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xdamage
09-11-2009, 10:01 PM
Likely not.... many calls are routed through IP networks, over fiber optic cables, using compression and error correction algorithms, even if the wires you see in your home are still wires. It's also not true that science and technology has barely moved in 50 years; just utter nonesense and not even worth bothering with.

What is sad though is that much of the rest of the world looks on us with the same disdain that we look on people like Paris Hilton. Those born recently here have 0 appreciation for how fortunate they are. They flippantly dismiss others suffering in over populated countries. They flippantly dismiss the amazing wealth they are born into, technological wonders that others just wish they had. And they do it because that is human nature. No matter how much people have, if they didn't have to earn it, they don't appreciate it.

The other problem is many people dismiss the amazing work of others before them because by comparison it points out that they are rather dumb, contributing little of interest by comparison, and it hurts their ego, so again rather then appreciation for what they have and those who have contributed so much, they like to belittle others work and contributions as a way of making themselves via better. I've dealt with a lot of those types, often from rural areas. Interesting correlation?

Yet while I've met a few American's that have given up a television, few really willingly give up their computers, cell phones, medicine when they are sick, few would agree to set their bones the old fashion way without xrays, or agree to surgery using herbal medicine, or give up their cars, or stop using electricity, or give up their synthetic clothing, the list of wealth is endless, and they are as blind to it as Paris is to her wealth because she (and many of us) really have no grasp of how many others have toiled before them to get to the point that allows them to live as we do.

Unfortunately it also seems it his human nature that we will probably have to lose much of it before people again tend to appreciate what they have. Such is humans. We are whiny bitches at heart, rarely ever satisfied, no matter the circumstances.

miabella
09-11-2009, 10:20 PM
refinements of tech are not the same as developing the tech. the basic concept of the internet was invented 50 years ago and there isn't anything radically different except refinements on the tech (and refinements by definition mean slow or no progress).

xdamage
09-11-2009, 10:58 PM
refinements of tech are not the same as developing the tech. the basic concept of the internet was invented 50 years ago and there isn't anything radically different except refinements on the tech (and refinements by definition mean slow or no progress).

Yes I've read this popularized view. It is the view of an idiotic lay person who is measuring science and technology by what they can see and grasp, not by someone who actually is involved. Their basic premise is but I had something like an airplane long ago, so science must have barely moved if we still fly in airplanes. It is moronic on so many levels and there is simply no way to explain to a non-scientific person why it is moronic. The best I can tell you is that we understood the concept of "medicine" thousands of years ago. A moron would say "but nothing much has changed... we had medicine then, we have it today". That's because morons want to feel smart, and so can dismiss hundreds and thousands of years of math, chemistry, biology and physics advancements that allow us to manipulate and create on a molecular level. Yes, it is all just "medicine" but to suggest that science has slowed down in the last 50 years because the progress has moved far beyond what a lay person can see as benefitting them is, well, sorry.. precisely what is wrong with this country which has become progressively less educated over the last 50 years. But science is not stopping. If it doesn't happen here, it will happen elsewhere and the money and wealth will follow.

xdamage
09-11-2009, 11:13 PM
refinements of tech are not the same as developing the tech. the basic concept of the internet was invented 50 years ago and there isn't anything radically different except refinements on the tech (and refinements by definition mean slow or no progress).

BTW, having been involved heavily in computer software development for almost 32 years now, please... I know precisely how the technology has changed and the evolution of the Internet as I was involved in various low level protocols that are the foundations. We worked for years to get it all right. It scares me how dumb people are. And this statement is about is clever as Al Gore telling us that he invented the Internet, and scarier still people like you understand it so poorly that you can utterly dismiss it.

I can only guess you need it to feel good about yourself, but just a hint. You really won't stop breathing if you give people before you due credit for their work and inventiveness. To dismiss so many peoples work over such long periods of time with "well, the basic idea of communicating over wires was invented 50 years ago" is like me saying "well, the basic idea of flying was invented 60 million years by birds ago.. phhtt.. on all the science that lead up today's modern high speed fighter jets"

Seriously, when I read things like this all I can think of is that you are utterly self-involved and cant cope with the fact that others are a lot smarter then you, have contributed more, and so you need to stroke your own ego and discount everyone else who actually has contributed inventions to society.

