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Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 08:43 PM
I'll explain this one last time, even though it will probably do no good. You can't make someone hear something they don't want to hear.

You say you can't help yourself. When it's pointed out to you that there's help available for people who can't control their negative behavior, you say you don't want to pursue it. The fault in that is pretty self-evident.

Except you are misrepresenting what I said. I quite clearly stated its selfish based behavior and I do it because I feel a desire to do so. A want, not a need.

I acknowledged its selfish. I acknowledged its unfair.

The point I was trying to raise had nothing to do with either.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 08:45 PM
Also, -- and I'm not taking sides here, -- it is only a "negative behavior" because of the dishonesty and betrayal.

Precisely what I said. The only part of what I am doing is wrong is that I haven't allowed my wife input into my decision because I haven't told her about it.

My lie is strictly one of omission, but it counts as a lie and I don't claim differently.

kittygirl
12-01-2009, 09:51 PM
Can't possibly read it all, it's nauseating...

If you feel the need to fuck numerous women, don't be with your wife.

What's more important to you?

Yes, I am judging your behavior because you admit to deceiving someone. I like to stick up for the underdog. Many of us have been that person.

You are like those asses on craigslist who want to cheat and feel entitled to have all the pussy they want and still get unconditional love. Obviously the only way you've figured out how to have both is to lie to the one you "love".

Grow some balls and be alone. That way you don't have to give up anything except deceiving someone to get love. If you have to deceive to get love, maybe you really can't deal with the fact that you don't deserve it now, especially from your wife.

You keep this up because you know it deep down.

Golden_Rule
12-01-2009, 10:10 PM
You keep this up because you know it deep down.

Another country heard from.

If you want to comment on the intellectual point I was trying to make I'd certainly like to hear your input. You should know though that your personal opinion about me, and please know I mean no disrespect by this, I could care less about. If you were to go on in that vein you would literally be wasting your time.

Elvia
12-01-2009, 10:10 PM
Also, -- and I'm not taking sides here, -- it is only a "negative behavior" because of the dishonesty and betrayal. Sleeping around with other people is not "negative behavior" if there is a mutual understanding that the relationship is 'open' and both parties are free to seek out lovers separately or together, i.e., become a swinging couple.

Yes...but that has already been pointed out many, many times in this thread.

Elvia
12-01-2009, 10:18 PM
Except you are misrepresenting what I said. I quite clearly stated its selfish based behavior and I do it because I feel a desire to do so. A want, not a need.

I acknowledged its selfish. I acknowledged its unfair.


And you're shocked that people find this repugnant? really?

kittygirl
12-01-2009, 10:19 PM
GR -If you truly didn't care you wouldn't have responded.

Make intellectual points only then. You shared your personal life for a reason.

Does anyone's personal experience really back up an intellectual point. Probably not.

Tell your wife you cheated to make an intellectual point to others, but my guess is she already knows.

Many men believe their lies work. They usually don't. Women's intuition has one up.

I wonder what she has in store for you. Maybe she doesn't really love you and you don't know because she feels sorry for you. Or maybe she is just waiting for a good man. Who knows, but I doubt you are in as much control as you think. Scary, huh?

JayATee
12-01-2009, 10:33 PM
Lol... What other types of 'sexual relationships' are there besides sex for pure thrill (NSA) and sex with someone you are dating or in a LTR? I guess there is also the fuck-buddy relationship (that's a given in college) and the prostitute-John commercial relationship - I've never done that.

I'd keep on arguing with you, but I want to read what Elvia says next.

Ugh, you poor clueless person. You're right, there's no point.

Dirty Ernie
12-01-2009, 11:22 PM
If you fuck up I deal with it if it effects me to the point where I must do something about it, but I try to do so with compassion as someday, if I haven't already, I am going to fuck up myself - not a question of if but of when since we will ALL fuck up as we are imperfect - and at that time I will desire to be dealt with compassionately myself.

Wow, this says alot. So much for your "we are all imperfect" blather. The if indicates you are unsure you have ever fucked up in your life, while the future tense of the bolded phrase shows you really do believe you never have.

I didn't know Jesus lived in Jersey

I do know that fuck up is a relative term, though.


Precisely what I said. The only part of what I am doing is wrong is that I haven't allowed my wife input into my decision because I haven't told her about it.

My lie is strictly one of omission, but it counts as a lie and I don't claim differently.

If this is true, tell your wife you're regularly have sex with other women, and see if she takes issue with only the lying.

But, whatever dude. It's your life and you have to live it. I don't know nuttin bout marriage. Maybe some do work better this way.

kittygirl
12-01-2009, 11:36 PM
Wow, are you a good man?

I haven't seen that in a while or maybe I've been on the internet too long.

I agree, although I wouldn't be so intellectually inclined or kind.

Thanks though on behalf of those that might feel slighted by deceit.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 01:25 AM
GR -If you truly didn't care you wouldn't have responded.

Ummm. Sorry, but no.

