View Full Version : guys always have girlfriends
xdamage
10-27-2009, 03:16 AM
I'd disagree that it would be leader types once you pass a certain point in social evolution.
In small tribes control can be maintained through fear alone, which is certainly how a sociopath would command obedience.
Right, when I said "tribes" I was thinking smaller groups of people. Towns/cities/etc., didn't appear until humans were quite far along evolution wise, though even so dictators and kings who use force can thrive, but there is more push back for personal freedoms/rights. But even so, our human brains and instincts are built upon the eons of time before tows/civilizations appeared. Our complex brains still containing structures of less intelligent precursor animals; our genes, still 97-98% similar to various other mammals (mice through primates). And just as nobody blames animal behavior and instincts on "society", just as we assume that animals engage in instinct without being aware of why, we also engage in instinctive behaviors without being particular aware of why or even that we do it. We're just not use to viewing ourselves in this way.
xdamage
10-27-2009, 03:41 AM
It doesn't have to be a full trade off. One can strip while they are in school AND working part-time in a legit internship, etc. Its really tough, but it can be done. I did it, and I'm not particularly smart nor hardworking.
Then, when you get that entry-level job, or decide to get a post-secondary degree, you can continue dancing on the side, and on weekends, until you are comfortable enough with your income and lifestyle to give up the dancing.
Then, of course, there are always the entrepeneaurs who do well self-employed, and don't need to go the corporate route.
Yep. I worked two jobs (or worked full time while going to school full time) for most of my 20s (and 16hr days were common in my 30s). It can be done, and it is tough, but doing so stacks the odds in our favor.
Still, you say you're not hard working, but look around at the people who no-way they would work two jobs or go to school and work (who barely work one). Hard working people are often their own worst critics ;) To the degree people are lazy vs willing to work hard and give up free time to play, it seems to just be a personality trait some men and women have. Hard working types are not guaranteed to succeed but their odds are better.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-27-2009, 03:16 PM
{sigh}
1) Of course not. 2) What if I did, why would it concern you? Well I guess calling your parents ought to... but how likely is that. :) It would simply be one persons opinion. It has only the power you give it.
Of course. The only reason I mentioned it was curiosity about, and calling attention to, what different people consider valid sources of information. My own opinion is that the net is so vast and brings in so many thoughts from different sources that one has to be truly careful about what is considered information and what is thought of as simply white noise. [yes, that applies to my own musings as well]
Which is why I can't see how come certain people get so upset by ideas they don't like and feel a need to silence them in forums such as these. Again, it has only the power one gives it, so I always suggest they do what one does with white noise if it offends them and tune it out.
Why so serious man? Its not just an internet concept though. I've been tuning you out for years anyway, I'll just go ahead and continue with that.
erotictonic
10-27-2009, 05:25 PM
Why so serious man? Its not just an internet concept though. I've been tuning you out for years anyway, I'll just go ahead and continue with that.
Then why post to him if you are just going to tune out the answers.....
just curious.
She may be referring to people who are working in non union positions that seemingly are living the good life.
Let's be honest. Society doesn't paint men who make a unionized fixed salary as wildy successful winners. Even if they make far more then most people do in the 3rd world, they're compared negatively against the highest paid people in our society.
Besides she got her degree in History and Economy, and see feels these guys have "lesser" degrees then her, yet they have jobs making more and she is pissed her choice of degrees hasn't opened the doors to higher paying jobs.
But how many companies need a full time Historian or Economist? How many union jobs can you think of are there for that? And would she want it anyway? Making the same salary as everyone else might not appeal if she is expecting to be paid the big bucks for a 4 year college degree which she feels is very valuable.
The truth is statistically the odds are stacked against women; and men whose parents don't pay for college; and by race; and more.
But it still remains true that any man or women living in the USA today, who is young, healthy, and has an education has about the best starting odds you can get. After that though it is still up to them, including maybe getting a new education.
Some degrees are basically useless except to get a foot in the door, and many successful people don't have degrees, at some point an adult is responsible for their outcomes from there on.
What I do believe though is that if a person succeeds, 99% chance is they will say "That was all due to me, the biggest variable was ME and MY WILL, not to everyone else, or my starting hand, I did it!"
And if they fail, 99% chance they will say "That was all due to them, the biggest variable was EVERYONE ELSE, and THE DECK WAS STACKED AGAINST ME, they did it!"
That's human nature. The one thing I do see though is that when men and women fail, we're less likely to accept blaming failure on others from men. If a guy fails to thrive we call him a LOSER and we're less likely to say "aww you poor thing, life is unfair". And that difference may well tend to force men to pick up the ball, be stoic in the face of adversity, keep on pushing back.
That stoicism in the face of everything is a trait that we perceive as inner strength, and it is trait that is attractive, even if it is unrealistically cocky, we perceive it as self-confidence.
Just remember, these guys do hear "LOSER" from society a lot. That's the less glamorous side.
First of all she is not talking about making union wages. She is talking about making a fair wage for her work. It is not the same thing.
Why is it when anyone wants equal rights or equal pay for the same work it is painted as " entitlement, socialist, whiner" thinking?
You talked about how you worked hard. How would you feel if every job you had ... no matter how hard you worked ... you never made the same salary as the woman before you? When you have busted your ass time and time again to be told that you are at the wage ceiling for your position. But the slacking bitching woman, who you cover for all the time because you are told you have to , is complaining about her pay. Her pay is more then you make and your in the same damn position?
I think you would singing a different tune.
