View Full Version : Dating a Jewish guy?
Earl_the_Pearl
08-15-2009, 11:58 PM
Why are all these non-Jews preaching about Judaism? It is not Judaism as such but human nature.
anelia
08-16-2009, 11:04 AM
I dated one of my childhood friends (as in, we were 10 and 12 when we met) a couple years ago...didn't know he was Jewish until I started spending the night and he busted out the little hat..yarmulka. I was like WHAAAT. Funny hat! Haha, funny joke. No, really, you're Jewish? How did I not know that - ever? It just never came up! Shocking. I was like, dude! You're for real! You even wear the funny hat! (He made me wear it, and took pictures. It was awesome.) But he asked me why it was such a big deal that he was Jewish? Because of my surprise. I had to explain it wasn't a big deal, but it was startling after 8 years of friendship it just never came up until we hooked up and spent the night together, and put on each other's clothes.
His dad was not Jewish, his mom was. They divorced. I don't know if it was about the Jewishness of it all. But his family was a hoot - I love them and spent the holidays with them - they totally celebrated Christmaskuh because his mom's brothers of course married goyims or whatever and had non-jew kids, and it was just sort of a big beautiful mess where everybody just loved the hell out of each other regardless of words like jew and goy. Just love, and food, and laughing, and funny hats sometimes.
You guys could do well. The fact that you talk, and talk about love, is helpful. You should get hitched, stomp some glass wrapped in a napkin, have some cute halfbreed jewyim babies and call it good. And let his family talk! Show up to Chrismakuh in a yamukuh and say HAPPY CHRISMAKUH! They might just love you and kiss you and welcome you as warmly as my ex-boyfriend's did me.
We are still friends to this day even though our relationship ended, btw. Jewish guys don't necessarily like to do everything their mom says, and they have big hearts I think. As long as we're still generalizing wildly here.
This is my first time in life support....I read all 5 pages of posts before I remembered dating Ray, and his wonderful (protective but not ridiculous) mom are her fabulous kitchen and her fabulous house that she let me stay at all the time, and his great non-jew dad that liked to drive us around listening to Wu-Tang Clan..and all those wonderful things. And I thought that might help you a little bit OP. :) Best of luck.
MAZEL TOV!!!!
Oh -- and while I was dating Ray his mom was dating this neat Japanese dude with two pretty Japanese daughters. Nothing Jewish about him at all. I don't think his mom liked Jewish dudes. So - nothing wrong with a Jewish guy loving a non-Jewish woman. We live in a world where this shit is kosher!
anelia
08-16-2009, 11:22 AM
I think it's worth noting that his mama was Spanish Sephardic jew, heavily influenced by moors, and very cultured. She fed me the most amazing freaking chocolate I have ever tasted in my life, made by spanish monks (not jewish). do not forget about the endless food possibilities when you are meshing cultures. You should never pass up an opportunity to experience NEW AND BEST CHOCOLATE EVER because of something as silly as religion, or thousand year old customs. Chocolate overrides.
jack0177057
08-17-2009, 08:02 AM
Actually, Judaism is very clear on this- there is no one who is more or less Jewish than anyone else. Once you've converted, you're as Jewish as anyone else. Family backround doesn't come into play. Having Jewish ancestry doesn't make you more of a Jew than a convert.
You are right if you are talking about the Jewish Faith only, but what about Jewish ethnicity?... I myself am part of a Spanish "ethnic group" and have dated women of various other ethnic groups... Greek, Italian, Middle Eastearn, Jewish, WASP... etc. Every ethnic group has certain gravitational forces that create pressure on its members to marry within that ethnic group - religion, language, tradition, culture, history, codes of morality, pride, biases, etc.... I am not saying this cannot be overcome, but it is an invisible force that must be understood and treated with sensitivity.
JayATee
08-17-2009, 09:29 AM
Jack, being Jewish is a religion, not an ethnicity. When you fill out a questionaire it doesn't read would you decribe yourself as: caucasian, hispanic, african american, or jewish, does it?
jack0177057
08-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Jack, being Jewish is a religion, not an ethnicity. When you fill out a questionaire it doesn't read would you decribe yourself as: caucasian, hispanic, african american, or jewish, does it?
