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vmurphy252
10-26-2009, 03:23 PM
.....

Elvia
10-26-2009, 04:18 PM
I love the tip jar idea. I'd much rather just walk up and ask for money, than have to work and hope that someone gives me something. It's not weird if all the girls are doing it.

I just read a brief article in Spread magazine about "strip pubs" in England that do this. The girl dances for one or two songs, and then takes around a tip jar to collect a mandatory tip from every guy in the club. I can't remember if it's $1 per song or per set. Sounds ok to me.

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 05:26 PM
... it's also understandable that there is an assumption that the "support" aspect is still a key reason for the forum existence, and so as guests we have to be careful how far we cross the lines from being supportive into our own PoV that may appear quite negative (even if we mean well).

Here in lay the rub. If I am a guest than I am not a member, if a member not a guest. While I understand the nature of the host/guest relationship I do not, and will not, understand being a second class anything when I am a member of a group.

That isn't thinking unique to myself and it is precisely why true support forums should not be open to people outside the group being supported.

Because when you do invite others into support forums the choice becomes less support for the members who are part of the group intended to be supported or second class citizenship for the part of the group not intended to be supported.

Neither being satisfactory to the whole.

Elvia
10-26-2009, 05:32 PM
^^^If that's how you want to look at it, fine. Then you're a second class citizen here. Deal with it and behave accordingly, or go back to blue and be a first class citizen there.

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 06:00 PM
Oh, I wasn't suggesting that you mind your own business in regards to this forum. I was suggesting that you mind your own business when it comes to telling other people that they shouldn't buy lapdances/play poker etc.

You see, there is the problem. I am making suggestions and stating opinions but I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm a practical person and wouldn't waste my time telling folks I have no control over what to do. What would be the point?

However forums are about exchanging ideas and that is what I am doing. Everything about many of the posts you make in response to my attempting to do that suggest you want me to stop doing that.

Now I don't know where you come from but were I come from when folks try to keep other folks from expressing ideas we call that "censorship".


You see, what I find hypocritical is that you would be so rude as to stick your nose into the business of strangers, while going around giving everyone unsolicited lessons on how to act right.

I'm doing no such thing. I am using an open forum for expressly the purpose it was designed. To communicate ideas an opinion. You want me to stop doing it because you don't agree with them. The proof of that being you'd have absolutely no problem with what I was doing if you agreed with those opinions and ideas.

Stop and think. Then ask yourself if I were expressing thoughts you approved of would you be making a stink about it? Be honest.


Also, I don't dislike you because you disagree with me. I dislike you because you insist that your opinion is fact...

I state my opinions with confidence and conviction. May I point out that would be the exact same way you do. I do not, however, state them as fact. I point out quite clearly when I am stating fact and cite why I believe them to be [as above with the point GR being the the basis of common law, agreed on by the great philosophers and being generally accepted as fact by the general public - that isn't opinion, its fact and its labeled as such and why]


backpedal like crazy whenever anyone calls bullshit, constantly talk about what a good guy you are while judging everyone else, and because you're obnoxious.

If you think I back peddle you are certainly entitled to that opinion. I would disagree on that account and think you are, basically, full of it - as would be my right. I don't think I am a "good man" at all. I think I am a fair man, and I for the best reason of all - motivated self-interest. I treat others fairly because I desire to be treated fairly myself and realize you can't get unless you are willing to give.

You don't have to like me. You don't have to like my opinions. You don't even have to respect me. What you have to do is give me the same rights you'd give anyone else within these walls. The same room to speak my mind you'd give yourself, because I'm no different than you are in that regard. So please stop trying to shut me up and if you don't like what I have to say you are free to exercise your freewill not to listen, or comment [I'd prefer civil discourse but the choice is yours].

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 06:04 PM
^^^If that's how you want to look at it, fine. Then you're a second class citizen here. Deal with it and behave accordingly, or go back to blue and be a first class citizen there.

Yes, except that issue was addressed in some regard by Pryce, et al, when they made certain forums specifically for dancers and others open.

This is an open forum. It is called "Customer Conversation". I am a customer conversing [and might I add trying to do so politely].

Elvia
10-26-2009, 06:09 PM
[and might I add trying to do so politely].

and failing mightily.

Phil-W
10-26-2009, 06:14 PM
I just read a brief article in Spread magazine about "strip pubs" in England that do this. The girl dances for one or two songs, and then takes around a tip jar to collect a mandatory tip from every guy in the club. I can't remember if it's $1 per song or per set. Sounds ok to me.

Nearly right. The dancer collects a minimum of £1 ($1.60) from every guy in the pub before she dances. With 3 dancers working a shift, she will do 2 dances an hour - one song per dance.

Lap dances are on top of that - a girl might get £10 - £12 from a lap dance, after the pub has taken its cut.

It's OK in that girls have a semi guaranteed income from the jug collection, which she can then maximize by doing lap dances.

It's relatively rare for girls not to come away with some profit, but you still have to be a good hustler (with a stable of regulars) to be a top earner.

Phil.

yoda57us
10-26-2009, 06:38 PM
Because when you do invite others into support forums the choice becomes less support for the members who are part of the group intended to be supported or second class citizenship for the part of the group not intended to be supported.

So someone actually invited you to join this group?

