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xdamage
11-09-2009, 07:39 PM
And, w/r/t your comment about cosmetic surgery:
Using the term "flaw" w/r/t cosmetic surgery kind of bums me out (but I know I'm fighting a loosing battle).
Cosmetic surgery doesn't correct flaws- it changes a certain aspect that someone was uncomfortable with. I don't consider a hooked nose, small boobs, a buddah belly to be "flaws" per say. Granted, they don't fall in the lines of ideal beauty, but they aren't flaws. And no, I'm not a plastic-surgery-hater.


I understand the popular think of today and I am fine with plastic surgery, but let's take our 21st century mind and put it aside.

Imagine you lived in 1700, or a 3rd world village, and say you saw someone with a crooked nose, crooked teeth, while you yourself had perfect teeth, skin, hair, symmetry, and because of all of that, had a vast choice of partners...

BTW it turns out when you actually do studies we find that across all societies there are factors that people consider attractive vs unattractive. It is not just some social construct. Matters like symmetry, proportion, clear eyes, clear skin, shiny hair, lack of physical deformity, normal stature (for your respective group), etc., do matter a lot. They are probably indicators of healthy genes and good survivability that our brains are adept at noting quickly.

But anyway so ... In a pre-modern society it would be left up to everyone else to decide who wants to mate with the person with crooked teeth, nose, etc. They would decide whether or not it pleased them and act on it, regardless of any euphemistic thinking we have. And that would be life. And if that ended up lowering their odds of breeding, and passing on those traits, then evolution would have done what it does. Weeded out traits that others decide are undesirable, using whatever criteria they want.

And if we saw animals rejecting each other over visible matters, we'd simply chalk it up to Okay, that is their nature!

Plastic surgery alters that. I am not really opposed, but my point was subtle... which is that the social training we apply to people, like plastic surgery, does not alter their fundamental nature. That negative traits are still being passed on and that might have deeper negative implications then we realize yet, but will in time.

Actually my point was far more subtle then that and controversial, which is that women have been helping to shape male behavior all along, at least as much as males have been shaping male behavior, by who they choose to mate with. That immediately raises a lot of OMFGs in a society that has been teaching that men are all bad, women all good, though it puts women back on equal terms with males in terms of shaping societies, but it also means they are equally responsible for the proliferation of violence (or nearly so sans rapes and forced sex) which is never going to be a popular view is it?

Even if it was true, why would anyone accept that if we have children with a person who shows violent traits from youth, chances are they will pass that on even if we socially mask it later in life (i.e., if someone has a heart defect, or crooked teeth, etc., those traits will be often be passed on even if we mask them in life). Like plastic surgery, we will have sex with whoever seems okay to us in appearance and behavior in the moment. That they are actually not so attractive or not so nice... well, that is a matter for our offspring and their generation.

But that controversial view would mean some fairly dramatic and difficult implications that our society is not yet ready to consider, even if true.



Furthermore, w/r/t breeding & plastic surgery, it's a slippery slope from there to eugenics. From there, complaints could be raised about diabetics being allowed to breed (because they have to take meds which mask their true self), etc.


Agreed, but my point was subtle and admittedly hopeless.



So, in studies boys (aged 8-12) do better at spatial rotation tasks than do girls. It's a task where they are shown a multi block formation and asked what it would look like if it rotated one way or the other in space (think Tetris in 3D). Small differences, but boys generally score better than girls.

This leads some sociologists/evolutionary psychologists to believe that differences in ability are due more to differences in socialization than due to faint evolutionary traces of the hunters vs. gatherers theory. (e.g. Girls are given dolls, boys are given blocks)


Could be. That is why we need the studies. But also we need the whole truth. Partial truths are misleading. Like if it turns out males generalize that better in brand new situations with brand new shapes, and that is a survival matter where one doesn't have 2 weeks to get caught up, that is a still may be a significant difference.




Uh, the differences in muscular composition are more due to testosterone than due to evolution.

Sounds like double talk since the differences in testosterone are due to differences in evolution.l

mvivian
11-09-2009, 08:02 PM
That immediately raises a lot of OMFGs in a society that has been teaching that men are all bad, women all good

I hate that shit. (And, for better or worse, violent crimes perpetrated by women are on a rise meaning that violent crimes will no longer be the sole domain of dudes).


Sounds like double talk since the differences in testosterone are due to differences in evolution.l
Ah. You say double talk, I say chicken v. egg.

lopaw
11-09-2009, 09:16 PM
i grew up with lots of girls saying they wanted to be a marine biologist, none of them actually did it. i'm sure there was lots of math and i'm sure it was hard. that's not at all what i meant by saying it was "girly". only that it is a life science and not a physical science, and physical science seems to be what you're talking about where women are lacking technical expertise. :-[


When I was growing up I also was surrounded by fellow female students that wanted to be teachers & nurses and the like. Those paths were definitely not for me, as my favorite hobby after school was to take apart my parent's VCR and alarm clocks to see how they worked, and then try to put them back together (I never was quite successful).