Yes, agreed that it is a religion, first and foremost... But, you don't think there is an ethnic component to historic (non-convert) Jews? I've had a lot of "Jewish" friends, some who claimed to be atheist or agnostic, but still considered themselves to be "secular Jews". They retained the secular and ethnic elements of their Jewish heritage and ancestry -- food, culture, secular traditions, values system (liberal intellectualism), etc. Just because you cease believing in the Jewish God, does not erase the history of persecution suffered by your ancestors and the traditions and culture which unites you with other historic "Jews"...
According to Wikipedia, which cites to good authorities, "The Jews are an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation. Converts to Judaism have been absorbed into the Jewish people throughout the millennia, and are regarded as having equal status to those born of Jewish parents."
If Jews were just a religion, we (along with our WWII allies) would not have given them their own country (Israel)... That would go against the anti-establishment clause of the US Constitution... and we would then be expected to help provide a country for every religion in the world... (As far as I know, only Roman Catholics have their own tiny country (The Vatican City). The Jews or "Isrealites" were given a country because they were considered to be a displaced and persecuted "people".
In the United States Supreme Court Case of Shaare Tefila Congregation v. Cobb, 481 U.S. 615 (1987), the court held that although Jews today are not thought to be members of a separate race, when § 1982 (an anti-discrimination statute) was passed, Jews and Arabs were regarded as separate race." In fact, only recently have Jews been absorbed into the "White race." Jews were thought to be a separate race based on certain salient traits, such as facial features.
Anyway, "race" doesn't exist... It is an arbitrary classification system... a tool for "us" vs. "them" politics of separation and subjugation... Read this article by the American Anthropological Association: http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm
Just as an example, "Hispanic" and "Latino" used to be a "race", but is no longer considered so by the US 2010 census... A "white" skin Hispanic or Latino is now lumped in with all the other "Whites" (At one time "White" was very exclusive -- only WASPs). "Black" skin Hispanics or Latinos are now lumped in with "Black".
JayATee
08-17-2009, 01:35 PM
There are Jews in every single country all over the world. How can you call it an ethnicity? There isn't one type of Jew.
Don't believe everything you read on wiki.
If Jews were just a religion, we (along with our WWII allies) would not have given them their own country (Israel)... That would go against the anti-establishment clause of the US Constitution... and we would then be expected to help provide a country for every religion in the world... (As far as I know, only Roman Catholics have their own tiny country (The Vatican City). The Jews or "Isrealites" were given a country because they were considered to be a displaced and persecuted "people".
You have your facts crossed. You need to do some real research on this subject. I don't have the time or desire to sit here and write it out for you. And please don't research using wiki.
And Im sorry, I've never heard a hispanic person lump themselves in with anyone. They're proud to be what they are.
jack0177057
08-17-2009, 02:10 PM
Don't believe everything you read on wiki.
I check their sources out before I use them to support any argument. Sometimes their sources are strong and worthy of respect,... sometimes they are not.
You have your facts crossed. You need to do some real research on this subject. I don't have the time or desire to sit here and write it out for you. And please don't research using wiki.
Okay, JayATee,... I'll tell all my "secular Jew" and "nonpracticing Jew" friends to quit calling themselves Jews...
And Im sorry, I've never heard a hispanic person lump themselves in with anyone. They're proud to be what they are.
Of course they don't... The 2010 US Concenses does... Hispanics were projected to become the "majority race" in several states, but they're not a "race" anymore according to the US Census... Coincidence?... I think not...
jack0177057
08-17-2009, 02:20 PM
There are Jews in every single country all over the world.
This is due to migration,... not evangelization. Christians are all over the world because of missionary work and zelous global evangelization... But, Jews don't do this... I've never had a Jew knock on my door to try to convert me to Judaism... I've had a lots of Christian friends try to convert me to their denomination, but not one single Jew friend (and I've had plenty) ever tried to convert me into Judaism...
I would bet that most conversion are due to the person marrying a Jew, having been adopted by a Jew, or being the child of a mixed marriage (non-Jew mother).
