View Full Version : Don't go to strip clubs....
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princessjas
10-14-2009, 08:02 AM
My point was, if you knew they were, would it matter or make a difference?
To most dancers, yes that would make a difference I think. Personally, I would try to tell the person to stay out of the club for a bit. There are 2 reasons for this: I don't intentionally hurt people if it can be avoided, and even if I desperately needed the income, I would feel this could turn him into an angry, potentially violent person and that anger would be directed at ME, because yanno, he couldn't be a responsible human being and control himself in the face of my stunning beauty. ::)
You (& GR) can choose to believe this or not, but it really is the truth.
bem401
10-14-2009, 08:07 AM
To most dancers, yes that would make a difference I think. Personally, I would try to tell the person to stay out of the club for a bit. There are 2 reasons for this: I don't intentionally hurt people if it can be avoided, and even if I desperately needed the income, I would feel this could turn him into an angry, potentially violent person and that anger would be directed at ME, because yanno, he couldn't be a responsible human being and control himself in the face of my stunning beauty. ::)
You (& GR) can choose to believe this or not, but it really is the truth.
Your answer makes perfect sense to me and I have no reason to doubt it. It is pretty much the answer I would like to think most dancers would give, but up till now, none of the others have.
laurcon
10-14-2009, 08:26 AM
i'm pretty sure we all would do this. i think the point is that we generally don't have such information. and there was no "altered state" in your example. idk, someone will say it better hopefully...
yoda57us
10-14-2009, 08:40 AM
So Tony's the dancer, his friend the clueless PL. But we all remember that Tony did try to get him to consider the ramifications of what he was doing. And if I remember correctly, it was Christopher who extended him most of the credit.
While your knowledge of Sopranos trivia is admirable BEM you keep conveniently forgetting the last part of the story. In the end, the idiot sporting goods store owner lost his business to the mob not because they came in and tried to take it from him but because he couldn't control himself.
Whether Tony felt badly about it is just as irrelevant as whether a dancer thinks about who she is selling dances to or not. In the end he did his job as dancers do theirs. Not because he was greedy or uncaring but because it is how he feeds his family. Dancers don't show up at work every day to make some extra spending cash for a shopping trip to Bebe or a vacation in Hawaii. Dancers go to work for the same reason you or I do. To put food on the table, to pay the bills, to raise their kids, pay their mortgage, pay their college tuition etc.
Do you honestly think that anyone in the sales business loses any sleep over whether or not the customer they are working can afford what it is they are trying to sell him? Think again BEM. I just bought a new car. I can tell you that no matter how bad your credit rating is, if you have a job, the car dealership will find you financing somewhere, somehow. They are not the least bit concerned about whether you can actually afford the monthly payments or not. Once they sell you the car they get their money, the salesman gets his commission and everyone at the dealership is happy. If you don't make the payments and the car gets repossessed in a few months it is of absolutely zero concern to them. The bottom line is that it is not the car salesman's job to determine if I can afford a new car or not. His only job is to sell it to me.
xdamage
10-14-2009, 08:44 AM
There are 2 reasons for this: I don't intentionally hurt people if it can be avoided, and even if I desperately needed the income, I would feel this could turn him into an angry, potentially violent person and that anger would be directed at ME, because yanno, he couldn't be a responsible human being and control himself in the face of my stunning beauty.
Oh for sure, all self-ego-stroking (telling ourselves we are altruists) aside, none of us knows precisely how far the people we are dealing with will go. Fear of repercussion when we treat each other in ways we wouldn't want to be treated is a big factor in what causes us humans to limit our behaviors (though seemingly some criminals don't connect the cause and effect dots).
Particularly if a person feels like they've had everything taken from them, or that they have been emotionally toyed with, there is an increased probability they will respond aggressively. Unfortunately many people have to learn the hard way that the people they are dealing with, even the seemingly safe ones, sometimes are capable of dramatically aggressive behavior.
xdamage
10-14-2009, 08:58 AM
Do you honestly think that anyone in the sales business loses any sleep over whether or not the customer they are working can afford what it is they are trying to sell him? Think again BEM. I just bought a new car. I can tell you that no matter how bad your credit rating is, if you have a job, the car dealership will find you financing somewhere, somehow. They are not the least bit concerned about whether you can actually afford the monthly payments or not. Once they sell you the car they get their money, the salesman gets his commission and everyone at the dealership is happy. If you don't make the payments and the car gets repossessed in a few months it is of absolutely zero concern to them. The bottom line is that it is not the car salesman's job to determine if I can afford a new car or not. His only job is to sell it to me.
Correct. They absolutely do not. If you walk into their place of business it is their job to sell, even if you cannot afford it, that is the job of the person loaning the money to worry about.
Actually it is common enough to hear about people who are shopping addicts, and rack up debt until they are bankrupt. They don't stop until nobody will extend them credit. We sense that there is some intuitive difference between going into debt paying for a vice vs all the other stuff, but it is actually often a shady gray line because people who get themselves into massive debt spend much of it on goods they could have lived without.
