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Golden_Rule
10-17-2009, 08:39 PM
I didn't get good and pissed till you said we had "borderline personality issues" and a "Ted Bundy like vibe."

Than may I point out you got pissed for nothing because I didn't say dancers had borderline personality issues. I said the lurking readers don't have borderline personality issues.

I did make the Ted Bundy vibe crack but clearly labeled it as an attempt at sarcastic humor as a response to being called a douche bag FIRST!.

The point is when I said "Ted Bundy vibe" I was TRYING to be funny and pointed out, when I said it, that was the intent and that I didn't actually mean there was a Ted Bundy vibe.

No one was kidding around when they called me a douche bag.

You guys almost always start the mean spirited shit and then get upset and even nastier when someone either points out to you that you are being rude or gives a little of it back to you.

You're throwing rocks from houses with an awful lot of glass in them.



If you do not think we are doing something wrong simply by taking money then WHY have you continued your preaching for 17 damn pages

Again wrong. I have stated several times there is nothing left to say on this topic that hasn't been said and unless someone gives me reason to comment, like responding to a personal attack [why I am responding now], or something new like Elvia's question above, why not simply agree to disagree as we are never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-17-2009, 09:23 PM
I can live with tolerable. I am pretty sure the girls with whom I have very little or no interaction feel that way.

No, they are just doing everything in their power to restrain themselves from telling you off for being a waste of space. However, what good would that do, its not like it would stop you from coming around.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-17-2009, 09:25 PM
Actually I'd say that alcohol is the cause of 95%+ of the problems that occur in the clubs.

Agreed.

laurcon
10-17-2009, 10:08 PM
Where did that come from? You'd think reading 17 pages of your ridiculous drivel would do it, but NO. I didn't get good and pissed till you said we had "borderline personality issues" and a "Ted Bundy like vibe." Yes, I realize you didn't directly say the first, because if you did, you'd have to be a man and own it. You actually said you assumed anyone reading this thread would agree with you and not us beause they didn't have borderline personality issues, thereby expressing your opinion that we DO. (BTW - It's fucking stupid that I had to write out that logic, but I knew damn well if I didn't you'd deny the obvious meaning.)

If you do not think we are doing something wrong simply by taking money then WHY have you continued your preaching for 17 damn pages when we have told you over and over that we DO treat customers the way we would wish to be treated? It doesn't take a genuis to see that you obviously think we are doing something wrong by simply dancing and treating others fairly (like we would want to be treated, before you question the meaning of fair treatment).

The comment about your personality, was made from the way you have presented yourself over several years on this board. If you presented a more pleasant demeanor in most threads and this one was an anomaly, then I would not have commented.


Than may I point out you got pissed for nothing because I didn't say dancers had borderline personality issues. I said the lurking readers don't have borderline personality issues.

I did make the Ted Bundy vibe crack but clearly labeled it as an attempt at sarcastic humor as a response to being called a douche bag FIRST!.

The point is when I said "Ted Bundy vibe" I was TRYING to be funny and pointed out, when I said it, that was the intent and that I didn't actually mean there was a Ted Bundy vibe.

No one was kidding around when they called me a douche bag.

You guys almost always start the mean spirited shit and then get upset and even nastier when someone either points out to you that you are being rude or gives a little of it back to you.

You're throwing rocks from houses with an awful lot of glass in them.


lmao, princessjas totally called it. how do you know that lurking reading don't have borderline personality disorder? i don't think we know anything about them since they don't post. and if you need to point out that you're TRYING to be funny, perhaps you should realize that its not funny at all. jokes shouldn't be that hard to get.

GR, why do you insist on ignoring the part where we say we ARE following the golden rule and treating customers as we would like to be treated? :-\

Earl_the_Pearl
10-17-2009, 10:29 PM
So the problem isn't the drunk guys, its that there aren't enough girls giving them head?

Good luck justifying that one.
No it is leading drunk guys into believing they will get more than an air dance for $800

Golden_Rule
10-18-2009, 12:02 AM
lmao, princessjas totally called it. how do you know that lurking reading don't have borderline personality disorder?

OMG. Could it be because I presume they are average souls, like most of us, or do you think the majority of people have borderline personality disorders?


GR, why do you insist on ignoring the part where we say we ARE following the golden rule and treating customers as we would like to be treated? :-\

I'm not ignoring it. I've responded to those saying they do so with a "good for you", and that "I am only talking about the MINORITY that don't."

Why do some keep taking something I am assigning to a minority position and taking it personally. It is almost taking on the old, "A guilty mind needs no accuser" aspect.

[its like crime. The vast majority of people are law abiding but it only takes the few who aren't to make crime an issue]

chris91
10-18-2009, 01:25 AM
Why, because you said so?

When did God die and leave you the keys to heaven? :)

I didn't decide that you said it. You said it. It's printed right on the damn page.




