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kittygirl
11-07-2009, 04:00 AM
Sociobiology is not a science but a series of theories concocted primarily by men.

I doubt it will pick up very much as younger men are being raised with different attitudes.

It's mostly a middle-aged man's game.

Lorena Bobbitt comes to mind when you say men have an advantage. We're just socialized not to use ours.

One good night's sleep, a pissed off woman and a knife is the end of a bad man's party.

Back to the topic, please take your sexist theories of genetic predisposition somewhere else. You only see things the way you want to much like a human eye cannot see everything because it is guided by a human.

I would love to see you say this same bs to the victim or her family.

You might get your ass kicked.

kittygirl
11-09-2009, 05:01 AM
Just one more thing that keeps being said about "bigger, more agressive males".

They aren't your typical rapists.

All mine were short, insecure, asswipes who felt better dominating anyone because they are losers. Even the taller one was jealous that I went to a good school - just insecure.

I have found bigger, more confident men to be very gentle, in fact, just the opposite of your theory.

xdamage
11-09-2009, 10:12 AM
Sociobiology is not a science but a series of theories concocted primarily by men.

I'm not going to waste time on this. It is imperfect as is History, Economics, Psychology, but that doesn't mean it is black or white, throw it all out because our understanding of ourselves is constantly being revised.

It was also a theory that we have no human nature, that we are born with blank slates for brains, and everything is put there by "society". A lot of people bought into that theory without asking for proof. They ask for proof and call "theory" when challenged.

In any case I was responding to the concept of aggression. I don't really care if it pisses you off that there are people out there working on sociobiology. I don't care anymore then I cared that those working on evolution theory or genetics pissed off the religious, or racists by showing more genetic similarity then dissimilarity, or anyone else.

Strong emotions do not equal facts/truth. It can just as often be that people feel things strongly for the wrong reasons. Strong emotions, including your own, are also things men feel... but strong emotions doesn't necessarily lead to positive outcomes. I'm interested in the science and how it plays out... not your strong feelings on the matter.

kittygirl
11-10-2009, 01:18 AM
No offense, but you sound like a moron.
Keep believing this bullshit and I still feel sorry for your family because it makes no sense, other than a pitiful man vouching for himself.

kittygirl
11-10-2009, 01:34 AM
In fact, quote me one scientific journal that believes in this shit (i.e. none).

I'm sorry you feel so pathetic you make up excuses for rejects. Sorry for your daughter too.

Let me guess you're short and a beta male.

In the ape comunity, the losers rape just like I theorized. I hope you grow taller and don't have a Napoleonic complex.

kittygirl
11-10-2009, 01:52 AM
In my wasted education, I studied Anthropology enough. Nothing you say is fact, just self-help.

Let me guess you are short and want to believe you have some pathetic power, but reality says men without the Napoleon complex don't have the same disadvantages you claim to have.

Tall big men are winners without aggression.

Just my two cents.

Now ask real women about your beta theories.

Among apes, the only ones that rape are the underdeveloped betas. Same in humans.

Good luck....

xdamage
11-10-2009, 06:26 AM
Uhm, no, quite tall.

Your little bit of study of anthropology while getting H&E degree is fine, but there are other writers today who've spent far more time then you have studying and researching, whose books on Evolutionary Psychology and Socio-Biology are far more interesting to read, and far less emotional, then you're spewing angry hate because I disagree with you.

That they are challenging what is 50+ year old ideology that you believe strongly is not super surprising. That people want a simple all nature, or all nurture explanation to all human behavior appeals to our simple minds. And it is a great ideology for those looking to selectively choose responsibility.

I've worked with criminals who particularly loved it as it made the perfect excuse for bad behavior. "Sorry, not my fault really, society shaped me to be this way".

See it turns out that if people are looking to blame their behavior on something, they are quite capable of blaming it on gods, devils, hormones, evolution, or society. They still only claim their accomplishments as their own, and find some way to blame their failures on forces outside of their control.

It's why Sociobiology doesn't raise any twinges of fear that the findings will be mis-used as it does in many. Because yes, some will abuse the findings to believe what they want. They do that anyway, no matter what. It's the worst possible reason to keep people in the dark.

Look, you probably don't remember how strongly people use to teach each other BS about their human nature when it came to sex. The idea that we are animals, that our drive to have sex is a purely normal evolved instinct, that women also enjoy it because it is their animal nature to do so, had people as pissed off as you are over Sociobiology. They feared others might use it as an excuse to act badly, to have sex without restraint, to act irresponsibly.

And guess what? They were wrong. We still expect people to act responsibly. And some still act irresponsibly regardless of the truth or not.

Anyway as I said, I really don't care about your hate spewing, threats of violence, yelling, or anything else that your doing. I do care that our society peels back at the truth of who/what we really are. And if it is found that, like animals, we people have innate natures that push the statistics into patterns, that the sexes tend to fall into roles because their natures statistically are different, fine. Nothing will change. We will still acknowledge exceptions. Still hold people responsible for their actions. Still require fair treatment regardless of sex. We can still teach people to break the patterns if people want that.

Socio-biology still has a long way to go, but blaming all human behavior on "society" is also nothing but a theory, a simplistic one, and a circular explanation at best that doesn't actually explain anything.

Society is just us people. There is nobody else here unless you start believing in magic conspiracy theories guiding everyone's hand. We people make societies, and the patterns we see reflect truths about our nature, just like animal packs and groups reflect things about animal nature. That the truths about animals (and people) is not all Disney Happy Happy I don't care about. Facing our negative innate traits is difficult, but clearly our euphemistic views of our own nature hasn't stopped bad behavior. I don't fear a truthful view being any worse.

Vamp
11-10-2009, 07:10 AM
FWIW, men and women are statistically different in various visible ways (e.g., height, physical strength), and now evolutionary psychologists debate in behavioral ways as well. We see statistical behavioral differences in animals and don't blame this on society, but we have a hard time dealing with the notion of pre-disposition in humans since most people's brains hear "so you are making an excuse for bad behavior". It is difficult to step back from the specifics, not be involved, and objectively look at it all without judging the right or wrong. And it is difficult to accept the implications that we're pre-disposed to behave differently since that can lead to an assumption that it is arguing for inequality (It's not but people can see the possible connection and reasonably fear that conclusion).

But... it is beyond me to second guess all of history or evolution. I wasn't there. I wasn't born with everyone else's brain before me, their exact bodies, exact life, exact society. It seems it requires a tremendous assumption (even ego?) to think I'd do better then the billions before me who contributed to what exists now. But I'll say this. Even a Hitler doesn't come into power without tens of millions of others in society playing a part. Everyone has a part in what is happening now, and all those people before me had a part in what lead up to today.

But people only want to own the good, not the bad parts of their contributions - a general human flaw as deep seated as our tendency to abuse our power.

That said, women are statistically physically weaker. Male strength and aggression is a feature that can work for or against. Like all power it is useful when it serves and evil when used against us. Some people like having a big aggressive dog to feel safe; but not the negatives of a big aggressive dog attacking someone that the dog shouldn't. That's understandable but I am not sure it is possible. We wish the dog and us humans were always 100% in control, but we know that they are not. That as long as there are big dogs around, there is an increased risk of getting bitten by a big dog. We don't like to accept that we can't have both, that the risk of aggression comes hand in hand with the benefits, and we simply cannot have it both ways. It is impossible and yet another human flaw to believe we entirely can. Maybe sometimes, but it will happen that sometimes big dogs will turn on us.