I think the real problem in this thread is there is an implication that strippers are uniquely conning men, and I think if we really believe customers are essentially deluded then society should push for greater disclosure just like they've pushed the gambling industry, tobacco industry, alcohol industry, about the risks if addiction to these vices. If we really believe that strip clubs attract customers who are emotionally unwell and that it is our business as a society to protect them from their own addictions, then yep, we should push for laws to protect them.
But it simply cannot work to expect dancers to sit here and feel guilty for the extreme acts of a few individuals in their profession or for the extreme customers, just like I'm not going to feel guiltiy that somewhere out there is a hacker that stole people's credit cards who is in the computer business. I don't approve of it, but I also am not guilty of that kind of behavior myself. And there are laws in place that clearly identify right from wrong.
So back to the question Elvia asked, how would you write a law(s)? that would better protect the deluded from over spending? Without requiring intuitive feelings... what objective specification would work?
yoda57us
10-14-2009, 09:11 AM
So back to the question Elvia asked, how would you write a law(s)? that would better protect the deluded from over spending? Without requiring intuitive feelings... what objective specification would work?
These are laws that will never be written. Maybe GR will get his wish and their will be a lawsuit or two someday but I'm betting that the finding in a such a case would be found in favor of the dancer, not the plaintiff.
There are laws that can exist to protect people from themselves. Seat belt laws, cell phone and texting laws are all fine. As soon as smoking cigarettes is made illegal I will start to be leave that lap dance legislation could happen. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.
bem401
10-14-2009, 09:36 AM
While your knowledge of Sopranos trivia is admirable BEM you keep conveniently forgetting the last part of the story. In the end, the idiot sporting goods store owner lost his business to the mob not because they came in and tried to take it from him but because he couldn't control himself.
Whether Tony felt badly about it is just as irrelevant as whether a dancer thinks about who she is selling dances to or not. In the end he did his job as dancers do theirs. Not because he was greedy or uncaring but because it is how he feeds his family. Dancers don't show up at work every day to make some extra spending cash for a shopping trip to Bebe or a vacation in Hawaii. Dancers go to work for the same reason you or I do. To put food on the table, to pay the bills, to raise their kids, pay their mortgage, pay their college tuition etc.
Do you honestly think that anyone in the sales business loses any sleep over whether or not the customer they are working can afford what it is they are trying to sell him? Think again BEM. I just bought a new car. I can tell you that no matter how bad your credit rating is, if you have a job, the car dealership will find you financing somewhere, somehow. They are not the least bit concerned about whether you can actually afford the monthly payments or not. Once they sell you the car they get their money, the salesman gets his commission and everyone at the dealership is happy. If you don't make the payments and the car gets repossessed in a few months it is of absolutely zero concern to them. The bottom line is that it is not the car salesman's job to determine if I can afford a new car or not. His only job is to sell it to me.
I'm not "conveniently forgetting" the ending or anything else. I think you are. The ending was the guy's life was ruined because of his association with Tony and Tony just moved on to profit from the next guy who couldn't control his urges. Like it or not, Tony is still the bad guy in this scenario, which is not to say the gambler shouldn't have done a better job managing himself. Tony profited from the guy's stupidity.
Using other examples where people can get taken advantage of doesn't mean taking advantage of people isn't wrong. I'm well aware there are plenty of other instances where this happens. To the extent that any of the sales people knew what they were doing was going to eventually derail and damage the buyer, they are wrong to do it. And when we talk about car dealers, we are talking about someone you spend an hour or two with over the course of a few weeks while you make your decision so there is much less of a personal connection than with a dancer you visit weekly ( or at least on a regular basis ).
Your car dealer example is also why they get such a bad rap. You can't trust a one of them.
yoda57us
10-14-2009, 10:05 AM
I'm not "conveniently forgetting" the ending or anything else. I think you are. The ending was the guy's life was ruined because of his association with Tony and Tony just moved on to profit from the next guy who couldn't control his urges. Like it or not, Tony is still the bad guy in this scenario, which is not to say the gambler shouldn't have done a better job managing himself. Tony profited from the guy's stupidity.
I'm not forgetting anything BEM. The point of all of this BS is not whether or not Tony profited, it is the matter of who is responsible for him profiting. If the guy doesn't gamble then Tony is simply a guy that he went to high school with...
Using other examples where people can get taken advantage of doesn't mean taking advantage of people isn't wrong.
The simple problem here is that you and I don't agree on exactly what "taking advantage of someone" is. It's also clear that we never will...
Your car dealer example is also why they get such a bad rap. You can't trust a one of them.
They are not there for you to trust BEM, they are there to sell you a car. It's all about being an educated consumer and a realistic thinker. I don't take more money into a strip club then I can afford to spend and I don't go car shopping when I can't afford to buy one. I am responsible for my own actions and I don't go around looking to blame others for my stupidity or lack of self control.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 10:55 AM
luckily their is no monopoly on either strip clubs or yoga, any consenting adult can do it, so we're safe!! :grouphug:
Women have all of the pussy and they know it.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 11:03 AM
lmao, sorry i forgot about having multiple cards and using your lame limit to the max. i'm used to guys either having the cash already somehow, which surprises me when it get ridiculous sometimes, or putting it all on the amex. although not as much corporate cards as we used to see :'(
Remember we were talking about ATM limits not credit limit; my two credit cards have a combined limit of $20,000 and my debit cards have enough funds to make a stage full of dancer's panties wet.
