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WestCoast101
10-22-2009, 09:32 AM
women tend to value relationships and family which is very time intensive, whereas a man can get by (if his wife or regular GF doesn't find out) with a quick screw later in the day and then go back to working his normal 12 to 15 hours a day and still be happy so long as he gets Sunday Football - e.g some of the Wall Street traders and investment banking types

princessjas
10-22-2009, 10:55 AM
I've read those stats, but it is complicated because I also have read that when people looked deeper the stats didn't tell the whole story.

Here is the main thing to ask. Do you actually know anyone who has the same job, same responsibility, same years of experience behind them, same success history, puts in the same number of extra-free hours (the 16+ hour days), who actually makes less? I don't.

Because the statistics give us some idea of the odds but they are not absolutes. If a woman wants it she might also make more than a man. The 15% figure is not an absolute guarantee of making less. It is over large groups it seems they make somewhat less for the same job, but not everyone, some make more.

The statistics do reveal a pattern, but this is precisely what I meant by the difference in how we treat men and women...

If a man said "I didn't do well in life because statistically 95% of men will make less then 40K a year so I just didn't try"... We would all say stop crying, be a man, and prove yourself! We would not feel inclined to be concerned about his emotional angst, self-pity, or excuses. And even if we patted him on the back we'd still be thinking "Loser" not pity, or poor guy, yea life is not fair.

How come we wouldn't feel sorry for him?

We would say don't use statistics as excuses for not trying. Break the statistics! Statistics are not guarantees; they are odds, but if we all gave up because the odds are slightly against us (or even significantly) we would all fail.

The strange question some have asked is this... if women stopped focusing on that 15% statistic. If we told them to stop making excuses and go succeed despite the odds, would that figure decrease? Or have they already assumed they will make less, so try less hard, so it feeds into a self fulfilling prophecy?

p.s. Your point though about raising family is true, and why the stats are complicated. Many top male execs neglected their families, or didn't have any. Work to the exclusion of all else in life - a fairly expensive price to pay for wealth, fame, success.

Yes, the guy that held my former position before me made almost 10k more than me, with less experience, less education AND he worked less hours and just generally fucked up constantly. Even after 3 years at the job (the amount of time he was with the company) I STILL made 8.5k LESS than he did when he left.

It's really all over the place down here. No one even suggests it doesn't exist, they just laugh at us poor stupid women for even wanting equal pay.

Oh, and if the world was a place where men were paid less and valued less, then I would say YES, we would pity them. Not that I'm even asking for pity, I'm just pissed about it. I work hard, but for example, one resume company I contract for pays all it's writers a different fee, but nearly all the men make $400 a piece, where the women make closer to $140. Many of these guys making $400 are no where near as good as I am (I have had to do rewrites for several of them, because their resumes are poor quality and never had a rewrite myself), yet I make $140 - $200. It's blatant sexism and although you may be lucky and live in an area where it is not as obvious, many of us are not so lucky. ;)

ETA - If I'm giving the impression I want pity, that is not it. I want change.

erotictonic
10-22-2009, 01:23 PM
Yes, the guy that held my former position before me made almost 10k more than me, with less experience, less education AND he worked less hours and just generally fucked up constantly. Even after 3 years at the job (the amount of time he was with the company) I STILL made 8.5k LESS than he did when he left.

It's really all over the place down here. No one even suggests it doesn't exist, they just laugh at us poor stupid women for even wanting equal pay.

Oh, and if the world was a place where men were paid less and valued less, then I would say YES, we would pity them. Not that I'm even asking for pity, I'm just pissed about it. I work hard, but for example, one resume company I contract for pays all it's writers a different fee, but nearly all the men make $400 a piece, where the women make closer to $140. Many of these guys making $400 are no where near as good as I am (I have had to do rewrites for several of them, because their resumes are poor quality and never had a rewrite myself), yet I make $140 - $200. It's blatant sexism and although you may be lucky and live in an area where it is not as obvious, many of us are not so lucky. ;)

ETA - If I'm giving the impression I want pity, that is not it. I want change.

Where are you?? This sucks.....

princessjas
10-22-2009, 02:10 PM
Where are you?? This sucks.....

North Carolina. The job I was referring to was in NJ though. The CEO even refered to me as "little lady" while calling the men by their given names during meetings. So f-in annoying.

When I had to fil out the IRS salary census form and saw that the idiot before me got paid 10 grand more than me, I was livid. I worked my ass off, put up with the pet names AND got paid less than a complete fuckup moron. ARRGGG!!!

xdamage
10-22-2009, 02:40 PM
Well of course there are places that are still living in the dark ages, and everyone should want equal pay for equal work, and hopefully anyone that starts a company today does that for their employees, but I've told my daughter the same as I told my son.

It is really up to her if she wants to compete, and she will need to establish her credibility before she is payed the big salaries.

Like all of us she wanted it earlier in life, but there are choices she will make along the way that will impact on her chances of making a large salary later in life.

I think this makes her stronger, not coddling her in this regard. And she has matured wonderfully. She is a go getter, knows what she wants, makes it happen. Awesome.

But it wasn't always so. When she was 18 she wanted to work in the mall over the summer because it would have been easy, less stress. I instead steered her to get a job in her field, I helped her write her resumes and she found a summer internship working as a programmer. After doing that 3 summers in a row, becoming acclimated to the job she'd be doing, she had an instant job offer upon graduation.

Why? Simple, her resume was already ahead of many men who had education, but no experience. The fact is that most Engineering companies weight that FAR more heavily then sex. Experiences, showing personal interest in the profession, etc.

OTOH my stubborn son hasn't listened, and kept choosing the low stress jobs, and now is having trouble finding an internship. I didn't coddle him in this regard either, but I mean he is now blaming his lack of opportunities on the economy. True, but he could have done more to stack the odds in his favor before the economy tanked. That was his choice.