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-26-2009, 08:35 PM
Most of the clubs I know of require girls to work a certain number of shifts a week and a weekend shift once a week or once a month. Some require a Sunday shift. Most fine you for calling out or arriving late. Some require you to phone your schedule in by a certain day or you are not allowed to work. One that my ATF just stared at does their scheduling a month in advance. Hell, one place I know of you used to fine you for wearing red shoes...just because they could.

Does any of this sound like the girls can just show up for work whenever they want?::)

Actually, all of the clubs I've ever worked at have had no required schedule, and no rules or fines if you do not come. A few clubs offer incentives if you DO schedule yourself, and you need to call in, for example. But the vast majority have no settings.

So, until I got to know how clubs worked in other parts of the country, and internationally, I had no idea that schedules were required, or fines imposed, or that management had so much control over strippers.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-26-2009, 08:37 PM
oh and also, the tip jug thing sounds bum to me too. really makes me think of a beggar like "can i have some coin please sir!" could people literally put in change? i mean, i guess its not so different than jersey style dollar parading, but the actual use of a jug, or any kind of tip jar, seems cheap or like workers at dunkin donuts. cheap isn't the word i'm really looking for but i'm drawing a blank. and i don't mean to offend any girls that do this, i'd really like to hear how you feel about it.

FYI, when I did it, wasn't for strip-tease dancing, rather another kind of dance that doesn't involve nudity. While 1-2 girls would dance onstage, or around the venue..one of us would walk around with a tip jar and gather tips for her. So, I don't have an apples:apples comparison. However, I have done the "top of the bar tip walk" thing across the bar after a stage set, and its not so bad, can actually be quite lucrative.

Golden_Rule
10-26-2009, 08:41 PM
and failing mightily.

That's your opinion. BTW, take a look in the mirror before making statements like that. ;D

This, "My rudeness is not rude but yours is, and my opinions mean more than yours", thing you have going on I don't find anything other than humorous, but I will point out that it is my opinion that if this is the tone you take with others IRL it won't serve you particularly well.

We are both cantankerous sorts but people are more apt to accept it coming from an older man than a young woman. :)

========The question was===========


Now I don't know where you come from but were I come from when folks try to keep other folks from expressing ideas we call that "censorship".

Stop and think. Then ask yourself if I were expressing thoughts you approved of would you be making a stink about it? Be honest.

chris91
10-26-2009, 09:41 PM
I'm going to chop these quotes real short to save space. They are just too damn long.


... we call that "censorship".

Come on dude, get real. I'm not trying to censor you. You are free to be as jerky as you want. You know that your preachy bullshit offends people, but you keep doing it. I can't stop you, but I can, and will, call you on it.



To communicate ideas an opinion.


Oh right. It's your opinion that it's wrong to sell dances to guys who are "off their game". When the dancers here explain to you that we don't believe it's wrong, and why, you just keep saying it's wrong and asking us how we can justify doing it while complaining about guys molesting us. Yeah that totally sounds like a guy expressing his opinion.


... if I were expressing thoughts you approved of would you be making a stink about it? Be honest.

If you were going around saying shit like "christian is the most wonderful woman in the world"? No I would not make a stink. Duh.



I state my opinions with confidence and conviction. May I point out that would be the exact same way you do. I do not, however, state them as fact. I point out quite clearly when I am stating fact and cite why I believe them to be [as above with the point GR being the the basis of common law, agreed on by the great philosophers and being generally accepted as fact by the general public - that isn't opinion, its fact and its labeled as such and why]

Ok, so you ask a question like (i'm paraphrasing): How can you justify treating customers poorly, while complaining about how they treat you?

It implies that these two things are understood facts:

1. We treat our customers poorly.
2. The "poor treatment" that we give customers is the same as the "poor treatment" they give us.

#1 is your opinion and #2 is simply false. You've been told by several different people that this question is impossible to answer because of the false implications it makes, but you just keep asking it over and over. It's like if I asked you "Hey GR, why is your vagina so stupid?" I've insulted you by implying that you are stupid and not allowing you any room to debate it, and I've distracted you by throwing in a blatant lie. It's an obnoxious thing that children do when they get bored and want to irritate someone.



What you have to do is give me the same rights you'd give anyone else within these walls....

So please stop trying to shut me up...

I'm actually not trying to shut you up. It would be nice if you would stop preaching about the golden rule, given that many people here have told you how condescending it is, but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon. As far as me giving you the same rights blah blah blah: I don't have anymore authority over you than you have over me. You're just being dramatic.

Elvia
10-26-2009, 10:55 PM
That's your opinion. BTW, take a look in the mirror before making statements like that. ;D

This, "My rudeness is not rude but yours is, and my opinions mean more than yours", thing you have going on I don't find anything other than humorous, but I will point out that it is my opinion that if this is the tone you take with others IRL it won't serve you particularly well.

We are both cantankerous sorts but people are more apt to accept it coming from an older man than a young woman. :)


1) Not every opinion is equally valid. In regards to how strippers should do theirjobs, the opinion of someone who is not a stripper and has never worked in an SC, is likely not going to be as valid as the opinions of those who have actually worked as a dancer. i.e., and educated opinion.

2) I'm clearly not the only one around here who finds much if not most of your behavior to be rude, arrogant, and insulting.