JayATee
08-17-2009, 02:45 PM
This is due to migration,... not evangelization. Christians are all over the world because of missionary work and zelous global evangelization... But, Jews don't do this... I've never had a Jew knock on my door to try to convert me to Judaism... I've had a lots of Christian friends try to convert me to their denomination, but not one single Jew friend (and I've had plenty) ever tried to convert me into Judaism...
I would bet that most conversion are due to the person marrying a Jew, having been adopted by a Jew, or being the child of a mixed marriage (non-Jew mother).
Yes, migration over 5,000 yrs ago and counting. ::)
Is a person who is asian and a practicing jew any less asian? No. So what exactly does this have to do with anything? Being a jew is not an ethnicity.
Shy_Guy
08-17-2009, 06:32 PM
What is confusing to many people is that the term "Jew" is applied to both ethnic Jew, and the religion of Judaism.
Just look at the CIA factbook. Israel is 76% Jewish. Ethnicity. Different than religion.
"The mission of the Anti-Defamation League is to stop the defamation of the Jewish people" hmmm, Jewish people.
Just in case you still don't get it, here's the definition of Judaism: "Judaism - One of the first known monotheistic religions, likely dating to between 2000-1500 B.C., Judaism is the native faith of the Jewish people" Judaism=faith Jewish=ethnicity
I'm curious were you get your ideas.
JayATee
08-17-2009, 06:35 PM
^Im curious where you get your definitions.
Judaism = RELIGION not ethnicity.
Shy_Guy
08-17-2009, 06:45 PM
^Im curious where you get your definitions.
Judaism = RELIGION not ethnicity.
CIA factbook.
you merely keep repeating yourself as if just by you saying it, it is fact.
You are right that Judaism = faith, but Jewish can equal ethnicity
The ADL quote came right from their website.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-17-2009, 06:53 PM
And Im sorry, I've never heard a hispanic person lump themselves in with anyone. They're proud to be what they are.
Hispanics are persons of any race borne in South America. A 100% German borne in South America is considered Hispanic.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-17-2009, 06:57 PM
Anyway, "race" doesn't exist... It is an arbitrary classification system... a tool for "us" vs. "them" politics of separation and subjugation... Read this article by the American Anthropological Association:
Cool so affirmative action is a farce and should be eliminated along with American Indians being able to build casinos.
JayATee
08-17-2009, 08:01 PM
CIA factbook.
you merely keep repeating yourself as if just by you saying it, it is fact.
You are right that Judaism = faith, but Jewish can equal ethnicity
The ADL quote came right from their website.
No that's not what Im doing. I've even gone so far as to provide examples. Judaism encompases EVERYONE that is Jewish. It has no face. It is not white, black, asian, indian or any other ethnicity because it is a religion. ANYONE OF ANY RACE CAN BE JEWISH. It is an all encompasing, all inclusive RELIGION.
And apparently, even though I keep "repeating myself" you're still not getting it.::)::)::)
Hispanics are persons of any race borne in South America. A 100% German borne in South America is considered Hispanic.
And?
Shy_Guy
08-17-2009, 08:10 PM
^ That is true,
BUT the confusion, again, is that the term Jewish CAN ALSO merely refer to ethnicity. It IS regarded as a separate ethnicity.
JayATee
08-17-2009, 08:16 PM
^ That is true,
BUT the confusion, again, is that the term Jewish CAN ALSO merely refer to ethnicity. It IS regarded as a separate ethnicity.
Only by ppl who don't know what they're talking about. A religion is not an ethnicity.
Main Entry: re·li·gion
Pronunciation: \ri-ˈli-jən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back — more at rely (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rely)
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious) <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious) faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religious) attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/conscientiousness)
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
— re·li·gion·less adjective
No where does that say ethnicity, or defined by ethnicity or anything else. It's not only in certain parts of the world or certain peoples. No it's nothing to do with any of that, it has to do with faith and worship of god/s.
If you insist on telling me that Jewish can also mean ethnicity then tell me please, what ethnicity and how is it defined? My race: caucasian. My religion: Jewish. And never the twain shall meet.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-17-2009, 11:04 PM
^Im curious where you get your definitions.
Judaism = RELIGION not ethnicity.