Yes, the guy that held my former position before me made almost 10k more than me, with less experience, less education AND he worked less hours and just generally fucked up constantly. Even after 3 years at the job (the amount of time he was with the company) I STILL made 8.5k LESS than he did when he left.
It's really all over the place down here. No one even suggests it doesn't exist, they just laugh at us poor stupid women for even wanting equal pay.
Oh, and if the world was a place where men were paid less and valued less, then I would say YES, we would pity them. Not that I'm even asking for pity, I'm just pissed about it. I work hard, but for example, one resume company I contract for pays all it's writers a different fee, but nearly all the men make $400 a piece, where the women make closer to $140. Many of these guys making $400 are no where near as good as I am (I have had to do rewrites for several of them, because their resumes are poor quality and never had a rewrite myself), yet I make $140 - $200. It's blatant sexism and although you may be lucky and live in an area where it is not as obvious, many of us are not so lucky. ;)
ETA - If I'm giving the impression I want pity, that is not it. I want change.
Alot of this has to do with the southern mentality. I lived most of my life in Michigan. I never had this problem until I moved to Missouri. The good ole boy network is alive and well. I run into this all the time now. Even the women here surport this mentality for some damn reason.
God forbid you say a word about it. You end up being labeled a trouble maker and soon out of work.
I will be moving in a year or so. If I never step foot in the south again I will be happy.
OK, Ive noticed a lot that even asshole, losers still charm the women.
But now, I'm court ordered to this rehab for a DUI (no comments pls unless you've actually breathalyzed yourself) and I notice that all these ugly, beaten down junkies have girlfriends and cute normal ones at that.
None of the girls do.
Why is it subpar dudes are still entitled to relationships that they claim to not even want when so many women can barely give it away?
I'm not trying to be that judgmental, but loneliness and lack of sex create envy and pissiness about how if I were a dude I could fuck up, have a cute girl, cheat on her, and still have chicks wanting it.
I would chalk it up to myself, but none of the girls have anybody.
Keep in mind that you are probably looking at alcoholics. Alcoholism breeds codependence no matter what a person looks like. Chances are their fathers were also dead beat drunks and they are hoping to change him. There is a great book written about this called Women who love too much.
It is also a matter of perspective. What do they really want? Do you think some fucked up guy wants a loving, caring, and mutally benifical relationship? HELL NO! They just want someone they can use like another drug. Do you think the women that are with these men really value who and what they are? HELL NO! They dont even know who they are but if they love him enough then they will be somebody because their existance is based on him, just like their past is based on enabling parents.
Gia2608
10-27-2009, 08:30 PM
Quit watching the assholes and start watching the people who have it all together. I can put a microscope on any segment of the population, and if that's all I'm watching, that's all I'll see.
That's actually pretty brilliant.
xdamage
10-27-2009, 08:57 PM
Why is it when anyone wants equal rights or equal pay for the same work it is painted as " entitlement, socialist, whiner" thinking?
You need to go back and read everything. You clearly didn't read it all, and if you want to put words in anyone's mouth use your own.
She actually isn't talking about equal work.
She has a degree from a major California University in History and Economics. Her peers who happen to be male, have "lesser" degrees then her own important History and Economics degree. They have presumably been working since graduation full time (as it is doubtful they'd be stripping so I assume full time work in their fields), and are now making 4x as much as her, and she is blaming this outcome on her being a woman.
And no, I've worked a long time... most companies have pay scales or equal pay for various positions. There is some discrepancy, which is a problem, and on some occasions nepotism (women are often the beneficiaries of that too), but it is not 400% for the same work!
A 25% pay discrepancy would suck, but 400% really isn't comparing apples to apples.
There could be dozens of possible reasons why they make 400% more, like maybe they've been working 16+ hour days in their fields, or maybe they are in fields that pay well vs History and Economics?, or maybe she has been stripping and not working full time in her field or she is too tired after stripping to work as hard as her peers do? We don't know. She doesn't say.
Not a single person objects to anyone wanting equal pay for equal work and if you had read the thread you'd know that. In fact had you read it all you'd see I encouraged my own daughter to purse a good salary and she see is being paid equally (more actually).
But what is more likely?
That these companies said "Yep, Historian and Economist would be a huge starting salary if only you were a guy, so we're going to hire guys with home economics degrees and pay them 4x more then you?"
or
That they are not doing equal work, that there are other reasons why they've moved so far ahead in pay and the OP is being entitlement minded? Pissed and blaming her job situation on her sex?
I'd vote for the later, but again, if she knows of a company that is paying men 4x as much as women for the same exact work, OUT them now please. Sue them, take their money, and put them out of business. They deserve it.
I could be wrong, but if there really is such a company then sue them please. They deserve to go out of business and the OP to get a big settlement.
kittygirl
10-27-2009, 09:45 PM
sue anybody, I'm happy to have a job. Women don't sue like that, sorry.
I know I'm very educated but that's the brakes, Oh well, teach me something.
You need to go back and read everything. You clearly didn't read it all, and if you want to put words in anyone's mouth use your own.
She actually isn't talking about equal work.
She has a degree from a major California University in History and Economics. Her peers who happen to be male, have "lesser" degrees then her own important History and Economics degree. They have presumably been working since graduation full time (as it is doubtful they'd be stripping so I assume full time work in their fields), and are now making 4x as much as her, and she is blaming this outcome on her being a woman.
And no, I've worked a long time... most companies have pay scales or equal pay for various positions. There is some discrepancy, which is a problem, and on some occasions nepotism (women are often the beneficiaries of that too), but it is not 400% for the same work!