I don't believe people are capable of not abusing power completely; checks and balances are needed, so is constant re-training because people are constantly dieing and new people have to learn it all over again. Even so apparently many people fail and among men, a percentage end up incarcerated. In fact men are incarcerated 11x as often as women in this country, and often for much more violent reasons.

I don't believe people are inherently good (or bad). I see them as survivors, animals, and through a lot of social training we can shape ruthless survival instincts.

The statistical evidence is that men are far more likely to intitiate violence then women. I just can't avoid that evidence, but that also implies there is a genetic under-pinning behind it. That is not an excuse to behave badly, but a facing of reality, even if it is not Disney friendly. We are apparently the fighters of the species, and the more likely abusers, but that said...

It is beyond me to judge all of history. I fear that the reality is that pattern cannot ever end. That the only way it could end is for society to stop breeding bigger more aggressive males, and we won't do that because even if we knew how to do it, we like having bigger aggressive males around when the benefit us. And unless every society world-wide would do it, another society would have an advantage if the are bigger, stronger, more aggressive.

Of course my views fly against popular think of the moment, that men are bad, women good, and I know that. But I do think my view will eventually become the popular view as it becomes harder for society to ignore the sociobological research and data.

Basically yep, men are far more likely to be violent. Sadly, we also benefit from it too because they protect us from our neighbors as well. Violence cuts both ways and always will.


I am going to keep repeating the following quote from another thread until it sinks into your head

"These long chemical equations might make some neanderthal who acts like an ape feel better about doing so but for anyone else they have no use.

But as Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

You repeatedly make statements that defend barbaric behaviour by men. It is mind boggling to me that someone who claims to have a daughter could say such things anywhere.

By your logic, if all men are ruled by their genetics and hormones, they cant control themselves, maybe they should all be in cages like the animals they are. We control animals. If an animal draws blood of a human we kill it. By your logic we should do that with men as well. After all they are slaves to their animal genetic nature and apparently cant help it.

Elvia
11-10-2009, 12:00 PM
But as Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"


I love this quote. I'm making it my new siggy.

xdamage
11-10-2009, 06:35 PM
"These long chemical equations might make some neanderthal who acts like an ape feel better about doing so but for anyone else they have no use.

But as Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

You repeatedly make statements that defend barbaric behaviour by men. It is mind boggling to me that someone who claims to have a daughter could say such things anywhere.

By your logic, if all men are ruled by their genetics and hormones, they cant control themselves, maybe they should all be in cages like the animals they are. We control animals. If an animal draws blood of a human we kill it. By your logic we should do that with men as well. After all they are slaves to their animal genetic nature and apparently cant help it.

No, this is a fundamental flaw in your comprehension. I made no such statement. Unfortunately too many authors have also had to say the same thing. Your brain is hearing what you want to hear and it is because you can't conceive of what we are actually saying, but I will try again even though it is pointless. I will try using analogy you might relate to. Probably not.

At one point in time (even now) there were a lot of people running around thinking sex is sick, dirty, wicked.

There were people trying to say look, sex is a natural instinct. It evolved, it serves a survival purpose, and both sexes contributed to the evolution of sexual urges.

Then people like yourself, would say, OMG you're just trying to justify having indiscriminate sex with anyone and passing on STDs and having unlimited children!

And they would say, you're brain just added that, and your emotionalizing it because you have a fundamental misunderstanding to begin with and an agenda. You're not actually interested in the truth.

Then people like yourself would get all huffy and mis-direct and try to put words in their mouths that they did not say.

And they would go on to prove that yep, it is a normal instinctive function, but they did not say that means people should be irresponsible, or act on their impulses.

And the benefit of facing the truth is this:

First, that people aren't walking around feeling angst over every normal human feeling they have. They are not having to feel dirty, or evil because they think of sex, even sex with people who they shouldn't have it with, but a fantasy thought may roll through their head.

Second, that the truth opens the door to the rest of the discussion about what is behind our sexual urges with the mis-information out of the way.

So I'll say it again. Don't put your words or limited thinking into my mouth. I am interested in the truth of human nature, even the not so happy happy joy joy parts. If that scares the hell out of you that is fine. It scared the hell out of people that some wanted to look at sex straight up and see it for what it is, a normal instinctive drive.

The interest in the knowledge has nothing to do with your agenda, nor is there an agenda to excuse bad behavior. It is absolutely not true and no matter how much insist it must be true or fear it is true, that is a limitation of your thinking, not mine or others who want the truth about human nature.

xdamage
11-10-2009, 06:55 PM
p.s., I'll say it again too... having worked many years with criminals, they all found a way to twist the message "society made me do it" into an excuse for why they committed the crimes they did. If you're really terrified of the truth of human nature being used as an excuse for bad behavior, the mantra that everything is due to society has already been abused endlessly as that excuse. It's a total red-herring to fear exploring the evolutionary angle because some might use it as an excuse for bad behavior. That is going to happen no matter whether we learn the truth about ourselves or not.

xdamage
11-10-2009, 08:10 PM
"These long chemical equations might make some neanderthal who acts like an ape feel better about doing so but for anyone else they have no use.

But as Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"


This sounds like another version of "Math is Hard" - Barbie.

I'm guessing the scientists actually do feel they are rising above by learning about all those amazing things.

And if you ever wanted to add to a stereotype of why men and women are not entering hard sciences equivalently, you just did a most fantastic job by dimissing the multi-milleniums of work of others and suggesting that patting oneself on the back and telling oneself how special one is is greater then all of the efforts of those before them.

Like maybe those people actually were pretty amazing people and in addition they contribute something to science. They are really not mutually exclusive you know?

But I suppose that work is threatening if it makes someone feel not-very-smart in light of the brilliant contributions others have made to human knowledge.

Like maybe those people had rich deep lives, big hearts, even if they were not showy about, even if they were not actors in Hollywood films speaking lines of writers of screenplays, it could well be they had passions you will never know, and they actually were involved with life and left something behind for the next generation to build on.

Vamp
11-10-2009, 08:34 PM
This sounds like another version of "Math is Hard" - Barbie.

I'm guessing the scientists actually do feel they are rising above by learning about all those amazing things.

And if you ever wanted to add to a stereotype of why men and women are not entering hard sciences equivalently, you just did a most fantastic job by dimissing the multi-milleniums of work of others and suggesting that patting oneself on the back and telling oneself how special one is is greater then all of the efforts of those before them.

Like maybe those people actually were pretty amazing people and in addition they contribute something to science. They are really not mutually exclusive you know?

But I suppose that work is threatening if it makes someone feel not-very-smart in light of the brilliant contributions others have made to human knowledge.

Like maybe those people had rich deep lives, big hearts, even if they were not showy about, even if they were not actors in Hollywood films speaking lines of writers of screenplays, it could well be they had passions you will never know, and they actually were involved with life and left something behind for the next generation to build on.


I am not denigrating science in any way shape or form. I am denigrating your logic.

You act as if one excuse is more valid then another. NO excuse for violence is valid. I don't care if you have been beaten all your life, if your parents were primates, you have no job, and you are genderless. This is the problem. We have too many damn excuses for violence.

I did not even disagree with you. Humans DO have an intrinsic nature. By saying we are put on this earth to rise above that nature is not a simplistic answer. The process itself is a matter of self realization. If a person can not grasp that fact, acts like a violent animal, they will be locked away in a cage or worse.

You come on a forum of women excepting them to acknowledge your point of view when you refuse to understand them or their experiences. Talk about dismissive.

erotictonic
11-10-2009, 10:16 PM
You're not actually interested in the truth.