I have had every reason to learn, and learn well, that there is no reason to be concerned about the opinions of people who don't matter. Again, I mean no disrespect by that and it works the other way around as well. I don't, or shouldn't, matter to you either. Not on that level anyway. Why would you need validation from the likes of me, some guy typing on a computer you are likely never going to meet in person and if you did you wouldn't even know it was me.

I don't come to strip-clubs or websites seeking validation. No one should. Its not healthy. I get all I need from far more appropriate sources.

So please take this the way I mean it when I say that I am interested in your ideas and what you have to share of your intellect, but don't particularly care about your opinions about me.


Make intellectual points only then. You shared your personal life for a reason.

Yes. The reason was that I wasn't making my point clear so I needed an example to try and make it clearer and since I like to know what I am talking about, and I know me, I choose an example from my own life to make the point. I knew I was going to get jumped on by certain people but as I stated above I don't particularly care about that. They judge, because they enjoy it [they must, the same people do it to everyone here - well everyone they disagree with anyway] or maybe because it makes for a nice hobby. }:D


Does anyone's personal experience really back up an intellectual point. Probably not.

Not in and of itself, probably, no. As an example in a "case in point" scenario... sure it can.


Tell your wife you cheated to make an intellectual point to others, but my guess is she already knows.

Really? Than can I presume her silence is equivilent to tacit approval? :P


Many men believe their lies work. They usually don't. Women's intuition has one up.

I wonder what she has in store for you. Maybe she doesn't really love you and you don't know because she feels sorry for you. Or maybe she is just waiting for a good man. Who knows, but I doubt you are in as much control as you think. Scary, huh?

Now you are starting to sound bitter and making this appear to be more about you than me [when it ought not be about either of us. The people concerned should have allowed me to, as gracefully as possible, make my example to try and prove my point and kept the discussion impersonal. That is what I do in similar circumstances anyway. But these individuals like talking about me. They must because if they didn't when I use an example from my own life in one of these threads they'd just ignore it. Instead we go into one of these parry/thrust, counter-thrust, exchanges. Same people involved all the time. Me and three others with only the ocassional visitor joining momentarily, like yourself, realizing it has no value and quickly moving on. Its become our little game. ::) {place sickly ironic smile emoticon here}

I'm usually the first one of us to sicken of it and bow out.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 01:35 AM
Wow, this says alot. So much for your "we are all imperfect" blather. The if indicates you are unsure you have ever fucked up in your life, while the future tense of the bolded phrase shows you really do believe you never have.

That is a weak argument on multiple levels. As I have admitted to fucking up in any number of posts previous to that one the "if" statement is, and should have been, regarded as license and nothing more.


I didn't know Jesus lived in Jersey

I do know that fuck up is a relative term, though.

Quaint but not particularly clever. Sorry, no style points on this one.



If this is true, tell your wife you're regularly have sex with other women, and see if she takes issue with only the lying.

Don't just tell that to me but the handful of others present who have expressed the same opinion on that issue as I. [that the sex part isn't the problem, but the lack of being upfront about it first is the matter for concern - which I fully concur with]


But, whatever dude. It's your life and you have to live it. I don't know nuttin bout marriage. Maybe some do work better this way.

That is the pithiest bit of the post and spot on.

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 01:35 AM
Puhleez.

If you didn't care you wouldn't dissect my every sentence.

I don't care what you do. You guys are a dime a dozen. I just feel bad for your wife.

Leave it at that.

You got your way through deceit, while honest people live an honest life - many times without someone.

Yes, I don't like your method. Should I? Is it something to aspire to?

No, because you lose everyday when you can't be yourself around anyone but stripperweb. I can be myself everywhere, all the time, and in the end that's very liberating. I never have to hide anything and I usually always have a laugh and a smile for my fellow human beings. It's sweet.

Elvia
12-02-2009, 01:46 AM
Ummm. Sorry, but no.

I have had every reason to learn, and learn well, that there is no reason to be concerned about the opinions of people who don't matter.

Like your wife, evidently.

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 01:48 AM
PS - Please lose the pseudo-intelletual jargon when you're talking about fucking around on your wife.

Am I somehow supposed to get lost in your "intellectualism". What an insult to honest people everywhere.

I pray I never get mixed up in that kind of "marriage" where my husband is rationalizing his assholeness and dirty dick with "big words"...

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 01:54 AM
Puhleez.

If you didn't care you wouldn't dissect my every sentence.

I dissect because you leave a lot dangling out there to work with.


I don't care what you do. You guys are a dime a dozen. I just feel bad for your wife.

As long as she never feels bad about it that is all that matters to me.


Leave it at that.

Oh, if only you would, but likely you wont. You aren't finished just yet [or maybe I said that to manipulate you into stopping... how Machiavellian of me - or maybe I just said that because I truly want you to continue... wait, stop, my brain hurts.] }:D


You got your way through deceit, while honest people live an honest life - many times without someone.

And you know that how? Did you poll several hundred thousand people as a sample to jump to that conclusion? ::)


Yes, I don't like your method. Should I? Is it something to aspire to?

Probably not, but I haven't remotely suggest that you, or anyone else, should.


