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Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 10:24 PM
There's a certain relief that comes out of it when someone begins to say things that are so ridiculous and crazy, that you realize it would be silly to ever be offended by anything they have to say again. Thanks.
We see what you're doing hon. You want to have it both ways, like that girl in middle school who always delivers the most blatant insults and thinks it's ok because she follows it up with "no offense." Sorry, doesn't work that way. What you have to say is either a valid point, or ridiculous and over the top. It can't be both. You want to throw a fit and pout about others insulting you, and then use "sneaky language" (sound familiar?) to insult others without having to take responsibility for it. It's pathetic and very transparent.
You really seem to have personal issues with me and it causes you to NOT read what I wrote.
The comment about "not having borderline personality disorders" is generalized and refers only to the lurking readers, NOT to anyone else. Also the fact that I state that is in response to your comment about why I would think they might take a positive view on argument. That I say they don't isn't suggesting some other person, or group of persons does.
The Ted Bundy comment is directly labeled as an attempt at humor. That I felt the need to label such an obvious attempt at humor as such was directly because of you, as I figured you wouldn't get it. Even with a label on it saying: THIS IS A JOKE you didn't get it.
So your argument above is baseless.
And again I ask why is it impossible for you to keep the dialog to the ideas being presented. Why do you always have to make it about ME instead.
You got some kind of thing going on... you crushing on me a little?
^^^^^ JOKE ^^^^^ Smile, get a sense of humor, its critical.
Back to our regularly scheduled program.
Elvia
10-15-2009, 10:27 PM
^^^ Actually, if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that I addressed this as your attempt to pass it off as a joke. Why don't you try again?
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 10:28 PM
...but even when what one is doing is not illegal, it can seem to be the root cause of crime and much human self-inflicted suffering.
These same individuals are incredibly frustrating to someone who is trying to get them to see how that mindset just leads to an escalation that ultimately leaves them worse off. That there is a long term cost to that mindset, because others can play the same game and that big fish get eaten by bigger fish.
Some of that might be the personality type (aka an extreme degree of sociopathy), but some of that might be the environment. To the degree it is the environment, it is also incredibly frustrating for them to have others tell them how to survive, who are not themselves living it.
I don't doubt that particularly. I know that my POV is dramatically effected by what I have witnessed, which is why I keep bringing it up.
Telling them to be first to extend an olive branch is easy to say, but they also (correctly) know that it probably won't work. That unless everyone is forced to play be new rules at the same time, they'll just end up personally worse off.
I am not stating they should extend an olive branch first though. I thought I have been pretty clear that these things have to be address on the management, dancer and customer sides simultaneously to have any real impact.
It depends where you work, and the policies those above us reward us for. If someone sees the more aggressive sales people around them snatching up the customer money by telling customers only what they want to hear, it is human nature that many will just adapt and do whatever works in the short term.
Hmmm... If one thinks strictly within the box, yes. Being able to see outside of it goes a long way to understanding the advantages of NOT taking a common behavioral route to greater reward and profit. One that might even have advantages for everyone involved.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 10:36 PM
^^^ Actually, if you read what I wrote, you would have seen that I addressed this as your attempt to pass it off as a joke. Why don't you try again?
But I wasn't trying to pass it off as a joke... it was a joke from where I was sitting. A droll one but amusing.
What I am doing in this thread is presenting an idea and making generalized behavioral assessments about a group activity we all have at least some level of experience with; a commonality.
What you are doing is making specific behavioral assessment of MY behavior; without ever knowing me, from a vantage point on the other side of an electron stream.
You don't see why that might be a bit of a stretch on your part? I don't claim to know you at all. You are making statements like you know me rather well. Trust me, you don't. And the more mean spirited you get about this the more I find comfort in that fact.
Elvia
10-15-2009, 10:37 PM
I am not stating they should extend an olive branch first though. I thought I have been pretty clear that these things have to be address on the management, dancer and customer sides simultaneously to have any real impact.
Even if by some magic you did get all the dancers and management to go along with this, what do you think are the chances are of getting all the customers to simultaneously stop being douchebags? I'm going to go with zilch.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 10:42 PM
Seriously? This, from the guy who accuses us of having "borderline personality disorder" and "murdering" small animals? Seriously? Do you even know what you're saying half the time?
I did NO such thing and the fact that you got that out of what I wrote expresses volumes.
This dialog stopped being one quite a bit back and NOT because of anything I did.
It seems you are incapable, at least with me, of having a debate without getting personal about it.
Again, I offer the obvious impasse solver of simply agreeing to disagree and ending it there.
Golden_Rule
10-15-2009, 11:06 PM
Even if by some magic you did get all the dancers and management to go along with this, what do you think are the chances are of getting all the customers to simultaneously stop being douchebags? I'm going to go with zilch.
See, there you go asking a legitimate, non-making it personal question that deserves a legitimate answer. Though refering ALL the customers as douche bags... I don't know... {LOL} :)
Nothing is ever impacted directly by people until people try.
Global warming isn't going to change with 2 Billion + Chinese and Indians using 20th century fossil fuel technology to pull themselves into the industrial age. Does that mean that folks in the U.S. should avoid 21st century technologies to make a dent in our contributions to the problem?
After all, "What do you think the chances are of getting all those Chinese and Indians to simultaneously stop being douche bags?", to use your way of putting it.
The knowledge that thinking outside that box of conformity is what is actually getting the Chinese government to spearhead their own "green revolution". The lack of ability to do it on our part is why we might be left in the proverbial dust as China becomes the new superpower of the 21st Century on the crest of a wave we failed to jump on as it went by us.