3) This is not the tone I take with everyone, it is the tone I take with you. Because you are a person who's behavior tells me you are not worthy of my respect. I find the vast majority of people in the world to be much less rude, arrogant, hypocritical, and condescending. And actually much better at following the golden rule than yourself. It's not uncommon for people to make it known around here that they find you frequently rude and inappropriate, and you in turn make it clear that you don't give a shit. So please stop expecting everyone to show respect for you. You get back what you put out, and you clearly have no intention of returning the favor. Only in deluding yourself that you are doing so.

Elvia
10-26-2009, 10:59 PM
As for this censorship bullshit, no one is trying to "censor" you. They may be suggesting that you have a little tact and remember that it's not your place to go giving condescending, unsolicited lectures, but that's a far cry from being censored. You're free to say mostly whatever you want, but if it makes you come across as a douchebag, people are going to let you know.

Golden_Rule
10-27-2009, 12:51 AM
Come on dude, get real. I'm not trying to censor you. You are free to be as jerky as you want. You know that your preachy bullshit offends people, but you keep doing it. I can't stop you, but I can, and will, call you on it.

Well first off my legit apologies to anyone who finds it "preachy" as that isn't the intent, BUT...

... it appears that the majority of people around here do what people do when presented with material that might be offensive or troubling to them but comes from a source which has no power over them: they tune it out [and what could be found offensive and troubling about advocating the golden rule I truly can't fathom]. Only a small minority of people in this thread which I can count on the fingers of one hand and have fingers left over when finished feel compelled to attempt to silence the ideas and opinions being spoken by myself.


Oh right. It's your opinion that it's wrong to sell dances to guys who are "off their game". When the dancers here explain to you that we don't believe it's wrong, and why, you just keep saying it's wrong and asking us how we can justify doing it while complaining about guys molesting us. Yeah that totally sounds like a guy expressing his opinion.

No. What I am doing is asking people who are stating an opinion to back it up with the "Why." of it and not accepting, "Because I do." as a response. Its a serious, at least on my part, discussion about the nature of human behavior. I'm treating it as such.

It can be done without getting hot headed about it.

What I gather from the nature of some peoples dialog is that, whether directly knowing it or not, they are attempting to turn up the heat on this with use of terms like douche bag, etc, to either get me to step into a pot hole and get myself banned [sorry, not going to happen based on simply my actions - I am not going to call anyone names, etc] or get the thread closed. It bothers those people that much. Though frankly I can't understand why?

As I suggested elsewhere these are simply opinions and this is just a conversation. If you find it troubles you it is simply a matter of tuning out the white noise and allowing others who aren't offended by it, or even interested, to discuss it without it bothering you.


If you were going around saying shit like "christian is the most wonderful woman in the world"? No I would not make a stink. Duh.

Duh? Duh indeed. Now take that to the next logical step. [hint: its the content, not the context, that appears to be your issue... you like hearing "Christian is the most wonderful woman in the world", you don't like, "I hear what you are saying but the argument you are presenting doesn't hold water unless you care to back it up with more than "because I said so".] You have a legit argument if the context I am presenting [name calling, etc] is an issue. Your argument goes away if it is simply the content. Attempting to ban content IS censorship.


Ok, so you ask a question like (i'm paraphrasing): How can you justify treating customers poorly, while complaining about how they treat you?

It implies that these two things are understood facts:

1. We treat our customers poorly.
2. The "poor treatment" that we give customers is the same as the "poor treatment" they give us.

1) The content of my argument is philosophical/ethical. Its how does one justify, not how do YOU justify. If the context does go to YOU during the discussion it is how do you validate a point YOU just made. It is not accusing you of any actual action, just asking you to back up what you said. You can't seem to keep from making this personal, which is in my opinion why it pisses you off as much as it does.

2a) I have accused absolutely no one of bad behavior the clubs. I don't know you and don't know how you treat your customers in the clubs you work in. 2b) Poor behavior is poor behavior. What you are speaking of after that is a matter of degree as to how much damage is done. The root at the source of it, the indifference to another's humanity, is the same regardless.


I'm actually not trying to shut you up. It would be nice if you would stop preaching about the golden rule, given that many people here have told you how condescending it is...


Again, its not many. Its basically three. I have offered all three, on several occasions, olive branches in the form of lets simply agree to disagree and move on and I'll drop it unless it is to respond to some new point brought up or an attack on my character and each time one of the three has either brought up a new point or made an attack on my character.

Its like: If you don't want the dog to bark don't hit it with the stick. Then you hit it with the stick and complain when the dog barks. ::)

If you want me to stop LET IT GO. If you think I am the dog and you want me to stop barking put the stick down. :)


I don't have anymore authority over you than you have over me.

Please don't be offended when I suggest that is the most logical thing you have said in this thread.


You're just being dramatic.

Again, a statement best served by a "mirror check" before its being made.

Now, once again, I truly do wish you well [and can do so legitimately because for me to dislike someone I actually have to know them well enough to dislike them... I don't know you at all and don't claim to] and ask that if you truly don't want to discuss this with me... stop discussing it with me. Or don't, because I don't have an issue talking about it with you, but I would like to keep it civil. :)

Quite literally your choice.

chris91
10-27-2009, 01:06 AM
^^ How do you manage to come up with so much nonsense all at once? Everything in this post is either wrong or irrelevant. You're like a bullshit spewing robot.