A 25% pay discrepancy would suck, but 400% really isn't comparing apples to apples.
There could be dozens of possible reasons why they make 400% more, like maybe they've been working 16+ hour days in their fields, or maybe they are in fields that pay well vs History and Economics?, or maybe she has been stripping and not working full time in her field or she is too tired after stripping to work as hard as her peers do? We don't know. She doesn't say.
Not a single person objects to anyone wanting equal pay for equal work and if you had read the thread you'd know that. In fact had you read it all you'd see I encouraged my own daughter to purse a good salary and she see is being paid equally (more actually).
But what is more likely?
That these companies said "Yep, Historian and Economist would be a huge starting salary if only you were a guy, so we're going to hire guys with home economics degrees and pay them 4x more then you?"
or
That they are not doing equal work, that there are other reasons why they've moved so far ahead in pay and the OP is being entitlement minded? Pissed and blaming her job situation on her sex?
I'd vote for the later, but again, if she knows of a company that is paying men 4x as much as women for the same exact work, OUT them now please. Sue them, take their money, and put them out of business. They deserve it.
I could be wrong, but if there really is such a company then sue them please. They deserve to go out of business and the OP to get a big settlement.
I have read the thread and she is talking about equal work at the university. Hell she left with honors. So what if she did strip at some point? Does that make her degree any less valid? No the men didn't have to strip because they got paid a decent wage for their efforts. Why the hell do you think women strip at all???????? I mean do you really think that if women did get paid well for their work they would still strip????? Even after college??????
My point here is that you have no idea how frustrating it is. As I said in a different post on this thread there is a huge difference how women are treated in the north and south. I wouldn't have believed it either until I moved here and experianced it for myself. I am moving! And if god had blessed me with a better body I sure as hell would be stripping.
You have no idea what it is like to be a woman anywhere in this country so don't even pretend you do just because you have a daughter.
xdamage
10-28-2009, 08:28 AM
I have read the thread and she is talking about equal work at the university. Hell she left with honors. So what if she did strip at some point? Does that make her degree any less valid? No the men didn't have to strip because they got paid a decent wage for their efforts. Why the hell do you think women strip at all???????? I mean do you really think that if women did get paid well for their work they would still strip????? Even after college??????
Seriously no, I grew up in CA. The laws in the state run universities are very clear and have been since affirmative action was in play in the 80s. In fact CA has been strong on equal pay for equal work for a long time. She did not get paid 1/4th the pay of men for the same work in the university for the same work. I know better so BS.
If you didn't understand the point about how some people spend more time working in their fields, some do a lot of other things and then get behind in their fields, I'm sorry but I'm not going to repeat it. It's common sense and shouldn't require explaining except to people who have never actually run a business or done hiring.
My point here is that you have no idea how frustrating it is. As I said in a different post on this thread there is a huge difference how women are treated in the north and south. I wouldn't have believed it either until I moved here and experianced it for myself. I am moving! And if god had blessed me with a better body I sure as hell would be stripping.
You have no idea what it is like to be a woman anywhere in this country so don't even pretend you do just because you have a daughter.
Oh I agree there is a difference, but you also don't know what it is like to grow up as a man and face the pressure of having society judge you harshly if you fail in the job market. Which is why my point. Don't assume being a male in the job market is not stressful. It is tremendously stressful, but we don't say "poor baby" to men, and so they learn to suck it up and cope or fail stoically. You really have no idea how we feel inside though even if we don't ask for pity when we do fail.
Look, if you look at job and pay distribution in our own country, and around the world, even when you compare all males who are of the predominate race in their respective countries, there is a HUGE distribution of pay ranges from poverty to extreme wealth across every culture.
You can't blame that on sex. There are hundreds of reasons why people end up on the bottom or the top of those lists. And it is incredibly frustrating and terrifying for a man as well too that he needs his job and lively hood.
Women are jumping into this now and they should do so. That is great! But they are not immune from the variables that effect men, and the odds are, they will be lucky to make a basic living just like males. Chances are if a woman hops into the job market the odds are she will not be wealthy, and be lucky to make a living.
But it is also true that if you ask people in their jobs for their own opinion of their situations, they commonly believe that they are not earning enough, that those who earn more are not earning the difference. They commonly blame the difference on something, anything to avoid the feeling that maybe it has something to do with their own choices or work habits. Sometimes it is due to matters they cannot control. Sometimes it is not. This is normal human thinking and men do it, just they can't use sex as their reason so they use other reasons.
That is why we need studies and statistics; and the studies and statistics we have do show a discrepancy. But even when the discrepancies are fixed, still the majority of women won't be successful just as most men aren't, and still the majority will feel that they deserve to be paid more (that is human nature that transcends sex).
princessjas
10-28-2009, 09:29 AM
^^K, I've tried my damndest to stay out of this, but I just can't keep quiet at this point.
The 400% was probably an inflated number due to frustration. It's damn annoying and pisses us off, which can make people exaggerate things. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen tho.
Personally, I found you comparing all women to your mother who thought a receptionist and a Dr were the same thing to be very insulting. My example was of a less educated man who did the exact same thing as me, but put in less hours and was such a fuckup that people constantly bitched and told me how happy they were to have me there in his place...that is comparing apples to apples and not being "delusional."
I'm not sure where you are going with your attempts to justify wage differences by pointing out the additional pressure to succeed that is placed on men. As I've already pointed out, women have their societal pressures too, which place just as much stress on us. Just because the pressures are different doesn't make them any less real.