So, at least at this moment, it appears the Chinese may be smarter than us as a whole, both helping solve a global problem and profiting greatly by it in the process.
My point is that the application of what I am suggesting doesn't have to be solely seen as giving up something. There are frequently opportunities to profit by being the first people to act on solving a problem effecting an entire community.
Being the dancer seen by others as a straight-shooting, square dealing, "nice" person could actually be profitable.
xdamage
10-15-2009, 11:46 PM
So, at least at this moment, it appears the Chinese may be smarter than us as a whole, both helping solve a global problem and profiting greatly by it in the process.
I just think they are over populated, 10s of millions starving to death, and they have a lot of mouths who out of desperation are willing to do more for less. The money shifted there not because they are more clever but because they are willing to work harder for a share of the global pie. Their greenness, thriftiness, driven by need because energy costs them such a huge amount as compared with us.
The world already shifted huge amounts of technology there by setting up manufacturing plants to take advantage of the cheap labor. The technical knowledge to a great degree was given away too, or readily available in the open market. They are still behind in areas where the technical knowledge is kept secret.
At the same time, our own people expect to be paid very well, having enjoyed several decades of increasing prosperity, we haven't yet really felt the life or death demand for cutting back on use of non renewable resources.
Looked at like that, it wasn't altruism or any kum-bi-yah mindset that is behind it. Just raw survival instinct. And given enough time, they will likely also go through the same cycle, an expectation of increased pay, more free time, work laws that protect them, etc. just like what is happening/happened in Japan, and with it, economic decline as the money again shifts to parts of the world where people are more desperate.
My point is people can seemingly cooperate but there needs to be some forces behind it. The SCs in the USA work they work today because of the self-serving goals of the club owners, dancers and customers. They just aren't likely to work together any differently unless some 4th force pushes at them all at the same time. For example, a 4th force might be the rest of society as a whole could go on a rampage to clean the places up or shut them down, but at the moment I see no trend in that direction.
Golden_Rule
10-16-2009, 01:05 AM
I just think they are over populated, 10s of millions starving to death, and they have a lot of mouths who out of desperation are willing to do more for less. The money shifted there not because they are more clever but because they are willing to work harder for a share of the global pie. Their greenness, thriftiness, driven by need because energy costs them such a huge amount as compared with us.
The world already shifted huge amounts of technology there by setting up manufacturing plants to take advantage of the cheap labor. The technical knowledge to a great degree was given away too, or readily available in the open market. They are still behind in areas where the technical knowledge is kept secret.
At the same time, our own people expect to be paid very well, having enjoyed several decades of increasing prosperity, we haven't yet really felt the life or death demand for cutting back on use of non renewable resources.
Looked at like that, it wasn't altruism or any kum-bi-yah mindset that is behind it. Just raw survival instinct. And given enough time, they will likely also go through the same cycle, an expectation of increased pay, more free time, work laws that protect them, etc. just like what is happening/happened in Japan, and with it, economic decline as the money again shifts to parts of the world where people are more desperate.
My point is people can seemingly cooperate but there needs to be some forces behind it. The SCs in the USA work they work today because of the self-serving goals of the club owners, dancers and customers. They just aren't likely to work together any differently unless some 4th force pushes at them all at the same time. For example, a 4th force might be the rest of society as a whole could go on a rampage to clean the places up or shut them down, but at the moment I see no trend in that direction.
Solid points, all. I agree altruism isn't enough. My point was the profit potential in it being the 4th force.
You don't see that as a possibility I presume?
For instance, as I stated earlier, one of the things that makes our PP's profitable, besides cache, is the notion that it is a place were security is very rigid [we have a retired cop running the floor and security, and the security detail is all off duty NYPD] and everyone can feel secure when there.
We maintain, as much as possible, a presumption of safety while doing it in a way that is as noninvasive as possible and still get the job done. Through our [my] screening process we have whittled down the customers and entertainers, as much as possible, to people who will do right by one another.
It is a much more controlled environment than a club open to anyone who walks off the street so its probably not the best example, but it is possible.
Elvia
10-16-2009, 01:19 AM
I'd still say it's a poor analogy. Environmental regulations don't happen because all those people just magically decided to start doing the right thing at the exact same time. Customers aren't going to be so easily governed into being polite to dancers. In fact, I don't see any way to regulate that.
chris91
10-16-2009, 03:10 AM
That some aren't treating their customers the way they want to be treated, I pointed out the anomaly of certain dancers present on these very pages who complain about bad customer behavior but document their own bad behavior... thus pointing out they aren't treating others the way they want to be treated. The examples are small in number but they are present.
Will we finally see some examples of people "on these very pages" who are not treating others the way they want to be treated, or will GR continue to douche his way around providing them? Tune in next week to find out.
chris91
10-16-2009, 03:13 AM
I did NO such thing...
Yep. You did. Granted, you said it in a way that would make it easy for you to backpedal, but you still said it.
Elvia
10-16-2009, 03:18 AM
Will we finally see some examples of people "on these very pages" who are not treating others the way they want to be treated, or will GR continue to douche his way around providing them? Tune in next week to find out.
LOL. I love your sense of humor. You've made a thread that's rife with some of the most mind bogglingly stupid contributions a whole lot more bearable.
chris91
10-16-2009, 03:23 AM
I'd still say it's a poor analogy. Environmental regulations don't happen because all those people just magically decided to start doing the right thing at the exact same time. Customers aren't going to be so easily governed into being polite to dancers. In fact, I don't see any way to regulate that.
