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princessjas
07-26-2009, 01:50 PM
I think you read insults where there aren't any. :-*

If your house is over 3000 sq feet then you'd need help to keep it clean. (I read that in a magazine so it must be true.)

The Trophy Wives in your neighborhood are freeloaders. :D

It really does come across as an insult. You may not mean it that way, but it is like a subtle reminder that we weren't born wealthy. I really don't think I'm the only one that takes it that way. (I'm not trying to pick on you, just explain.)

As for the other..
:rotfl:
I can't believe they publish that crap. It's a lot of work with 2 little ones, but I manage to keep my house pretty much spotless. Some people are so damn lazy it is astounding (look at me calling people lazy when I've been playing on the interwebz all day }:D). Of course we really only use like half the house on a regular basis. That really cuts down on the work. I mainly just do a quick dusting and polish the floors once a month or so in the areas we don't use often. If I gave up my internet time, I'd probably be able to detail those rooms, but alas, I'm too selfish to give up my vice.

AudreyLeigh
07-26-2009, 02:29 PM
I have always been in the school of thought that half and half is fair. I think your spouse or partner should be your equal, and with that comes equal financial responsibility.

Why cant other things compensate for the one that is bringing in the money? Money is NOT everything. I cook, clean, take care of his laundry, drycleaning, ironing, clean toilets, mow the lawn, vacuum, mop, sweep, watch the kid, take his car to the shop, get the oil changes, do the dishes, book his dental/medical appointments, shit - book ANY appointment, plan activities, plan EVERYTHING, etc, etc, etc. I do everything BUT go to "work" altho I end up "working" all damn day long.

At least my husband gets Saturday and Sunday off! I get NO DAYS OFF!

I'd RATHER just go to work and not have to do anything else but that's not gonna happen because then I will go to work and STILL do all of the above.

Point in case - my husband just left to go golfing, Im here with the kid and a friend and have to do all the laundry, clean the house - clean HIS mess because I was gone all week and I guess putting dishes into the washer is too hard for him.. it's a good 3-4 hours of shit here to do... while he enjoys his golfing. Oh, also have to make a meal plan for the next 2 weeks, a shopping list and go grocery shopping with the kid that likes to throw stuff into the cart... oh, and I have a list of toiletries he needs. Yes, I do nothing but sit on my ass and spend his hard earned money.

Back to the OP - I think that is complete bullshit. Maybe a prenup stating that what he has AT THAT TIME she gets nothing but she should be entitled to some of what he earns during the marriage at a minimum.

Elvia
07-26-2009, 02:42 PM
^^^ Exactly.

It's sad that we've gotten to a point where traditional "women's work" is worth nothing in most people's eyes. You could spend your life making a home, raising the children, caring for all your husbands domestic needs...and if at any point he decides he's done with you and would rather have a 19 year old secretary instead, you could end up broke and homeless with nothing to show for it. And end up being labeled a "freeloader" for it as well.

I'm glad to hear she didn't sign.

Paris
07-26-2009, 03:32 PM
The monetary value of the services that the typical middle class housewife provides to the family is in the range of $110-300K a year (depending on region and regional wages).

That would be the amount the typical family of 4 would have to pay services to conduct the business of household management and child rearing tasks. This does not include the companionship offered to the husband, as those services are not easily priced due to variances in the husband's personal companionship needs.

In light of these facts, the pre-nup that was offered this lady was total and utter bullshit. The man obviously didn't love her, or he would have at least shown enough respect and appreciation for what he was asking of her in their legally binding partnership.

My own experience with divorce was telling insomuch as my ex behaved like a child. To be fair, I left with only the possessions I had when we married, or items that were obviously mine like clothes and other personal objects. Although he was unemployed for the majority of the time we were married, the jackass insisted that I owed him $10k for the items I took. That's how he defined 50/50. We were separated for 3 years because the idiot didn't understand simple math-- therefore he refused to sign the divorce papers.

I'm fully convinced that chivalry is dead.

Earl_the_Pearl
07-26-2009, 03:41 PM
Back to the OP - I think that is complete bullshit. Maybe a prenup stating that what he has AT THAT TIME she gets nothing but she should be entitled to some of what he earns during the marriage at a minimum.
That is how it is supposed to work without being said; only assets acquired during marriage are required to be divided equally.

In reality it would make lawyers rich figuring this out. In my case I put a LARGE down payment on a house; money I had before marriage. The house was aquired during the marrage and I had to buy it back from her even though she contributed very little to the purchase.

Earl_the_Pearl
07-26-2009, 03:44 PM
I'm fully convinced that chivalry is dead.
Amen to that; women have come a long way. Enjoy your freedom.

BIGJosh
07-27-2009, 01:49 AM
Say you were going to marry a girl and she had $10,000,000 in the bank. You had two kids with her and all you did everyday was look after her and the two kids cook/clean/iron etc. So you decided to marry her and she said If I die or cheat on you I want to make sure you don't get one penny of my money. Would you belive she loved you and think she had a fair point? Maybe you would be willing to do that but Id have more respect for myself than that and I would actually care about my own and my kids well being.
I dont think he should sign away his money and I deffinatly think its fair to have a prenup that says she cant have anything if she cheats or something along those lines but I think saying he wont give her anything irregardless of the situation shows he really doesnt care about her he cares about his money.

I agree with you 100% if he has kids with her, then shits on her, then, yes, she deserves some cash from him, for him being a douche. But, I dont believe that he should just sign away all of his cash to someone. If he says "Hey, if such and such happens to me, or we become divorced, and we have kids together, youll get $3mill) then, yeah, I got no problems with that. But, if she refuses to sign it, and hopes that if things dont work out(and they dont have any kids), then she shouldnt expect to take him to the cleaners, and she should get NOTHING, regardless of how long they were married.

