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Elvia
10-10-2009, 12:00 AM
I see Gr is still incapable of addressing the specific points I've made. So I'll leave him to continue doing what he does best- speaking vaguely and patting himself on the back. The obvious question remains unanswered again.

Golden_Rule
10-10-2009, 12:15 AM
well this has a pretty obvious answer. is exploitation ever ethical?\

But it happens. Everywhere but in strip-clubs too.

Famous case out here that I believed ended in murder. Hardly unique though because I know of at least a half-dozen other cases like it in the last decade across the country.

Delilah's Den Dancer got a hold of a guy and milked him dry. Family lost their home. His wife divorced him. He went off the deep end and resorted to the gun. He killed his wife for the insurance before she could finalize the divorce.

Now he also had a ponzi scam going on his company but at his trial he stated it was to be with the dancer, who wanted nothing to do with him when the money ran out, that he killed his wife for the insurance money.

She had to know this fellow didn't have that kind of money [over $80K if I recall]. It was rather obvious he was a middle-class guy and how many of them have that kind of money to throw around.

This is an extreme example of what I am talking about, but it is an example just the same.

===========

Added: I figured I'd look it up and provide the info to back up the statement above.

Found out two things. My memory slipped a bit. This one is a bit over 11 years ago, not ten, and it was over $100K, no $80K, and it was a drowning not a gun.

Brief background from another website: In 1997, Craig Rabinowitz (age 34 at the time) was married and living in a wealthy suburban area of Philadelphia, PA. He was married to Stefanie, had a daughter, and owned a successful company producing latex products. Craig seemed like the model Sailer-type white male: An affluent white male living in a suburban area, married with children, and successful businessman. However, in the deceptive right-wing world of lies and greed, success can be very deceptive and when the truth is revealed, it all too often turns out to be a fatal sham.

While Craig Rabinowitz seemed to be happily married, he was secretly carrying out a romantic affair with a stripper in an upscale strip bar in Philadelphia, Delilah's Den. Her name was Shannon Reinhart, nicknamed Summer, and Craig would frequently visit her at the strip bar at least once a week. He tipped her heavily and bought lavish presents for her amounting to over $2000 a week. After nearly a year of this clandestine affair, Craig spent over $100,000 on her.

Another harsh reality set in as the latex company he owned was a scam that never produced anything. His company was a Ponzi style pyramid scam that left him in hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt after investors realized the scam and demanded their money back. Investigators determined Craig Rabinowitz was $671,000 in debt after his affair with the stripper and his Ponzi scam.

With nowhere to go, Craig had very few options remaining. It would be theft, murder, and/or suicide. Craig chose the route of murder by taking out a massive life insurance policy on his wife for nearly $2 million, then drugging her and drowning her in their home bathtub. Craig called 911 and initially reported it as an accidental death, but forensic science soon discovered it was a malicious murder.

Craig Rabinowitz is serving a life sentence in a Pennsylvania prison with no chance of parole.

Golden_Rule
10-10-2009, 12:20 AM
I see Gr is still incapable of addressing the specific points I've made. So I'll leave him to continue doing what he does best- speaking vaguely and patting himself on the back. The obvious question remains unanswered again.

Like I've said elsewhere, I'll let the readers decide.

I think that, if they read the thread with a fair and discerning eye, even if they don't agree with my conclusions they'll note I stated my case clearly, defined why I came to my conclusions, and tried to answer any an all questions placed to me as to why I thought it meritorious.

If you think I missed one of yours point me to it or write it out again directly, distinctly, and with only the intent to actually hear my response to it. Just like I read yours [even when you are being a tad snide about it].

wishing well...

xdamage
10-10-2009, 12:34 AM
When I worked street crimes and had lots of contact with urban youth you might be surprised how often I heard the excuse, "Why shouldn't I get mine from someone weaker than me. If they are foolish enough not to protect their shit why shouldn't I take it."


Sadly it may be that sociopathy is our human nature, and lack of social training to the contrary leaves people who essentially see the world so. In a sense you just described the golden rule of the sociopath (but also of some animal behavior, survival of the fittest).



Imagine the bartender who, by his/her extraordinary experience from dealing with drinking people all the time, can tell someone has imbibed beyond their limit willing to serve someone more booze because they promised to tip them particularly well if they did.

That's the comparative scenario. Now you get the picture?

In a sense both examples ring true.

The bartender example you use is valid but the bartenders also don't do it out of altruism, but fear of a lawsuit. It is also true it is for the better public good as a drunk might hurt others, but few bartenders would protect customers or the public good if it wasn't for fear of being sued themselves. What is keeping them responsible is fear of punishment.

OTOH even if a very over weight person comes into a restaurant daily, and over eats, chances are the proprietor won't stop them, no matter how much objective evidence there is that the person is gaining additional pounds. They might die, but we'd only be so upset that the person ate themselves to death.

I think again though the fundamental problem is that on some level we know that strip clubs play with fire; that they've moved beyond neutral entertainment into the realm of people's bodies and emotions, and we know that no matter how much we say "it is just business" that it is also not just business. That it is not quite the same as selling a neutral service or inanimate object, and that it is bothersome that people are really getting hurt. Either emotionally when a customer really falls for a dancer and really hurts inside for it; or when a dancer is emotionally really harmed by the overly physical aggressive or verbal aggressive behaviors of a customer.