Bingo. I have learned that arguing on the net is meaningless because:

1) People can't decipher and understand the message (no matter how clear you think you made it), or they won't, depending on how long your posting is, and they will answer your posts with very limited knowledge of what you actually said
2) Not everyone is good at explaining what they mean all the time
3) People constantly draw facetious conclusions and make assumptions
4) People just want to be heard; no, they are not interested in the real truth
5) People are generally pretty close-minded

In general, of course.

worldfamoustoddyepthatguy
11-10-2009, 10:58 PM
I love this quote. I'm making it my new siggy.


This might sound really insulting but I will say it anyway.

This statement by katherine hephurn is psycho and actually one of the main problems suffered in the human experience these days. Nature is not something we have been put here to rise above. That is a statement devised to support dominance over what we are not supposed to control, and without nature in its habitat man would not amount to much. Ofcourse we could grow everything with hydroponics indoors but that would be incredibly massive contruction efforts all over the world and without all of the greenery we would not be able to breathe or have any water to drink or the beauty of the night sky or dusk and dawn. We would not have Aspen trees in Colorado or the Rocky mountains, sandy beaches or Moab Utah, snowy christmas mornings, or rainy springtime showers, the natural beauty of a newborn child, or how sexy a woman is right after a shower or only washing her face, and as all strippers should know these next few

the shape of a great buttocks
great calves,'
great natural breasts,
beautiful blonde, auburn, brown, black, red hair
all the colors of eyes

You would not have the first fresh air you smell after you have cleared a cow pasture smelling of dung, you would not even be able to smell the sex you just had.
You would not have fall foliage, nor would you have spring flowers, you would not have hot and cold days you would only have one temp.
Think you might miss those first football weather days or maybe the first frost or even the first day the temp breaks seventy after a long winter?

All of your clothing would be either polyester or leather or plastic.

where the heck would beer and liquor come from if nature could not provide it and everyone would only eat meat.

Elvia
11-10-2009, 11:03 PM
^^^ you're taking it way too literally. ::)

It is not meant to suggest that everything that is natural is bad, it is meant to suggest that not everything that is "natural" is good and right. The human experience is about rising above mere animalistic urges, something that some men here with all their lecturing about neanderthal behavior seem to be all too happy to overlook (and no, I'm not talking about you, xdamdage, you seem to understand that just because there might be something "natural"about an urge or inclination, it doesn't mean it's acceptable or desirable).

xdamage
11-11-2009, 02:10 AM
You act as if one excuse is more valid then another. NO excuse for violence is valid. I don't care if you have been beaten all your life, if your parents were primates, you have no job, and you are genderless. This is the problem. We have too many damn excuses for violence.


You keep hearing "excuse" or trying to insist others are looking for an excuse, but I guess that is to be expected.

Let me answer you like this:

When people commit crimes we lock them up so they can't do it again, and to set an example for others, but we also don't completely give up hope that there is no chance of rehabilitating them, or preventing the crimes in the future.

When I worked with criminals it comes down to this -

Those working with them end up having to both despise the crime, and yet still treat them like people with some hope of rehabilitation.

The reason we as a society don't entirely give up on our criminals is complex, but a lot of it comes down to we all know one day it might be someone we know, or even ourselves behind bars. Unlikely, but not impossible.

Part of the reason we don't entirely give up on people is that we all intuitively know that on some level we really don't know to what degree humans are affected by their society, by their hormones, by their nature.

We do know that people do infact make excuses for their outcomes in life constantly when it suits them and if you read here or anywhere, people are constantly blaming their failings on some factor they feel is out of their control. Someone else, something else, but themselves.

And we know that there is a fundamental problem, because if we all have free will and complete control in every situation, then nobody should have an excuse for anything ever. But we don't like that because we all want the option to blame our own failings on our environment, our hormones, others around us, or something when it suits us. And we like to believe others have complete control (i.e. those we perceive as doing us wrong) but not us (i.e., if we do others wrong we hope for some degree of mercy due to conditions we couldn't control). Basic human nature.

There are different people who play different roles in a crime. The victim, the criminal, those immediately effected (i.e., the families), and the society as a whole that must react.

Each has a different PoV with the victim's being the strongest and saddest, the criminals always have excuses, and the society being the most concerned about long term trends and how to cope with them, because if the trends aren't corrected, then we know there will be more victims tomorrow.

We know that punishing today's criminal does not and has not stopped all future crime, and so as a society we can still try to change the conditions that lead to crime. That or we have to believe it is hopeless and criminals are just bad people and there is nothing we can do to decrease future crimes, which is truly hopeless.

What your wrong about is this. That doesn't make me dismissive because my brain doesn't see things from only one single PoV (the victim) to the exclusion of all else.

This doesn't make me dismissive because my brain doesnt shut out all other PoV but the victim's, though arguably it does dull the intensity of that, and so there you have a point. And your right that does seem insensitive. And you could even be right that even the Lounge here really is just an extension of a support forum that wants support first, and the matter I'm discussing simply is too difficult for this forum to assimilate. That may well be, and I apologize for that. Others will carry on that discussion regardless of whether it is tolerated here, but you should at least consider this:

It means that the matter of violence (and free will, and choice, and what is society vs free will, and what is nature vs free will) is not a simplistic black or white matter in my head even if it is one in your head.

We're not actually here helping the victim. You are here for yourself. I'm here for myself. Nothing we say here actually helps her. This is ultimately about us and what is good for us.

I find it is actually useful to cope with the shock of crime by also holding multiple PoV as it dulls the intensity (and strong emotions) of holding just the PoV of the victim.

For someone recently a victim, it works better to focus on their hurt and only their hurt without needing to feel even the slightest bit of concern over the criminal. I get that.

I was wrong though and agree. This isn't the forum for other PoVs; there are obviously too many people here who are victims. I apologize and back down. Sorry.

xdamage
11-11-2009, 02:45 AM
(and no, I'm not talking about you, xdamdage, you seem to understand that just because there might be something "natural"about an urge or inclination, it doesn't mean it's acceptable or desirable).

Sure, well intellect changes everything.

Understanding what instincts we have that evolved means that I don't walk around feeling bad about every random thought that rolls through my head. I don't think there is a devil or demon pulling my puppet strings every time an animal thought rolls through my head that I wouldn't act on. I don't sit around angsting that there is something wrong with me for every "natural" feeling I have. I know where those feelings come from and what valuable purposes they served under different conditions. But our intellect means we don't have to be slaves to those animal instincts either. We can do better.

What evolved naturally worked lacking intellect, but it doesn't mean there is nothing possible better now that we have intellects that allow us to control our instincts.

I think the main problem is it is seemingly hard for people to accept that it is possible to face our nature as is, including the sides of ourselves that we don't like to face, and at the same time not approve of continuing natural behavior. Somehow the word "natural" got overloaded to mean good, okay, healthy, maybe because today people are bombarded with marketing messages that natural food is healthy food, natural things are good for you, etc.

Nature is full of terrible things. There is nothing all that great about it. Mostly it is creatures struggling to survive and a lot of brutality. Natural includes poisons, being eaten alive by other animals, pain, suffering, disease, might makes right, etc. All pretty terrible things that worked pre-intellect, but we can do better if we choose it.

sananeko
11-11-2009, 03:20 AM
This story makes me so fucking angry and disgusted every time I hear someone talk about it. If I were related to that girl none of these men would have lived through the rest of the weekend.
If I walked by and saw this I would be the one on tv for mass murder..I don't care if some were just watching.. they all should be in jail so they can learn how the girl felt.

kittygirl
11-11-2009, 03:40 AM
XDamage, I repeat that once again Sociobiology and Evolutionary Psychology are not sciences but rather social theory.

I prefer to concoct my own rather than listen to sexist mens' "vision" of what is true.

You have nothing in fact to base your theories on.