I do think that there is a way to regulate it. It involves large bouncers who actually do their jobs, and cops who don't laugh in our faces.
I don't think that us refusing to sell dances to drunk dudes would improve the behavior of the customers at all. At best, I think it would piss them off, and at worst, I think it would encourage them to take advantage of us.
Elvia
10-16-2009, 03:26 AM
^^^You're absolutely right. It can be regulated. What I should have said is that there's no way to completely eliminate the bad behavior from happening in the first place.
Optimist
10-16-2009, 03:40 AM
I feel like my thread got fucking jacked here to a whole different topic.
I will say this shit again...
If you're going to go to a strip club(to an upscale one especially) to tell every dancer you cannot aford a $20 dance bc of the recession.....stay out!! Seriously, stay the hell out. There are men who aren't even tipping the bartenders & waitresses too. Chugging away on their hot cheap beer.
It's not only strip clubs.... if you can't afford to go somewhere, don't go. It's that damn simple.
Fuckin' A, shit. This shouldn't be so hard to grasp.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
xdamage
10-16-2009, 05:58 AM
Solid points, all. I agree altruism isn't enough. My point was the profit potential in it being the 4th force.
You don't see that as a possibility I presume?
A clean club that has customers and dancers treated fairly might bring in more total money, so yes that is potential force that might affect how how clubs operate. Still, I honestly don't know if total money spent in gambling establishments went up or down due to laws that require them to monitor for compulsive gamblers. Possibly it improved the communities opinion of the business and indirectly lead to more customers. I have no idea.
But there are so many variables there is really know way for me to know if SCs could bring in much more for the owner, the dancers, etc., or if people would just spend less, further take advantage of the free sales pitch*, and while everyone is polite, overall spending goes down.
* SCs are one of the only venues where many customers feel they are getting free entertainment while the sales person is pitching. It is because the dancers are both sales people and the product/service being sold that the business is unique. It's all too easy for customers to quickly see how to get free samples, test drives, etc., by prolonging the sales pitch, to go on and on while spending less. We have to be careful about applying rules that work in one situation to others that are different; even seemingly small variables can dramatically change the outcomes.
bem401
10-16-2009, 06:06 AM
Well BEM my habits are not what you may think they are but that's neither here nor their. You are trying to make it personal but the debate here is not about what you or I do inside a strip club. I choose not to look down my nose at guys who spend money on dancers. The fact that you do makes your stance here all the more surprising. I would think that the last people you would feel sorry for would be guys who spend money on strippers...
Well, which is it? Am I looking down my nose at them or feeling sorry for them? I don't see how it can be both.
I look down on the perverts and the looky-loos I hear the girls complain about. I feel badly for the guys who get in over their head because of their naivete. And I am indifferent to those in the middle who understand the game, can afford to participate, and choose to do so. I'll assume you belong to this group. I was once an active member of this group myself. For my friends' sakes, its good these guys exist.
By the way, I know you are a math Teacher not an English teacher but the word "exploit" has many meanings and not all of them are negative. It's all about context and, for some folks, state of mind...
Thanks for the heads-up on "exploit" having multiple meanings. Are you implying I took your use of it out-of-context? I know I'm only a math teacher and you wouldn't personalize things by mentioning something like that, but if we are offering tips in the proper use of words here, you might want to brush up on "accept" vs. "except" and "their" vs. "there". I'd have pointed them out earlier but I truly didn't want to personalize the discussion.
bem401
10-16-2009, 06:43 AM
Who cares what you think, you don't spend money on neither type of dancer, or any dancer at all.
Who ever said I spend no money at all? All I've ever said is most of the girls I've become friendly with over the years now prefer not to do dances with me and/or are not my type in the first place. I don't see the point of paying someone to sit with me, particularly when I run into them in social situations IRL. I am always ready to offer to buy them a drink or dinner or occasionally cover a tipout. Its the only common comfort zone we can find in the club.
And if you find so much disdain with the morals of these girls, why do you consider them friends and continue to harrass them every weekday afternoon after school gets out?
On my next visit,I'll be sure to ask my friends who choose to stop by if they consider my being there harassment. I'm pretty sure if they did, they'd avoid coming by and I never join them uninvited. The other night, I spent a couple of hours with a usually-busy friend who had dinner and drinks on me for the 90 minutes while I was literally the only guy in the club. I'm pretty sure she was glad as I was there. Once customers started showing up and she smelled money, she was off to work. Is there something wrong with that picture?
I don't hold them in disdain either. I may not agree with everything they do, but I'm pretty sure they might not agree with everything I do either.
princessjas
10-16-2009, 07:18 AM
Where did that come from? You'd think reading 17 pages of your ridiculous drivel would do it, but NO. I didn't get good and pissed till you said we had "borderline personality issues" and a "Ted Bundy like vibe." Yes, I realize you didn't directly say the first, because if you did, you'd have to be a man and own it. You actually said you assumed anyone reading this thread would agree with you and not us beause they didn't have borderline personality issues, thereby expressing your opinion that we DO. (BTW - It's fucking stupid that I had to write out that logic, but I knew damn well if I didn't you'd deny the obvious meaning.)
If you do not think we are doing something wrong simply by taking money then WHY have you continued your preaching for 17 damn pages when we have told you over and over that we DO treat customers the way we would wish to be treated? It doesn't take a genuis to see that you obviously think we are doing something wrong by simply dancing and treating others fairly (like we would want to be treated, before you question the meaning of fair treatment).