So since all of America sucks and science is slowing down, what are you doing to fix that? Anything?

xdamage
09-12-2009, 05:44 AM
One problem people have when they look back over history is that there often is no difference between refinement and invention; it's an arbitrary matter to look at certain events in history as being "the invention", mostly by ignoring all the history of previous inventions that lead up to what someone else can argue is a refinement.


For example... perhaps the first wheel was discovered multiple times by people seeing logs or round rocks rolling down hills. Did those people invent the wheel? People have attached wheels to carts/boxes/platforms to haul things. Who invented that? If someone adds a seat so they can sit on the platform, is that an invention or a refinement? If you go back and study the history of the steam engine, it goes back far, some argue 2000 years, so a gasoline engine an invention or a refinement? If I put a mechanism on my cart to allow me to more easily turn the wheels, is that an invention or a refinement of an existing cart? If I combine and engine, a cart, with a seat for a person and a way to turn the wheels, is that an invention or a refinement? And so it goes.

You can do the same with say, CD players, tracing the history of how music was recorded before that, of the evolved history of the laser, of the evolved history of tne nyquist theorem and work done by others on digitizing sounds for other uses, so did the people who put all the pieces together to provide an alternate way of storing music (with the intent of commercializing it) invent something or refine something? Maybe we just remember it as invention (like the automobile) because they made a big hoopla over it, "we invented it" so that it would raise interest and thus sales? Maybe that's a common reason some refinements stand out in our minds as inventions?


It's only because we can't see the process of evolution of technology happen while we are living it that we often can't distinguish what is invention vs refinement. I've looked at a lot of tech patents, which are "inventions" yet they all are built on previous inventions, many mostly minor derivations. But it remains in the eye of the beholder to decide if they are invention or refinement.

But later.... after history has been neatly rewritten for us, into a bunch of simplified stories, then humans decide what stands out in their mind as "inventions". And you can bet it's already happening now. People will look back on our last 50 years and categorize it into what they think of as inventions vs refinements.

Conversely if it really is true that most of the invention occurred up until 1970 then it might be time to ask again, is it true what older people are saying? That our country was far better educated in the past, and that where many people use to aspire to be scientists, inventors, technical people, that these jobs were seen as jobs to have and had great social pride, today we primarly worship entertainers (ie.., musicians, actors, sports stars, etc.) Sadly that does worry me a bit. It worries me that we're in a hopeless downward spiral and that technology and science will move in large part to Asia, and along with it, much of the worlds excess wealth will follow, and leave our country. We may well end up being the over populated, lower technology, farming country while they the next super powers.

miabella
09-12-2009, 07:54 PM
people who are in the job of refining tech and working with refinements of tech have a strong investment in believing there is wild and magnificent progress whether there has been or not. fiber optic cable is a refinement of tech.

the ability to carry payphones around (cellphones) is an extreme refinement, but again, not a new thing. the underlying theory was already developed 50 years ago.

this is something one can agree to disagree on, but i am closer to correct in terms of modern technology and science.

xdamage
09-12-2009, 08:24 PM
people who are in the job of refining tech and working with refinements of tech have a strong investment in believing there is wild and magnificent progress whether there has been or not. fiber optic cable is a refinement of tech.

the ability to carry payphones around (cellphones) is an extreme refinement, but again, not a new thing. the underlying theory was already developed 50 years ago.

this is something one can agree to disagree on, but i am closer to correct in terms of modern technology and science.

I guess you read nothing I wrote or the concept alluded you, that like most people, you want to understand the world in simple black or white terms, things are "invention" or "refinement", a or b. That in reality these are just arbitrary points of view, and that all inventions/refinements are just gray scale combination of old (and some new) ideas, and that while some humans add a bit of something new, the vast majority are still building on 99.9% work done by others. On rare occasion geniuses make some major headway, but they are rarely inventors of things, usually of math, points of science, and those people are far, few, and in between.