Judaism = RELIGION
Jew = PEOPLE
Tay-Sachs disease, the most well known Jewish genetic disease, is an inherited metabolic disorder. One borne a Jew is more likely to inherit the disorder than one who converts.
JayATee
08-17-2009, 11:06 PM
Judaism = RELIGION
Jew = PEOPLE
Tay-Sachs disease, the most well known Jewish genetic disease, is an inherited metabolic disorder. One borne a Jew is more likely to inherit the disorder than one who converts.
Can you read and understand what you're reading? I mean what did I just say?
Ugh. Nevermind. ::) Im done. Goodbye.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-17-2009, 11:26 PM
Can you read and understand what you're reading? I mean what did I just say?
Ugh. Nevermind. ::) Im done. Goodbye.
There is no genetic link with a religion; there are many genetic links among a people.
People who share the same genes are closely related. People that share the same religion are not necessarily closely related.
I know of a way for people that do not share a genetic pool to combine that pool. PM me if interested. :propeller
xdamage
08-18-2009, 11:15 AM
This might? help as to why you are disagreeing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F
"According to the simplest definition used by Jews for self-identification, a person is a Jew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) by birth, or becomes one through religious conversion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conversion). "
"In Jewish law (Halakha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha)), to determine a person's Jewish status (Hebrew: yuhasin) one needs to consider the status of both parents. If both parents are Jewish then their child will also be considered Jewish, and the child takes the status of the father (e.g. as a kohen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen)). If either parent is subject to a disability (eg is a mamzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamzer)) then the child is also subject to that disability. If one of the parents is not Jewish, the rule is that the child takes the status of the mother (Kodashim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodashim) 66b, Shulchan Aruch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulchan_Aruch), EH 4:19). Accordingly, if the mother is Jewish, so is her child; and if she is not Jewish, neither is her child considered Jewish, regardless of the will of the parents, because the test is an objective one. The child can be considered Jewish only by a process of conversion to Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_to_Judaism), and the child is also freed from any disabilities and special status to which the father may have been subject (eg being a mamzer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamzer) or kohen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kohen)) under Jewish law.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F#cite_note-1)"
That is to say you might be confusing that there is a subtle point in this. The concept apparently is (and it is foreign to me but seems clear enough) that it is a religion, but there is a concept here that children (presumably too young to choose a religion?) can be considered Jewish if their mother is.
Perhaps it is something like when we think of our kids as Christian, or even just as Democrats because we, their parents are, even though they are too young to have fully decided for themselves. Does it matter any? It seems too. In fact for Christians it is a difficult problem. Because they have a notion of salvation and if a child is too young to understand the concept dies, are they saved? While not necessarily that specifically, it is a question that is ?hopefully? alike enough that we can understand why it was/is vexing to answer the question, is the child Jewish? without meaning Ethnically.
jack0177057
08-18-2009, 04:08 PM
Cool so affirmative action is a farce and should be eliminated along with American Indians being able to build casinos.
I agree... I think affirmative action based on "race" is ridiculous... A rich and privileged black kid will get preference in college applications over a poor (but brilliant) white kid raised by a single mother in a trailer park, simply because of "race"... Absurd!
I do believe, however, in affirmative action based on socio-economic status and disadvantages... If you are poor and socially disadvantaged, you should get a little help, regardless of your "race", color, ethnicity, etc..
Also, I don't think lower admission standards are the solution. Instead, there should be special programs to get you caught up with the mainstream, like tutoring, accelerated learning programs, charter schools, school vouchers, etc. You put forth the effort to catch up, and then you are on a level playing field with everyone else and the same admission standards apply.
Cyril
08-18-2009, 08:11 PM
Cool so affirmative action is a farce and should be eliminated along with American Indians being able to build casinos.
I learned through my interaction with American Indians that you have to have a certificate called CDIB (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood or something like that) to be considered an American Indian.
On a separate note:
I am delighted that some of you see the point I was trying to make initially.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-18-2009, 11:09 PM
I learned through my interaction with American Indians that you have to have a certificate called CDIB (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood or something like that) to be considered an American Indian.
So the government says there is such a thing as race. OK even if race does not exist genetic similarities do. There is no genetic component in religion.
