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J.D.
11-29-2009, 05:55 PM
Yeah, it's pretty hard to.

It's things like this that scare me away from marriage. I mean, how do you ever really know what you're getting? It's so easy to think you know your partner, but obviously, a lot of them are wrong. G's wife probably has no idea. How horrifying would it be if it was your husband saying stuff like that? You could think you've met the most honest, faithful guy on the planet, and then it turns out they've been cheating on you for years. Even more frightening to think this is probably a person you're having unprotected sex with.

You took the words right out of my mouth. Although my first boyfriend of three years treated me like a queen, and never glanced twice at any other girl, so he gives me hope that there are others like that out there too. If I had never met him, I would've given up on men altogether.

JayATee
11-29-2009, 05:57 PM
GR for all the threads you've been in talking about how people mistreat other people and how much better the world would be if they treated others decently and all that I can not believe what Im reading here. You need to practice what you preach. Karma is a bitch and you're not sending out anything that you'll appreciate getting back. After this I think you need to stop judging other peoples behaviour on this site since yours is utterly reprehensible.

Golden_Rule
11-29-2009, 05:57 PM
Somehow, I find myself ok with being accused of "judging" people for continually betraying and endangering the people they profess to love.

I am sure you would as you have never betrayed or endangered anyone you profess to care about and therefore are the perfect person to judge others who might have.

:) Your lack of worldliness tickles me no end. I would very much like to talk of this again when you are, say, thirty years older.

That isn't a shot. Simply a perception. It is my own and means something to me, and I don't claim it should mean anything to you at all. In fact I am sure it means nothing.

I truly wish you well...

J.D.
11-29-2009, 05:58 PM
GR for all the threads you've been in talking about how people mistreat other people and how much better the world would be if they treated others decently and all that I can not believe what Im reading here. You need to practice what you preach. Karma is a bitch and you're not sending out anything that you'll appreciate getting back. After this I think you need to stop judging other peoples behaviour on this site since yours is utterly reprehensible.

And then he says he is shocked at how hypocritical we all are. ::)

JayATee
11-29-2009, 05:59 PM
:) Your lack of worldliness tickles me no end. I would very much like to talk of this again when you are, say, thirty years older.



Ah yes, here it is. The usual "talk to me when you're older bit" as though you're the only one capable of understanding and being right about anything. ::)

Golden_Rule
11-29-2009, 06:06 PM
GR for all the threads you've been in talking about how people mistreat other people and how much better the world would be if they treated others decently and all that I can not believe what Im reading here. You need to practice what you preach. Karma is a bitch and you're not sending out anything that you'll appreciate getting back. After this I think you need to stop judging other peoples behaviour on this site since yours is utterly reprehensible.

First I try not to judge other people's behavior. Even when I was arresting them. Judging is for the folks in the black robes. I just enforced social standards of comportment.

And what, again, was lost to those reading along that I fully acknowledge the duality of my attempting, and being relatively successful, about maintaining my ethical code in all facets of my life except this one. And so important a one at that.

While I acknowledge its hypocritical nature [and as I said, I am just as capable of lying and being a hypocrite as anyone else - never said different - I just make damn sure I am not doing so to myself. IF I have an advantage that would be it and I only gained it though age and the fact that life as presented me ample opportunity to gain experience] I also acknowledge it makes me pretty much as human as anyone else.

I hoped, from the people present who are just as human - with their own frailties, lies, and betrayals not to be so quick to judge mine. Like I said, I hoped but figured I wouldn't get much different than I got. I know people very well and know what to expect from different types of souls walking about. [I knew precisely who would be the first to jump down my throat on this. :) ] Though it would have been nice to have been surprised.

Elvia
11-29-2009, 06:08 PM
I am sure you would as you have never betrayed or endangered anyone you profess to care about and therefore are the perfect person to judge others who might have.


I actually treat my partners very well. Always have. It's a strong value I was raised with. I just don't take it as lightly as you. And when there have been times in my life when I have realized that my behavior is wrong, I have corrected it. Even when it was unpleasant to do so. Even when it meant humbling myself and getting outside help.

It's sad that you think getting older means compromising your values. I know that's not the case. I've been fortunate enough to have some wonderful role models that have proven to me it's not, and I hope you have some too. You really don't have to cheat, even if you think you do. And there's help out there for people who can't control their negative behavior. All it requires is the ability to admit to it, and an honest desire to change your ways.

Golden_Rule
11-29-2009, 06:08 PM
Ah yes, here it is. The usual "talk to me when you're older bit" as though you're the only one capable of understanding and being right about anything. ::)

Where did I say that?

