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Earl_the_Pearl
07-26-2009, 09:41 PM
That is not prostitution then. That is a loving caring relationship and I am all for that. And, if she is willing to dress up like a stripper then that would be a match made in heaven.
Thank you, I agree as do the several women I help with expenses.

Cyril
07-26-2009, 09:47 PM
If you go back through these forums, you'll see long ago there was a great deal of debate over whether or not LDs had crossed a line, as some dancer's lines were limited to no LDs.

Also I have no idea where you got it into your head that naked women have been part of nightly entertainment since the beginning of time.

That doesn't even make any sense unless you have absolutely no exposure to the rest of the world including parts where not only is nudity not allowed, but even showing a woman's face is offensive.

For that matter, when I grew up, even Southern California, a liberal place, the areas zoned for stripping were extremely limited. In addition today many parts of this country that allow stripping require pasties and bottoms because god forbid humans would see a full nipple.

Also seriously, the popular phrase is that prostitution is the oldest profession in history, or have you never hear that phrase either? There is no popular phrase "Naked stage dancing, the oldest profession in history". It's not like prostitution is some brand new thing and up until now dancing on stage has been it.

I am feeling sleepy now. So, I have to hit the bed but I would like you to dig deep into time and read some older novels; you will see that aristocrats loved congregating at theaters where nude women danced. It was considered art. If you feel like touching this topic again then may be we can start a new thread to dive deep into this topic.

For now I wish you a good night.

P.S. Naked women in my favorite topic. ;)

yoda57us
07-26-2009, 10:04 PM
I am not the kind of person who likes to impose his will on others but I simply saw that you made lots of assumption in your posts and I pointed them out to you.

Come again? I made zero assumptions Cyril.


I know enough to know that women do not like having sex with men they are not attracted to. Some women do it purely for money meaning her circumstances did not force her to do this.

OK, so you just admitted that every woman who has sex for money does not do it out of desperation or because she is being forced to. Thank you, that is my only point here.

yoda57us
07-26-2009, 10:09 PM
That is not prostitution then. That is a loving caring relationship and I am all for that. And, if she is willing to dress up like a stripper then that would be a match made in heaven.


Thank you, I agree as do the several women I help with expenses.

Oh Brother! You two deserve each other....:rotfl:

babybambi08
07-26-2009, 10:34 PM
I do not believe a woman must resort to escorting in order to support her kids. Is dancing not yielding enough money due to the bad economy? There are government programs to assist single mothers. Also the father of the children should be able to give you child support.


Im sorry I didnt know someone was forcing me to do what I do. No the economy sucks right now! Government programs AHAHAHAH that fucking funny! :rotfl: a year before I left my ex I signed up for the wait list for public housing.. that was almost 4 years ago. I just sent them an Email about 2 weeks ago just to see.. I still haven heard anything other than Im still on the list.. I almost signed up for welfare once, when I lost a job..they were going to give me 200 a month. you cant recieve unemployement if you get that, its one or the other.. unemp. was like 80 dollars cause I was a waitress.
And Im not talking about "just getting by" I want to be able to provide more for my kids, and yes myself. The Father, are you kidding me?? HAHAH :rotfl: He see them time to time but he hasnt ever paid Child support. My Father never did either, I know A LOT of single mothers, Id say about 50 and I think only 3 get child support and they arent even the whole amount half the time.
I think about 85% of dads are dead beats. thats just how most are. yes there are some good ones. PLUS he is only ordered 200 dollars for 2 kids. I have been to the attorney General a million times. I have went up there and been like well I dont have any money for diapers what am I supposed to do, I have done that alot (althought I did) ONLY once the ladie called him and he was like yes Ill get by the office later.. haha yea right.. every time I go up there I have a different case worker. but I only go about 3-4 times a month, I guess Im not working hard enough. They always say we are going to give him another month... its been almost 4 years I have receive 2- 200 payments, when they were still in diapers.

CRYing who says that a dancer or escort is crying inside?? HAve you checked this chick out???
http://www.saraprescott.com/

SHE looks HAPPY as FUCK! I would be to, going to fine places, getting paid to go on dates, meeting interesting new people. making that kinda cash you could do what you please.