I think though that it shows, to a great degree, for both men and women, their confidence is related a feeling of strength that comes from the stresses in their life that they face and overcome. In the end what doesn't kill us makes us stronger, like exercise, we grow by having our limits pushed and carrying the load.

erotictonic
10-22-2009, 03:12 PM
North Carolina. The job I was referring to was in NJ though. The CEO even refered to me as "little lady" while calling the men by their given names during meetings. So f-in annoying.

When I had to fil out the IRS salary census form and saw that the idiot before me got paid 10 grand more than me, I was livid. I worked my ass off, put up with the pet names AND got paid less than a complete fuckup moron. ARRGGG!!!

People out here would shit an eggroll over the "little lady" part for sure. They would be ganged up on by an angry lynch mob of women! If you didn't tell him to knock it off, somebody else would lol.

Golden_Rule
10-22-2009, 08:48 PM
I've read those stats, but it is complicated because I also have read that when people looked deeper the stats didn't tell the whole story.

This doesn't excuse people paying anyone person less for doing the same job as another, but there is a strange statistic growing out of this economy regarding women in the work force.

They are getting laid off at a lower rate. The most obvious reason for this is that they cost the company less so laying off the man is a greater reduction in overhead and has the greatest positive impact for the company on the bottom line.

So it would appear that women have their lower salaries to thank for holding onto their jobs in this miserable economy. [poor consolation, I am sure]

Golden_Rule
10-22-2009, 08:50 PM
When I had to fil out the IRS salary census form and saw that the idiot before me got paid 10 grand more than me, I was livid. I worked my ass off, put up with the pet names AND got paid less than a complete fuckup moron. ARRGGG!!!

That would certainly piss me off enough to say something about it. Did you bring it up with your corporate superiors?

princessjas
10-22-2009, 10:12 PM
That would certainly piss me off enough to say something about it. Did you bring it up with your corporate superiors?

No, I made a good salary at that company. I would not sacrifice a good paying job to bitch about something that to me...is just a fact of life. It may suck ass and be unfair, but it is part of... just being.

kittygirl
10-22-2009, 10:16 PM
XDamage (is that because you believe the X chromosome to be damage, just asking), I've gotten into this with you a couple years ago.

Yes, women make less for the same education and experience. I've been that person (remember UCB honors, and published). I've made about $20, 000 less than most men from podunk ass university.

I'm no slouch, but it is reality.

We don't use it as an excuse. We raise the babies.

You are, saying that men FEEL like losers.

You're more than welcome to join us real losers in the equation.

Yeah, not all men become president, but at 3 years old imagine if no man had ever been president.

I know you have a daughter and if it makes you feel better, by all means continue. But, ask you daughter for her truth. I bet her real story reflects ours.


That's probably too much a stretch of the imagination.

kittygirl
10-22-2009, 11:42 PM
XDamage, where are you that this isn't reality or is it just that you haven't found out because you're a man.

At this point my education is a joke and being born with a wiener and no education would have done me far better.

Guys and white men always find a way to rationalize how "we're all equal and everyone can succeed", you just seem ignorant of reality to me like all the white boys who tell black people "everyone has an equal chance."

kittygirl
10-22-2009, 11:51 PM
In god's eyes, yeah we're all born equal, but there is so much predjudice.

Am I guessing right that you are a white man?

Does your daughter not share everything with you?

Sometimes I kind of agree with you. In this case no.

Men I graduated with from UCB make about 4x what I do. But the reason it's calculated as 15% is because I can't even get the same position or title as thay do.

I am the sceretary/administative assistant. They are the financial planners. I was published they are not. I graduated from UCB w/honors, they graduated barely.

Tell me all the reasons I am wrong for noticing this, then get a sex change and tell me the same thing.

kittygirl
10-23-2009, 01:03 AM
This still makes me livid.

I graduated cum laude in Economics and History but every job I've had has employed men with lesser degrees to do higher paying work.

Anyone who doubts this I dare you to delve deeper into things. Even your female temps might have advanced degrees.

Trust me, I used to think I could achieve what men do and then it slapped me in the face.

At this point even my dad sees from the money numbers. It makes him sad because we were his big hope. But he knows how hard me and my sister work while my brothers get money for far less.

erotictonic
10-23-2009, 01:15 AM
kitty,

I don't think I know what to say, except for I'm sorry and I hope things get better for you.

Sometimes people go through stages in life that aren't so easy. Just keep expressing yourself, keep being you. :)

kittygirl
10-23-2009, 01:24 AM
Said very sweetly if I understand what you're getting at.

I'm happpy you haven't had the same issues.

But for the most part I have seen this to be true. Everyone has a different experience.

As far as low income white women and some low income black women I think you would find this to be the case, but my family wasn't as upwardly mobile as they hoped.

PS, I'm single. And I think you'll find a lot of single women dissatisfied with their economic status. Plain fact is mens' salaries bring you up. If you're single, please tell me how you did it.

erotictonic
10-23-2009, 01:56 AM
Said very sweetly if I understand what you're getting at.

I'm happpy you haven't had the same issues.

But for the most part I have seen this to be true. Everyone has a different experience.

As far as low income white women and some low income black women I think you would find this to be the case, but my family wasn't as upwardly mobile as they hoped.

PS, I'm single. And I think you'll find a lot of single women dissatisfied with their economic status. Plain fact is mens' salaries bring you up. If you're single, please tell me how you did it.

Oh I have a bf, but I sortof had the same situation as you in a way. I got a 4 year degree in NC, and was basically working admin. I got VERY dismayed with the south and came out to (where else) but California, while you went back east hehe. And I have my bitches about the south.....

No, have not done anything with my career as of yet, but I am starting to. I've been enjoying IT work this week, helping my bf move a data center. I might still be wandering around somewhere lost without my bf, I have come a long ways since I met him. I attribute that mainly to my upbringing. I was actually discussing that with my bf earlier, about how ALOT of people in the neighborhoods I grew up in got screwed, because their parents couldn't do much for them, and some of the guys won't do as well as I do, because they are just dumber and won't ever be motivated to. Motivation itself is hard to grow, even if that's the only thing standing between them and success. I tend to think I was just dealt a 5 while my bf was dealt a queen, so it's taking me alot longer to work my way out of it (that and the fact that he has always worked harder than I have, but I also attribute that to upbringing). My self-confidence has gone way up from what it was, and I'm a lot more capable today.

