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Almost Jaded
08-18-2009, 10:58 PM
Precisely.

You say you see "things" from a stripper's PoV; now you've narrowed it down to you try to keep their interests in mind when viewing the industry - the industry about which you know nothing about.

Cyril - keep in mind (assuming you read any of what I posted in another thread) - I learn about new industries and start new businesses for a living. I understand all too well the concept of seeing things from the outside/a fresh perspective; understand all too well the benefits AND the pitfalls of NOT learning it from the inside as well.

So when I tell you that -

A. - your PoV re dancers personal lives is off, it's because the VAST majority of them tell you so, and because I have a VASTLY greater knowledge of their day to day work and personal lives than you do - and I would never make so bold a statement as you have; and -

B. when i tell you your ideas regarding the industry are flawed, it's because I both know the actual industry better than you do, and because I know the business of revamping an industry or a business within an industry better than you do (unless you have some heretofore undisclosed expertise in this arena - so far your posts and commentary do not lend themselves to this being a strong possibility).

Your insistence that you know better than anyone here all these things whilst displaying a plain and frightening level of ignorance on all matters strip club is why you draw the critisism you do.

Hopper
08-19-2009, 01:15 AM
...

And this is where I stopped reading your posts and also put you on ignore. The ignorance in this posts is simply amazing. And your brief history was rather lacking in facts within a broader historical context. You're picking and choosing what facts you'd like to present, and ignoring the earlier roots of feminism because they make you feel uncomfortable, or icky, or who the fuck knows.

Ok, now back to reading non-idiotic posts in this thread.

The "historical context" you claim for feminism is based on feminism's own assumptions about and ideological view of society. Similar to viewing the history of Nazism on the basis of Nazi claims of Jewish crimes against Germans. My history revealed an essential element of feminism's history which feminism, being a political front movement, necessarily conceals. The facts I presented were not selective, they are the true context of the movement.

xdamage
08-19-2009, 05:42 AM
This post is absurd for it does not counter any of the points made by me. It just harps on the same old tune "Cyril does not go to the club". I reject the spirit of this post.


This is like someone saying "I take great pity on the homeless and wish for them changes of safe places to sleep, food in their bellies, and a chance to work". You didn't counter my points!

Who is going to counter those specific points? Nobody.

But the fact remains that having those thoughts isn't actually doing anything for them either. It is for you, to sit around and pat yourself on the back for thinking it.

It is also presumptuous to assume that customers here aren't in agreement, but since we can't really do anything about the club owner rules, we leave it at that.

Yea, I wasn't countering your points. I am countering that you've said it many times but take no action. You're not actually in a position nor want to be to go make any of those changes.

On the flip side if every time you talked with a homeless person you didn't listen to them, thought you understood their plight better then they do, that is a tangible real matter. And this is what is being pointed out to you repeatedly and you keep ignoring it by saying that you know better then those who are actually involved (and apparently can't understand why we are all able to see why it doesn't work, not in this situation, not in so many others in life by way of our own experiences).

Cyril
08-19-2009, 07:41 PM
This is like someone saying "I take great pity on the homeless and wish for them changes of safe places to sleep, food in their bellies, and a chance to work". You didn't counter my points!

Who is going to counter those specific points? Nobody.

But the fact remains that having those thoughts isn't actually doing anything for them either. It is for you, to sit around and pat yourself on the back for thinking it.

It is also presumptuous to assume that customers here aren't in agreement, but since we can't really do anything about the club owner rules, we leave it at that.

Yea, I wasn't countering your points. I am countering that you've said it many times but take no action. You're not actually in a position nor want to be to go make any of those changes.

On the flip side if every time you talked with a homeless person you didn't listen to them, thought you understood their plight better then they do, that is a tangible real matter. And this is what is being pointed out to you repeatedly and you keep ignoring it by saying that you know better then those who are actually involved (and apparently can't understand why we are all able to see why it doesn't work, not in this situation, not in so many others in life by way of our own experiences).

I am simply saying I see things from their perspective and I gave the examples of those perspectives. Instead of countering those examples and showing that those were not the perspective of the strippers, you wrote a long and irrelevant post.

bem401
08-20-2009, 10:25 AM
If it weren't for the other thread, I would have thought you were joking. Since you're probably not, I'm going to go ahead and put you on ignore, Pat Buchanan.