All I implied is that I thought it would be interesting. I specifically stated - quite precisely - that any opinion I had was simply that and shouldn't, and probably wouldn't, be seen as worth anything more than that.

Sorry Jay, I respect you quite a bit but on the above you are all wet.

mediocrity
11-29-2009, 06:09 PM
I am sure you would as you have never betrayed or endangered anyone you profess to care about and therefore are the perfect person to judge others who might have.

:) Your lack of worldliness tickles me no end. I would very much like to talk of this again when you are, say, thirty years older.

That isn't a shot. Simply a perception. It is my own and means something to me, and I don't claim it should mean anything to you at all. In fact I am sure it means nothing.

I truly wish you well...

Actually, if I endanger or betray people, it's a clear indicator that I don't love them. I would never hurt anyone I loved on purpose. The few times I have by accident I completely owned up to it and sincerely apologised.

Golden_Rule
11-29-2009, 06:14 PM
I actually treat my partners very well. Always have. It's a strong value I was raised with. I just don't take it as lightly as you. And when there have been times in my life when I have realized that my behavior is wrong, I have corrected it. Even when it was unpleasant to do so. Even when it meant humbling myself and getting outside help.


Actually, if I endanger or betray people, it's a clear indicator that I don't love them. I would never hurt anyone I loved on purpose. The few times I have by accident I completely owned up to it and sincerely apologised.

Then you are truly an above average human being and you therefore should feel free to judge anyone as harshly as you wish. Tell them all about it. Start with me. Today G_R, tomorrow the world. :)


It's sad that you think getting older means compromising your values. I know that's not the case. I've been fortunate enough to have some wonderful role models that have proven to me it's not, and I hope you have some too. You really don't have to cheat, even if you think you do. And there's help out there for people who can't control their negative behavior. All it requires is the ability to admit to it, and an honest desire to change your ways.

Its not about compromising values. If that were the case I would have changed my opinion on the right or wrong of it. What happens is you stop beliving your own BS about how perfect you are and acknowledge that all people do wrong, different wrongs, but we all do something... and that is something that unifies us and defines our humanity, in that we are all imperfect. So you change from trying to be perfect to doing the least amount of damage possible. In that change frequently becomig a person who causes a lot less damage than those "perfect" souls with their deeply devout beliefs in their own perfection.

Elvia
11-29-2009, 06:21 PM
^^^ An important part of having values is actually living them. It does no good to acknowledge something as wrong but to allow it to continue.

Yes, people do wrong. But people who truly care do what it takes to stop doing the things that they know are wrong. They don't just throw up their hands and say "oh well, no one's perfect" and continue doing the same old things. If you think that to only cheat on your wife occasionally is the best you can do, you are deluding yourself. People overcome far worse problems everyday, but they have to make the commitment to doing so first. That doesn't make people "perfect." We all mess up, but it's important to take the steps to rectify the situation when we recognize it, so we can do right by the other people in our lives.

mediocrity
11-29-2009, 06:25 PM
Then you are truly an above average human being and you therefore should feel free to judge anyone as harshly as you wish. Tell them all about it. Start with me. Today G_R, tomorrow the world. :)



Its not about compromising values. If that were the case I would have changed my opinion on the right or wrong of it. What happens is you stop beliving your own BS about how perfect you are and acknowledge that all people do wrong, different wrongs, but we all do something... and that is something that unifies us and defines our humanity, in that we are all imperfect. So you change from trying to be perfect to doing the least amount of damage possible. In that change frequently becomig a person who causes a lot less damage than those "perfect" souls with their deeply devout beliefs in their own perfection.

If it is above average to love and cherish and trust the most important people in your life, excuse me while I go ahead and lose faith in humanity.

J.D.
11-29-2009, 06:39 PM
No Med, it is normal, but some people are actually below average, morally.

Djoser
11-29-2009, 07:08 PM
GR, I am not trying to burn you at the stake here--and god knows the incidence of cheating in marriage is really, really high, like about 50% of men and 33% of women, last I saw.

A lot of our money comes from guys who have less circumspection about how their wives would view their outings to clubs than you do. At least you acknowledge it is wrong, some of these guys simply don't care.

I do think the average husband getting the average dick-grinding session at his favorite club is in a sense cheating on his wife, for sure, as it is very much a sexual experience to him--though to the women dancing it is not at all a sexual experience--and therein lies the difference in attitude. Especially as the dancers' SOs generally know exactly what is going on and accept it.