Golden_Rule
10-27-2009, 01:08 AM
As for this censorship bullshit, no one is trying to "censor" you. They may be suggesting that you have a little tact and remember that it's not your place to go giving condescending, unsolicited lectures, but that's a far cry from being censored. You're free to say mostly whatever you want, but if it makes you come across as a douchebag, people are going to let you know.

^^^ There she goes again.

Think... its because you believe what I am saying makes me sound like a douche bag and what you are claiming is your right to point that out if it is what you truly believe.

And that is different precisely how from my claiming the arguments you are making aren't sound and you aren't backing them up with anything of any merit, and claiming the right to say so because that is what I truly believe? [other than your being ruder about it in my opinion, that is]

Why do you get to say that here but I should dry up and go away?

Work the logic through and think critically, not just to what I am saying but to what you are going to say before you say it.

And before you say it, NO I am not suggesting you are stupid or trying to be condescending in saying the above - quite frankly I wouldn't bother discussing anything with you if I thought that. What I do think is that you are impulsive and rather too easily annoyed. I can relate though... it is a decidedly human characteristic. I share the impulsive bit of it myself, though I have a very thick skin [goes with my thick skull] and it takes a huge effort to get me truly annoyed. Nothing on a website short of a true threat - of the nature of posting my true name and address at least - is going to be able to do that. Nor do I believe it ought to be different for anyone else.

These are just ideas. Harmless except for the power they are given by others.

wishing well...

Golden_Rule
10-27-2009, 01:14 AM
^^ How do you manage to come up with so much nonsense all at once? Everything in this post is either wrong or irrelevant.

There is not anything in that long post you wish to comment on more directly. You dismiss it all with the above.

Shame on me for thinking the ones here who complain the loudest don't back up their critical statements with anything of any merit.

I couldn't have asked you to prove my point any better than you just did.



You're like a bullshit spewing robot.


Because you say so...

You made a statement, prove it, or be prepared to be called on it. That's all I have been doing.

Yours above is an attempt at character assault and, of course, is precisely what I said would draw a response.

Whack goes Chris with the stick on the dog even as she complains yet again about the dogs barking which is brought about by hitting the dog with the stick, which will cause her to complain some more as she hits the dog with the stick which will cause the dog to bark more as she complains about the dog barking as she hits it with the stick which will cause it to bark more as she complains...

I agree we disagree and unless you give the dog something new to bark about...

Hopper
10-27-2009, 01:19 AM
Not taking sides here GR but your posts would have more effect if they were shorter and to the point. For a start more people would have time to read them.

Golden_Rule
10-27-2009, 01:25 AM
Not taking sides here GR but your posts would have more effect if they were shorter and to the point. For a start more people would have time to read them.

I don't feel like you are taking sides. Sounds like your intent is to help and it is appreciated.

I disagree that they aren't to the point but I do understand you about being shorter.

It is hard though to discuss something so complex as human behavior in posts of a single paragraph or two. At least I find it to be the case.

To back up what I am saying I would point out that you find people who are taking the discussion seriously also writing long posts, like [pardon me for dragging your name into it] Xdamage. His are longer for the same reason, I hope, mine are. He doesn't just state a position but backs it up with the "why of it".

[Please also note that he doesn't agree with me on all of this but we manage to keep the dialog quite civil. We are just people discussing ideas. Which one might hope this whole thread should be.]

Hopper
10-27-2009, 01:58 AM
Yes, xdamage posts lenghty comments also. But you post more often. I think you could both cut down on psychological insights and sociological speculation.

chris91
10-27-2009, 03:30 AM
There is not anything in that long post you wish to comment on more directly. You dismiss it all with the above.

Shame on me for thinking the ones here who complain the loudest don't back up their critical statements with anything of any merit.


GR, I don't have all damn day to pick your mile long post apart and explain it all to you yet again. I backed up my statements when I made them. Not that I needed to, as all of your previous posts are still up in this thread. You go back and forth between "These are facts" and "These are opinions" as it suits you, and I simply cannot argue with that kind of nonsense.

I see this devolving into an "am not/are too" game, and that shit just doesn't interest me. Don't cry. :'( I'm sure we'll fight again someday.

shmishing shmell...

xdamage
10-27-2009, 04:31 AM
Not taking sides here GR but your posts would have more effect if they were shorter and to the point. For a start more people would have time to read them.

I don't think so. Your point that women should not be presidents or judges was "short". The only effect it had was to generates reams of negative replies, by which time you were compelled to lay out your dozens of underlying psychological/social assumptions and belief system, but one snipe at a time. It wasn't less total volume, it was just less anticipatory of how people might respond, and so you ended up writing out much more then you would have needed to had you anticipated some of people's thoughts up front. They read your one liner, but you said yourself they didn't understand what you really meant.

No GRs point is not working because he is raising a controversial matter. The only way to really keep things short is to avoid controversy and be agreeable. That may in fact be what people want of course.

But if controversy is what actually keeps the site interesting over the long run (and I suspect it does), the Golden Rule in all things is a reasonable life strategy, but the dynamics of the situation are like so:

1.) Imagine this was an open support forum for LE, where LE went to discuss the difficulties of being a cop, and to destress.