The comment about your personality, was made from the way you have presented yourself over several years on this board. If you presented a more pleasant demeanor in most threads and this one was an anomaly, then I would not have commented.
Where did that come from. Nothing of the above is anything I stated, nor related to any idea I put forth. I haven't commented on a dancer's right to get paid for her service [for the record, of course she should] or that I think dancers are generally bad people [for the record, I don't think that at all], or that any majority of them are being deceitful [for the record, some are the majority aren't].
That some aren't treating their customers the way they want to be treated, I pointed out the anomaly of certain dancers present on these very pages who complain about bad customer behavior but document their own bad behavior... thus pointing out they aren't treating others the way they want to be treated. The examples are small in number but they are present. So I suggested that perhaps a little "golden rule thinking" might make things better for everyone at the clubs.
You'd think I killed your puppies the way some of you go on in response. ::)
I was going to comment yesterday congratulating you for being one of the ones who, even though you disagreed, kept this to ideas and not personalities [there is no reason people have to agree with each other, but making it personal is just plain wrong headed]. I'm glad I didn't as it would have been rendered moot by the above.
Why can't some people present disagree without making it personal? Debate ideas instead of personalities?
For the record you don't know me any better than I know you so the above comment is farcical as it can't possible be based on anything other than being peeved. I'll point out the obvious and state that peeved isn't a good place to start on making specific character evaluations. So why don't we all agree to keep this to the ideas being presented and not bad attempts at character assassination. You know, like a real dialog. ::)
xdamage
10-16-2009, 08:45 AM
...I feel badly for the guys who get in over their head because of their naivete. ....
So I remember once there was this young marine who two dancers worked on... I felt badly for him because he was drunk, young, and there was a good chance he was going to do something he later regretted. I could see it coming. But it was none of my business so I did what most customers would do, ignored them and enjoyed my vacation time.
It was one of the few times I've paid for the VIP room (with a very cute brunette who did a wonderful job of entertaining me for an hour, but to the story...)...
So about 20 minutes into my time here comes the marine and two dancers in the next booth over... fairly soon they are telling him no, we don't have sex in here... and it was $800 for both for them, plus bar tab, something like $1000 for the hour plus they told him he had to tip them and the waitress. At this point the reality starts sinking in and the marine's mood went from drunken "I'm going to get layed by two hot women guy to OMFG I'm going to be broke guy." He told them that was his entire paycheck, he didn't have that much... and I tuned the rest out...
So I see him a bit later in the club sitting there drunker then hell, and pissed telling people he got ripped off.
Should I have said something earlier? Should management? Should the dancers have asked first or tried to sell less hard?
Maybe it could have been avoided by some simple changes, such as requiring he pay up front before entering the VIP room? Casinos for example require you pay the money before you lay the bet. That would be an easy change, but not necessarily one that the SC wants since it discourages a customer from impulse buying the 2nd-Nth hour of time.
Would a sign on the door helped? One making it clearer that Strip clubs do NOT sell Sex in the VIP room? Because even though the dancers know it was a fantasy, it doesn't mean all patrons do. He was pretty young and this might have been his first trip to a SC. No idea.
Maybe changes to the laws regarding public intoxication? He was publicly intoxicated. Should we alter our laws to prevent bars from selling more alcohol to people who are visibly impaired? I'd say 99.9% of the public would agree he was visibly impaired.
Maybe the dancers did suggest to him that he was going to get laid; is that fantasy? or did it violate local ordinances to even suggest prostitution might occur? If not would the average person in public be confused? think that an offer of prostitution had occurred and if so, should SCs be exempt from such laws because they know they are selling fantasy even though some patrons do not? But shouldn't the Marine go to Jail then for accepting an offer of prostitution, even solicit it himself?
The point is it is easy to blame the dancers because they are the most immediate sales people, but there were many people involved, and many people who could have intervened, including LE, and many possible ways to change the rules IF we believe that this young marine would have been better off had he not spent his pay check, apparently thinking he was going to get laid by two women, apparently for less?
The point of this story? Just that I agree. I occasionally have seen situations like that and it does make me think the industry needs some changes. But I also don't do anything about it and I think if we really cared enough to change it, the industry needs to be changed through enforced regulations, not through vague intuitive feelings about who is, and who isn't being exploited.
yoda57us
10-16-2009, 09:29 AM
Well, which is it? Am I looking down my nose at them or feeling sorry for them? I don't see how it can be both.
Neither do I BEM but I'm not the one who is conflicted here, it's you. You have stated on more than one occasion that guys who spend money on dancers are losers and now you are arguing that they should be protected from themselves. Which is it?
I look down on the perverts and the looky-loos I hear the girls complain about. I feel badly for the guys who get in over their head because of their naivete. And I am indifferent to those in the middle who understand the game, can afford to participate, and choose to do so. I'll assume you belong to this group. I was once an active member of this group myself. For my friends' sakes, its good these guys exist.
Well see there, you just answered your own question...
Thanks for the heads-up on "exploit" having multiple meanings. Are you implying I took your use of it out-of-context? I know I'm only a math teacher and you wouldn't personalize things by mentioning something like that, but if we are offering tips in the proper use of words here, you might want to brush up on "accept" vs. "except" and "their" vs. "there". I'd have pointed them out earlier but I truly didn't want to personalize the discussion.
Good to see that you are paying attention BEM but typos are not the same thing as innuendo. I've never claimed to be a good speller and I'm even worse at proof reading. I get by OK but I will never be confused for a scholar. You go right ahead and point those errors out though...
laurcon
10-16-2009, 12:39 PM
It was one of the few times I've paid for the VIP room (with a very cute brunette who did a wonderful job of entertaining me for an hour, but to the story...)...