I've been reading these pages for years. If you've been reading them too you've seen them. Start in Hustle Hut. Then look for others where dancers have spoken of how they have hit guys with shoes, spilled drinks, etc. You'll see some of the same names as the posts complaining about the clubs, the customers, etc.

Being the accuser, I think that you have the burden of proof. I'm not going to sort through a crapton of posts to find examples that prove your point.

Also, I think that if a girl hits a guy with a shoe or spills a drink on him, then he's probably done something to deserve it. I don't think the golden rule applies when someone has just tried to force feed you his cock. Of course, you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Has anyone ever tried tried to rape your male middle aged ex-cop ass?




You have a point to make fine. I could write some lovely posts picking your onboard personality apart. Do I do it, or do I just stick the ideas you present?

Really... {sheesh}

We've circled around this long enough. If you have nothing constructive to add why not just agree that we don't agree and leave it at that.

:shrug:You finally answered my questions, so it seems that calling you a douche is effective. Go figure.

chris91
10-18-2009, 01:33 AM
Again wrong. I have stated several times there is nothing left to say on this topic that hasn't been said and unless someone gives me reason to comment, like responding to a personal attack [why I am responding now], or something new like Elvia's question above, why not simply agree to disagree as we are never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

Because, you'll just be back in the next thread to aggravate us more with the same shit. Every damn thread you're in to tell us about how strip clubs would be so much nicer if we weren't all trying to "get over on" each other, and it's wrong to punch a guy just because he sexually assaults you, blah blah blah.

You just want us to drop it so that you can have time to prepare your next speech.

Hopper
10-18-2009, 04:55 AM
I tip dancers for stage shows if I like them and I would be frustrated not having an LD with dancers I like. That's like going to a restaurant and not eating, though the stage shows are enjoyable too.

I don't have long LDs - nothing I can't do in fifteen or twenty minutes that I would do in 30 or 60 minutes that I can't do in 15 or 20. And I don't HAVE to go longer - it's a thrill, not a dependancy or a substitute. So I'm not in danger of being fleeced.

If dancers think that's not spending enough, (1) I spend as much as I want to, not how much they want and (2) if all other patrons did just that much, dancers wouldn't need me to spend more.

Hopper
10-18-2009, 05:07 AM
I've never been led on by false (spoken or unspoken) promises of "extra's" or a phone number. Not why I go either.

I think any guy compulsive enough to spend his rent money on LDs can't be helped. If he didn't spend it there he would probably spend it on something else. I know guys who regularly borrow money because they piss it away every weekend, and then piss away the money they borrowed. I also knew a guy who had a dependancy on LDs because he couldn't pick up girls. He didn't tell the strippers when he couldn't afford it.

Guys new to SCs might think strippers are loose and that they can score with them if they spend money on them. It's hard for me to feel sorry for those guys - that's the gamble they are making. It's little different to thinking you can win at the tables. There are other places to pick up girls, even loose ones.

xdamage
10-18-2009, 05:23 AM
He got what he deserved if he stayed there once he knew what was what. What newbie goes to a CR with two girls for a G on Day One? Especially if he's not loaded.

If he was allowed to believe something more was going to happen, he should have politely excused himself as soon as he knew the situation, paid the girls for the time they were there, and promptly left the club.

I already said, a young marine.

And I guess people forget, Crazy Horse IIs was closed after what the bouncers did to a man who did not pay an $80 bill. Your being naive if you think they would have let him walk after 15 minutes in.

xdamage
10-18-2009, 05:37 AM
you make many valid points xdamage, thanks for taking the time to write all that. just to respond to this part though, i really wasn't joking. i haven't done any working-traveling so i don't really know how most places in the country operate. i'm kind of in a bubble here in manhattan. room fees are around $400 for the hour, and then $5-600 per entertainer. i thought this was common in vegas too. i can see how that would really only work in major cities. sorry, sometimes i don't think and can come across snotty. i'm not suggesting everywhere should charge anything like that.

Sorry as well.

And besides I really don't blame the dancer for over charging. For all I know the club owners encouraged tacking on the extra fees because they know most people won't complain because who would they complain too? Most of us wouldn't want to raise a public issue about what we did in a SC. And if they do complain, the club just refunds and breaks even.

Dancing is an unusual business and so the rules are unusual. As a dancer you should make every last penny you legally can. That is great. Most of us can handle it and appreciate it. But the remainder of society, even if they disapprove, it is okay that they do.

Checks and balances keep us all honest, and I also acknowledge that that there are people who can't handle the SCs. At the moment we can't write laws to protect them, because it is all a fuzzy mess as to where the lines of fantasy/disclosure should be, what is legal/not, who is deluded/not. But if you read through the reams of reports here of bad customer behavior, does she really love me threads, etc., it is apparent that some people cannot handle this form of entertainment, at least not the degrees of contact or GFE or fantasy, alcohol, or whatever that is profitable, but results in these customers acting badly. I'm fine with laws that try to protect them too since I'm not in their shoes in life.

p.s. That was my first experience with a VIP room; it definitely colored my thinking to a degree, long term made me less likely to spend on VIP rooms, and just generally reminded me that we customers need to be careful in SCs like every other dealing we have with business. See in a way GR is right.. that $50 extra bucks has caused me to spend far more carefully in the future; short term gain sometime leads to long term loss. But that is business and people. It is normal tendency to choose what we can earn now, even if it's often a long term poor strategy.

yoda57us
10-18-2009, 06:53 AM
So the problem isn't the drunk guys, its that there aren't enough girls giving them head?



