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KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-04-2009, 12:22 AM
No, I am neither young nor inexperienced. An economics degree is not bad, but did you have any professional experience aside from that degree? Because a BA in economics is still liberal arts, and doesn't lend itself to a high-paying entry position. It just...doesn't work that way.

And the gap is there, I agree, but I believe there is something else to the reason why you had your predicament. Since you won't share anymore about the situation, I'm just going to conclude that you are in denial about something. And no, I don't need the name of anyone's college, or identifying information. The story just doesn't add up.

Four times salary is a huge differential if you and these men had the same amount of experience, and comparable educational backgrounds. Again, I would think about suing.

4 times salary...its as if they offered you $20,000, and then offered the men $80,000, even though you're equally qualified. That's blatant discrimination and should be brought to national attention.

taxguy
11-04-2009, 12:39 AM
Economics degrees are NOT as in demand in the financial district as you think. The major has a very distorted view on surveys and rankings because the high figures come from top colleges that do not have separate business programs. Harvard, Princeton, and Yale for example don't have undergraduate "business" degrees. Students from these colleges that want those Wall Street jobs think that economics is the closest to business, so that is the course they choose. An economics degree from a regular school is very unlikely to get the big finance jobs unless the student is exceptional and has the right network of contacts. Although, like Kiwi said, it is a great extension into grad school. Economics by itself isn't much, even at the masters level. The top analysts with econ concentrations that I've met in the financial field all had doctorates.

kittygirl
11-04-2009, 12:56 AM
This wasn't a wall street job but just a stupid financial planner job at GM.

I worked to send their faxes, e-mails, and Fedex's.

They made 4x more for gradauating at 22 with a Finance degree from a no name college, whereas I graduated in Economics with honors and publishing rights.

Yes, it does make a huge difference becuase I took the same curriculum plus more and had more professional administrative experience.

Sue, my ass.

I've been sexually harassed at every job I've ever had where my boss wasn't a woman.

Sorry, the world is not the utopia you think. I could not afford to lose my job for a shot in the dark. Proof, figure it out.

Or maybe some minds don't stretch that far.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-04-2009, 12:06 PM
Economics degrees are NOT as in demand in the financial district as you think.

This is true. I also work in the financial industry, and didn't really get anywhere until I had my MBA, and applied experience.

Honey, I am sorry about what happened to you at GM, but I think you sold yourself short. Network, negotiate, be an entrepeneuar if you must, but there are ways to break through in the industry. I did, and I was just a little stripper with a liberal arts degree as well.

erotictonic
11-04-2009, 12:26 PM
This wasn't a wall street job but just a stupid financial planner job at GM.

I worked to send their faxes, e-mails, and Fedex's.

They made 4x more for gradauating at 22 with a Finance degree from a no name college, whereas I graduated in Economics with honors and publishing rights.

Yes, it does make a huge difference becuase I took the same curriculum plus more and had more professional administrative experience.



I'm honestly confused about exactly what happened. You are saying that you applied for a job at GM, but what does that have to do with the guy you are referring to who supposedly made 4X more? What happened when you applied to GM?

taxguy
11-04-2009, 04:31 PM
Yes, it does make a huge difference becuase I took the same curriculum plus more and had more professional administrative experience.

How did you manage a full finance course load and also complete an economics degree with honors?

At my school, economics had virtually no finance classes required and had a very round education with humanities, sciences, and mathematics to supplement the econ classes. Finance major requirements were mostly complex finance and economics classes. I could see a finance major being able to also complete a economics degree but not vice versa.

kittygirl
11-04-2009, 11:16 PM
If you want check out UCB Economics requirements, you'll find it's far more comprehensive than any finance degree.

Make yourselves feel better, not my problem.

Suing is a joke.

Maybe I missed the class on being less educated and getting a better job.

kittygirl
11-05-2009, 12:30 AM
Not to mention UCB is in the top 5 of Economics degrees.

Yes, I did learn how to add which is mostly what finance degrees teach you.

For example, I worked at Home Depot before graduation. There was a class action lawsuit becuase women were earning on average 20% less for the same job.

I was one of those women and I worked my ass off.

Life happens and it happens this way, blame me make it womens' fault but it does exist.

erotictonic
11-05-2009, 01:05 AM
Not to mention UCB is in the top 5 of Economics degrees.

Yes, I did learn how to add which is mostly what finance degrees teach you.