Earl_the_Pearl
08-19-2009, 01:01 AM
Hispanics are persons of any race borne in South America. A 100% German borne in South America is considered Hispanic.
And?
Hispanic is not a race as there is no genetic similarity between them. People borne Jews are a race as there is a genetic similarity between them even if they are religiously Buddhists.
I went to the 40th Woodstock anniversary concert in Betel NY. I passed by many summer camps.
"Brief history of the "Catskill Mountains" also know as the Borscht Belt.
... During the first part of the 20th century, many ethnic groups (Germans, Czechs, Jews, etc) established summer resorts..."
Driving by the summer camps the family (genetic link) was obvious.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/earlcamembert/summercamp.jpg
The Woodstock nation members have a similar look, old white hippies, but there is no genetic (family) resemblance.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/earlcamembert/120105YA25_prv.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/earlcamembert/woodst1.jpg
xdamage
08-19-2009, 06:04 AM
So the government says there is such a thing as race. OK even if race does not exist genetic similarities do.
I'm old enough (gads) to remember when AA became a hot matter in California. Our mindset at the time was really quite simple. The simplified version is:
Caucasians (people with white skin, didn't matter from where their ancestors came, nobody cared if you meant from Russia, Norway, or anywhere else --- just did you look white?).
Black
Hispanic (mostly meaning from Mexico or further south)
And then various others like Asian, but in small numbers, and Asian families seemed to be doing well in terms of jobs.
That simplification really covers the general mindset of the common person at the time. The questioners of the times reflect that thinking. If you were Black or Hispanic, chances are that business in the area where you lived had hired a disproportionately high percentage of Caucasians. That is pretty much the key point the questioners were trying to obtain statistics on.
There is no genetic component in religion.
See to me people make religions, so they can pretty much define it (and redefine it) however they want. We don't have to agree but they are completely capable of creating any arbitrary complexity or special conditions including any combination of genetic and belief oriented lineage. You could argue that it seems logically inconsistent, but there is absolutely nothing preventing humans from creating religions in which being one of the religious is achieved by way of lineage or faith or some combination of.
jack0177057
08-19-2009, 01:32 PM
See to me people make religions, so they can pretty much define it (and redefine it) however they want. We don't have to agree but they are completely capable of creating any arbitrary complexity or special conditions including any combination of genetic and belief oriented lineage. You could argue that it seems logically inconsistent, but there is absolutely nothing preventing humans from creating religions in which being one of the religious is achieved by way of lineage or faith or some combination of.
This is a good point... Jews and Christians are good examples of this. The Jews mostly keep their faith to themselves and the Christians want to shout it out on the rooftops and convert everybody.
In the traditional Jewish faith, lineage is very important, and even the New Testament talks about Jesus Christ's lineage tracing it to King David... According to the Bible, the Israelites were the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob. They were divided into twelve tribes, each descended from one of twelve sons or grandsons of Jacob. His descendants are called the House of Jacob, the Children of Israel, the People of Israel, or the Israelites.
I am not sure whether all Israelites are Jews, but in any case, lineage and family history is very important to Jews. They are mostly a homogenious group that does not evangelize or try to convert outside people into their faith - therefore, they have preserved their homogenaiety. They consider themselves to be God's "chosen people" by virtue of their history, tradition and faith. They do have some converts, but, this is probably due to those people marrying Jews.
In contrast, the Christians were probably the first multi-cultural, multi-nationality and multi-"race" religion. Jesus Christ and the first disciples were Jews, but the Christians were taught early on to spread the "Good News" throughout the world... to every people, even to the "savage" tribesmen in Africa and America.
So, when we talk about the Christian faith, we are only talking about faith because Chritianity contains people of all cultures and nationalities and the only overlapping feature is their Christian faith. But, when we talk about the Jewish faith, even though anyone can convert to Judaism, I think there is a strong bond between the Jews and Israelites -- the descendants from one of twelve sons or grandsons of Jacob. In this case, it is fair to say that they (a majority) form an ethnic or cultural group.
Elvia
08-19-2009, 01:43 PM
In the traditional Jewish faith, lineage is very important, and even the New Testament talks about Jesus Christ's lineage tracing it to King David...