2.) Imagine there was an open portion for the public to give their opinion.

3.) Imagine someone from the public comes in and insists that some (not all) cops are out of control, wielding power indiscriminately and giving examples of the worst of the worst cases.

What would the response be?

Most likely some cops would take great offense. Even if on some level they've seen the very problem that is being pointed out, even if the general public impression aligns that some cops are out of control, as a support forum for those in the business they are on the forum for a different reason.

GR has said that since the forum is open to the public that is what is going to happen. I agree it will, and I respect his attempt to explain himself, but in this case the forums remain open to customers under the assumption that we are second class citizens, and it is trusted that we will restrain ourselves. It's a point where we disagree but do so in a friendly way (then again I'm not a dancer so feel no negative feelings in response to his comments).

Hopper
10-27-2009, 06:30 AM
I don't think so. Your point that women should not be presidents or judges was "short". The only effect it had was to generates reams of negative replies, by which time you were compelled to lay out your dozens of underlying psychological/social assumptions and belief system, but one snipe at a time. It wasn't less total volume, it was just less anticipatory of how people might respond, and so you ended up writing out much more then you would have needed to had you anticipated some of people's thoughts up front. They read your one liner, but you said yourself they didn't understand what you really meant.

For most of that argument we got side-tracked into a load of other issues. Not that many of my posts in that argument were in actually response to that issue.

I can't anticipate people's illogical responses, misreadings, false assumptions, preconceived notions etc. I say what I think and field the fall-out as it comes. It's impossible to anticipate every possible response. Proof of that is that your own anticipatory posts generate more responses. It requires discussion from all sides.


No GRs point is not working because he is raising a controversial matter. The only way to really keep things short is to avoid controversy and be agreeable. That may in fact be what people want of course.

But if controversy is what actually keeps the site interesting over the long run (and I suspect it does), the Golden Rule in all things is a reasonable life strategy, but the dynamics of the situation are like so:

1.) Imagine this was an open support forum for LE, where LE went to discuss the difficulties of being a cop, and to destress.

2.) Imagine there was an open portion for the public to give their opinion.

3.) Imagine someone from the public comes in and insists that some (not all) cops are out of control, wielding power indiscriminately and giving examples of the worst of the worst cases.

What would the response be?

Most likely some cops would take great offense. Even if on some level they've seen the very problem that is being pointed out, even if the general public impression aligns that some cops are out of control, as a support forum for those in the business they are on the forum for a different reason.

GR has said that since the forum is open to the public that is what is going to happen. I agree it will, and I respect his attempt to explain himself, but in this case the forums remain open to customers under the assumption that we are second class citizens, and it is trusted that we will restrain ourselves. It's a point where we disagree but do so in a friendly way (then again I'm not a dancer so feel no negative feelings in response to his comments).

I can think of a number of other ways that GR could keep it short.

xdamage
10-27-2009, 07:46 AM
I can't anticipate people's illogical responses, misreadings, false assumptions, preconceived notions etc. I say what I think and field the fall-out as it comes. It's impossible to anticipate every possible response. Proof of that is that your own anticipatory posts generate more responses. It requires discussion from all sides.


It is impossible to anticipate EVERY possible response, but there is something between extremes, all or nothing. There is a gray area in the middle where you could anticipate the most common responses when you have a controversial opinion. Chances are if you have a controversial view you have had to defend it before, so it is possible to think about common responses. One sign that you've thought it through yourself is you've considered previous disagreement and have a coherent response.

What we really can't anticipate is other peoples logical responses, different readings, identifying our false assumptions, perceiving our own preconceived notions etc. If we could we would have already accounted for them in our own PoVs.

One reason people are brief though is they don't actually question their own PoV. Even racists and sexists can state their PoV extremely briefly (mostly because they feel it strongly, and the feeling is extremely clear and simple). It doesn't mean they really have thought about it though. Just means they are extremely clear what they think and assume others who don't agree are all confused. Stating a strong (though invalid) opinion briefly can also just be a sign of an extremely rigid mind that is un-open to self-analysis, reconsideration. And yes, I know the psych stuff irks you ;)

laurcon
10-27-2009, 11:24 AM
i'm seriously so confused. has GR ever addressed the idea that dancers are following the golden rule and treating others as they would like to be treated, but not the way GR would like to be treated? and why is he saying that the dancers are backing up their arguments with "because i said so"?? i must have missed those posts because the ones i've read from the girls have supported their opinion that they are dealing fairly by citing instances where they've wanted to spend their money as they choose or other similar anecdotes.
thank god GR can only post in customer conversation. although apparently guys are allowed in picture post too? is that it? i really hope so.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-27-2009, 03:04 PM
I can't be bothered to read through GR's or X's long ass posts. And amazingly enough, they've been posting these novels for years, and never seem to run out of energy.

Elvia
10-27-2009, 03:40 PM
thank god GR can only post in customer conversation. although apparently guys are allowed in picture post too? is that it? i really hope so.

No, unfortunately. The lounge, life support, etc. Anything not directly stripping related or "ladies only." Which is why I mainly post my threads in LO, so I don't have to deal with him and a couple other (rather trollish) male members. Which is too bad, because there's a lot of guys who's contributions I would appreciate.