The topic for me lately has been that I believe the upbringings from our generation were so different for girls than they were the guys, and that gives the guys the competitive edge initially. Plus, socially men are so different.... and they can negotiate. My bf is pretty hard-assed and I have had to fight him every step of the way to be heard, and I've had to learn to be very bold lol (but he is a very giving guy at the same time). I have listened to hour upon hour upon hour of how he handles things at work, and trust me, I didn't know jackshit about 9/10 of what goes on or how to grow in a career.

Anyways, I think you are right about the fact that it is much easier for you if your H or SO is already successful in his career. Sad, but true. I do feel like I was jipped, but it was by my family for not being able to give me the things I needed to succeed (good habits, self-confidence, can-do attitude, problem-solving abilities, goal-oriented, independence, emotional iq, etc.).

Another funny thing to add is: honestly, wow helped me. I got really good at wow, to the point where I was hanging with the best on our server. And that grew some self-confidence lol. I've never REALLY been what i consider to be good at anything; I never did any team sports or anything like that, only things I really didn't "admire" I guess you could say, like being a flag girl lol (I didn't think, now I can see that I had a certain amount of capability at anything), but I had just never grown into anything I really liked. But when I got good at wow, I think that helped lmao. I think it also has to do with the fact that I liked and accepted the people I was playing with, and I realized that they accepted me as well (not talking about wow nerds as much as my irl friends who play). I'm pretty much done with wow now, and moving on hopefully to something much more rewarding lol.

xdamage
10-23-2009, 05:55 AM
Men I graduated with from UCB make about 4x what I do. But the reason it's calculated as 15% is because I can't even get the same position or title as thay do.



I'll get right to the point. When you say they are making 4x to do exactly the same thing my first thought is you are deluded or entitlement minded. Sure anything is possible, but it is also common that new people out of school have an unrealistic perception of reality, how business works, you're not seeing that you're not doing the same job, or that you haven't yet proven yourself to be worthy of those higher pay jobs. That at the very top they are given to people with have years of experience.

That happens a lot. Let me give an example...

My mom was such a person. She honestly believed she did precisely what a doctor does with her "receptionist degree" because she was in "the medical field". There simply was no way to convince her that she didn't, and she simply could not conceive of the possibility that the doctors carried far more responsibility.

We honestly don't know if you really do exactly what these other people do. We only have your word for it. My guess is if we talked to them we'd hear another side to the story.

There are some degrees that are what I call fluff degrees. People who get degrees in things like home economics or political science and have no clue as to what it will be useful for. They can't understand why so many of the jobs that follow are utterly pointless crap paying jobs that only those in the inner circle make any money on it. Academics likewise tends to pay by tenure.

You picked history and economics. Well if I'm the first person to tell you I'm sorry, but they are not degrees you're going to find a great job with. Is this really the first time you've heard that? You have degrees that don't provide employers with anything they can make money with. They are probably fine starting points, but if you want to make money your choices are:

1.) Do something nobody else knows how to do.

2.) Do something nobody else wants to do.

3.) Do something that is incredibly high demand (but chances are it won't last).

A history and economics degree simply doesn't fit any of these profiles. You'll probably have to go back and get a more useful degree or use what you have and work your way up the ladder.

But there are just as many fields where people are paid by skills, experience, and how well they really do. Science, tech, engineering, law, medicine, sure even business, I've met women who are at the tops in all of these fields. Even then, you'll have to start at the bottom, put your years in. You're simply not entitled to top pay just because you want top pay. It didn't work that way for most of us.

Most big companies have had to set up standard pay rates though arguably still pay subjectively at the very top when hunting for execs with a lot of experience, but I'm doubtful your qualified for the very top as those jobs tend to go to the most experienced, not to those with new degrees.

Smaller companies less so, but many of them also practice nepotism. Save your money from dancing and start your own company. That's how a lot of personal companies get started. People save, and by later 30s invest it all into a business.

I noticed you trashed all of these dudes at rehab, referred to them as utter losers. While the women no such trashing, yet for all we know they are also job less, they also have drug problems (that is why they are in rehab), and for all we know have personality problems which interfere with having relationships. We just don't know. But since I don't know I'll assume both the men and women there are sub-par people (your terminology) or that both deserve some pity. Seeing them equally in this way might alter your perception.

What can I say but all of us point the fingers outward when things aren't working. Strangely it rarely works. Pointing them inward and changing ourselves actually does work, though you may have to do some things you don't like. Like working your way up the ladder in a company, put in 10-20 years, etc. And by the time you do (if you do) and look back, you'll have 10-20 years more experience, more knowledge, and I'll gamble you will see then why your perception is incomplete today.

xdamage
10-23-2009, 06:11 AM
Also before I hear about how white dudes just get it all handed to them on a silver platter, my job history is this:

My parents saved nothing for college. Not a dime. My mom was a nut case and my dad spent his money on him. Nor did they save any money to help me get started. I got a job at 17, left home before 18 with nothing but a few pieces of childhood furniture and a basic car I was making payments on.

I took a job in a field that interested me, working with mentally ill and developmentally disabled people, at the bottom of the rung. It was a crappy job but I was interested in it, psych. It payed a few hundred a month and I had to live bare bones to do it, but I did it. I didn't take the job just for the money (what a concept). I was actually interested in the field.

It took me many years to get a degree because I had to pay for it myself, along with a place to live, my car, etc. and work and do school full time.

My pay moved up slowly with experience and promotions like most people and was still crap, but that is not the only reason to do a job, which leads into...

I got interested in computers, so once I finished my degree I taught myself everything I could while not working. Started doing free projects for people for the experience. Then get a second job (second) for crappy wages to get some more experiences. Then I had my eyes set on a dream company and job and learned everything I could about their products, volunteered on their support forums, got to know the people in the company at conferences.

Eventually I was offered a job, still at the bottom of rung for Engineers. Over the years I moved up, proved myself.