No it is leading drunk guys into believing they will get more than an air dance for $800

LOL, in Providence $800 would be enough to get you head all day and night in several clubs...

BEM is right, alcohol causes most of the problems in strip clubs but I would ad that drunken dancers cause just as much, if not more, trouble than drunken customers. When I was a Saturday night regular years ago there was nothing more entertaining than watching a drunken customer and a drunken stripper standing at the club's ATM machine trying to figure out how to get money out of it.....Ah, good times!

princessjas
10-18-2009, 09:05 AM
Than may I point out you got pissed for nothing because I didn't say dancers had borderline personality issues. I said the lurking readers don't have borderline personality issues.

I did make the Ted Bundy vibe crack but clearly labeled it as an attempt at sarcastic humor as a response to being called a douche bag FIRST!.

The point is when I said "Ted Bundy vibe" I was TRYING to be funny and pointed out, when I said it, that was the intent and that I didn't actually mean there was a Ted Bundy vibe.

No one was kidding around when they called me a douche bag.

You guys almost always start the mean spirited shit and then get upset and even nastier when someone either points out to you that you are being rude or gives a little of it back to you.

You're throwing rocks from houses with an awful lot of glass in them.




Again wrong. I have stated several times there is nothing left to say on this topic that hasn't been said and unless someone gives me reason to comment, like responding to a personal attack [why I am responding now], or something new like Elvia's question above, why not simply agree to disagree as we are never going to see eye-to-eye on this.

I already pointed out that you DID say it, just with the "sneaky language" that you say you don't like, so you could be a pussy and not own it. At least have enough spine to back up your insults. I'm a tiny little girl and I manage that.

How did I start anything? I answered your and Bem's question, Bem acknowledged my answer, you continued to preach and be insulting. Throwing rocks in glass houses huh? Yawn. Another insult from GR. ::) Whatever will I do.

Oh, and yeah, I guess you'd like it if we all just shut up and let you go on with your condescending preaching. Let you go on implying to anyone with half a brain reading that we treat others unfairly, without defending ourselves at all. No thank you! When someone insults me, even if they are vague about it, I'm going to defend myself. :P

ETA - I decided to be Captain Obvious here. GR, would you say I was calling you an asshole if I said something like...."Well, GR, I would preach to everyone constantly too, but yanno, I'm not an asshole."

It's pretty obvious that while I'm actually saying I'm not an asshole, I'm calling you one right? Same thing. Oh, and if I DID say something like that, I wouldn't then deny my intent. It's just retarded.

laurcon
10-18-2009, 10:30 AM
OMG. Could it be because I presume they are average souls, like most of us, or do you think the majority of people have borderline personality disorders?



I'm not ignoring it. I've responded to those saying they do so with a "good for you", and that "I am only talking about the MINORITY that don't."

Why do some keep taking something I am assigning to a minority position and taking it personally. It is almost taking on the old, "A guilty mind needs no accuser" aspect.

[its like crime. The vast majority of people are law abiding but it only takes the few who aren't to make crime an issue]

so if we're all acting right here, and there is only a minority that doesn't follow the golden rule, as in all businesses... what's the issue?? what are you agreeing to disagree about? what are we not seeing eye-to-eye about?? we keep taking it personally because you're talking to us about it. if its some silent minority, why are you even bothering? what good is us discussing what girls on drugs that aren't on this site do? why preach to us when we already follow your favorite rule? and then why the need to accuse us of being guilty?
would you want someone to treat you like this GR? :(

princessjas
10-18-2009, 11:07 AM
so if we're all acting right here, and there is only a minority that doesn't follow the golden rule, as in all businesses... what's the issue?? what are you agreeing to disagree about? what are we not seeing eye-to-eye about?? we keep taking it personally because you're talking to us about it. if its some silent minority, why are you even bothering? what good is us discussing what girls on drugs that aren't on this site do? why preach to us when we already follow your favorite rule? and then why the need to accuse us of being guilty?
would you want someone to treat you like this GR? :(

:rotfl: I know! I don't think someone is following their own philosophy very well.

bem401
10-18-2009, 11:17 AM
No, they are just doing everything in their power to restrain themselves from telling you off for being a waste of space. However, what good would that do, its not like it would stop you from coming around.

Even if that is the case, they are still tolerating me, but fair enough, perhaps I should tell them the same, because I have as little use for the girls I'm not there to see as they have for me.

