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eagle2
10-26-2009, 11:31 PM
No offense intended, but you are both dreaming. If ONE natural gas or oil fired generator must come online to meet system load, even if it only represents 1% of the total power being generated during that hour, then EVERY ISO electricity customer is charged the price bid by that oil or gas fired generator ... and every hydro / nuclear / coal fired generator that is supplying an aggregate 99% of the total power during that same hour is paid the same price bid by the gas / oil fired power plant supplying the last 1% !!!



About the only states that use oil for electricity are Hawaii and Alaska. I doubt that the cost of generating electricity in Hawaii and Alaska has much of an effect on the rest of the country.

Melonie
10-27-2009, 03:13 AM
I will reserch this issue myself. I should be up on it soon if my direct contacts are still available. It is definitely NOT they way the NPCC (Northeast Power Coordinating Council) used to run things.

Please do ... and please share what you find !



About the only states that use oil for electricity are Hawaii and Alaska

Actually, there is a movement underway to convert natural gas fired 'peaking plants' to dual-fuel capability, with the other fuel being oil. The reasons for this are twofold. First, America's natural gas supply system has little diversity or excess pipeline capacity, making both supply and pricing potentially subject to 'disruptions' ( i.e. hurricane katrina aftermath shutting down natgas pipeline pump stations). DHS, FERC and state regulatory agencies are encouraging this in order to reduce future risk factors potentially affecting the reliability of the electric grid as natural gas fired generators supplant coal fired generators as the last unit needed to meet total ISO region electrical demand. In other words, they have figured out that an attack on a major gas pipeline could now leave tens of millions of Americans in the dark because, with natural gas fuel to generators cut off, there isn't enough nuclear + hydro + alternate + remaining coal power generating capacity left to keep the grid from collapsing.

Second, the 'captive market' for American natural gas ( i.e. the very limited ability to import foreign LNG in volume) creates occasional opportunities for arbitrage of BTU oil prices versus BTU gas prices.

And as relayer will quickly discover for himself, all it takes is one oil fired generator as the final bid to set the entire ISO region's wholesale electricity price at a level based on oil fired generation costs.

~

Eric Stoner
10-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Not going along with Eric's crazy right-wing ideology is having an alternative universe? LOLOLOL!!!!!!!

You try to wave off what I and Melonie post as nothing more than products of our "ideology". The numbers are what they are. I wish you'd stop peddling this garbage that Melonie makes things up . She documents her stuff AND actually READS it BEFORE she posts it. Something you might want to try. How many times have I pointed to a link that you posted that does NOT say what you claim it does ? Quite often. Every time I point to your shortcomings in reading comprehension or question the veracity of a government controlled Zimbabwean web-site, you just try to walk away from it. ^^^ Two perfect examples are right here in this very thread.

Sooner or later, you're going to have to get used to the notion that there is one set of facts for everybody. What opinions you choose to derive therefrom, and even what spin to give them, is of course up to you. It's still a mostly free country. For now.

You may not believe this but I actually respect you and Threlayer. Not your ideas per se; but I do respect the intellect that produces them.
I'd appreciate it if you'd knock off the personal stuff and just attack those ideas of mine that you don't like or agree with. There are so many of them that there ought to be more than enough to keep you occupied.

Eric Stoner
10-27-2009, 11:57 AM
Another cause for concern. Fox Business and CNBC both reported a proposed Asian Free
Trade Zone with a proposed Asian currency used instead of dollars. If that happens, demand for dollars will free fall.

threlayer
10-30-2009, 05:59 PM
If a Sound Currency matters at all, it makes complete nonsense to have an Asian currency as the standard.

China had its heyday in innovation a millenium or two ago. Best it can do now is to copy other countries' ideas and produce them with near-slave labor. And that is not efficiency so much as it is exploitation.

Melonie
11-01-2009, 04:04 AM
If a Sound Currency matters at all, it makes complete nonsense to have an Asian currency as the standard.

First there is the matter of 'seignorage' for the country whose currency is being used as the standard. In essence, that gov't can book income from the printing of new money which other gov'ts and their other currencies cannot. This is potentially worth hundreds of billions per year ... which the Chinese / Japanese / Korean gov'ts would love to share at the expense of the US gov't !

Next there is the matter of foreign exchange profits for those banks who are clearing the international settlements ... which for a US dollar standard means Wall St. If the Yuan became the international standard, these profits would directly transfer to Chinese international banks and thus the Chinese gov't. Again we're talking about hundreds of billions ! The Chinese gov't is already trying to 'horn in' on the Wall St. profits via the setting up of Yuan swap agreements with the central banks of a few countries that trade heavily with China ... thus bypassing the necessity of a US dollar intermediate currency exchange thus Wall St. profits on that exchange.



Another cause for concern. Fox Business and CNBC both reported a proposed Asian Free
Trade Zone with a proposed Asian currency used instead of dollars. If that happens, demand for dollars will free fall

This would absolutely be the case. As it is now, because the US dollar is required to clear international trade transactions, even if the US economy sucks, an increase in direct trade between other countries also requires an increase in US dollars. This has arguably been the reason for a minor bounce in the US dollar's exchange rate, as well as stronger than expected bidding at recent US Treasury auctions. If the US dollar standard is supplanted, this will directly translate into a vastly reduced foreign demand for US dollars ( and US dollar denominated assets like Treasuries) ... causing the US dollar exchange rate / 'purchasing power' to fall precipitously, and causing US interest rates to skyrocket. This is 'crash helmet' serious business !!!

threlayer
11-01-2009, 01:33 PM
...that gov't can book income from the printing of new money which other gov'ts and their other currencies cannot....

...foreign exchange profits for those banks who are clearing the international settlements....
That is what they would like; so it makes some sens from their point of view.


The Chinese gov't is already trying to 'horn in' on the Wall St. profits via the setting up of Yuan swap agreements with the central banks of a few countries that trade heavily with China ... thus bypassing the necessity of a US dollar intermediate currency exchange thus Wall St. profits on that exchange.
I almost cannot imagine the underhanded tricks those governments would play, considering what subtrefuge they have been playing with their exported goods and long history of, well, criminality and lack of ethics. If we think of the recent idiocy of the US financial sector, the thought of having any of the Asian countries in control of world financial system just leaves me astounded of the additional disastrous policies that surely would result. Financial apocalypse at least.