Elvia
10-27-2009, 03:49 PM
For most of that argument we got side-tracked into a load of other issues. Not that many of my posts in that argument were in actually response to that issue.

I can't anticipate people's illogical responses, misreadings, false assumptions, preconceived notions etc. I say what I think and field the fall-out as it comes. It's impossible to anticipate every possible response. Proof of that is that your own anticipatory posts generate more responses. It requires discussion from all sides.


Ok, quick threadjack...but seriously? You couldn't predict that coming to a support forum for women and saying that women aren't qualified to work in certain fields just by virtue of being born female wouldn't go over well? really? You simply could not have forseen that? Wow. /threadjack.

Golden_Rule
10-28-2009, 01:12 AM
i'm seriously so confused. has GR ever addressed the idea that dancers are following the golden rule and treating others as they would like to be treated, but not the way GR would like to be treated?

Yes, he did. Multiple times.

I said that the majority of dancers and customers do at least lip service to the golden rule. Quite a few better than that. However, just like the fact that the criminal element is only a small percentage of our actual number [1/10th of 1% or 1:1000 of the general population are recidivists or career criminals - source, O.W. Wilson] but manage to make quite a bit of trouble it is the percentage of customers and dancers alike that are willing to do damage to each other that are the source of the "bad faith stew" I reference.

Much, but I admit not all, of the bad things that happen in clubs are due to those folks in this way: The behavioral response of people, good to evil, can be represented by a curve [example]:

http://www.racerocks.com/racerock/education/curricula/projects/normalcurve.jpg

In which one side of the curve represent the small percentage that will do wrong all the time, travels along the curves continuum to the other side representing people who will do right all of the time. Those in the middle, to greater or lesser degree, are good or bad dependent upon various circumstances and behavioral modifiers. Like the likelihood of being caught and punished for instance, or the need to be respected by people they care about for another.

What I am suggesting is that this small percentage of "bad faith" types, those paying no heed to the golden rule, create an environment where others, customers and dancers alike, who wouldn't normally do wrong to each other feel less constrained to behave well.

In other words bad shit begets more bad shit. Good people tolerating bad shit also allows for more bad shit. [The cliche regarding the treatment of the Jews in German controlled territories during WW2 is a tried and true example... could it have happened, could Hilter have risen to power or remained in it if the good people of Germany hadn't tolerated the atrocities is a little over the top for this scenario but it does get the idea across].

So the question I put to every S-C customer [myself included], manager, dancer alike is: "IF I believe I have things to complain about in the clubs. IF I feel things are wrong. What am I doing to add to the environment that allows for it to happen? That is where the general S-C'er, customer, manager and dancer, fit into the equation.

I'm not claiming even *I* never do things that add to the overall bad business. It could easily be questioned how much dancers providing extras, customers seeking them and management tolerating them adds to the mix.

I simple point out it is a valid question.

Hopper
10-28-2009, 01:19 AM
It is impossible to anticipate EVERY possible response, but there is something between extremes, all or nothing. There is a gray area in the middle where you could anticipate the most common responses when you have a controversial opinion. Chances are if you have a controversial view you have had to defend it before, so it is possible to think about common responses. One sign that you've thought it through yourself is you've considered previous disagreement and have a coherent response.

What we really can't anticipate is other peoples logical responses, different readings, identifying our false assumptions, perceiving our own preconceived notions etc. If we could we would have already accounted for them in our own PoVs.

One reason people are brief though is they don't actually question their own PoV. Even racists and sexists can state their PoV extremely briefly (mostly because they feel it strongly, and the feeling is extremely clear and simple). It doesn't mean they really have thought about it though. Just means they are extremely clear what they think and assume others who don't agree are all confused. Stating a strong (though invalid) opinion briefly can also just be a sign of an extremely rigid mind that is un-open to self-analysis, reconsideration. And yes, I know the psych stuff irks you ;)

I didn't say it to start a new argument. If other people want ot make an issue of it, it's up to them to defend their own point of view.

Hopper
10-28-2009, 01:26 AM
Ok, quick threadjack...but seriously? You couldn't predict that coming to a support forum for women and saying that women aren't qualified to work in certain fields just by virtue of being born female wouldn't go over well? really? You simply could not have forseen that? Wow. /threadjack.

That wasn't my point. I expect many of my comments to start controversy, because of how ideologically brainwashed and dogmatic society has become. What I meant here was that I can't anticipate WHAT all of the responses will be. Some of the standard programmed responses, yes; but as I said above, I don't feel obliged to justify everything I say as I say it.

Golden_Rule
10-28-2009, 01:33 AM
No, unfortunately. The lounge, life support, etc. Anything not directly stripping related or "ladies only." Which is why I mainly post my threads in LO, so I don't have to deal with him and a couple other (rather trollish) male members. Which is too bad, because there's a lot of guys who's contributions I would appreciate.

Ok, lets look at this realistically:

You suggest above that my posting is nothing you find any value in. You post the things you care about in "ladies only" threads specifically so you don't have to deal with me and folks like me.

Yet you continue to come into these threads were we are and interact with us.