You like everything you do??
PLEASE I didnt really wanna have sex with my bf tonight but I did it to please him.. I just dont have a high sex drive, I didnt cry about it.
I didnt wanna take out the trash or do the dishes today.

like i said before Its a personal choice, and if you can seperate the emotion then you will be fine.If you didnt like it the first few times you will stop.

I think you really just dont like the fact that some guys do pay for this.. YOU probably have thought about it, but your ego or pride thinks you are above paying for pusy.
Every man should pay, even if you are dating the person. Some guys do chorse around the house, take you out to eat, help with your bills, ect. THEY are still paying they just dont know it.

toddq138
07-26-2009, 11:36 PM
One county in NV has legal prostitution but it is very strict/regulated and will set the customer back about $2-3k.
You can get the same stuff in Mexico for $200-300 but you'll have to worry about STDs, etc. and if you are not used to latino woman then you might not like it.

shameless
07-27-2009, 03:16 AM
Escorting is prostiution, if that's what you girls want to do in your spare time OUTSIDE of the club, then so be it. Otherwise, this site is SUPPOSED to be about exotic dancing. This is not prostitution, this is danciing/ entertaining/ having fun. The lines have become very blurred. Can't we put all of these threads into one place so it's not the only topic here?

Totally agree, I have the uttermost respect for women that prostitute themselves and remain sane and drug-free (I have two friends like this), but as far as merging stripping and dancing, the only outcome is and I have experienced this in the UK, and that is that you get escorts working in clubs to have face to face interactions with potential customers and that will always TAKE MONEY OUT OF THE CLUB! Hence our industry spirals down in terms of earnings and soon most customers will have expectations that most dancers, going into stripping, shouldn't have to deal with.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 04:50 AM
... you will see that aristocrats loved congregating at theaters where nude women danced. It was considered art... ;)

Sex is a key factor in human nature (and in animals as well), so there is no revelation to note that people in the past had an interest, or that the female form is sexually appealing to men. Like the reason we have a population of nearly 7 billion is because people have been having sex, exponentially multiplying, long before 2009.

babybambi08 actually touches on an important point indirectly with "Every man should pay, even if you are dating the person. Some guys do chorse around the house, take you out to eat, help with your bills, ect. THEY are still paying they just dont know it." Sex is a valuable commodity. People trade it the same way they will take pay or things in exchange for their other assets (e.g., use of their intellect, physical strength, endurance, talents). As men of course we might want them to give it for free, out of love, but for those who have sex appeal in spades, it is a valuable asset that can be used to improve their own life, either personally or via trade for goods or money.

Societies are groups of people who change their views over time. Where they draw the line about the commodification of sex is changing, including reverting over periods of time as civilizations grow and fail.

People instinctively compete, trying to get the best deal they can for themselves, in favor of setting the limits to whatever degree provides them with the best outcome. It has been a old discussion on these forums as well that extras girls would probably be quite comfy with changing the laws to allow for more sex in the clubs, but obviously this would be a negative outcome for those who have lower limits. But if you go back, you'll see the same was played out over the contact lap dance. Not every dancer wanted it, and many would have preferred that other dancers had not fed into upping the limits so that the customer expectations had remained at the air dance level or stage dance even. Problem is, societies are ever changing and a new generation is constantly born who tend to raise the bar, who start with different preconceived notions about what the norms are, and are willing to push the norms to a new level if doing so will help them get ahead. Such is people. Group dynamics is amazing but personally difficult to cope with sometimes as we see the next generations pushing boundaries we individually refused.

bem401
07-27-2009, 05:36 AM
^^

. RI has a loophole in the law that allows room for solicitation in a private venue (your house, a hotel room). But that's just solicitation. Remember, once money exchanges hands, its illegal there, too.

Not true. The only thing that is illegal is streetcorner solicitation. Everything else is not illegal, including escorting, strip club extras, and AMP's and any acts that take place therein.

As far as exploitation is concerned, it runs both ways, both in the world of escorting and the strip club world, and to a certain extent, in the world at large. People enter into these arrangements because they each have what the other wants and they take advantage of it.

Dancers and escorts take advantage of the fact that there are men willing to pay them to pose as their friend or lover for a sum of money.

The men take advantage of the fact that the women are willing to do this for money.

