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audrey_k
08-30-2009, 07:53 PM
I am pretty much of the opinion, you're in my club, I'm gonna hustle you no matter what color your skin is... but:

I always approach Asians and Caucasians first because I find I am the most popular with them (especially Asians). However I've had problems with both these ethnic groups as far as being disrespected and not getting paid. But I find that they're the easiest to hustle and I usually have more in common with them and more chemistry conversation wise, so they're the most enjoyable customers for me.

I approach Africans Americans next. I'm really hit and miss with them; some of my best customers have been African American but I've also been laughed at and booed by them on stage. I either get along with them super well, or they hate me. Payment wise its also hit and miss... some argued with me over paying for all the dances and others hooked me up in tips. I will however NEVER approach a couple or group of African Americans if there is a woman there.

I approach Hispanics if there's no one else to go to or they've been eyeing me. A good portion of the ones that come to my club do not speak English and are very broke and grabby. I get propositioned by them a lot, often before they've even agreed to a dance, and when I do get dances its usually 2-4-1s with no tip. They almost never buy me drinks and just want me to sit with them for free.

Indians and Middle-Easterners are the only customers I really avoid. I find they are incredibly rude to me most of the time and that's pretty much the main reason. In dances they're also pretty grabby. But I have one great great customer who is very sweet to me and spends a ton of money who is Indian, so obviously there are exceptions.

It's not really about racism to me, I've dated guys of all races and I don't have the same conceptions OTC. But from a hustling and money making stand point that's how it is.

Djoser
08-30-2009, 08:56 PM
I am pretty much of the opinion, you're in my club, I'm gonna hustle you no matter what color your skin is... but [Audrey K explains the policies she has found made her the most money over an extended period of time in the business]

It's not really about racism to me, I've dated guys of all races and I don't have the same conceptions OTC. But from a hustling and money making stand point that's how it is.

Very well put.


I don't think there is anything wrong with dancers going for a certain 'type' of guy first, whether it be based on clothing, grooming, race, conversational ability, whatthehellever.

We are talking about women trying to make money in a high stress environment with a bunch of drunk horny guys, not a fucking wine and cheese party with a bunch of social activists watching how you act around that strangely dressed man with the funny accent.

And we are talking about hiring policies in clubs in general, all over the USA. Obviously, as one member pointed out, there are racist motherfuckers in control of certain clubs in a wide variety of locations, and their hiring policies often suck. And they get away with it.

And of course only a serious bigot will fail to be aware that there are always exceptions to every general rule, especially where dress and stylistic comportment are concerned. So talking about that one thug of whatever race that likes Metallica and spent a bunch of money doesn't change the fact that thugs of all races don't generally spend nearly as much money and are very frequently a pain in the ass in most clubs. Every DJ I have ever talked to in person or on this forum, and by far the majority of dancers, agrees on this point emphatically. (Now watch a DJ will come on here and tell me I am full of shit ;D). Maybe in Miami it's different, but I don't want to work there.

And sure as shit there are untold thousands of older, conservatively dressed white guys who are guilty of literal sexual assault, and rude, obnoxious, insulting behavior in the clubs.

As far as working with black dancers, this has been my experience, and is not meant to be a scientific study for publication in an academic journal:

I have worked with around 2,000 dancers total. Of that number about 300-400 were black. Less than 20 wanted any kind of rock or techno/dance music at all, ever, no matter what the clientele or management wanted to hear. Less than 20 were really, really good tippers (not the same 20 or so, either!). The ratios have been much different with dancers of all other ethnic origins--except maybe the dancers from England I have worked with, who tend to be the worst tippers of all, but there have only been about ten of them to go by. This is of course only my experience, but I suspect it isn't unusual.

This does NOT mean I no longer ask the black dancers what they want to hear when they go onstage, or fail to accommodate them in their musical choices--so long as it doesn't conflict with the music policy determined by the owner. Only an idiot will fail to try to please a new dancer, or one he or she has to deal with on a regular basis who tips the minimum requirement without a hassle.

The truth of the matter is--and this might surprise people who might for whatever reason take offense to this post--the black dancers tend to like me, again for whatever reason I don't know. Possibly partly because I know what songs to play that they will like without pissing off the owners and driving customers out the door.

ETA--by far the worst 'type' of dancer to deal with from my experience has been the 'white trash' crackhead. There were a lot of those in Daytona, especially in that one really rough club.

Donovan28
08-30-2009, 09:57 PM
Well, where I live there is a specific white club, Babydoll's. They play country music every third song, and classic rock every sixth. Absolutely no hip hop or rap! They try to make it as non urban as possible, but it's a mixture of white men, and various blue collar ethnicities. It's the least expensive cover, so it gets busy with a diverse demographic.

That's EXACTLY the club I was talking about in the OP. Thanks, JD.

J.D.
08-30-2009, 10:46 PM
I feel like a more politically correct term would be urban and non urban clubs. At least where I am from, the "black" or "urban" clubs are not so much "black" anymore. It's more of an equal mix of black/mexican/arab/white, and they play all hip hop and rap.

When I'm at work I approach customers based on their overall demeanor, not race.

pinkkitten
08-30-2009, 11:00 PM
i will approach customers of any race or ethnicity, but i will avoid youngish guys, especially in groups, of any race or ethnicity as well. yes, i do notice that some customers will be more likely to find me attractive than others but i will at least try.
i have noticed that the clubs or managers themselves do seem to use their own preferences when deciding who to hire. it does upset me seeing that in one particular club a woman who is black or white has to be in great shape, totally done up hair, nail, makeup, etc to get hired while he will hire pretty much any asian or hispanic woman that applies. he has told me himself that if he was the manager doing the hiring when i applied he wold not have hired me (im white) or also a top-earning black dancer. while some of it does seem to coincide with local customer preferences, i do think the discrepancy in the hiring practices is a little fucked up.

hot4ablackchick
08-30-2009, 11:03 PM
As far as working with black dancers, this has been my experience, and is not meant to be a scientific study for publication in an academic journal:

I have worked with around 2,000 dancers total. Of that number about 300-400 were black. Less than 20 wanted any kind of rock or techno/dance music at all, ever, no matter what the clientele or management wanted to hear. Less than 20 were really, really good tippers (not the same 20 or so, either!). The ratios have been much different with dancers of all other ethnic origins--except maybe the dancers from England I have worked with, who tend to be the worst tippers of all, but there have only been about ten of them to go by. This is of course only my experience, but I suspect it isn't unusual.

This does NOT mean I no longer ask the black dancers what they want to hear when they go onstage, or fail to accommodate them in their musical choices--so long as it doesn't conflict with the music policy determined by the owner. Only an idiot will fail to try to please a new dancer, or one he or she has to deal with on a regular basis who tips the minimum requirement without a hassle.

The truth of the matter is--and this might surprise people who might for whatever reason take offense to this post--the black dancers tend to like me, again for whatever reason I don't know. Possibly partly because I know what songs to play that they will like without pissing off the owners and driving customers out the door.

ETA--by far the worst 'type' of dancer to deal with from my experience has been the 'white trash' crackhead. There were a lot of those in Daytona, especially in that one really rough club.