Now if you find no value in our posting why interact? Where is the value in it for you? One can only sermonize its that you enjoy the taunting and other acts intellectual bad faith.[

Posters like myself post as we do because we actually believe what we write. We do so looking only to create points for thoughtful discourse and then to talk about them with others who might have interest. We are looking for intellectual exchange and honest debate of ideas.

So who is the actual troll here? Whose here in good faith and whose here to poke people with a stick?

I didn't put those words quoted above in your keyboard; you did, and they are very telling.

Just pointing out the obvious as I see it passing by...

Elvia
10-28-2009, 01:50 AM
There's some good stuff in customer conversation, so I don't see a reason to write it off entirely. Not the stuff you usually post, of course. And when I see something I strongly disagree with, I can't help but speak up. When it comes to personal or serious topics though, no, I don't want to deal with you.

laurcon
10-28-2009, 02:01 AM
nvm, sorry. GR wins.

Golden_Rule
10-28-2009, 02:16 AM
When it comes to personal or serious topics though, no, I don't want to deal with you.

Unless its to post and tell me I shouldn't be posting, why don't I go back to blue, or am a douche bag, or... ???

Come on, Elvia.. its fairly obvious. If you don't want anything to do with me, "of course", why do you keep responding and if I stop... as I have several times, write something specifically to me or about me to get me started again?

The answer would seem to be that you LIKE this: This type of exchange. And if I am right about WHY you like it, it makes you the troll. Of course I could be wrong, but the evidence to the contrary is beginning to tip the scale rather heavily.

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just pointing out what seems to be obvious as it goes by...

Elvia
10-28-2009, 02:22 AM
Unless its to post and tell me I shouldn't be posting, why don't I go back to blue, or am a douche bag, or... ???

Come on, El... You're fairly obvious. If you don't want anything to do with me, "of course", why do you keep responding and if I stop... as I have several times, write something specifically to me or about me to get me started again?

The answer would seem to be that you LIKE this: This type of exchange. And if I am right about WHY you like it, it makes you the troll. Of course I could be wrong, but the evidence to the contrary is beginning to tip the scale rather heavily.

Again, don't shoot the messenger. I'm just pointing out what seems to be obvious as it goes by...

Of course I enjoy a good on-line argument on some level. So do we all, including you, or you wouldn't be continuing either. You're free to stop at any time as well. I never said I don't want anything to do with you, I said when I want to discuss something serious or personal, then I don't want to deal with you. Nor did I ever say you shouldn't be posting, I've simply commented on the content of your postings, as is to be expected a message board.

Golden_Rule
10-28-2009, 02:29 AM
nvm, sorry. GR wins.

I saw your original... so let me answer.

Any society is an amalgam of the people in it. Microcosms of that society are no different.

So NO I am not saying that the grabby customer is the direct result of the good dancer, but indirectly - if the good dancer contributes to what allows for that behavior than to some small degree yes. REMEMBER that I am ALSO SAYING the GOOD CUSTOMER also contributes, indirect and to small degree, if he contributes to the bad environment that facilitates via tolerance for bad acts his being robbed, or damaged in any way in the club. Its NOT about dancers... its about EVERYBODY.

All I am saying is that WE, US, those that go to strip-clubs in our totality, make them what they are, either good or bad.

I don't see how anyone can actually argue against that as its pretty much true for the world in general?

And to the change... I'm not looking to win anything. All I'll looking for is civil discourse about something we all say we are interesting in, strip-clubs.

Elvia
10-28-2009, 02:31 AM
I saw your original... so let me answer.


:rotfl:

This is delicious irony, following up the "why won't everyone just let it stop when I say I'm done?" BS we've heard a million times now.

vmurphy252
10-28-2009, 06:04 AM
Yes, he did. Multiple times.

I said that the majority of dancers and customers do at least lip service to the golden rule. Quite a few better than that. However, just like the fact that the criminal element is only a small percentage of our actual number [1/10th of 1% or 1:1000 of the general population are recidivists or career criminals - source, O.W. Wilson] but manage to make quite a bit of trouble it is the percentage of customers and dancers alike that are willing to do damage to each other that are the source of the "bad faith stew" I reference.

Much, but I admit not all, of the bad things that happen in clubs are due to those folks in this way: The behavioral response of people, good to evil, can be represented by a curve [example]:



In which one side of the curve represent the small percentage that will do wrong all the time, travels along the curves continuum to the other side representing people who will do right all of the time. Those in the middle, to greater or lesser degree, are good or bad dependent upon various circumstances and behavioral modifiers. Like the likelihood of being caught and punished for instance, or the need to be respected by people they care about for another.

What I am suggesting is that this small percentage of "bad faith" types, those paying no heed to the golden rule, create an environment where others, customers and dancers alike, who wouldn't normally do wrong to each other feel less constrained to behave well.

In other words bad shit begets more bad shit. Good people tolerating bad shit also allows for more bad shit. [The cliche regarding the treatment of the Jews in German controlled territories during WW2 is a tried and true example... could it have happened, could Hilter have risen to power or remained in it if the good people of Germany hadn't tolerated the atrocities is a little over the top for this scenario but it does get the idea across].

So the question I put to every S-C customer [myself included], manager, dancer alike is: "IF I believe I have things to complain about in the clubs. IF I feel things are wrong. What am I doing to add to the environment that allows for it to happen? That is where the general S-C'er, customer, manager and dancer, fit into the equation.