So about 20 minutes into my time here comes the marine and two dancers in the next booth over... fairly soon they are telling him no, we don't have sex in here... and it was $800 for both for them, plus bar tab, something like $1000 for the hour plus they told him he had to tip them and the waitress. At this point the reality starts sinking in and the marine's mood went from drunken "I'm going to get layed by two hot women guy to OMFG I'm going to be broke guy." He told them that was his entire paycheck, he didn't have that much... and I tuned the rest out...
Maybe it could have been avoided by some simple changes, such as requiring he pay up front before entering the VIP room? Casinos for example require you pay the money before you lay the bet. That would be an easy change, but not necessarily one that the SC wants since it discourages a customer from impulse buying the 2nd-Nth hour of time.
The point is it is easy to blame the dancers because they are the most immediate sales people, but there were many people involved, and many people who could have intervened, including LE, and many possible ways to change the rules IF we believe that this young marine would have been better off had he not spent his pay check, apparently thinking he was going to get laid by two women, apparently for less?
i don't see what the guy being a marine has to do with anything. hey i appreciate his service, but it really doesn't change that he's just a man like anyone else.
i'm completely surprised that the club would let this guy get $1000 worth of services before paying. that seems outrageous to me. at my club the guys pay every hour, we don't just go "that'll be $8,000 please, sir" at the end of the night.
so at the time that the guy has to pay the bill, could he not just go "i was promised sex and didn't receive it, i'm not paying." oh yeah probably not, since then he would be admitting he broke the law. guess that's the risk you take when you seek extras in a SC.
i personally don't do this because its not worth the fuss to me, but i know many girls who will let a guy think he's getting something in the back and just stall and stall and never do it, because what is he going to do. now i just said i don't do this, but i don't feel bad one tiny bit for the guys that this happens to!!
xdamage
10-16-2009, 03:00 PM
i don't see what the guy being a marine has to do with anything. hey i appreciate his service, but it really doesn't change that he's just a man like anyone else.
i'm completely surprised that the club would let this guy get $1000 worth of services before paying. that seems outrageous to me. at my club the guys pay every hour, we don't just go "that'll be $8,000 please, sir" at the end of the night.
so at the time that the guy has to pay the bill, could he not just go "i was promised sex and didn't receive it, i'm not paying." oh yeah probably not, since then he would be admitting he broke the law. guess that's the risk you take when you seek extras in a SC.
i personally don't do this because its not worth the fuss to me, but i know many girls who will let a guy think he's getting something in the back and just stall and stall and never do it, because what is he going to do. now i just said i don't do this, but i don't feel bad one tiny bit for the guys that this happens to!!
It is $400 per hour, so x2 girls = $800 plus this club has a mandatory bar bill, etc. so he was on his first hour, and typically they'd collect at the end of the hour (that is how they did it the 3x I've done, pay at the end of the hour).
FWIW though, they actually kind of did him a favor by raising the price issue before the hour was up, but why not before entering the VIP? But at this club also invariable nobody mentions the mandatory bar bill until after one is through the door and seated, and I've been here before and they just added a random fee of $50, room use fee, which I asked about later and the management refunded - it's a bogus fee - truly a rip off fee. So it happens and we consumers do have to be careful.
I actually didn't say his being a Marine mattered, but in raises a key point... which is what I've been saying to GR as well... and no offense, but those selling a product are in it to make money, that is fine, but it also means they have a conflict of interest and don't represent the opinion of the community of consumers, which is 99% of the voting population, and the rest of the community does have a right to an opinion about what is a fair business practice.
We can still ask what does the average person think, and if the average person would be influenced by the patron's age, job, homeless status, etc., it is up to the business owner to fight for the belief that these do not matter, for the community to fight otherwise, and in the end they come to some agreement.
Look at it like this, if it was a story about a single mother of three who had spent all of her savings at Harrah's Casino, the story was they kept serving her drinks until she was barely able to stand, those around her watched the Casino employees tell her she would win big if she spins just one more time, and then she ends up broke, her sex and child status would have NOTHING to do with it, but assuredly the community as a whole would react far more emotionally, re-asking again if the Casinos go to far.
It's the Casino's job to sell, and I disagree with GR that it should be up to the good will of the Casino employees to stop that kind of thing. That would depend on intuition and human altruism. OTOH it is absolutely the right of society to have an opinion about what is fair and reasonable business practice, and to push for laws and regulations that restrict business practices.
Fair practice really comes down to a simple matter. What would the common person feel/think in the same situation. When enough common people feel/think that a business is not dealing fairly that is valid. Even if under intense scrutiny the dealings are technically correct, society can still come to the conclusion that the average person's mindset, thinking, and feelings would lead them to make bad purchase.
It's the same reason why businesses get into trouble for making technically correct, but difficult to substantiate claims, such as Extenze, Diet pills, etc... even if what they claim is not technically incorrect, it can still be that the intent is to walk a fine line, that the society as a whole thinks the seller has gone too far, and push for laws that better protect us consumers. We're all beneficiaries of that process a thousand times over in some way.
princessjas
10-16-2009, 04:32 PM
^^Most girls I knew, myself included, mentioned the price of things like VIP beforehand, especially if the guy was really young looking and therefore may not be able to afford the hour. If the guy then confirmed that he was ok with this, I didn't question further though. I wouldn't want someone quizzing me on my finances and so I don't do it to others....Once again, I AM following the Golden Rule if ya notice.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-16-2009, 04:45 PM
^^^You're absolutely right. It can be regulated. What I should have said is that there's no way to completely eliminate the bad behavior from happening in the first place.
