
threlayer
08-24-2009, 09:59 PM
Maybe part of it, but ALL of ignorance is foisted onto others.
The public supports public edication up to 12th grade, tradeschools, amnd community colleges and the purpose of such is to produce a more productive workforce. (Well, with the direction some young people are going may not help this much.) No reason the public cannot support, in some measure, college education; after all, we get our most innovative people from higher education. And we surely need them.
Melonie
08-25-2009, 02:57 AM
^^^ please re-read previous posts on the issue of the emerging 'two tier' valuation of public college degrees versus private college degrees by employers ! Thanks to the public college policy of 'adjusting' grades and curricula to avoid causing embarrassingly high flunk-out rates ( with a disproportionate number of those flunking out being inner city educated minority students who were simply ill prepared for college by inner city high schools ), it is highly doubtful that an 'innovative' future graduate of a public college would be given an opportunity for a job where that 'innovation' could be fully utilized.
Put another way, gov't promotion of public college attendance has in fact REDUCED the future opportunities for 'innovative' public college students to apply their talents rather than increasing them.
eagle2
08-25-2009, 09:56 PM
Arguably the true point of this thread was to point out that the present total cost of obtaining a US college degree is likely to have an increasingly unjustifiable 'payback on investment' because college costs continue to rise while US salaries for US college graduates continue to 'equalize' with those paid to non-US college graduates performing similar work.
One of your previous posts contradicts this. You posted a link to the following page showing the average salaries of college graduates at various schools.
http://www.payscale.com/best-colleges/top-us-colleges-graduate-salary-statistics.asp
The average salary for graduates of many of these schools is far higher than the average salary for non-graduates.
There are many fields where you need a college degree. For those fields, you wouldn't be competing against non-graduates.
eagle2
08-25-2009, 10:07 PM
Or Secaucus !
I only have two comments. The 2006 times article does not say whether or not these college graduates are actually employed in their field today . The 2006 times article also does not say whether or not these college graduates are earning a significant amount of money compared to their college loan payments and NYC cost of living. I spent a lot of time in NYC over the past 10 years, and it seemed to me that there were indeed a huge number of college educated waiters 'hoping' to eventually find work in their chosen field.
Again this circles back to the topic of this thread ... i.e. the times article offers no info in regard to whether obtaining their degrees was 'worth it' or not. Other articles show that today there are fewer NYC jobs in advertising, tv and film, Wall St. etc. So while the 2006 times article does tout a positive statistic about college educated people moving to NYC, it doesn't say a word about what happened after they arrived !
Also 2001-2006 was a major economic 'uptrend' ... which has clearly reversed in the past 2 years ... making me wonder how many of those Southern state college graduates who moved to NYC 3-4-5 years ago are still there !
~
I'm sure there are plenty of college graduates able to find work in their fields in New York City. New York City has many large employers in many growing fields, including high tech, Medicine and biomedical research, International trade, and many others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_New_York_City#Medicine_and_biomedical_r esearch
I'm sure there are a lot more opportunities for college graduates in New York City, than there are in Alabama or Mississippi.
dlabtot
08-25-2009, 11:42 PM
Actually the taxpayer is not a stranger, it is me, you, and also the person getting the education.
Personally, I think people who resent paying taxes to establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, are sick, selfish, twisted people who should just move to another country already like they promised.
Melonie
08-26-2009, 03:53 AM
The average salary for graduates of many of these schools is far higher than the average salary for non-graduates.
Obviously true. However the question raised by this thread is whether or not the average salary for NEW graduates is enough of an increase over the average salary of non-graduates to A. make up for 4 years worth of 'foregone income' while the person was studying rather than working full time, and B. cover the ongoing additional costs of student loan payments after they do graduate and start working
There are many fields where you need a college degree. For those fields, you wouldn't be competing against non-graduates.
Correct, they will be competing against older graduates with real world experience who are now unemployed, against H1B imported graduates who are willing to work for lower salaries, and against graduates living and working in foreign countries to whom the work can be outsourced ! And in the case of new public college graduates, they will also be competing with new private college graduates who are arguably far better prepared to quickly become 'productive' employees for the new employer.
Personally, I think people who resent paying taxes to establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, are
You're referring to about 40% of the US population ... those whose earnings are low enough that they don't actually pay income taxes ... yet still enjoy all of these benefits because someone else ( i.e. their higher earning neighbor who must actually pay income taxes) is paying for their freight ?
move to another country already
there's a huge difference between Cuba and Costa Rica !
Eric Stoner
08-26-2009, 06:53 AM
Actually the taxpayer is not a stranger, it is me, you, and also the person getting the education.
Personally, I think people who resent paying taxes to establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, are sick, selfish, twisted people who should just move to another country already like they promised.
I don't mind paying taxes for those things. They are CONSTITUTIONAL purposes.
What I don't like is seeing my taxes wasted on "earmarks", boondoggles, junkets and taking my money and just giving it to someone else. What I don't like is wasting tax money on things like bailouts and dumb programs like "cash for clunkers".
Wouldn't you prefer a tax system that taxes EVERYONE fairly and does not favor inherited wealth ?
Btw, it 's not conservatives who continually threaten to pack up their marbles and move to another country. It's Libs like Alec Baldwin and Barbra Streisand who always threaten to do that.
threlayer
08-26-2009, 10:44 AM
...Thanks to the public college policy of 'adjusting' grades and curricula to avoid causing embarrassingly high flunk-out rates ( with a disproportionate number of those flunking out being inner city educated minority students who were simply ill prepared for college by inner city high schools ), it is highly doubtful that an 'innovative' future graduate of a public college would be given an opportunity for a job where that 'innovation' could be fully utilized....
I agree that such education should be regarded as an opportunity and a privilege, not another two years of delaying getting into a workforce and another couple of years of partying before partying on their own. Also public and private colleges known as "party schools" are largely on the wrong track. I also agree that many inner city school-educated people are not well enough educated, but I have to blame that on their society that often does not respect the duties of parenthood. But I also see non-inner city kids as unprepared partying doofuses intent on just sliding thru as long as possible. Of course they could always go into stripping, as that largely seems to be where they come from. Except many of those SW members, of course.
I'm saying that colleges and high schools may be at fault, as well as parenting. I just don't see where governments have much say in the matter. There is the concept of self-responsibility.