And, frankly, your verbosity I believe is to draw attention away from the fact that you aren't really saying anything.

That's a trademark of academics with no point. If I am as verbose and as obtuse as possible, maybe they won't notice that I have nothing to say.

Try to be succinct if you have a point.

Do you really think it was "the great Sociobiology" that gave women permission to enjoy sex. Oops, I thought it was women demanding that right. But we are smaller so I guess we need men to tell us it's OK in the form of a predjudiced, nonscientific set of theories. Thanks you guys ::)

sananeko
11-11-2009, 03:45 AM
Men may rule the world but its the women that tug at the strings to make them dance.

I will never understand how people fight using typed words and no show of emotion.

Vamp
11-11-2009, 10:19 AM
You keep hearing "excuse" or trying to insist others are looking for an excuse, but I guess that is to be expected.

Let me answer you like this:

When people commit crimes we lock them up so they can't do it again, and to set an example for others, but we also don't completely give up hope that there is no chance of rehabilitating them, or preventing the crimes in the future.

When I worked with criminals it comes down to this -

Those working with them end up having to both despise the crime, and yet still treat them like people with some hope of rehabilitation.

The reason we as a society don't entirely give up on our criminals is complex, but a lot of it comes down to we all know one day it might be someone we know, or even ourselves behind bars. Unlikely, but not impossible.

Part of the reason we don't entirely give up on people is that we all intuitively know that on some level we really don't know to what degree humans are affected by their society, by their hormones, by their nature.

We do know that people do infact make excuses for their outcomes in life constantly when it suits them and if you read here or anywhere, people are constantly blaming their failings on some factor they feel is out of their control. Someone else, something else, but themselves..

And we know that there is a fundamental problem, because if we all have free will and complete control in every situation, then nobody should have an excuse for anything ever. But we don't like that because we all want the option to blame our own failings on our environment, our hormones, others around us, or something when it suits us. And we like to believe others have complete control (i.e. those we perceive as doing us wrong) but not us (i.e., if we do others wrong we hope for some degree of mercy due to conditions we couldn't control). Basic human nature.

There are different people who play different roles in a crime. The victim, the criminal, those immediately effected (i.e., the families), and the society as a whole that must react.

Each has a different PoV with the victim's being the strongest and saddest, the criminals always have excuses, and the society being the most concerned about long term trends and how to cope with them, because if the trends aren't corrected, then we know there will be more victims tomorrow.

We know that punishing today's criminal does not and has not stopped all future crime, and so as a society we can still try to change the conditions that lead to crime. That or we have to believe it is hopeless and criminals are just bad people and there is nothing we can do to decrease future crimes, which is truly hopeless.

What your wrong about is this. That doesn't make me dismissive because my brain doesn't see things from only one single PoV (the victim) to the exclusion of all else.

This doesn't make me dismissive because my brain doesnt shut out all other PoV but the victim's, though arguably it does dull the intensity of that, and so there you have a point. And your right that does seem insensitive. And you could even be right that even the Lounge here really is just an extension of a support forum that wants support first, and the matter I'm discussing simply is too difficult for this forum to assimilate. That may well be, and I apologize for that. Others will carry on that discussion regardless of whether it is tolerated here, but you should at least consider this:

It means that the matter of violence (and free will, and choice, and what is society vs free will, and what is nature vs free will) is not a simplistic black or white matter in my head even if it is one in your head.

We're not actually here helping the victim. You are here for yourself. I'm here for myself. Nothing we say here actually helps her. This is ultimately about us and what is good for us.

I find it is actually useful to cope with the shock of crime by also holding multiple PoV as it dulls the intensity (and strong emotions) of holding just the PoV of the victim.

For someone recently a victim, it works better to focus on their hurt and only their hurt without needing to feel even the slightest bit of concern over the criminal. I get that.

I was wrong though and agree. This isn't the forum for other PoVs; there are obviously too many people here who are victims. I apologize and back down. Sorry.

Thank you for trying to understand.

I am not here just for myself. I have no need to be here outside of sharing ideas. Ideas have their own power. Ideas can change the world. I have learned alot by visiting this site over the years. Who knows how many read what we write and take it away with them.

I do understand the complexity of the psychology of violence. When one is a counselor or in therapy for example it is important to understand all sides. It is the only way to progress. That is a private matter.

But if as a society if we try to understand all sides when passing judgement on a crime; all we will do is allow the crimes to continue. We are then validating the crime instead of punishing it.

The only time we should try to understand all sides of a crime is when we are being proactive about prevention. This is long before the crime is commited.

That is why when I speak about crimes I am completely one sided. I am not close minded. I just understand the impact of what I am saying.

Vamp
11-11-2009, 10:33 AM
The statistical evidence is that men are far more likely to intitiate violence then women. I just can't avoid that evidence, but that also implies there is a genetic under-pinning behind it. That is not an excuse to behave badly, but a facing of reality, even if it is not Disney friendly. We are apparently the fighters of the species, and the more likely abusers, but that said...

It is beyond me to judge all of history. I fear that the reality is that pattern cannot ever end. That the only way it could end is for society to stop breeding bigger more aggressive males, and we won't do that because even if we knew how to do it, we like having bigger aggressive males around when the benefit us. And unless every society world-wide would do it, another society would have an advantage if the are bigger, stronger, more aggressive.



I should of been more specific in my quotation. This is the line that set me off. Because it completely makes every other point you made null and void.

You dont seem to grasp the fact when you make statements like this you ARE making excuses. You are giving " big aggressive males" an easy out for their behavior because "we" need them. As long as we (society) think the ONLY way to resolve issues is through violence it will continue. It has nothing to do with gender or breeding.

I have lived alone in Detroit without a man or a dog. I was still safe ...... wonder how that happened.

I am a quote addict: "I object to violence because even when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary; the evil it does is permanent."
Mahatma Gandhi

kittygirl
11-11-2009, 11:18 AM
The bigger more aggressive males line got me too.

Rapists are "by nature" wieners who feel they have no power.

They are not the same kind of men who prefer to "protect".

It's his own faulty non-logic. But, I am sure he will pretend to have some anecdotal proof.

And sorry, but for the most part the women that I know with children have chosen to "breed" with kind, considerate men who would be good fathers above all else(i.e. not abusive, patient - it's less about resources than you would try to convince us or look at all the poor men with kids). Oh no, what does this mean for our "genetic future".

Frankly, I believe that men who believe this crap are the same ones who think women only like men with money and that's why they have so little success in their own minds. Maybe you're married, but did you ever see anything else redeeming in yourself? Maybe that's the problem.

Keep telling me that women choose men "with alpha traits who are pricks because it ensures their survival as women don't mind raising the child alone as long as it has 'desireable' genetics" and you and WestCoast can entertain each other all night long.

xdamage
11-11-2009, 11:38 AM
I should of been more specific in my quotation. This is the line that set me off. Because it completely makes every other point you made null and void.

You dont seem to grasp the fact when you make statements like this you ARE making excuses. You are giving " big aggressive males" an easy out for their behavior because "we" need them. As long as we (society) thinks the only way to resolve issues is through violence it will continue. It has nothing to do with gender or breeding.

I have lived alone in Detroit without a man or a dog. I was still safe ...... wonder how that happened.

You seem to want a reply so my reply is this:

When I was younger there were a lot of teachers who were 100% that every kid who had a concentration problem was being willfully just a bad kid, and they were absolutely sure that those kids could control it all if they just wanted too. The idea that there might be a biological component was replied to with "your just making excuses".