Djoser I am one of the rare black dancers who has always danced to rock. I don't dance to any rap/r&b whatsoever and I do not play what I call half ass rock like Kid Rock, Linkin Park, and Limp Bizkit. I don't listen to rap/r&b in "real life" either so I'm not familiar with any of the new rappers/singers. Its not because of club rules either, at my club (which is mostly white) we can dance to whatever we want. I typically dance to TOOL, Deftones, From Autumn to Ashes, Placebo, Depeche Mode, Misnistry, Killswitch Engage, and occassionally older rock like Journey, Metallica, Pantera, Ozzy, and ZZ Top. Anyway it is extremely hard for me to dance to rap/r&b. Even with songs I kind of like, I just can't get into and feel really stupid up there. Its hard to get into the song when just can't get into it and don't dance to music with that kind of beat. I know that dancers should be able to dance to anything, but dancing to rap/r&b kills me. The DJ has to literally beg me to dance to some sort of rap/r&b when we happen to have a black crowd or lots of blacks in the tiprail. It doesn't happen often but I typically don't change my music except for 5-6 times when there were big spenders who were only tipping girls dancing to rap/r&b. One day I thought, maybe the girls that dance to rap/r&b feel the same way about their music that I feel about mine, so I can understand their frustration when clubs completely ban rap/r&b. Its definetely not your fault at all and I can understand somewhat why clubs do it. I've seen girls act like jackasses to DJ's, so why some girls would become disrespectful to you is beyond me, I can just understand their annoyance at the same time. It definetely won't kill the customer base to play a little bit of rap/r&b. I had an older (white)guy tell me that I was dancing to 'souless music' when I was onstage and ask why I didn't dance to Alisha Keys or something. Even though I was happy, smiling, and obviously knew the song I was dancing to, that was very upbeat, it just happened to be rock. I get "why are you dancing to that? You would look waaayyyy more sexy dancing to" - insert rap r&b song here. I get this ALL the time.

The best club (as far as music goes) was one that limited the rap/r&b. Not outright ban it, but only played 2-4 rap or r&b songs an hour at the most. They had to move some girls around to accommadate this, so you had to be 'on lookout' and really pay attention to when you were up for stage until all the girls were in because they would have to move the rotation a bit, but it kept everyone happy for the most part.

hot4ablackchick
08-31-2009, 12:15 AM
^^^
Yes, if I was a tolerant person I would just ignore the dozen times I've had to have a young black guy thrown out of the club because he refused to leave me alone. I would just tolerate him walking up to me when I'm talking to a paying customer and tell the customer not to buy dances from this "greedy bitch".

Maybe I'd just go ahead and give them the free dances they want or I should really be tolerant and go ahead and let them pimp me out because hey, I'm there to make everybody feel equal and happy not to make money for my bills, right?

You want to call me ignorant go for it. I already said I'll approach people who are acting like CUSTOMERS but a jackass white guy will leave me alone when I tell him to go fuck himself while a jackass black guy will follow me around and do everything in his power to destroy my night until I have him thrown out. I will not waste my time on it, if that offends you then so be it.

Since I don't know you and I have never been to your club or Vegas? in general, I believe is where you work, then I will take back my ignorant mofo comment and apologize to you and anyone else that was offended by the comment. It was not directed at anyone in specific, but I do apologize. Anyway, I'm not going to lie. The thought that every single black guy that comes to your club is rude and follows you around all night just sounds absolutely incredibly ridiculous. And nobody said anything about letting someone disrespect you or whatever. That is not what I meant by tolerant. I was talking about dancers that flat out don't ask guys of a certain race for a dance. When someone is generalizing a whole group of people, then it is going to get at you, whether we are talking the SC patrons or not. I'm going to get offended whether you or anyone else is trying to or not. That is just me. I try not to stereotype/generalize because it is constantly happening to me. Whenever I see myself thinking 'Oh gawd there are a bunch of blacks/asians coming in and I'm not gonna sell to them, they are going to waste my time,' I remind myself not to knock them till I've tried them, and of the occassions where I have been wrong.

In my own experience (and I am not directing this at you Marvel, I don't know you)a lot of dancers seem overstate things with words like "they always," even though that is not the case. They seem to remember when a race of people that is not of their own and/or who they typically sell to, is rude and disrespectful. Girls at my club are always saying "Oh so and so are always grabby/rude/cheap whatever" One dancer who I've worked with forever said that black guys were always too handsy with her and the Indian customers sucked and were cheap and rude. I knew for a firsthand fact that this was not true as I knew a few Indian (as in from India) men (one in particular) who paid her very well and not handsy at all. I told her really? What about the black guy who got double dances from us last week? Not handsy at all. What about the black guy (who looked ghetto as hell, btw) who got 5 dances from you 2 weeks ago, who you said was super nice and sat on his hands? What about the Indian man who spent several hundred dollars and was a great guy? How can you say "always" when that is clearly not the case. I hear this all the time and I know that I cannot possibly get the only blacks/indians who are nice. Have I ever gotten a black/latino/indian/ man who was an utterly complete asshole, hell fucking yes. Does it seem like every black/latino/indian man that comes through the door is fuckwad, hell yes. Are there also times where every white guy I dance with is either trying to take me home, fuck me for money, and is a grabby licky asshole on the couch? Hell fucking yes. Just 2-3 weeks ago, every single guy was trying to grab my boobs, and/or lick me on the couch, after I told them no. Every single one tried one or the other. Every single one of those guys was white. What I'm saying is there seem to be times where every race of people can be written off as "not worth it" based on some bad experiences. If I said "every white I've danced for this week was an ass and I'm not going to dance for them," I would make no money. I'm not trying to say white guys are bad custys (they are not), I LOVE white men, my husband is white. I take the term "always" with a grain of salt when it comes to race matters. That is my experience.

Djoser
08-31-2009, 01:51 AM
Carmen, you would be welcome at my club anytime!

But one thing bothers me--your name! Not Carmen, I have always loved that name since when I was a little boy I fell madly in love with the lead character in the opera Carmen.

But why don't you call yourself Carmen, or maybe something else instead of 'Hot4ablackchick'?? Isn't that almost the same as implicitly accepting the 'fact' (not a fact at all as we have seen) that black chicks aren't usually as hot?

I'm really not meaning to mess with you at all, I'm just being honest, I have wondered about this before. Your avatar is tiny but you do indeed appear to be pretty Fing hot, lol! whether you are black or not shouldn't have anything to do with it, I would think.

You don't have to change your name (;D), it's not a big deal, it just made me wonder is all.

And yeah it's weird that guys would say you need to dance to soul or R & B. That's a bit fucked up IMO.

I do try like hell to play what the dancers like if at all humanly possible, without getting fired lol. Even if I think the crowd would rather hear AC/DC, if the dancer wants R & B or rap I'll play something like Ciara or Lil Kim and pass on the 50cent and hardcore rap. Then play the fucking AC/DC for the next rock girl to go up instead.

Except that one Race Week, I don't think I have ever in ten years played rock (or techno) for a girl that wants R & B, unless maybe she has stiffed me more than twice in which case if I am in a really bad mood she'll get whatever I want haha. But even then you are sort of cutting your own throat since if the dancer is obviously pissed off and yelling from the stage, the customers will not be impressed! There's a fine line between not taking shit from a dancer who isn't tipping you and fucking up the entire show just to get revenge, never a good idea.