In actuality, they know why I'm there and who I'm there to see and I know why they're there and what they're there to do. I don't attempt to get free looks or feels and they don't try to turn me into their customer, so we behave like adults and not selfish children who think they are entitled to something they're not and make the best of things since neither of us impedes the other's ability to do what we came to do. Occasionally, if circumstances permit, we might even chat for awhile and become acquainted with each other.

bem401
10-18-2009, 11:27 AM
And I guess people forget, Crazy Horse IIs was closed after what the bouncers did to a man who did not pay an $80 bill. Your being naive if you think they would have let him walk after 15 minutes in.

There are ways to handle situations and ways not to handle situations. I never said he should be able to walk. If he asked for a host, said he was sold a false bill of goods, wished to pay for the elapsed time and leave, I wouldn't expect there to be a problem. Making a scene, refusing to pay, and running for the door wouldn't be a good plan.

yoda57us
10-18-2009, 01:43 PM
There are ways to handle situations and ways not to handle situations. I never said he should be able to walk. If he asked for a host, said he was sold a false bill of goods, wished to pay for the elapsed time and leave, I wouldn't expect there to be a problem. Making a scene, refusing to pay, and running for the door wouldn't be a good plan.

You wouldn't expect there to be a problem? I dunno BEM I've seen lot's of guys told to leave and even physically ejected over the years for arguing with dancers about money. I've seen very little rational mediation...in fact, I haven't seen any! I don't know if you have discovered a new club in RI that I haven't been to yet but it's generally pretty much frontier justice and the club/dancer is always right. You pay and you learn your lesson. Or you refuse to pay and get asked to leave. It's usually one or the other.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-18-2009, 02:08 PM
See in a way GR is right.. that $50 extra bucks has caused me to spend far more carefully in the future; short term gain sometime leads to long term loss.
That $50 was hustled by a person that doesn't care about long term loss; they don't really care much about anything except getting theirs that night.
If SCs become a way of life for workers or PLs it WILL slant their thinking; of course many work in SC because that is the way they think to begin with.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-18-2009, 02:10 PM
LOL, in Providence $800 would be enough to get you head all day and night in several clubs...
Not if they can get away with the $800 and not deliver.

yoda57us
10-18-2009, 03:11 PM
Not if they can get away with the $800 and not deliver.

I know you club in an alternate universe known as New Jersey Earl but in a town where extras are rampant you don't make a living as a dancer by not delivering the goods. Sure there are a few girls who make promises they have no intention of keeping just like everywhere but it's a lot harder to get away with that in a club where extras are the norm.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-18-2009, 03:33 PM
I know you club in an alternate universe known as New Jersey Earl but in a town where extras are rampant you don't make a living as a dancer by not delivering the goods. Sure there are a few girls who make promises they have no intention of keeping just like everywhere but it's a lot harder to get away with that in a club where extras are the norm.

Road trip.

hockeybobby
10-18-2009, 03:42 PM
Road trip.




http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bHSVCs9rX0A/SI3kEkZ2S3I/AAAAAAAADc4/qbJcUyl1Jho/s400/animal+househouse.jpg

yoda57us
10-18-2009, 04:49 PM
Road trip.


Let me make a slight addendum to my post before you load up the station wagon and head for Providence. Providence clubs are universally no holds barred as far as contact levels go but there are dancers who work clean and do very well. What does not work however is lying about what you will do because it's just too easy for a guy to find a dancer who will do deliver extras at regular dance prices...

Since my favs in RI are all sexy but clean I feel compelled to add this caveat to my original post.

Carry on....

Earl_the_Pearl
10-18-2009, 05:01 PM
Carry on....


http://www.frankmadill.com/images/car-dust.jpg

Golden_Rule
10-18-2009, 05:02 PM
I didn't decide that you said it. You said it. It's printed right on the damn page.

The quote is correct but your interpretation of it is wrong. I guess it like using real words but applying any meaning to it you decide rather than what's in the dictionary [as I've pointed out several times on these pages].


Being the accuser, I think that you have the burden of proof.

That is another mistake, and an important one. I'm not accusing anyone. I am stating some opinions and making the observation that strip-clubs might be better for everyone if customers and dancers treated each other better.

The question getting louder and louder with each of the posts some of you are making is, "Why do you feel accused?"


I'm not going to sort through a crapton of posts to find examples that prove your point.


Of course, you wouldn't know anything about that would you? Has anyone ever tried tried to rape your male middle aged ex-cop ass?

No, Just all the associated weirdness that goes with being an urban cop assigned to the kind of units I worked with.


:shrug:You finally answered my questions, so it seems that calling you a douche is effective. Go figure.

Manged to slip in calling me a douche yet again. Ava maria provisima, your S.O. must be a saint. {LOL} :D



You just want us to drop it so that you can have time to prepare your next speech.

:P

That is truly all that deserves.

Elvia
10-18-2009, 05:11 PM
The quote is correct but your interpretation of it is wrong.

Clearly, No one's buying it. Give it up.