But could you be so calm and philosophical about this if your wife came and told you she's been blowing Rex at Chippendales once a month for a few years now, and letting Buck get her off good occasionally, too?

I confess to being extremely cynical about marriage, since most of them I've seen suck, and even the good ones look to be so often boring. But there are some very lucky couples out there who have found and kept true love. They don't cheat or lie to each other.

JayATee
11-29-2009, 07:15 PM
Sorry Jay, I respect you quite a bit but on the above you are all wet.

LoL. Says the person who tries not to judge people. Please. You know nothing about me. Your lengthy, sometimes rambling posts in which you so eloquently tell people how horrible they're being to other people doesn't make you more knowledgeable or less "wet". Must be lonely up there on that pedestal. You need a reality check. I don't care how much more experience you think you have, you don't get to tell other people all about what they're doing wrong while committing the disgusting acts you're talking about here.

You have no idea what I've been through. You have no idea what my life has been like. You have no idea how I grew up. Take your bs statements somewhere else, Im sick of hearing the "you're too young to understand" bull shit from you. I don't have to be older to know that what you're doing is not only morally reprehensible but just plain old wrong. You know this, that's why you don't tell your wife. But hey, follow your "golden rule". May others treat you as well as you have treated them.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-29-2009, 08:12 PM
Really,GR. Fuck what society thinks. And fuck what we think. All that matters is what you and your wife have agreed too. And that's not necessarily equal and reciprocal, just what you both feel comfortable with and are willing to compromise on.

You mentioned that you would understand if your wife was doing the same things you would. But what would happen if you found out? Is it allowed, discussed? Would you punish her if she did what you're doing. Would you leave?

MargaritaVillain
11-29-2009, 08:20 PM
So....
er, uh...are vaginal orgasms really just a myth?

/:O

:-\

;)

Elvia
11-29-2009, 08:35 PM
Really,GR. Fuck what society thinks. And fuck what we think. All that matters is what you and your wife have agreed too. And that's not necessarily equal and reciprocal, just what you both feel comfortable with and are willing to compromise on.

You mentioned that you would understand if your wife was doing the same things you would. But what would happen if you found out? Is it allowed, discussed? Would you punish her if she did what you're doing. Would you leave?

"agreed to" being the operative phrase. Which is not what's happening here. It's not really enough to say "well, I would be OK with it if she did what I was doing!" because she hasn't been included in that decision. She doesn't have the option of doing that because he doesn't want to arrange an open relationship, and she doesn't have the option of deciding she doesn't want to be with someone who sleeps around.

charlie61
11-29-2009, 09:09 PM
So....
er, uh...are vaginal orgasms really just a myth?

/:O

:-\

;)

Yeah, let's give up on a lost cause and either return to the OP or drop it altogether.

JayATee
11-29-2009, 09:26 PM
All that matters is what you and your wife have agreed too.


Nothing has been agreed to and that's the problem. She's being lied to, decieved and betrayed. It has nothing to do with what society or we think. It has to do with the facts of this situation.


So....
er, uh...are vaginal orgasms really just a myth?

/:O

:-\

;)

No, they're not. ;)

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-29-2009, 09:33 PM
Elvia and Jay,

That's what I meant. He should not be concerned with being judged if him and his wife have an agreement to their sexual dalances. But since they do not have open communication about what's transpiring, he should expect to get judged by us.

Why should strippers not be expected to value honesty and loyalty in people? Especially ones paying pseudo lip service to "golden rules." I will golden shower upon golden_rule's golden rule!!! :)

jack0177057
11-30-2009, 12:46 PM
Your "version" of sex is entirely romanticized. Even your hardcore version of sex starts off with a movie (albeit a horror movie but still).

Maybe true,... but, that's because I am currently involved in a "romantic" relationship. If instead, I had sex with a slutty girl I just met at a bar whom I had no romantic interest in, it wouldn't be "romanticized".

Can you have sex with a "romantic partner" or "life partner" (if you prefer that phrase) and not be "romantic" in your own way? If there is a desire to provide mutual pleasure, isn't that "romantic" - even if you are enganged in hard-core BDSM?

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving holiday.

JayATee
11-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Maybe true,... but, that's because I am currently involved in a "romantic" relationship. If instead, I had sex with a slutty girl I just met at a bar whom I had no romantic interest in, it wouldn't be "romanticized".

Can you have sex with a "romantic partner" or "life partner" (if you prefer that phrase) and not be "romantic" in your own way? If there is a desire to provide mutual pleasure, isn't that "romantic" - even if you are enganged in hard-core BDSM?