Do as they do in Newark and outlaw private dances as they are bad.
Elvia
10-16-2009, 05:21 PM
Do as they do in Newark and outlaw private dances as they are bad.
1) It might be time to come up with a new joke. You've worked this one to death.
2) Guys don't have to be buying dances to treat the dancers badly. Most of the guys who act like assholes never make it the private dance area. So this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
laurcon
10-16-2009, 05:26 PM
FWIW though, they actually kind of did him a favor by raising the price issue before the hour was up, but why not before entering the VIP? But at this club also invariable nobody mentions the mandatory bar bill until after one is through the door and seated, and I've been here before and they just added a random fee of $50, room use fee, which I asked about later and the management refunded - it's a bogus fee - truly a rip off fee. So it happens and we consumers do have to be careful.
I actually didn't say his being a Marine mattered, but in raises a key point... which is what I've been saying to GR as well... and no offense, but those selling a product are in it to make money, that is fine, but it also means they have a conflict of interest and don't represent the opinion of the community of consumers, which is 99% of the voting population, and the rest of the community does have a right to an opinion about what is a fair business practice.
We can still ask what does the average person think, and if the average person would be influenced by the patron's age, job, homeless status, etc., it is up to the business owner to fight for the belief that these do not matter, for the community to fight otherwise, and in the end they come to some agreement.
Look at it like this, if it was a story about a single mother of three who had spent all of her savings at Harrah's Casino, the story was they kept serving her drinks until she was barely able to stand, those around her watched the Casino employees tell her she would win big if she spins just one more time, and then she ends up broke, her sex and child status would have NOTHING to do with it, but assuredly the community as a whole would react far more emotionally, re-asking again if the Casinos go to far.
having a room fee doesn't seem bogus or a rip-off to me. you spent an hour in a booth where you could overhear what was happening in the next booth. that doesn't sound very "VIP" to me. so maybe they're going to use those fees to build some real rooms and charge a much higher room fee. what's the clubs incentive to even have VIP rooms? the dancer making more money? an extra liability? room fees just seem normal to me, renting the dancer and the room.
and just because an "average person" or a community may get emotional and act like judgmental morons doesn't mean we have to condone it and participate. i think we're able to see all humans as equal, regardless of their age, gender, race, marital status, child status, military service, etc., so why take steps back and act like any of that matters?
but you didn't really deal with my point that if the women landed the room by promising something illegal, the buyer made a verbal contract to acquire said illegal services and therefore fair business practices are somewhat out-the-window. i feel like you're talking about regulating a black market.
and if the guy only thought he was going to get laid without any explicit promises from the dancers, then are you saying he didn't know that paying for sex is illegal? he thought you could legally have sex with a prostitute in a VIP booth? right. ::)
KiwiStrawberry Splenda
10-17-2009, 01:46 AM
On my next visit,I'll be sure to ask my friends who choose to stop by if they consider my being there harassment. I'm pretty sure if they did, they'd avoid coming by and I never join them uninvited. I spent a couple of hours with a usually-busy friend who had dinner and drinks on me for the 90 minutes while I was literally the only guy in the club. I'm pretty sure she was glad as I was there.
In your defense, you are tolerable as a bar regular. Some are wastes of space and should be left on the front lawn for heavy trash pickup day. Plus, she was hungry.
xdamage
10-17-2009, 06:45 AM
having a room fee doesn't seem bogus or a rip-off to me.
::)
Great, then the next time you buy something if the seller tacks on an extra unadvertised fee thinking they can pull a fast one on you, I would suggest you should pay it if it seems reasonable to you.
While everyone else pays the actual price.
Business including SCs can do anything they want but they simply cannot require all of us humans to pretend they never pull scams. I'd be doing you (and we all would) a HUGE disservice to pretend it's cool.
The price is $400 an hour. It is bad enough they don't post it, or the mandatory bar tab. But if you call and ask, that is the price. They simply do not charge everyone $50 room fees. I should have kept the email I received back from Olympic Gardens.
In that email management said, SORRY! We suspected this goes on but people don't tell us. The fee was bogus, money the people working there pocketed. They wanted the dancers name.
Only a completely naive customer would not know it is bogus, a rip off fee. In any club or any venue they would agree with me that it is not okay to do the following:
"Hmm that person looks naive. Normally this product costs X$, but we will make it X$ + 50 extra and pocket that because hey, who is to know?"
you spent an hour in a booth where you could overhear what was happening in the next booth. that doesn't sound very "VIP" to me. so maybe they're going to use those fees to build some real rooms and charge a much higher room fee. what's the clubs incentive to even have VIP rooms? the dancer making more money? an extra liability? room fees just seem normal to me, renting the dancer and the room.
I am going to assume this is a joke. How many VIP rooms are entirely private? Are you honestly suggesting that SCs should now include an upgrade VIP room tax in the VIP price?
and just because an "average person" or a community may get emotional and act like judgmental morons doesn't mean we have to condone it and participate. i think we're able to see all humans as equal, regardless of their age, gender, race, marital status, child status, military service, etc., so why take steps back and act like any of that matters?
Because it does matter. Society is us people. We are what matter. And even though we want simple this is right, this is wrong rules, reality is more complex.
If you want to understand humans in simple black or white terms then it won't make sense. But the reality is human responsibility, awareness, and honesty spans a huge gray scale from completely unaware to very, from extremely dishonest to honest.