I wouldn't want the government regulating them, and I'd prefer less regulation, but I do find SCs worrisome too as they crossed the line from simple entertainment into emotional matters that to leave me with some moral quandaries. That said, likewise my only response is to try to do unto the dancers as I would have them do unto me. Treat them fair and with human respect.

chris91
10-10-2009, 12:39 AM
Truly? I will point out it isn't necessary to my argument that be the case, but I will also point out that on these very pages are examples of same. So maybe you have not seen it, but it exists.

Sure. I'd love to see an example of a dancer blaming a customer for something she chose to do from these very pages.



No it isn't, and I will point out again that I am not comparing apples to the oranges above. I am comparing apples to apples.

Contrasting the appalling lack of human compassion that exists when a customer takes advantage of a dancer he obviously knows is at a disadvantage to get something from her that she wouldn't normally surrender to a dancer doing precisely the same thing with a customer who is obviously at a disadvantage.

Same-same.

What? Am I in the twilight zone? That quote was in response to you saying that we complain about customers treating us poorly while we do the same thing to them. We do not do the same thing to them. We don't grab dudes balls or take their money and refuse to dance for them. We don't go to their law offices and talk their ear off with no intention of hiring them ever.

We may sell dances to drunk guys, but that is not "ill treatment". It's sales.




Very cool. Than you are obviously NOT someone of the nature I am speaking about. I'd dare bet though that in your years of experience you've pumped into a few people, customers and dancers alike, who qualify. So you have to have a fairly good idea of what I am talking about.

I wish I did know what you are talking about. You seem to think that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, because not everyone follows your personal moral code. I disagree. What you think is the "right thing" to do, I think is a dick move.




NOT, NOT, NOT what I am talking about.

Imagine the bartender who, by his/her extraordinary experience from dealing with drinking people all the time, can tell someone has imbibed beyond their limit willing to serve someone more booze because they promised to tip them particularly well if they did.

That's the comparative scenario. Now you get the picture?

No, I do not. I do not see the difference between this and my waitress example. In both cases, someone is sticking their nose into a strangers business. It's rude, and you'd have to be a pretentious douche to be able to do it and not feel like a pretentious douche.

I was a bartender for a long time, and I was required by law to cut people off. I don't know if it's like this everywhere, but in New Orleans, if a drunk guy crashes his car, the bartender who served him can be held liable. I HATED this law. I could never justify making those decisions for strangers, because they were strangers. I was not qualified to decide how much alcohol my customers could handle, a waitress is not qualified to decide how much pie someone should eat, and you are not qualified to decide how far a dancer should go with her customers. It's none of your business.

Golden_Rule
10-10-2009, 12:53 AM
I wish I did know what you are talking about. You seem to think that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, because not everyone follows your personal moral code. I disagree. What you think is the "right thing" to do, I think is a dick move.

No, I do not. I do not see the difference between this and my waitress example. In both cases, someone is sticking their nose into a strangers business. It's rude, and you'd have to be a pretentious douche to be able to do it and not feel like a pretentious douche.

I was a bartender for a long time, and I was required by law to cut people off. I don't know if it's like this everywhere, but in New Orleans, if a drunk guy crashes his car, the bartender who served him can be held liable. I HATED this law. I could never justify making those decisions for strangers, because they were strangers. I was not qualified to decide how much alcohol my customers could handle, a waitress is not qualified to decide how much pie someone should eat, and you are not qualified to decide how far a dancer should go with her customers. It's none of your business.

Like I said to Elvia; two different wave lengths.

Again I will point out that this "pretentious douche's" philosophy will always prevent me from injuring you. Yours will always mean that there is at least a chance of you injuring me.

If nothing else let that difference sink in a little.

So, impasse reached and my indirectly having been called a douche in the process :) : I'll continue if either of you ladies [or anyone else] still wants to but may we agree there is little else of value to add and let the readers figure out which way they fall on the arguments presented?

Earl_the_Pearl
10-10-2009, 12:57 AM
Again I will point out that this "pretentious douche's" philosophy will always prevent me from injuring you.
Sadly that is not always the case; that is why there is so much ugliness at SC especially at closing time.

Elvia
10-10-2009, 01:02 AM
You haven't stated your case clearly. You never really answered the question of when (under what circumstances) a dancer should refuse to sell someone a dance. You don't even seem to want to give an example. I thought this could have maybe been an interesting conversation if you'd actually cared to explain what you were trying to say. Instead, you just seemed to prefer to ignore the requests for clarification and just jump ahead to putting others down and touting your own moral superiority (which I'm starting to think is all you really wanted to get out of this).

Golden_Rule
10-10-2009, 01:06 AM
Sadly it may be that sociopathy is our human nature, and lack of social training to the contrary leaves people who essentially see the world so. In a sense you just described the golden rule of the sociopath (but also of some animal behavior, survival of the fittest).

Law of the jungle... like I said.

I'm not saying this from a position of weakness. If that were the nature of the game I could protect mine and more. While 1:1000 means that leaves a lot of guys who can kick my butt there is a lot more that would have to look out for me instead. In the jungle that's pretty good odds. Then there is the fact that society both allows me to carry a sidearm just about anywhere I want to go and paid to train me how to use it effectively to boot.

Now does that mean I ought to get anything I want, from anyone I want, or does that mean I have a greater social obligation to be fair with folks because I'm in a position to take what I want.

Does greater than average strength, ability and opportunity make one more responsible to be fair to others, or less?




In a sense both examples ring true.