It has been a long journey. I simply was not entitled to what I have today at 20 just because I wanted it at 20. And looking back I know now that the years of experiences and learning behind me are simply something you cannot get from a degree. That I'm responsible for far more then I was when I was young, and honestly couldn't grasp when I was young what I would be responsible for in the future.

But one thing I'll tell you is this. If your only goal in life is to make money then good luck with that. The ride is probably going to suck. If however you pursue what you enjoy, even if it means taking less pay on the way up, you may find that you're at least enjoying your life, your time at work, that you do well because your naturally involved and others too will see that when they are looking for people to promote. I bet you'd be surprised how many self made people actually did it first for love, second for money.

xdamage
10-23-2009, 06:24 AM
BTW kitty one last piece of advice...

If you honestly know of a business that is paying "4x" as much to men for the exact same job as women I suggest looking into a lawsuit. If that is really the only variable at play, the reality of the situation, they deserve to be sued and put out of business. OTOH don't be surprised if nobody agrees that is the full story.

xdamage
10-24-2009, 06:36 AM
The topic for me lately has been that I believe the upbringings from our generation were so different for girls than they were the guys, and that gives the guys the competitive edge initially.

There is some of that still, and a lot in many homes. Men and women aren't started off with the same expectations. And that could well be genetic but regardless women are completely capable of succeeding in the job market.

But as I said it's not all positive. Men aren't just given more support. Parents often don't hold their daughters to the same level of expectation as their sons. Support is only half of that.

Strong people aren't always waiting for others to support them. The internal strength in great part comes from knowing that they alone are responsible for success or failure, and being able to cope includes being able to suck it up, honest self-assessment, accepting responsibility for failures, and taking the steps of changing to fix what isn't working.

Criticism hurts, but we all know people that utterly fall apart when criticized. Our inclination is to say "aww poor baby" but like any addiction, they eventually become emotionally weaker, unable to cope without others telling them what they want to hear, to the point where they are completely unable to tolerate criticism. They simply won't be selected for jobs that require them to make a lot of expensive judgments as we can all tell intuitively they are weak.

I tried to treat my daughter the same as my son, but even so I felt some extra pangs of guilt at times, wanting to say "awe poor you" when you she also needed to hear the other side of it too, how her own choices and behavior were the issue.

But of the two my daughter was the easier to get started because she wanted a job in a field that pays well, and she was already very self-motivated to learn about her career on her own time.

My son OTOH liked to lay around and watch movies for hours on end, thought he wanted to be famous like Quentin Tarantino 2, except he meant he wanted the end rewards, not the work or time to reach that point. Nothing unusual about that; that is the vast majority of people. We want the ends, and don't have the passion, patience, or stamina to live out the means.

It is unfortunate too because colleges are manned by academics whose primary interest often is academia, promoting their own curriculum as that helps to insure their own daily bread and academic futures, but they don't necessarily guide college age people into paths that have good odds of providing them with a good living. And if you take someone like my son with unrealistic expectations, they'd gladly take his money to sell him a fluff degree that has almost no chance in hell of him being a famous director. But hey, that is not their job. Colleges really aren't in it to make people successful, and a degree does not necessarily mean success. They are in it to make money and protect academic self-interests. And in part, college's are also responsible for selling false hopes, because that is what is in the best interest of the college. Much of a person's success (or failure) still ultimately comes down to themselves, not their degree.

Cyril
10-24-2009, 09:03 AM
There are some degrees that are what I call fluff degrees. People who get degrees in things like home economics or political science ...


I do not know about home economics but a degree in political science is not a fluff degree and can land you positions like secretary of state, professor at naval war college, CEO of a think tank, etc. In addition, large number of foreign services staffs are armed with degrees in political science; they make good money.

You have a tendency of mixing apples with oranges.

erotictonic
10-24-2009, 08:35 PM
There is some of that still, and a lot in many homes. Men and women aren't started off with the same expectations. And that could well be genetic but regardless women are completely capable of succeeding in the job market.

But as I said it's not all positive. Men aren't just given more support. Parents often don't hold their daughters to the same level of expectation as their sons. Support is only half of that.

Strong people aren't always waiting for others to support them. The internal strength in great part comes from knowing that they alone are responsible for success or failure, and being able to cope includes being able to suck it up, honest self-assessment, accepting responsibility for failures, and taking the steps of changing to fix what isn't working.

Yes, this is mostly what I am referring to. I am just now getting a lot of this, after 39 years. It hurts like hell at this age too lol.


Criticism hurts, but we all know people that utterly fall apart when criticized. Our inclination is to say "aww poor baby" but like any addiction, they eventually become emotionally weaker, unable to cope without others telling them what they want to hear, to the point where they are completely unable to tolerate criticism. They simply won't be selected for jobs that require them to make a lot of expensive judgments as we can all tell intuitively they are weak.

I tried to treat my daughter the same as my son, but even so I felt some extra pangs of guilt at times, wanting to say "awe poor you" when you she also needed to hear the other side of it too, how her own choices and behavior were the issue.

But of the two my daughter was the easier to get started because she wanted a job in a field that pays well, and she was already very self-motivated to learn about her career on her own time.

My son OTOH liked to lay around and watch movies for hours on end, thought he wanted to be famous like Quentin Tarantino 2, except he meant he wanted the end rewards, not the work or time to reach that point. Nothing unusual about that; that is the vast majority of people. We want the ends, and don't have the passion, patience, or stamina to live out the means.

It is unfortunate too because colleges are manned by academics whose primary interest often is academia, promoting their own curriculum as that helps to insure their own daily bread and academic futures, but they don't necessarily guide college age people into paths that have good odds of providing them with a good living. And if you take someone like my son with unrealistic expectations, they'd gladly take his money to sell him a fluff degree that has almost no chance in hell of him being a famous director. But hey, that is not their job. Colleges really aren't in it to make people successful, and a degree does not necessarily mean success. They are in it to make money and protect academic self-interests. And in part, college's are also responsible for selling false hopes, because that is what is in the best interest of the college. Much of a person's success (or failure) still ultimately comes down to themselves, not their degree.