I have to say this thread has actually gone a lot more smoothly than I thought it would. I think people need to be honest instead of PC all the fucking time, and try to understand each other instead of venting frustration on the wrong person (maybe being honest), or pretending to love everyone all the time no matter what which maybe Superman could do, but I doubt it.

God knows the black women of this country probably have it tougher than any other group, except maybe the Indians who were basically wiped off the Northern American continent by the White man--but even than that was in the past (I admit i don't know much about the plight of Native Americans now).

Again being honest instead of PC it seems to me that black men so often tend to disrespect women of their own race in particular, which pisses me off. I also think it's fucking weird the way black men will specifically target white women for conquest, as if they need to prove something. But maybe it's partly because they only see white women in Playboy, etc. When was the last time you saw a black Playmate?? And why when interracial couples are portrayed in the media it is always, always a white woman with a black guy? Never, hardly ever a black woman with a white guy?? WTF is wrong with a white man and a black woman liking each other?

Getting back to the clubs though--it takes a lot of guts to get on a stage at all, much less dance, much less take your clothes off, much less deal with all the white, black, brown and yellow assholes trying to shove fingers up your ass. Then to have to deal with racist managers, well yeah that would suck.

BTW I saw Jenna tonight when I stopped in my club, she is the beautiful black dancer I mentioned in my first reply (I showed her what I wrote about her being a living doll here the next night and called her that on the mike a couple times). I told her she was henceforth to be known as 'The Living Doll'. She likes it...

miabella
08-31-2009, 02:07 AM
re: racism in the strip club.

some black customers would be irate that i was slamming it onstage to front242 or nirvana, but what did i care, since white guys were throwing 5s down?

alternatively, black and white guys would be mad i was dancing to spanish music, but the mexicans and guatemalans were throwing 5s down, so i didn't give a damn.

i always took the crowd into account even though i never compromised my music choices (i don't like rap/r&b unless it has a heavy guitar component, like funk or something), so girls would be all 'girl you will not make money' and then be shocked at my stage littered in cash because i considered the crowd before going up.

the funny thing was that white guys who completely refused to spend on dances would throw down for my stages given my music choices. go figure.

Djoser
08-31-2009, 02:18 AM
It is weird how guys will tip a lot more if they like the music.

I never cared way back when I was a customer, or now on my nights off. I watch the woman and if she looks good and is putting on a show she gets the money, whether she is dancing to Frank Sinatra or KMFDM or Gorilla Zoe (my current favorite rap BTW, I fucking love his stuff).

Rayna Skye
08-31-2009, 03:28 AM
I'll tell you this Pt's wouldn't hire me, but they hired this crack head looking bitch, White, fake boobs, bad blonde hair. Everybody who saw this girl said she looked like a crack head, but they hired that over me. Also I worked with her at another club, and a guy told his friend he wouldn't tip me cause I'll buy drugs with the money, but he tipped her. Riiiiight, I don't even drink, everyone knows it, but I'm gonna buy drugs with the money.

Also I was the only black girl working at this one club, and this dude used to tip everyone but me. Like he would wait till I passed by to make sure that I saw him tip the other girls. The only reason that didn't bother me was he was only giving them one dollar.

BuxomBeauty
08-31-2009, 04:03 AM
In my own experience .... a lot of dancers seem overstate things with words like "they always," even though that is not the case. They seem to remember when a race of people that is not of their own and/or who they typically sell to, is rude and disrespectful.That is an excellent point and something I've often thought about myself. I try not to do this, because I know there are exceptions to everything and really, people are all just people at the core. This is why I don't avoid any guys who give a definite signal of interest. I think more girls would be better off if they recognized this point and made an effort to keep their judgment in perspective when making notes of which customer types are usually good or not. I do believe that often it's not necessarily that "most (insert race or culture here) men are cheap" but that we tend to notice more when it's someone of a different group than our own.

Faye449
08-31-2009, 05:06 AM
The majority of eastern european guys I have come across ITC seem to have a 'grey area' between strip clubs and brothels so they aren't my first choice of client for this reason but I'll sometimes still give it a go if its not that busy. I've not worked in eatern europe so I have no idea if the SC's/Brothels cross over or not.

I have also found the majority of guys who fancy themselves as Gangsta's (and there are some in every race/colour) to have an 'I'm too good to be in here' attitude so I don't really bother with them.

hot4ablackchick
08-31-2009, 05:52 AM
Djoser,

Thank you! You seem to be an awesome DJ and if I was ever in the Key West area I would love to at least visit. I've also found you on Myspace and sent you a Friend Request. I assure you there are much larger pics of me on my page! Well anyway to answer your question, I just call myself hot4ablackchick out of sheer fun. Its really a running joke at my club, because I hear it all the time from customers. Customers tell me all the time that I am "Hot for a black chick" and that I am "way too beautiful to ONLY be black" as if you have to biracial to possibly be an attractive black woman. So I say it out fun and just have 'owned the phrase' so to speak. It used to piss me off but now I have to hold back laughter whenever a custy says it. In a gentle way I remind them that what they just said is offensive and silly. I keep it light and don't let it spoil a sell now. Now if I could only find a way to deal with the guys who say "wow you don't SOUND black," or "Theres not any slang in your voice" Grrrrrrr....

I don't know why you don't see black women/white men together. Its definetely more taboo than white girls/black men. I guess I am taboo because my hubby is white! I've met several (well most actually) who say they would not even consider dating a white man. White men seem to think all black women do not like them, and that they don't stand a chance as far as sex and dating goes. I have only been approached OTC by white men on a few occassions. 90% of those white men that did approach me OTC, were so ghetto they made Lil' John seem like Bryant Gumble.

Most of the black guys that come in my club go for the white girls or the thick, big booty girls. I am not thick at all, I have NO ass, and I have big fake implants. I'm generally not their type. They will usually take a thick girl over me, even if they are really ugly and have a bad body.

Oh and the playmate of the year this year was a black girl. Her name is Ida Ljungqvist. She is foriegn, and she is VERY beautiful. I believe this is their second pmoy who was black. I've been a playboy subscriber for years and they do have black playmates from time to time. Not a lot, but at least one every year. Its coming along at least. I would still like to see more black/Indian/Latino/Asian women in it though. Now Penthouse OTOH, well they can fuck right off. I got Penthouse for two years and NEVER saw one black girl. Only white girls and maybe a handful of hispanic girls. I'm not talking about a black pet of the month either. There was NEVER a black women in any layout in general. Not even an ad. Penthouse has more layouts than playboy does, and never did they have a black girl in the magazine, in two years! I did not renew my subscription to say the least.

audrey_k
08-31-2009, 05:56 AM
Damn, I need to start picking my music for the crowd, lol. The only time I've ever thought about what the customers want is if someone mentions a specific song they want to hear. Usually I just think "well I'm taking my clothes off, what do I want to hear while I do it?" :P

britneyireland
08-31-2009, 06:49 PM
ALWAYS choose your music for the crowd! I think the only time I've ever danced to a cross-over hip hop song was the weekend the NBA All Star game was in town! LOL!