The bartender example you use is valid but the bartenders also don't do it out of altruism, but fear of a lawsuit. It is also true it is for the better public good as a drunk might hurt others, but few bartenders would protect customers or the public good if it wasn't for fear of being sued themselves. What is keeping them responsible is fear of punishment.

OTOH even if a very over weight person comes into a restaurant daily, and over eats, chances are the proprietor won't stop them, no matter how much objective evidence there is that the person is gaining additional pounds. They might die, but we'd only be so upset that the person ate themselves to death.

It is a matter of exigent circumstance. How close the danger is to the moment being judged as its fulcrum.

The waitress thinks the overweight customer might die from the actions she's involved in, but its some place off - down the road - in a future that is rather murky at best.

The bartender's situation is more immediate. Given what we know about drinking, depending how how much was imbibed, the potential bad things happening are much closer at hand. A person can literally drink themselves to death in one sitting, drinking faster than the body can note the effects and not passing out before too much has been taken in. Alcohol poising is the result. I've seen a few people die that way.

If the person is driving they might kill themselves and/or others in mere hours from the time of the decision the bartender made to feed this guy more booze.

The function of time in the equation changes it, if you see what I mean.

The dancer can be the waitress when nothing severe is taking place and its over time.

She can be the bartender when she's moved past that point and just has to know this guys gone way over the edge.

Its the latter I make reference to with my posts.

Golden_Rule
10-10-2009, 01:15 AM
You haven't stated your case clearly. You never really answered the question of when (under what circumstances) a dancer should refuse to sell someone a dance.

I'm not saying refuse a dance, though it might be the most practical way to avoid the problem with the problem customer I reference.

How about a couple of examples:

1) A guy truly got his drink on. He is wearing clothes [don't tell me dancers don't know how to assess where a customer fits on the money scale by sizing up his dress - there are threads on this site that state EXACTLY how to do that], and his demeanor, his talk about his wife/kids, bills, etc; everything indicates this is a middle-class guy. He's not using the money in his pocket anymore, he's blown through that, and this is his third or fourth trip to the ATM to pull out another $500.

Common sense tells you, based on everything you've witness and heard, that this guy is very likely in over his head.

Do you take that $500 too?

2) An older, obviously lonely, guy whose talked about his dead wife and how his kids never come to see him anymore and he's lost contact with everyone whose ever been important to him latches on to you because you are probably the only person in the last year whose treated him well and his moon eyed astonishment to this 20-something, attractive, woman paying attention to an old codger like himself tells you he's lost and doesn't understand its just an act. He's told you he is a pensioner and his beat up clothes and the fact that he doesn't spend his money in the place on anything but you tells you he's pretty damn close to the bone.

He comes in with an unusual amount of money. Not huge, a couple of grand, but bigger than you've seen him with before. He tells you he cashed out his last T-Bill and wants to spend it all on you.

Do you take the money?

Now don't say I haven't given you any examples as these are two from my direct conversations with dancers when I was bouncing in strip-clubs.

Earl_the_Pearl
10-10-2009, 01:31 AM
Do you take the money?


Of course they take the money; it is the way of the dancer. If she didn't take it another would.

Golden_Rule
10-10-2009, 01:34 AM
You don't even seem to want to give an example. I thought this could have maybe been an interesting conversation if you'd actually cared to explain what you were trying to say. Instead, you just seemed to prefer to ignore the requests for clarification and just jump ahead to putting others down and touting your own moral superiority (which I'm starting to think is all you really wanted to get out of this).


I have no problem giving examples. Why they would be necessary to further explain what I thought was so obvious is what I can't understand.

Realize that the root of what I am getting at is just doing this one very simple thing. Look at the situation you are in, what you are about to do to someone else, and ask yourself if the situation was reversed would you want that person to do it to you? If the answer is no, then don't.

I just don't understand how someone can even argue against that. Trust me, if you are confounded you are not alone.

As to putting people down... I have been speaking in generalities. I've claimed no ill will on the part of anyone here. I have not resorted to indirectly calling anyone a douche. Just where do you get off suggesting I've put anyone down?

As to any superiority: I'm stating a case for a philosophy, a way of dealing with others fairly. I'm not judging anyone. That's not my place. I wore blue whipcord, not black robes.

In the case of things like this that's for your higher power to figure out. I'll leave mine to judge me.

jasmine22
10-10-2009, 02:14 AM
If you're gonna bitch about the recession!

I am so sick of hearing customers coming into the club bitching about the fkn recession.... :banghead:

Here is a tip....


Don't go out if you can't afford it! That's like going out to eat but can't afford to buy dessert & tip the waitress. We work for tips also, you know.

We know everyone is hurting, so are we! I am also sick of hearing how we're recession proof & how "it looks busy in here tonight".... as if ppl are spending. NO! That doesn't mean ppl are spending. They're just sitting there, taking up space & wasting our time.

Thank u so much for posting this! Too many guys come in to spend all this $$ on overpriced drinks and not on us. its bullshit

Elvia
10-10-2009, 01:43 PM
I'm not saying refuse a dance, though it might be the most practical way to avoid the problem with the problem customer I reference.

How about a couple of examples:

1) A guy truly got his drink on. He is wearing clothes [don't tell me dancers don't know how to assess where a customer fits on the money scale by sizing up his dress - there are threads on this site that state EXACTLY how to do that], and his demeanor, his talk about his wife/kids, bills, etc; everything indicates this is a middle-class guy. He's not using the money in his pocket anymore, he's blown through that, and this is his third or fourth trip to the ATM to pull out another $500.