Hope you had a nice Thanksgiving holiday.

LoL, what constitutes a "slutty" girl in your opinion?

peachplumpear
11-30-2009, 02:52 PM
I've been sort of lurking on this post for a day or two now...and I completely agree with Golden Rule that what he does behind the back of his wife is entirely his own business. As a dancer- I know better than anyone what it is like to have someone impose their standards on me. When people ask me for sex in the club- I don't argue with them and try to turn them to the moral right, I just walk away and remind myself it'd be rediculous to get even the tiniest bit upset. It's not my life. Not my problem. I'm not offended, we're really throwin' it out there so it's only natural for guys to ask us....

But as a former and reformed cheater I can tell you it isn't impossible to stop searching for "variety". It does feel like I lost some part of myself though. I can't explain it. I just get very down and depressed sometimes because I "have to be with one person now". As much as I love my boyfriend and want to be with only him- I cannot help but fantasize about having MORE. If any little thing goes wring in my life I look to the confines of our relationship as a culprit and tell myself I'd be happier just screwing around. But it's sad, and I wish I didn't feel that way.

Anyway...yeah stripping can be considered cheating too. Whether they knew about it before you got together or not, you can't turn a blind eye to what the rest of the world is doing. We're all human, we're all in this together. Sometimes I think the fact that I strip is what continually triggers the desire to cheat.

please don't flame me though, just my two cents.

Golden_Rule
11-30-2009, 05:07 PM
But could you be so calm and philosophical about this if your wife came and told you she's been blowing Rex at Chippendales once a month for a few years now, and letting Buck get her off good occasionally, too?

Absolutely. Sauce for the gander is always sauce for the goose.

I can actually back that up. I wasn't going to tell this but I'll try to keep it brief, though in doing so I am going to leave out some detail.

Keeping this short is going to be tricky, as it was involved, but here goes.

Basically after the death of our son my wife got depressed and started shopping to feel better. She started using personal credit she had gotten outside the family and ran up $30K in debt. I knew something was wrong but since she was hiding the bills it took awhile for me to find out about it. About 3 years in fact.

We share in our finances his/hers/ours. She couldn't meet her obligations to our mutual bills any longer. This presented two ethical problems besides the obvious financial issue. She had 1) taken far more than her fair share of our money and 2) lied about it to cover it up.

She knew it was wrong while she was doing it. In fact she said she was relieved it was all finally out in the open. She was expecting me to blow up. I wasn't happy about it but I didn't blow up. I absorbed her personal debt into the family accounts and now the family has new bills to pay and we BOTH have less disposable income [even though I got no benefit from the money spent].

I did the emotional math and came to the conclusion that I love her more than I care about money. Even a lot of money.

I care about money [well what money represents, actually: freedom, security, etc] a lot more than I care about casual, non-emotion involved, sex [remember, I was a swinger for a couple of decades, my S.O's fucked other men and women and I fucked other women].

I care about emotional fidelity and loyalty, I don't have a jealous bone in my body and don't care about the physical if the emotional isn't in play.

I hope if my wife ever does find out about how I handle my own little bouts of feeling blue she'll be as forgiving as I am.

Well, I can hope. :)

Golden_Rule
11-30-2009, 05:21 PM
LoL. Says the person who tries not to judge people.

Telling someone "on this they are are all wet" isn't a personal judgment. It is an expression that means the same thing as saying, "On this I totally disagree with you because I don't think you have a leg to stand on."

Jeeze. 8)


Please. You know nothing about me. Your lengthy, sometimes rambling posts in which you so eloquently tell people how horrible they're being to other people doesn't make you more knowledgeable or less "wet". Must be lonely up there on that pedestal. You need a reality check. I don't care how much more experience you think you have, you don't get to tell other people all about what they're doing wrong while committing the disgusting acts you're talking about here.

I don't tell people anything. If I claim I am stating a fact I post why I believe it to be so. Anything that isn't claimed to be a fact is opinion and I state why I think as I do. That is why the posts are so long, as you say. I don't hit and run. If I say something I back it up as to the whys and wherefores and let people take their shots if they think they have better to present than I do. When folks disagree in constructive ways I enjoy the exchanges and if they make a solid point that hits home with me I thank them for it. If they disagree in deplorable ways I still try to stay polite about it in my return, if I return.