For example, I worked at Home Depot before graduation. There was a class action lawsuit becuase women were earning on average 20% less for the same job.

I was one of those women and I worked my ass off.

Life happens and it happens this way, blame me make it womens' fault but it does exist.

I am going to be completely honest with you. You spend way too much time pointing the finger at reasons why you might have failed at your undertakings. Sure, statistics say that women make 15% less than men at the same jobs, I suppose. But that doesn't mean that has to happen to me. It's up to me to make sure it doesn't. Now I would be damn happy if I got to go to UC Berkeley (unfortunately, I never had the chance to!, I had to go to fucking "podunk" university), and I sure as shit wouldn't spend my life, after-the-fact, sitting around moaning and whining and pointing the finger at a number because I had failed a time or two. I would figure out why I personally failed, because it has nothing to do with a statistic, and how to make happen what I want to happen. Personally, I can't see you making it as a team player, doing well in the interview, etc., because your attitude is just about as foul as it gets. And you constantly recite how much you dislike most people in one way or another, and how the world sucks.... I think a person would feel that when you interviewed. It takes hundreds of resumes and hundreds of phone calls and lots of hard work other than just having a degree from a university to land a good job sometimes. It takes will power and the motivation to succeed, and problem-solving abilities. Do you have those? You seem to give up easily and then blame the whole world for not succeeding.

What I'm saying is that the reason you aren't getting jobs has to do with you. Yes, there are problems that are being brought to light, there are also websites on why women don't get paid the same as men and how to overcome the problem for yourself. For crying out loud, go read them instead of spending another day moaning and crying and blaming the outside world for your own personal failures!

You seem dead-set on researching more material so you can make more arguments on why you can't get a job. Why not put that energy into researching how to get one and networking with successful people? I doubt living with crack dealers will get you very far.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-05-2009, 02:38 PM
Thank you ET. Although I don't see eye to eye with you on many issues, your advice was very inspirational.

princessjas
11-05-2009, 05:11 PM
I see ET and KSS's points...and see it somewhat similarly. I can be pissed and believe that sexism exists, yet not use this as an excuse for not succeeding, but as an incentive to outperform every single other person in the workplace.

I was taught as a child, by my father, that I would have to work twice as hard as a man professionally (an exageration, but you get the point), do 99% of the housework (if I married) and would still get less appreciation and acknowledgement for my accomplishments while making less money. Oh, and it was drilled into me that I would need straight A's to even have a shot at a decent career (Oh, how glad I am that wasn't true, but I still came damn close with the exception of my very last semester).

I don't use sexism as an excuse to fail, I use my anger at the injustice I have seen and experienced to fuel my drive to work harder and put every man in the workplace who has ever called me "little lady" or "darlin" to shame. At some point if all women put out more than twice the effort, are better educated and more productive, easier to get along with...well, we WILL be treated as equals and the men with the giant egos and sexist views who are terrified of sucessful women will be out the door... in other words a level playing field without sexism in the workplace (in all areas of the country, not just little isolated pockets). I don't expect it to be in my generation, but it is possible and I truly think it will be soon!

*Please don't take offense to this if you are a normal, nice guy. Just because I'm saying there IS sexism out there, doesn't mean I'm saying all or even most men are sexist. It just seems like a fair percentage of the older men who run companies perpetuate these views. Also, I'm not blaming any of you guys for the actions of a few, and hold no malice toward men who are respectful and such.

princessjas
11-05-2009, 06:44 PM
2.) They are going to have to stop doing things like bringing in cookies, or flirting or anything which makes people like them, that a guy would not do. It is business, and the like-ability contests contribute to a general ongoing problem.


I've waited weeks to see if someone would call this statement out, but nope. The fact that no one seemed to see a problem with it just points out exactly how prevalent and accepted sexism is in our society. It's fine for a man to say that women shouldn't do things "a guy would not do."

Yes, we are more likable in many instances, kinder as well, but that is not indicative of participating in likability contests, it's a basic difference between men and women. Saying we must act like men and alter our personalities in order to compete is so insanely sexist that I can't even fathom that it is considered acceptable to anyone.