Golden_Rule
10-18-2009, 05:38 PM
I already pointed out that you DID say it, just with the "sneaky language" that you say you don't like, so you could be a pussy and not own it. At least have enough spine to back up your insults. I'm a tiny little girl and I manage that.


Don't you find it just a bit odd that you should know better what I mean than I did when I wrote the statement being commented on?

Seems that if I say I was being humorous in a sarcastic mode it ought to be the final word on that. Especially when I said it when I wrote it, in the same post no less.


How did I start anything? I answered your and Bem's question, Bem acknowledged my answer, you continued to preach and be insulting. Throwing rocks in glass houses huh? Yawn. Another insult from GR. ::) Whatever will I do.

That is part of the problem. Stating someone is throwing rocks from a glass house isn't an insult. It is an observation. You guys are incredibly thin skinned. You take insult where none is being given.


Oh, and yeah, I guess you'd like it if we all just shut up and let you go on with your condescending preaching.

I'm not suggesting anyone shut up. I am suggesting the cordial behavior of accepting we aren't going to change each others minds so we all walk off the field of battle, each leaving the other with some dignity left. That is what civilized people do in such situations.


Let you go on implying to anyone with half a brain reading that we treat others unfairly, without defending ourselves at all.

Not "we". Some. Some portion, which I believe to me a minorty, do. And some of you get very defensive about the comment which, when it continued so vehemently, is leading me to the "a guilty mind needs no accuser" observation as a possible answer as to why. I'd be the first to admit I don't know you well enough to know that for sure.


No thank you! When someone insults me, even if they are vague about it, I'm going to defend myself. :P

See. That's my point. Did I say anywhere this specifically applies to YOU? I said some people in clubs don't play well with others and this makes clubs worse than they ought to be. The application of the golden rule would resolve that.

Anywhere in that is Princessjass mentioned?


ETA - I decided to be Captain Obvious here. GR, would you say I was calling you an asshole if I said something like...."Well, GR, I would preach to everyone constantly too, but yanno, I'm not an asshole."

I likely would but that isn't remotely what I said.

There are three parts in that comment that are missing that, because they are, render you point moot.

The connection to me in your example above is the preaching comment. You have commented on me preaching before so we know that when you say that you are referencing me. I never stated anywhere that I think any of you have BP disorders.

There is no connection therefore to anyone present other than the only people referenced in the statement [those reading along].

I don't reference myself in the comment as a contrast as you yourself in the example above. I reference only the lurkers [those reading along].

So the comment can, and should, be taken to mean ONLY that I don't think the lurkers have BP disorders, NOT that I am saying anyone else has them. If you don't like standard English sentence structure don't blame me. I know what I meant when I wrote it and what you attribute to it ain't it.

Golden_Rule
10-18-2009, 05:57 PM
so if we're all acting right here, and there is only a minority that doesn't follow the golden rule, as in all businesses... what's the issue?? what are you agreeing to disagree about?

Fine! You win.

There isn'tt the juxtaposition of human behavior I've commented on. No one does anything bad to the dancers. No one does anything bad to the customers. No management isn't out for itself to the detriment of customers and dancers alike. Its just the fun I've commented on in other threads [and yes, it is fun or why go].

Now this is getting bizarre. I'm walking away. You can either do the same or take a final shot. I'm suggesting the choice could be quite telling, but as you have attempted to point out, what the hell would I know. ::)

Elvia and Chris the same holds with you two. I'm finished. I might take a break as I can only stand so much fun and frolic.

laurcon
10-18-2009, 08:47 PM
Fine! You win.


yaaaay!! i knew it was possible! like tony robbins says, if i can envision it, it can happen... and it has! i seriously knew it wasn't a lost cause. a lot of people said laurcon, it can't happen, he'll never concede to us. but just like i get my customers to shape up to my high standards, apparently i can do it to guys that post here too! much like once a customer hands me money, i haven't read the rest of that post, i don't need to hear anything else. i have it and i'm satisfied, end of story... no refunds!}:D

Earl_the_Pearl
10-18-2009, 09:25 PM
much like once a customer hands me money, i haven't read the rest of that post, i don't need to hear anything else. i have it and i'm satisfied, end of story... no refunds!}:D
That is the reason I carry $100 in singles whenever I go to a club once a bill is given to a dancer it is forgotten.

laurcon
10-18-2009, 09:48 PM
That is the reason I carry $100 in singles whenever I go to a club once a bill is given to a dancer it is forgotten.

and that's the reason i work in manhattan and not jersey anymore ;D

Earl_the_Pearl
10-18-2009, 10:00 PM
and that's the reason i work in manhattan and not jersey anymore ;D
Jersey will be here for you if you ever need us. I have a large bill in my front pocket; dancers can reach in a grab it.

bem401
10-19-2009, 05:29 AM
You wouldn't expect there to be a problem? I dunno BEM I've seen lot's of guys told to leave and even physically ejected over the years for arguing with dancers about money. I've seen very little rational mediation...in fact, I haven't seen any! I don't know if you have discovered a new club in RI that I haven't been to yet but it's generally pretty much frontier justice and the club/dancer is always right. You pay and you learn your lesson. Or you refuse to pay and get asked to leave. It's usually one or the other.