Agreed. A degree is just the beginning, a small part of what it takes to succeed, and many have become successful without it.

I agree with everything you've said, pretty much.

Kudos also on trying to raise your son and daughter in a similar fashion as far as these things are concerned. Imo, that's what a girl needs, same as a guy in many ways (not all, but many), so they can be independent and take better care of themselves than I could.

My mother was pretty much a doormat, and my dad was an alcoholic who trampled on her constantly, so those were my role models. I basically got no upbringing besides watching them. I got no direction, no punishments, no teachings, nothing. My mother just complained, cried, and chased my father around, and ignored what I was doing. My father just stayed drunk for most of my young years.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-24-2009, 08:58 PM
Yes, women make less for the same education and experience.
Well excuse this blue collar, working class, under educated individual but every represented employee with the same title made the exact same money, vacation and other compensation as all others with that title.

I ass/u/me some people don't have the desire, want or courage to demand, no take, what is rightfully theirs. :wife:

xdamage
10-25-2009, 05:32 AM
I do not know about home economics but a degree in political science is not a fluff degree and can land you positions like secretary of state, professor at naval war college, CEO of a think tank, etc.

That is right Cyril. 21 year old's walking out of school with Political Science degrees are handed positions of secretary of state, professorships at naval colleges, and CEOs of major think tanks because of their Political Science degree. Also some people win the lottery, they really do! But that doesn't mean a smart person banks on long shots.

Like do you think there is no other history behind how those people get there? Like they have no other degrees? no other experiences? Maybe they've been investing time for many years first? Maybe it is who they know?

Do you detect my sarcasm?



In addition, large number of foreign services staffs are armed with degrees in political science; they make good money.

You have a tendency of mixing apples with oranges.


You have a tendency of missing major points.

Cyril
10-25-2009, 06:22 AM
That is right Cyril. 21 year old's walking out of school with Political Science degrees are handed positions of secretary of state, professorships at naval colleges, and CEOs of major think tanks because of their Political Science degree. Also some people win the lottery, they really do! But that doesn't mean a smart person banks on long shots.

Like do you think there is no other history behind how those people get there? Like they have no other degrees? no other experiences? Maybe they've been investing time for many years first? Maybe it is who they know?

Do you detect my sarcasm?



You have a tendency of missing major points.

That was not a sarcasm. That was an ignorance.

Let me explain it to you point by point or else you will miss it again.

A possible career route:
1. Get a degree in political science
2. Get the job in foreign office
3. Work hard become an officer
4. Work hard get promoted become a consular general
5. Work hard get promoted become an ambassador
6. Work hard get promoted become deputy secretary of defense
7. So on ...

In every career, you have to start out at an entry level and work your way up. So, why are you singling out political science?

xdamage
10-25-2009, 06:47 AM
Well excuse this blue collar, working class, under educated individual but every represented employee with the same title made the exact same money, vacation and other compensation as all others with that title.

I ass/u/me some people don't have the desire, want or courage to demand, no take, what is rightfully theirs. :wife:

She may be referring to people who are working in non union positions that seemingly are living the good life.

Let's be honest. Society doesn't paint men who make a unionized fixed salary as wildy successful winners. Even if they make far more then most people do in the 3rd world, they're compared negatively against the highest paid people in our society.

Besides she got her degree in History and Economy, and see feels these guys have "lesser" degrees then her, yet they have jobs making more and she is pissed her choice of degrees hasn't opened the doors to higher paying jobs.

But how many companies need a full time Historian or Economist? How many union jobs can you think of are there for that? And would she want it anyway? Making the same salary as everyone else might not appeal if she is expecting to be paid the big bucks for a 4 year college degree which she feels is very valuable.

The truth is statistically the odds are stacked against women; and men whose parents don't pay for college; and by race; and more.

But it still remains true that any man or women living in the USA today, who is young, healthy, and has an education has about the best starting odds you can get. After that though it is still up to them, including maybe getting a new education.

Some degrees are basically useless except to get a foot in the door, and many successful people don't have degrees, at some point an adult is responsible for their outcomes from there on.

What I do believe though is that if a person succeeds, 99% chance is they will say "That was all due to me, the biggest variable was ME and MY WILL, not to everyone else, or my starting hand, I did it!"

And if they fail, 99% chance they will say "That was all due to them, the biggest variable was EVERYONE ELSE, and THE DECK WAS STACKED AGAINST ME, they did it!"

That's human nature. The one thing I do see though is that when men and women fail, we're less likely to accept blaming failure on others from men. If a guy fails to thrive we call him a LOSER and we're less likely to say "aww you poor thing, life is unfair". And that difference may well tend to force men to pick up the ball, be stoic in the face of adversity, keep on pushing back.

That stoicism in the face of everything is a trait that we perceive as inner strength, and it is trait that is attractive, even if it is unrealistically cocky, we perceive it as self-confidence.

Just remember, these guys do hear "LOSER" from society a lot. That's the less glamorous side.

xdamage
10-25-2009, 07:32 AM
That was not a sarcasm. That was an ignorance.

Let me explain it to you point by point or else you will miss it again.

A possible career route:
1. Get a degree in political science
2. Get the job in foreign office
3. Work hard become an officer
4. Work hard get promoted become a consular general
5. Work hard get promoted become an ambassador
6. Work hard get promoted become deputy secretary of defense
7. So on ...

In every career, you have to start out at an entry level and work your way up. So, why are you singling out political science?

Cyril, that is a possible long term path that could work out if someone really had a long term plan and could tolerate government fixed pay along the way.

But many 18 year olds, though legal adults, really do not have such a long term plan.

People mistakenly believe College's exist to help people get a good job. This is in the best interest of the people who work at Colleges.

College is just people. People who want to earn a living. Who promote the curriculum they teach because if everyone realized their curriculum was mostly useless they'd be out of a job.

Not all curriculum's or jobs are equally as demanding mentally or in terms of responsibility. Some like medical doctor, law, engineering, various science branches, are simply more difficult to complete, and likewise the students who finish and can do the work will make more sooner. But College's try to sell a wide range of degrees because they want your money, and the teachers whose daily bread depends on it need your money.