Hopefully, all involved are there because its where they want to be and if it works for them, more power to them.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 06:44 AM
As far as exploitation is concerned, it runs both ways, both in the world of escorting and the strip club world, and to a certain extent, in the world at large. People enter into these arrangements because they each have what the other wants and they take advantage of it.


Hey, I trade my intellectual knowledge and skills for pay. Am I being exploited? Obviously I would say no, I choose this even though there are days I feel my employer takes more then I would ideally like to give, and sometimes my one boss is verbally abusive but gets away with more then I'd tolerate from a stranger. I'm trading some asset I have for something else I want. Of course I'd rather not work and live stress free, requirement free, but that is not the way it works.

I also traded my income, my willingness to be emotionally supportive, and more for similar affections (and sex) from my S.O. I guess it takes the mystique and romance out of relationships to view them in this way (though I personally have no problems stepping in and out of the experience, and a 3rd person intellectual pov), but yea, I agree.

As long as people are not being forced, if they are old enough to reasonably be treated as adults, then we have to assume that on some level they are making choices of what they want. There are obviously some complex human dynamics as to why we think of sex as taboo to commoditize, and both men and women have interests in keeping sex rare and valuable for their own reasons.

Personally I don''t and never have used an escort, but I still believe in freedom of speech and am in favor of promoting freedom of human choices, as long as what others are choosing doesn't dramatically negatively effect me. Thus if yoda and an escort agree to something, this has no negative effect on me and am fine with it (sorry to use you as an example but it personalized why it is not something I concern myself over).

It is unfortunate though that in our society we still have men who treat women like half-adults. They assume if a man makes a choice he chooses it, even if it is a choice they don't agree with. But if a woman makes a choice he doesn't agree with, he assumes she is incapable of choosing for herself and so blames it on exploitation. Thus he see might see the john, the club owner, the pimp as a male and assume he is fully cognizant of his choices in the matter, but see the woman as essentially a mental child, not really responsible for her choice. This double standard leads to much confusion about what our real human nature is.

minniesoporno
07-27-2009, 08:06 AM
Canada is but we have some grey areas.

Melonie
07-27-2009, 09:24 AM
^^^ there are many MANY gray areas in the US as well.

For example, the San Francisco DA is on record that prostitution within private venues will NOT be investigated or prosecuted.

Most major cities have 'designated zones' where prostitution will NOT be investigated or prosecuted.

Unfortunately, just because a DA or police chief choose not to enforce prostitution laws as a matter of current policy, this does NOT mean that the previous policy couldn't change in a heartbeat if circumstances warranted it.


And besides the gray areas of enforcement policy, there are also gray areas as to what constitutes an act of prostitution. For example, in Texas two girls were dancing onstage at the same time, with customers tipping at the rail. One dancer brushed the other dancer's breast, and an undercover cop busted her for prostitution. The charges stuck because, under Texas law, there is no legal requirement that the person paying the money be the same person engaging in the 'sexual conduct'.


To make matters even more confusing, various US cities / counties have passed anti-strip club laws which restrict contact between dancers and customers. The way these penalties are legally classified ( as a sexually related misdemeanor ), being busted for sitting on a customer's lap in violation of one of these ordinances essentially shows up as a prostitution charge on the dancer's permanent record.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 10:13 AM
To make matters even more confusing, various US cities / counties have passed anti-strip club laws which restrict contact between dancers and customers. The way these penalties are legally classified ( as a sexually related misdemeanor ), being busted for sitting on a customer's lap in violation of one of these ordinances essentially shows up as a prostitution charge on the dancer's permanent record.

Yea. People forgot or are unaware that the contact levels in SCs did not occur due to sudden changes in the law that permits contact, but rather have often evolved as dancers took risks, and customers paid more for risk taking, back and forth.

Story - When my best buddy in HS got married we took him to a SC. This was well before private dances existed let alone lap dances and he had been to SCs before but they truly were view-only entertainment. We went to a club in Denver, and we were all amazed that some dancers on stage would reach over the rail and touch customers, ofter very sexually (e.g., running her fingers up and down his chest, faked kisses on the cheek, etc.)