Ok, I'm going to respond to this in a civil manner, and I hope you can manage to do the same.

Have you ever read those threads? Because most of what I've read on that subject is about how deceiving clothes can be. About how guys who wear full suits are usually broke time wasters trying to look like rich guys, about how guys who wear flip flops can often be the best custies, etc. I don't like to work in the expensive "gentleman's clubs," so maybe my kind of club is different than what you are used to. Everyone, almost without exception, dresses casually at my club. Jeans and T shirts, all around (it's sports bar/rock club themed). And there are more than a few guys who dress like that that I knowfor a fact are extremely well off. We also get a lot of unionized blue collar guys, and those longshoremen definitely have money to burn, and the way they dress on and off the job certainly does not spell "money." Any girl at my club who refuses to sell dances to drunk guys who dress average is going to have a damn hard time finding a customer. Everyone complains about bills these days, the richest guys complain the loudest about bills and taxes in my experience. Maybe you shouldn't be making assumptions about what indicates a guy has money to burn in the club, even dancer's know those things can be misleading. Guys who talk like they have money often don't, guys who dress like they don't often do. I'm going to ignore the $500 from the ATM comment because there's no way I would know how much someone is taking out of the ATM unless I just walked right up to people and looked over their shoulder during their transaction.

And anyway, assuming I was just going to go ahead and make the assumption that this guy can't afford it...what would you have me do about that? No one is even coercing him to do anything in the situation you described. What would you have me do if he approached me and asked for dances? Tell him "I'm sorry sir, but I'm going to have to decline because I just don't think you can really afford it." What exactly do you imagine is going to happen? I think he would get pissed off and tell me to worry about my own business, and rightly so. He might even complain (as I would in his shoes), and I don't think management would think too highly of me going around telling customers what they can and can't afford. Then he would likely spend it anyway. I'm not the only naked girl.

I know if I went into Nordstroms, picked out a designer handbag and the checkout girl looked me up and down and said "You know...it looks to me like you can't really afford this," I'd be pissed. And it's not going to stop me from buying the bag if I've already decided that's what I want to do.

I know you're probably the type to just go ahead and say those things. But I also think Chris is right in that there is something to be said for having a sense of boundaries and knowing where your business ends and someone else's begins. It IS offensive to have others treat you like you're not capable of making your own decisions, and I definitely think it's extremely inappropriate among strangers.

chris91
10-10-2009, 06:38 PM
Elvia addressed the first example, so I'll take this one.


2) An older, obviously lonely, guy whose talked about his dead wife and how his kids never come to see him anymore and he's lost contact with everyone whose ever been important to him latches on to you because you are probably the only person in the last year whose treated him well and his moon eyed astonishment to this 20-something, attractive, woman paying attention to an old codger like himself tells you he's lost and doesn't understand its just an act. He's told you he is a pensioner and his beat up clothes and the fact that he doesn't spend his money in the place on anything but you tells you he's pretty damn close to the bone.

He comes in with an unusual amount of money. Not huge, a couple of grand, but bigger than you've seen him with before. He tells you he cashed out his last T-Bill and wants to spend it all on you.

Do you take the money? Assuming that I see no signs of senility or Alzheimers , then yes I take the money. He's found something to spend his money on that makes him happy, and it's me. It's not my place to tell him that he can't do that. I might say something like, "Are you sure?", but ultimately it's his decision.

That said, It's unlikely that I would ever personally be in this situation. I have very little patience for sad sacks.

chris91
10-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Again I will point out that this "pretentious douche's" philosophy will always prevent me from injuring you. Yours will always mean that there is at least a chance of you injuring me.

If nothing else let that difference sink in a little.


Are you kidding? I sell a dance to a drunk/stupid/poor guy and I have "injured" him? I suppose I'm also responsible for all the cancer that people got from the cigarettes I sold as a bartender. Hey, I worked at McDonalds for a while, so lets add a couple heart attacks to the list of "injuries" that I've caused. Oh, I'm so evil! Save me Golden Rule! Teach me how to be good! ::)

xdamage
10-10-2009, 08:38 PM
GR's more general point is, I believe, that our society (and every other I've visited) perceives that some forms of entertainment end up with some individuals significantly worse off. We call them Vices. They include recreational drug use, gambling, stripclubs & brothels, arguably even recreational eating, etc.

There are parallel debates going on in the areas of gambling, the fast food industry, tobacco industry, alcohol industry, etc, where the sellers reasonably don't want to be responsible (or feel guilty for the few who cannot control their spending or use), society as a whole which debates who should be responsible, and the majority want the freedom to engage in vices because they are responsible, etc.

The debate has done on for as long as I can recall and so far there have been no new revelations other then it may help some to require vice sellers to better disclose the risks. Hence we now require fast food restaurants disclose nutritional info; the tobacco industry to disclose the risks; the gambling industry to put up signs with addiction help info; and so on. Sellers would prefer not as it can decrease sales, but that is why the pressure to do so has to come from the outside.

The SC industry is too small to be on anyone's radar but if it was I suppose a day may come when they are required to post signs warning of the risks. /shrug

GR, the world might be a better place if all vice sellers could intuitively guess who is over spending, but I honestly don't see how it would work in practice, and if I was a vice seller I'd certainly make a choice early on to do it without guilt. There is just no practical way to live with oneself without making that choice.