You have no idea what I've been through. You have no idea what my life has been like. You have no idea how I grew up. Take your bs statements somewhere else, Im sick of hearing the "you're too young to understand" bull shit from you. I don't have to be older to know that what you're doing is not only morally reprehensible but just plain old wrong. You know this, that's why you don't tell your wife. But hey, follow your "golden rule".

Never claimed I knew anything about you at all. The people judging me know about as much about me as I know about you. Isn't keeping them from making the dialog personal. You either.


May others treat you as well as you have treated them.

I hope so too.. I truly do... because in that department my debt to owed ratio has me very much more good owed than bad.

You really need to relax a bit. This is just a board after all. The invective above sounds like you feel I cheated on YOU.

If you read my response to DJ you will note I know my wife is as imperfect as I am. Just in a different way. I treated her the way I would hope any imperfection of mine would be treated by someone who loves me.

Instead of wishing bad things to you I will just wish you well...

Golden_Rule
11-30-2009, 05:23 PM
Really,GR. Fuck what society thinks. And fuck what we think. All that matters is what you and your wife have agreed too. And that's not necessarily equal and reciprocal, just what you both feel comfortable with and are willing to compromise on.

You mentioned that you would understand if your wife was doing the same things you would. But what would happen if you found out? Is it allowed, discussed? Would you punish her if she did what you're doing. Would you leave?

See my response to DJ's post.

Golden_Rule
11-30-2009, 05:32 PM
"agreed to" being the operative phrase. Which is not what's happening here. It's not really enough to say "well, I would be OK with it if she did what I was doing!" because she hasn't been included in that decision. She doesn't have the option of doing that because he doesn't want to arrange an open relationship, and she doesn't have the option of deciding she doesn't want to be with someone who sleeps around.

How, pardon the expression, the 'F' do you know what we have discussed or not. I haven't gone into detail about what my wife and I discuss between us. I mentioned a tidbit or two about ME and something I do. You are, as usual, jumping to conclusions and dumping on someone because of it.

You are raising the stakes. You have a right to an opinion but you are judging instead. There is a difference. Sorry, no black robes for you. Not this time. :)



Yeah, let's give up on a lost cause and either return to the OP or drop it altogether.

See above. With as little as you actually know about me what ever gave you the idea that you could raise the level of your opinion to that of deciding I am some sort of lost cause.

Please note: When I give opinions about BEHAVIOR I don't judge the people doing it as to their personal worth. I might state a feeling about whether an action is good or bad, but don't raise the level of that opinion to that about the person themselves.

Some of y'all are tossing some mighty hefty stones about considering we all live in glass houses. Every single soul present.

bigmarv
11-30-2009, 05:44 PM
Yeah, it's some sort of energetic thing, I don't know. Orgasms almost feel like a shot of a drug or something to me. They feel great for a minute, but then there is a blah, comedown feeling after. Where as sex just gets me pumped and in a great mood and if I don't cum, I stay that way, and yes I also stay horny but I love it!

I agree with the blah, comedown feeling. It's a really weird feeling I don't completely understand either. But it's good for the ladies at my local SC when I'm extra horny, because I tend to spend more time and money on them. ;D

Golden_Rule
11-30-2009, 05:51 PM
I've been sort of lurking on this post for a day or two now...and I completely agree with Golden Rule that what he does behind the back of his wife is entirely his own business. As a dancer- I know better than anyone what it is like to have someone impose their standards on me. When people ask me for sex in the club- I don't argue with them and try to turn them to the moral right, I just walk away and remind myself it'd be rediculous to get even the tiniest bit upset. It's not my life. Not my problem. I'm not offended, we're really throwin' it out there so it's only natural for guys to ask us....

But as a former and reformed cheater I can tell you it isn't impossible to stop searching for "variety". It does feel like I lost some part of myself though. I can't explain it. I just get very down and depressed sometimes because I "have to be with one person now". As much as I love my boyfriend and want to be with only him- I cannot help but fantasize about having MORE. If any little thing goes wring in my life I look to the confines of our relationship as a culprit and tell myself I'd be happier just screwing around. But it's sad, and I wish I didn't feel that way.

Anyway...yeah stripping can be considered cheating too. Whether they knew about it before you got together or not, you can't turn a blind eye to what the rest of the world is doing. We're all human, we're all in this together. Sometimes I think the fact that I strip is what continually triggers the desire to cheat.

please don't flame me though, just my two cents.

Thank you. For a moment I thought I was the only humanist out there.

I understand what you are dealing with. In my case its hard to be a hedonist in thought and deed and stop because you've fallen in love with someone who isn't. I will say I don't, when things go wrong, put the blame for it on my relationship. I will say that like someone who reaches for comfort food when they are a bit down in the dumps, I "treat myself" to the sexual equivalent of the same thing. Great idea? Probably not. It works though. Perks me right up.