Ignore away. Good idea, God forbid someone who leans left actually debate an issue on its merits.

Almost Jaded
08-20-2009, 11:46 AM
Don't be obtuse Bem, Otoki and a few others here are generally forthright and intelligent in there participation in such discussions. I sometimes disagree with her/them, but she's not one you can dismiss as unwilling to debate on merit.

That said, Otoki - Hopper has made some really excellent points along the way, and it's really too bad you won't read them. He's not as right-leaning as some of his posts make him out to be; like myself (granted, you disagree with me a lot too, lol) he's lamenting where the political structure of the left has headed, and is trying to get people to see the deviation from true meaning that many of the modern liberal causes represent.

bem401
08-20-2009, 12:51 PM
Don't be obtuse Bem, Otoki and a few others here are generally forthright and intelligent in there participation in such discussions. I sometimes disagree with her/them, but she's not one you can dismiss as unwilling to debate on merit.

Then let her debate, not name-call.

AJ, she's never engaged in any debates I've been a part of. I think I have agreed with her on things industry-related but my limited interaction with her on political issues ( I've never seen her in the political section of community groups ) was to have her tell me she was unwilling to debate the issue. She supports government intervention in health care and doesn't want to discuss it.

Elvia
08-20-2009, 12:59 PM
I am simply saying I see things from their perspective and I gave the examples of those perspectives. Instead of countering those examples and showing that those were not the perspective of the strippers, you wrote a long and irrelevant post.

The strippers on this board have made it very clear that you do not speak for us. Exactly how much more proof do you need?!?

xdamage
08-20-2009, 01:48 PM
^^^ Just wanted to add...

The thing is it is insulting. It requires he start with an assumption that at its worst can be expressed as "strippers are just poor weak minded women who need me to stand up for them, to solve their problems for them, and save them."

Any guy would find that terribly insulting, if a woman joined a male oriented group decided we were all clueless and needed her to solve our "conundrums" and straighten out our thinking.

It requires only the tiniest amount of stepping into the others shoes to see why it is insulting, particularly in the context of this forum which is primarily for dancers.

Elvia
08-20-2009, 01:56 PM
I sometimes think that Cyril comes from a culture that has that kind of view of women. He speaks English well enough, but sometimes things are a bit...off. He often unfamiliar with common idioms, or gets confused and takes them literally, and he sometimes chooses to phrase things in a really weird way, making me suspect he's not a native English speaker,or at least not a native to western culture. Perhaps some cultural differences at play might explain some...shall we say...well, differences.

xdamage
08-20-2009, 03:33 PM
I sometimes think that Cyril comes from a culture that has that kind of view of women. He speaks English well enough, but sometimes things are a bit...off. He often unfamiliar with common idioms, or gets confused and takes them literally, and he sometimes chooses to phrase things in a really weird way, making me suspect he's not a native English speaker,or at least not a native to western culture. Perhaps some cultural differences at play might explain some...shall we say...well, differences.

Agreed. We guys also believe much of what we learn from our societies. Just yea... the mindset that women are not full adults is slowly but surely passing in parts of the world.

MissMynxx
08-20-2009, 05:06 PM
I sometimes think that Cyril comes from a culture that has that kind of view of women. He speaks English well enough, but sometimes things are a bit...off. He often unfamiliar with common idioms, or gets confused and takes them literally, and he sometimes chooses to phrase things in a really weird way, making me suspect he's not a native English speaker,or at least not a native to western culture. Perhaps some cultural differences at play might explain some...shall we say...well, differences.

OH MY GOD. I have been trying to accurately express my feelings toward Cyril for quite a while, and put my finger on exactly what it is about him that seems "off". This is exactly it! He reminds me a lot of the customers that would come into the club from a culture that has a certain ... how to say this ... unfavorable opinion of women. I think, despite what he may or may not deny, that you may be right on the money, darling.

mediocrity
08-20-2009, 05:11 PM
I sometimes think that Cyril comes from a culture that has that kind of view of women. He speaks English well enough, but sometimes things are a bit...off. He often unfamiliar with common idioms, or gets confused and takes them literally, and he sometimes chooses to phrase things in a really weird way, making me suspect he's not a native English speaker,or at least not a native to western culture. Perhaps some cultural differences at play might explain some...shall we say...well, differences.