Also that you are not in-on the amount of science and invention being done inside companies, often in secret, and won't hear about it until the future, so you can't actually know what is being invented today in secret.

In any case, again, you're basically being dismissive of others work, and the incredible good fortune you have to be a beneficiary, which is sad, but common enough.

What I can say is this... 99.9% of the people in this society who hand wavingly dismiss their good fortune, science, and technology, tell us they don't need it to be happy, but yet continue to use it because seemingly they can't live with out it either, would respond in the same way in the following situation:

Your own child is in an accident. Your choices are:

A.) Pray and hope an herbal medicine doctor can fix it by shaking bones, burning incense and crushing random leaves into a magic paste.

B.) Use your cell phone to make an emergency call, to be picked up by helicopter and flown to a facility during the critical first hour, to have your child stabilized, using monitoring equipment and medications developed only recently in history, to have x-rays taken, so that bones can be set straight, to have sterile micro surgery done to fix tendons torn in his hand, while the doctors can hop online and search for information while waiting for specialists to arrive, while your child is kept warm and save in a room powered by electricity, blood pulled from storage kept refrigerated, while an MRI is given to assess for brain injury which would need treatment immediately to prevent brain damage, while modern antibiotics are given post surgery to prevent infection, ... I could go on.

And there are people in the world who only had/have option A, who would find our lack of appreciation revoltingly self-absorbed, disgusting in our utter lack of thankfulness for our good fortune to have an option B, and option that even the most religious among us will and do take.

Sadly it does piss me off enough that a small part of me hopes that those who are so dismissive of their good fortune find themselves without the science and technology they so willingly dismiss, in a position where they would give anything to have it again. I think it is the only possible way for them to learn to stop romanticizing about the past, and appreciate the present.

goreantx
09-12-2009, 08:39 PM
A.) Pray and hope an herbal medicine doctor can fix it by shaking bones, burning incense and crushing random leaves into a magic paste.

So that's what they did 50 years ago? I always wondered. ::)

xdamage
09-12-2009, 08:43 PM
So that's what they did 50 years ago? I always wondered. ::)

I hope your reading comprehension skills are better then that and you really didn't take that away from what I wrote. A joke or should I be even more afraid about our future?

goreantx
09-12-2009, 08:50 PM
I hope your reading comprehension skills are better then that and you really didn't take that away from what I wrote. A joke or should I be even more afraid about our future?

Well, you are very funny ;D

xdamage
09-12-2009, 09:16 PM
Well, you are very funny ;D

Hopefully you never need to go to a hospital due to a crisis. If you do, if it should happen you feel any moment of thankfulness for how lucky you are for the technology/science in that moment... think of me then please. I'm guessing humor is not the emotion that will come to mind ;)

MarvelGirl
09-12-2009, 09:17 PM
I guess you read nothing I wrote or the concept alluded you, that like most people, you want to understand the world in simple black or white terms,

It seems pretty black and white to me when someone demands that other people only bear the number of children someone else deems acceptable.

xdamage
09-12-2009, 09:25 PM
It seems pretty black and white to me when someone demands that other people only bear the number of children someone else deems acceptable.

Eh? This board is full of endless posts of others having varying opinions.

The word "demand" is just a way to add emotional confusion, a witch hunt that is transparent and easy to see, but I will use it below to make the point.

Yes, if you live in a society with other people, your actions and choices effect them, so they do get to have a say if the long term effect is harmful. Alternatively if you don't believe that, then catch yourself if you find yourself doing any of the following:

"Demand" (aka have an opinion about) that others should drive lower emission vehicles vs SUVs.

"Demand" (aka have an opinion about) that others shouldn't smoke in places that negatively effect you.

"Demand" (aka have an opinion about) that businesses shouldn't pollute the environment we share.

"Demand" (aka have an opinion about) that people who are not ready to have babies take measures to prevent it.