Of course I don't need them as a drink and $20 is all that is needed to get the job done.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 11:09 AM
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
man. i'm sorry to be like GR and post 3 responses in a row instead of multi-quoting but... come on, really?! its like, why do GR and cyril think that there are these "mystery readers" out there reading these threads and agreeing with them but too scared to post as such? :confused:
There is a silent majority of PLs that are intimidated by the sharp pens of the pinks. Even GR has taken a knee to get an eight second breather.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 11:24 AM
So Tony's the dancer, his friend the clueless PL. But we all remember that Tony did try to get him to consider the ramifications of what he was doing. And if I remember correctly, it was Christopher who extended him most of the credit.
But Tony would not have warned him if they were not good friends. Dancers and PLs are not even casual friends.
OT: I went by the Ramsey Outdoor in Roxbury the other day and it was empty and closed; I thought of the Soprano's episode. They just moved to another mall though.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 11:30 AM
I would feel this could turn him into an angry, potentially violent person and that anger would be directed at ME,...
You (& GR) can choose to believe this or not, but it really is the truth.
I believe it because you would do it for your own safety not because of any concern for a PL; smart dancer.
firemaiden04
10-14-2009, 11:37 AM
The only time I've ever lectured a customer about spending too much was when a guy I knew came in and was trying to tip me the money left in his wallet for just listening to him talk about how he'd recently broken up with a mutual friend. Other than that, I honestly don't give a flying fuck. If they don't spend the money on me, you better believe they're going to spend it on another girl. Plus, it seems that a lot of guys just use the excuse, "Oh, I've got XYZ to save my money for, I can't spend it." Then half an hour later I see them throwing more money than that at another girl. So, why not just take the money? Guys lie just as much as strippers, if not more. It's very likely it's just an excuse for him.
princessjas
10-14-2009, 11:41 AM
I believe it because you would do it for your own safety not because of any concern for a PL; smart dancer.
No, I would do it for both reasons I listed. Concern for another human and concern for my safety.
I do not like to cause harm to anyone. Probably for selfish reasons, such as it makes ME feel awful and I experience a lot of stress and anxiety when I have hurt someone, but it makes it no less true that I dislike harming others.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 11:41 AM
As soon as smoking cigarettes is made illegal I will start to be leave that lap dance legislation could happen. Until then, I'm not holding my breath.
In Newark lap dancing is illegal because it is wrong.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 11:45 AM
I do not like to cause harm to anyone. Probably for selfish reasons, such as it makes ME feel awful and I experience a lot of stress and anxiety when I have hurt someone, but it makes it no less true that I dislike harming others.
I am not telling you this to make you feel awful but you are hurting me and causing me harm by not PMing me and setting up a lunch date. ::)
princessjas
10-14-2009, 11:53 AM
I am not telling you this to make you feel awful but you are hurting me and causing me harm by not PMing me and setting up a lunch date. ::)
Strangely, I find I'm okay with that.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 12:07 PM
Strangely, I find I'm okay with that.
I assume you are OK with my hurting and not with PMing me. :'(
yoda57us
10-14-2009, 02:51 PM
Yoda, every time potentially bad behavior on the part of dancers comes up, you make excuses for them by saying the guy should have known better (and most guys do). I argue that the fact the guy should have known better (but didn't) is not an excuse for someone else's opportunistic behavior. I'm reminded of the line in Animal House where Flounder's car is totaled and Boone turns to him and says "you fucked up, you trusted us!!".
The difference BEM is that what you define as "bad behavior" I define as making a living. I'm not "making excuses" because I don't see the behavior as something that needs an explanation or defense to you or any other customer.
I really can't figure out what Animal House has to do with any of this...
Bad behavior is lying, cheating or stealing. Selling dances is called making a living.
My point is that bleeding a delusional guy dry over time is not admirable behavior any more than the behavior of a pool or golf shark is. I know dancers who've done it and dancers who avoid doing it and I think more highly of those who don't.
"Admirable" is a nice word BEM but it really means nothing here. Strip clubs are not bible schools BEM. Strip clubs are a place where men go to indulge in their most base and instinctive behavior (accept for you of course). The women who work their make money by exploiting that behavior. You keep trying to apply some sort of vague moralistic code to tits and ass. Good luck with that.
I'm sure the ladies that you hold in high regard appreciate your faith in their moral character BEM but, honestly, you have absolutely no idea what they do for money other than what they tell you.
peachplumpear
10-14-2009, 03:03 PM
But how else can I import to you the fact that the dollar I give you is really equivalent to a twenty of just a few years ago and I'm expecting you to provide stripper attention like it is a $20. Cuz it was...once; before I lost my retirement, then my job and now I'm upside down in my house. Don't I deserve a dance for my dollar (really $20)? Can I at least get a hug and a kleenex? :(
I'll keep kleenex right between my boobies 4 u :)
xdamage
10-14-2009, 04:01 PM
The ending was the guy's life was ruined because of his association with Tony and Tony just moved on to profit from the next guy who couldn't control his urges. Like it or not, Tony is still the bad guy in this scenario, which is not to say the gambler shouldn't have done a better job managing himself. Tony profited from the guy's stupidity.