No, because you lose everyday when you can't be yourself around anyone but stripperweb. I can be myself everywhere, all the time, and in the end that's very liberating. I never have to hide anything and I usually always have a laugh and a smile for my fellow human beings. It's sweet.

Bully for you, but wrong.

You don't know enough about me to make that presumption. People hide things. There are very few exceptions. I am a professional investigator. Give me a little info to start out with and in short order I'd know how many bones were hidden in your closet, but trust me I have no desire to know.

Elvia
12-02-2009, 01:58 AM
And you know that how? Did you poll several hundred thousand people as a sample to jump to that conclusion? ::)



How is it jumping to conclusions to say that honest people live honest lives? Isn't that rather self evident?

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 01:58 AM
Goad me into one last response, as you said.

You keep dissecting because you have a problem with yourself and want to prove otherwise. No one here can help you.

You are on your own. With your deceit. With your lies. And with a wife who doesn't know you.

I'm sorry you're lonely, I'm going to bed.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 02:12 AM
How is it jumping to conclusions to say that honest people live honest lives? Isn't that rather self evident?

That wasn't the whole statement, was it. It was that honest people live honest lives MANY TIMES WITHOUT SOMEONE.

You can't take that stuff piece meal. How the heck could anyone know that?

mediocrity
12-02-2009, 02:18 AM
I guess my whole argument is, you knew what your wife's stipulations were when you married her. Thus, you agreed to said stipulations.

Her values were up front; yours were not. You agreed so you made your own bed, now lie in it. Don't do your own shit when you agreed to someone else's moral contract without discussing yours.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 02:25 AM
Goad me into one last response, as you said.

You keep dissecting because you have a problem with yourself and want to prove otherwise. No one here can help you.

Ok, have it your way. {shrugging shoulders} See, nothings changed. Its your way and everything is still the same which is why it doesn't matter. [again, that works both ways]


You are on your own. With your deceit. With your lies. And with a wife who doesn't know you.

Starting to sound like you are coming to the table with personal issues connected to this topic.


I'm sorry you're lonely, I'm going to bed.

Good night.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 02:51 AM
I guess my whole argument is, you knew what your wife's stipulations were when you married her. Thus, you agreed to said stipulations.

Her values were up front; yours were not. You agreed so you made your own bed, now lie in it. Don't do your own shit when you agreed to someone else's moral contract without discussing yours.

Again. Not faulting the logic of any of that.

Though I will point out the only flaw is that you don't know what we discussed prior to our being married. We lived together for quite a long time and discussed any number or living arrangements and life styles prior to our actually getting married.

In the end we did conclude that monogamy was the only way it was going to work for her. I gave it a good long try. She is an excellent lover but when the sex became less frequent I decided to, rather than have an affair, deal with it as I have. An affair made made no sense as I wasn't interested in further emotional involvement. All I wanted was more sex. Before you ask, yes I talked to her about having more sex first. She said she'd try and than didn't really, but how could I fault her. Her son had died, that's going to impact how a woman feels about everything. I felt horrible to, but if you know anything about men you know that a man who feels blue doesn't want less sex... he wants more. It is a balm and a tonic to us So she was wanting and needing less sex precisely when I was wanting and needing more. Not remotely an ideal situation, but separation or divorce from a woman I still loved passionately so I could get some extra sex that wouldn't have other people thinking badly of me because I was now free to do so... that didn't make sense either.

See more to the story... It is not JUST about my acknowledging that I missed the variety of my swinging days. [In fact when we were having sex regularly I didn't miss that much at all] Still, it doesn't make the omitting right. But I do what I feel I need to do to increase the level of Joy in my life and still have my wife, who I do love very much [again, sorry about how it sounds but nothing personal when I say whether you choose to believe that or not is of no concern to me, I know its true and that's enough]. Like I said, doing what I feel is required to do to survive and be happy hardly makes me unique. In fact it probably makes me quite common, in both the good and bad senses of that phrase.

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 02:59 AM
Ok insomnia, maybe from this...

Is "just sex" so important to you that you would betray a woman who lost her son.

Sounds more like your ego than any need.

Use your hand. (Or a blow up doll). And respect this woman you love "passionately".

Your insecurity seems to drive you. Not sex, please don't include any other being in this equation.

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 03:09 AM
I almost wonder if she hadn't lost her son if you could continue abusing her this way. Whether or not she knows it, you do.

Is it easier to betray someone who has suffered in life?

No man needs pussy that much, soiciobiologists just justify bad behavior. Many men go without for long periods of time without hurt, betrayal, or rape.

No one needs sex to breathe. Yes we all want it, but at the risk of further destroying someone you love and who puts out occasionally. How could it be worth it to be that cruel?

Just be alone, have call girls and chinese food and let her find someone who really cares.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 03:11 AM
Ok insomnia, maybe from this...

Is "just sex" so important to you that you would betray a woman who lost her son.

Sounds more like your ego than any need.

Use your hand. (Or a blow up doll). And respect this woman you love "passionately".

Your insecurity seems to drive you. Not sex, please don't include any other being in this equation.