And so on...

p.s. in China though they really do "demand" it because they eventually had too, or risk that their entire culture would fail. That future is a ways off for us but we avoid it because we teach people to avoid it, not by waiting until we are in trouble and then "demanding" it.

MarvelGirl
09-12-2009, 09:30 PM
Yes, and making the claim that large families (such as mine) are destroying the world is not angling for an emotional response?

I think you talk too much about things which are none of your business. People are allowed to have children and as long as they can support those children people can really sit on their angry negative feelings. The only alternative is to start sterilizing people and that would make you a nazi. This thread just has some really hateful things on it from people who should know damn well how much it hurts to be harshly judged for having a different lifestyle than "normal". I'm done with the hypocrisy.

xdamage
09-12-2009, 09:38 PM
Yes, and making the claim that large families (such as mine) are destroying the world is not angling for an emotional response?

I think you talk too much about things which are none of your business. People are allowed to have children and as long as they can support those children people can really sit on their angry negative feelings. The only alternative is to start sterilizing people and that would make you a nazi. This thread just has some really hateful things on it from people who should know damn well how much it hurts to be harshly judged for having a different lifestyle than "normal". I'm done with the hypocrisy.

No one person using an SUV destroys the environment. But if multiplied over many many people then it adds up. I'm sorry if that brings up some negative feelings, but many people who buy SUVs can afford them. It still doesn't mean that if everyone does it, world-wide, that we won't long term hurt for it. But our long term good remains a concern even if it does hurt the feelings of some SUV owners. We don't like hurting their feelings in bringing it up, but denial of a long term trend is it's own kind of evil that went on for a long time. So since there is no way to win, we need to encourage people to worry about long term negative trends, even if individuals feel some hurt over it. Sucks but that is life - it's complex and there is no way to make everyone happy all the time.

FWIW, people ignored those trends for a long time, a life style choice until at some point in the future we end up with matters like is their global warming that could harm future generations? people starving in countries where there was no population control, etc. So don't worry.. history says we need to learn things the hardway and only then will people be concerned.

goreantx
09-12-2009, 10:04 PM
Hopefully you never need to go to a hospital due to a crisis. If you do, if it should happen you feel any moment of thankfulness for how lucky you are for the technology/science in that moment... think of me then please. I'm guessing humor is not the emotion that will come to mind ;)

I still don't know what any of your hateful rants have to do with the Duggers getting pregnant. :O

xdamage
09-12-2009, 10:15 PM
I still don't know what any of your hateful rants have to do with the Duggers getting pregnant. :O

Well you could try reading the thread to see how it got to this point but that aside, here is an analogy many of us grew up through:

Some people were worried about matters like over use of oil a decade or two ago, they spoke up, which resulted in others who were profiting from the sales of oil and larger vehicles (their life style and lively hood) to label that as hateful rants, lunatics, fringe, a worry about nothing. We have plenty of oil. A car doesn't emit enough pollution to fill a small cup, etc. Wind ahead to the future...

Do you now look back on those who were speaking up before there was a major problem as hateful? trying to destroy the lively hood of those whose choices depended on consuming more? or do you now see that they took a risk, to be disliked for speaking up BEFORE the use of resources got out of hand?

Actually don't answer that. It doesn't matter. History always repeats itself and likely the matter of population control also is going to be a problem for us as our nation continues to experience decreasing prosperity. It is a pattern that repeats itself over and over, a downward spiral that many civilizations have fallen into, ours assuredly too. I don't need to know if you can understand this as your opinion is less relevant to me then historical trends.

goreantx
09-12-2009, 10:24 PM
Some people were worried about matters like over use of oil a decade or two ago, they spoke up, which resulted in others who were profiting from the sales of oil and larger vehicles (their life style and lively hood) to label that as hateful rants, lunatics, fringe, a worry about nothing.

use of resources got out of hand

our nation continues to experience decreasing prosperity


your opinion is less relevant to me then historical trends.