All of your rationalizations just sound like typical male chauvinism. Telling us poor dumb women that we REALLY aren't doing equal work and couldn't possibly understand this. All the statistics lie and we are just being whiney if we want equality. It's all in our "delusional" little heads. Yeah, sure it is. ::)
We aren't given a free pass to fail or pitied when we do. I have no clue where you got that. Ever seen a single mom supporting her kids while her ex makes more than her but does not pay child support? If she can't adequately provide for her kids she is called a bad mother and a fuck up. She doesn't get support or pity, at least not in the world I live in. Her ex on the other hand will face very little stigma for not supporting his kids...they'll be all sorts of excuses made. He can't afford it due to running up debt, he remarried and now has other responsibilities, she's just a gold-digger for asking him to pay less than HALF, etc. If he happens to provide health insurance or pay $200 a month he is put on a pedestal as a GREAT guy, when in reality he is paying FAR less than half the expense in raising his children, that he only makes an effort to see maybe once a month. I don't think women are the ones that get undeserved sympathy in this society.
vmurphy252
10-28-2009, 10:47 AM
^Yeah, but you're just a girl... ;D
xdamage
10-28-2009, 03:46 PM
I'm not sure where you are going with your attempts to justify wage differences by pointing out the additional pressure to succeed that is placed on men.
This was the same problem as the 16 year old issue and was an utter waste of time then.
I am not justifying a wage difference (just like those guys were not justifying sleeping with 16 year olds). You kept putting words in our mouth then and your doing it now so I'll stop it now.
The problem here is you don't want to argue the valid points because it wouldn't be as fun as ranting about a stereotypical view. Our views were atypical and you simply didn't understand it, just like you're not understanding this one.
So your brain can only grasp that we/I must be promoting a simplistic stereotypical view because the only possible choices are:
The stereotype that men promote a wage difference (which is full of drama and fun to get hot headed about),
or
Complete and utter agreement that women are pure victims.
A or B. No other choices will your brain accept so you want to coral our views into your narrow limits.
Do not put words in my mouth. There is a more complex explanation that is not either of those views. You're not capable of understanding it because the more complex explanation involves some realization that the wage difference cannot be entirely closed until women change their way of thinking and behavior too.
That women are part of the society that has caused the wage difference, that they are contributing to a kind of weakness that holds them down, and to really close the gap will mean they are going to have to change including:
1.) They are going to have to stop working for less and raising lawsuits; they'll need to be valid claims of course or it will backfire.
2.) They are going to have to stop doing things like bringing in cookies, or flirting or anything which makes people like them, that a guy would not do. It is business, and the like-ability contests contribute to a general ongoing problem.
3.) As a society we're going to have to stop coddling women who fail in the job market and start treating them like males; if they fail, ask what could you be doing better? Likewise those people in Rehab... stop treating the women different the guys. If the guys are losers then so are the women. This is what equality is about - not selective, but equal treatment including the negatives.
5.) Women are going to have to choose. They probably can't have everything in life. If the want a career that pays top dollar they may have to make the same kinds of sacrifices men traditionally make, and that may mean less involvement with family (if kids at all). That or we try laws that let men have more family time but it will probably mean a lowering of top pay for everyone, not a raising for women.
None of this has anything to do with not wanting equal wages, but it does have to do with everything else has to be equalized as well. Until that happens women it won't be equal. It's not an A or B choice. It's C .. middle choice that promotes equal wages, and likewise women to change as well as the males.
princessjas
10-28-2009, 05:10 PM
This was the same problem as the 16 year old issue and was an utter waste of time then.
I am not justifying a wage difference (just like those guys were not justifying sleeping with 16 year olds). You kept putting words in our mouth then and your doing it now so I'll stop it now.
The problem here is you don't want to argue the valid points because it wouldn't be as fun as ranting about a stereotypical view. Our views were atypical and you simply didn't understand it, just like you're not understanding this one.
Have you ever heard me even mention wage differences except in this thread? I don't think it's fair to say I'm putting words in your mouth because I disagree with you or to imply that I simply have fun ranting about things.
So your brain can only grasp that we/I must be promoting a simplistic stereotypical view because the only possible choices are:
The stereotype that men promote a wage difference (which is full of drama and fun to get hot headed about),
or
Complete and utter agreement that women are pure victims.
A or B. No other choices will your brain accept so you want to coral our views into your narrow limits.
When has my thinking ever been black and white? In one thread months ago that we disagreed in? Go back and read the bolded statements and think long and hard about how those stamements come across. It's either sexist or it's personal. So which is it X?
Do not put words in my mouth. There is a more complex explanation that is not either of those views. You're not capable of understanding it because the more complex explanation involves some realization that the wage difference cannot be entirely closed until women change their way of thinking and behavior too.
That women are part of the society that has caused the wage difference, that they are contributing to a kind of weakness that holds them down, and to really close the gap will mean they are going to have to change including:
1.) They are going to have to stop working for less and raising lawsuits; they'll need to be valid claims of course or it will backfire.
2.) They are going to have to stop doing things like bringing in cookies, or flirting or anything which makes people like them, that a guy would not do. It is business, and the like-ability contests contribute to a general ongoing problem.
3.) As a society we're going to have to stop coddling women who fail in the job market and start treating them like males; if they fail, ask what could you be doing better? Likewise those people in Rehab... stop treating the women different the guys. If the guys are losers then so are the women. This is what equality is about - not selective, but equal treatment including the negatives.