When I was younger and even today, there were a lot of people running around believing that homosexuals are willfully choosing sex with same partners, that the idea that there might be a biological reason, that they are just wired, was just a lot of people making excuses for bad behavior.

I've worked with people that swear on a stack of metaphorical bibles, that their compulsions, that their lack of anger control, that their heinous behaviors even pedophile drives, are something deep that they can't entirely control.

And among all those people, it is complicated by the fact that some ADD kids could do more to control it and are such because of reasons that no medicine can cure; that there are social homosexuals who do it just cause it is cool; that we still debate how much anger, depression, suicide, violence is due to genetics, temporary biological conditions, hormones, etc.

And people, using their intellect, and research, found that when it comes to ADD kids, it is not so black and white as pure self control. We actually treat those kids with more compassion today, which pisses off the people that wanted to stop at believing it must be willful. We also are working on treatments to really help vs judging.

We found that depressed people sometimes have biological reasons behind it and can't always just will themselves to be happy. We treat these people more compassionately today because we understand they are not just being willfully difficult or emotional. We also are working on treatments to really help vs judging.

We're learning that homosexuality really isn't so bad, actually it is harmless, and not everyone is doing it just to be willfully different. As a result of the "excuse" of genetics, we treat them with greater compassion, and decided, yep, we'll just live with it as is, while understanding it is not entirely abnormal.

And we may just find that violence is not just purely an act of will, and we might even be able to do something about it vs just being upset, and that might actually decrease the number of victims, something that really helps people, far more then our individual feelings are having an impact.

Now, If you are a victim of violence, then part of healing does require coping with the hurt, and not feeling the slightest twinge of guilt over your tormentor. I get that. And really that can't be done on the internet except in a very focused support group. But the rest of society has to go on, and will go on.

But let's suppose we do find genes that are markers for probable violence. There is a chance that we then do something about it, using our intellects. One possibility that it can be treated earlier, maybe through meds, or maybe like other genetic conditions (e.g., downs syndrome) a decision will have to be made (a tough decision) not to propogate people with strong violent genetic markers. That is in our future though.

You keep insisting it is about making "excuses" - just like everyone before you feared that learning about our genetic nature was about making excuses. It is not. It is about finding the truth, and then from that we tend to naturally improve our society, but the truth has to be learned first.

And you and I should be happy if it means less victims.

But the hard part will be this...

If it turns out there are genetic markers or even just hormonal measurements that indicate statistical probabilities for ADD, homosexuality, depression, violence, even pedophilia we will be forced to make some decisions. I'm not sure we will want to entirely give up aggression or violence, but we will see, that is a complicated matter that does set people off. In any case though that is far off in our future. First is to understand if there genetic/biological factors we could use to measure that are indicators of increased probability of violence. That may stir worries about "excuses" but that goes hand in hand with wanting us people to rise above our natures too.

Vamp
11-11-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm not sure we will want to entirely give up aggression or violence, but we will see, that is a complicated matter that does set people off. In any case though that is far off in our future. First is to understand if there genetic/biological factors we could use to measure that are indicators of increased probability of violence. That may stir worries about "excuses" but that goes hand in hand with wanting us people to rise above our natures too.

To bottom line it ...... this is the difference between us. I want violence to stop existing on this earth in any form.

Once again I have no problem with science. But when you are spewing unfounded science forth over the issue of a raped 15yr old girl it just smacks of misogyny.

erotictonic
11-11-2009, 01:55 PM
Once again I have no problem with science. But when you are spewing unfounded science forth over the issue of a raped 15yr old girl it just smacks of misogyny.

At least, it does seem unempathic.

Vamp
11-11-2009, 02:53 PM
I love this quote. I'm making it my new siggy.

;D The quote is from a movie called the African Queen. Great movie with Humphrey Bogart. If you love the quote you would love the movie!

xdamage
11-11-2009, 04:24 PM
To bottom line it ...... this is the difference between us. I want violence to stop existing on this earth in any form.
.

I do too, but I don't know that everyone does. We live in a reasonably peace wanting society, but not all societies agree, and peace can only work if everyone (worldwide) agrees. That is a matter that we'll just have to wait and see on as even our peace loving society is fairly fragile. A war, a catastrophe, things can change very fast.



Once again I have no problem with science. But when you are spewing unfounded science forth over the issue of a raped 15yr old girl it just smacks of misogyny.

Right, well there is the problem. I forget most people are not comfortable with multiple PoV.

If you are not completely 100% them, you are completely 100% against them. If your not emotionally as charged and single minded as they are it means you have no feelings at all. Black or White, All or Nothing.

Not all humans bin each other out into such extremes but many people's brains do and simply can't conceive that others ambivalence does not mean they feel lees; it means they feel multiple things at the same time which not everyone else can do.

I can be 100% disgusted, and at the same time 100% hopeful of a future that finds a solution. If you cannot then I can't help you understand how that is possible.

But yes, in the context of this forum it is to be expected not everyone is comfortable with that. They can only conceive of Black or White, entirely for or against, so my mistake there.

p.s And victims of crime do need space to be 100% angry without any duality, so my mistake in bringing it up here.

erotictonic
11-11-2009, 06:15 PM
I do too, but I don't know that everyone does. We live in a reasonably peace wanting society, but not all societies agree, and peace can only work if everyone (worldwide) agrees. That is a matter that we'll just have to wait and see on as even our peace loving society is fairly fragile. A war, a catastrophe, things can change very fast.



Right, well there is the problem. I forget most people are not comfortable with multiple PoV.

If you are not completely 100% them, you are completely 100% against them. If your not emotionally as charged and single minded as they are it means you have no feelings at all. Black or White, All or Nothing.

Not all humans bin each other out into such extremes but many people's brains do and simply can't conceive that others ambivalence does not mean they feel lees; it means they feel multiple things at the same time which not everyone else can do.

I can be 100% disgusted, and at the same time 100% hopeful of a future that finds a solution. If you cannot then I can't help you understand how that is possible.

But yes, in the context of this forum it is to be expected not everyone is comfortable with that. They can only conceive of Black or White, entirely for or against, so my mistake there.

p.s And victims of crime do need space to be 100% angry without any duality, so my mistake in bringing it up here.

It's more or less a social more rather than a multiple pov that people don't understand, in this case. In respect for the girl...... that you don't disrespect her by mucking up the thread with this stuff, which I think would obviously be a thread expecting a lot of empathy for her.....of course, people on the net aren't what I call the epitome of social or respectful, so, c'est la vie.

Doing so certainly doesn't put you in a place of being popular on the pink side, but I don't think you care.

Gia2608
11-11-2009, 10:28 PM
I avoided opening this thread for three days because I knew it would make me sick. If that was my little sister I'd shoot them all and not even regret the jail time.





BTW Athena, your hair looks fab! So off topic I know, but it needed to be said!

kittygirl
11-11-2009, 11:09 PM
XDamage, you keep saying the rest of us think in black and white.

To me, it seems like you have that problem. But, I guess you are more like what you are complaining about - "my way or the highway".

You know some studies think ADD is linked to sugar consumption, since you cannot isolate a gene are you actually open to this other point of view? Or are you so set in believing unfounded theories that you will refute this actual science?

Him doing this in this thread is far more than unempathatic, it is pathetic in my opinion.

Start a new thread for your soapbox ramblings. Then WestCoast will spew out things you like and seem to need to hear.

The other thing I take issue with is the dismissive tone you use saying that you understand that victims of crime need to have no guilt.

Victim=victim. What is so hard to understand?

Back to my question. I think you are married. Why do you think your wife married you? If it solely due to your "aggressive, alpha genetics and predetermined rapist tendencies" than I feel sorry that you think that.