Well the fictional character Tony of course intends to use his victims and give them no means to escape, because if they tried to disentangle themselves, he'd continue to escalate the game until ultimately he would use violence to force them to cooperate.
Dancers are not going to come to a PLs house and threaten him with his life if he doesn't cooperate until he is broke. He just needs to stop coming and his business with her will be concluded.
Here is the thing. Imagine this... suppose some dancer was bragging about taking a deluded gentleman for a ride, laughing behind his back, really believed he was deluded and was giving her several thousand a week, he apparently thinking it was to help her, she thinking sucker. Okay, well sucks! But such is life.
It would only really be interesting though if say, we heard that her wealthy father passed away, and at the will she learned that she would be getting nothing because he was broke, having been giving his money to a dancer himself for nearly a year, having willed away any remaining property to his true love.
Now that would be an interesting story, especially if she was pissed as hell and couldn't make the connection between her own behavior and the other dancers.
That would be the kind of story that would be interesting not so much because of the irony, but because it would point out why sociopaths (like the fictional character Tony Soprano plays) cannot be reasoned with.
A normal person would be upset, but also realize that the other dancer acted fairly, and wouldn't like the lesson, but would cope and maybe even learn something that alters their future behavior. The sociopath would not be able to connect the dots... to see that her own behavior was similar and the inconsistency of thinking.
But before the story sounds so wonderfully illustrative... there is also a story about a man, and a dancer, someone's daughter, who he had a great time with, even pushed her to do more then what is legal... only to learn that his own daughter is a dancer in a notoriously dirty club. Also ironic, and sad that some customers would not be able to connect those dots, or consider it from that PoV until after the situation had turned on them.
While I'm not religious, I do agree the advice about us removing the beam from our own eyes before pointing out the spec of dust in anothers is damn good avice!
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chris91
10-14-2009, 05:33 PM
But Tony would not have warned him if they were not good friends. Dancers and PLs are not even casual friends.
Thank you! This whole Tony Soprano example is irrelevant because they were friends. I tell my best friend all the time that she shouldn't be spending 60 bucks on yet another pair of shoes, but I would never ever be so rude as to say that to a stranger.
I say that even if I do somehow find out that a guy is mortgaging his house to take me to vip, so what? Maybe he's decided that he wants lapdances more than he wants a house. Who am I to tell him that he can't spend his money however he wants? It's his damn money.
vmurphy252
10-14-2009, 06:07 PM
Laissez faire and caveat emptor...
pogocat
10-14-2009, 06:32 PM
1) Sometimes when I read the post that the guys post I realize why the regulars are hanging out at the club so much :O
2) When these guys start complaining I remind them that the $5 beer they're drinking would go much better with warm boobs pressed up against them.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 09:04 PM
Dancers are not going to come to a PLs house and threaten him with his life if he doesn't cooperate until he is broke. He just needs to stop coming and his business with her will be concluded.
They will use the sadistic goons that are keep on site to extract the money for 10 dances that only the dancer has kept track of; that is not a problem in my area. I have learned to survive in a SC environment; I must endure the occasional insult and harassment as I do here but I don't take it personal as it is only business and at the end of the night no love is lost or gained.
Well I do find myself attracted to cretin dancers but I must remain strong and limit my PL love money. I do find I pay more than others for the same service on occasion but I can’t help but think of them as women.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-14-2009, 09:10 PM
1)
2) When these guys start complaining I remind them that the $5 beer they're drinking would go much better with warm boobs pressed up against them.
Boobs are nice but it is the very essence of a women that does it. Not all women secret that essence; the successful dancers do.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 02:04 AM
"
It was not the Eskimo but the PL who killed the PL.
Maybe that is why I don't get it. This wolf would ask himself what is wrong with this picture, and figure out its not normal so something must be up and avoid the knife.
My "hunger" never gets so bad that it out paces street smarts.
To me its simple common sense to treat people the way I want to be treated, as it provides the best chance that I will actually BE treated the way I want to be treated.
Ill will begets ill will. Same, most of the time, for good will.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 02:05 AM
well since gr has made me the "decider", hmmm...let's see....(in my best harry caray voice)
chick's win!! Chick's win!!
thread over, have a safe drive home.
So true. So true.
:D
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 02:08 AM
We're all wondering the exact same thing.
Just like the proverbial coin has two sides, that knife cuts both ways. :)
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 02:19 AM
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
man. i'm sorry to be like GR and post 3 responses in a row instead of multi-quoting but... come on, really?! its like, why do GR and cyril think that there are these "mystery readers" out there reading these threads and agreeing with them but too scared to post as such? :confused:
I'm not thinking "mystery readers". I'm thinking that the vast majority of reg readers present don't have borderline personality issues; recognize that others are human beings too and deserve to be treated as such; and therefore couldn't possibly have an issue with something as universal and benign as "Do unto others as you'd have done unto you."