Should we renounce our vaginas in order to enter the corporate world? Guys certainly don't have to act less like men. They are able to talk golf/sports/having a beer with the boys/cigars/cars/strip clubs/techie electronic toys at work (I've seen it over and over again, so please don't deny it), so why should we have to act like men? Not saying we should flirt, be over emotional or such, but basic female personality traits such as being kind to others should definitely not put us at a disadvantage (as long as we are also competitive)...hell we should be able to discuss hair and makeup at work all day if you technically wanna be fair, men discuss there vices and are rewarded for it by bonding with superiors, impressing them with their "maleness," etc.

erotictonic
11-05-2009, 08:36 PM
I've waited weeks to see if someone would call this statement out, but nope. The fact that no one seemed to see a problem with it just points out exactly how prevalent and accepted sexism is in our society. It's fine for a man to say that women shouldn't do things "a guy would not do."

Yes, we are more likable in many instances, kinder as well, but that is not indicative of participating in likability contests, it's a basic difference between men and women. Saying we must act like men and alter our personalities in order to compete is so insanely sexist that I can't even fathom that it is considered acceptable to anyone.

Should we renounce our vaginas in order to enter the corporate world? Guys certainly don't have to act less like men. They are able to talk golf/sports/having a beer with the boys/cigars/cars/strip clubs/techie electronic toys at work (I've seen it over and over again, so please don't deny it), so why should we have to act like men? Not saying we should flirt, be over emotional or such, but basic female personality traits such as being kind to others should definitely not put us at a disadvantage (as long as we are also competitive)...hell we should be able to discuss hair and makeup at work all day if you technically wanna be fair, men discuss there vices and are rewarded for it by bonding with superiors, impressing them with their "maleness," etc.

I was going to agree with you totally. But I know one-too-many guys who don't make shit either, because of their personalities. The guys who are making the bucks are the hard-ass negotiators and the ones who take charge. The ones like my bf, where you have to learn to speak up and you better have your arguments down, because when he or someone else lights into you, you gotta be able to carry your own. Yes, my bf knows how to get raises. He's a VERY giving person and a great teacher, but he doesn't back down. He pushes back against corporate when he needs to, he has many skills, and he has put himself into a position where he can't be done without. He's always but always pushing himself and his needs, and his team to corporate, making threats, etc. to get what he wants, because if you don't, you will continually get screwed every which way but loose. He's the caretaker for those who aren't as aggressive and knowledgeable; he's the one people turn to in times of distress and for answers. It's a system, one I don't know too well, but he is working at home right now so I can sit here and listen to him in conferences and on the phone all day. ;D

I think what xdamage might've been saying is that alot of women just don't have the negotiation skills needed to get what they want, nor the personalities to (although the way he said it was confusing, imo). I don't think it has to do with women not doing anything a guy wouldn't do. There are men in the same boat. I know a guy, completely masculine, too nice, and not very smart, who brings in cheesecakes all the time, and he doesn't make shit. It just has to do with being a hard-ass mother fucker when it comes to asking for raises. It comes down to having reasons for getting them, and pushing for them.

At the same time, I think that the people who bring in cookies (including the guys, and I know several with this personality) and the people who have feminine traits (gays included) are needed as well. A good company celebrates diversities, because the different personalities are what come together to make a company successful. There are jobs women excel at BECAUSE they are feminine; there are things that more masculine personalities won't notice or can't do. These personalities are not aggressive enough to push continually for raises!

No, I don't think it's fair. It does leave women, once again, in a worse position overall. Luckily, I have found something I can do to get around it: run my own small business. :)

princessjas
11-05-2009, 09:06 PM
^^ You would have a point if we could behave this way without being fired and/or reprimanded...but in reality we can't. We are called bitches if we are that agressive. Been there done that, got told I wasn't a guy and therefore couldn't behave as such. I also don't think we should have to scream bloody murder to get what is right and just when at least in my experience most men (that aren't fem) don't have to. Feminine personalities/actions should not equal lesser pay, if you are competent.

To further my point that it isn't just salary where this is rampant...just before I left my last position, I was waiting to speak with Pam (CEO's secretary/assitant), the CEO came out to tell her not to hire anymore women under about 40ish.

Yep, not to avoid hiring anymore young, flighty, emotional people, etc....but to avoid hiring anymore young women. This was because of an issue they had with one young female secretary that worked in the other half of the company...but still...They had continual issues with severaql young men, and no such ultimatum was made.

I get where you are coming from, but even the fact that you altered your post to be more moderate/male friendy + the fact that your original post did agree, but wasn't posted after my first post makes me wonder how much societal influences played in...Please don't take that as an insult, hell, I didn't even catch how insulting the idea "we should just act like guys if we wanna get ahead" was...it just seemed normal for a sec, till I thought...WTF??