JayATee
08-31-2009, 07:15 PM
ALWAYS choose your music for the crowd! I think the only time I've ever danced to a cross-over hip hop song was the weekend the NBA All Star game was in town! LOL!

+1. I always always scan the crowd before I go up. I want all eyes (and money) on me so I cater to who's in the club at the time of my show.

chris91
08-31-2009, 07:16 PM
Customers tell me all the time that I am "Hot for a black chick"

When I saw your screen name, I took it to be in the context of a someone who has the hots for a black chick. I can't believe that dudes say that shit to you. I would be pissed if somebody said I was "hot for an italian chick." So fucked up.

Djoser
08-31-2009, 09:41 PM
Well anyway to answer your question, I just call myself hot4ablackchick out of sheer fun. Its really a running joke at my club, because I hear it all the time from customers. Customers tell me all the time that I am "Hot for a black chick" and that I am "way too beautiful to ONLY be black" as if you have to biracial to possibly be an attractive black woman. So I say it out fun and just have 'owned the phrase' so to speak. It used to piss me off but now I have to hold back laughter whenever a custy says it. In a gentle way I remind them that what they just said is offensive and silly. I keep it light and don't let it spoil a sell now. Now if I could only find a way to deal with the guys who say "wow you don't SOUND black," or "Theres not any slang in your voice" Grrrrrrr....

I don't know why you don't see black women/white men together. Its definetely more taboo than white girls/black men. I guess I am taboo because my hubby is white! I've met several (well most actually) who say they would not even consider dating a white man...

Well yeah now the name makes a lot of sense, and it's funny now that I know what you mean! And how cool is it that we are better friends because of this thread?

And wow you are hot, lol! ;D

When I said you never see white men and black women together I was really referring to the media, which still seems to avoid this like the plague. While constantly plastering pictures all over of white women and black men as the ideal image of the mixed race couple. Like black men are hot, but black women, not. If I was a black woman this would fucking piss me off, as I'm sure it pisses off the Klan guys, haha! Not really helping the relations between the races if it's done in this contrived way.

OTOH maybe the white guys really aren't attractive to black women in general, and vica versa. The Penthouse/Playboy thing again, etc. Who knows? Though certainly some white guys do like black women in the clubs.

I just think it's weird, and if the media were to really be PC, as they are quite obviously trying to do, they should 'mix it up' equally.

For some reason the black women seem to like me though--though it's certainly not a guarantee. I grew up in Detroit and used to go downtown as a little kid and hang out with the black women my mom worked with, maybe that has something to do with it.


Oh as far as the music fitting the crowd, it's amazing how much the tipping will improve if the guys really like the music (not to mention the general party mood). I literally cannot count the times I have had guys specifically request certain songs for the specific purpose of tipping to those songs! Plus you can just see and feel it happening if you watch the club and especially the tiprail.

JayATee
08-31-2009, 09:45 PM
^ I wanna come down and work in your club! You sound like youd be a lot of fun to work with. ;D

Djoser
08-31-2009, 09:48 PM
Thanks! I try...

Kylea2
08-31-2009, 09:56 PM
I've seen racism go in all directions in the club. It's not necessarily like being one race is bad, it really just depends on the club. What makes my blood boil though is when people expect you to act a certain way because of the color of your skin... and therefore they treat you a certain way before you have even said or done anything.

Donovan28
09-01-2009, 06:47 AM
I'm not 100% PC, but it seems to me that most racism comes from people who are afraid of what they don't understand. Then you add alcohol and people's inhibitions start coming down... here's a direction to take the conversation, though...

Why are old people allowed to be racist? I know they lived through a time when it was 'acceptable', but times have changed.

And another one...why is the United States one of the only countries in the world that forces people together the way we do? Look at Japan and Russia. They are nearly segregated. Why?

goreantx
09-01-2009, 06:59 AM
And another one...why is the United States one of the only countries in the world that forces people together the way we do? Look at Japan and Russia. They are nearly segregated. Why?

America is almost completely populated by immigrants. We live in the land of opportunity because we can live and work together.

Dallas is actually very segregated compared to my experience in Seattle. (Minus the Tacoma area) It's a lot more peaceful when people blend in together.

People are the same; cultures are what holds them apart.

Take two people of the same racial background, but opposing political beliefs, and it's easy to see that skin color has nothing to do with how people act.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
09-02-2009, 03:37 PM
And another one...why is the United States one of the only countries in the world that forces people together the way we do? Look at Japan and Russia. They are nearly segregated. Why?

Huh? How? Can you further explain..that makes zero sense. How is the US the only country that "forces people together"? Especially compared to Russia part and Japan. How are these countries segregated, at all? **I'm especially curious about Russia, considering that there are thousands of sub-ethnicities in that culture living and working together daily. Are you talking about white versus black?)

For a country of diverse citizens that get along better, see Brazil. There is still lots of blatant racism, but Brazilian people see themselves as Brazilian, no matter what country their grandparents came from, or the color of their skin.

This is just me relating what every Brazilian I've ever met has told me, so its all anecdotal. But there are plenty of "melting pot" countries, where people are forced together, that are less racist than the US. Hell, I think its even far better in Canada and Australia.

xdamage
09-03-2009, 01:43 PM
And another one...why is the United States one of the only countries in the world that forces people together the way we do? Look at Japan and Russia. They are nearly segregated. Why?

I like goreantx's points. Force is seeing it all wrong. There are parts of the world that were settled in larger scales further in the past, and Japan and Russia are fairly isolated, meaning that over vast periods of time people tend to have very similar genes and lineage.

America OTOH was fairly recently colonized by settlers from other parts of the worlds (displacing the Indians that lived her first). For various reasons we have a large mix of people from different parts of the world living here, some brought against their will, some to seek new opportunities. Keep in mind that the methods of fast travel we enjoy today including planes and even our naval options and navigation technology is VERY new on a historical scale. People didn't move around so fast in the past.

The only real "force" at play is that these very same people would like equal opportunities, and that is fairly deeply intertwined with matters like stereotyping, racism, etc., plus there are more opportunities for people of mixed genetic backgrounds to fall in love, pair off, have children, etc. From that we agree to write laws that require citizens of the USA to be tolerant of the mix of people that are actually living here, and in fairly high percentages as compared with some parts of the world (that I feel are actually far less tolerant because they have less exposure, but that is a side story).

JayATee
09-03-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm not 100% PC, but it seems to me that most racism comes from people who are afraid of what they don't understand. Then you add alcohol and people's inhibitions start coming down... here's a direction to take the conversation, though...

Why are old people allowed to be racist? I know they lived through a time when it was 'acceptable', but times have changed.

And another one...why is the United States one of the only countries in the world that forces people together the way we do? Look at Japan and Russia. They are nearly segregated. Why?