The dram shop laws are a mess. But we also don't expect bar owners to limit customer consumption out of good will. They are not following the golden rule, but rather, do so out of fear of LARGE lawsuits. That works, but only barely ;) Still there are far too many drunk drivers.

Cyril
10-10-2009, 08:38 PM
Don't go out if you can't afford it! That's like going out to eat but can't afford to buy dessert & tip the waitress. We work for tips also, you know.



A person should stay away from the desert even if he/she can afford it for two reasons:

- They are high in fat
- You are eating after you are full (which is really bad for you)

chris91
10-10-2009, 10:01 PM
A person should stay away from the desert even if he/she can afford it for two reasons:

- They are high in fat
- You are eating after you are full (which is really bad for you)

Also, it's hot, there's no water to drink, and the dry air is bad for your sinuses. Oh, and don't forget about the rattlesnakes, coyotes, and scorpions.

Cyril
10-10-2009, 10:16 PM
Oh, and don't forget about the rattlesnakes, coyotes, and scorpions.

Those are desserts?

Elvia
10-10-2009, 10:25 PM
Also, it's hot, there's no water to drink, and the dry air is bad for your sinuses. Oh, and don't forget about the rattlesnakes, coyotes, and scorpions.


LOL! I almost missed that one.

(you said "desert" Cyril, not "dessert").

chris91
10-11-2009, 02:15 AM
Those are desserts?

You never had coyote pie?

Golden_Rule
10-11-2009, 02:23 AM
Elvia, Chris, you believe as you believe. I've heard you both out, considered all you have to say, and just don't agree. And Elvia, I've been NOTHING BUT CIVIL and for you to infer otherwise is just not fair of you.


GR, the world might be a better place if all vice sellers could intuitively guess who is over spending, but I honestly don't see how it would work in practice, and if I was a vice seller I'd certainly make a choice early on to do it without guilt. There is just no practical way to live with oneself without making that choice.

Well, so you know that I practice what I preach [pardon the pun] I will tell you that:

1) At the events where I manage the floor and security, which are exclusive - invitation only all the way around - we have rules that are communicated upfront to all guests, male and female alike. They get them every time they get the final instructions, location and other instructions for entry, even if they have come to every party we've thrown. They outline behavior toward one another and that everyone present is to be given the same courtesy they'd expect themselves.

I have an agreement with the owners that I have final say on the list and control of the door. While it has rarely come up, customers and dancers alike found to be doing things like taking advantage of intoxicated others are simply not invited back if I find out about it. Its kept our "special arena" a fairly nice place to hang out and have adult fun for all our guests, Ladies and Gentleman both. Specifically because one can relax a bit easier knowing, entertainer or other guest, we have your back.

2) I'm a fairly good amateur poker player. I don't claim professional status but I make a decent amount of money playing cards. [Yeah, I claim it on my taxes... I even keep a separate account for my "card money"]

I play a lot of cash games. Some friendly, some not so friendly. Either way I can generally tell when someone is playing with the rent money. I'll sheer a well coated woolly sheep of his fleece when I know he can afford it, but I've gotten up from tables where I knew people were playing with money the couldn't afford to lose.

There is a point were separating a well heeled character from some of their money, entertaining them along the way so they get something for their dime, crosses a line and becomes a grifter's game of skinning someone whose skin is all they have to protect them from the cold.

Where that line is can be something for debate but that it exists, to my way of thinking, is a given. I won't cross it even if it costs me money. That kind of killer instinct I just don't have but I sleep better that way.

So choice made. I dabble in vice but I don't cross the lines. I set my ethical standards at a level where I make the effort not to cause others damage and adhere to them [and when I am responsible for the safety of people attending a function make others adhere to them too]. It can work if everyone understands the rules and agrees to play by them.

Perry
10-11-2009, 06:07 AM
Yay! Another thread where GR tells the strippers to tell the customers how to spend their money!

Cyril
10-11-2009, 06:11 AM
LOL! I almost missed that one.

(you said "desert" Cyril, not "dessert").

Oh. I misspelled. Sorry for committing such a grave sin.

xdamage
10-11-2009, 06:54 AM
Where that line is can be something for debate but that it exists, to my way of thinking, is a given. I won't cross it even if it costs me money. That kind of killer instinct I just don't have but I sleep better that way.
... It can work if everyone understands the rules and agrees to play by them.

This is why they keep me away from sales. I'm the type who tends to tell the customer everything, the good and the bad about our products. It's how I wish to be treated. I'd much prefer if the products I buy came with full disclosure (e.g., repair rates, return rates, common problems exposed) so I could decide for myself what trade offs to make. Imagine if when you bought your automobile the sellers all willingly made available reports of repair rate problems, costs, projected future problems, etc. If they ALL did it then we'd still buy cars (or push harder for them to fix problems before selling them), but we'd look past the shiny paint and make more informed choice.

But of course it doesn't work that way. Even if I sleep a bit better for full disclosure, EtP is right that if one dancer doesn't sell them another will. If only one business fully discloses they'd likely be out of business, their reward for altering the rules, while their competitors continue to do business in whatever ways sells the most. OTOH if the pressure comes from without, forces all business to disclose then it can work; then it can create a fair and level playing field.

