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ArmySGT.
11-11-2009, 10:50 PM
With that, I leave this discussion because people who are set in their ways usually stay that way. Only varied experiences can change a mind or create a complex understanding of things. Some people aren't fortunate enough to walk a mile in others' shoes or personally know that bad things happen to hard working good people.

Ha ha ha. Leaving a thread because everyone doesn't agree with you, and touting this garbage as the reason. That is precious.

kittygirl
11-11-2009, 11:32 PM
OK, I'm back to indulge.

No I didn't bow out because people don't agree with (actually I couldn't find that post and figured it was deleted).

Partly I did it because of the drama over dollar den getting too political for some.

The other reason is because I find that some brains are just set in their ways. These same brains pull info out of their or someone else's butt to "back up" their dogma.

A wise woman once told me to choose my battles, so I do.

No point in trying to explain to someone who is using a form of national health care not because she has cancer or a terminal condition but wanted a good lay and calls it the American way yet doesn't have the compassion to understand that sick people might need health care too.

For the right wingers who support this argument, well I'll let you type til your fingers fall off.

eagle2
11-11-2009, 11:36 PM
(snip)
^^^ so if you actually sort through the statistic, here's what you actually find ...

A. of the 46 million Americans who are allegedly without health insurance, 10 million are not American citizens

The number, 46 million, is from 2007. The number is probably much higher now, given the state of the economy.



B1. of the 36 million American citizens who are allegedly without health insurance, some are actually without health insurance for only a small portion of the year ( i.e. changing jobs, and choosing not to purchase 'gap' medical insurance coverage via COBRA before their new employer's insurance coverage kicks in )

B2. but of that 36 million, 14 million Americans ARE ELIGIBLE to receive health insurance under an existing gov't program like SCHIP, and will be immediately signed up for such a program the minute they incur a major medical expense

C. of the remaining 22 million American citizens, 18 million are young residents of states which 'mandate' that all health insurance policies sold in that state must cover a huge range of 'medical treatments', from mental health to substance abuse to in-vitro fertilization etc. - who CHOOSE to self-insure rather than being forced to pay for extremely expensive health insurance premiums for areas of state 'mandated' coverage that they do not want or need. They often do this via Health Savings Accounts, which is basically a tax-exempt form of self-insurance. But HSA self-insurance is not counted as a legitimate form of health insurance under the statistic. Put another way, if their particular state allowed the sale of 'catastrophic only' insurance coverage with a premium costing $60 a month these young people would probably buy it, but if their state only allows the sale of 'minimum coverage' insurance that is forced to cover mental illness treatments, substance abuse treatments, in-vitro fertilizations etc. at a cost of $200+ a month these young people would rather save the money and take their chances.

How do you know these 18 million Americans CHOOSE to self insure rather than being unable to obtain insurance for financial or other reasons?

From:

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/06/the-real-uninsured/

(snip)
So it’s true that many of the uninsured could, in theory, spare the $3,354 average annual employee contribution for employer-sponsored family coverage, or even the $5,799 average premium for individually purchased family coverage. But it’s also true that 66 percent of the uninsured make less than 200 percent of the poverty level according to KFF, which is less than $42,406 for a family of four in 2007. And a family’s premium costs may actually be much higher than the average for individually purchased insurance, depending on the number of dependents, the ages of family members, their state of health and the state in which they live. For instance, the average annual premium for individually purchased family coverage in Massachusetts, according to America’s Health Insurance Plans’ Center for Policy and Research, was $16,897 in 2006-2007 (before the state changed its insurance plan), and in New York it was $12,254.

Furthermore, even those who can afford coverage cannot always get it. AHIP found that 72 percent of 2006 applications for health insurance were eventually approved, while the rest were withdrawn, not processed, or denied for medical or non-medical reasons. And of those who got coverage, 11 percent had to pay a higher rate than requested.
(snip)




D. the remaining 4 million American citizens who do not have health insurance are a mish-mash of different personal situations. But the largest one is probably (near) minimum wage workers whose employers cannot afford to provide them with health insurance but who earn too much money to qualify for MedicAid. However, if such (near) minimum wage persons were to actually develop expensive major health problems, they only need to quit their job to become eligible for MedicAid coverage ... and if the health problem is that serious / expensive odds are they would be unable to work anyhow.(snip)

Again, you're assuming that 18 million Americans choose not to be insured when it is very possible that they want to be insured but cannot afford it.

The issue isn't just the number of people that don't have insurance. The issue is also the number of people who are suffering and dying because they don't have insurance and are unable to obtain medical treatment. According to a Harvard study, nearly 45,000 Americans die each year as a result of not having health insurance.

http://www.harvardscience.harvard.edu/medicine-health/articles/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-lack-health-coverage