BIGJosh
07-27-2009, 02:01 AM
Back to the OP - I think that is complete bullshit. Maybe a prenup stating that what he has AT THAT TIME she gets nothing but she should be entitled to some of what he earns during the marriage at a minimum.

Good post/point. This is how it should be all the time w/any prenup. You shouldnt have to give anyone(man or woman) anything you've earned pre marriage, why? they didnt do a think to help you earn it.

But, if they together make a shitload of cash, then, that part should be split between them. More often that not, it's not that way though.

bexxx
07-27-2009, 08:04 AM
I agree with you 100% if he has kids with her, then shits on her, then, yes, she deserves some cash from him, for him being a douche. But, I dont believe that he should just sign away all of his cash to someone. If he says "Hey, if such and such happens to me, or we become divorced, and we have kids together, youll get $3mill) then, yeah, I got no problems with that. But, if she refuses to sign it, and hopes that if things dont work out(and they dont have any kids), then she shouldnt expect to take him to the cleaners, and she should get NOTHING, regardless of how long they were married.


Deffinatly. But they do have two kids and he doesnt want to give her anything irregardless of if it was him who cheated, Im glad she didnt sign! I think most women on here arent saying she should get his money for nothing. Its funny how opinionated people are on this matter as this topic turned into a debate lol

Axiom
07-27-2009, 11:35 AM
I have little respect for women who do quit to stay at home
Wow. Its not an easy decision, nor is it an easy job. You think its better for a child to be in daycare from the time he/she is 6 weeks old and basically have someone other than the parents raise the child? What about families who don't have a choice - it doesn't make financial sense for both parents to work because of the costs of daycare? Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes before you say you have little respect for what they do.


When women give up careers not only do they make it rough for other women (because then employers use this as an excuse not to hire women)
I have never experienced an employer turn me down for a job (or anyone I know) because another woman gave up her career. And in fact there are laws that protect women's rights. It is illegal to turn a woman down for a job based on the fact that she is a woman. I thought you knew that.


they make it rough for themselves if they eventually do re enter the workforce.
Why do you care if a woman makes it harder for herself by CHOOSING to stay home and take care of her children? You sound like you believe in equal opportunity for women, but that we shouldn't have a choice in the matter. Women are just enslaved by men and forced to stay at home and do the cooking, cleaning, and childcare? Instead, we should be forced by you to go out in the workforce and never stay home a day in our lives? Who cares if our families suffer for it, its for the greater good of women everywhere ::)


And for those who think women are natural nurturers I have two names: Andrea Yates, and Susan Smith.

There are exceptions to every rule.

shy1
07-27-2009, 12:39 PM
My mom put me in daycare to work. She also worked full time and did all the cooking and cleaning. I respect her tremendously for it.

How would you know if you had been turned down for a job because you are a woman? They don't exactly tell you that during the interview. Men argued for years that women were not good employees because they would either get pregnant and quit or would need extra time off to take care of kids.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 01:27 PM
Wow. Its not an easy decision, nor is it an easy job. You think its better for a child to be in daycare from the time he/she is 6 weeks old and basically have someone other than the parents raise the child? What about families who don't have a choice - it doesn't make financial sense for both parents to work because of the costs of daycare? Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes before you say you have little respect for what they do.

I know many stay at home moms. Most spend all day shopping, getting their nails done, etc. I have little respect because they could be doing more but choose to be lazy. Yes, I think daycare is better because the kids spend all day meeting new friends.


I have never experienced an employer turn me down for a job (or anyone I know) because another woman gave up her career. And in fact there are laws that protect women's rights. It is illegal to turn a woman down for a job based on the fact that she is a woman. I thought you knew that.

Sure, it's illegal, but still happens. My last employer wasn't thrilled with hiring childbearing women because they were afraid they'd quit. As a result they didn't promote many women each year.



Why do you care if a woman makes it harder for herself by CHOOSING to stay home and take care of her children? You sound like you believe in equal opportunity for women, but that we shouldn't have a choice in the matter. Women are just enslaved by men and forced to stay at home and do the cooking, cleaning, and childcare? Instead, we should be forced by you to go out in the workforce and never stay home a day in our lives? Who cares if our families suffer for it, its for the greater good of women everywhere ::)

I don't care if a woman or a man wants to stay at home, I just don't think they should receive tax breaks for their choices. Many of us are tired of people saying it's the hardest job when it's not always the hardest. My last job was just as hard because I had to leave my house at 6:30am, didn't get home until 6pm and still had to cook and clean. I certainly couldn't get my nails done everyday like the ones I knew. I have a friend who is a housewife. She spends all day ordering takeout for KFC. She surfs the web all day. Oh, and she's 5'1 and almost 400 pounds and her husband has to pay more in healthcare because of her. She had to get a job because her husband threatened to divorce her. Why exactly is it women who get the pressure to stay at home but not the men? It's because many of these men want to control.


There are exceptions to every rule.

Of course there is, but the majority of these people don't work all that hard. Like a childhood friend who has a nanny and a maid. To be fair I do know one housewife who works hard.

princessjas
07-27-2009, 01:58 PM
I know many stay at home moms. Most spend all day shopping, getting their nails done, etc. I have little respect because they could be doing more but choose to be lazy. Yes, I think daycare is better because the kids spend all day meeting new friends.



Sure, it's illegal, but still happens. My last employer wasn't thrilled with hiring childbearing women because they were afraid they'd quit. As a result they didn't promote many women each year.