I'm sure her "reasoning" (if women have that in your world) is far more complex.

kittygirl
11-11-2009, 11:10 PM
XDamage, you keep saying the rest of us think in black and white.

To me, it seems like you have that problem. But, I guess you are more like what you are complaining about - "my way or the highway".

You know some studies think ADD is linked to sugar consumption, since you cannot isolate a gene are you actually open to this other point of view? Or are you so set in believing unfounded theories that you will refute this actual science?

Him doing this in this thread is far more than unempathatic, it is pathetic in my opinion.

Start a new thread for your soapbox ramblings. Then WestCoast will spew out things you like and seem to need to hear.

The other thing I take issue with is the dismissive tone you use saying that you understand that victims of crime need to have no guilt.

Victim=victim. What is so hard to understand?

Back to my question. I think you are married. Why do you think your wife married you? If it solely due to your "aggressive, alpha genetics and predetermined rapist tendencies" then I feel sorry that you think that.
I'm sure her "reasoning" (if women have that in your world) is far more complex.

xdamage
11-12-2009, 06:17 AM
Doing so certainly doesn't put you in a place of being popular on the pink side, but I don't think you care.

Not much.

Having worked with criminals I actually wanted to do something to try to help. I realized long ago we're going to have to change and we as society seemingly don't actually want to do that. Part of the reason I quit was it became apparent, we seemingly have no interest in really stopping violent crimes. Anyone can really do the job of holding them in lockup for a few years.

We as society haven't changed at all in regards to how we cope with crime, not in many generations. It is the same as it was when I was a child. We are stuck at being disgusted and think our duty as citizens are done. We won't increase the punishments, the rehabilitation, or start demanding more of the rest of society, so that is it.

We seem to have turned crime reports (like this topic) into our personal entertainment. We read/watch just enough to get ourselves pissed off, get emotionally disgusted, and then... do mostly nothing to change it, absolutely sure there is nothing we can do and become hostile at the idea that we really could do somethings, because then it wouldn't be about our entertainment anymore.

We're not actually interested in spending more on LE, or improving our rehab, or changing our own behaviors.

So, no not entirely interested in being liked constantly and always going along with the highest approval rating.



You know some studies think ADD is linked to sugar consumption, since you cannot isolate a gene are you actually open to this other point of view? Or are you so set in believing unfounded theories that you will refute this actual science?


I already wrote there are multiple reasons that contribute to ADD, but don't be silly and assume everyone else is stupid and hasn't already considered sugar. Throwing up your arms that it is just a theory because we don't understand everything, 100% is black and white thinking.



Him doing this in this thread is far more than unempathatic, it is pathetic in my opinion.

Start a new thread for your soapbox ramblings. Then WestCoast will spew out things you like and seem to need to hear.


Right, well that is the real problem.

The people here aren't ready to talk about new thinking, and it's rather like a crowd yelling Witch or Demon - they really don't want to hear about something like mental illness, genetic causes, biological factors, now do they? Witch and Demon is what they want.



The other thing I take issue with is the dismissive tone you use saying that you understand that victims of crime need to have no guilt.

Victim=victim. What is so hard to understand?


If you're a victim I'm sorry for you, but to be honest, the Lounge and public is not the place to get help with it. It simply doesn't work to create an open forum and then expect nobody will ever say things that victims can cope with. If you're a victim get some help and take it out of the public. I've been one. It takes time and it simply cannot be dealt with in wide open public forums. That said...

It is not right for victims to demand the rest of the world only treat them as victims. As a victim that doesn't need to make sense why but every victim program you enter is eventually going to push you to stop being a victim and take more steps, so that you can go back to not being a victim, and there is reasons why that is necessary too.




Back to my question. I think you are married. Why do you think your wife married you? If it solely due to your "aggressive, alpha genetics and predetermined rapist tendencies" than I feel sorry that you think that.

I'm sure her "reasoning" (if women have that in your world) is far more complex.

Sigh. Why do you raise A or B questions like this? Of course not. Yes, you're a black and white thinker.

Your brain has a comprehension problem. It is completely obvious that she, like all of us, has multiple reasons for doing what she does. It wouldn't even occur to me that there is only one simple reason. To even raise it as a question indicates that you need to think that way, but it's obvious to most people that there are multiple reasons why people do what they do.

That still doesn't mean that ALL of their reasons are without quandary or that things we want personally don't have conflicts with what is best long term for our society.

But I do think your a misandrist "aggressive, alpha genetics and predetermined rapist tendencies"

Misandrists often accuse males who disagree with them about anything of being misogynists.

The definition of misogyny is not that all men have to agree with you 100% in everything or you throw an emotional temper tantrum like a barely overgrown child. That is called immaturity, and has nothing to do with sex.

This is not what we were trying to do when we were fighting for women's equal rights, though we knew Misandrists like yourself would abuse the message.

The crime is EVIL, and needs to be stopped. However it is also evil that the message of equality has been abused by some as an excuse to be misandrists, and to only selectively take responsibility for the good things in society, to blame all that is wrong on men.

Look, if we want to believe all things are due to social changes that can be changed, then as women you are 50% of the society. You are equal. So if there are problems you are 50% responsible.

If OTOH you want to believe men uniquely are evil, that women can do no more themselves, that is fine, then let us guys figure out ways to try to put an end to it. If you're not interested in any changes in females that is fine. The guys will have to determine if there are biological factors we can control. I'm interested in fixing the problem too, not just another 100 years of doing absolutely nothing different and lamenting the evils of man.

kittygirl
11-12-2009, 06:34 AM
Do you have a puppeteer that just makes you repeat and repeat and repeat....

Black and white thinking is not what drives me to ask the question of why you think your wife married you.

That question illustrates more nuanced thinking than your repetitive assumption that men rape because of genetic predetermination (umm, read your past posts - I just tweak the phrase, but it is what you said).

You call my thoughts immature, but I find that not realizing violence stems from a complex set of issues far beyond any one person's comprehension is more immature.

The whole point of why women choose the men they do refutes your theory of the "big, aggressive males" being violent yet a desired set of genetics. You remember when you said we want them as protectors, but they commit violence. So, the only woman you have the right to comment on is the one who picked you because you might actually KNOW why or could ask.

Maybe now you actually realize your argument is grounded in BS but you just can't handle that because then you wouldn't have license to be an a-hole when you feel inclined.

Go cry in your copy of The Sociobiology of Rape, and while you're at use it for TP.

xdamage
11-12-2009, 06:51 AM
ore nuanced thinking than your repetitive assumption that men rape because of genetic predetermination (umm, read your past posts - I just tweak the phrase, but it is what you said).

You call my thoughts immature, but I find that not realizing violence stems from a complex set of issues far beyond any one person's comprehension is more immature.

The whole point of why women choose the men they do refutes your theory of the "big, aggressive males" being violent yet a desired set of genetics. You remember when you said we want them as protectors, but they commit violence. So, the only woman you have the right to comment on is the one who picked you because you might actually KNOW why or could ask.

Maybe now you actually realize your argument is grounded in BS but you just can't handle that because then you wouldn't have license to be an a-hole when you feel inclined.

Go cry in your copy of The Sociobiology of Rape, and while you're at use it for TP.

No what drives you is you're insistence that people who are trying to find causes and maybe later cures are trying to justify rape. You're not actually interested in fixes because if it was fixed then you wouldn't have someone to be pissed off at, which is what is interesting to you.

We all fully agree that human behavior is a complex mix of personal choice, social factors (which you as a member of society are a possible contributor too), and biological factors, which we simply do not understand, but don't tell me you do. You don't know for each and every person exactly what factors weighed into their choices. That is for (metaphorical or real if you believe it) God to decide.