5.) Women are going to have to choose. They probably can't have everything in life. If the want a career that pays top dollar they may have to make the same kinds of sacrifices men traditionally make, and that may mean less involvement with family (if kids at all). That or we try laws that let men have more family time but it will probably mean a lowering of top pay for everyone, not a raising for women.
None of this has anything to do with not wanting equal wages, but it does have to do with everything else has to be equalized as well. Until that happens women it won't be equal. It's not an A or B choice. It's C .. middle choice that promotes equal wages, and likewise women to change as well as the males.
I am perfectly capable of understanding complex concepts thank you very much. (And might I inquire about why you are suddenly so hot to imply I'm an idiot? I disagreed with you but sheesh.)
1. It's hard to do that when you have bills to pay and children to support. In an ideal world it is the perfect solution, but I live in reality not lala-land where I can turn down a decent paying job because of issues like this. I don't even have the luxury of risking a job by complaining about it.
2. I was ask to bring in baked goods and didn't want to get on my bosses bad side and risk being fired. I doubt any men were asked to do the same, but is it my fault my boss asked this of me? As for flirting, I don't know where that came from but I absolutely did NOT flirt with my boss, although he flirted with me and was actually quiet brazen and made comments about wanting to see me in a wet t-shirt contest.
3. I don't see this happening. When I fail, I'm scorned and expected to do better/try harder, which I do. I don't even bitch about unequal treatment, like you have been implying. I simply tolerate it with the realization that I will have to do better than most men to succeed. Where are these women being coddled?
I agree that many women also contribute to this phenomenon. Down here many women don't think that women deserve equal pay. The reason? Men have families to support....I dunno why they seem to think that women don't, but that is the reason most give.
xdamage
10-29-2009, 01:38 AM
It is unfortunate that women don't believe they deserve equal pay down in the south. It sucks.
I'll just say this. I don't subscribe to the notion that women are weak or incapable. I never have. I also don't believe men control everything, and that women are purely victims of society, only responsible for the good parts, just victims of the bad parts.
I actually think women have helped shape our society, including a lot of the patterns that need to be changed.
But there is no way to have one's cake and eat it too. If women are participants in shaping society, if they are able and making choices, then it also means that they do have some power (and responsibility) to continue to make changes as well. And they have. Both men and women have made many changes in thinking and continue to do so.
It is hard for a woman and I get that (likewise hard for men in ways). I'm not promoting unfair wages and never have so I resent any implication of it. But I do believe if we raise our daughters to think like victims we screw them for life. We leave them weak and like all victims, contributors to their victim-hood.
Teaching them they make choices, and are responsible for outcomes does actually give them the power to guide their own life. But it also means that yea, if they are making choices that contribute to a negative social pattern for short-term personal gains that is fine, but then they need to own it, not blame it entirely on males.
Men who are abusing power need to change, and we need to force that via laws and well, enforcing it. Pushing it. But women have to participate too, including maybe not taking short term gains; including maybe not encouraging husbands or family members to profit unfairly (if one has a husband or father profitting off unfair treatment, and one enjoys the money, one is just as guilty as the man); including taking a hard look at how they behave in the workplace to avoid stereotypes and promoting the notion that women are mothers or sex objects; taking on adult responsibility for the failures as well as success.
Even if the odds are stacked against us, it doesn't mean we don't contribute to our own success or failure. That's the message that leaves behind people who succeed. I guess what I really despise is the popular victim think notion that all evils in society are due to men, women are just helpless victims who don't contribute to anything but the good parts. It's just more of the same sexist crap that we've believed all along, just spun slightly differently.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-29-2009, 09:38 AM
As for flirting, I don't know where that came from but I absolutely did NOT flirt with my boss, although he flirted with me and was actually quiet brazen and made comments about wanting to see me in a wet t-shirt contest.
Get a lawyer that hates men and you could be set for life.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-29-2009, 02:14 PM
I live in the south and have never seen wage discrepancy based on gender. I've seen it based on age more frequently, and certainly based on experience. But in the fields I've worked, and the field that the females in my family work, its all equal; think engineering, accounting, IT, and sales.
xdamage
10-29-2009, 07:58 PM
I live in the south and have never seen wage discrepancy based on gender. I've seen it based on age more frequently, and certainly based on experience. But in the fields I've worked, and the field that the females in my family work, its all equal; think engineering, accounting, IT, and sales.
It definitely depends on one's field. Some fields are further along in regards to equal treatment of employees.
In the fields I've worked in women are paid fairly, and likewise expected to be all about business. I've also passed on jobs that offended me because I wanted no part of the business or people, and the fact is there are ignorant fucktards who strongly promote racism and sexism.
I'll be the first to tell you men abuse power. Correction - people abuse power. But let me say my PoV differently.
I love the hell out of my daughter, and I know the odds are she could end up having to take care of herself. I spent more time with her then my son to help her get a good start.
But ... I really didn't pull punches with her. She is by no means weak or frail. If she is going to make it, it will depend on her strength of will to fight for it. If she is going to be taken seriously it will depend on her to use her will and brains to make it happen. She will have to put her time in and prove herself before she is making a huge salary. And chances are she will have to work more then 8hrs a day at the higher paying positions; just reality. Even now she is working 12-14 hr days and like me, travel time doesn't count. If she travels over the weekend she gets $0.00 more for it. But it will pay off in the long run.