I don't care if a woman or a man wants to stay at home, I just don't think they should receive tax breaks for their choices. Many of us are tired of people saying it's the hardest job when it's not always the hardest. My last job was just as hard because I had to leave my house at 6:30am, didn't get home until 6pm and still had to cook and clean. I certainly couldn't get my nails done everyday like the ones I knew. I have a friend who is a housewife. She spends all day ordering takeout for KFC. She surfs the web all day. Oh, and she's 5'1 and almost 400 pounds and her husband has to pay more in healthcare because of her. She had to get a job because her husband threatened to divorce her. Why exactly is it women who get the pressure to stay at home but not the men? It's because many of these men want to control.



Of course there is, but the majority of these people don't work all that hard. Like a childhood friend who has a nanny and a maid. To be fair I do know one housewife who works hard.

I think your statement is grossly unfair, and can I say damn, you have some really shitty friends and acquantances. Hell, all my neighbors are stay-at-home trophy wifes, but at least they stay in shape to please their husbands.

When I used to have a maid I admit, I did a fair amount of shopping and hitting the nail salon, but the kiddos went with me shopping, nail salon was my only break from them once every 1-2 weeks, I even got up at 5am to hit the gym before they got up. I still cleaned up day to day, did all the laundry, 3-hours of planned learning activities a day with my son, organized and scheduled our entire lives and cooked gourmet meals. Most all the women in my sons playgroup and in my old mommy group lead similar lives. The trophy wives married to men 50 years their senior are the only ones that I have met that fit the lazy description that you laid out.


Since I didn't work outside the home, should I have spent absolutely all of my time inside the house? I worked far more than the 8-9 hours a day my husband put in. I worked, far, far harder than I ever did at my most recent job which I was out the door at 7am and not back home until 7pm or later then had to cook and clean.

Yep, that's right, being a stay at home mom was HARDER than that, even when I didn't run a business as well. Staying home does have it's bonuses, I get to surf the internet sporadically during the day, between other tasks, and my kids don't have to be in childcare, which btw, I can't even begin to comment on your suggestion that very young children are better off in daycare. It really shows that you don't yet have kids, or if you do, have never taken care of them full time.

MarvelGirl
07-27-2009, 03:23 PM
Kelly, I'm sorry but you don't really want equality. You are just demanding that women make the same choices as you and then condemning them when they don't.

That's just as bad as the people who demand that all women should sit on their asses all day and live off of their husbands.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 03:24 PM
I think your statement is grossly unfair, and can I say damn, you have some really shitty friends and acquantances. Hell, all my neighbors are stay-at-home trophy wifes, but at least they stay in shape to please their husbands.

When I used to have a maid I admit, I did a fair amount of shopping and hitting the nail salon, but the kiddos went with me shopping, nail salon was my only break from them once every 1-2 weeks, I even got up at 5am to hit the gym before they got up. I still cleaned up day to day, did all the laundry, 3-hours of planned learning activities a day with my son, organized and scheduled our entire lives and cooked gourmet meals. Most all the women in my sons playgroup and in my old mommy group lead similar lives. The trophy wives married to men 50 years their senior are the only ones that I have met that fit the lazy description that you laid out.


Since I didn't work outside the home, should I have spent absolutely all of my time inside the house? I worked far more than the 8-9 hours a day my husband put in. I worked, far, far harder than I ever did at my most recent job which I was out the door at 7am and not back home until 7pm or later then had to cook and clean.

Yep, that's right, being a stay at home mom was HARDER than that, even when I didn't run a business as well. Staying home does have it's bonuses, I get to surf the internet sporadically during the day, between other tasks, and my kids don't have to be in childcare, which btw, I can't even begin to comment on your suggestion that very young children are better off in daycare. It really shows that you don't yet have kids, or if you do, have never taken care of them full time.

If someone has time to go get their nails done, workout, etc, then they aren't working hard. Sounds cruel, but that's what I've seen. I don't respect these women and that's not going to change. Do I think all housewives are like this? No, but too many ARE. Many of us wouldn't resent them if the tax system was fair. In many cases they get tax breaks staying at home while those of us who work have to pay more. Not to mention we often hear people saying it's the hardest job when in many cases it isn't. Sure, it can be hard, but so can working in a factory or working at a restaurant or store.

As for kids, no I don't have them, but I wouldn't stay home with them. Why would I? I went to college and have work experience. I enjoy having a paid job. Why should it be the women who stays home and not the men? I worked hard for everything I earned, no way am I giving it up for a man.


Kelly, I'm sorry but you don't really want equality. You are just demanding that women make the same choices as you and then condemning them when they don't.

That's just as bad as the people who demand that all women should sit on their asses all day and live off of their husbands.

I don't care that women stay at home, I just don't want to pay for them. This can include tax breaks,welfare, whatever. My only problem with stay at home is when people say it's the hardest job and put housewives on pedestals. I've seen too many who are lazy and I resent when people think that.

MarvelGirl
07-27-2009, 03:26 PM
As for kids, no I don't have them, but I wouldn't stay home with them. Why would I? I went to college and have work experience. I enjoy having a paid job. Why should it be the women who stays home and not the men? I worked hard for everything I earned, no way am I giving it up for a man.

So, it's ok for a man to stay home? WTF lady? So because my husband and I have taken turns being the primary caretaker of our son, he's cool, but I'm a piece of shit?

You're a really sorry excuse for a feminist.

By the way, please don't have any children. Since you can't imagine why a parent might possibly want to spend time raising their own children, you'd be a lousy mother. We don't need any more people raised by parents who didn't want them and don't feel like they should have to be put upon by raising the kids that they chose to create.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 03:30 PM
So, it's ok for a man to stay home? WTF lady? So because my husband and I have taken turns being the primary caretaker of our son, he's cool, but I'm a piece of shit?

You're a really sorry excuse for a feminist.