I'm sorry you are not capable of seeing beyond that, but if people like yourself we're the end/all/be/all we'd still be blaming all human behavioral problems (ADD, mental illness, depression, mood swings) on demons, willfulness, witch craft, and whatever else is emotionally thrilling to believe, but did nothing to actually fix the problems.

The fortunate thing is some people will push forward and they might even find some factors we can fix, and yep, find out that they are biological. And if that takes some of the steam out of your anger, but actually decreases the number of victims in the future, well guess what?

Your anger is something I'd gladly give up if we could help just 1 victim from being a victim by treating a biological matter. If that deflates some of your sense of right/wrong and leaves you going hmm.. maybe not every criminal was 100% in control, too bad! It's not all about you. Helping one person not be a victim would make that worth while. Helping even 10% would be amazing and if you really care about victims, stop being a road block.

Why are you so objectionable to sociobiological research? The best case for you is it proves there were no biological causes and you are right. The best case for everyone else is we find causes, and can fix them and decrease some violent crime. That should make you pleased, even if means you can't be quite as pissed at people who it turns out do have a different biological starting hand in life then yourself.

kittygirl
11-12-2009, 07:31 AM
Do you honestly believe you and the sociobiologists are going to fix rape??

Puh-leez.

On stripperweb, now really. Great place to start.

Wow you are so ambitious.

Try this, maybe teach boys to respect women more, or does that (before eugenics and DNA splicing) just get under your skin.

Look at the varying degrees of rape around the world and I think you are on your way to fix it. I call it culture, but maybe we should just get rid of certain peoples' genes if you know what I mean (wink, wink).

xdamage
11-12-2009, 07:47 AM
I guess part of the problem is I spent many years working with people who couldn't measure a 10 on an IQ test, and whose brain issues (from birth or later in life) went the full extremes including people who could barely do more then be alive, to those who ate their own bodies, to those who were very violent, yet it was never a black or white matter.

We still tried to teach them to do better, and to decrease violence with behavioral mod, but it didn't always work.

If any average person walked into such a facility they'd agree these people are not responsible for their actions because they are brain damaged, and we do know people accept that brain damage is "an excuse"

The problem is that is black and white thinking. There is no such thing as "brain damaged" or "not brain damaged". It is not an A or B thing or even a simple matter of degree.

There is not even a line on which you can measure brain damage. It's this big three dimensional thing we don't understand fully, and any parts can be damaged after birth, or during wiring, and we don't even know what "normal" is since the brain is constantly evolving and there are already many variations.

The point is responsibility is always a fuzzy gray matter and we're never going to entirely agree what is due to brain wiring and what is learned. All we can do is push on in the areas that we can push on. The shock that humans are capable, even of eating their own bodies, let alone commit violence against others, doesn't exactly wear off, but it does lessen some after you work with it for long enough. It's not that we care less, it's that we also get that there are things we can do, to some degree things we can't do, that it's part of reality, and in the end there are those doing something about it, and those on the sidelines upset.

Likewise with criminals. After you work with enough you begin to see it is not simply black or white, it becomes increasingly clear there is something not quite right about a lot of them even those who don't clearly have other mental issues, especially the ones we worked with who were repeat offenders. And no matter how much we wish it was as simple as being pissed and wishing they would just stop it, that wasn't going to work.

The problem is we may never even find a problem with all of their brains. It may well be that all we ever find is that they are simply people whose aggression just goes out of control, and that we as a society can never fix that because we can never make society 100% ideal for everyone. We can decrease it, but it remains. Then again we're back to blame. Since now we are having to believe "society" is an excuse, seemingly also for male bad behavior as well as female behavior.

I also did some time working with animals. There is simply no way to avoid facing the reality that our domesticated animals simply are less likely to be violent towards us (though they may still be so against their natural prey to some degree), and this is not a matter of social training but their nature, which even though we can't yet identify the exact genes, is definitely due to their genes. This doesn't mean they are better/good animals. It just means that for various reasons they are less likely to act violently. There is simply no way to ignore this. It doesn't change the we can be pissed at criminals, but it's just not possible for some of us to entirely ignore that this is a big factor that really makes us go "hmm" about the notion of good/bad, choice/not-choice when it comes to human behavior.

We also know that we gladly forgive each other for losing control over own emotions, personal fights we have, that even generally well controlled people occasionally lose it, because we all know we actually don't control own own emotions entirely through intellect. That social training leaves us better or worse at it, but even so, some people have a harder fight with stronger emotions then others.

There are people out there trying to find fixes for various brain wiring matters. I applaud them because they actually are making a positive difference even if it does discharge some of our personal anger over what is behind violent crime. But then it should be about what can we do to help decrease victims, not just about what makes us feel best.

erotictonic
11-12-2009, 12:44 PM
I guess part of the problem is I spent many years working with people who couldn't measure a 10 on an IQ test, and whose brain issues (from birth or later in life) went the full extremes including people who could barely do more then be alive, to those who ate their own bodies, to those who were very violent, yet it was never a black or white matter.

We still tried to teach them to do better, and to decrease violence with behavioral mod, but it didn't always work.

If any average person walked into such a facility they'd agree these people are not responsible for their actions because they are brain damaged, and we do know people accept that brain damage is "an excuse"

The problem is that is black and white thinking. There is no such thing as "brain damaged" or "not brain damaged". It is not an A or B thing or even a simple matter of degree.

There is not even a line on which you can measure brain damage. It's this big three dimensional thing we don't understand fully, and any parts can be damaged after birth, or during wiring, and we don't even know what "normal" is since the brain is constantly evolving and there are already many variations.

The point is responsibility is always a fuzzy gray matter and we're never going to entirely agree what is due to brain wiring and what is learned. All we can do is push on in the areas that we can push on. The shock that humans are capable, even of eating their own bodies, let alone commit violence against others, doesn't exactly wear off, but it does lessen some after you work with it for long enough. It's not that we care less, it's that we also get that there are things we can do, to some degree things we can't do, that it's part of reality, and in the end there are those doing something about it, and those on the sidelines upset.

Likewise with criminals. After you work with enough you begin to see it is not simply black or white, it becomes increasingly clear there is something not quite right about a lot of them even those who don't clearly have other mental issues, especially the ones we worked with who were repeat offenders. And no matter how much we wish it was as simple as being pissed and wishing they would just stop it, that wasn't going to work.

The problem is we may never even find a problem with all of their brains. It may well be that all we ever find is that they are simply people whose aggression just goes out of control, and that we as a society can never fix that because we can never make society 100% ideal for everyone. We can decrease it, but it remains. Then again we're back to blame. Since now we are having to believe "society" is an excuse, seemingly also for male bad behavior as well as female behavior.

I also did some time working with animals. There is simply no way to avoid facing the reality that our domesticated animals simply are less likely to be violent towards us (though they may still be so against their natural prey to some degree), and this is not a matter of social training but their nature, which even though we can't yet identify the exact genes, is definitely due to their genes. This doesn't mean they are better/good animals. It just means that for various reasons they are less likely to act violently. There is simply no way to ignore this. It doesn't change the we can be pissed at criminals, but it's just not possible for some of us to entirely ignore that this is a big factor that really makes us go "hmm" about the notion of good/bad, choice/not-choice when it comes to human behavior.

We also know that we gladly forgive each other for losing control over own emotions, personal fights we have, that even generally well controlled people occasionally lose it, because we all know we actually don't control own own emotions entirely through intellect. That social training leaves us better or worse at it, but even so, some people have a harder fight with stronger emotions then others.