Well, I was responding to X's scenario which seemed to include a beat down. I even included the word "leave" in my comment and said he should pay the dancer for the elapsed time, therefore he'd be getting nothing for free. I don't see how the club would try to make you pay for services that were never rendered. Just my opinion...

If I ever allowed myself to fall into a jackpot like this, I'd opt for choice B ( refuse to pay for anything more than the elapsed time and get asked to leave). But since I don't enter into thousand dollar agreements with people I don't know in a club where I'm not known, there's little chance of that happening.

I've not heard much about the "new" club you mention other than it is supposed to be very nice relative to what it was like. It's sort of like "the forgotten club" in RI.

xdamage
10-19-2009, 06:34 AM
There are ways to handle situations and ways not to handle situations. I never said he should be able to walk. If he asked for a host, said he was sold a false bill of goods, wished to pay for the elapsed time and leave, I wouldn't expect there to be a problem. Making a scene, refusing to pay, and running for the door wouldn't be a good plan.


Well, I was responding to X's scenario which seemed to include a beat down. I even included the word "leave" in my comment and said he should pay the dancer for the elapsed time, therefore he's be getting nothing for free. I don't see how the club would try to make you pay for services that were never rendered. And I don't understand why he'd want to stay at that point anyhow.

To be honest bem I don't know what a big Vegas SC would do if a customer walked out 1/4the way into the VIP time.

You're seeing it from the PoV of a mature adult with plenty of years behind you, sober, from an arm chair. He from the PoV of a 21 yr old, by that time so drunk he could barely walk, in an environment he acted new too, surrounded by bouncers.

And this happened around the same time that Crazy Horse II's bouncers beat a customer to death vs say, just calling in LE and filling a report and taking the guy to court over a matter of ~$80. The bouncers, and owners are legal adults, yet apparently being an adult is not enough to prevent people from doing stupid things, like killing a man over < $100. I'm doubtful it is the first time a customer has been roughed up, just the case were one died and it went public. As I said, most of us would rather our SC spending not be public.

See in theory the solution is super simple. Have customers pay all the fees in advance, and make it clear what they are paying for, but the problem is that is not the way to make the maximum amount of money and so it's not the way they do business.

And here is the fundamental problem -

See if you hang out in a bar in Vegas after 10pm a guy will be solicited by escorts who are typically less clear about what is being offered, but nevertheless are offering prostitution. The hotel owners allow this to go on on. LE seemingly looks the other way. Everyone acts like it is legal even though technically it is not. But if LE wanted to, even if one doesn't complete the act, it is illegal to offer sex for money in Vegas. Tourists visiting Vegas though are often confused about the legality of prostitution.

Plus somewhere along the way the defacto standard in SCs has become to act like GFs, which has slowly but surely lead into behavior that steps into the solicitation (e.g., if you imply to a guy you want to fuck up, or suck his cock, or whatever in the VIP room) is that solicitation or acting?

I actually don't know if the law allows acting like an escort in a SC, but I do believe that it is not common knowledge what is act and what is real. That because most people only visit SCs on rare occasion, if customers really do believe they are loved, going to get laid, or whatever other delusion, then that is proof enough that the public doesn't commonly know it is just fantasy.

Again though the problem is the conflict of interest. It is what brings in the most money into the club, but business don't operate in vacuums. They make money in the context of a society, and the society has a right to limit profits if the way a business operates leaves too many people confused about what they are buying.

I think my main frustration then when SCs is that they operate in the gray area, pushing the limits of human behavior because it is profitable, but then we're shocked that some people act badly and can't handle it. At some point we just can't worry about it too much. We go (or not), enjoy or time off, watch our own backs, and accept that the business is both profitable, and self-propagating it's own problems because when all other complaints are put aside, the dancers and club owners operate their business the way they do because it is what they believe will make the most money (at least in the short term). They are probably right, and probably right not to worry about how short term choices impact on the long term image/profits of the industry. It's a get in, earn as much as one can, get out business.

bem401
10-19-2009, 07:40 AM
^^^^ I understand all you said. It's a situation I would never allow myself to be caught in and shame on everyone involved. " A fool and his money are soon to part". He never should have been gullible enough to expose himself to such manipulations but that doesn't justified his being scammed (if in fact he was) either. If I thought I was being ripped off, I'd still go my route and take my chances (at least in Providence).

xdamage
10-19-2009, 09:07 AM
^^^^ I understand all you said. It's a situation I would never allow myself to be caught in and shame on everyone involved. " A fool and his money are soon to part". He never should have been gullible enough to expose himself to such manipulations but that doesn't justified his being scammed (if in fact he was) either. If I thought I was being ripped off, I'd still go my route and take my chances (at least in Providence).

bem, the $50 add on fee was my first VIP experience too. The thing is I was already old enough to know to be careful, but I recall being 16, 18, 21, and so on and looking back I see my trust in others has decreased over the years. Even during my first VIP experience I could see the tell tale signs of lying that we people have a crappy time hiding, that told me the $400 an hour was the correct amount, the extra $50 a rip off, and the failure to mention the required bar fee until after we were in the room, yet another scam way of doing business.