We're forced together? I thought this was one of the things that made America so great. Everyone has the same oppotunities. Equal chances and equal rights for everyone. The person who is brought up in squalor in another country can come to America and be on the cover of Forbes someday. You can move into any house in any area you choose. People die in their attempts to get here and why is that? It's because there is no other place like this country in the world. Ask people in other countries why they want to come here and they'll tell you it's because our streets are paved with gold. We're not forced together. We CHOOSE to be together. You would rather be segregated? To what point and purpose? You would rather this country run the way Russia is run? Not for me thanks!

vmurphy252
09-03-2009, 01:58 PM
We're forced together? I thought this was one of the things that made America so great. Everyone has the same oppotunities. Equal chances and equal rights for everyone. The person who is brought up in squalor in another country can come to America and be on the cover of Forbes someday. You can move into any house in any area you choose. People die in their attempts to get here and why is that? It's because there is no other place like this country in the world. Ask people in other countries why they want to come here and they'll tell you it's because are streets are paved with gold. We're not forced together. We CHOOSE to be together. You would rather be segregated? To what point and purpose? You would rather this country run the way Russia is run? Not for me thanks!

+1. I completely missed Donovan's post. It's actually being asked WHY we don't want segregation, and why it's been fought against for 50+ years now? No words...

cadencetyme
09-03-2009, 02:00 PM
I liked dj dosers tale of bikers, donkey ball country music, and black chics on stage. Reminds me of my good old country roads home :0)

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
09-03-2009, 02:25 PM
Ummm, Russia is a very diverse country. Its not isolated at all, although Sibera is very remote. Its the largest country in the world, its surrounded by dozens of countries. The population is heterogenous. The only race that is not prevalent is that of African-descent, although there is still a sizeable population of Afro-russians that moved her during the cold war, or even since. The government does not run Russia in a manner that keeps people separate.

The culture there is much older than that of America. Certain sub-ethnicities have ruled over their regions for 1,000+ years. But anyone living in a decent sized city in Russia will see that all of the races and ethnicities live together and inter-marry.

Just sayin...Russia is a really bad example of a homogenous culture. Japan may be better, but only because historically, the Japanese rulers have fought hard to eradicate indigenous groups of people from predominant society. For example, The Ainu people; here's a quick Wiki if you want to know more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

Fascinating stuff.

Donovan28
09-03-2009, 10:20 PM
We're forced together? I thought this was one of the things that made America so great. Everyone has the same oppotunities. Equal chances and equal rights for everyone. The person who is brought up in squalor in another country can come to America and be on the cover of Forbes someday. You can move into any house in any area you choose. People die in their attempts to get here and why is that? It's because there is no other place like this country in the world. Ask people in other countries why they want to come here and they'll tell you it's because our streets are paved with gold. We're not forced together. We CHOOSE to be together. You would rather be segregated? To what point and purpose? You would rather this country run the way Russia is run? Not for me thanks!

I'll reiterate the opening statement- this discussion is just to have an open conversation and hear viewpoints, not jump anyone's opinions because they don't match our own or demonize anyone whose views do not reflect our own...

Those were some very interesting conclusions you tried to jump to about my 'force' statement. I doubt highly that anyone in the south thought the Civil War and bussing laws weren't FORCING them at all.

Streets paved with gold? Maybe in Hollywood, but have you seen the inner cities of most US Cities lately? I hope you mean politically speaking...yes, our uber liberal government has made this a great place to come and skirt our laws while stealing the rights and privileges of middle class American citizens for 'free' and screaming for rights they don't have. (yet, give Obama a few months more)

Would I rather be segregated? Good question, JaT. No, I wouldn't. What I'd like is ALL people having equal standing and no 'protected groups' and 'affirmative action'. Those are just things that were created to give certain people a leg up over others, and are now outdated if we're being honest and everyone is as equal as we say we are.

Unfortunately, some people didn't get the memo and they jump on a plane and stop traffic whenever one of 'their own' is accused or 'unjustly charged'. (Jesse Jackson) I'm sure OJ and Michael Jackson didn't buy their way out of trouble, aren't you?

What's crazy is that the war of words has escalated to the point where if you're not being PC to everyone, you're a terrible person. (Oh, unless you're in a protected group, then go for it! Yell at any other group you want!) What happened to intelligent discourse and being able to debate without all of this hate that automatically starts when someone disagrees with a liberal?

There's a revolution brewing in this country. Watch what happens over the next few days about Obama's 'Green Jobs Czar' Van Jones. He's a self avowed Communist, ex con, 9-11 Truther with a Congress proof appointed presidential advisory spot. This guy is representative of what I think is 'allowed racism'. Everything bad that happens is 'whitey's' fault. Total Jeremiah Wright stuff all over again.

If racism is to ever go away, EVERYONE has to give it up, not just 'white' people.

Nuclear Martini
09-03-2009, 10:25 PM
I'm not racist. All money is green.


There is no race I try to avoid at work. I am starting to notice you cant even avoid the young guys because they spend too! A lot of older guys are more focused on family and retirement and the younger guys end up having more of a disposable income. Just last week a 24 year old guy $2000 on me }:D. He was a cutie too.

I feel for black girls if they do have to deal with that kind of discrimination. All I know is that the black girls at my club are always making big money. This one super skinny black chick is in champagne all night.

DorianGrey
09-03-2009, 10:26 PM
America is almost completely populated by immigrants. We live in the land of opportunity because we can live and work together.

Dallas is actually very segregated compared to my experience in Seattle. (Minus the Tacoma area) It's a lot more peaceful when people blend in together.

People are the same; cultures are what holds them apart.

Take two people of the same racial background, but opposing political beliefs, and it's easy to see that skin color has nothing to do with how people act.

A-fucking-men. You get two people of different races who have had the same experiences, and the same political beliefs, and . . .they can be like twins. Politics and culture is slowly becoming what race used to be here.

*DG*

JayATee
09-03-2009, 10:33 PM
I'll reiterate the opening statement- this discussion is just to have an open conversation and hear viewpoints, not jump anyone's opinions because they don't match our own or demonize anyone whose views do not reflect our own...

Those were some very interesting conclusions you tried to jump to about my 'force' statement. I doubt highly that anyone in the south thought the Civil War and bussing laws weren't FORCING them at all.

Streets paved with gold? Maybe in Hollywood, but have you seen the inner cities of most US Cities lately? I hope you mean politically speaking...yes, our uber liberal government has made this a great place to come and skirt our laws while stealing the rights and privileges of middle class American citizens for 'free' and screaming for rights they don't have. (yet, give Obama a few months more)

Would I rather be segregated? Good question, JaT. No, I wouldn't. What I'd like is ALL people having equal standing and no 'protected groups' and 'affirmative action'. Those are just things that were created to give certain people a leg up over others, and are now outdated if we're being honest and everyone is as equal as we say we are.

Unfortunately, some people didn't get the memo and they jump on a plane and stop traffic whenever one of 'their own' is accused or 'unjustly charged'. (Jesse Jackson) I'm sure OJ and Michael Jackson didn't buy their way out of trouble, aren't you?

What's crazy is that the war of words has escalated to the point where if you're not being PC to everyone, you're a terrible person. (Oh, unless you're in a protected group, then go for it! Yell at any other group you want!) What happened to intelligent discourse and being able to debate without all of this hate that automatically starts when someone disagrees with a liberal?

There's a revolution brewing in this country. Watch what happens over the next few days about Obama's 'Green Jobs Czar' Van Jones. He's a self avowed Communist, ex con, 9-11 Truther with a Congress proof appointed presidential advisory spot. This guy is representative of what I think is 'allowed racism'. Everything bad that happens is 'whitey's' fault. Total Jeremiah Wright stuff all over again.