Again, have it your way. And again, notice nothing has changed.

In the words of Yoda [not our Yoda, the small green guy from Star Wars], "Keep my own counsel on this, I will."


I almost wonder if she hadn't lost her son if you could continue abusing her this way. Whether or not she knows it, you do.

Is it easier to betray someone who has suffered in life?

No man needs pussy that much, soiciobiologists just justify bad behavior. Many men go without for long periods of time without hurt, betrayal, or rape.

No one needs sex to breathe. Yes we all want it, but at the risk of further destroying someone you love and who puts out occasionally. How could it be worth it to be that cruel?

Just be alone, have call girls and chinese food and let her find someone who really cares.

Wow! Sounding truly personal now. Who hurt you?

Sorry, I asked... none of my business.


===================


The silly policy wonk stuff I have been writing for another consultant is finally finished now [I do it at night because I find it easier in the still and quiet, but I find it helpful to take breaks from it. Its pretty heavy stuff, and the lighter writing over here helps break it up]. Thank you all for the exchanges, even the less than polite ones, and now it is I who is going to have a bowl of cereal, walk the dogs one last time, and off to bed I go.

Good night all. I do wish you all well...[yeah El, even you. :) ]

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 03:16 AM
Yeah, I will have it my way.

I think you keep saying that because you have nothing else to say.

So sad. I hope your wife meets someone nice who has more respect for her than his penile fantasies and need to abuse her.

You cannot possibly feel good about yourself. Christ, I feel bad if I don't hold the door open for someone...

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 03:29 AM
Oh one last pistachio before I go.


I think you keep saying that because you have nothing else to say.

I keep saying it because its true. Has your position changed? Has mine? Has a lightening bolt from the sky struck either of us? Nothing has changed. It hasn't changed because your opinion of me, like my opinion of you, effects neither of us.


You cannot possibly feel good about yourself.

The above is precisely where you go off the tracks. How can you possible figure you have the right to presume what someone else should feel about themselves?

What a totally arrogant position to assume. Its amazing in it boldness. I congratulate you. You have managed to astound me and that isn't easy to do.

Now, this time I mean it, good night. :)

kittygirl
12-02-2009, 03:53 AM
Spare me your good nights and your pistachios.

If I didn't know better (which I do) I think you keep using the term of endearment "good night" because you like that someone calls you out and you are lonely. Oh, and I attract jerks.

Yes I presume you feel like crap unless you are a sociopath, in which case you wouldn't feel anything.

But, I think you opened up because you want someone to like you as you really are.

Sorry, I still don't. What you have done to your wife is cruel.

Like I said, be alone, get call girls and chinese food. Oh, and be happy because that's as much love as you can get without actually loving someone back. That's what love is for, people who care about the person they're with. It's a sweet if not so sexy thing.

I imagine you now crawling in bed with your sleeping wife having stayed up so long to avoid her (6am ET). Clue - if she knows, she wakes up just about the time you slither in bed.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 02:31 PM
Spare me your good nights and your pistachios.

If I didn't know better (which I do) I think you keep using the term of endearment "good night" because you like that someone calls you out and you are lonely. Oh, and I attract jerks.

Yes I presume you feel like crap unless you are a sociopath, in which case you wouldn't feel anything.

But, I think you opened up because you want someone to like you as you really are.

Sorry, I still don't. What you have done to your wife is cruel.

Like I said, be alone, get call girls and chinese food. Oh, and be happy because that's as much love as you can get without actually loving someone back. That's what love is for, people who care about the person they're with. It's a sweet if not so sexy thing.

I imagine you now crawling in bed with your sleeping wife having stayed up so long to avoid her (6am ET). Clue - if she knows, she wakes up just about the time you slither in bed.

It is only my opinion and as such not anything to you, nor am I suggesting that ought to be different, but I am fairly certain you have issues.

P.S.: Not for nothing, but just because I feel like pointing it out. "Good Night" is not a term of endearment. It is a term of courtesy, and in this case noblesse oblige. Example: If I said it to Earl as I signed off would it be a term of endearment?

jack0177057
12-02-2009, 03:30 PM
Yes...but that has already been pointed out many, many times in this thread.

Oh,... I didn't read the entire thread... Its too long... Can someone provide a cliff notes version?

lemiwinks31
12-02-2009, 03:36 PM
Oh,... I didn't read the entire thread... Its too long... Can someone provide a cliff notes version?

Sure:

there seem to be 2 points of view.

1. I am not a low life dirtbag when I continually lie and cheat on my wife, because I can justify it to myself in incredibly long, rambling posts.

2. Yes you are.

Golden_Rule
12-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Sure:

there seem to be 2 points of view.

1. I am not a low life dirtbag when I continually lie and cheat on my wife, because I can justify it to myself in incredibly long, rambling posts.

2. Yes you are.

That's what you got out of my posts? That is what you reduce it all to?

Do you have a girl-friend, wife, boy friend? Do you go to strip-clubs? Ever tip the woman in her bra or g-string? By society's rules you're cheating. Ever get a table dance and touch the dancer anywhere? By society's rules you are cheating. Ever get a lap dance? By society's rules you are way over the line now.