We could of course do away with lot of degrees in colleges. Or at least we could force them to disclose the odds of getting work, and what one is like to make. By which I don't mean do what you are doing now. Don't get people's hopes up unrealistically. Tell them about the percentage of people who got a Poli Sci degree and don't go on to become Secretary of Defense, and the salaries they will make working in a foreign office.

Look, almost every kid growing up says "I want to be a doctor" but the vast majority mean they want the fame, and pay. Only a small percentage really want the stress, the years of hard school, the years of on-going study, the internship, the being on call most of your life, the legal responsibility for other people's lives, etc. Which is why not all degrees are equal. It's not just because society holds us back. It's because most of us just don't have the will or drive to actually do that work, which is why it pays more then many other jobs.

ArmySGT.
10-25-2009, 12:45 PM
4. Work hard get promoted become a consular general

5. Work hard get promoted become an ambassador



Umm no. I have been in and out of more than one Embassy. I have met Ambassadors.

First, they don't have PoliSci degrees, someone on their staff does. Likely a lower level Aide.

Second,They are MBAs, what got them those jobs was a political appointment. They are friends of the President. Why MBAs? Because despite what the latest hollywood thriller depicts, they are mostly engaged in acts of commerce. Negotiating the deals that allow corporations to operate in another country.

Cyril
10-25-2009, 03:08 PM
X & Army,

That was a possible career path that I laid out. I know that an Ambassador is a political appointee and it is not an easy job to get. But you can always become a Consular. You can work as a high ranking officer in the State Department. There are plenty of opportunities for people with a degree in political science.

Just to make my point, Dr. Rice had a BS and MS in political science.

xdamage
10-25-2009, 04:56 PM
X & Army,

That was a possible career path that I laid out. I know that an Ambassador is a political appointee and it is not an easy job to get. But you can always become a Consular. You can work as a high ranking officer in the State Department. There are plenty of opportunities for people with a degree in political science.

Just to make my point, Dr. Rice had a BS and MS in political science.

It's fine Cyril.

My main point is my kids just graduated/graduating, and a lot of their peers got degrees in things like Communication, Liberal Arts, etc., and have no plan for what to do after. Nor are they clear on the odds of getting a job (or how much they can expect to be paid) after. Now that they are out many of them are having trouble finding work that pays well. Which we all knew they would, but apparently they did not. How can that be?

The college's aren't super motivated to educate college kids in this regard. Their money comes from selling 4 years of education, not from dampening people's high hopes and dreams of becoming famous and wealthy, which "could" happen of course, but is not guaranteed or even necessarily likely (you'd have to look at total graduates with say a Communication degree, or whatever, study how their careers turned out over 5 years, 10, 20).

The reality is we guys do have significant statistical advantages, but college is only 4 years, and then after that people have some 67-22 (45 years) of work ahead of them. 11x as long as the time they've been legal adults. They will be working for a LONG time if they really want a life time career.

And people's drive, persistence, hard work, intelligence are still huge factors in their outcomes over those 45 years. Sex matters but even males of the predominate race in their own countries are likely going to end up barely making a living, and many will fail.

Women are biased against, and I warned my daughter of this. But there is no point in teaching our daughters to be defeatist. However the reality is too that if they want to make the kind of money males are making they will either need to start their own business (and try to change the game), or compete in whatever jobs men are making money. They probably will have to fight a bit harder to prove themselves, but I know women who are taken seriously in business women, medicine (doctors, and some very good ones), and engineering. And just like the most successful guys, they are pretty much workaholics.

Me, I mostly got into my fields for love first and the money just appeared later as a pleasant bonus. I like money for sure, but it is not my main reason for getting into the careers I chose. I was studying Psych on my own anyway. I studied Computers Programming on my own and did a lot of free projects for the fun of doing it.

I told my kids the same, they do need to make a living, this is reality, but I'm a believer that people should choose a career path because they love the career. The money will come in time. On the flip side they should be realists. If they want to be the world's greatest fiction writer, great... do that. But make a living while doing it, and if they can't then do it at night after work. If they really love it, they'll find a way to do what they love and eventually might even get paid for it.

The hardest thing though for women may end up being a decision they will have to make. How to balance family with career. Me, I decided to start passing on promotions in my late 30s because work was demanding too much. I made enough, and didn't need more. Not if it meant having no time with my kids. But it's a choice. Some people I know had no kids, no family, and make more then me. That is their choice. Such is life.

WiseGuy_TX
10-25-2009, 04:57 PM
There are plenty of opportunities for people with a degree in political science....like being a TV trash show host (Jerry Springer).

Earl_the_Pearl
10-25-2009, 07:51 PM
Let's be honest. Society doesn't paint men who make a unionized fixed salary as wildy successful winners. Even if they make far more then most people do in the 3rd world, they're compared negatively against the highest paid people in our society.


Yes they are but we don't give a shit because we have more physical strength and less to lose if we smash a salaried worker in the face and take his women.:fight: Your women get wet in the panties watching men with physical strength and the bodies to match doing their job. They want our children but let you support them.

You people also don't have the balls to go to the clubs where men are men and women love it.

Wow I was on a roll but I'm sure women love to watch you write code as opposed to watch real men showing physical power.

BTW I have full medical, dental and vision. I have a 401K and an old time company provided pension. I am doing quite well and the company I worked for is solvent and will not need TARP money. I can also make your women cum with such intensity she will not remember your name. Did I mention I wear a Magnum condom but your women usually want it bare back.

vmurphy252
10-25-2009, 07:55 PM
Ummm, I happen to be a physically powerful person who also writes computer code...