No, just saying that part of the reason this comes up is because women are the ones expected to stay at home. Part of the reason is because people think women are the natural caretakers. Not always true. I don't care if anyone stays at home, but if a man stays at home and does nothing all day (just like the women I mentioned) he's just as lazy as a woman.


By the way, please don't have any children. Since you can't imagine why a parent might possibly want to spend time raising their own children, you'd be a lousy mother. We don't need any more people raised by parents who didn't want them and don't feel like they should have to be put upon by raising the kids that they chose to create.

And I suppose the women who spend all day working out are better mothers than those who work? Working has nothing to do with who's a better parent.

MarvelGirl
07-27-2009, 03:36 PM
Stop judging other people just because you're friends with a bunch of shitty mothers. If these people are so awful and lazy, then why are you friends with them? That says a lot about you.

BLicious!
07-27-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm 100% serious. I'm not taking care of anyone. I have no interest in being a provider and think men who accept this role are fools. Women are equal now, so get out there and be equal. Anyone who doesn't support themselves is a freeloader IMO.

Good luck finding a sucker to support you as more and more men are adopting my philosophy. 8)

Disclaimer: The statement above is total BULLSHIT, not all men think this way only this jack off. Ladies beware!

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 04:03 PM
Stop judging other people just because you're friends with a bunch of shitty mothers. If these people are so awful and lazy, then why are you friends with them? That says a lot about you.

They aren't all friends. Some are, but some are relatives and some I just know.

BLicious!
07-27-2009, 04:07 PM
As for the original OP thank goodness she didnt sign that crap.

KellyDancer you suck. Thats all.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 04:16 PM
As for the original OP thank goodness she didnt sign that crap.

KellyDancer you suck. Thats all.

Why, because I refuse to think all housewives are hard working? Nope, can't say that and I won't. Nor will I think being a parent makes someone better than others. Nor will I say parents should get tax breaks, etc. Maybe by that standard I should say all housewives suck. However, that's not true so I won't. I could say you suck because you think men should support women. I refuse to resort to that.

BLicious!
07-27-2009, 04:19 PM
Your one of those bitter single women with no children who probably cant conceive anyways. Have a nice life.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 04:29 PM
Your one of those bitter single women with no children who probably cant conceive anyways. Have a nice life.

Nothing better to do than attack me? Maybe you need to get a life. Bitter? not hardly. And it's "you're" not "your".

bexxx
07-27-2009, 04:52 PM
Nothing better to do than attack me? Maybe you need to get a life. Bitter? not hardly. And it's "you're" not "your".


Her comment was kind of immature perhaps but your judmental-ness (not a real word I know) is offending people obviously. Its not like youre in the right its just your opinion. If youre a stripper then you know what its like for close minded people to judge you and alot of your comments and views are so close minded and judgemental.

princessjas
07-27-2009, 04:59 PM
No, just saying that part of the reason this comes up is because women are the ones expected to stay at home. Part of the reason is because people think women are the natural caretakers. Not always true. I don't care if anyone stays at home, but if a man stays at home and does nothing all day (just like the women I mentioned) he's just as lazy as a woman.



And I suppose the women who spend all day working out are better mothers than those who work? Working has nothing to do with who's a better parent.

Who the hell said anything about spending all day working out? I worked out 1.5 hours a day when I worked before my kiddos were born and do the same now. My days are much longer and more stressful now, so if I didn't work out I can't imagine how I would deal with it.

I agree with MarvelGirl, you need a better quality of friends and acquaintances. You are judging the rest of us based on the bad choices and awful behavoir of those you are acquainted with and it is very rude.

I personally respect nearly all people, all except those that are judgmental and closed-minded.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 05:00 PM
Her comment was kind of immature perhaps but your judmental-ness (not a real word I know) is offending people obviously. Its not like youre in the right its just your opinion. If youre a stripper then you know what its like for close minded people to judge you and alot of your comments and views are so close minded and judgemental.

It is my opinion from what I've seen. Maybe if I knew more that were like the one I mentioned who works hard, my opinion would be different. Many people think like I do. Maybe not here, but in general. Some people just don't want to say it, but it's true. I'd never make a comment about it in public.


Who the hell said anything about spending all day working out? I worked out 1.5 hours a day when I worked before my kiddos were born and do the same now. My days are much longer and more stressful now, so if I didn't work out I can't imagine how I would deal with it.

I agree with MarvelGirl, you need a better quality of friends and acquaintances. You are judging the rest of us based on the bad choices and awful behavoir of those you are acquainted with and it is very rude.

I personally respect nearly all people, all except those that are judgmental and closed-minded.

I wasn't talking about you, I was referring to someone I know who works out for several hours a day. Her nanny watches the kid while she works out. These aren't all friends. Like I said I don't care if someone works or not, I'm just tired of those who think housewives are the hardest working people.

bexxx
07-27-2009, 05:44 PM
It is my opinion from what I've seen. Maybe if I knew more that were like the one I mentioned who works hard, my opinion would be different. Many people think like I do. Maybe not here, but in general. Some people just don't want to say it, but it's true. I'd never make a comment about it in public.


I wasn't talking about you, I was referring to someone I know who works out for several hours a day. Her nanny watches the kid while she works out. These aren't all friends. Like I said I don't care if someone works or not, I'm just tired of those who think housewives are the hardest working people.

Well you really should try not to judge everyone from one or two people you know..which is what it seemed like you were doing even if you hadnt meant it to. Who thinks housewives are the hardest working people?
I think anyone with common sense and who live in the real world know that it is both hard to work a real job and it is hard to run a household. Its not a competition and I respect any woman who works hard and looks after herself and her family irregardless of the way she does it.

shy1
07-27-2009, 05:51 PM
Your one of those bitter single women with no children who probably cant conceive anyways. Have a nice life.