I have thought the same thing for ages.

sexy_adriana
08-20-2009, 06:30 PM
I sometimes think that Cyril comes from a culture that has that kind of view of women. He speaks English well enough, but sometimes things are a bit...off. He often unfamiliar with common idioms, or gets confused and takes them literally, and he sometimes chooses to phrase things in a really weird way, making me suspect he's not a native English speaker,or at least not a native to western culture. Perhaps some cultural differences at play might explain some...shall we say...well, differences.

I am going to guess that he is from either Pakistan or India.

Elvia
08-20-2009, 06:42 PM
^^ I think that's a good guess.

xdamage
08-20-2009, 08:13 PM
Okay I admit I guessed the same a few weeks ago and told mediocrity my guess as to from where - enough said ;)

Cyril
08-20-2009, 09:01 PM
The strippers on this board have made it very clear that you do not speak for us. Exactly how much more proof do you need?!?

Once again you are failing to counter the point. Whether I speak for strippers or not is not the issue. The issue is I see their perspective.

In a nutshell, I am talking about apples and you are bringing in oranges.

saphire123456
08-20-2009, 09:07 PM
OH MY GOD. I have been trying to accurately express my feelings toward Cyril for quite a while, and put my finger on exactly what it is about him that seems "off". This is exactly it! He reminds me a lot of the customers that would come into the club from a culture that has a certain ... how to say this ... unfavorable opinion of women. I think, despite what he may or may not deny, that you may be right on the money, darling.

thats how i felt too
cyril- just because you love the zoo, doesn't mean you speak leopard

Cyril
08-20-2009, 09:11 PM
OH MY GOD. I have been trying to accurately express my feelings toward Cyril for quite a while, and put my finger on exactly what it is about him that seems "off". This is exactly it! He reminds me a lot of the customers that would come into the club from a culture that has a certain ... how to say this ... unfavorable opinion of women. I think, despite what he may or may not deny, that you may be right on the money, darling.

Really? How exactly did you reach on that conclusion?

Cyril
08-20-2009, 09:15 PM
thats how i felt too
cyril- just because you love the zoo, doesn't mean you speak leopard

What does that mean? /:O

Cyril
08-20-2009, 10:27 PM
I sometimes think that Cyril comes from a culture that has that kind of view of women. He speaks English well enough, but sometimes things are a bit...off. He often unfamiliar with common idioms, or gets confused and takes them literally, and he sometimes chooses to phrase things in a really weird way, making me suspect he's not a native English speaker,or at least not a native to western culture. Perhaps some cultural differences at play might explain some...shall we say...well, differences.

I am not even native to the earth. Have you considered that possibility?

Cyril
08-20-2009, 10:29 PM
I am going to guess that he is from either Pakistan or India.

I could also be from Sri Lanka. What do you say?

xdamage
08-20-2009, 10:34 PM
thats how i felt too
cyril- just because you love the zoo, doesn't mean you speak leopard

Perfectly put...


What does that mean? /:O

You jest? Surely you must get how this applies no?

Cyril
08-20-2009, 10:40 PM
Perfectly put...



You jest? Surely you must get how this applies no?

I can guess although I hate guesses.

OK, here it is. She is talking about my love for strippers. She says just because I love strippers that does not mean I understand SS. Is that correct?

xdamage
08-20-2009, 10:54 PM
I can guess although I hate guesses.

OK, here it is. She is talking about my love for strippers. She says just because I love strippers that does not mean I understand SS. Is that correct?

No.

She means that even if you hang around at the zoo and love the show of the zoo (and the part of the zoo you see is a show carefully orchestrated to hide from you the realities of day to day care of those who live and work there), it does not mean you understand the minds of the beings that actually live/breathe/subside there.

That at best what you love about strippers is the aspects you have seen as your (very limited by your own admission) experiences as a customer and distant view (the show). You don't actually understand how they think or feel from the PoV of what it is like to be in their shoes.