If this makes me an addict, then perhaps I am an addict. I don't currently see it that way. If I ever change my mind about that I'll probably seek out some help for it.

Thank you also for understanding the lack of any credibility in the "your sin is sin, but my sin isn't", retorts I have been getting. People can have opinions but society judges us all. It actually has mechanisms in place to do precisely that. The social norms are the guidelines and someone stating, "What you do is outside MY guidelines so its a bad thing, but since what I do isn't outside of it what I do is OK." is just total BS. What just about everyone in here is doing is ALL outside the guidelines of our society's accepted social norms. So who are any of us to judge the other members here.

Any one of us judging any of the others for violation of social taboos is truly bad form in my opinion.

Thanks again for restoring my faith in the ability of some folks to feel compassion. [especially appreciated since the folks firing the volleys back are particularly vocal souls and you took a chance of getting flamed to do it]

Golden_Rule
11-30-2009, 05:56 PM
... he should expect to get judged by us.

The fact that I expected it, and I did, doesn't mean you have the right to... and that was what I was addressing. Your right to judge.

Having an opinion is one thing. Judging is something else.

You have every right to have an opinion. While you may judge, you have no right to do so.

jack0177057
11-30-2009, 06:57 PM
LoL, what constitutes a "slutty" girl in your opinion?

She's like the dancers that sell extras, except she's not smart enough to make money out of it. She cheats on her boyfriends, and is therefore, not a suitable romantic partner, but she is an excellent sex partner.

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
11-30-2009, 10:51 PM
I don't think that's what humanism is.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 10:25 AM
I don't think that's what humanism is.


Humanism, as I understand it, takes into consideration modality that upholds human reason, ethics and justice; rejecting supernaturalism, superstition and pseudo-sciences.

In other words, it is all about a realistic approach to human existence and behavior.

Human beings aren't perfect creatures. That doesn't mean we can't strive for better but it also means we acknowledge that we are in a continuing evolutionary process and possess all the wonders, and flaws, of our other primate distant cousins. We deal with them as we must but we also forgive, in others, these imperfections as we acknowledge we are imperfect ourselves and would desire such forgiveness from others for our own failings.

We treat others for their failings the way we desire to be treated ourselves for our own, as we are ALL imperfect. That is not an excuse for bad behavior. It is a compelling reason for compassion.

[Translation for the "Dick and Jane" set: If you fuck up I deal with it if it effects me to the point where I must do something about it, but I try to do so with compassion as someday, if I haven't already, I am going to fuck up myself - not a question of if but of when since we will ALL fuck up as we are imperfect - and at that time I will desire to be dealt with compassionately myself.

Now if that isn't a realistic approach to human behavior I don't know what is?]

lemiwinks31
12-01-2009, 02:07 PM
I don't tell people anything. If I claim I am stating a fact I post why I believe it to be so. Anything that isn't claimed to be a fact is opinion and I state why I think as I do. That is why the posts are so long, as you say.


I think she said "Rambling"

JayATee
12-01-2009, 02:32 PM
She's like the dancers that sell extras, except she's not smart enough to make money out of it. She cheats on her boyfriends, and is therefore, not a suitable romantic partner, but she is an excellent sex partner.

So... there's only 2 types of sexual relationships for you, fucking the "slutty" girl or a romantic one.

Wow, your scope is narrow. I think you're no where near as experienced a lover as you believe yourself to be.

I think she said "Rambling"

As a matter of fact I did say rambling, and the entire page 14 of almost nothing but posts by GR proves my point.

Elvia
12-01-2009, 03:01 PM
How, pardon the expression, the 'F' do you know what we have discussed or not. I haven't gone into detail about what my wife and I discuss between us. I mentioned a tidbit or two about ME and something I do. You are, as usual, jumping to conclusions and dumping on someone because of it.

You are raising the stakes. You have a right to an opinion but you are judging instead. There is a difference. Sorry, no black robes for you. Not this time. :)


You yourself have said that you are lying to her. Clearly, from what you have said, your behavior is something you have to hide and not something she knowingly accepts. So yes, my point still stands. There hasn't been an "agreement." When someone comes clean to their partner about the fact that they're not going to be monogamous, that gives their partner the opportunity to either accept he arrangement and enjoy the benefits of a non-monogamous relationship themselves, or opt to find a partner who does want a monogamous relationship. Your wife doesn't have that option, which is extremely unfair.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 03:06 PM
I think she said "Rambling"

Et tu, Brute?