Anyway, I'm on way too much vicoden and will make more sense tomorrow I figure. lol

erotictonic
11-05-2009, 09:52 PM
^^ You would have a point if we could behave this way without being fired and/or reprimanded...but in reality we can't. We are called bitches if we are that agressive. Been there done that, got told I wasn't a guy and therefore couldn't behave as such. I also don't think we should have to scream bloody murder to get what is right and just when at least in my experience most men (that aren't fem) don't have to. Feminine personalities/actions should not equal lesser pay, if you are competent.

To further my point that it isn't just salary where this is rampant...just before I left my last position, I was waiting to speak with Pam (CEO's secretary/assitant), the CEO came out to tell her not to hire anymore women under about 40ish.

Yep, not to avoid hiring anymore young, flighty, emotional people, etc....but to avoid hiring anymore young women. This was because of an issue they had with one young female secretary that worked in the other half of the company...but still...They had continual issues with severaql young men, and no such ultimatum was made.

I get where you are coming from, but even the fact that you altered your post to be more moderate/male friendy + the fact that your original post did agree, but wasn't posted after my first post makes me wonder how much societal influences played in...Please don't take that as an insult, hell, I didn't even catch how insulting the idea "we should just act like guys if we wanna get ahead" was...it just seemed normal for a sec, till I thought...WTF??

Anyway, I'm on way too much vicoden and will make more sense tomorrow I figure. lol

You are fine lol. Well, I altered my post, as I usually do, because my first impression is not always the one I think is the most right for me. I might alter a post for several hours before I finish editing it. And it usually includes elements from the first post, plus more that I've thought of over the course of time. Yes, I do try to keep a moderate approach. I think all is right in one way or another. It's just about figuring out how it fits to make the most use of it...

No, I do agree. I think it's unfair that I have to play hardass mother fucker in order to get a raise, but I also am the kind of person that just accepts it for what it is, and if I want a raise, I just go by the system to get it. I'm not much of a "fight against the system to change it for the better" kind of person, especially if the system is easy for me. The system usually works for me, if I try hard enough. I suppose equal rights has never been my forte is all; people stuff has never been one of my strong points, even as a stripper.

I've never had any of the things happen to me that you have. I've never experienced any of them. I've never come in contact with anyone who I would perceive as being sexist in the workplace, except for when I was selling timeshares in the south (flirting, but it was pretty much mutual) or in an sc (to be expected for both). And I didn't make less money then. All the salespeople made the same amount of money. And in admin positions, I made more money than most in the position I was hired for. Do I think there are some areas where it's true that women get paid less than men for the same jobs, for example, where "good ole boy" networks prevail? Yes. I think there are areas in the US where I'm sure it happens, on purpose, but I don't think it happens much here.

I've seen what happens around here, and in all the stories I'm told by women and men, it's pretty fair. People get paid for what they are worth. It's also about common sense. If you want or need a raise, but don't deserve one or have hit a salary cap, you won't get one. You have to work hard to get raises, and then you have to make sure your boss knows you want one and that you have worked for it. Yes, men do have to fight for raises here. I've watched it happen. I've watched the less aggressive be passed up while the ones who fight get them, but I've also seen that the ones who aren't getting them really don't deserve them either. Then I've seen the aggressive be turned down for them as well, because they really didn't deserve them. "You're surfing tits all day. I can't give you a raise." LMAO. It just depends on the situation.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-06-2009, 02:32 PM
I've worked in several jobs where guys would bring in food. At a sales position, us sales reps would often hold lunch meetings, seminars, client appreciation events, etc....these cost us all a lot of money, so why waste good food?

Nothing wrong with bringing in cookies, etc. My boss used to bring us donuts every Friday....

Anyway, I must have overlooked X's comments, I just don't think that bringing food for the office to share is particularly feminine. Its often used as a reward for a team, or to just not be wasteful. I've never once judged a colleague on something like that.

kittygirl
11-10-2009, 02:37 AM
Even my male counterparts knew.

If it's too hard believe, sorry.

I'm glad you have better luck, Do you doubt I worked my ass off?

Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

Old ass menopausal women guaranteed my fate with bosses they fucked. Please step in and tell me what I could have done?

Idealism dies with the young or inexperienced.

For those who doubt, please tell me how successful you are.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-10-2009, 03:02 PM
Was this at this one GM job, or every job you have had? I am not young, neither is Xdamage or erotictonic.