So if any of that is true YOU are a cheater too. There are no "levels of cheating". Cheating is cheating. Tell your S.O. about it? No. Well then you are a cheater and a liar too.

And if any of the above is true and you reduce my comments to your little one sentence toss off above, you a cheater, a liar AND a hypocrite. Welcome to the club.

jack0177057
12-02-2009, 05:56 PM
^^^ I'm not judging you,... but I think what rubs some people (i.e., women) the wrong way is your efforts to justify your cheating. If you expressed shame, guilt and self-loathing you'd get more sympathy. Try starting a new thread on the Life Support forum - 'I hate myself for cheating on my amazing wife, but I can't stop myself'. You'll get a lot more sympathy (albeit not approval).

Also, there most certainly are levels of "cheating".... If my GF found out about the lap dances I get at the SC, she would be moderately pissed off, but it wouldn't destroy our relationship. (She knows I occasionally visit with friends, but doesn't know about the full extent of the hospitality there.) Also, I am not subjecting my GF to the risk of STDs by getting lap dances.

On the other hand, if I was having sex with other women, I would be subjecting my GF to STDs and, if she found out about it, it would be devastating to her and it would most likely destroy our relationship.

Not that I'm justifying my "cheating" by getting lap dances,... I hate myself for getting lap dances, but I cannot stop myself.

charlie61
12-02-2009, 06:24 PM
Uh...I think most couples differentiate between tipping a stripper (public entertainment) and cheating emotionally/physically with someone. I mean...seriously? Don't you get it, GR? As long as you aren't lying, it isn't cheating.

ETA: I think lap dances (depending on the type of dance received and depending on if your significant other is aware of your getting dances) can qualify as cheating. But, as aforementioned, it depends.

mediocrity
12-02-2009, 06:39 PM
^^^ I'm not judging you,... but I think what rubs some people (i.e., women) the wrong way is your efforts to justify your cheating. If you expressed shame, guilt and self-loathing you'd get more sympathy. Try starting a new thread on the Life Support forum - 'I hate myself for cheating on my amazing wife, but I can't stop myself'. You'll get a lot more sympathy (albeit not approval).

Also, there most certainly are levels of "cheating".... If my GF found out about the lap dances I get at the SC, she would be moderately pissed off, but it wouldn't destroy our relationship. (She knows I occasionally visit with friends, but doesn't know about the full extent of the hospitality there.) Also, I am not subjecting my GF to the risk of STDs by getting lap dances.

On the other hand, if I was having sex with other women, I would be subjecting my GF to STDs and, if she found out about it, it would be devastating to her and it would most likely destroy our relationship.

Not that I'm justifying my "cheating" by getting lap dances,... I hate myself for getting lap dances, but I cannot stop myself.

Jack, you are spot on. Thank you.

Elvia
12-02-2009, 10:21 PM
That wasn't the whole statement, was it. It was that honest people live honest lives MANY TIMES WITHOUT SOMEONE.

You can't take that stuff piece meal. How the heck could anyone know that?


I don't think it's incorrect to say "many." If she had said most, or even given a statistic, you might have a point. But "many?" Nah. Unless you think that only a very small minority of "honest" people are ever without a partner, your criticism makes no sense.

Anyway, I think her point was that a person who truly values honesty would choose to be alone over being in a relationship that depended on deceiving their partner.

JayATee
12-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Lol... You have something to teach me? If you can teach,... I'm willing to learn... [Takes his seat, grabs a pen and paper, and looks up at Ms. JayATee standing in the front of the classroom next to the chalkboard.]

Nothing I would to teach you would require a pen or paper. That much I guarantee. However, I don't teach, which is why my husband and I get along so well... he already knew what I liked.


GR-
Justify it whatever way you need to in order to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. You obviously don't give a damn about anyone but yourself, and Im sure that's evident in other aspects of your life as well. That's cool. What goes around comes around. Continue your bs. No one here is capable of making you see yourself for what you are, and quite frankly, regardless of whether or not you expressed shame, guilt and self-loathing in your posts, you wouldn't change your behaviour anyway, so who really cares what you have to say at this point?

Golden_Rule
12-03-2009, 01:08 PM
^^^ I'm not judging you,... but I think what rubs some people (i.e., women) the wrong way is your efforts to justify your cheating.

And I think what is rubbing them the wrong way is their misinterpretation of what I am saying, which leads them to think I am trying to justify cheating.

What part of my acknowledgment of "If you are lying to your partner about having sex outside of your relationship it is wrong." isn't getting through?

The ONLY two points I am trying to make is that:

1) While its wrong there is so much about our society that is just plain fucked up when it comes to relationships that we all have our own skeletons in our closets to think about. So much so that, barring the exception that proves the rule, its not a matter of when a person in a committed relationship is going to fuck up in some fairly big way, but when. Given that it would seem that compassion might be the better response since its what we will want ourselves when its our turn in the hopper [and we'll all get there].