It's why people can get upset over matters like the people who profited from Girls Gone Wild, drunk 18 year olds women are legal adults, but even though the law allows it, society still knows that we don't switch from being immature children to fully cognizant adults at 17 yrs, 59hrs, 59 minutes, 59 seconds, to MAGIC... walla, Adult and fully aware!
Because we also know business is in it for themselves and will push and prod at every possible limit to try and make money, and that is fine, and it means we need to adjust our laws, but they are doing it to make money. Not because it is in the majorities best interest.
It's because people do discriminate against others based on race, age, sex; and likewise target them if they believe statistically they are easier to pull a fast one over on, that we know it matters.
but you didn't really deal with my point that if the women landed the room by promising something illegal, the buyer made a verbal contract to acquire said illegal services and therefore fair business practices are somewhat out-the-window. i feel like you're talking about regulating a black market.
and if the guy only thought he was going to get laid without any explicit promises from the dancers, then are you saying he didn't know that paying for sex is illegal? he thought you could legally have sex with a prostitute in a VIP booth? right. ::)
I didn't answer it, but the answer is this (two points):
Humans, including many dancers in Vegas (which is where it happened) are not lawyers. They couldn't even tell you where to go read the laws, or how to interpret them, because not even the law writers are sure what is allowed in SCs, the laws are that inaccessible and vague.
Dancers tend to depend on management to know the laws. Visitors to Vegas are often even more unclear as escorts are everywhere, they kind of know brothels are legal somewhere, it is Sin City, and etc. They are even more likely to depend on dancers and managers to make it clear prostitution is not legal, but more on that below...
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but in reality many people are fuzzy about it.
Now that aside, the fact is that offers of extras are common in Vegas. Every customer here knows it, and seemingly only the dancers are ever surprised by this which at some point has me shaking my head, but the second part of the answer is both sellers and buyers who suggest prostitution might occur, and who buy because of that, are in violation of the law. But it goes on because SCs owners profit from it, and so feel no dis-incentive to stop it.
But again if you asked the common person my guess is they'd agree; everyone from the club owner, dancer, and customer was acting illegally if an offer of prostitution did occur, and it should go down like so:
o The customer does not owe the club a fee to commit an illegal act (that is just part of the illegal act btw, paying for prostitution).
o The club owners and those involved including dancers should be charged with soliciting prostitution.
o The customer should be charged with soliciting prostitution.
Everyone loses. Alternatively if we don't like that outcome, if we prefer an alternative where prostitution is legal, then we can debate if it is acceptable for a business to imply a customer is going to receive sex, but once in the room where it will occur, not have sex, because:
A.) The seller knew all along that sex was not going to happen.
B.) The buyer didn't know that all along and really thought it was.
C.) The managers and seller doesn't want to disclose it or make it clear because the business makes the most profits by convincing the buyer to enter the private room then might threaten to rough him up if he doesn't pay.
Selling fantasy is absolutely cool, but it is simply UNTRUE to say that all customers are fully cognizant that is what is being sold is entirely fantasy, or that the business does not profit from that fact. And we as a society do have the right to say we see that fact, and it is fine, but the wool is not pulled over everyone's eyes.
The simple solution is just disclose it is in greater degree, but the business doesn't want that because it would cut into their profits. Also fine, but that is the conflict of interest, and the big white elephant in the room that people like to pretend doesn't exist.
bem401
10-17-2009, 11:26 AM
You have stated on more than one occasion that guys who spend money on dancers are losers and now you are arguing that they should be protected from themselves. Which is it?
I've never said that universally. I've just said I realized after awhile that paying people to keep me company doesn't work for me. I don't begrudge anyone the opportunity to do it and it doesn't mean I necessarily think those who do to be losers. As you've done before, you're taking things out of context, twisting them around, and presenting them in the most negative light possible.
Well see there, you just answered your own question...
I've never denied having different attitudes towards different types of customers. Your statement implied I felt the same way at the same time towards all customers, which is definitely not the case.
Good to see that you are paying attention BEM but typos are not the same thing as innuendo.
Of course they're not the same, but I didn't use innuendo and you didn't make typos.
Your statement used the word "exploit", not mine. How does that constitute innuendo on my part? I asked you to correct me if I took it out of context.
Typos are misspellings of words. You used the wrong words entirely.
bem401
10-17-2009, 11:36 AM
In your defense, you are tolerable as a bar regular. Some are wastes of space and should be left on the front lawn for heavy trash pickup day. Plus, she was hungry.
I can live with tolerable. I am pretty sure the girls with whom I have very little or no interaction feel that way.
bem401
10-17-2009, 12:08 PM
So about 20 minutes into my time here comes the marine and two dancers in the next booth over... fairly soon they are telling him no, we don't have sex in here... and it was $800 for both for them, plus bar tab, something like $1000 for the hour plus they told him he had to tip them and the waitress. At this point the reality starts sinking in and the marine's mood went from drunken "I'm going to get layed by two hot women guy to OMFG I'm going to be broke guy." He told them that was his entire paycheck, he didn't have that much... and I tuned the rest out...
He got what he deserved if he stayed there once he knew what was what. What newbie goes to a CR with two girls for a G on Day One? Especially if he's not loaded.