I guess the bottom line is I don't see how anyone could object to the golden rule, but all too quickly people disagree about who is doing unto others fairly. For example, as you probably have already heard, some have objected to your managing these events, for various reasons. From their PoV they wouldn't and you've chosen to do unto others in a way they see as harmful on some level. So while I could never disagree with the premise of the GR, the specifics can still be debated endlessly.

bem401
10-11-2009, 10:43 AM
You never really answered the question of when (under what circumstances) a dancer should refuse to sell someone a dance.

I think that line is drawn in different places for different people. In general, I would say you've reached it when you're at the point where you'd advise a male friend to snap back to reality if you saw him doing exactly what your customer is doing (albeit with a different girl). And again, I'm not talking about a one-shot deal where you get a guy to drop a bundle in a single episode. I'm talking about the "death by a thousand cuts" guys you actually get to know over time. Any newbie customer who visits a club with scads of cash deserves to go home broke. You'd have no way to gauge such a customer. However, I have to believe you can recognize a train-wreck in the making and in those cases the dancer ought to accept some responsibility for what happens.

dangerousdiva
10-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Of course they take the money; it is the way of the dancer. If she didn't take it another would.

QFT!!

I will not trick or blatantly lie to get guys to $pend on me or fill in the tip line if they are too inebriated to sign the CC slip, but the two scenarios GR described are some guy not knowing to handle himself and truly if I didn't get him another girl would.

I don't go to work to assess customers psyche or mental capacities. I don't listen to sob stories either unless I'm on the clock and then I would probably assume it's just some CS.

Sorry, customers enter of their own free will and at their own risk. It's not just the way of the dancer but the way of the business world.

As for treating customers how I would a male friend? No way! Fiends have established boundaries of loyalty and conduct that are totally different than a client/customer relationship. Which is why most (intelligent) people refrain from doing business with friends.

Watch your own back. This goes for customers and dancers.

bem401
10-11-2009, 11:12 AM
truly if I didn't get him another girl would.

Ah, the beauty of rationalization.

dangerousdiva
10-11-2009, 11:18 AM
I'm not rationalizing but describing an ethical boundary. I don't lie or steal to make my money but I will seize an opportunity that presents itself. As would most dancers that go to work to make money and not babysit drunk idiots for free.

yoda57us
10-11-2009, 11:20 AM
Ah, the beauty of rationalization.


In a strip club it's called reality. For a dancer it's called making a living.

If a guy walks in the door of a strip club he is a target. If he can't handle it he needs to stay home...

bem401
10-11-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm not rationalizing but describing an ethical boundary. I don't lie or steal to make my money but I will seize an opportunity that presents itself. As would most dancers that go to work to make money and not babysit drunk idiots for free.

You are rationalizing your opportunism. You're saying " this guy will blow his money on someone, so it might as well be me". I'm not saying its right or wrong, but it is a rationalization.

bem401
10-11-2009, 11:43 AM
In a strip club it's called reality. For a dancer it's called making a living.

If a guy walks in the door of a strip club he is a target. If he can't handle it he needs to stay home...

Are you telling me I'm wrong?

I don't disagree with any of your 4 points:

1. It is the reality of SC's.
2. It is how most dancers make their living.
3. Guys are targets when they enter a club.
4. Guys who can't handle it ought to stay home.

Still doesn't mean the behavior isn't being rationalized.

dangerousdiva
10-11-2009, 12:03 PM
Rationalizing makes is sound like I'm doing something that I feel is wrong and feel the need to justify it in order to do it. There is nothing wrong with seizing an opportunity like GR described.

I would do the same thing regardless if there was any other dancers there or not. I was trying to point out that any dancer with a hustle would do it too. It's called doing a good job. No different than trying to get to a high roller first.

Call it whatever you want, really.

I think you are mistaking the services dancers provide. Entertainment and fantasy. Not psychological or social services.

Then again you think that dancers should have the same rules of ethics that we would for our male friends ::)

Elvia
10-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Well, so you know that I practice what I preach [pardon the pun] I will tell you that


No long winded explanation required. Given the fact that you so frequently give unsolicited lectures around here, in spite of the fact that it is made apparent to you again and again that it's not welcome nor considered appropriate, I can certainly believe that you go about your daily life subjecting others to the same thing. I don't think it's really altruism, though. rather, I'd say it's just plain old arrogance masquerading as altruism. You just need to feel that you know better than everyone else, and if that means doing something as inappropriate as butting into other people's business and rescuing them from their own decisions, so be it. This became clear when I asked you to clarify yourself in a number of ways, and instead of even trying to do so, you just lept to putting others down and congratulating yourself. And no, I do not consider that a civil thing to do when others are trying to have an actual conversation with you. But then again, that seems to be your main motivation in life, so I can't say I'm surprised or that I even blame you.

bem401
10-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Rationalizing makes is sound like I'm doing something that I feel is wrong and feel the need to justify it in order to do it. There is nothing wrong with seizing an opportunity like GR described.

I would do the same thing regardless if there was any other dancers there or not. I was trying to point out that any dancer with a hustle would do it too. It's called doing a good job.

Call it whatever you want, really.

I didn't say you needed to justify anything to anyone but it was an example of rationalization, nonetheless. And I never said rationalization was always a bad thing. Hey I rationalized doing a few things today that I might not otherwise have done .



I think you are mistaking the services dancers provide. Entertainment and fantasy. Not psychological or social services.

Then again you think that dancers should have the same rules of ethics that we would for our male friends ::)


I'm not mistaking the services a dancer provides at all. The discussion went to the point at which a dancer might feel it was wrong to continue selling dances. I offered my opinion and it was not what your last sentence implies at all.