If racism is to ever go away, EVERYONE has to give it up, not just 'white' people.

Ugh, really dude? I didn't jump on you about anything. And Im not the only one who took your statement that way. If I had jumped on you, trust me, you'd know it. If you want to have an "open discussion" (as you've said many times) act like it. All I did was respond to your "interesting" statement.

And btw, streets paved with gold was figurative. Duh. ::)

Donovan28
09-03-2009, 10:46 PM
Ugh, really dude? I didn't jump on you about anything. And Im not the only one who took your statement that way. If I had jumped on you, trust me, you'd know it. If you want to have an "open discussion" (as you've said many times) act like it. All I did was respond to your "interesting" statement.

And btw, streets paved with gold was figurative. Duh. ::)

Maybe it's just your condescending tone. Duh.::)

Dirty Ernie
09-03-2009, 11:29 PM
I doubt highly that anyone in the south thought the Civil War and bussing laws weren't FORCING them at all.

You mean being forced to follow the Emancipation Proclamation and Brown v Board of Education? The nerve!

yes, our uber liberal government has made this a great place to come and skirt our laws while stealing the rights and privileges of middle class American citizens for 'free' and screaming for rights they don't have. (yet, give Obama a few months more)

Since when are Free Traders uber liberals?


Would I rather be segregated? Good question, JaT. No, I wouldn't. What I'd like is ALL people having equal standing and no 'protected groups' and 'affirmative action'. Those are just things that were created to give certain people a leg up over others, and are now outdated if we're being honest and everyone is as equal as we say we are.

As the pendulum swings back it cannot stop in the middle. I wish all the teabaggers had the same opportunities during their protests as those "protected groups" did while excercising their Constitutional rights. You know, like fire hoses, german shepherds, being fired upon by the National Guard, places of worship bombed, and having their leaders assassinated.


If racism is to ever go away, EVERYONE has to give it up, not just 'white' people.
Well sure, now that the backlash is affecting the previous beneficiaries, they feel the need to end it now.

JayATee
09-03-2009, 11:36 PM
Maybe it's just your condescending tone. Duh.::)

I wasn't condescending until that last post when you insisted I "jumped" on you. But now I'll put you on ignore and not be bothered with you again. Apparently a "discussion" isn't what you're really after at all bc you only want to talk to ppl who agree with you. Have fun being a jerk to someone else. Im done now.

Djoser
09-04-2009, 12:51 AM
I liked dj dosers tale of bikers, donkey ball country music, and black chics on stage. Reminds me of my good old country roads home :0)

That club was a circus. It was literally surreal. Quentin Tarentino could make a movie about it, and people would love it--but they would never believe it could actually happen. It was real alright, I was there. But then again on slow nights it really sucked sometimes! ;D


About Russia, not to stir up any trouble (please, this thread was going so well for a while), but it has been my understanding that the USSR was for most of its recent history a confederation of many more diverse and plentiful racial/ethnic/religious groups than exist in the USA, that were more or less segregated as a result of the extreme limitations on travel, freedom (of movement as well as in other aspects of living), etc., until very recently in its history.

Without the general prosperity that the freedom to travel requires, I cannot believe that the former USSR is anywhere near as integrated as the USA is, even if the USA leaves a lot to be desired in that respect. To be sure the Russian economy has probably advanced a great deal since glasnost opened the economic barriers, but enough to allow widespread travel to the extent that the USA has experienced for most of its modern history? I'm inclined to doubt it.

Though I could be wrong, and I imagine that the cities have become smaller 'melting pots' in recent years. I have heard good things about Moscow from some of the Russian dancers in particular.

goreantx
09-04-2009, 01:45 AM
This black girl wore this huuggee afro tonight and guys were eating it up. It was awesome. By the way, we need more asian girls. There's only one working like 3 days a week. I love the Lodge, it keeps a diverse selection.

Donovan28
09-04-2009, 07:46 AM
I wasn't condescending until that last post when I "jumped" on you. But now I'll put you on ignore and not be bothered with you again. Apparently a "discussion" isn't what you're really after at all bc you only want to talk to ppl who agree with you. Have fun being a jerk to someone else. Im done now.

This is exactly the kind of reactionary BS I'm talking about. Insulting, condescending and not willing to listen to other viewpoints... Thank you for making my point. I've never insulted you or your opinions. It's OK to disagree agreeably, but it's not OK to be bitchy about it.

I'm more than willing to listen to anyone with an opposing viewpoint and have a reasonable discussion, as well as be respectful and tactful. There's no need for vitriol and hitting the 'ignore' button on anyone unless they are prolific with insults and personal attacks. The site kicks people off for that.

I encourage people to have an opinion, while we still have first amendment rights. Don't take what the mainstream media gives you as gospel. Find other news sources and do your own research. Free your mind. This liberal media is in the bag for this current administration. (ABC informercial on healthcare reform as an example, not reporting important gaffes and appointment of leftist radicals into the Czar positions, blowing up distraction stories into humongous proportions to take the spotlight away from Congress robbing us) MSNBC is the absolute worst.

I agree with what GoreanTX said earlier. It's culture and politics that are driving us apart. Look at the general difference just from the Far Left Coast (CA- broke and ready to make the federal government (taxpayers in all states) pick up the tab from decades of bad liberal management.) and New York/New England/Philly, etc. These people are crammed together in a small space and don't generally drive anywhere with very little sense of reality outside their little bubble. (That's what Seinfeld was trying to tell us in the 90s)

The truth is that most people in what the coasts call 'flyover states' don't agree with most of this liberal crap and we aren't going to take it much longer!

Watch how the media reports hundreds of thousands of people marching on Washington on September 12. They will say it's a couple of hundred right wing nut jobs and spin it wrong. You heard it here first, before they do it.

So how do we fix this? Stop voting with a 'party' (both of the RepubliCrats have always voted for bigger federal government and with special interests, along with pay raises for themselves and Constitution challenging-bad for America policies) Start getting involved and educated about who we are sending to Washington. Check out www.Goooh.com (http://www.Goooh.com)

Donovan28
09-04-2009, 08:16 AM
Well sure, now that the backlash is affecting the previous beneficiaries, they feel the need to end it now.

Thanks for your input Ernie. I'm not sure I liked how you picked and chose the pieces of my post you wanted to stay away from because you might not have had a comeback to them...but no matter.

This one alone is worth responding to. This 'backlash' IS racism, and it's being allowed to run it's course under the guise of political correctness. This is completely counter to everything Martin Luther taught.
I don't think his end-goal was to make 'white' people suffer, was it?

Previous beneficiaries? I'm 40 and don't believe I've EVER benefited from racism. (Who does??) Maybe some people in their 70s did, but that is not a reason to punish white people now for federal policies that happened when I was a kid and are now going the other way for the last 30 years.

So you are saying that you wish the cops would shoot the conservative, patriotic constitution restorers with fire hoses? I assure you there will be no violence at these REAL peace gatherings. You might see a few signs you don't agree with, but they are peacefully protesting what is becoming an increasingly Marxist government.