The best tangental analogy I can give is of a kid who lived a spoiled life, who loves going to the zoo to see the animals as he views it from the mind of a spoiled kid, but he is utterly clueless in regards to the hard lives the animals actually live and couldn't possibly understand it without first growing up emotionally and mentally.

Cyril
08-20-2009, 11:05 PM
No.

She means that even if you hang around at the zoo and love the show of the zoo (and the part of the zoo you see is a show carefully orchestrated to hide from you the realities of day to day care of those who live and work there), it does not mean you understand the minds of the beings that actually live/breathe/subside there.

That at best what you love about strippers is the aspects you have seen as your (very limited by your own admission) experiences as a customer and distant view (the show). You don't actually understand how they think or feel from the PoV of what it is like to be in their shoes.


The best tangental analogy I can give is of a kid who lived a spoiled life, who loves going to the zoo to see the animals as he views it from the mind of a spoiled kid, but he is utterly clueless in regards to the hard lives the animals actually live and couldn't possibly understand it without first growing up emotionally and mentally.

This is the classic case of grandiose you engage in. You are saying that somehow you understand strippers better than I do. I categorically reject that.

Actually, according to your analogy, it is you, the kid, who goes to the zoo (the strip club). I just watch them on the discovery channel (the stripper web).

Let me summarize it for those with short attention span:

- You are a kid who goes to the zoo
- I am a kid who watches them on the discovery channel

What is the difference?

OK, I will grant you that you get to feed them banana or peanut when you go to the zoo. Other than that, what is the difference between you and I?

xdamage
08-20-2009, 11:17 PM
This is the classic case of grandiose you engage in. You are saying that somehow you understand strippers better than I do. I categorically reject that.

Actually, according to your analogy, it is you, the kid, who goes to the zoo (the strip club). I just watch them on the discovery channel (the stripper web).

Let me summarize it for those with short attention span:

- You are a kid who goes to the zoo
- I am a kid who watches them on the discovery channel

What is the difference?

OK, I will grant you that you get to feed them banana or peanut when you go to the zoo. Other than that, what is the difference?


Nice one, so again you insulted all dancers and now the customers with the "banana or peanut" feeding imagery. Need a bigger shovel for the hole you are trying to dig?

Most of us (self included) don't not claim to understand the life experiences of the dancers. We accept that they have unique life experience we don't. We also don't claim that sitting around and being none of a customer, dancer or club owner makes us uniquely wiser (your belief about yourself that we were disputing but you now have tried to dodge multiple ways).

Second, agreed. You're the kid that is afraid to even be at the zoo because it is too up close and personal and so live life from behind a T.V. screen. Maybe one day you'll grow up and get out of the house and experience some of life hands on.

Cyril
08-20-2009, 11:18 PM
Nice one, so again you insulted all dancers and now the customers with the "banana or peanut" feeding imagery. Need a bigger shovel for the hole you are trying to dig?

Most of us (self included) don't not claim to understand the life experiences of the dancers. We accept that they have unique life experience we don't. We also don't claim that sitting around and being none of a customer, dancer or club owner makes us uniquely wiser (your belief about yourself that we were disputing but you now have tried to dodge multiple ways).

Second, agreed. You're the kid that is afraid to even be at the zoo because it is too up close and personal and so live life from behind a T.V. screen. Maybe one day you'll grow up and get out of the house and experience some of life hands on.

It was your analogy not mine. So, it is you who insulted the strippers not me.

xdamage
08-20-2009, 11:26 PM
It was your analogy not mine. So, it is you who insulted the strippers not me.

Actually it was sapphire123456's analogy, which you did not understand... and either forgot about in the period of about an hour, or hoping to use yet another attempt at indirection to hide from digging yourself a deeper hole.

Hopper
08-21-2009, 12:23 AM
Don't be obtuse Bem, Otoki and a few others here are generally forthright and intelligent in there participation in such discussions. I sometimes disagree with her/them, but she's not one you can dismiss as unwilling to debate on merit.

I thought of pulling her up for being closed-minded too. I don't ignore people just for disagreeing with me, no matter how wrong I think they are.