Like I said, its the basis of all the philosophical biggies... Its not religious dogma. Its man's contract with their fellow man. Its basic. It is at the core of our civil law. Its the alpha and omega of how people deal ethically with other people.
That anyone present might think it doesn't apply to strip-clubs [any human interaction, actually] I find totally amazing, and fascinating. Which is why I am on this thread as I am. Really interesting stuff. Got a whole Ted Bundy vibe going on from some of the folks present and makes me wonder if some folks were torturing neighborhood pets as kids. :O
OK... maybe that's an exaggeration but still... :)
Last two paragraphs were an attempt at humor to make a point. NOT an attack on anyone. [just in case that needed emphasizing]
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 02:23 AM
Yeah yeah, I'm a huge bitch because I am not constantly "wishing well" to people who regularly insult the intelligence of everyone on this board. :'(
BOO HOO. Vague spineless rudeness is still rude.
But there is something about someone who sees disagreement as rudeness and then makes it personal...
I started this part of the thread as a discussion about ethics in general as applied to interactions inside of S-Cs on all sides [not just dancers to customers] and bad faith on one side begets bad faith from the other. I didn't make it personal... others did, and you continue to. Making your responses about ME instead of about the ideas being presented.
You do that a lot.
Why do you think that we need you to tell us about the golden rule? Do you think that we are all stupid?
I don't think anyone here is stupid. I am beginning to believe some present don't treat people very well; or even, perhaps, think of their fellow travelers in the clubs as people "just like them"... but that isn't a matter of stupidity.
It does make me wonder why they can't see how such behavior, on the flip side of the same coin, is how others justify not treating them better than they do. I wonder why they don't understand that if you want to change the things you find bad about something you look in the mirror and ask yourself what you can change about yourself to make a difference, since that is the thing you have the most power over.
I don't understand what it is that some present don't understand that they promote the flip side of some of the same behavioral aspects that cause the very things they are complaining about that take place in the clubs. Why they don't understand that some of their own behavior is at the root of what facilitates others in acting out as they do.
There is a lot of fun to be had in strip-clubs and a lot of money to be made in the process. What stinks about them though is the effect of the COMBINED ill will brought through the door by management, dancers, and customers alike. Complaining about the ill will of one group, like dancers complaining about customers [or customers complaining about dancers] without addressing ALL OF IT will never resolve the problems.
That's just common sense.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 02:45 AM
Fear of repercussion when we treat each other in ways we wouldn't want to be treated is a big factor in what causes us humans to limit our behaviors (though seemingly some criminals don't connect the cause and effect dots).
RIGHT! And the flip side of it is that failure to do so becomes the others justification for acting in bad faith. In other words, in at least some extent the root of the very behavior being complained about. It becomes a vicious cycle of circular thinking. Someone gets treated badly so they use that as an excuse to treat someone else badly, who in turn uses it to justify treating yet someone else badly, etc, etc, etc.
That is sort of obvious and I don't understand why customers who complain about dancers and dancers who complain about customers don't stop and ask themselves, "I'm I doing something that adds to this whole thing?"
If everyone in all the clubs was applying the basic tenets of golden rule thinking to their actions imagine how cool S-Cs might be. All the good stuff without the bad faith present on all fronts.
Yeah, yeah.. I know.. Still its a lovely thought. :)
Correct. They absolutely do not.
See, I was in sales and it was one of the things I thought about.
I got GREAT repeat business because of it too. I didn't try to sell the side by side 45 cubic foot refrigerator/freezer to the single guy who I know isn't going to cook at home. He's going to have a six pack of beer in there and some cheese.
And that guy came back to me for his home entertainment system, his couch and coffee table, and eventually for the 45 cubic foot frig when he settled down. All because I treated him right, the way I would want to be treated, when I sold him the first thing he bought from me.
Didn't do it for too long though... I was good at it, made very good commissions, but it truly wasn't my thing.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-15-2009, 02:55 AM
There is a lot of fun to be had in strip-clubs and a lot of money to be made in the process.
Come on there is a huge difference between a guy using a corporate card and a guy scarpering for dollar on Market Street. Market Street is the best bang for the buck.
I pity the fools that think there is a connection for $400 an hour air dances.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 03:09 AM
Come on there is a huge difference between a guy using a corporate card and a guy scarpering for dollar on Market Street. Market Street is the best bang for the buck.
I pity the fools that think there is a connection for $400 an hour air dances.
OK, true, but I don't see how that applies to the point attempting to be made.
That was that S-Cs could be about having fun and making money, however much that is, in a much better environment all the way around except that people on all sides [management, dancers, customers] bringing ill will through the door with them [not using golden rule thinking] keep it from being all it might be.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-15-2009, 03:45 AM
OK, true, but I don't see how that applies to the point attempting to be made.