And who is King David descended from? ruth. A convert.
jack0177057
08-19-2009, 02:28 PM
^^^ That's very interesting...
JayATee
08-19-2009, 03:30 PM
This is a good point... Jews and Christians are good examples of this. The Jews mostly keep their faith to themselves and the Christians want to shout it out on the rooftops and convert everybody.
In the traditional Jewish faith, lineage is very important, and even the New Testament talks about Jesus Christ's lineage tracing it to King David... According to the Bible, the Israelites were the descendants of the Biblical patriarch Jacob. They were divided into twelve tribes, each descended from one of twelve sons or grandsons of Jacob. His descendants are called the House of Jacob, the Children of Israel, the People of Israel, or the Israelites.
I am not sure whether all Israelites are Jews, but in any case, lineage and family history is very important to Jews. They are mostly a homogenious group that does not evangelize or try to convert outside people into their faith - therefore, they have preserved their homogenaiety. They consider themselves to be God's "chosen people" by virtue of their history, tradition and faith. They do have some converts, but, this is probably due to those people marrying Jews.
In contrast, the Christians were probably the first multi-cultural, multi-nationality and multi-"race" religion. Jesus Christ and the first disciples were Jews, but the Christians were taught early on to spread the "Good News" throughout the world... to every people, even to the "savage" tribesmen in Africa and America.
So, when we talk about the Christian faith, we are only talking about faith because Chritianity contains people of all cultures and nationalities and the only overlapping feature is their Christian faith. But, when we talk about the Jewish faith, even though anyone can convert to Judaism, I think there is a strong bond between the Jews and Israelites -- the descendants from one of twelve sons or grandsons of Jacob. In this case, it is fair to say that they (a majority) form an ethnic or cultural group.
I think you're taking things a bit out of context. Have you ever read the old testament? Or are you just going off what the new one says about the old?
jack0177057
08-19-2009, 05:11 PM
I think you're taking things a bit out of context. Have you ever read the old testament? Or are you just going off what the new one says about the old?
I found a good source of information (not Wikipedia):
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/tribes.html
The Jewish Virtual Library claims to be "the most comprehensive online Jewish encyclopedia in the world, covering everything from anti-Semitism to Zionism." It is maintained by the AMERICAN-ISRAELI COOPERATIVE ENTERPRISE (AICE).
jack0177057
08-19-2009, 05:27 PM
What is very interesting is how this issue has played out in Israel.
In 1950, the Law of Return was passed in Israel stating that every Jew has the right to immigrate to Israel, and granting automatic citizenship and benefits to any Jew who makes aliyah. Jewish immigrants receive better benefits than non-Jewish immigrants, including guaranteed housing, ulpan (Hebrew language study), full tuition for graduate degrees, and other benefits including discounts on major purchases, such as cars and appliances. The absorption process is more arduous for non-Jews and may take many years, during which they might not have health insurance and other government services.
Three famous cases tested the Law of Return and a Jew’s right to immediate citizenship.
One case occurred after a new regulation was adopted stating that individuals registered as Jews for the "nationality" and "religion" section of their identity cards must be Jews according to halacha and they must not practice another religion. The Shalit case challenged this new ruling. Benjamin Shalit married a non-Jewish Scottish woman. Since he was an Israeli, she and their children automatically received Israeli citizenship. The two considered themselves atheists, but part of a Jewish nation and wanted their children’s identity cards to state Jewish for the nationality designation and to remain blank for religion. The Ministry of Interior wanted to keep both designations blank, so the case was appealed to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court ruled in the Shalits’ favor.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html
Shy_Guy
08-19-2009, 08:33 PM
And who is King David descended from? ruth. A convert.
King David's Jewish descent has nothing to do with Ruth:
Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.
from www.jewfaq.org
JayATee:
Please note that the confusion is that, unfortunately, we use the same WORD to describe different things. No one is trying to tell you you aren't Jewish because of your ethnic background, or that somehow you are no longer Caucasian. It is merely a byproduct of the way words develop. You are correct, a Caucasian convert to Judaism is Jewish. This is a separate, but linguistically identical, designation to being Jewish, ethnicity.