But when you're a bit older and wiser you just get use to it, expect it, know that some people are honest to a fault; some push the limits of what is honest; some are down right dis-honest. That except for the best sociopaths and actors most have tells. To be honest I acted pretty naive and in some ways was. I hadn't been back to a SC in 10 years before and things had changed a lot. Hey one reason I'm on SCJ was I wanted to find out, does she really like me?

The thing is we people have social norms of how we behave with each other - it is what we learn and apply every day of our lives and those behaviors are assumed to have some meaning. And they do for all but the sociopaths and some few venues where the person is an actor, but even in a restaurant, most business owners are sincerely happy to see customers come in on some level.

The problem is SCs are operating in the realm of pretend love and physical attraction and it exceeds norms to such a great degree that is hardly surprising that it leaves some people confused that it is fantasy. To the actors it is clear, because they do it 40+ a week. The those of us who rarely visit SCs it is not necessarily and can result in us normal people spending a lot until we get it. Hey, it is what works.. more power to the sellers.

But even so, not everyone is mature enough to avoid every situation they should not be in. Alcohol further leaves most people less clear headed.

Vegas though is not in business to help people think clearly. It is in business to make money. Great. But if the business is not regulated to inform consumers of the reality then consumers need to do so. In the end I don't blame anyone for making a living but I still warn people not to assume others have their best interest at heart.

yoda57us
10-19-2009, 10:24 AM
I don't see how the club would try to make you pay for services that were never rendered. Just my opinion...

OK, just try it some time and let me know how it works out for ya! Just my opinion...


If I ever allowed myself to fall into a jackpot like this, I'd opt for choice B ( refuse to pay for anything more than the elapsed time and get asked to leave). But since I don't enter into thousand dollar agreements with people I don't know in a club where I'm not known, there's little chance of that happening.

I'm with you on this BEM, I would never find myself in this situation either. In fact, I can't even comprehend it...


I've not heard much about the "new" club you mention other than it is supposed to be very nice relative to what it was like. It's sort of like "the forgotten club" in RI.

I was being facetious BEM (gee, I hope that's the right word)...

Earl_the_Pearl
10-19-2009, 04:20 PM
The bouncers, and owners are legal adults, yet apparently being an adult is not enough to prevent people from doing stupid things, like killing a man over < $100. I'm doubtful it is the first time a customer has been roughed up, just the case were one died and it went public.
They enjoy what they do and they do it very well; strong arm robbery with plausible deniability is very profitable.

bem401
10-19-2009, 04:32 PM
OK, just try it some time and let me know how it works out for ya! Just my opinion...

I think if I said I've changed my mind and want to leave but will pay for what I've gotten so far and leave immediately, it would be acceptable. I might very well be wrong. But if I was $200 into an $800 experience and thought I was being ripped off, I'm not willingly giving up the balance. Again, its a moot question anyhow since I'm not stupid enough to put myself in this position and I have no fear that I would ever get roughed up by bouncers at any of the Providence clubs I would ever be tempted to visit..

I've actually had 2 money disputes in my 7+ years of visiting clubs. Once I was overcharged and offered to mediate it with a host. The girl didn't want to pursue it and took what I said I owed. Another time, I couldn't get $$$ out of the ATM. I said I'd have to pay her another time and left immediately, but I didn't get roughed up. Being told to leave was fully expected but no one made a big deal out of it, and i really didn't even know the girl all that well. I did square up the next time I ran into her.

As far as the K2U/Dollhouse discussion, I don't know what you're getting at. I went to K2U once and wasn't impressed and have no interest in driving 30 minutes to check it out now, though I have heard its been fixed up quite nicely.

yoda57us
10-19-2009, 05:19 PM
As far as the K2U/Dollhouse discussion, I don't know what you're getting at. I went to K2U once and wasn't impressed and have no interest in driving 30 minutes to check it out now, though I have heard its been fixed up quite nicely.

BEM, try and follow me...there has been no K2U/Dollhouse discussion. I was sarcastically implying that you must hang out in some mythical strip club where dancer/customer disputes are mediated by impartial SC hosts....such a place does not exist anywhere but in your mind.

But you are right, since you don't spend any money you will never have to worry about being involved in any disputes inside of a strip club...

Djoser
10-19-2009, 05:43 PM
So the next time its feels a bit "off" to be taking that $300 of the guy that gives you every reason to believe he doesn't have two nickles to rub together...

OK I see your point, and of course there are predatory dancers, just as there are predatory customers, bouncers, DJs, managers, and owners.

But if you bothered to read anything Elvia has ever posted you would know better than to lecture her concerning elementary ethics. All you do when you try that is to insult her.