That said, Otoki - Hopper has made some really excellent points along the way, and it's really too bad you won't read them. He's not as right-leaning as some of his posts make him out to be; like myself (granted, you disagree with me a lot too, lol) he's lamenting where the political structure of the left has headed, and is trying to get people to see the deviation from true meaning that many of the modern liberal causes represent.

I'm not right-leaning at all actually - I'm off the spectrum The right/left dichotomy is completely bogus, since right and left are both essentially the same, only cosmetically different. People think because I oppose the left that I must be on the right.

Hitler said that Communists would make the best Nazis. Same would have gone for feminists, since some of the policies the Nazi's imposed or experimented with were what we would call feminist policies today. For instance, they encouraged women to bear children (with men they were not married to) for the state in breeding programs, rather than rearing them themselves in families. The Nazi party was their family!

And I mentionned earlier Margaret Sanger's Birth Control League (now called Planned Parenthood) and their racist eugenics. They were allied with the Communists and otehr socialist groups of their day. The Nazi's took their eugenics ideas from Sanger. They imposed euthanisation of the aged, disabled, retarded, lower classes in oder to lower the population - eliminate useless eaters. Population is another feminist hobby horse and the Nazi policy is the same as the environmentalist idea of lowering population impact on the environment and resources. Feminism is allied to environmentalism. (It's a patriarchal rape of the planet you see.)

There are close parallels between Communism and Nazism. Both are forms of socialism ("Nazi" stands for "national socialist worker's party"). Both have a "master race" ideology.

Stop me if you've heard all this before.

Cyril
08-21-2009, 12:29 AM
Actually it was sapphire123456's analogy, which you did not understand... and either forgot about in the period of about an hour, or hoping to use yet another attempt at indirection to hide from digging yourself a deeper hole.

So you knew it was Sahpire's analogy and yet you placed the blame on me. This is yet another example of you blatantly lying.

Otoki
08-21-2009, 02:21 AM
Don't be obtuse Bem, Otoki and a few others here are generally forthright and intelligent in there participation in such discussions. I sometimes disagree with her/them, but she's not one you can dismiss as unwilling to debate on merit.

That said, Otoki - Hopper has made some really excellent points along the way, and it's really too bad you won't read them. He's not as right-leaning as some of his posts make him out to be; like myself (granted, you disagree with me a lot too, lol) he's lamenting where the political structure of the left has headed, and is trying to get people to see the deviation from true meaning that many of the modern liberal causes represent.
If you'd like to quote some of Hopper's good points and PM me, that's fine and dandy. But I'm not going to slog through a "socialist history of leftist America" or whatever he was going on about. I've already dealt with enough of that hysterical bullshit on another site and have no patience to deal with it here.

As for bem: am I really supposed to find merit in a claim about white people being the most discriminated demographic in this country? Really?

I'll post the clip of Pat Buchanan spewing his "white people built this country" idiocy if I have to, because what bem said is almost a direct quote by Buchanan.

Hopper
08-21-2009, 02:57 AM
^Since I obviously can't make it any worse for myself, it is true that white people built the US. It was whites, using European ideas, who put in place the political and economic system which made progress possible. It was the most brilliant system the world had yet (or has since) seen, and it was all thought up by whites.

I know the labour of many black slaves was used, and that people of other colours lived in the US; but without the system the whites installed, the slave labour system which plantation-owners used, and citizens of all colours, would not have made such progress on their own.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Scene_at_the_Signing_of_the_Constitution_of_the_Un ited_States.png

There is nothing inherently offensive about stating this. Nobody would be offended if a Chinese pointed out that China was built by Asians. However, I am not a supporter of Pat Buchanan.

In defense of bem's original statement, whites and males are frequently and unfairly vilified.

xdamage
08-21-2009, 05:21 AM
So you knew it was Sahpire's analogy and yet you placed the blame on me. This is yet another example of you blatantly lying.

Wow, so now you've selectively forgotten that you didn't understand her analogy and it was being explained to you? You are one messed up dude.

bem401
08-21-2009, 06:08 AM
As for bem: am I really supposed to find merit in a claim about white people being the most discriminated demographic in this country? Really?

It is absolutely true. Every other demographic has an advocacy group and special programs and set-asides for them. I'm not complaining about being a white male mind you. I am just acknowledging a reality. I also acknowledge that being a white male affords me certain advantages it does not afford others.