Personally, I put a lot of effort (and condoms) into being a bitter childless person.

bexxx
07-27-2009, 05:56 PM
Personally, I put a lot of effort (and condoms) into being a bitter childless person.

lol @ that. But I missed that first comment thats such a vicious thing to say *abit shocked*

princessjas
07-27-2009, 05:59 PM
Personally, I put a lot of effort (and condoms) into being a bitter childless person.

Before we get into the blame game. Just want to point out that a lot of us got pregnant on purpose! Yanno, after getting married (or living together in a committed relationship) and making the decision to have kids with our partner. At one time I was also childless by choice & always had a backup BC to ensure I stayed that way. So in no way do I think that the majority of childless people are bitter. I think they made a different choice which I completely understand and respect.

shy1
07-27-2009, 06:10 PM
I agree. Just trying to subtly support Kellydancer, because I think she is catching a little undeserved anger because she stated a few things less than diplomatically. I think people who are financially responsible when they have kids, and devote the time neccessary to raising them well are admirable. I think career women are admirable. However, there are women who have kids to get the child support, or the welfare. There are also women who stay at home with the kids and don't do a damned thing with them. I think that with overpopulation being such a huge problem, it is immoral of the government to continue with tax and welfare schemes that support this. I have no idea of an alternative that would provide help only to the deserving, however.

The one thing that I emphatically disagree with is that a man should be expected to support a woman, just because of their genders. Women need to be able to support themselves, if only because life is full of such unexpected problems.

Kellydancer
07-27-2009, 07:11 PM
I agree. Just trying to subtly support Kellydancer, because I think she is catching a little undeserved anger because she stated a few things less than diplomatically. I think people who are financially responsible when they have kids, and devote the time neccessary to raising them well are admirable. I think career women are admirable. However, there are women who have kids to get the child support, or the welfare. There are also women who stay at home with the kids and don't do a damned thing with them. I think that with overpopulation being such a huge problem, it is immoral of the government to continue with tax and welfare schemes that support this. I have no idea of an alternative that would provide help only to the deserving, however.

The one thing that I emphatically disagree with is that a man should be expected to support a woman, just because of their genders. Women need to be able to support themselves, if only because life is full of such unexpected problems.

Thank you. That's what I was trying to say.

princessjas
07-27-2009, 07:25 PM
I agree. Just trying to subtly support Kellydancer, because I think she is catching a little undeserved anger because she stated a few things less than diplomatically. I think people who are financially responsible when they have kids, and devote the time neccessary to raising them well are admirable. I think career women are admirable. However, there are women who have kids to get the child support, or the welfare. There are also women who stay at home with the kids and don't do a damned thing with them. I think that with overpopulation being such a huge problem, it is immoral of the government to continue with tax and welfare schemes that support this. I have no idea of an alternative that would provide help only to the deserving, however.

The one thing that I emphatically disagree with is that a man should be expected to support a woman, just because of their genders. Women need to be able to support themselves, if only because life is full of such unexpected problems.

I completely agree with all of this! As far as I know the only tax breaks are for having children, not related to if you stay home with the child. I am not low-income though, so there may be something available there that I am not aware of.

One of my biggest pet peeves is people who ride the welfare system. IMO, it is there for those of us who have the children we can afford to support, then through no fault of our own, come into unfortunate cirmcumstances that cause us to be unable to provide for our family and basic human needs that these programs were intended to assist.

Thankfully I have never had to accept gov't support, and hopefully I will never be in that position. I have very little respect for those who decide to have children, knowing good and well they cannot support them.

It also pisses me off when I see women who stay at home, but completely ignore their kids (though I've seen 2-3 of these out of 20ish acquantances with kids). You can stay at home and be a lazy ass, but that is just like going to work and being a lazy ass (though you are more likely to get fired at work).

If you want to do a good job and care about your kids and your home it is a LOT of work. Damn near constant. Even when I'm on the puter during the day, I'm multitasking...making lunch, getting a snack, wiping down the kitchen counters, making tea, cleaning a sinkful of toys, or watching as they do a supervised learning/play activity, sitting outside watching them as they play or pelting them with water balloons. :D

LuvlyDancer
07-27-2009, 09:06 PM
Without a so-called prenup, she was not going to be able to 'walk away with half' as some people are assuming.

No contract and she would have been considered a partner in the growth of his net worth after the wedding... he always keeps what he comes into the marriage with. For example, if he was wirth $10 million on the day of marriage, and she had $0, and after 15 years he had increased his wealth by 10% or $1 million, she would have been entitled to $500,000 and he would leave with $10.5 million. So she was hardly 'in it to win it' as some suggest.... he didn't want her to have anything, not one cent.

katalinda
07-28-2009, 04:31 AM
Your one of those bitter single women with no children who probably cant conceive anyways. Have a nice life.

I don't agree with KellyDancer, but this is so out of line. People who choose not to have children (or can't) deserve exactly the same respect as those who do. End of discussion.

And as for making light of the whole infertility thing...how dare you. You have no idea what it's like to know you can never have a baby, so fuck off.

princessjas
07-28-2009, 07:22 AM
^^I really don't think her comment was leveled at others that choose not to or can't have children. Yes, it may have been out of line, but KellyDancers was too. She did tell us that she doesn't respect us and we are lazy, then compared us to a 400lb unfit mother. That kind of thing, should get her pointed and the comment deleted imo, because it is hurtful and will almost always trigger anger in those being attacked. B was probably just hurt and offended by her comments (as I was) and in response lashed out, which is a completely normal human reaction. (Not that I'm saying the comment was acceptable, just that I understand where it came from and don't really think it was intended to be malicious towards anyone else. I nearly did the same thing and went on the attack, it's a knee-jerk reaction.)