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-25-2009, 08:12 PM
Some argue that sociopathy is an evolutionary advantageous trait. Think about it. A great deal of these loser guys are criminals to a certain extent. Lots to read on the subject, here is one link:

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-A-Sociopath/645788

Wow, there is an entire blog and resource for sociopaths. I'm going to read more about this.
http://www.sociopathworld.com/

Earl_the_Pearl
10-25-2009, 08:28 PM
Ummm, I happen to be a physically powerful person who also writes computer code...
You pussied out of a girlie karate course; don't piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-25-2009, 08:29 PM
Some argue that sociopathy is an evolutionary advantageous trait. Only when dealing with dancers.

vmurphy252
10-25-2009, 08:29 PM
Ummm, I moved. And, yeah, it was a girlie Karate course; my sensei was female. Wouldn't mind seeing her go a few rounds with you though...

And I don't think you could tell the difference between piss and rain.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-25-2009, 08:35 PM
Political science and economy are good degrees to get you a decent entry level job, or as a precursor to law school or business school. They are certainly more useful than art history or women's cultural studies..although the latter two are great and interesting disciplines.

Its always good to begin working while you are IN college. Either get an entry level job at a company doing something interesting, or take on internships. When I was in college, I began working at a company doing what I wanted to do, but wasn't getting a degree in. Pay was minimum wage. I was offered a job almost immediately after graduation. Within two years, I had gone from making $12,000 a year, to $40,000 a year. And I got a useless liberal arts degree.

Funny thing, I was able to immediately make twice THAT stripping, without any degree. Hell, it wouldn't have even mattered if I could read or write. Food for thought. I made more money in my first 2 months stripping, than I would have made in an entire year of working minimum wage.

Sorry about the threadjack. I see losers and winners with and without relationships. If you see these loser guys with girlfriends, chances are the girls are fuckups themselves. Sure they might be pretty and nice, but what do you learn once you get to know them?

Earl_the_Pearl
10-25-2009, 08:57 PM
Ummm, I moved. And, yeah, it was a girlie Karate course; my sensei was female. Wouldn't mind seeing her go a few rounds with you though...

And I don't think you could tell the difference between piss and rain.

A true martial art will not teach children or women as it was to prepare on for combat. In the US of A children and women are not permitted a combat MOS.

In my training I was regularly out scored by women of black belt rank. After I trained for a year or so my size, strength and weight made it a fair fight. After two years game set match.


1 Peter 3:7 Husbands, in a similar way, live with your wives with understanding since they are weaker than you are.

vmurphy252
10-25-2009, 09:04 PM
I admit defeat because that is all my girlie art taught me. You are much smarter, wiser, and physically imposing than I am. In fact, I am not sure I deserve to live compared to your glory. If you want to PM me your bank account information (with username and password, please), I will transfer all of my assets to you before, with your permission, I perform seppuku.

Golden_Rule
10-25-2009, 11:44 PM
Some argue that sociopathy is an evolutionary advantageous trait. Think about it. A great deal of these loser guys are criminals to a certain extent. Lots to read on the subject, here is one link:

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-A-Sociopath/645788

Wow, there is an entire blog and resource for sociopaths. I'm going to read more about this.
http://www.sociopathworld.com/

Are you truly basing your opinion on the writings of "Twilight Placebo"? How about something from the "American Journal of Medicine" instead. :)

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 12:00 AM
You pussied out of a girlie karate course; don't piss on my leg and tell me it is raining.


Ummm, I moved. And, yeah, it was a girlie Karate course; my sensei was female. Wouldn't mind seeing her go a few rounds with you though...

And I don't think you could tell the difference between piss and rain.


A true martial art will not teach children or women as it was to prepare on for combat. In the US of A children and women are not permitted a combat MOS.

In my training I was regularly out scored by women of black belt rank. After I trained for a year or so my size, strength and weight made it a fair fight. After two years game set match.


I admit defeat because that is all my girlie art taught me. You are much smarter, wiser, and physically imposing than I am. In fact, I am not sure I deserve to live compared to your glory. If you want to PM me your bank account information (with username and password, please), I will transfer all of my assets to you before, with your permission, I perform seppuku.

OK, you two knock it off because I'm the biggest bad ass in this here forum and I say so. You are both girlie men in my presence. Oh, and by the way I tuck the tip of my cock into the top of my crew socks to keep it from flopping about. So there. :cop:

:joke:

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 02:32 AM
[Um, I acknowledge that broad comedy is not my strong suit] :)

xdamage
10-26-2009, 05:39 AM
Some argue that sociopathy is an evolutionary advantageous trait. Think about it. A great deal of these loser guys are criminals to a certain extent. Lots to read on the subject, here is one link:

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-A-Sociopath/645788

Wow, there is an entire blog and resource for sociopaths. I'm going to read more about this.
http://www.sociopathworld.com/

They may well have been the Alpha males or leaders in tribes, the one's who take what they want without guilt.

xdamage
10-26-2009, 06:05 AM
Yes they are but we don't give a shit because we have more physical strength and less to lose if we smash a salaried worker in the face and take his women.:fight: Your women get wet in the panties watching men with physical strength and the bodies to match doing their job. They want our children but let you support them.

You people also don't have the balls to go to the clubs where men are men and women love it.

Wow I was on a roll but I'm sure women love to watch you write code as opposed to watch real men showing physical power.

BTW I have full medical, dental and vision. I have a 401K and an old time company provided pension. I am doing quite well and the company I worked for is solvent and will not need TARP money. I can also make your women cum with such intensity she will not remember your name. Did I mention I wear a Magnum condom but your women usually want it bare back.

Okay you got to me laugh hard and a touché is warranted.

And there is, from observation, plenty of truth in there as well that the some (many?) women can be intensely attracted to raw physical strength, far more then they will ever feel of over intellectual pursuits.

But I more or less do what I want in life, chasing things that interest me. If women are interested in me for that, great, if not, who cares? There is no point in being slaves to what everyone else thinks of us and to be honest, I love having a woman in my life but I'd feel nuts inside if I didn't have time to pursue my other interests.

One thing that has always kept me reasonably happy is I actually look forwarded to going to work the vast majority of the time. That is 40-80hrs of my week per life (more then half my waking time) that I'm not spending hating it. That is part of my life compensation as far as I'm concerned.

A job that pays more does not necessarily leave a person happy. Some choose less stress, and that is what works for them. Some try to find something that interests them and that is a big part of the reward. Some simply are interested in making money (and even if they do, are not always happy).