Today SC goers and dancers would laugh at that, but the laws did not allow it. It's just that we went to area of town that had several clubs competing for business and dancers pushed limits to compete. That extra touching served the intended purpose of course; we spent wildly that night on those dancers who so engaged. We were younger and dumber and our hormones ruled our brain. When everyone is doing it in a SC, you figure hey, it must be okay right?

The addition of private dances, some light dancer initiated touching, some allowance for reciprocal touching, increased levels of touching, increased push to move this into increasingly private areas has been a slow but steady business evolution that occurred over many many years, yet the laws still may not allow it.

verfolgung
07-27-2009, 10:36 AM
Yea. People forgot or are unaware that the contact levels in SCs did not occur due to sudden changes in the law that permits contact, but rather have often evolved as dancers took risks, and customers paid more for risk taking, back and forth. ...

Unfortunately, if left unchecked this cycle has a tendency to lead to a downward spiral reducing to the lowest common denominator.

In a competitive environment, the dancers who first stepped out and pushed boundries may have seen increased earnings. Unfortunately with higher customer expectations, and a competitive environment where someone can usually find a willing partner, what starts out as more for more, eventually erodes to more for less.

CFMNH44
07-27-2009, 11:21 AM
...the popular phrase is that prostitution is the oldest profession ...

Others claim that marketing is the world's oldest profession, that because to engage in the other ‘profession’ one needs to know where to sell it, how to promote it, and how much to charge, etc. :)

Interesting thread… The older I get, the more 'conservative' I get and feel stronger and stronger that the government should not be intruding into people's lives. Like so many issues that don’t affect you or shouldn’t if you don’t want them to … If you don’t like strip clubs, don’t go to one! If you don’t like prostitutes don’t buy one! (I understand dancer’s issues with competing with them, much like women that worked near street worker’s corner’s get mistaken for one…) Laws are ever so slowly being relaxed for small quantities of marijuana, maybe the same can happen for the sex industry?

I’m ‘old school’ enough to remember when strip clubs had stages behind the bartender (Anyone know when ‘lap dances’ were ‘invented’?), so the only ‘contact’ (if any) was if you bought the dancer a drink. Even in places like Boston’s famous ‘Combat Zone’. Or maybe I was just too naive to notice. There were, of course, other bars were one could meet ‘ladies of the evening’, and the few dancers there worked there were not much more than a distraction. At least in those days it was quite separated – clubs to watch dancers, and others for meeting hookers – although both types of clubs were on the same block.

Incidentally I still enjoy watching a stage dance vs. a lap-dance in a dimly lit corner.

bigmarv
07-27-2009, 11:31 AM
LOL, dude...

A grown woman of legal age and sound mind puts a website up on the internet that advertises her availability as a companion for pay. I see the ad, like her looks and contact her. We hit it off, I agree to her fee and we arrange to meet. We have sex, at no time do I force her to do anything she does not want to do. When it's over I pay her for her time and she leaves. She sends me an email the next day thanking me for my generosity and for being a total gentleman and lets me know that she would love to see me again anytime.

How exactly is she being exploited here?

I believe this is also called a 'Win-Win" situation. It's what makes the hobby work. :)

xdamage
07-27-2009, 12:24 PM
Unfortunately, if left unchecked this cycle has a tendency to lead to a downward spiral reducing to the lowest common denominator.

In a competitive environment, the dancers who first stepped out and pushed boundries may have seen increased earnings. Unfortunately with higher customer expectations, and a competitive environment where someone can usually find a willing partner, what starts out as more for more, eventually erodes to more for less.

Yep. Agreed. Although it happens in so many businesses. We see the same in the electronic components markets as well; relatively small profits on electronics goods, memory, motherboards, etc., as so many companies jumped into the market, offering more for lower prices. When does it end? Maybe never, but we also are seeing the dark side which is a lot of poor quality goods are being sold too. I do believe in free markets but there is a downside as well, especially in an economy where we people tend to bargain hunt to save money.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 12:30 PM
Others claim that marketing is the world's oldest profession,


Err sure. It's just a saying. Only interesting in that people are saying they know it has been going on for a long time, even if cultures treat it as criminal or deny its existence, it's a trade that people have been making in open or secret throughout history (though who really kept track? nobody ;))

Marketing sure, but nobody is secretive about that making it not so interesting to call "the first" ;)

bem401
07-27-2009, 01:26 PM
Hey, I trade my intellectual knowledge and skills for pay. Am I being exploited?