That was that S-Cs could be about having fun and making money, however much that is, in a much better environment all the way around except that people on all sides [management, dancers, customers] bringing ill will through the door with them [not using golden rule thinking] keep it from being all it might be.
OK I'm drunk and pissed off at my paid pussy; of course all pussy is paid pussy. :bedtime:
Do you know I got suckered punched at After Dark in Newark? We should hang then you could shoot him and I get to go home with the dancers.
bem401
10-15-2009, 05:30 AM
"Admirable" is a nice word BEM but it really means nothing here. Strip clubs are not bible schools BEM. Strip clubs are a place where men go to indulge in their most base and instinctive behavior (accept for you of course). The women who work their make money by exploiting that behavior. You keep trying to apply some sort of vague moralistic code to tits and ass. Good luck with that.
I guess I'm reluctant to knowingly allow myself to be exploited (your word) in order to get to spend some time with a pretty lady week after week. Been there, done that, saw it for what it was, and moved on. If it works for you, as it apparently does, more power to you.
xdamage
10-15-2009, 06:14 AM
RIGHT! And the flip side of it is that failure to do so becomes the others justification for acting in bad faith. In other words, in at least some extent the root of the very behavior being complained about. It becomes a vicious cycle of circular thinking. Someone gets treated badly so they use that as an excuse to treat someone else badly, who in turn uses it to justify treating yet someone else badly, etc, etc, etc.
Perhaps your frustration lies deeply rooted in the fact that you were in LE for many years and probably came across a lot of people who exhibited the "I'm going to get mine, screw everyone else" attitude. Many criminals have this attitude, but even when what one is doing is not illegal, it can seem to be the root cause of crime and much human self-inflicted suffering.
These same individuals are incredibly frustrating to someone who is trying to get them to see how that mindset just leads to an escalation that ultimately leaves them worse off. That there is a long term cost to that mindset, because others can play the same game and that big fish get eaten by bigger fish.
Some of that might be the personality type (aka an extreme degree of sociopathy), but some of that might be the environment. To the degree it is the environment, it is also incredibly frustrating for them to have others tell them how to survive, who are not themselves living it.
Telling them to be first to extend an olive branch is easy to say, but they also (correctly) know that it probably won't work. That unless everyone is forced to play be new rules at the same time, they'll just end up personally worse off.
See, I was in sales and it was one of the things I thought about.
It depends where you work, and the policies those above us reward us for. If someone sees the more aggressive sales people around them snatching up the customer money by telling customers only what they want to hear, it is human nature that many will just adapt and do whatever works in the short term.
princessjas
10-15-2009, 08:30 AM
Oh, BOO FUCKING HOO!! WHAAA!!
Hot naked chicks half your age won't rub up against you without you paying, huh? THAT is really what this thread is about and why we are getting pissy at you. You are basically saying we are BAD PEOPLE for making guys pay for our sevices. So what should we do, just wait around the club to act all flirty with any guy who fancies us for free. Yeah, that'd be a dream come true for all guys!
Well guess what?? You do not automatically have the right to have ANY woman you want, just because you think you should. We are not bad people because we would not be around some of our customers without being paid. Most of us aren't decieving anyone or otherwise causing them intentional harm, and have told you OVER and OVER that we ARE treating our customers as we would like to be treated...like reasonable adults who can make their own decisions. Dancing is our JOB of course we get PAID for it!! GET THE FUCK OVER IT! :O
Would it be better if all dancers and sex workers stopped working and then you had ZERO chance to get a dance or your disgusting extras from a young, hot girl? Somehow, I don't think many men would be happy with that. ::)
I can clearly see WHY you'd have to pay for an attractive woman, your charming personality certainly wouldn't be working in your favor. (Don't even start about it being age related, dancers are more likely than most to date older men as can clearly be seen on SW.)
RIGHT! And the flip side of it is that failure to do so becomes the others justification for acting in bad faith. In other words, in at least some extent the root of the very behavior being complained about. It becomes a vicious cycle of circular thinking. Someone gets treated badly so they use that as an excuse to treat someone else badly, who in turn uses it to justify treating yet someone else badly, etc, etc, etc.
That is sort of obvious and I don't understand why customers who complain about dancers and dancers who complain about customers don't stop and ask themselves, "I'm I doing something that adds to this whole thing?"
If everyone in all the clubs was applying the basic tenets of golden rule thinking to their actions imagine how cool S-Cs might be. All the good stuff without the bad faith present on all fronts.
Yeah, yeah.. I know.. Still its a lovely thought. :)
xdamage
10-15-2009, 10:05 AM
Would it be better if all dancers and sex workers stopped working and then you had ZERO chance to get a dance or your disgusting extras from a young, hot girl? Somehow, I don't think many men would be happy with that. ::)
It would suck! Likewise it would suck if gambling was illegal despite that a small percentage of people can't limit their spending, and I feel the same about various recreational drugs, and even prostitution, which I don't use but some people do and if they can handle it responsibly why not let them?