Cyril
08-19-2009, 08:36 PM
King David's Jewish decent has nothing to do with Ruth:
Several people have written to me asking about King David: was he a Jew, given that one of his female ancestors, Ruth, was not a Jew? This conclusion is based on two faulty premises: first of all, Ruth was a Jew, and even if she wasn't, that would not affect David's status as a Jew. Ruth converted to Judaism before marrying Boaz and bearing Obed. See Ruth 1:16, where Ruth states her intention to convert. After Ruth converted, she was a Jew, and all of her children born after the conversion were Jewish as well. But even if Ruth were not Jewish at the time Obed was born, that would not affect King David's status as a Jew, because Ruth is an ancestor of David's father, not of David's mother, and David's Jewish status is determined by his mother.
from
Excellent post. I see tremendous potential in you.
SteveSmith
08-19-2009, 09:27 PM
How can someone be considered half Jewish or a quarter Jewish when you can't be considered half Catholic or a quarter Baptist? Someone can be half Jewish and half French, but they can't be half Catholic and half French. Being Jewish sounds like an ethnicity/race to me.
Cyril
08-19-2009, 09:33 PM
That is correct. I am glad to see people are seeing the point.
JayATee
08-20-2009, 03:05 AM
JayATee:
Please note that the confusion is that, unfortunately, we use the same WORD to describe different things. No one is trying to tell you you aren't Jewish because of your ethnic background, or that somehow you are no longer Caucasian. It is merely a byproduct of the way words develop. You are correct, a Caucasian convert to Judaism is Jewish. This is a separate, but linguistically identical, designation to being Jewish, ethnicity.
LoL. I wasn't concerned about my Jewishness. You're not understanding what I'm saying and Im done trying. ::)
Shy_Guy
08-20-2009, 12:12 PM
being Jewish is a religion, not an ethnicity.
Maybe I'm just dense, but it seems like you're trying to say being Jewish is only a religion, and NOT an ethnicity?
Please understand: Yes, it is a religion
YES IT IS A SEPARATE ETHNICITY!!!!!!!!! (Same word, different meaning. You can be one and not the other, the other and not the one, neither, or both.)
here's the link for Jewish genetic diseases:
http://www.mazornet.com/genetics/ml4.htm
here's the link where you can see the ETHNIC makeup of Israel:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html
And yes, it ALSO lists Jewish under "Religions," because *gasp* it is the same word used to describe a religion, and an ethnicity.
Seriously, if you mean something other than that the word "Jew" CANNOT EVER be applied to a ethnic / genetic lineage, PLEASE use small words so I can understand. Because, honestly, If you you're not trying to say being Jewish CANNOT be an ethnic designation, I am truly without comprehension as to what you're saying.
jack0177057
08-20-2009, 01:10 PM
The debate on the meaning of "Jew" is very interesting, but is really besides the point (and making people upset).
We all agree on one thing: the OP can convert to Judaism and become a member of the Jewish faith, if that is what she wants to do.
Elvia
08-20-2009, 01:19 PM
I have to object to this idea that ethnic heritage is a so important to Jews. It's really not. Once you're a part of the Jewish community, you're as much a part of it as everyone else. Jews aren't even supposed to discuss who is or isn't a convert.
It's pretty irksome to hear non-Jews arguing about what is or isn't important to Jews. If you really want to know, go ask a rabbi instead of standing around speculating.
jack0177057
08-20-2009, 02:29 PM
I have to object to this idea that ethnic heritage is a so important to Jews. It's really not. Once you're a part of the Jewish community, you're as much a part of it as everyone else. Jews aren't even supposed to discuss who is or isn't a convert.
You can value your heritage and be accepting of newcomers at the same time. It doesn't follow from the argument that - Jews accept converts as everyone else - that, therefore - their ethnic heritage is not important.
Maybe, this is a little like being "American"... Once you become a naturalized U.S. citizen, you are supposed to be just like any other citizen... But, there are those US Citizens who recently became such and there are those that can trace their lineage to the Mayflower or whose descendants fought for independence against Great Brittain or in the Civil War, WWI, WWII, etc...