I'm not claiming even *I* never do things that add to the overall bad business. It could easily be questioned how much dancers providing extras, customers seeking them and management tolerating them adds to the mix.

I simple point out it is a valid question.
Eugenics is the answer. And I had to delete the graph, well, just because...

xdamage
10-28-2009, 09:13 AM
Well FWIW I bought some dances on a whim Sunday.

I only casually counted, and she lost count.

When she asked the guy (there is no VIP room but there is a LD room) who notes the start/stop time, and he told us a number which was short by my count, and I could see on her face disappointing.

I paid her for what I counted, which included 2 more.

Now I could have paid for 2 less, but she treated me well, and I'd want to be paid fairly for my time if I was in her shoes.

Maybe that little matter will make no difference. Maybe it will have made her day and some good will passed on to the next customer. I'll likely never see her again, but the little things we do impact on each other and have ripple down effects.

And I think that is a key point GR is trying to make is that how we behave towards each other can feed into a downward spiral of negativity, and likewise small positives tend to feed into positive outcomes. Its just that the later requires faith that there is a pay off, and that the pay off may not be something we benefit from directly, but indirectly it works. The former usually downward spirals because short-term gains are put ahead of long term good.

GR probably saw that a lot as someone working in LE, people who tended to do what is best for themselves in the immediate short-term, so he probably tends to be very sensitive to it everywhere. Of course it is insulting if someone implies we are people who are short-sighted, so naturally the dancers are feeling insulted. He does seem to be saying though that customers are also often no angels.

FWIW that is how I view Karma, not as some mystical book-keeping, but I do see a pattern in life how we behave towards each other today has impacts on how we are likely to be treated in the future.

vmurphy252
10-28-2009, 10:55 AM
And I think that is a key point GR is trying to make is that how we behave towards each other can feed into a downward spiral of negativity, and likewise small positives tend to feed into positive outcomes. Its just that the later requires faith that there is a pay off, and that the pay off may not be something we benefit from directly, but indirectly it works. The former usually downward spirals because short-term gains are put ahead of long term good.
I haven't really seen anyone arguing this point. It's more the definition of the bad behavior in the examples he was giving. Is it morally wrong to let someone do something that might harm them or is it morally wrong to interfere with someone's adult choices?

laurcon
10-28-2009, 01:53 PM
I haven't really seen anyone arguing this point. It's more the definition of the bad behavior in the examples he was giving. Is it morally wrong to let someone do something that might harm them or is it morally wrong to interfere with someone's adult choices?

exactly. and to xdamage's post, i wouldn't even think of not paying for the extra dances! that'd be like getting back the wrong change and keeping it. or recently the blackjack dealer accidentally paid me out when i had already busted. i immediately told him and he said i saved his job. that just seems normal to me. i wouldn't dream of taking the money or getting one over on another person like that. i think most of my fellow dancers posting in this thread are the same way, and therefore we don't understand why this is even an issue for us. if other people are misbehaving, we're not cops, we're not judges, there's nothing for us to do but lead by example.

xdamage
10-28-2009, 03:14 PM
I haven't really seen anyone arguing this point. It's more the definition of the bad behavior in the examples he was giving. Is it morally wrong to let someone do something that might harm them or is it morally wrong to interfere with someone's adult choices?

Agreed. And yes I don't know the answer. For the most part I say let adults do what they will, and unfortunately a few may be harmed in the process, but the greater good is to let adults have the freedom to choose.

vmurphy252
10-28-2009, 03:15 PM
^That's my thought.

xdamage
10-28-2009, 03:24 PM
i wouldn't dream of taking the money or getting one over on another person like that. i think most of my fellow dancers posting in this thread are the same way, and therefore we don't understand why this is even an issue for us. if other people are misbehaving, we're not cops, we're not judges, there's nothing for us to do but lead by example.

Fortunately most people I meet (including dancers) have been honest people. Perhaps GR has been in the company of an above average percentage of dishonest people, and so he is more aware of dishonesty, or maybe his sensitivity to it is what drove him to become a cop in the first place and do something about it? He might however be a very good cop because of that passion, even if his zest for fair dealings and the matter comes across as accusatory in this forum.

FBR
10-28-2009, 08:32 PM
I don't mind a vigorous debate but I must insist you keep your comments non personal. You guys know the rules and it is irritating to have to remind you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

FBR

laurcon
10-29-2009, 12:41 AM
I don't mind a vigorous debate but I must insist you keep your comments non personal. You guys know the rules and it is irritating to have to remind you.

Thank you for your cooperation.

FBR

wow! just now??

laurcon
10-29-2009, 12:44 AM
Fortunately most people I meet (including dancers) have been honest people. Perhaps GR has been in the company of an above average percentage of dishonest people, and so he is more aware of dishonesty, or maybe his sensitivity to it is what drove him to become a cop in the first place and do something about it? He might however be a very good cop because of that passion, even if his zest for fair dealings and the matter comes across as accusatory in this forum.

did someone say he was a bad cop? /:O
you're a master of euphemisms xdamage. and that is a true compliment. its absolutely a valuable skill in life to make situations positive. what good is it to be negative.