Kellydancer
07-28-2009, 10:25 AM
^^I really don't think her comment was leveled at others that choose not to or can't have children. Yes, it may have been out of line, but KellyDancers was too. She did tell us that she doesn't respect us and we are lazy, then compared us to a 400lb unfit mother. That kind of thing, should get her pointed and the comment deleted imo, because it is hurtful and will almost always trigger anger in those being attacked. B was probably just hurt and offended by her comments (as I was) and in response lashed out, which is a completely normal human reaction. (Not that I'm saying the comment was acceptable, just that I understand where it came from and don't really think it was intended to be malicious towards anyone else. I nearly did the same thing and went on the attack, it's a knee-jerk reaction.)

Why exactly should my comment get deleted but not others? It's my opinion. It may have been insulting, but it's the way I feel. Exactly how is what I said hurtful, when others made comments about those who put their kids in daycare? Or how about those who said I'd make a lousy parent? Those are just as hurtful, yet that's ok? By the way, I got several pm's about my comments from people who said they agreed but didn't want to incur the wrath of several people.

If someone stays at home, but manages to go workout, has a maid, etc, then no they don't deserve respect. Those mothers (and fathers) who work a full day then come home to take care of their kids work much harder. Maybe those offended are offended because they are exactly the ones I talk about.

princessjas
07-28-2009, 10:32 AM
^^ Because YOU started it by being rude and insulting! It may be your opinion, but did your mommy never teach you "Don't say anything if you don't have something nice to say???"


ETA - I never said the other comments shouldn't be deleted. I actually think they should. I only stated that I didn't think people should jump on B so severely for her comment when she was provoked.

Kellydancer
07-28-2009, 10:44 AM
Maybe you are exactly the type I'm talking about. Maybe you spend all day surfing the web, working out and have a maid to do the cleaning. If so, then yes I can see how you'd be offended. I don't care, I stand by what I said, and no, I don't respect people who are lazy.
Btw, I wasn't the first person to call names. Another poster called these women "freeloaders" and I happen to agree. It's perfectly legal to agree and I am expressing my opinion.

My insults and bad behavior? Why, because I expressed a view that's different? No, that doesn't make it insulting or bad behavior. Unlike others, I never attacked anyone personally, unless one fits that's sterotype. If so, then the truth hurts. I never said all housewives are lazy. I said there ARE lazy housewives, and there are.

princessjas
07-28-2009, 11:18 AM
Maybe you are exactly the type I'm talking about. Maybe you spend all day surfing the web, working out and have a maid to do the cleaning. If so, then yes I can see how you'd be offended. I don't care, I stand by what I said, and no, I don't respect people who are lazy.
Btw, I wasn't the first person to call names. Another poster called these women "freeloaders" and I happen to agree. It's perfectly legal to agree and I am expressing my opinion.

My insults and bad behavior? Why, because I expressed a view that's different? No, that doesn't make it insulting or bad behavior. Unlike others, I never attacked anyone personally, unless one fits that's sterotype. If so, then the truth hurts. I never said all housewives are lazy. I said there ARE lazy housewives, and there are.

Actually, at first you said you had no respect for housewives, and then said we are lazy. That statement appeared to include ALL housewives. You amended it a bit later to state that only the vast majority were lazy. If you would have admitted that only SOME are like that and said you only lacked respect for those, without further slinging insults, no one would have an issue with your point of view. The other poster did say that he only disrespected the lazy mooches.

Also, are you having fun being such a complete bitch to me? Reread your posts if you don't think you are being insulting. Anyone with a small amount of manners could see that you are being vastly insulting to ALL SAHM's, and there are several of us on this board. Just look at your last few posts, they are obviously attacking me. Do you not think that speculating that I am a horrible mom and lazy is attacking me??

I have already stated, that while my day is less rigid than some jobs and I can re-arrange my schedule as I please, that I run a business AND do all the housework, childcare, etc. I only have lots of interwebz time recently because unfortunately my business tanks every July. In a few weeks I'm sure I'll be back to writing 30-50 resumes a month, while juggling everything else.

As for not respecting me, I don't really care. Your rude and judgmental behavior combined with you unwillingness to own it has ensured I have none for you.

Kellydancer
07-28-2009, 11:39 AM
I didn't even mention you. Do you think the world revolves around you? Unless of course you workout all day, get your nails done, and have a maid, then you are just like those who I mention. I don't have to respect anyone. These women don't respect career women (as noted by a few comments here) so exactly why should I have to respect them? Respect is a two way street.

I'm done with this. I stand by what I said, and no I never "personally" attacked you. Apparently you seem to have some sort of delusional idea that my comments were directed at you. I couldn't care less about you, but if you're one of those women who I describe, then congrats you are lazy. If you aren't, then why defend those who are lazy? As for me being a complete bitch, you started it with me.

princessjas
07-28-2009, 11:55 AM
I didn't even mention you. Do you think the world revolves around you? Unless of course you workout all day, get your nails done, and have a maid, then you are just like those who I mention. I don't have to respect anyone. These women don't respect career women (as noted by a few comments here) so exactly why should I have to respect them? Respect is a two way street.

I'm done with this. I stand by what I said, and no I never "personally" attacked you. Apparently you seem to have some sort of delusional idea that my comments were directed at you. I couldn't care less about you, but if you're one of those women who I describe, then congrats you are lazy. If you aren't, then why defend those who are lazy? As for me being a complete bitch, you started it with me.