Obviously, those US Citizens whose descendants fought for independence and freedoms take special pride in this and I'm sure that their heritage is very important to them, yet, they hold no superior legal status to those who were sworn in as naturalized US Citizens yesterday.
"Heritage" is important to everybody, specially when you can place your lineage in a significant historical context... The "heritage" of the Jews is important... If it wasn't, they wouldn't have museums dedicated to the Holocaust and other significant historical Jewish events. If you are a Jew and your family name appears somewhere in the Holocause museum, this "heritage" is important to you and your family.
One Jewish girl I knew (and casually dated) told me that she would only marry a Jew, because only a Jew knew what it was like to be the descendant of Holocaust victims... She wasn't stuck up about her heritage at all, and wasn't even a "practicing" Jew... Yet, that was how she felt - but, she is the only Jew I've come acrossed with that conviction, and we remain great friends.
Elvia
08-20-2009, 06:48 PM
I think you're confusing "ethnic heritage" with "history."
A Jew wouldn't "take pride" in coming from a long line of Jews (as opposed to a convert, or someone who's mother was a convert) because Judaism strongly discourages even acknowledging such differences. Maybe you would just have to be a member of the community to understand why your reasoning doesn't translate to reality in this case. I wouldn't want to marry a non-Jew either, but whoever I did marry, it would have nothing to do with his family background. All Jews are considered equally connected to Jewish history.
jack0177057
08-20-2009, 08:26 PM
A Jew wouldn't "take pride" in coming from a long line of Jews (as opposed to a convert, or someone who's mother was a convert) because Judaism strongly discourages even acknowledging such differences. Maybe you would just have to be a member of the community to understand why your reasoning doesn't translate to reality in this case. I wouldn't want to marry a non-Jew either, but whoever I did marry, it would have nothing to do with his family background. All Jews are considered equally connected to Jewish history.
I can see this being the case with the Jewish faith, but maybe a little less so with the nation of Israel (the nationality, culture, ethnic group, etc.)... But, I'll withdraw my argument and accept what you say, as you obviously have more personal knowledge.
When my (Jewish?) friends say they are "non-practicing" or "secular" "Jews" because they don't adhere to the doctrines and theology of the Jewish faith, are they still Jewish?
Why wouldn't you marry a non-Jew, if your children would be Jews regardless? Why must your husband also be a Jew? (I'm not being judgmental with this question, just curious.)
Cyril
08-20-2009, 10:21 PM
Is the word "Jew" politically correct? I have noticed lots of people are hesitant about using the word "Jew". They like to say "Jewish Man/Woman". I have always used the word "Jew" and never thought that it was not kosher (politically of course).
JayATee
08-21-2009, 01:43 AM
I can see this being the case with the Jewish faith,
Ugh, here we go again. ::) There is no difference!!!!!
vmurphy252
08-21-2009, 06:25 AM
I have always used the word "Jew" and never thought that it was not kosher (politically of course).
Cyril made a funny!
jack0177057
08-21-2009, 08:27 AM
Ugh, here we go again. ::) There is no difference!!!!!
Okay, okay... don't get mad... I'll accept what you say... But, I'm just reporting what I found from good sources:
The people who write for the Jewish Virtual Library ("the most comprehensive online Jewish encyclopedia in the world") say that "Judaism is considered to be both a religion and a nation/culture"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/whojew1.html)
Also, in the Isreal ID card, you can list "Jew" for the "nationality" and/or "religion" section. (I mentioned an actual case on this issue in my previous post.)
I'm just reporting this, they could both be wrong... I have no vested interest in this issue one way or another, and don't want to upset anybody...
Peace on Earth... [Jack makes a peace sign with his fingers.]
Cyril
08-21-2009, 01:16 PM
Cyril made a funny!
Dude, this serious discussion is an attempt to find out the differences between race and religion. This is not a humor thread. Your insincerity is truly regrettable.
Lemonz
08-21-2009, 02:11 PM
Dude, this serious discussion is an attempt to find out the differences between race and religion. This is not a humor thread. Your insincerity is truly regrettable.
I never meant this thread to become a debate that has nothing to do with my original post. Thanks to those who helped and provided interesting/helpful information, though!