I wound up an electrical engineer, surrounded by socially challenged male colleagues (that tag along with me to stripclubs in a desperate attempt to connect with women). I wish more women were in my field. I long for the day that a hot, intelligent, very technical young lady will join our ranks ( hint hint laurcon).

Just say the word and I will be happy to mentor you ;)

xdamage
11-09-2009, 09:19 PM
I hate that shit. (And, for better or worse, violent crimes perpetrated by women are on a rise meaning that violent crimes will no longer be the sole domain of dudes).

It goes hand in hand with equalizing the roles. Just the problem with aggression is it means we all have to go on in an arms race, backing aggressive/strong mates and encouraging our children to be so because being a pacifist really only works if everyone agrees. All it takes is one cheater to ruin the agreement. And even apparently pacifists like the Ammish near me, only are able to do so because they are protected by an entire society of non pacifists, an expensive LE system, and the greatest military force on the planet, which makes their microcosm of pacifism possible. Take that away and they'd have aggressors gladly taking their lands and resources forcing them to fight or lose it all.

FBR
11-09-2009, 09:27 PM
I wound up an electrical engineer, surrounded by socially challenged male colleagues (that tag along with me to stripclubs in a desperate attempt to connect with women). I wish more women were in my field. I long for the day that a hot, intelligent, very technical young lady will join our ranks ( hint hint laurcon).

Just say the word and I will be happy to mentor you ;)

Mentor me too. What is your preferred brand of PLC? If you say Allen-Bradley I will suck on your toes }:D

FBR

FBR
11-09-2009, 09:28 PM
It goes hand in hand with equalizing the roles. Just the problem with aggression is it means we all have to go on in an arms race, backing aggressive/strong mates and encouraging our children to be so because being a pacifist really only works if everyone agrees. All it takes is one cheater to ruin the agreement. And even apparently pacifists like the Ammish near me, only are able to do so because they are protected by an entire society of non pacifists, an expensive LE system, and the greatest military force on the planet, which makes their microcosm of pacifism possible. Take that away and they'd have aggressors gladly taking their lands and resources forcing them to fight or lose it all.

You are too serious about this. How's the Porsche?

FBR

xdamage
11-09-2009, 09:32 PM
I wound up an electrical engineer, surrounded by socially challenged male colleagues (that tag along with me to stripclubs in a desperate attempt to connect with women). I wish more women were in my field. I long for the day that a hot, intelligent, very technical young lady will join our ranks ( hint hint laurcon).

That would be cool if more women would. The EEs I've worked with were pretty stressed, but were payed well if they could cut it. The stress was just technical stress, some tough problems to solve under tight deadlines, and the usual company politics, nothing specific to one's sex. An experienced EE can go far. But yes I would say the EEs I've known tended to be socially challenged ;) It seemingly goes hand in hand with some lines of work that require a high level of mental abstraction to succeed at. That abstraction seems to often be in conflict with everyday partner seeking behaviors that people think of as "normal".

xdamage
11-09-2009, 09:38 PM
You are too serious about this. How's the Porsche?

FBR

Gets my adrenaline pumping as much as the day I took it home 1.5 years ago ;D Was worth saving 15 some years for, but with winter coming it is about to be locked away. Back to the good old 200K+ miles dented beater for the winter. Hey, it's boring but stress free. Additional dents will just add to the beater's character. :P

lopaw
11-09-2009, 09:41 PM
Mentor me too. What is your preferred brand of PLC? If you say Allen-Bradley I will suck on your toes }:D

FBR

LOL FBR!

Actually, the only Allen-Bradley items I've ever really dealt with over the years were fixed carbon based resistors that we used to use in our PCB circuits. Nowadays, we use thin film and resistive etched circuits due to size and heat limitations.

I rarely used PLC's in my type of hardware builds. My work is all manual high frequency testing for spacecraft applications (OK...I'm probably losing most everyone out of boredom now except for the diehard tech-geeks like myself). My day is typically spent in a laboratory working under a microscope (without the aid of automated testing) surrounded by boy-geeks.

No wonder I spend so much time in stripclubs! ;D

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-09-2009, 09:55 PM
I come from a long line of women doctors, engineers, and other intellectuals and professionals. So my eyes glaze over when I read about all of this inequality shit. It just hasn't applied to me. Then again, I come from a country often considered far inferior to the US. Yet, I've never EVER been told I couldn't do exactly the same kind of work as a man for the same pay.