I really am fine with laws that try to protect the mentally unwell, but also if the vast majority can handle a vice it is wrong (IMHO) to make it illegal because a small few cannot handle it. Besides, I think many of those who are on a self destruct path would find ways to gamble, pay for sex, use drugs, whatever... even if it was illegal. Their lives are probably not better off in jail with criminal records. That just leaves them broke and broken in another way.
Elvia
10-15-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm not thinking "mystery readers". I'm thinking that the vast majority of reg readers present don't have borderline personality issues;
That anyone present might think it doesn't apply to strip-clubs [any human interaction, actually] I find totally amazing, and fascinating. Which is why I am on this thread as I am. Really interesting stuff. Got a whole Ted Bundy vibe going on from some of the folks present and makes me wonder if some folks were torturing neighborhood pets as kids. :O
OK... maybe that's an exaggeration but still... :)
Last two paragraphs were an attempt at humor to make a point. NOT an attack on anyone. [just in case that needed emphasizing]
There's a certain relief that comes out of it when someone begins to say things that are so ridiculous and crazy, that you realize it would be silly to ever be offended by anything they have to say again. Thanks.
We see what you're doing hon. You want to have it both ways, like that girl in middle school who always delivers the most blatant insults and thinks it's ok because she follows it up with "no offense." Sorry, doesn't work that way. What you have to say is either a valid point, or ridiculous and over the top. It can't be both. You want to throw a fit and pout about others insulting you, and then use "sneaky language" (sound familiar?) to insult others without having to take responsibility for it. It's pathetic and very transparent.
chris91
10-15-2009, 01:47 PM
But there is something about someone who sees disagreement as rudeness and then makes it personal...
I started this part of the thread as a discussion about ethics in general as applied to interactions inside of S-Cs on all sides [not just dancers to customers] and bad faith on one side begets bad faith from the other. I didn't make it personal... others did, and you continue to. Making your responses about ME instead of about the ideas being presented.
You do that a lot.
It isn't the disagreement that I find rude. It's the preachy holier-than-thou attitude. It's the implication that the people on this board are so stupid or evil, that we need you to come in and save us by telling us about the golden rule.
You didn't come in here to "discuss" ethics. You came in here to give us a lesson on ethics. You came in here to shake your finger at us and remind us of what a good guy you are. Now that is rude.
I don't think anyone here is stupid.
If you don't think that we are stupid, then why do you repeatedly offer unsolicited explanations of things that you consider to be common sense?
I am beginning to believe some present don't treat people very well; or even, perhaps, think of their fellow travelers in the clubs as people "just like them"... but that isn't a matter of stupidity.
It does make me wonder why they can't see how such behavior, on the flip side of the same coin, is how others justify not treating them better than they do. I wonder why they don't understand that if you want to change the things you find bad about something you look in the mirror and ask yourself what you can change about yourself to make a difference, since that is the thing you have the most power over.
I don't understand what it is that some present don't understand that they promote the flip side of some of the same behavioral aspects that cause the very things they are complaining about that take place in the clubs. Why they don't understand that some of their own behavior is at the root of what facilitates others in acting out as they do.
There is a lot of fun to be had in strip-clubs and a lot of money to be made in the process. What stinks about them though is the effect of the COMBINED ill will brought through the door by management, dancers, and customers alike. Complaining about the ill will of one group, like dancers complaining about customers [or customers complaining about dancers] without addressing ALL OF IT will never resolve the problems.
That's just common sense.
Ugh, ok this is my last try.
Nobody here is arguing that the golden rule is not a good thing to practice. In fact, everyone here has told you over and over that we do treat people the way we'd want to be treated, but you insist that we do not because one, you can't see the difference between selling dances and sexual assault and two, you think that we have some moral obligation to babysit strangers.
We do not nose into the business of strangers, because we would not want someone to do it to us.
We do not sexually assault dudes, because we would not want someone to do it to us.
You are suggesting that we should nose into the business of strangers, because we would not want to be sexually assaulted. It makes no sense.
Now, I fully expect you to say something like "NOT NOT NOT what I'm saying. Learn to read. Wishing well....", followed by whatever you decide to change your argument to this time, so I will save us some time and tell you now that nobody is buying it.
Also, I think that you are severely over-stating the amount of "ill will" in the clubs. Most of the customers/dancers/staff in the clubs are nice normal people who are not trying to "get over" on anyone. Of course, your definition of ill will is much much broader than that of the average person, so it makes sense that you would think we are all trying to screw each other over.
xdamage
10-15-2009, 07:41 PM
..Most of the customers/dancers/staff in the clubs are nice normal people who are not trying to "get over" on anyone. ...
Like I said, if I honestly believed most dancers or club owners were out to rip me off, if I was having to watch my back constantly, I wouldn't go. It wouldn't be fun and besides I wouldn't patronize a business like that, I'd vote with my wallet. Maybe they see an above average amount of dishonest because of the particular clubs they frequent? /shrug
princessjas
10-15-2009, 07:50 PM
Like I said, if I honestly believed most dancers or club owners were out to rip me off, if I was having to watch my back constantly, I wouldn't go. It wouldn't be fun and besides I wouldn't patronize a business like that, I'd vote with my wallet. Maybe they see an above average amount of dishonest because of the particular clubs they frequent? /shrug
Well that and maybe they choose to see the bad in people. If everyone I'd ever seen more than a few times judged me from my worst moment...maybe I wouldn't come across very well. If say, I have 1 day out of 20 that are bad, where I'm just a bit cranky does that mean I should be written off entirely??