We are a Rupublic, and our federal government is supposed to be limited. The STATES have all the power and bad politicians have been trying to change that for decades. We're going to change that back.

Bottom line: The federal government is not supposed to be a provider of healthcare (1/6 of our economy) or a redistributor of wealth. They should run the post office and foreign policy. If you haven't noticed, everything they touch turns to crap. The service gets bad and they waste about half of the money they keep throwing at everything (our tax dollars).

Both parties are self serving and must go. (www.Goooh.com (http://www.Goooh.com))

Opening your mind isn't just for hippies anymore. Everyone needs to do it now that liberals run 95% of all media and run the country's policies.

Donovan28
09-04-2009, 08:19 AM
This black girl wore this huuggee afro tonight and guys were eating it up. It was awesome. By the way, we need more asian girls. There's only one working like 3 days a week. I love the Lodge, it keeps a diverse selection.

I agree. I'll see what I can do about recruiting... The Lodge is by far the best club I've ever been to and I've been to a few.::)

xdamage
09-04-2009, 08:24 AM
So how do we fix this?

FWIW I think this is a common sentiment but sadly over looks a subtle aspect of human nature. We are essentially unhappy campers (statistically, even if you find some exceptions). It is not all bad news though. Some have attributed our remarkable success in the gene pool to our "bitch gene". We simply are rarely content, always looking for some way to improve our lot in life, even at the expense of others. Our competitiveness is strong and we mostly do it without thinking, see everything from our own PoV and how could things be better for us.

I honestly don't think there is any "fixing" this; that no matter how good or bad our economy is people will bitch and want more, and that this is both a positive and a negative. We just aren't plants content to barely subsist using the least resources possible in the least aggressive way possible (that is the positive). It is also the negative. And even if you find individuals who feel content, they have enough, they won't live forever. There are always new people being born of which many will be unhappy and want better lives. The driving force behind progress (technological, political, and social).

And we all think if we'd only fix a, b, and c that we'd be happy tomorrow. But tomorrow comes and even if fixed, then we will want d, e, f. The constant struggling between people for their own better good is both behind our progress, and our discontent.

Yep, I basically just said we are all whiny bitches at heart ;)

rusdancer
09-04-2009, 09:10 AM
Ummm, Russia is a very diverse country. Its not isolated at all, although Sibera is very remote. Its the largest country in the world, its surrounded by dozens of countries. The population is heterogenous. The only race that is not prevalent is that of African-descent, although there is still a sizeable population of Afro-russians that moved her during the cold war, or even since. The government does not run Russia in a manner that keeps people separate.

The culture there is much older than that of America. Certain sub-ethnicities have ruled over their regions for 1,000+ years. But anyone living in a decent sized city in Russia will see that all of the races and ethnicities live together and inter-marry.

Just sayin...Russia is a really bad example of a homogenous culture. Japan may be better, but only because historically, the Japanese rulers have fought hard to eradicate indigenous groups of people from predominant society. For example, The Ainu people; here's a quick Wiki if you want to know more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people

Fascinating stuff.

I will stay out of this or any political threads,but will say this,even though it's off topic...

Thank you for saying that about Russia.It always amazes me how people tend to make assumptions without ever having been there or even reading much about it.

USSR was much more diverse than USA and actually,USA is more isolated,if you look at the map.About people not travelling much,it was simply because there was no need for it,all those countries/republics are very old,and people were happy where they were and were very traditional.The whole moving around/shifting phenomenon is more recent due to globalization.In fact,people from the former USSR are now found anywhere and everywhere in the world.

About Russian economy,it was always doing great and was run very well,it was just greatly stagnanted by the communist/socialist era,which lasted about 70 years.Just look up Tzarist Russia, for an expample,and you will see,a wealthy country with great resources.

I can go on and on about all this,but there's really no need.The fact is that it is a great country with a VERY long history,which has been evolving and changing over centuries.

Moscow is doing fantastic,it's a very old stunning city,founded in 1147,but was around even before that.It's a huge center for the history,arts,fashion,cuisine,education and list goes on.I still go back to visit family every 6 months,they all live in different parts of downtown of this HUGE metropolis.Even after all the ups and downs,I believe Moscow is still on top of the Forbes list of the most expensive cities of the world,was in fact,#1 for about 3-4 recent years (actually,IMO it's not the best thing).There were also listed about 40 billionaires,mostly under 40 years of age,all from the same city.....So they were doing something right.

There are a lot of bright people in this resilient country,and things always tend to work out.I am speaking mostly for Moscow and ST Petersburg although.There are definitely poor parts of the country,especially considering what all those wars have done,but that's a characteristic of any other country that exists.Sometimes I go for a drive outside of DC or NYC.Go about an hour away and you might be in for a surprize!


As far as the racial thing goes in the clubs....a customer is a customer.There is no age,race,background,sex,whatever,once they're in the club,all they are is a wallet.I approach every single person,and sometimes it can be a very nice surprize....

So let's just respect everyone without judging and work together!;)

Djoser
09-04-2009, 10:14 AM
Thank you for saying that about Russia.It always amazes me how people tend to make assumptions without ever having been there or even reading much about it.

USSR was much more diverse than USA and actually,USA is more isolated,if you look at the map.About people not travelling much,it was simply because there was no need for it,all those countries/republics are very old,and people were happy where they were and were very traditional.The whole moving around/shifting phenomenon is more recent due to globalization.In fact,people from the former USSR are now found anywhere and everywhere in the world.

About Russian economy,it was always doing great and was run very well,it was just greatly stagnanted by the communist/socialist era,which lasted about 70 years.Just look up Tzarist Russia, for an expample,and you will see,a wealthy country with great resources.

I can go on and on about all this,but there's really no need.The fact is that it is a great country with a VERY long history,which has been evolving and changing over centuries.

Moscow is doing fantastic,it's a very old stunning city,founded in 1147,but was around even before that.It's a huge center for the history,arts,fashion,cuisine,education and list goes on.I still go back to visit family every 6 months,they all live in different parts of downtown of this HUGE metropolis.Even after all the ups and downs,I believe Moscow is still on top of the Forbes list of the most expensive cities of the world,was in fact,#1 for about 3-4 recent years (actually,IMO it's not the best thing).There were also listed about 40 billionaires,mostly under 40 years of age,all from the same city.....So they were doing something right.

There are a lot of bright people in this resilient country,and things always tend to work out.I am speaking mostly for Moscow and ST Petersburg although.There are definitely poor parts of the country,especially considering what all those wars have done,but that's a characteristic of any other country that exists.Sometimes I go for a drive outside of DC or NYC.Go about an hour away and you might be in for a surprize!



Thanks for writing this. I do not pretend to be an expert on the history of Russia, I am more curious to find the truth than trying to tell it.

Have you been to Kiev? From what I hear it was a bustling metropolis and cultural center when Moscow was a still little riverside town in the 12th and 13th centuries. I would love to go there. We have a lot of dancers from the Ukraine, as well as a few from Siberia.

There were 3-4 from Moldova at my last club (formerly known as Bessarabia), another one of those smaller republics which have split off from the old USSR. I think I have worked with about 8-10 all told from the Moscow area, including a very charming woman from near Gorki. though that is probably a lot higher if you include some of the ones who moved on after a short time.