FBR
11-09-2009, 10:02 PM
LOL FBR!

Actually, the only Allen-Bradley items I've ever really dealt with over the years were fixed carbon based resistors that we used to use in our PCB circuits. Nowadays, we use thin film and resistive etched circuits due to size and heat limitations.

I rarely used PLC's in my type of hardware builds. My work is all manual high frequency testing for spacecraft applications (OK...I'm probably losing most everyone out of boredom now except for the diehard tech-geeks like myself). My day is typically spent in a laboratory working under a microscope (without the aid of automated testing) surrounded by boy-geeks.

No wonder I spend so much time in stripclubs! ;D

You have no idea the boner you have given me. I will give you a toe suck for free }:D

LOL

FBR

FBR
11-09-2009, 10:15 PM
Gets my adrenaline pumping as much as the day I took it home 1.5 years ago ;D Was worth saving 15 some years for, but with winter coming it is about to be locked away. Back to the good old 200K+ miles dented beater for the winter. Hey, it's boring but stress free. Additional dents will just add to the beater's character. :P X, smart to keep that awesome ride in the garage for the winter. I was just curious as I know it was a purchase you really thought long and hard about. I am stuck driving the Escalade year round. Good think it is 4wd.

FBR

FBR
11-09-2009, 10:17 PM
I come from a long line of women doctors, engineers, and other intellectuals and professionals. So my eyes glaze over when I read about all of this inequality shit. It just hasn't applied to me. Then again, I come from a country often considered far inferior to the US. Yet, I've never EVER been told I couldn't do exactly the same kind of work as a man for the same pay. If you escaped tyranny in your home country, my vote is you should earn more.

FBR

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-09-2009, 10:23 PM
That really makes no sense FBR. So you're saying that Cuban refugees have some right to earn more than native Americans because they escaped a fascist regime?

FBR
11-09-2009, 11:05 PM
That really makes no sense FBR. So you're saying that Cuban refugees have some right to earn more than native Americans because they escaped a fascist regime?I didn't say anything about rights. I'm just saying that if asked I wouldn't have a problem with paying you more per hour than me for the same work considering that you escaped with barely your life. I was blessed to be born in the United States and therefore have no idea what it was like to escape that type of situation. And all Americans appreciate that courage.

FBR

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-09-2009, 11:44 PM
I didn't say anything about rights. I'm just saying that if asked I wouldn't have a problem with paying you more per hour than me for the same work considering that you escaped with barely your life.
FBR

That's cool, and I will accept the higher wage on the basis of pure greed, but I wouldn't say I escaped with barely my life. In fact, I never suffered nor did my family. Although the standard of living is much better here, the quality of life is equivalent. ....

Phil-W
11-10-2009, 10:30 AM
....and this is what i was getting at with the "stereotype" thing. i understand what the results say, but the reasons why are not so clear cut. just like i was saying about womens lower wages being related not to performace differences, but differences in experience and expected return on investment in human capital, due to maternity. so therefore, i find it irresponsible to merely note differences without exploring the contributing factors.

Oh sure - it's impossible to reproduce a complex argument in a few short paragraphs. Franky, I think prejudice against women is another factor in why they don't do so well in business, but how you separate that from genuine performance issues has baffled wiser minds than mine.


sorry that i don't have any real research to back up what i'm saying right now, esp with women in biology. its so fustrating not having the access to papers and studies like i used to in college! :-[

Well there's lies, damned lies and research papers. You could probably find papers supporting most POV's about this argument. We'd have to be angels to write a totally objective paper free from bias.

I think you'd find general agreement that women don't do as well in business, but that's down to a huge variety of factors including gender specific differences, prejudice, the effects of maternity, etc. The weighting you'd have to give those factors is unfortunately a matter of personal opinion.

Phil.

xdamage
11-10-2009, 02:31 PM
X, smart to keep that awesome ride in the garage for the winter. I was just curious as I know it was a purchase you really thought long and hard about. I am stuck driving the Escalade year round. Good think it is 4wd.

FBR

FBR, your Escalade probably does well in the winter drive wise, but it is also by no means a cheap vehicle (as you know). If it was mine I'd seriously cringe at the thought of driving it around here in the winter.

My OLD beater is a POS and nothing to look at, but that is also the benefit. The main thing is I don't care if the salt and gravel destroy the paint, or if a fender bender means a new dent.

Can't say I would feel the same about having an Escalade like yours be so abused. Escalade is the kind of car I'd tend to want to keep waxed, clean, and garaged when not driving it. I know, they are meant to be used as daily drivers but they seem a bit too nice to me not to treat special.