Actually, you are, though not to your detriment. Your boss wouldn't hire you if he couldn't exploit your skills to make a profit. And you are exploiting him in that you are being paid by him to produce something, presumably more than you could get from someone else or on your own.

Earl_the_Pearl
07-27-2009, 02:43 PM
The Father, are you kidding me?? HAHAH :rotfl: He see them time to time but he hasnt ever paid Child support. My Father never did either, I know A LOT of single mothers, Id say about 50 and I think only 3 get child support and they arent even the whole amount half the time.
I hear this all of the time. I fell behind in my child support and woke up to two sheriffs officers standing at the foot of my bed. I spent the day in jail and was paraded around family court in an orange jump suit chained to 10 other men who missed payments.

I paid over $100,000 in support and my oldest was sent back to live with me. My ex married a dentist and drove a two seat BMW wile I drove an 8 year old Ford Taurus. The sheriff's deputies did make notes of my living conditions.

You say 85% don't pay; I don't know how they get away with it. They don't live in New Jersey is my guess.

babybambi08
07-27-2009, 04:19 PM
Well they dont care here in texas. They told my mom, that my dad didnt owe any money to the state so they said they were not going to try to get any money from him. ! ya

Cyril
07-27-2009, 06:10 PM
.. YOU probably have thought about it, but your ego or pride thinks you are above paying for pusy.


We all think about pretty much everything under the sun. That does not mean anything. It is more than just the ego; I just cannot have sex with someone who is sleeping with me for money. She does not have to love me but she has to be attracted to me.

Further more, I believe pussy is god's gift to man(kind) and therefore it should be free.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 06:19 PM
... I just cannot have sex with someone who is sleeping with me for money. She does not have to love me but she has to be attracted to me.


You have the right as a human to set any reasonable stipulations on what works for you with regards to who you choose to have sex with.



Further more, I believe pussy is god's gift to man(kind) and therefore it should be free.

But this... is there such thing as an anti-siggy? Cause if so I'd anti-quote this.

princessjas
07-27-2009, 06:34 PM
We all think about pretty much everything under the sun. That does not mean anything. It is more than just the ego; I just cannot have sex with someone who is sleeping with me for money. She does not have to love me but she has to be attracted to me.

Further more, I believe pussy is god's gift to man(kind) and therefore it should be free.

It is free... If you are a woman and it is your own. }:D Barring that, you need to barter for it with kindness, emotional connection, physical attractiveness or money. If you're not incredibly physically attractive and are unable or unwilling to form a bond, they yes, you will probably have to pay for sex. :O

babybambi08
07-27-2009, 06:38 PM
All in All Sex is not free, unless you have a pussy.
Women who pay for sex just dont know how to use it yet.

babybambi08
07-27-2009, 06:39 PM
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Joplin

My friends Grandma went to school with J.Joplin. She is from here Port Aruther Texas

Cyril
07-27-2009, 06:39 PM
If you not incredibly physically attractive and are unable or unwilling to form a bond, they yes, you will probably have to pay for sex. :O

I think jerking off would be much more civilized course of action under those circumstances.

Cyril
07-27-2009, 06:41 PM
Texas is an interesting place. All Americans should take a pilgrimage to Texas at least once in their life.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 06:48 PM
pj said it well...

Cyril, putting aside believing God entitles you to a woman's life or body, imagine if your employer said to you, Cyril, I think I am entitled to your intellectual or physical abilities for free; or if women said to you, I think I am entitled to have you give me your assets (your money, your kindness, your support) for nothing in return (no sex!) just because they decide in their head that their image of God says you just owe it to them just cause they want it. Come on... of course you want it to be free - that is what benefits you.

princessjas
07-27-2009, 06:55 PM
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose." Joplin

My friends Grandma went to school with J.Joplin. She is from here Port Aruther Texas

<<Iz sooo jealous!

Oh, are you kidding me? I would LOOOVE to meet her! Did she know J. Joplin well? She was a phenomenally interesting woman, such an fascinating dichotomy!

mediocrity
07-27-2009, 06:57 PM
Further more, I believe pussy is god's gift to man(kind) and therefore it should be free.