You didn't mention me in your first post, but after I pointed out that I thought it was an unfair judgment to say that ALL housewives were lazy and undeserving of respect you responded to my posts, therefore addressing me. You speculated in your last post, and again in this one that I was one of those women, after I have repeatedly pointed out that I am not. Now you are being rude and calling me delusional, because I took a statement that included all women who quit work to raise their children personally. Why wouldn't I take that statement personally when I am in the group being attacked?

I think you are the delusional one, if you think that the majority of housewives don't respect career women. Most don't respect judgmental career women who show them no respect, because yes, as you stated, respect is a two-way street. Why can't you just be nice and maybe admit that not all SAHM's are the lazy monsters you seem to want to paint us as? Staying home is a gut-wrenchingly difficult decision to make. There is no right or wrong choice. Both have benefits and drawbacks and I respect everyone, regardless of which option they feel is best for their family. I had a nice career that I enjoyed very much, and at times now, I fantasize about going back, because my days would be much easier (regardless of what others think, this is true, at least in my case). I just can't put my childrens welfare in the hands of others. Not with all the children who die every year while at daycare. Logically, I realize the statistics are low, but emotion often rules when it comes to your childrens safety.

commanderadama
07-28-2009, 05:40 PM
This whole thread jack reminds me of a book I read awhile back about narcissistic freeloader women called Mommy Wars by Leslie Morgan Steiner.

The book is about the conflict being displayed between Kellydancer and Princessjas.

Put the Diatribes aside and this is a very intriguing conversation to say the least. }:D

Since I totally agree with Kellydancer's POV I'm missing why Princessjas is offended by her opinions of most stay at home mothers. I think this is because deep down all stay at home moms actually know they are freeloaders and hate to be called on it. Thus the endless explanations of all the hard work they perform. Funny, a construction worker doesn't have to offer such explanations because everyone knows that's back breaking work. LOL

These freeloading relationships are a modern phenomenon. There is no doubt that being a housewife and a mother used to be a very difficult job. Back before dishwashers, laundry machines and indoor plumbing, it was hard work keeping a family going. But in our modern world, Please! Being a stay at home mom is not hard work. (Tedious and mind numbingly boring for sure but not hard.) Not to mention the silly worrying that preoccupies most of these mommies. No one is after your kid(s), except maybe your ex spouse who hates you if you're divorced and they only want to take them to hurt you. ;D

This whole concept that being a mother makes you special or important is nonsensical. Women need to realize that billions of women have given birth. Most of whom didn't consider it a medical condition. Women continue to give birth in horrible conditions throughout the world and I have to think that these self important western women must be loathed by their third world sisters.

I believe in a woman's right to choose to have an abortion but I think a man should be able to choose whether he wants any part of it. For example, I like sex but I hate babies so I'm always in favor of abortion so why should I be saddled with child support payments for a kid I didn't want? I say if you want it, you pay for it. I'm just happy that I'm so discriminatory about women, only being attracted to about 1% of the female population in any given area gives me a distinct advantage over the poor fools that like any woman with a pulse, they have very hard lives.

princessjas
07-28-2009, 06:00 PM
This whole thread jack reminds me of a book I read awhile back about narcissistic freeloader women called Mommy Wars by Leslie Morgan Steiner.

The book is about the conflict being displayed between Kellydancer and Princessjas.

Put the Diatribes aside and this is a very intriguing conversation to say the least. }:D

Since I totally agree with Kellydancer's POV I'm missing why Princessjas is offended by her opinions of most stay at home mothers. I think this is because deep down all stay at home moms actually know they are freeloaders and hate to be called on it. Thus the endless explanations of all the hard work they perform. Funny, a construction worker doesn't have to offer such explanations because everyone knows that's back breaking work. LOL

These freeloading relationships are a modern phenomenon. There is no doubt that being a housewife and a mother used to be a very difficult job. Back before dishwashers, laundry machines and indoor plumbing, it was hard work keeping a family going. But in our modern world, Please! Being a stay at home mom is not hard work. (Tedious and mind numbingly boring for sure but not hard.) Not to mention the silly worrying that preoccupies most of these mommies. No one is after your kid(s), except maybe your ex spouse who hates you if you're divorced and they only want to take them to hurt you. ;D

This whole concept that being a mother makes you special or important is nonsensical. Women need to realize that billions of women have given birth. Most of whom didn't consider it a medical condition. Women continue to give birth in horrible conditions throughout the world and I have to think that these self important western women must be loathed by their third world sisters.

I believe in a woman's right to choose to have an abortion but I think a man should be able to choose whether he wants any part of it. For example, I like sex but I hate babies so I'm always in favor of abortion so why should I be saddled with child support payments for a kid I didn't want? I say if you want it, you pay for it. I'm just happy that I'm so discriminatory about women, only being attracted to about 1% of the female population in any given area gives me a distinct advantage over the poor fools that like any woman with a pulse, they have very hard lives.

Fuck you!! Seriously, I've already stated that I respect both decisions and btw I bring in right under 6 figs while staying home AND doing everything around here, which unless you are a lazy slob is a lot of work. I'd like to see you polishing the floors in a 4000 sq ft house, doing the windows, changing the sheets in all 5 rooms, scrubbing 3 bathrooms and keeping them clean with kids, doing 10+ loads of laundry weekly and also cooking and cleaning up after 3 meals a day. Do all that THEN you can say it isn't work.

Perry
07-28-2009, 06:18 PM
I'm amazed at the stereotyping and ignorance toward SAHMs comming from strippers. I mean, when you're done snorting coke and giving head in the VIP wouldn't like to come home to a clean house and happy kids? ::)

We should know better than anyone not to judge an entire group of women based off of a few rotten apples. As for cd, well, I don't expect any better of him. I'm just shocked the moderators still allow him to stay on this site and piss off the few dancers left, while contributing nothing remotely usefull, intelligent or entertaining.

commanderadama
07-28-2009, 07:42 PM
I'm amazed at the stereotyping and ignorance toward SAHMs comming from strippers. I mean, when you're done snorting coke and giving head in the VIP wouldn't like to come home to a clean house and happy kids? ::)

Stereotypes get there meanings for a reason...