2) Under the rules of OUR SOCIETY's social norms "cheating" covers about 90+% of what goes on in a strip-club so this audience, more than others, ought to understand #1.


If you expressed shame, guilt and self-loathing you'd get more sympathy. Try starting a new thread on the Life Support forum - 'I hate myself for cheating on my amazing wife, but I can't stop myself'. You'll get a lot more sympathy (albeit not approval).


BTW, I am not seeking sympathy or approval. My only intent is a clinical dialog on an interesting social topic that is related to the strip-club industry, since a lot of cheating goes on in strip-clubs.

Golden_Rule
12-03-2009, 01:14 PM
Uh...I think most couples differentiate between tipping a stripper (public entertainment) and cheating emotionally/physically with someone. I mean...seriously? Don't you get it, GR? As long as you aren't lying, it isn't cheating.

Please note the above. And add to it that I didn't say just tipping. I specifically reference placing the tip in a place which would be consider sexual on the strippers body. ie, inside her bra or inside her g-string. Feeling up a woman other than your mate is considered, by our society's social norms, to be cheating.

Golden_Rule
12-03-2009, 01:23 PM
GR-
Justify it whatever way you need to in order to be able to look at yourself in the mirror.

Please see post to Jack above.

I truly wish people would read ONLY what I am intending and not put their own spin on it. No where am I attempting to justify cheating. I'm not even addressing cheating. I am talking about the responses to cheating and what might work best for most folks given the current data on major fuck ups in relationships in the US [usually about either sex outside the marriage or large amounts of money being taken without the knowledge or consent of the other partner - those are the big two, but anything that might be considered a major fuck up in a relationship] and the hypocritical overload of not understand that in a forum made up of strip-club performers and their clients.

And that is all I was addressing and I am doing so because it is [or ought to be] an interesting topic considering the general subject matter of these forums on this site.

My mistake being to have the courage and honesty to use myself as a case in point to help explain what I was driving at.

No where in my part in this dialog is their a justification for having sex outside of a relationship without your partner's knowledge and prior consent.

JEEZE! ::)

dangerousdiva
12-03-2009, 02:44 PM
I find it interesting that GR has the most posts in a thread regarding the "Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm".

It's made it quite frustrating to read through the thread, because every time I come to one of his posts I find myself going "blah, blah, blah" in my head and onto the next one in order to avoid aggravation. However, when he has 3 long winded posts in a row, over and over throughout the thread, it's almost made the whole thread "blah, blah, blah".

Can you just shut up and let someone else speak instead of taking over every thread with your meaningless diatribes?

Since he's currently running second in the "male prostitute" thread, he's probably about to do the same thing over there!

Ugh, so frustrating!

Elvia
12-03-2009, 03:48 PM
And I think what is rubbing them the wrong way is their misinterpretation of what I am saying, which leads them to think I am trying to justify cheating.

What part of my acknowledgment of "If you are lying to your partner about having sex outside of your relationship it is wrong." isn't getting through?

The ONLY two points I am trying to make is that:

1) While its wrong there is so much about our society that is just plain fucked up when it comes to relationships that we all have our own skeletons in our closets to think about. So much so that, barring the exception that proves the rule, its not a matter of when a person in a committed relationship is going to fuck up in some fairly big way, but when. Given that it would seem that compassion might be the better response since its what we will want ourselves when its our turn in the hopper [and we'll all get there].

2) Under the rules of OUR SOCIETY's social norms "cheating" covers about 90+% of what goes on in a strip-club so this audience, more than others, ought to understand #1.




BTW, I am not seeking sympathy or approval. My only intent is a clinical dialog on an interesting social topic that is related to the strip-club industry, since a lot of cheating goes on in strip-clubs.

Jesus Christ. We know what you're saying. You've repeated yourself enough to make sure of that, and then some.

People just don't really think your situation is worthy of compassion. You betray someone you profess to love again and again and have no intention of stopping. That's a far cry from just making a mistake, acknowledging it, and changing the behavior. Which is what a decent person does when they realize they've done something that's a betrayal to someone they love. Your decision to continue your bad behaviorisn't something that's worthy of compassion.

Most people make a distinction between breaking a taboo that both they and their partner doesn't care about, and knowingly and continually betraying your partner's trust. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's true, and there's very valid reasons for it.

In summery, it's not that people don't understand what you're saying. They still find your behavior repugnant.

Golden_Rule
12-03-2009, 03:53 PM
I find it interesting that GR has the most posts in a thread regarding the "Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm".

It's made it quite frustrating to read through the thread, because every time I come to one of his posts I find myself going "blah, blah, blah" in my head and onto the next one in order to avoid aggravation. However, when he has 3 long winded posts in a row, over and over throughout the thread, it's almost made the whole thread "blah, blah, blah".

Can you just shut up and let someone else speak instead of taking over every thread with your meaningless diatribes?

Since he's currently running second in the "male prostitute" thread, he's probably about to do the same thing over there!

Ugh, so frustrating!

I see others doing the same thing and you know what I do if I don't want to read them.

I don't read them.