I'm so glad I'm an atheist.

xdamage
07-27-2009, 06:59 PM
I'm so glad I'm an atheist.

Unfortunately it is thinking like this which I also led me to become an atheist.

babybambi08
07-27-2009, 09:25 PM
<<Iz sooo jealous!

Oh, are you kidding me? I would LOOOVE to meet her! Did she know J. Joplin well? She was a phenomenally interesting woman, such an fascinating dichotomy!

lol she said she was always high and she was a slut lol..
But her grandma admited she was a slut too lol..

Almost Jaded
07-27-2009, 09:50 PM
Cyril - you never cease to amaze me in the most amazingly negative ways.

Other than that, cheers to different people with different POV's making the world an interesting place.

Women are are comfortable with it should be able to do it in a regulated and protected environment, and people who think it's awful shouldn't go to brothels. Where's the problem?

Oh - and whoever said "Escorting is prostitution" - um, no, I have known many, many "Clean" i.e., no sex, escorts in several cities. You hate the stereotypes leveled at dancers, don't go throwing them at escorts. Is it more prevalent with escorts than strippers? Yes. Are all escorts prostitutes? Not even close.

babybambi08
07-27-2009, 10:12 PM
I agree that not all escorts are prosititues, but most do have sex..
If I were to become an escort I would be like a HDH (high dollar hottie)
I wouldnt go with an agency, I would require more than an hour. I would have a requirement of a few hours, which like a lot of hdh. And they make more money, they attracted more gentelmen, rather than the average john.

Earl_the_Pearl
07-27-2009, 10:21 PM
Oh - and whoever said "Escorting is prostitution" - um, no, I have known many, many "Clean" i.e., no sex, escorts in several cities.
What do they charge and do they tell the PL up front he ain't gon'na get it? If they charge $300 an hour and let the PL think he gon'na get sum they are hustlers not escorts.

Non sex escorts get at most $40 an hour plus expenses.

babybambi08
07-27-2009, 11:21 PM
No Im sure if you needed an escort for something like a business party and you wanted to impress your partners or clients you could hire an escort and she would not just do it for 40$ that is just bs.. maybe a crack head..

xdamage
07-28-2009, 07:29 AM
Actually, you are, though not to your detriment. Your boss wouldn't hire you if he couldn't exploit your skills to make a profit. And you are exploiting him in that you are being paid by him to produce something, presumably more than you could get from someone else or on your own.

Interesting way to look at it bem. But I guess I was looking at the concept of exploitation differently ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploitation



taking something off a person or group that rightfully belongs to them
short-changing people in trade
directly or indirectly forcing somebody to work
using somebody against his will, or without his consent or knowledge
imposing an arbitrary differential treatment of people to the advantage of some and the disadvantage of others (as in ascriptive discrimination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination))

I'm not being forced to work anymore then anyone else since we are not entitled to jack. I'm consenting. I don't feel particularly short-changed. Would I like to be paid more? Surely. Would my employer like to pay less or have me work even harder? Surely. But for all practical purposes I've considered all my options in life including pay, stresses, what I want when I'm not working and decided this trade is a reasonable choice. I assume my employer feels likewise or wouldn't periodically give me more money to continue working.

All that said, I do think it is bothersome that some women may end up working as prostitutes feeling they have no other choices in life as it's fairly hard to sustain oneself without job skills, family, in some cases people have psychological problems, and I do believe exploited sex workers exist. But I don't believe it is black or white, all or nothing. I also believe there are sex workers who have weighed their option as well as any of us and choose. I made crappy money when I started out, but I weighed the options and chose lesser money and to live very frugally. That is an option we all have to weigh, vs sex work that pays more but trades off different costs. I see no reason to insult all female sex workers by assuming they are incapable of making adult choices (even if they choose differently then what the majority would choose).

ChoclatDiva21
07-28-2009, 09:52 AM
My ego will not let me enjoy the sex if I know she is sleeping with me for my money. :)

Finally-somebody that sees things the way I do!!!
I could never do the escort thing b/c I feel that if he's paid me, I don't have to be "good", just "there." It's mixing business with pleasure for me, so dancing is where I draw MY line.