We should know better than anyone not to judge an entire group of women based off of a few rotten apples. As for cd, well, I don't expect any better of him. I'm just shocked the moderators still allow him to stay on this site and piss off the few dancers left, while contributing nothing remotely usefull, intelligent or entertaining.

You've never seen a George Carlin HBO special have you? Leslie will be mad that you don't think her book is intelligent, useful or entertaining... I'll be sure to tell her. LOL

jack0177057
07-28-2009, 10:18 PM
I'm in total support of SAHMs -- I think the reason so many kids are so fucked up today, is because there's no one at home to supervise them. I respect working moms and don't mean to cast blame on them, but the fact is that when mom and dad are both hi-powered professionals, the kids are left unsupervised, and generally, get into shitloads of trouble.

A few years ago, a very affluent and "model" suburb of Dallas had a pandemic of teenage heroin overdoses... These unsupervised well-to-do teenagers were partying nonstop and doing drugs until they literally dropped dead...

mediocrity
07-29-2009, 02:03 AM
Since I totally agree with Kellydancer's POV I'm missing why Princessjas is offended by her opinions of most stay at home mothers. I think this is because deep down all stay at home moms actually know they are freeloaders and hate to be called on it. Thus the endless explanations of all the hard work they perform. Funny, a construction worker doesn't have to offer such explanations because everyone knows that's back breaking work. LOL.

I think it depends on the situation. One kid. Ok, I agree with you. 5 kids? That's a shit ton of work. Kid with special needs? Even more so. So, definitely for me it's situational.


These freeloading relationships are a modern phenomenon. There is no doubt that being a housewife and a mother used to be a very difficult job. Back before dishwashers, laundry machines and indoor plumbing, it was hard work keeping a family going. But in our modern world, Please! Being a stay at home mom is not hard work. (Tedious and mind numbingly boring for sure but not hard.) Not to mention the silly worrying that preoccupies most of these mommies. No one is after your kid(s), except maybe your ex spouse who hates you if you're divorced and they only want to take them to hurt you. ;D
I do agree a lot of people are paranoid ( I never see kids outside anymore!! And the trick or treat at shopping malls now ?! WTF?!) I also agree it used to be more work back in the day but see my first statement for my current position.


This whole concept that being a mother makes you special or important is nonsensical. Women need to realize that billions of women have given birth. Most of whom didn't consider it a medical condition. Women continue to give birth in horrible conditions throughout the world and I have to think that these self important western women must be loathed by their third world sisters.
I totally agree. It's like people following Kate Gosselin. Who the hell cares? She's just like any other mom. I get told by fellow women all the time that I will change my mind later, that my biological clock will kick in, or I will meet the right man. Then again these are also the women who tell me that they love their period because it makes tem feel womanly. Fuck that noise. I have tits and vagina... I'd say that alone makes me womanly.
Having kids is not my purpose. My purpose is to kick ass at whatever I want to do and be my own person. I think shows on TLC like A Baby Story and Deliver Me etc (I mean really, there are SO many birth shows on TV I think if I see another I will puke) glamourise the childbirth and pregnancy. I'm like come on people, break it down: You're going to gain weight, not be able to smoke or drink for nine months at least, push a bowling ball through a rubber band or have major surgery, then have to jump in and have someone absolutely dependent on you immediately after. No thanks, not for me.


I believe in a woman's right to choose to have an abortion but I think a man should be able to choose whether he wants any part of it. For example, I like sex but I hate babies so I'm always in favor of abortion so why should I be saddled with child support payments for a kid I didn't want? I say if you want it, you pay for it.
Ironically, I'm almost over the fence on this one. I think that men and women should be equally responsible for the act they are committing. Having sex? I hate when girls say he should have kept it in his pants, because well, maybe you should have too. I have a friend of mine who gave his ex girlfriend money for an abortion, the option they had decided on, and she kept the money and the kid, and is not trying to get him for child support. I despise trickery and do think the option to sign over your parental rights should be there for EITHER party, UNLESS it was a planned pregnancy, or part of a marriage etc.

Oh and

Did you know tough, that in some places fathers can sue for the "custody" or their unborn child? Interesting stuff.

I'm just happy that I'm so discriminatory about women, only being attracted to about 1% of the female population in any given area gives me a distinct advantage over the poor fools that like any woman with a pulse, they have very hard lives.
We get it dude. Let's move on.


PS. I AM NOT SAYING MY OPINION IS THE ONLY ONE OR BASHING THE DECISION TO HAVE KIDS. IT IS JUST NOT FOR ME.

mediocrity
07-29-2009, 02:05 AM
I'm in total support of SAHMs -- I think the reason so many kids are so fucked up today, is because there's no one at home to supervise them. I respect working moms and don't mean to cast blame on them, but the fact is that when mom and dad are both hi-powered professionals, the kids are left unsupervised, and generally, get into shitloads of trouble.

A few years ago, a very affluent and "model" suburb of Dallas had a pandemic of teenage heroin overdoses... These unsupervised well-to-do teenagers were partying nonstop and doing drugs until they literally dropped dead...

My parents switched off, mum would be home for a few years, then dad when we were older. I have to say I vastly preferred my father: better cook, never screamed or raised his voice to us, yet we still listened to him. He's a bad ass.

I think parents should switch off, for sure, if someone is going to stay home.