The odds are stacked against her as compared with my son, but they are not insurmountable odds. A lot of it just depends on her to believe she can do it, then do it. I do believe there are statistical difference between men and women, but the weak/frail, women are victims mindset that both men and women promote is still obviously deeply rooted in our society.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-29-2009, 10:15 PM
I don't believe the odds are stacked against her, or any woman. And I left a very profitable and lucrative job in oil because it was definitely a boy's network, and I felt like my soul died a bit inside each day, even though I could have been a millionaire by now. Wait scratch that, I should have put up with the abuse for that amount of money. :(
xdamage
10-30-2009, 10:07 AM
I don't believe the odds are stacked against her, or any woman.
I see some stacking but I think it's cool if you don't perceive it.
I see men that assume women will not go the distance because they'll want to go have families so why groom them for a top level position? that assumption tends to treat the women different in subtle ways; an assumption women cannot be objective and are too emotional to handle stress; an assumption women will use sexuality to get ahead in jobs, so why take them seriously? jobs that should be about getting the work done and not about who can gain the most sexual favor with the bosses; and more.
It's also up to women not to feed into those stereotypes if they want men not to keep assuming them.
And I left a very profitable and lucrative job in oil because it was definitely a boy's network, and I felt like my soul died a bit inside each day, even though I could have been a millionaire by now. Wait scratch that, I should have put up with the abuse for that amount of money. :(
It's a choice, though if business is to have a more female flavor (a good old girl's network?) it will require them to stick it out, add their personalities, create their own businesses with whatever flavor they feel works, etc.
That said, my SO works with 90% women and still complains that is non-stop fighting and power plays. I've worked in her field in the past and I remember why I quit. Far too much stress and far too many people who hate their jobs, so there is no guarantee that if the majority of people are females that the job will be awesome either.
In the end it is work, people competing to get ahead, stressful.
FWIW though perhaps more guys would dance if it was a viable option, but what is the market for male dancers? Most of us didn't look good enough and besides there was virtually zero market for it when I grew up.
It's not like there are a lot of opportunities for us to make several hundred (let alone thousands) a night at 18-21. Maybe sports, but what percentage of men make it in sports?
One reason you see guys who end up selling drugs and getting involved in crime is that starting jobs for us, like for women tend to pay starting salaries (i.e., crappy).
Part of what makes the statistics complicated is the same things are not always being compared. Like are people talking about starting salaries? mid-life salaries? or the (often age 40+) highest paid people who represent a small percentage of the population? If people are talking about the later, then it is just confusing to mix that up with what the statistical differences at 18-21.
And just as people can make a lot in some gigs, like sports, some are time limited. You have to look at how those people did long term. Do they keep up or fall behind the salaries of others later in life, others who have spent more time in their fields during the earlier years of their careers?
The women I work with are just like the guys. They work, they dress professionally, and are paid comparably. It's that simple, but they've also been working for a LONG time in their jobs. We hired them for their experience and work ethics. It can happen if women want that.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-30-2009, 12:24 PM
One reason you see guys who end up selling drugs and getting involved in crime is that starting jobs for us, like for women tend to pay starting salaries (i.e., crappy).
Do you really think we're so dumb that we don't know this? I could multi-quote your entire post and break it down, but I feel like you're talking to us like we are in kindergarten.
The only place where the gender pay differential strongly exists is in blue-collar industries.
There are less women in top positions because less women aspire to be there.
Of course there is a glass ceiling and a good old boy network that comes into play in various levels based on industry. You have to either infilitrate and endure them, or opt out for a more fullfiling and less stressful life.
I am full of contradictions, maybe I'll come back later and try to write a more cogent paragraph.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-30-2009, 01:28 PM
The only place where the gender pay differential strongly exists is in blue-collar industries.
I remember the equal worth crap being used to set pay. That says a receptionist who sits in a climate controlled environment with little danger of being injured on the job should be paid as much as a roofer who works out in all weather with a much greater chance of being injured.
If that happened who would be a roofer if he could get the same pay shuffling paper in an office.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Roofers can make damn good money. I had a roofing company owner as a client though. They are damn hard to insure though.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-30-2009, 01:53 PM
Roofers can make damn good money. I had a roofing company owner as a client though. They are damn hard to insure though.
My point; how many women roofers are there?
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-30-2009, 02:59 PM
My point; how many women roofers are there?
What is your point? How many male day care workers are there? People still tend to cling to some traditional roles. However, roofing is physically very intensive, and may be too difficult for an average woman to endure long-term, whereas a man or woman have equal chance of success being an accountant or a computer programmer.
xdamage
10-30-2009, 10:02 PM
Do you really think we're so dumb that we don't know this? I could multi-quote your entire post and break it down, but I feel like you're talking to us like we are in kindergarten.
Emotional appeal ignoring basic facts (like not all men are loved, like starting salaries for us sucks mostly, etc.) means either people really don't know or they are intentionally forgetting. Either way does it matter? The failure begins there. Not with how people respond to it.
There are less women in top positions because less women aspire to be there.
Well if I wrote that I'd be strung up by my toenails.
But others have said the same thing, and if that is the reality then the statistical gap will never close until/if women are aspiring to be there. And some evolutionary psychologists believe the gap never will close, becausee statistically women are more likely to choose quality of family life over career life. And if that is the case, if that is evolved brain wired behavior at play, then we need to teach that. So that those who are using it as an excuse stop using it as an excuse, and take responsibility for their own careers, not worry about a statistical gap that will never be closed.
xdamage
10-30-2009, 10:15 PM
I remember the equal worth crap being used to set pay. That says a receptionist who sits in a climate controlled environment with little danger of being injured on the job should be paid as much as a roofer who works out in all weather with a much greater chance of being injured.
If that happened who would be a roofer if he could get the same pay shuffling paper in an office.