Takes less than a second to skip over a thread by an author you've come to know you don't want to read. Unless, of course, you are an individual with no self-control.

Golden_Rule
12-03-2009, 04:00 PM
Jesus Christ. We know what you're saying. You've repeated yourself enough to make sure of that, and then some.

People just don't really think your situation is worthy of compassion. You betray someone you profess to love again and again and have no intention of stopping. That's a far cry from just making a mistake, acknowledging it, and changing the behavior. Which is what a decent person does when they realize they've done something that's a betrayal to someone they love. Your decision to continue your bad behaviorisn't something that's worthy of compassion.

Most people make a distinction between breaking a taboo that both they and their partner doesn't care about, and knowingly and continually betraying your partner's trust. I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's true, and there's very valid reasons for it.

In summery, it's not that people don't understand what you're saying. They still find your behavior repugnant.

I don't like it or dislike it. In fact I am totally dispassionate about the subject as express in this forum. My only desire to share here was clinical in nature.

Like I said, my mistake was in using myself as an example to try to make the explain the point I was trying to make. Perhaps if I hadn't this would have stayed clinical [though with you involved I doubt it].

================================

[Moved to blue as I don't want to be disrespectful of pink and its more appropriate over there]

Elvia
12-03-2009, 04:03 PM
I don't like it or dislike it. In fact I am totally dispassionate about the subject as express in this forum. My only desire to share here was clinical in nature.

Like I said, my mistake was in using myself as an example to try to make the explain the point I was trying to make. Perhaps if I hadn't this would have stayed clinical [though with you involved I doubt it].


Perhaps there in lies the problem. You're trying to be "clinical" about cheating on your wife.

Also, interesting how you say you feel bad about it, but then openly joke about it.

http://forum.stripperweb.com/showthread.php?t=137218

If you're not even going to act contrite about it, I'm not sure why you expect "compassion" to factor in for anyone but your wife.

Almost Jaded
12-03-2009, 06:33 PM
Wow. Apparently it is still possible to completely derail a perfectly good thread even in Cyrils absence. Who knew?!

Why oh why was I absent from these wonderful boards for so long... Hell, I missed the triumph that was Cyrils first banning, after risking my own to see it happen...

Okay, so OT...

Why is this so "controversial" a topic - insofar as there is misunderstanding and expressions of disdain and/or frustration, etc, all through the topic (which took me a couple of hour to read - jeez!)? It's really NOT hard to figure out.

Barring disfigurement or injury or VERY rare medical malformations/mutations, all women are wired basically the same way, as are all men basically identical in this manner. Respecting the aforementioned exceptions, women are wired for both vaginal and clitoral stimulation, and are wired for multiple orgasm.

THAT SAID - in actual practice, sex is NOT a 'one size (pardon the pun, lol) fits all' proposition, and in practice, all women are different by at least a little bit, sometimes a lot. Psychology has a lot to do with it. Sleep patterns and diet and lifestyle and probably solar flares do, too. Any man who doesn't recognize this isn't going to get accolades as a fantastic and versatile lover.

BUT - women themselves undermine their pleasure at the hands (or tongue or cock or whatever - lol) of their male lovers more often than naught. So many times in this thread I'm reading "but I would NEVER share those fantasies with my lover" or some such! FOR SHAME! The best 5 words EVER spoken to me were from a short-term girlfriend when I was 21 years old. Those words were "Stop - you're doing it wrong". Whomever posted the Sam Kinisen quote was right on, lol. Not only was I a willing and apt pupil under her tutelage, but of every woman I've been with since, which is not just a few. And the difference between an extraordinary sexual encounter and a so-so or even bad one (all other variables being equal) is COMMUNICATION. By both parties - but let's face it, mostly the woman because guys ARE easier to "satisfy".

Which brings up something else entirely - the male orgasm. I truly believe that fewer men actually ORGASM than women. WTF you ask?! Well, when a guy "gets off" or "comes", there's a definite sense of pleasure and endorphin rush and cool sensations. And I truly think MOST men think this is an orgasm. I always did. UNTIL I HAD A REAL ONE. Oh. My. God. Just no comparison. Or maybe men DO orgasm when ejaculating, and that's equivalent to what girls call a "little one". Whatever - once I discovered the mystery of the male orgasm, my sex life changed again, and again for the better. I truly wonder how many men - who won't talk about that kind of thing as openly as most women amongst themselves believe it or not - have ever worked past the "first" kind and experienced the second?

Oh my - so mny other things brought up in 16 pages.... How to cover even some of them...

Oh - the whole GR mess. GR - 50 lashes with a wet noodle. Now go have an honest conersation with your wife. Bad ex-cop, no donut. Whatever. The rest of you (Except peachplumpear - interested to hear more from you in general. Well-put post back there.) - meaning Elvia and JD and Med and Jay and Kitty and Strawberry and and and... Who else? Too many of you. ANyway - THE REST OF YOU - I am curios to see if I get any takers on this one. See below.