You're just making random and far fetched "points" and speaking down to people at this point. We've been proving you wrong each time you come up with a different direction. Resources, space, technology... now oil (back to resources). We still have an unimaginable supply of oil, and everything else. ::)

xdamage
09-12-2009, 10:32 PM
You're just making random and far fetched "points" and speaking down to people at this point. We've been proving you wrong each time you come up with a different direction. Resources, space, technology... now oil (back to resources). We still have an unimaginable supply of oil, and everything else. ::)

So far you've provided nothing like proof that resources are not limited. The proof of the possibility of over population exists today in over populated countries which weren't over populated very long ago.

You and others have ignored that countries that really exist have reached crisis points. And the only way to ignore so many millions dying due to lack of resources in over populated countries is, frankly, to be so self-centered that you just don't care, and/or for whatever reasons, cannot see how the same could happen to our country or any country if people ignore the trends.

It's fine. It is just a reminder of why countries over populate and reach the crisis points they do. Most humans cannot accept long term trends and think looking 5-10 years ahead, or even 100, is enough because that is all that effects them personally.

MarvelGirl
09-12-2009, 10:51 PM
You're just making random and far fetched "points" and speaking down to people at this point.

Yes, he is. No one in my family even drives an SUV. I also know many people with no children or only one child who drive SUV's so that's a load of bullshit.

xdamage
09-12-2009, 10:59 PM
Yes, he is. No one in my family even drives an SUV. I also know many people with no children or only one child who drive SUV's so that's a load of bullshit.

Clearly the concept of analogous situations is too complex for people here. :-\

MarvelGirl
09-13-2009, 02:28 AM
Grats, you've resorted to flat out insults just because some people disagree with you. You've just joined my ignored assholes list.

xdamage
09-13-2009, 06:29 AM
Grats, you've resorted to flat out insults just because some people disagree with you. You've just joined my ignored assholes list.

That was bound to happen anyway since you've been gunning for it since I disagreed with you in another thread, and I already knew it would happen at some point soon anyway. I don't care about that as it is manipulative to hold the "I'm going to get really really mad at you" over others as a way to sway their opinions.

I do care about our future as a society but unfortunately it is pointless as people will do what they want, and not until we have our own crisis will they acknowledge a problem and then people will blame it on some conspiracy theory, on others did it, or they'll be hoping the world ends in 2012 and partying. Such is people.

pixierocksonthepole
09-14-2009, 12:12 AM
So in the end of all of this crazyness of over-population/non-over-population...the Duggars...aren't helping either party. haha :P


I don't really feel like debating, just wanted to make some fun.

stripperMBA
09-17-2009, 06:00 PM
that woman gave birth to 18 kids???

holy shit
that hurts my uterus just thinking about it.

MargaritaVillain
09-20-2009, 05:21 PM
http://i33.tinypic.com/s11fo1.jpg

BuxomBeauty
09-20-2009, 05:38 PM
there is room in the world for a few families to have 19 kids. ...... The big families get away with it because others don't, which is essentially just another case of "I want what I want because I feel it is in my best interest". I don't buy that it is being done for the better good though; see island #1 above for the end result if we all did.Yes!!

cyberstripper
09-20-2009, 05:42 PM
This will be number 19 for them. I used to be disgusted by this family, but now it is a little bit like a freak show going on there, and I find the whole thing entertaining in a Jerry Springer kind of way.

Link to news story (http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=8461762)


LOL LIKEWISE!

In a jerry springer/cult type way! I cant watch this for too long but I will be flipping thru channels and find myself staring in awe at this family. The funniest scene ever was when the two of the older ones got married and they were listening to religious recordings before their honeymoon!

I cannot fathom ever living this way. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks and have never been religious. To each his own but I cannot FATHOM!

BuxomBeauty
09-20-2009, 06:11 PM
After reading more in this thread, I have to say, I'm appalled at the gross lack of reading comprehension and dismissiveness.

CKXXX
09-20-2009, 07:53 PM
As long as they are supporting themselves and everyone is happy and healthy...I say let them be. It certainly isnt ANYTHING I'd want, but to each their own.

Oh and for the person who asked why dont they adopt....they are Quiverfulls. Biological children are a central part of their beliefs: http://www.quiverfull.com/index.php