ChoclatDiva21
07-28-2009, 10:06 AM
Unfortunately, if left unchecked this cycle has a tendency to lead to a downward spiral reducing to the lowest common denominator.

In a competitive environment, the dancers who first stepped out and pushed boundries may have seen increased earnings. Unfortunately with higher customer expectations, and a competitive environment where someone can usually find a willing partner, what starts out as more for more, eventually erodes to more for less.

Yep-enter $5 table dances & the tip drill video!

xdamage
07-28-2009, 10:53 AM
Finally-somebody that sees things the way I do!!!
I could never do the escort thing b/c I feel that if he's paid me, I don't have to be "good", just "there." It's mixing business with pleasure for me, so dancing is where I draw MY line.

Oh I wouldn't enjoy it either, which is why I've never used prostitutes and draw my line at strippers, but I think that is fairly common too. Many people say they mix emotions with sex and cannot or would rather not try to separate the two. Many enjoy that sex and emotions are inter-twined for them. That is all great.

OTOH I see no reason to impose my own personal limits on everyone else since others limits really have no negative effect on me. If other adults are comfortable with other sexual acts, paid for or otherwise, it is non-issue to me. And except for the fact that prostitutes negatively effect a dancer's business if they do it in the club, I assume most dancers would agree that this stance is a reasonable one. I do think we as a society need to watch out for exploitation of people who are in tough positions, but there is a big gray area between those exploited and those who choose.

bem401
07-28-2009, 03:03 PM
Interesting way to look at it bem. But I guess I was looking at the concept of exploitation differently ...

I'm not being forced to work anymore then anyone else since we are not entitled to jack. I'm consenting. I don't feel particularly short-changed. Would I like to be paid more? Surely. Would my employer like to pay less or have me work even harder? Surely. But for all practical purposes I've considered all my options in life including pay, stresses, what I want when I'm not working and decided this trade is a reasonable choice. I assume my employer feels likewise or wouldn't periodically give me more money to continue working.

All that said, I do think it is bothersome that some women may end up working as prostitutes feeling they have no other choices in life as it's fairly hard to sustain oneself without job skills, family, in some cases people have psychological problems, and I do believe exploited sex workers exist. But I don't believe it is black or white, all or nothing. I also believe there are sex workers who have weighed their option as well as any of us and choose. I made crappy money when I started out, but I weighed the options and chose lesser money and to live very frugally. That is an option we all have to weigh, vs sex work that pays more but trades off different costs. I see no reason to insult all female sex workers by assuming they are incapable of making adult choices (even if they choose differently then what the majority would choose).

I don't disagree with you X, but I never used the word "exploitation". I used the following definition of the word "exploit":

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exploit

–verb (used with object)
1. to utilize, esp. for profit; turn to practical account: to exploit a business opportunity.
2. to use selfishly for one's own ends: employers who exploit their workers.
3. to advance or further through exploitation; promote: He exploited his new movie through a series of guest appearances.

Hell, Nike exploits Tiger Woods' fame and marketability to sell athletic equipment and pays him millions per year to do so. I wish I could be exploited like that. I wasn't taking the word in its most negative sense. I think definition #2 here is the most applicable in terms of the customer/dancer dynamic.

I am not saying anyone is incapable of making adult decisions. I think there are both female and male victims in the clubs. Anyone calling escorts or setting foot in SC's should do so with both eyes open, regardless of whether they are a dancer or escort or a customer because there are people on either side waiting to take advantage of any perceived weakness.

Almost Jaded
07-28-2009, 04:22 PM
Earl - I shudder to think the kind of escort that $40/hour gets you, lol.

Most charge $125-$150 an hour plus tips. The ones I worked with (I was a driver/bodyguard for a couple of them) were very upfront about what they would or wouldn't do. Sometimes the guys get upset, usually they're okay with it.

Kinda like VIP, lol.

Cyril
07-28-2009, 08:04 PM
Finally-somebody that sees things the way I do!!!
I could never do the escort thing b/c I feel that if he's paid me, I don't have to be "good", just "there." It's mixing business with pleasure for me, so dancing is where I draw MY line.

I am glad someone sees my point.

Earl_the_Pearl
07-28-2009, 10:15 PM
Earl - I shudder to think the kind of escort that $40/hour gets you, lol.