Otoki
08-21-2009, 08:26 AM
It is absolutely true. Every other demographic has an advocacy group and special programs and set-asides for them. I'm not complaining about being a white male mind you. I am just acknowledging a reality. I also acknowledge that being a white male affords me certain advantages it does not afford others.
OK, while i strongly disagree with your assertion about being the most discriminated against, I agree with and am relieved that you understand the position of entitlement/advantage that you have as a white person (and a man). While I still think you're completely wrong that white people are "the most discriminated against" (we're talking both systemamtically and otherwise) I can see you're not completely buying into Buchannan's "Boo hoo poor white people, the VICTIMS!" rhetoric.

xdamage
08-21-2009, 08:50 AM
OK, while i strongly disagree with your assertion about being the most discriminated against, I agree with and am relieved that you understand the position of entitlement/advantage that you have as a white person (and a man).

We white males do have an advantage but such is human nature. When people have advantages in large groups the following are true:

1.) It is often a statistical advantage, but not a guarantee of success.

2.) It doesn't stroke the ego of those who are being treated advantageously to believe they are (it is far more of an ego stroke to believe that we have "made our own way" and we tend to be blind to how we were advantaged).

3.) It is difficult to separate out where an individuals responsibility for their successes (and failures) begin/end when we talk about statistical advantages (and disadvantages) they are born with or into.

So we end up with being able to see the pattern for a large group, but individually unable to say exactly how it impacts on them.

What is true is that when large groups of people tend to be on opposite sides of the fence, sometimes they are arguing across each other.

Specifically... those less advantaged tended to do poorer tend to try less hard to save for the future.... is a vicious cycle that those on the other side of the fence are not immune from, just fortunate enough not to have experienced. If they had been born with different genes (pure random chance), and a different life experience, they really cannot prove to us that they would have done any better or feel any different then what they criticize.

Bottom line ... bem is right that our society needs to continue to teach personal responsibility and face facts that if our society fails it won't just be because of government, but because of our attitudes and actions as a whole. On the flip side it won't hurt us to have compassion for those less fortunate among us.

Almost Jaded
08-21-2009, 12:52 PM
I also think Pat's rantings were asinine; but there is - please don;t hate me for saying it - something to it on some level. As Bem pointed out, our nations fight against discrimination has turned to a point where the middle or upper class white male - while having some advantages as recognized by Bem and expounded upon by X - finds himself on the flip side of the coin more often than some might realize these days.

Frankly, be that as it may, it's an issue that's pretty far down the priority list, lol.

Cyril
08-21-2009, 01:04 PM
Wow, so now you've selectively forgotten that you didn't understand her analogy and it was being explained to you? You are one messed up dude.

You are lying again. You specifically blamed me for coining the analogy, which I clearly did not. Go back and read your own post.

bluelight
08-21-2009, 01:20 PM
I left the country for a week, come back and this thread is still on fire.
wow.

is this even about prostitution anymore??

xdamage
08-21-2009, 02:38 PM
You are lying again. You specifically blamed me for coining the analogy, which I clearly did not. Go back and read your own post.

Cyril, only you could take her perfectly fine analogy, admit you don't understand it, have it explained it to you, turn it into an insult by adding in a "throw peanuts and bananas" at them twist, and then continue to go "huh what me?" You were correct to begin with... yep, you do not get it.

Almost Jaded
08-21-2009, 03:06 PM
MM and I are going to go to a brothel here in NV soon. We're looking forward to it tremendously, and are glad that such an experience is legal and local. :)

Cyril
08-21-2009, 03:11 PM
Cyril, only you could take her perfectly fine analogy, admit you don't understand it, have it explained it to you, turn it into an insult by adding in a "throw peanuts and bananas" at them twist, and then continue to go "huh what me?" You were correct to begin with... yep, you do not get it.

Hombre, I get it. I am beginning to analyze your mind now. Give me couple of more weeks, you will be an open book to me.

princessjas
08-21-2009, 09:33 PM
OH MY GOD. I have been trying to accurately express my feelings toward Cyril for quite a while, and put my finger on exactly what it is about him that seems "off". This is exactly it! He reminds me a lot of the customers that would come into the club from a culture that has a certain ... how to say this ... unfavorable opinion of women. I think, despite what he may or may not deny, that you may be right on the money, darling.