Getting back to the OP. Times are still tough. I remember about the beginning of last summer it was like the guys just suddenly stopped tipping nearly as much. That was bad enough, but within the last month or two they stopped tipping even more (OK bad grammar but you know what I mean).

Personally I'd rather see a busy club with not quite as many lapdances being sold but steady tipping going on, than a dead club. But I can sure see how it is frustrating as hell for the dancers. And busting my ass on a busy night but not making as much--because the dancers aren't making as much--also sucks.

But the non-tipping is starting to piss me off these days. Such that I will occasionally stop the music (for a few seconds anyway) and say 'OK what's wrong with this picture? Strippers are for tipping!' etc., etc.

Now I do not like those clubs where the dancers go around collecting tips after stage sets, as I do not feel like every customer needs to tip every dancer, especially in those clubs where the goddamned owners are hiring every pig that walks in the door just for another house fee. But if you are watching the stage, yeah you damned well need to tip the fucking girls.

I happen to know the OP is a very beautiful woman who deserves to be well paid for her time on or offstage, and who also has a highly developed conscience: so to lecture her on proper etiquette or spouting off nonsense about 'having all the gold' and 'making the rules' is insulting and pointless.

Some rare and special women are walking, talking, and most especially dancing works of Art. They make their own rules, as well they should...

Earl_the_Pearl
10-19-2009, 05:57 PM
Now I do not like those clubs where the dancers go around collecting tips after stage sets, as I do not feel like every customer needs to tip every dancer, especially in those clubs where the goddamned owners are hiring every pig that walks in the door just for another house fee. But if you are watching the stage, yeah you damned well need to tip the fucking girls.

I happen to know the OP is a very beautiful woman who deserves to be well paid for her time on or offstage, and who also has a highly developed conscience: so to lecture her on proper etiquette or spouting off nonsense about 'having all the gold' and 'making the rules' is insulting and pointless.


The dollar parade is the only way I have ever seen in clubs.

I was the one that said he who has the gold makes the rules insulting perhaps, pointless only in SCs.

Djoser
10-19-2009, 06:14 PM
Well I'm not suggesting crucifixion or anything, and you are correct--there sure are some women out there who expect the world for just getting on a stage somewhere or just walking up to a table full of guys. They are dead wrong, and if they try pulling shit on me because they mistake me for a customer type, it doesn't get very far.

Then there are some women who really make their own rules, because they can--such as the OP. The ones with inner and outer beauty in rare combination. Thank all the gods there are a fair number of them in the clubs, and on this forum. The smart men who enjoy life to the fullest give them gold while agreeing with the perfectly reasonable rules.

I let them bitch all they want if they are having a bad night. In fact I will usually buy them a drink and tell them to take a break and sit down with me if they think it will help to relax a bit, not that I have a lot of time to chit chat. But even the most beautiful, charming, ethically balanced women will have a rough night now and then, especially these days. They deserve sympathy and understanding, not a lecture. You know what I mean?

chris91
10-19-2009, 06:23 PM
Fine! You win.

There isn'tt the juxtaposition of human behavior I've commented on. No one does anything bad to the dancers. No one does anything bad to the customers. No management isn't out for itself to the detriment of customers and dancers alike. Its just the fun I've commented on in other threads [and yes, it is fun or why go].

Now this is getting bizarre. I'm walking away. You can either do the same or take a final shot. I'm suggesting the choice could be quite telling, but as you have attempted to point out, what the hell would I know. ::)

Elvia and Chris the same holds with you two. I'm finished. I might take a break as I can only stand so much fun and frolic.

Ugh, You are impossible. I thought it would be enough to simply point out that a lot of the dancers here find your speeches to be rude and condescending, but apparently, you don't give a shit about offending us. I'm done for now too, but I'm sure you'll be back in another thread with more preaching for me to call bullshit on.

rockie
10-19-2009, 06:40 PM
At 12:24 PM today, Yoda and Bem agreed on something - at least for a nanosecond! Who'd have thought that was possible?:P

Earl_the_Pearl
10-19-2009, 06:50 PM
Then there are some women who really make their own rules, because they can--such as the OP. The ones with inner and outer beauty in rare combination. Thank all the gods there are a fair number of them in the clubs, and on this forum. The smart men who enjoy life to the fullest give them gold while agreeing with the perfectly reasonable rules.



"The Golden Rule: He Who Has the Gold Makes the Rules" is not to be taken literally unless it refers to a politician or employer. One does not have to obey the rules of an employer but one will not get any gold.

Of course things work differentially in a SC than they do IRL; workers follow the rules even though the rule maker does not give them any gold.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-19-2009, 06:53 PM
At 12:24 PM today, Yoda and Bem agreed on something - at least for a nanosecond! Who'd have thought that was possible?:P

Point of order; the agreement took place @ 1:24 PM EDT at the place of the agreement. ::)

rockie
10-19-2009, 07:04 PM
Earl: Point noted! The event blinded me to the actual moment recognized in real time!8)