I guess you didn't read the quote.



Non sex escorts get at most $40 an hour plus expenses.

That is of course the non hustle Pimp pull a gun bate and switch escort.

bumrubber
07-30-2009, 12:05 AM
Maybe dancing in clubs in the US would be 'cleaner' if more states allowed legal brothels to operate?! I've worked in the UK and now Australia and thanks to what I read on here in regards to what happens on the premises in some US clubs...WHOA not cool!!!

Seems to be the case in Canada. Prostitution is legal in BC and most of the strip clubs there just have stage shows, no private areas, and no lap dances.

What is illegal in BC is public solicitation, and the cops are as hard on that as they are in the US. Strangely, there seems to be just as much (illegal) street prostitution.

Almost Jaded
07-30-2009, 12:28 AM
What is illegal in BC is public solicitation, and the cops are as hard on that as they are in the US. Strangely, there seems to be just as much (illegal) street prostitution.

That would be because they're just as hard on it as in the US, LMAO!

lmiller22134
07-30-2009, 03:40 AM
My ego will not let me enjoy the sex if I know she is sleeping with me for my money. :)

would you enjoy the sex if she was sleeping with you for free as a random fling? how about when you find out that the only reason she is hooking up with you, a stranger, is because she has self esteem issues that she hasnt worked out and is brainwashed by the media to think that she has to be sexual and "sexy" in order to be "cool."
I really really want to know what your opinion on girls who have casual sex is. Clearly you think having sex with a stranger for money is damaging. What about just having sex with a stranger, PERIOD, no money involved.
Personally i think casual sex is far more damaging that prostitution. At least hookers get SOMETHING besides an std and an unwanted child out of it.

lmiller22134
07-30-2009, 04:14 AM
We all think about pretty much everything under the sun. That does not mean anything. It is more than just the ego; I just cannot have sex with someone who is sleeping with me for money. She does not have to love me but she has to be attracted to me.

Further more, I believe pussy is god's gift to man(kind) and therefore it should be free.

woah there so all that bullshit you spewed about how prostitution is harmful and degrading and bad for the emotional state of women was just that, bullshit! you dont give a rats ass about womens rights, all you care about is getting free ass. If anyone is exploiting women it is YOU for expecting women togive away pussy for free.
my pussy is NOT free and i am super pissed that so many men feel freaking entitled to it. You have to put in long hard hours of work, love and commitment to even get a freaking chance to my pussy, and i do the same for a guys "dick" (whenever i have a bf i try my best to make him happy, buy him gifts, and show him lots of affection and i expect the same amount of work in return) so shut the fuck up.

it is one thing to be against prostitution because of trafficking or because of the emotional side effects of having loveless sex...but to be against it because you cant stand the thought of having to work to get laid. you make me sick and you are the type of person who is harmful to women, not men who pay thousands of dollars for an "escort"

xdamage
07-30-2009, 05:43 AM
... If anyone is exploiting women it is YOU for expecting women togive away pussy for free.,,,
my pussy is NOT free and i am super pissed that so many men feel freaking entitled to it. ...

Strangely I can only get so upset because there are a lot of social messages that feed into why men think this way from an early age in life (and of course men promote this thinking as well because it would benefit them), but you're right it is fundamentally exploitation.

For guys like Cyril then, sexuality is an asset like any other personal asset. If a person has it, they can trade it (as surely as they can trade their intellectual skills, physical health, endurance, willingness to be emotionally supportive, status, accumulated financial resources) to improve their lot in life. These assets can be used in trade to find better mates; to earn more money; for personal pleasure; etc.

Insisting that a woman's sexuality is not tradeable and must be given freely is really no different then insisting that men can't trade their intellect, their physical well being, their status, etc.) which of course all guys do all the time.

On the flip side...

One thing people can trade is sexual exclusivity. If this is important to you then you simply hold out trading your assets until you meet someone who is willing to trade that. Another thing you can trade is romantic notions, the emotional charges and connectivity, which some also enjoy intertwined with sexual exclusivity. Great, if that's what you want, then trade for that.

But often what guys want is some number of women to give away their sexual assets for free, and yet a few others they will lavish their resources on to not. It's called wanting the world to be so arranged that we can "have our cake and eat it too".