Ya, I didn't want to mention it earlier, but he reminds me of my ex-finacee who was Algerian. Similar "I looove women" attitude...yanno, he loves them in the same way you looove an adorable kitten or other mindless, pretty pet.

Hopper
08-21-2009, 10:32 PM
OK, while i strongly disagree with your assertion about being the most discriminated against, I agree with and am relieved that you understand the position of entitlement/advantage that you have as a white person (and a man). While I still think you're completely wrong that white people are "the most discriminated against" (we're talking both systemamtically and otherwise) I can see you're not completely buying into Buchannan's "Boo hoo poor white people, the VICTIMS!" rhetoric.

Whatever advantages whites get from living in a white country are evenned out by the advantages people of other races have in countries where their own races dominate.

However, it's not about colour, but cultural background. People of the same background have a natural affinity for one another, so people of the dominant culture in a given country will be more apt to help one another. People of non-dominant cultures in a given country will band together to help each other too, so that is also evenned out to some extent.

The whole idea of the white man being a privileged class in his own country is really just more of the simplistic left-wing ideology. What about lower income white men? An Asian doctor has an advantage over a white cleaner. How does an Asian become a Doctor in such a "systematically" racist society?

This ideology is the same as the Nazi claim that Jews were a privileged class who were oppressing "real Germans". (Except for the "degenerate" Jews in the ghettos.) It's the old, political "divide and conquer" strategy which benefits the people who are really in power.

So it is true that whites (and males, and straights etc) are politically targetted by their own government (odd!), a policy supported by left-wing agitators. Of course they also have the natural advantages from having built their own country in the first place.

That is precisely why they are being targetted: Whites originally built a system based on individual freedom. Politicians and business monopolists don't like that. Their aim is to dismantle the system, by removing the culture (ideas and values) it was founded upon, by vilifying the "race" (European) which happenned to develop that culture. If it had been blacks who developed this system, they would be the ones now being targetted.

Of course, I don't believe in the idea of race, I just use it when talking about the left's ideology about alleged racial oppression, which is based on the idea of race. What makes it all irrellevant is that people of any race are free to participate, in white countries or their own countries, in the system whites devised.

I don't know what Buchanan says. He's a Republican, so he's probably a socialist too.

xdamage
08-21-2009, 10:48 PM
Whatever advantages whites get from living in a white country are evenned out by the advantages people of other races have in countries where their own races dominate.

However, it's not about colour, but cultural background. People of the same background have a natural affinity for one another, so people of the dominant culture in a given country will be more apt to help one another. People of non-dominant cultures in a given country will band together to help each other too, so that is also evenned out to some extent.



This is a fair point and I've made it myself in the past, that if you look at human behavior world-wide, the USA is hardly unique in this regard. Visit other parts of the world and you rapidly learn that Hopper's point that different (not just white) people have advantages in their own countries. People in this country are not uniquely evil because a particular group happened to become dominant. The rest of the world has it's shaded past as well, and in many countries they are still far behind ours in terms of matters like fair treatment of women, treatment of minorities (measured relative to their own society), etc.

eagle2
08-21-2009, 11:52 PM
Whatever advantages whites get from living in a white country are evenned out by the advantages people of other races have in countries where their own races dominate.

However, it's not about colour, but cultural background. People of the same background have a natural affinity for one another, so people of the dominant culture in a given country will be more apt to help one another. People of non-dominant cultures in a given country will band together to help each other too, so that is also evenned out to some extent.

The whole idea of the white man being a priveledged class in his own country is really just more of the simplistic left-wing ideology. What about lower income white men? An Asian doctor has an advantage over a white cleaner. Gee, how does an Asian become a Doctor in such a "systematically" racist society.

This ideology is the same as the Nazi claim that Jews were a privileged class who were oppressing "real Germans". (Except for the "degenerate" Jews in the ghettos). It's the old, political "divide and conquer" strategy which benefits the people who are really in power.

So it is true that whites (and males, and straights etc) are politically targetted by their own government (odd!), a policy supported by left-wing agitators. Of course they also have the natural advantages from having built their own country in the first place.