Dunno, it's up for interpretation and dancers should certainly remember we are at work and try to project a positive attitude, but it's tough at times.
yoda57us
10-15-2009, 07:57 PM
I guess I'm reluctant to knowingly allow myself to be exploited (your word) in order to get to spend some time with a pretty lady week after week. Been there, done that, saw it for what it was, and moved on. If it works for you, as it apparently does, more power to you.
Well BEM my habits are not what you may think they are but that's neither here nor there. You are trying to make it personal but the debate here is not about what you or I do inside a strip club. I choose not to look down my nose at guys who spend money on dancers. The fact that you do makes your stance here all the more surprising. I would think that the last people you would feel sorry for would be guys who spend money on strippers...
By the way, I know you are a math Teacher not an English teacher but the word "exploit" has many meanings and not all of them are negative. It's all about context and, for some folks, state of mind...
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-15-2009, 08:02 PM
Women have all of the pussy and they know it.
Thank you Captain Obvious, for the anatomy lesson. Although I do know some guys who should technically qualify to possess a vagina.
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-15-2009, 08:05 PM
My point is that bleeding a delusional guy dry over time is not admirable behavior any more than the behavior of a pool or golf shark is. I know dancers who've done it and dancers who avoid doing it and I think more highly of those who don't.
Who cares what you think, you don't spend money on neither type of dancer, or any dancer at all.
And if you find so much disdain with the morals of these girls, why do you consider them friends and continue to harrass them every weekday afternoon after school gets out?
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 10:14 PM
Oh, BOO FUCKING HOO!! WHAAA!!
Hot naked chicks half your age won't rub up against you without you paying, huh? THAT is really what this thread is about and why we are getting pissy at you. You are basically saying we are BAD PEOPLE for making guys pay for our sevices. So what should we do, just wait around the club to act all flirty with any guy who fancies us for free. Yeah, that'd be a dream come true for all guys!
Well guess what?? You do not automatically have the right to have ANY woman you want, just because you think you should. We are not bad people because we would not be around some of our customers without being paid. Most of us aren't decieving anyone or otherwise causing them intentional harm, and have told you OVER and OVER that we ARE treating our customers as we would like to be treated...like reasonable adults who can make their own decisions. Dancing is our JOB of course we get PAID for it!! GET THE FUCK OVER IT! :O
Would it be better if all dancers and sex workers stopped working and then you had ZERO chance to get a dance or your disgusting extras from a young, hot girl? Somehow, I don't think many men would be happy with that. ::)
Where did that come from. Nothing of the above is anything I stated, nor related to any idea I put forth. I haven't commented on a dancer's right to get paid for her service [for the record, of course she should] or that I think dancers are generally bad people [for the record, I don't think that at all], or that any majority of them are being deceitful [for the record, some are the majority aren't].
That some aren't treating their customers the way they want to be treated, I pointed out the anomaly of certain dancers present on these very pages who complain about bad customer behavior but document their own bad behavior... thus pointing out they aren't treating others the way they want to be treated. The examples are small in number but they are present. So I suggested that perhaps a little "golden rule thinking" might make things better for everyone at the clubs.
You'd think I killed your puppies the way some of you go on in response. ::)
I can clearly see WHY you'd have to pay for an attractive woman, your charming personality certainly wouldn't be working in your favor. (Don't even start about it being age related, dancers are more likely than most to date older men as can clearly be seen on SW.)
I was going to comment yesterday congratulating you for being one of the ones who, even though you disagreed, kept this to ideas and not personalities [there is no reason people have to agree with each other, but making it personal is just plain wrong headed]. I'm glad I didn't as it would have been rendered moot by the above.
Why can't some people present disagree without making it personal? Debate ideas instead of personalities?
For the record you don't know me any better than I know you so the above comment is farcical as it can't possible be based on anything other than being peeved. I'll point out the obvious and state that peeved isn't a good place to start on making specific character evaluations. So why don't we all agree to keep this to the ideas being presented and not bad attempts at character assassination. You know, like a real dialog. ::)
Elvia
10-15-2009, 10:24 PM
I was going to comment yesterday congratulating you for being one of the few who, even though you disagreed, kept this to ideas and not personalities. I'm glad I didn't as it would have been rendered moot by the above.
Why can't some people present disagree without making it personal? Debate ideas instead of personalities?
For the record you don't know me any better than I know you so the above comment is farcical as it can't possible be based on anything other than being peeved. I'll point out the obvious and state that peeved isn't a good place to start on making generalized character evaluations. So why don't we all agree to keep this to the ideas being presented and not bad attempts at character assassination. You know, like a real dialog. ::)
Seriously? This, from the guy who accuses us of having "borderline personality disorder" and "murdering" small animals? Seriously? Do you even know what you're saying half the time?