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 03:41 PM
Your wife doesn't have that option, which is extremely unfair.

Agreed. I've said so multiple times in multiple ways.

What part of we are all unfair to each other and its not acceptance of this but compassion in the understanding of it that you missed?

Did you miss where I pointed out in a response to Dj where my Mrs [using her only as an example since it is one I know directly about] was equally unfair to me on the other topic that all experts in the field report as being the only one equivalent to sex in the number of marriages broken up over it? We are all going to F'up sometime. Its not a matter of if, just how and when. As a species we can't seem to help it. There was only one of us, allegedly, who was perfect and he was the son of God. I don't know about you but I don't know too many of those. :) So is it better to knee jerk a response and throw the relationship baby out with the tainted bath water, or do the emotional math and consider how much each cares for the other, if they still do, and whether there is enough of that present with other good stuff to make this imperfection not the most important issue on the table?

My response in our situation was compassion, not judgment. That's all I'd ask from anyone who professed to love me. It is what I am willing to give in return. And from anyone else who doesn't give a crap about me they can judge all their want, even though its not their right to, as its just so much water off a duck's ass to me.

So the personal aspects of this you keep attacking since the point where I used myself as an example [because who else do I know better than myself] I could care less about. It is the intellectual points about humanity, humanist philosophy and the right to judge others that I am trying to make and the ONLY reason I continue in this conversation [if one can call it that].

mediocrity
12-01-2009, 03:43 PM
This is the best justification of cheating I have ever seen.

I may poor man's photoshop up an award for this thread.

Elvia
12-01-2009, 03:50 PM
^^^he's obviously put a lot of work into it.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 04:03 PM
This is the best justification of cheating I have ever seen.

I may poor man's photoshop up an award for this thread.

Because I truly appreciate wit, even when sharp and at my expense, I would accept such honors fully knowledgeable in the sense of the ironic with which they are presented. :)


^^^he's obviously put a lot of work into it.

Yours, not so much. More droll than clever. :)

Elvia
12-01-2009, 04:06 PM
No, I don't put a lot of effort into ways to justify my continued mistreatment of others. I prefer to put my efforts towards striving to be a better person with those I love. Something you claim to do, but obviously don't.

I know you see it as "judging" but it seems clear to me that people are just calling you out on your bullshit. If you want to believe that you really just can't help yourself and this is the best you can do, fine. Don't expect the rest of us to pretend as well.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 04:18 PM
No, I don't put a lot of effort into ways to justify my continued mistreatment of others. I prefer to put my efforts towards striving to be a better person with those I love. Something you claim to do, but obviously don't.

I know you see it as "judging" but it seems clear to me that people are just calling you out on your bullshit. If you want to believe that you really just can't help yourself and this is the best you can do, fine. Don't expect the rest of us to pretend as well.

Ugh... I say red, she reads green.

The comment was as to the wit/cleverness, or lack of it, of your repartee. Not how much effort you put into ways to justify your behavior.

I'd point out as to your latter statement that I presented a belief system/philosophy and the reasons I believe it to have merit. When someone has commented as to that ["Your wife doesn't have that option, which is extremely unfair."] I have stated counter-point to support my argument.

Simply saying its BS doesn't cut the mustard. Its conventional, bourgeoisie, thinking to perceive that stating "that's not how we do it around here" is a proper philosophical argument. One would hope those willing to stake a claim on a philosophical argument might be above that sort of thing. Especially around here, as that sort of thinking is how most folks would damn you, your profession, and everyone in it. ::)

Elvia
12-01-2009, 04:31 PM
Ugh... I say red, she reads green.

The comment was as to the wit/cleverness, or lack of it, of your repartee. Not how much effort you put into ways to justify your behavior.


You seem to have that problem with a lot of people around here. Maybe you should reflect on the possibility that some of that may be on you sometimes.

And yes, I saw what you were trying to do. I chose to make my own point.




I'd point out as to your latter statement that I presented a belief system/philosophy and the reasons I believe it to have merit. When someone has commented as to that [Your wife doesn't have that option, which is extremely unfair.] I have stated counter-point to support my argument.

Simply saying its BS doesn't cut the mustard. Its conventional, bourgeoisie, thinking to perceive that stating "that's not how we do it around here" is a proper philosophical argument. One would hope those willing to stake a claim on a philosophical argument might be above that sort of thing. Especially around here, were that sort of thinking is how most folks would damn you, your profession, and everyone in it.