That is precisely why he is being targetted: Whites originally built a system based on individual freedom. Politicians and business monopolists don't like that. Their aim is to dismantle the system, by removing the culture (ideas and values) it was founded upon, by vilifying the "race" (European) which happenned to develop that culture. If it had been blacks who developed this system, they would be the ones now being targetted.

Of course, I don't believe in the idea of race, I just use it when talking about the left's ideology about alleged racial oppression, which is based on the idea of race. What makes it all irrellevant is that people of any race are free to participate, in white countries or their own countries, in the system whites devised.

I don't know what Buchanan says. He's a Republican, so he's probably a socialist too.

This is utter nonsense. You are completely ignoring the history of the United States. People who were not white Christian males have been second class citizens, or worse, for most of our country's history. People who were not white-Christian males were kept out of positions of power. Prestigious jobs, such as doctors and lawyers, were only available to white males. Women make up about 50% of our country's population, yet we did not have a woman sitting on the Supreme Court until more than 200 years after our country's founding, and we still have not had a female president. For most of our country's first 200 years, African Americans had no rights at all. It is in this environment that people felt it necessary to take measures to give other people opportunities and positions of power who are not white American males, not because of some left-wing ideology.

Hopper
08-22-2009, 12:27 AM
^There is nothing in the U.S. Constitution which gives whites special privileges or takes away rights from people of other colours. There is no such thing as a "second-class citizen" in the U.S. system. In fact, the U.S. system makes everybody freer than in other countries, which is the reason people of other colours migrate to the U.S.

The white man is not responsible or to blame for everyone else's problems.

I've already shown that the feminist movement is entirely left-wing (like anyone who has read their own literature would need me to tell them) and was from the very beginning. I could prove to you the same about all the other movements which are allegedly addressing inequalities.

xdamage
08-22-2009, 06:59 AM
This is utter nonsense. You are completely ignoring the history of the United States. People who were not white Christian males have been second class citizens, or worse, for most of our country's history. People who were not white-Christian males were kept out of positions of power. Prestigious jobs, such as doctors and lawyers, were only available to white males. Women make up about 50% of our country's population, yet we did not have a woman sitting on the Supreme Court until more than 200 years after our country's founding, and we still have not had a female president. For most of our country's first 200 years, African Americans had no rights at all. It is in this environment that people felt it necessary to take measures to give other people opportunities and positions of power who are not white American males, not because of some left-wing ideology.

Hopper's point requires you look behind the borders of the USA which your point above is still stuck at. What he is saying is that if you look at other parts of the world, (e.g., South America, Asia, the Middle East, Africa) you will find that they each have their own similar dividing of the pie. Example, Try to rise to a position of power as a non Japanese male in Japan, or as a foreigner in the middle east; or as white man in various parts of Africa. It might happen but the odds are greatly against it. The rulers and highest paying positions are given to a small demographics of people of similar backgrounds in those countries that are not white.

By introducing the male/female splitting into the discussion it confuses the matter greatly unless again, you look at human behavior world-wide. Turns out that male/female inequality is not unique to the USA, but sexual inequality is seen across multiple cultures.

In the end you can still be upset that white males have advantages in this country, but it will change your perspective on it dramatically if you look at human behavior world-wide.

bem401
08-24-2009, 08:21 AM
Women make up about 50% of our country's population, yet we did not have a woman sitting on the Supreme Court until more than 200 years after our country's founding, and we still have not had a female president. For most of our country's first 200 years, African Americans had no rights at all. It is in this environment that people felt it necessary to take measures to give other people opportunities and positions of power who are not white American males, not because of some left-wing ideology.

So I guess you are agreeing that preferences are now being given to non-white males, which was my point intially. As far as women on the Supreme Court are concerned, the notion of females as lawyers and judges is a fairly recent thing (last half-century) and this is the pool from which justices are picked. No female president yet? Well, once a qualified woman runs, maybe she'll win. BTW there has only been one Catholic president and there's never been a Jewish president, but you don't hear the Catholics and Jews moaning and groaning about it.

The fact remains that advocating for or against a person because of their sex, race, or religion is pretty simple-minded. Its what got us the current crew in Washington.