If he was allowed to believe something more was going to happen, he should have politely excused himself as soon as he knew the situation, paid the girls for the time they were there, and promptly left the club.
laurcon
10-17-2009, 12:54 PM
I am going to assume this is a joke. How many VIP rooms are entirely private? Are you honestly suggesting that SCs should now include an upgrade VIP room tax in the VIP price?
you make many valid points xdamage, thanks for taking the time to write all that. just to respond to this part though, i really wasn't joking. i haven't done any working-traveling so i don't really know how most places in the country operate. i'm kind of in a bubble here in manhattan. room fees are around $400 for the hour, and then $5-600 per entertainer. i thought this was common in vegas too. i can see how that would really only work in major cities. sorry, sometimes i don't think and can come across snotty. i'm not suggesting everywhere should charge anything like that.
yoda57us
10-17-2009, 12:54 PM
I guess I'm reluctant to knowingly allow myself to be exploited (your word)
That is innuendo BEM.
As for the typo vs. wrong word entirely observation you are absolutely right on that. I can't say I'm going to try and do better 'cause I really don't give enough of a damn to worry about it...
Earl_the_Pearl
10-17-2009, 02:19 PM
Do as they do in Newark and outlaw private dances as they are bad.
1) It might be time to come up with a new joke. You've worked this one to death.
It is not a joke it is the law.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-17-2009, 02:29 PM
but you didn't really deal with my point that if the women landed the room by promising something illegal, the buyer made a verbal contract to acquire said illegal services and therefore fair business practices are somewhat out-the-window. i feel like you're talking about regulating a black market.
and if the guy only thought he was going to get laid without any explicit promises from the dancers, then are you saying he didn't know that paying for sex is illegal? he thought you could legally have sex with a prostitute in a VIP booth? right. ::)
That is an easy one; it is an unenforceable contract in the eyes of the law. Of course SC are extra legal in many ways and the PL will usually be strong armed into paying.
Maybe that is why all private dances must be paid for upfront in New Jersey bars. The NJ PLs don't take to being strong armed well.
mediocrity
10-17-2009, 02:54 PM
It is not a joke it is the law.
You don't have to tell us every other post: we get it.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-17-2009, 03:46 PM
You don't have to tell us every other post: we get it.
I only mention it when complaints are raised about how dancers are treated in VIP. It is Newark's solution.
Elvia
10-17-2009, 03:50 PM
^^^ Even though how guys treat dancers has little to nothing to do with private dances. There are douchebags in stage only clubs as well.
BTW- do you honestly think lapdances are "wrong?" And if so, why? Or is this indeed just a tired old joke?
Earl_the_Pearl
10-17-2009, 03:58 PM
BTW- do you honestly think lapdances are "wrong?" And if so, why? Or is this indeed just a tired old joke?
They are the cause of misunderstandings that lead too much of the trouble one finds in SC.
bem401
10-17-2009, 04:13 PM
They are the cause of misunderstandings that lead too much of the trouble one finds in SC.
Actually I'd say that alcohol is the cause of 95%+ of the problems that occur in the clubs.
Elvia
10-17-2009, 04:16 PM
well, you have to remember that Earl thinks it's too much for guys to be able to count in a club.
Earl_the_Pearl
10-17-2009, 04:21 PM
Actually I'd say that alcohol is the cause of 95%+ of the problems that occur in the clubs.
The drunk guy that thinks he is going to get some and doesn't is more likely to cause trouble then the drunk guy that gets some. A guy getting a BJ usually doesn't cause trouble.
Elvia
10-17-2009, 04:22 PM
what kind of idiot thinks a $20 lap dance is going to result in a BJ?
Oh yeah. One that can't even count.
bem401
10-17-2009, 04:24 PM
what kind of idiot thinks a $20 lap dance is going to result in a BJ?
Oh yeah. One that can't even count.
or the same type of guy who is there to have "an organism".
princessjas
10-17-2009, 04:27 PM
or the same type of guy who is there to have "an organism".
:rotfl: I keep imagining some guy in the club having an Alien-like scene. Truly having "an organism."
bem401
10-17-2009, 04:57 PM
The drunk guy that thinks he is going to get some and doesn't is more likely to cause trouble then the drunk guy that gets some. A guy getting a BJ usually doesn't cause trouble.
So the problem isn't the drunk guys, its that there aren't enough girls giving them head?
Good luck justifying that one.
Golden_Rule
10-17-2009, 08:24 PM
Yep. You did. Granted, you said it in a way that would make it easy for you to backpedal, but you still said it.
Why, because you said so?
When did God die and leave you the keys to heaven? :)
Will we finally see some examples of people "on these very pages" who are not treating others the way they want to be treated, or will GR continue to douche his way around providing them? Tune in next week to find out.
Not very imaginative. Get some new insults please. :)
I've been reading these pages for years. If you've been reading them too you've seen them. Start in Hustle Hut. Then look for others where dancers have spoken of how they have hit guys with shoes, spilled drinks, etc. You'll see some of the same names as the posts complaining about the clubs, the customers, etc.
You have a point to make fine. I could write some lovely posts picking your onboard personality apart. Do I do it, or do I just stick the ideas you present?
Really... {sheesh}
We've circled around this long enough. If you have nothing constructive to add why not just agree that we don't agree and leave it at that.
soslow2
10-17-2009, 08:37 PM
Guys........I think it should be done this way....and ONLY this way. Save your money until it reaches a certain level which is direct proportion to your desires. To understand what that level needs to be you 1st need to know what the ladies need in order to accomodate some OR all of those desires. Easy enough.......RESPECT & CONSIDERATION also go hand-n-hand with what these ladies need and deserve. ,,,,, Don't venture out if you're not ready.....After all we've all heard this one 'If ya want to dance ...ya got to pay the fidler'.....
Oh and by the way gentlemen................this economy had hurt everyone one......which includes these Gals too.