Yes, I know what you've been doing for all these pages. But it really doesn't change the facts of what you're doing. You know your behavior is unfair, wrong, and even endangers your wife. But you've decided you don't really need to stop. Well, kind of a mix of "I don't want to stop" and "I can't stop." The can't stop part is most certainly bullshit. Even if it is an obsessive behavior that you can't stop on yourown, you know there's help out there for such problems and you choose not to pursue it. People have been explaining the fault in yourlogic and you refuse to acknowledge it. You insist on changing our arguments to things like "that's now how we do it around here." Which isn't what people have been saying at all. There's quite a difference between holding others to social mores that, when broken, do not hurt or betray anyone, and continuing to intentionally do things that you know very well do. You obviously have a lot invested in this delusion.

Justifying continued mistreatment of others is probably never going to go over well. And if you feel that you've come to a logical reasoning that allows you to keep doing so, then yes, I would call that "justifying." The fact that you know it's wrong makes it more inexcusable, not less.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 06:05 PM
You seem to have that problem with a lot of people around here. Maybe you should reflect on the possibility that some of that may be on you sometimes.

Nope. Only a few and always the same ones.


And yes, I saw what you were trying to do. I chose to make my own point.

That's always good. Don't address the point of the person you are responding to... no. ::)


People have been explaining the fault in your logic and you refuse to acknowledge it.

No. They changed the subject and pointed out what I am doing is unfair, which I acknowledged, but isn't the original point.


You obviously have a lot invested in this delusion.

If you reduce another person's opinion to delusion you pass the point where discussion is valid. Your mind is closed to the others POV. Discussion is moot. The only purpose left in a public forum is to lay out ones case for those that follow and they will decide how they feel about it, each for their own self. I have done that to my satisfaction. Nothing more to do here, unless you give me a good reason to think otherwise.


Especially around here, as that sort of thinking is how most folks would damn you, your profession, and everyone in it. ::)

And my comment above in my previous post brings this, at least for me, full circle. Right back to the initial point I made that started this whole line of dialog.

And I wish you well...

Elvia
12-01-2009, 06:13 PM
That's always good. Don't address the point of the person you are responding to... no. ::)



That wasn't a point, it was an off topic insult. Did you want me to defend my cleverness to you? Sorry.

Elvia
12-01-2009, 06:18 PM
If you reduce another person's opinion to delusion you pass the point where discussion is valid. Your mind is closed to the others POV. Discussion is moot.


I'll explain this one last time, even though it will probably do no good. You can't make someone hear something they don't want to hear.

You say you can't help yourself. When it's pointed out to you that there's help available for people who can't control their negative behavior, you say you don't want to pursue it. The fault in that is pretty self-evident.

jack0177057
12-01-2009, 07:08 PM
So... there's only 2 types of sexual relationships for you, fucking the "slutty" girl or a romantic one.

Wow, your scope is narrow. I think you're no where near as experienced a lover as you believe yourself to be.

Lol... What other types of 'sexual relationships' are there besides sex for pure thrill (NSA) and sex with someone you are dating or in a LTR? I guess there is also the fuck-buddy relationship (that's a given in college) and the prostitute-John commercial relationship - I've never done that.

I'd keep on arguing with you, but I want to read what Elvia says next.

jack0177057
12-01-2009, 07:34 PM
You say you can't help yourself. When it's pointed out to you that there's help available for people who can't control their negative behavior, you say you don't want to pursue it.

Also, -- and I'm not taking sides here, -- it is only a "negative behavior" because of the dishonesty and betrayal. Sleeping around with other people is not "negative behavior" if there is a mutual understanding that the relationship is 'open' and both parties are free to seek out lovers separately or together, i.e., become a swinging couple. So, maybe Golden Rule needs to discuss an "alternative lifestyle" with his wife. Who knows,... she might be keen to the idea.

True story (happened to a friend of a friend):

Husband to Wife: Honey, I love you and I always will, but I need to sleep with other women, that's just how I've always been and always will be. I need variety, life's too short. If you want to leave me, I understand. But, if you want to live as my wife, you have to understand and accept me the way I am.

Wife: [Reluctantly] I understand. But, that would have to apply both ways. I can sleep with other men, too, right?

Husband: Well, I hadn't thought of that. I didn't think you'd want to sleep with anyone else. Yeah, I guess... It wouldn't be fair to tell you not to.

Anyway, the husband didn't get as much action as he thought he would get under the new arrangement, but the wife was out nearly every night, and sometimes, didn't return home until the next morning.