It's also interesting to see how people view the term 'Russia.' these days. So much of what people referred to as Russia, or USSR, say 20-30 years back, has now splintered apart into various semi-autonomous nations, as some of the various ethnic groups seek independence. But so long as travel is freely encouraged and frequent, this would not necessarily reflect a trend towards segregation, per se.

I am also curious as to how the Russian people view the Tsarist heritage. Sure the country was wealthy, but the division of wealth was surely one of the most imbalanced in history--the plight of the serfs being not much better than slaves from what I have read, and not much of a 'middle class'. Not that communism was the answer to that situation. What's interesting about the USA today is that despite the massive wealth of the nation, and the prosperity of the average citizen compared to say a hundred years ago, the division of wealth is also becoming increasingly unbalanced.

We are digressing here, sorry, but this is quite interesting. Maybe we should start a thread on Russian history somewhere else! That would be fun...

Donovan28
09-04-2009, 10:19 AM
As far as the racial thing goes in the clubs....a customer is a customer.There is no age,race,background,sex,whatever,once they're in the club,all they are is a wallet.



Ouch! Using that logic, the customer could say the entertainer is just a pair of boobs! (I'm NOT saying this)

I tend to think there are 2 individuals who are in a setting that creates a mood where they can relax and if so inclined, get closer to eachother. If it's just the guy being a walking wallet, that reduces it to something else.

You're just breaking it down to the bare bones and you're kind of right, but I don't think guys want to see it that way.

I'm OK with dancers seeing dollar signs over my head in their mind, just don't let me know that's what's up!

Donovan28
09-04-2009, 10:26 AM
FWIW I think this is a common sentiment but sadly over looks a subtle aspect of human nature. We are essentially unhappy campers (statistically, even if you find some exceptions). It is not all bad news though. Some have attributed our remarkable success in the gene pool to our "bitch gene". We simply are rarely content, always looking for some way to improve our lot in life, even at the expense of others. Our competitiveness is strong and we mostly do it without thinking, see everything from our own PoV and how could things be better for us.

I honestly don't think there is any "fixing" this; that no matter how good or bad our economy is people will bitch and want more, and that this is both a positive and a negative. We just aren't plants content to barely subsist using the least resources possible in the least aggressive way possible (that is the positive). It is also the negative. And even if you find individuals who feel content, they have enough, they won't live forever. There are always new people being born of which many will be unhappy and want better lives. The driving force behind progress (technological, political, and social).

And we all think if we'd only fix a, b, and c that we'd be happy tomorrow. But tomorrow comes and even if fixed, then we will want d, e, f. The constant struggling between people for their own better good is both behind our progress, and our discontent.

Yep, I basically just said we are all whiny bitches at heart ;)

While I agree people are generally malcontents, I want more for myself and wish others did too. Without self-reflection and goal setting with action, this is nearly impossible. It's OK to be unhappy with today's state of affairs, but unless we identify the gap between where we are and where we want to be, we will never improve. That's actually EXACTLY what our third program is all about at SGR (http://www.stripandgrowrich.com).

good point, X.;)

xdamage
09-04-2009, 10:32 AM
The problem is if you just used Google and searched for articles on racism and Russia you'd find a lot and recent articles have indicated that racism has been a growing problem, but then admittedly most of us have not lived there.

But I am not sure if everyone is talking about the same things. Maybe, but it is easy to confuse a key matter. There are people in the USA from all over the world of dramatically different appearances in large numbers. Where in Russia people might be thinking about who is pure Russian (some 80% of the population), and who not, there really are no pure American's here.

Compare that with the USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American

German Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American) (16.8%), Irish Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_American) (12.1%), English Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_American) (9.3%), Italian Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American) (5.9%), Polish Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_American) (3.3%), French Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_American) (3.2%), Scottish Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_American) (2%), Scotch-Irish Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotch-Irish_American) (1.8%), Dutch Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_American) (1.7%), Norwegian Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_American) (1.5%), Swedish Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_American) (1.4%), and Russian Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_American) (1%) make up 60% of the "White (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people)" population.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American#cite_note-6) Included in the category are White Hispanics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Hispanic) representing 8.11%,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_American#cite_note-b03002-1) mainly Mexican Americans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_American).

We're all from other countries.

But since about 73% are white skinned. Those that are white skinned, regardless of background are seen more or less equal. You can be from a German, Swedish, Russian, Dutch, Italian, French.. well a long list background and for the most part be given a fair chance. That in itself is kind of unique because we don't all have a common lineage we can say is "American" going back very far in history.

But it is the other 27%, those with non-white skin that tended to stick out in people's minds (because hey we are simple and it is easy to see). I'm simplifying a bit but in the USA nobody really cares too much where you are from if your skin is white because we are all from elsewhere. On the other hand because there is an increasingly large percentage of people who are not white, our laws are slowly evolving to make sure non-white skin people also are treated equally.

It really is a melting pot as compared with so many other older countries , which isn't meant to diss any other country, but our statistics (in terms of backgrounds of people living together, and their large variations in appearance and lineage) is unique I think.

xdamage
09-04-2009, 10:48 AM
While I agree people are generally malcontents, I want more for myself and wish others did too. Without self-reflection and goal setting with action, this is nearly impossible. It's OK to be unhappy with today's state of affairs, but unless we identify the gap between where we are and where we want to be, we will never improve. That's actually EXACTLY what our third program is all about at SGR (http://www.stripandgrowrich.com).

good point, X.;)

And just incase someone's brain hears "does that mean we shouldn't try?" the answer is NO. Trying is good. Just there is no end-game. No day we all wake up and say today is the day we are all content, because even if you and I are content, a new generation will be born with no previous expectations, look around, see what they have and want more.

But also this very same drive is completely normal, and behind why every minority, and ever person reasonably wants a fair chance, to be treated well, an opportunity to succeed, etc. I can understand parts of our country worried about liberalism, but not about humans (who are far more similar then dissimilar) who want to be treated equally regardless of the minor innate differences.

Djoser
09-04-2009, 11:13 AM
The problem is if you just used Google and searched for articles on racism and Russia you'd find a lot and recent articles have indicated that racism has been a growing problem, but then admittedly most of us have not lived there.

But I am not sure if everyone is talking about the same things. Maybe, but it is easy to confuse a key matter. There are people in the USA from all over the world of dramatically different appearances in large numbers. Where in Russia people might be thinking about who is pure Russian (some 80% of the population), and who not, there really are no pure American's here.

Again we run into the definition of 'Russian', and what it is to be 'pure Russian'. What would Rurik have to say about this, I wonder? ;D

If you consider 'Russia' to be the same as what was formerly the USSR of 20-30 years ago, you are not going to have nearly the same proportion of predominantly one race dominating the total population as in the USA (white/western European by descent). Leaving out all the many and various splintered off republics, etc.
Certainly no where even close to 80%. The 'pure Russians' were actually a minority, albeit a minority wielding a very large proportion of the power.

I think that here in the USA most people are uncertain as to how to view the totality of what was formerly the USSR. Many would still regard this defunct organization as still being 'Russia', I fear.

As for 'Pure Americans', most of them were killed off a long time ago...