There are people out there trying to find fixes for various brain wiring matters. I applaud them because they actually are making a positive difference even if it does discharge some of our personal anger over what is behind violent crime. But then it should be about what can we do to help decrease victims, not just about what makes us feel best.

I understand you on this, I believe. I have a history of borderline personality disorder, so I studied psychology to a degree. No, it was by-far NOT black-and-white, not having the disorder, nor anyone else who had a situation. There are greys to every situation. And yes, to solve the problem, if it is mainly psychological, it does take the person problem-solving, observing, and opening their mind. It's a BIG challenge, and the only way I was able to move toward recovery was when I met someone I honestly trusted. That took me 30 years. It's definitely a catch 22 situation. I was pissed because when I raged, people just saw me as "mean and nasty", as if I was choosing it. They thought I should just accept and understand all these things I was clueless about. They had no idea what was going on behind the scenes, and honestly couldn't have cared less. If I wanted to, I would have reasons to hate all people, and did for a long time. There are people out there suffering who can't recover, right now. It's the hardest thing I ever did.

Yes, it has so many factors and is so individual to the person, that it's even hard to help the person, especially when they trust no one due to their environment and mental condition. That person has to make it out of a deep, dark forest, mainly alone (and I am speaking of recovering from bpd). At the end, you don't get any applause either. It's done for you and you only (and possibly for a relationship, as was in my case). Yes, it's scary, and yes, you have beliefs and fears that have you roped in and held there. You have to just decide that doing something else won't kill you. And that has to be in the presence of loving people you can trust who understand you. (That's how it was for me anyways.)

I think that yes, there is definitely a tie to nature. I was predisposed for bpd. My father had it. We also share alcoholism. But, nature is only a small piece in the puzzle that leads to a person into full-blown bpd, in a lot of cases. There can also be environmental, physiological, and neurological factors. Add to that that most people with bpd have other conditions as well, such as high narcissism, paranoia, histrionic, etc. So you can see that just in the realm of bpd, there are many, many variations. Each person has to figure out themselves and work it out themselves. And when a person isn't that bright, well, it's not so pretty of a task.

I do know there seems to be a tie between violence and aggression and high testosterone. My bf worked as a bouncer, and he was rather violent in his early 20's, until he solved the problem and got it under control. But I do believe that people commit violence for their very own reasons. Each boy that committed that rape did it for his own personal reasons, and he has his own set of unique problems. And they are the only ones who can overcome them, if they wish. Drugs seems to also be the straw-that-broke-the-camels back when it comes to violence. You take a person who does have major problems, such as a disorder, and add crack, you can get a deadly scenario. That's why it's fucking hilarious to me that kittygirl said crack dealers were decent people. Gawd, what are you smoking? These guys have responsibility for contributing to extreme violence, death, addiction, decay, etc. etc. Yet she is pointing the finger at people who aren't a hair on the ass of a crack dealer, when it comes to contributing to the erosion of people and society. That points to major psychological and mental issues, imo.

There are TONS of people who are still ignorant in the area of psychology. Even psychologists don't know what to do with antisocials (they refuse help, their condition appears to be permanent), but they are making some progress with borderlines. I have been in the boat where I was angry because I wanted people to do something about antisocials. I wanted them to be locked up and throw away the key. I wanted them to be unable to bare children. Now I realize that is not possible, due to the restriction of freedoms it would entail, and also, the consequences it would entail. We can't get rid of the genes, imo. When you tamper with nature, you are asking for imminent consequences.

The thing is, that I don't think people honestly give a shit enough to change it. People see violence as "something that won't happen to me". It's a rarity in their minds. And the ones who live in ghettos, at some point, they accept it and are choosing to be there. San Jose does a more decent job; I landed my ass in a lock-up and was observed for 24 hours and spoke to a psychologist just for getting drunk and yelling outside in a parking lot. (Of course, I was acting like a drunk fool in front of the cops lol), and I was suffering from bpd at the time. The people of San Jose have done a lot of work in order to make it a safer city. It has to start with the people. People in general are apathetic, just like they are apathetic concerning the government. They want to argue democrat/republican, when there are much larger fish to fry. Generally, a person couldn't care less what the fuck bpd is, as long as they don't have to be bothered with someone who has it. That's why their kids are screwed; they have no one to help out, because their parents are so ignorant concerning many issues and problems that could affect their children. The parents, much like my own, would rather turn their heads the other way and pretend it is not happening, than to get involved in the details of their children's lives and accept that their kids are being bombarded with shit they can't handle, and they need help. People are lazy and uninvolved by choice (including me at this point, but I'm working on it).

I agree with you mostly here.

Do you think criminals are using society as an excuse (much as Charles Manson did), because it's just another "system" people are conforming to that works? The criminals hear other criminals saying it, and figure it's the thing to do. Much like people in social groups tend to copy one another in order to be liked. People prefer popularity over uniqueness or being smart. That irritates the hell out of me, although I do it sometimes myself (although not very often). Antisocials copy, but not for the same reasons (I know not all people in prison are antisocials, but I figure they own a good percentage), in fact, everyone seems to copy, more or less, to a certain extent. Plus, it works to get rid of the blame, so they can continue doing the damage. Even antisocials need a "reason" to commit their acts of violence; they need to persuade themselves into doing what they are doing and convince themselves it is ok, much like an alcoholic convincing himself that his drinking isn't affecting him or the ones he loves. "Society made me do it" is as good as any, and it's a popular response criminals could be passing around, as well as one they have convinced themselves of because they need to in order to keep being criminals. It's a subculture just like stripping or anything else, where psychologically things happen as a result of being there, and people move psychologically toward places they need to be in order to exist there.

In the case of an antisocial who has decided to take the path of career criminal, there is not much we can do at this point but put them behind bars eternally. We fail, because of apathy and ignorance, once again. Or is it lack of resources as well? And failure to make decisions quickly enough.

Yes, it will be nice when you can have a kid and know what you are dealing with when they are infants.

I suppose my point in posting was to say that yes, I understand your desire to explore further and to understand the complicated mess that people are, and the fact that observing them without judging them is the way to move toward a more full understanding, which will lead to solving the problem of violence, mental disorders, etc.

SteveSmith
11-12-2009, 01:33 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

This is really sad.

The headline for this on the CNN home page was "police: gang rape lasted over 2 hours".

It occured at a school dance on school property.

10 people looked on, some came and joined in.

The fact that the only reason it was reported to the police was because someone overheard someone "reminiscing" about the situation makes me sick to my stomach.


This was a racist hate crime. It was a group of Mexicans raping a White girl. That's why the other Mexicans didn't give a fuck about the White girl getting raped and stood by and did nothing or joined in.

dayna
11-12-2009, 03:09 PM
This is so awful, i can't believe these kids thought it was ok to stand and watch an innocent girl being raped without doing a damn thing to help her. It really disgusts me.

kittygirl
11-13-2009, 02:57 AM
Finally back to some intentions of the post - to discuss this rape.

I know what you mean living in Richmond, but in that case it just as easily could have been a Mexican or black girl. Male on female violence is always the norm.

Please ignore XDamage the sociobiologist puppet.

This is real and insane.

No one deserves this.

Being raped by a guy who "respected" my necklace, it's always insane amd fucks people up for a lifetime. But I made myself feel better because my necklace was still intact. Looking ack it was crazy but I needed just anything to hold on to.

ihearthepole
11-13-2009, 10:48 PM
Fucking disgusting. Whether she was white, black, hispanic, asian, WHATEVER, hate crimes happen in all fucking shapes and forms. Those bastards had better get whats coming to them, personally I'd like to see some dicks chopped off. But you know in a perfect world...