There is a very complicated discussion that one can have which basically can be summarized as this:
Assuming you believe in the idea that the patriarchy is the ruling party in society (that would be men), that our system is setup to reward men. So for example, hypothetically let's suppose we discovered men and women's interests are statistically different. And let's suppose we even proved that women were more likely to be drawn to care-provider positions, men to hunting and gathering. In a matriarchy, it might be true that someone working in a day care center would earn more then someone who say, works in a crab fishing boat. And we'd all just assume that makes sense, we'd reason maybe that caring for a human being is far more valuable to society then catching fish. That the dangers of harming the cared for is more compelling then the dangers of a few dying fishing.
Once you get your head around that you see that the value of what we do is arbitrary, in our heads. But that said...
There is another argument that the patriarchy succeeds over and over again because there is some fundamental truth at play. That the jobs men are paid more for are exceptional in some way that is not just arbitrary. Danger of significant bodily injury being an example that transcends arbitrary, and both men and women agree they would not do except for higher pay.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-30-2009, 11:36 PM
X, I believe we are basically in agreement. And what we aren't in agreement on completely, I can absolutely see your side and perspective. Cheers!
Earl_the_Pearl
10-31-2009, 12:41 AM
What is your point?
My point is men engage in strenuous dangerous work more so than women. I was explaining why men make more money in the "blue-collar industries".
The only place where the gender pay differential strongly exists is in blue-collar industries.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-31-2009, 12:46 AM
Once you get your head around that you see that the value of what we do is arbitrary, in our heads. But that said...
We pay a crab fishers more than a day care worker because crab fishers get hurt and die more than day care workers. Who in his right mind would be a crab fisher if he could make more money baby sitting?
erotictonic
10-31-2009, 01:03 AM
I will be moving in a year or so. If I never step foot in the south again I will be happy.
God Bless.
erotictonic
10-31-2009, 01:51 AM
We pay a crab fishers more than a day care worker because crab fishers get hurt and die more than day care workers. Who in his right mind would be a crab fisher if he could make more money baby sitting?
In his right mind..... not sure, but there are enough people who aren't to fulfill any job out there.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-31-2009, 02:00 AM
In his right mind..... not sure, but there are enough people who aren't to fulfill any job out there.
If so the captains of fishing boats should pay the crew less than a baby sitter.
erotictonic
10-31-2009, 02:06 AM
If so the captains of fishing boats should pay the crew less than a baby sitter.
Yea but there are a million and one examples of people who work harder for less money. So what are you saying? It happens everyday.
I know people who paint who work physically harder than a software programmer for instance..... it's not about the physical unless you choose it.
Oh, nm, i didn't see you were talking about the blue collar industry.... most women don't choose to be there.
Generally, people are paid what they are worth. If they aren't, then they are missing something, in one way or another. You can maximize your profits by gaining knowledge and adapting. People migrate to where they want to be and where they belong.
People are lazy and disinterested, and sometimes dumb, and sometimes chickenshit to change or do anything different from the norm or from what they've done. That's why they fail. Let's not forget unimaginative.....
To blame your failures on anyone but yourself is wanting to do so. It's a whole lot easier than working your ass off to do something about it. (Points at self as well.)
xdamage
10-31-2009, 05:22 AM
We pay a crab fishers more than a day care worker because crab fishers get hurt and die more than day care workers. Who in his right mind would be a crab fisher if he could make more money baby sitting?
I understand that of course, but also we grow up with a set of beliefs about what is valuable, what is not, from the day we are born and what seems 100% obvious to us doesn't necessarily mean it is.
But it is also not hard to imagine (or maybe even find now) some patriarchal societies where the poorest are given the highest risk jobs in mines, cleaning toxic waste, etc., treated as expendable, while the higher paid people work in offices. Humans are capable of such things. And for those who grow up in such societies they won't necessarily agree the crab boat fishermen should be paid more then an office worker.
What is maybe true is that if we take the inequality out of it, give people freedom to choose, that few would choose the high risk jobs unless they pay a lot. That the only reason the pay less in some societies is those people have no choice but to do it or starve (a greater risk).
The thing is in patriarchal societies women often say they feel that statistically their contributions are under valued, and very likely that is because they are. That there is a pattern to it, and that if we give them more freedoms to choose what they want to do for a living, and more freedom to shape society, that what can/should pay well could shift to be more aligned with what women feel is valuable. Nothing wrong with that. It comes with giving people freedom to choose.
xdamage
10-31-2009, 05:27 AM
To blame your failures on anyone but yourself is wanting to do so. It's a whole lot easier than working your ass off to do something about it. (Points at self as well.)
I both feel compassion for people at the same time I know, that we people are often our own worst enemies.
That we actually are often our biggest impediment and the one thing we have the power to change, ourselves, is the one thing we often most resist changing.
That letting go of victim thinking and taking responsibility often ends up empowering us to succeed even though it's difficult to swallow our own short-comings (which I have a life time of myself and have spent a life time trying to overcome... still a lifetime of more things to change ahead of me).
xdamage
10-31-2009, 05:29 AM
X, I believe we are basically in agreement. And what we aren't in agreement on completely, I can absolutely see your side and perspective. Cheers!
Likewise Kiwi ... best wishes :)
kittygirl
11-02-2009, 03:45 AM
From what I've seen in the last five years, XDamage you are sexist.
You try to hide it in that whiny kind of pussy ass man costume, but you still are.
Yes, these men from podunk ass "colleges" made 4x as much as me.
You don't believe it, not my problem, wait til your daughter tells you what's up.