FWIW there is nothing wrong with being a salaried or represented employee. A fair equal salary for an honest days work is fantastic, and many people are happy with it and the lives they lead outside of work. A lot of men are so paid.

My only real point was that our society judges us guys pretty harshly at times, and it's not all roses. Even a guy who makes an honest living may be judged negatively because he is not a multi-millionaire, where if a woman is paid the same we see that as an improvement over unfair wage practices.

We're still quite a long ways from women being brought up with the pressure to earn big money in the job market, and maybe if they were they'd earn more of it too. OTOH they'd also feel the stress of others who judge them instantly and negatively when they don't make millions (the majority).

xdamage
10-26-2009, 06:25 AM
Political science and economy are good degrees to get you a decent entry level job, or as a precursor to law school or business school. They are certainly more useful than art history or women's cultural studies..although the latter two are great and interesting disciplines.


I agree. The reality is there aren't many money making businesses that need a full time Poli Sci, Economist or Historian on staff. It is a starting point but someone wanting money now really would have to get an MBA or Law degree and still... see my point below...



Its always good to begin working while you are IN college. Either get an entry level job at a company doing something interesting, or take on internships. When I was in college, I began working at a company doing what I wanted to do, but wasn't getting a degree in. Pay was minimum wage. I was offered a job almost immediately after graduation. Within two years, I had gone from making $12,000 a year, to $40,000 a year. And I got a useless liberal arts degree.


Yep. I wish my son had listened; he is a hard head and having trouble now finding work since he is just another kid finishing a degree. My daughter caved, worked in her field each summer and did some work during the year, and was instantly hired on graduation. We looking for newly degree'd to hire actually factor that in, and to be honest, working does contribute to a persons maturity.



Funny thing, I was able to immediately make twice THAT stripping, without any degree. Hell, it wouldn't have even mattered if I could read or write. Food for thought. I made more money in my first 2 months stripping, than I would have made in an entire year of working minimum wage.


You can. And there are few jobs guys can do that would pay more then opening positions. However there is no point in pretending it's all roses either. It is a trade off. What we want now vs improving the odds later. As time goes on it's going to end up being that others who started working at 18, or 21 or whatever will have many years of resume building experience behind them (as well as actual experiences in their field). Later in life the lack of experience may impact on what one can make in their 40s-67, even in the 30s. People make their choices.

The only thing that doesn't work is ignoring reality, and hoping to win the lottery (depending on some huge lucky breaks), and then later being pissed at the world for choosing short term profits over long term. Short term can even work if people invest it, but most of us just spend whatever we earn so yea, people need a plan for how they are going to earn a good salary in their 40-67 range or probably they won't be earning much.

It's our human nature to tend to choose short term gains that we can benefit from now over long term planning (hey, we might not even be here to enjoy it). An author I respect and Psychologist said most people live their lives like drunken sailors, planning about 5 years in advance maximum. He argued that is probably a good evolutionary strategy, but in a world the average life expectancy has increased by nearly 30 years is leaving a lot of people poor in their 40s and beyond.



Sorry about the threadjack. I see losers and winners with and without relationships. If you see these loser guys with girlfriends, chances are the girls are fuckups themselves. Sure they might be pretty and nice, but what do you learn once you get to know them?

I do too.

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 04:54 PM
They may well have been the Alpha males or leaders in tribes, the one's who take what they want without guilt.

I'd disagree that it would be leader types once you pass a certain point in social evolution.

In small tribes control can be maintained through fear alone, which is certainly how a sociopath would command obedience.

In large scale social orders though even the most fearsome dictator has to make certain diplomatic overtures to remain in power.

As society evolves strength is still an issue but more and more leaders require the ability to empathize and bring together coalitions of non-like minded people. That isn't a sociopath's strong suit.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-26-2009, 09:01 PM
You can. And there are few jobs guys can do that would pay more then opening positions. However there is no point in pretending it's all roses either. It is a trade off. What we want now vs improving the odds later. As time goes on it's going to end up being that others who started working at 18, or 21 or whatever will have many years of resume building experience behind them (as well as actual experiences in their field). Later in life the lack of experience may impact on what one can make in their 40s-67, even in the 30s. People make their choices.


It doesn't have to be a full trade off. One can strip while they are in school AND working part-time in a legit internship, etc. Its really tough, but it can be done. I did it, and I'm not particularly smart nor hardworking.

Then, when you get that entry-level job, or decide to get a post-secondary degree, you can continue dancing on the side, and on weekends, until you are comfortable enough with your income and lifestyle to give up the dancing.

Then, of course, there are always the entrepeneaurs who do well self-employed, and don't need to go the corporate route.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-26-2009, 09:04 PM
Are you truly basing your opinion on the writings of "Twilight Placebo"? How about something from the "American Journal of Medicine" instead. :)

And what happens if I don't? Are you gonna give me an F on my report and call my parents? I was just outlining some broad concepts. Its a controversial subject in evolutionary psychology, but it exists. Perhaps its more metaphysical in nature. If it further interests you, do the research on your time. Cool?8)

Golden_Rule
10-27-2009, 12:02 AM
And what happens if I don't? Are you gonna give me an F on my report and call my parents?

{sigh}

1) Of course not. 2) What if I did, why would it concern you? Well I guess calling your parents ought to... but how likely is that. :) It would simply be one persons opinion. It has only the power you give it.


I was just outlining some broad concepts. Its a controversial subject in evolutionary psychology, but it exists. Perhaps its more metaphysical in nature. If it further interests you, do the research on your time. Cool?8)

Of course. The only reason I mentioned it was curiosity about, and calling attention to, what different people consider valid sources of information. My own opinion is that the net is so vast and brings in so many thoughts from different sources that one has to be truly careful about what is considered information and what is thought of as simply white noise. [yes, that applies to my own musings as well]

Which is why I can't see how come certain people get so upset by ideas they don't like and feel a need to silence them in forums such as these. Again, it has only the power one gives it, so I always suggest they do what one does with white noise if it offends them and tune it out.