I would like to see if any one of you can post ONE completely honest, bad thing you've done or still do, about which you've lied or continue to lie to your SO. Faking an orgasm. Hating their hobby or pet. Secretly thinking about George Cloony when he's doing you from behind. Cheating. "Not cheating" - i..e., cybersex, phone sex, etc - how about talking to an ex that they don't approve of and having "wishful moments" and whatnot? Little things, big things, SOMETHING.

I am NOT defending GR. I AM throwing out a BLATANT "cast the first stone" scenario - you may disapprove of his lying to his wife and his dalliances, but the character judgements I'm seeing are terrible, and shame on all of you for it. Take my challenge, and subject each other to the same scrutiny and judgement you've leveled at him.

Really - I want to see this. Not a rhetorical challenge. Let's start another thread for it - I'll make it right after this post. Game on. :evil:

KiwiStrawberry Splenda
12-03-2009, 06:37 PM
Ha! Try telling most men "you're doing it wrong" about any act that hits close to his ego. Then, no one is going to get anymore pleasure.

Boys can be such delicate creatures.


I would like to see if any one of you can post ONE completely honest, bad thing you've done or still do, about which you've lied or continue to lie to your SO.

I have lots of secrets from my BF. We had a talk about it, I told him I'm an open book, anything he wants to know. Once he heard a few things, he asked me to say no more, he didn't want to know, and would prefer to think of me as more innocent. And by innocent, I don't mean inexperienced or frigid...he just didn't want to hear about my former sexual exploits, nor about some of the crazy things that have happened in my stripping life.

So, per his request, I don't say anything.



Is that good enough?


Which brings up something else entirely - the male orgasm. I truly believe that fewer men actually ORGASM than women. WTF you ask?! Well, when a guy "gets off" or "comes", there's a definite sense of pleasure and endorphin rush and cool sensations. And I truly think MOST men think this is an orgasm. I always did. UNTIL I HAD A REAL ONE. Oh. My. God. Just no comparison. Or maybe men DO orgasm when ejaculating, and that's equivalent to what girls call a "little one". Whatever - once I discovered the mystery of the male orgasm, my sex life changed again, and again for the better. I truly wonder how many men - who won't talk about that kind of thing as openly as most women amongst themselves believe it or not - have ever worked past the "first" kind and experienced the second?

In my extensive experience, when men orgasm with me, they tend to go fucking wild and lose it completely. I'm pretty sure its real..eyes roll back in the head, hands and feet clench and unclench, mouth movements are wacky, they scream for Jesus, whatever....

I don't know about "little ones". In fact, I don't believe in little ones, and think that anyone who thinks they have little ones is deluding themselves into thinking they have orgasmed when they are not, often because they want to please their partner into thinking they have vaginal orgasms triggered purely by him penetrating her vagina. But that's just my opinion, its not very popular. I can't test people out and I can't make them honest with themselves.

Almost Jaded
12-03-2009, 06:50 PM
Thank you for the attempt, but no. MM and I have a policy of 100% honesty. And we enforce it rigorously. We also catch ourselves lying to each other and ourselves WAY more than either of us thought possible! The concept of COMPLETE honesty is REALLY hard to grasp until you REALLY try to put it into practice - and then you see just how often you tell little white ones to get y in day to day life! So - while I don't doubt you as a person or your arrangement, I KNOW - FOR A FACT - that there is something that you know your BF would want to know about or should know about that you don't tell him for fear of the outcome. I know this because you are a human being in a relationship, not becuase I think ill of you. Please take it to the new thread, though. ;)

As for the first part - you are very correct, and sadly so. Same is true for women, though - "will you tell me if I start to get fat?" "Sure honey, you know we have that kind of communication". LMFAO - RIGHT. THAT'S going to happen. I have actually done it. And lived through the consequences of doing what they asked me to do in this regard. MM is the only one wha actually responded "Yeah, I know, I was hoping to hit the gym before you had to say something, but I was lazy and I'm sorry you had to say it". But, I'm marrying her for a reason, LOL. Point being - guys suck at taking directions, and girls suck at being upfront bout giving them. Guess what? Guys suck at giving them and girls at taking them, too. Have a really frank discussion with an ex about it - very few ongoing relationships can have the completely frank version at the first attempt, lol. Just call up an ex with whom you were with for a while, and have a weird honest sex talk. You will be amazed what you did wrong, and what they didn't know they were doing wrong, and so on. ;)

peachplumpear
12-03-2009, 10:25 PM
Just call up an ex with whom you were with for a while, and have a weird honest sex talk. You will be amazed what you did wrong, and what they didn't know they were doing wrong, and so on. ;)

I'm not going to do this- but if I did, I would tell my ex that his foreskin had an horribly awful smell that could make me gag. Thats probably something he should know. I hope his newer girlfriends clued him in.

And he would tell me- that my asshole is funner when it's shaved.
(I discovered that on my own when I started dancing)

Almost Jaded
12-03-2009, 10:28 PM
See - perfect example! Why the hell wouldn't you tell him that when you were with him?! Then you wouldn't dislike his cock, sex would more enjoyable for both of you... See how this works? :)