Key is, I have the same education hire me to be the assistant to the men with lesser degrees, then you can pay me less.
I don't have shit to prove to you cause real men don't question this they f'in know it.
Come up with all kinds of reasons that men make more, whatever makes you feel better about yourself.
Most women know what I'm saying and I won't let your nonstop, obtuse internet arguments change my opinion.
I get secrestary, they get financial analyst. I was published and you can buy it in England. Now tell me about a mana who makes $10/hr that can say that.
Earl_the_Pearl
11-02-2009, 04:12 AM
Yes, these men from podunk ass "colleges" made 4x as much as me.Poor baby; CEOs that make millions a year only have a masters at best. A doctorate only earns a six figure at best; welcome to the real world.
kittygirl
11-02-2009, 04:19 AM
Yeah, and welcome to my real world that you have never experienced, even if you could dress in drag.
Earl_the_Pearl
11-02-2009, 04:27 AM
Yeah, and welcome to my real world that you have never experienced, even if you could dress in drag.
Did I ever mention my ex who got $200,000.00 in cash a prizes then $100,000.00 in child support and alimony. She is now married to almost a doctor (dentist).
She went with the flow.
kittygirl
11-02-2009, 05:05 AM
Figures, bitter man syndrome. You chose it, poor baby.
Earl_the_Pearl
11-02-2009, 05:50 AM
Figures, bitter man syndrome. You chose it, poor baby.
She chose it I went along. I have three children with above average looks and intelligence. They have her looks and my brains thankfully it was not the reverse. ::) Did I mention my daughter is a bioengineer and is legally blond.
I'm not bitter I still love women but will never sign the papers again. Sorry ladies I can give you her address if you want to file a complaint.
xdamage
11-02-2009, 06:49 AM
From what I've seen in the last five years, XDamage you are sexist.
Actually from what I've seen you're the sexist and that is why I reacted to your post because it is not the first time you've made broad sweeping sexist generalizations.
Even this post you start off with how low-life these guys in rehab are, but the women who are in the very same position are just poor things.
Sexist, racism, etc., starts with basic human hatred for other groups who are not like us. Those who have that hatred will surround themselves with others of like mind, and will find a reason to justify their feelings.
One doesn't have to be in the statistically most powerful group to have the core personality type that is/promotes sexism, racism, etc.
Victim think transcends race/sex. Some people are just victim thinkers and will use sex/race as an excuse, but they'd be victim thinkers no matter what. There is usually 0% chance though that they can dis-entangle the two.
So okay Ill tell you what you wanted to hear -
I'm so happy for you that you were able to go to a college that makes you a superior person, and "these men from podunk ass "colleges"" made 4x as much as" you is so sad. Yes, it must be that you're just the best smartest worker in the world, and it couldn't possibly be that your outcome in the job market has anything to do with yourself. Those guys got ahead, far ahead, just because they have a penis, you so far behind just because you are a woman.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-02-2009, 07:39 PM
Xdamage's daughter is a computer programmer. That industry is absolutely DYING to have competent women work in it. And yes, they do receive equal pay based on their skills and experience.
I did work in an IT job where I was paid less than the guy I was working with. He was about 15 years older than me, I was one year out of college. Within 3 months, they gave me a raise to equal his pay, as I showed a lot of talent. By 6 months, I was making more than him.
In IT, engineering, accounting, etc..men and women make about the same amount of money. So I think we are missing something from kittygirl's story. What type of industry were you and these guys looking to work in? They may have had lesser degrees, but did they have more relevant work experience? If they were making four times what you were offered, for the same work, why didn't you bring a discrimination suit against the company?
kittygirl
11-03-2009, 11:36 PM
It wasn't IT for sure, I went too many years to have that degree.
Like I said Econ/History UCB Honors Published.
The men went to colleges you would never recognize and would giive me away again.
Women working 9-5 do agree with me. State of this world.
My education gives me the in to be their "support" but they work a better job. My family does understand. They all taught me to seek a career not marriage. Ooops.
Excuse it all you want, it's been proven.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-03-2009, 11:50 PM
Ok, you still haven't proved anything, except that you are angry and bitter.
Who gives a shit if you went to school longer than someone who has a computer science degree. Programmers are in demand, historians are not.
Saying the same thing over and over again isn't helping. Or, do you actually think that having a history degree and no work experience is going to somehow give you a better earning job, than the guy who got an electrical engineering degree at some mid-level college? Because...an engineering degree teaches you marketeable skills, a history degree is good to use if you're going to grad school, law school, or plan to become a teacher or researcher.
Just to add: yes, there is a wage gap, across the board, between men and women. On average, women earn $.75 to the $1.00. But that's a median figure. Ya know, mean, median, mean...different measures. If you look at it by industry, it evens out a lot more when someone has education and experience with an in-demand industry.
Do women go for working in these fields less than men? They certainly do, and that's a whole other cultural can of worms to open. So, do you see what I mean, is this starting to make sense?
Maybe these guys networked and got to know people, and got the jobs that way. Or perhaps it was nepotism. OR..they negotiated a higher pay for themselves from the beginning. There can be so many reasons.
I still don't know what industry you're complaining about, but there are certainly boys club industry, where women are not treated well at all, no matter how educated they are, like certain facets of the oil business.
kittygirl
11-04-2009, 12:13 AM
Um, I didn't know an Economics degree was not in demand in the financial field?
Thanks for the input.
No, I have a better degree and get a shittier position.
My guess is you are young and not so experienced, it's usually men and inexperienced women that argue a futile point.
Hope they back you up.