If your customer's behavior with you is the type that you would cause you to advise a RL friend against engaging in with another dancer, then I think you might want to take a second look at what's going on.

Elvia
10-11-2009, 12:47 PM
I'll tell you guys a story about a strange fella who used to come into my club. we'll call him "Ted."

Ted looked like a pretty normal guy. He'd come in during the day shift, clean cut, wearing chinos and a button down. He'd order a drink, sit at the stage for the first few sets. He was articulate, easy to understand, never said anything weird. He'd eventually ask a girl to take him to the private dance area. He chose me a few times.

So I'd go back there with Ted, and he would hand me a hundred and ask me too keep dancing as far as that would pay for. These are no contact dances, BTW, total air dances. He wouldn't really even watch the dance, he'd be looking around the club, fiddling with his watch, sipping his drink. And after about a song or two of that, he would settle back into his chair, close his eyes, and fall asleep!

It took me by surprise the first time, so I nudged him to see if he was ok. He opened his eyes sleepily and asked if the dances were done. I told him no, he still had 3 songs left. He told me to keep dancing, put his head down and went to sleep. I kept dancing. sometimes he'd stir and look around for a moment before going back to sleep. When the dances were over I shook him awake and told him. He pulled out another hundred and asked me to keep going. So I did. We did this three times total. The last time I woke him up, he thanked me, rubbed his eyes, and left.

Ted made a regular habit of doing this. Sometimes with me, sometimes with other girls. Sure it was weird, but he always came in acting perfectly normal and sane and sober. He did not get insanely drunk. And everytime, he would sleep through most of the dances.

He seemed to be getting what he wanted.

So, what do you guys think? Was Ted being taken advantage of? Should Ted have been cut off from his erotic nap time?

Elvia
10-11-2009, 01:00 PM
Oh. I misspelled. Sorry for committing such a grave sin.

I would like to once again invite you to lighten up. Maybe you could have enjoyed the joke like the rest of us then.

bem401
10-11-2009, 01:04 PM
Doesn't seem to me he was being taken advantage of unless it was an everyday thing and maybe not even then. Its definitely weird though.

dangerousdiva
10-11-2009, 01:05 PM
I didn't say you needed to justify anything to anyone but it was an example of rationalization, nonetheless. And I never said rationalization was always a bad thing. Hey I rationalized doing a few things today that I might not otherwise have done .

This is a silly argument. Again call it what you want but I would do it regardless of other circumstances. It's called hustling. SOP.

rationalization - To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for one's behavior.

Pray tell what are my correct reasons for seizing the opportunity?



If your customer's behavior with you is the type that you would cause you to advise a RL friend against engaging in with another dancer, then I think you might want to take a second look at what's going on.

This is exactly applying the rules of conduct between friends to the rules of conduct between dancer and customer. It has nothing to do with whether I'm the one providing the service or another dancer.

I would advise my friends to not get shit faced at the club and to leave CC and ATM's cards at home. Bring only the cash they can spend.

So if I find a customer shit faced with a CC or ATM card I should pat him on the head and send him home? LOL

Elvia
10-11-2009, 01:10 PM
^^^ That's a good point.

It's one thing if my friend standing next to me at the nordstroms counter asks if I really can afford to buy the expensive purse. It's another if the shopgirl does.

Dirty Ernie
10-11-2009, 01:19 PM
I play a lot of cash games. Some friendly, some not so friendly. Either way I can generally tell when someone is playing with the rent money. I'll sheer a well coated woolly sheep of his fleece when I know he can afford it, but I've gotten up from tables where I knew people were playing with money the couldn't afford to lose.

But is leaving the table enough? All you've done is ease your conscience, but the sheep is still shorn. Should you inform the table you've decided player x can't afford the stakes? If the game goes on, would you play with these unethical men in the future?

Do you spend time on poker message boards trying to convince other players, they too, should refuse to play in a game in which someone, somehow determines one player appears not to be able to afford the potential losses?

If not, fix your skirt, I think your condescension may be showing.

bem401
10-11-2009, 01:29 PM
It's called hustling.

Since you want to break out the defintions....

Whether that is good or bad depends on which definitions apply and which do not.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hustle




This is exactly applying the rules of conduct between friends to the rules of conduct between dancer and customer. It has nothing to do with whether I'm the one providing the service or another dancer.

Let's try this again. If the dancer in question wasn't you ( let's say its some girl you don't know) and the customer in question was someone you cared about IRL, would you be inclined to tell your friend to think twice about what he was doing if what he was doing was the same as what your customer was doing?

It has nothing to do with how you would or wouldn't treat your friends, but with how you would like to see your friends allow themselves to be treated.

bem401
10-11-2009, 01:40 PM
^^^ That's a good point.

It's one thing if my friend standing next to me at the nordstroms counter asks if I really can afford to buy the expensive purse. It's another if the shopgirl does.

Not a good analogy. Even if you buy a purse you really can't afford, you still own the purse when you come to that realization.

Rent-A-Center is a better one, where you can get a kick-ass big screen HDTV with no credit check for $X per week. Once you can't handle the $X per week, the TV is as gone as the dancer will be when the customer goes bust.

dangerousdiva
10-11-2009, 02:23 PM
Since you want to break out the defintions....

Whether that is good or bad depends on which definitions apply and which do not.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hustle



I fail to see the relevance.

So there's no confusion, which definition of rationalization were you applying, 1 or 2?

rationalization -

1. to apply logic or reason

2. devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for one's behavior


It has nothing to do with how you would or wouldn't treat your friends, but with how you would like to see your friends allow themselves to be treated.

You are asking me to tailor how I run a business to how I would like to see my friends allow themselves to be treated?

Again I do not apply the ethics of friendship to how I conduct business. Apples and Oranges.

Do you think ALL businesses should be ran according to how one would like to see our friends allow themselves to be treated?

Sounds like you believe in Utopia.

yoda57us
10-11-2009, 03:05 PM
Are you telling me I'm wrong?

Still doesn't mean the behavior isn't being rationalized.

Bem, except for your heart beating every single thing you do in life is rationalized behavior. You said something without saying anything in an attempt to be clever and judgmental.

bem401
10-11-2009, 03:16 PM
I fail to see the relevance.

So there's no confusion, which definition of rationalization were you applying, 1 or 2?

rationalization -

1. to apply logic or reason

2. devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for one's behavior

They both apply. It is the logical, reasonable, and expected thing for you to do given where you're at and at the same time it is self-satisfying to say it might as well be you to benefit since someone has to. It allows you not to question the ethics of what you're doing. It would be akin to a guy feeling it wasn't all that bad to be an asshole when in the club because you girls have to deal with assholes anyway. Saying everybody else does it is rationalizing it and it doesn't make it the right thing to do nor does it necessarily make it the wrong thing to do..



You are asking me to tailor how I run a business to how I would like to see my friends allow themselves to be treated?

Again I do not apply the rules of ethics for friendship to the rules of ethics of how I conduct business. Apples and Oranges.

Gee, I thought ethics were ethics. Your comment implies that you know you are being less ethical in one instance than in the other.

Are you saying its OK for you to treat people differently than you would have others treat your friends?

So actually, yes, I think you should treat people the way you would have your friends or self treated. I also realize not enough of this goes on. Am I so naive as to believe this will become commonplace? No.




Do you think ALL businesses should be ran according to how one would like to see our friends allow themselves to be treated?

I don't know if you don't understand my point or are intentionally skirting the issue, so I'll ask it a different way.

Take yourself out of the equation. If you suspected a male friend, brother, or other relative was getting himself in over his head at some SC you had nothing to do with, would you consider giving him a reality check?

What if he was doing the same at a casino? Or drinking? Or doing drugs? Or any other potentially self-destructive behavior?


Sounds like you believe in Utopia.

Hardly, but I do believe in treating people the way I'd like to be treated.

bem401
10-11-2009, 03:38 PM
Bem, except for your heart beating every single thing you do in life is rationalized behavior.

So you agreed with me then that this was rationalized behavior. I wasn't sure. For a minute there, I thought you were making excuses for those who do that sort of thing.

Elvia
10-11-2009, 03:55 PM
Not a good analogy. Even if you buy a purse you really can't afford, you still own the purse when you come to that realization.

Rent-A-Center is a better one, where you can get a kick-ass big screen HDTV with no credit check for $X per week. Once you can't handle the $X per week, the TV is as gone as the dancer will be when the customer goes bust.

I'm not sure how this is relevant. The point is, is it appropriate to openly question our customers as to whether they can afford to part with the money they've decided to part with? I believe the answer is no. When you buy dances, you know that you're buying just that. It's a fleeting experience. You know you don't get to take the dancer home with you and enjoy dances whenever you want, so it's not like it's misleading.

The point is, it's not ok to question a customer in the same way you can question someone you've established a friendship with.

dangerousdiva
10-11-2009, 04:35 PM
Gee, I thought ethics were ethics.

Gee, I thought I was logically relaying a commonly accepted code of behavior taught in most Universities. Business ethics, medical ethics, legal ethics, moral ethics, friendship ethics and so on and so forth. Yep, many different types of ethics, applied to the many different capacities people relate to each other.


Your comment implies that you know you are being less ethical in one instance than in the other.

Where is it implied that I know I am being less ethical in one instance than another? I'm pretty sure I commented that I apply friendship ethics to friendships and business ethics to business.

I think it's sweet that you think the world should run businesses like we do our friendships though :-*




Are you saying its OK for you to treat people differently than you would have others treat your friends?

I think people do business with customers different than they do with their friends.



I don't know if you don't understand my point or are intentionally skirting the issue, so I'll ask it a different way.

Take yourself out of the equation. If you suspected a male friend, brother, or other relative was getting himself in over his head at some SC you had nothing to do with, would you consider giving him a reality check?


I thought I made my answer obvious here:




I would advise my friends to not get shit faced at the club and to leave CC and ATM's cards at home. Bring only the cash they can spend.

So if I find a customer shit faced with a CC or ATM card I should pat him on the head and send him home? LOL

Scenario 1:

If a friend did not follow my council and got shit faced and dropped a ton of money they couldn't afford on a dancer? I would tell them they did not handle themselves well and that they had no one to blame but themselves. I do not think the dancer was being unethical but doing her job.

Then again I don't think I have any friends that try to blame others for their own lapse of judgment.

Scenario 2:

If my friend got shit faced and offered me their car/ to pay my college tuition/ pay off my debt or just a shit load of money, I would not take it and I would send them home.

My behavior in both scenarios is logical and ethical to me. I do not feel I am being less ethical in one circumstance than I am in the other.