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Laurisa
11-13-2009, 04:37 PM
If Melonie had gotten ahold of that article before you she could have made it seem a lot more relevant. :laughing: She humors me but I really admire her.

Paris
11-13-2009, 04:42 PM
If Melonie had gotten ahold of that article before you she could have made it seem a lot more relevant. :laughing: She humors me but I really admire her.

I was just making the point that any old random thing could be argued as valuable to strippers financial information needs. I literally selected that article at random and applied some basic propaganda tools to it to make it look like it was a relevant issue to strippers.

I guess what I'm asking is what is the scope of Dollar Den? Is it the Melonie and EricStoner lovefest 24/7 or is it supposed to be useful to the majority of members?

Elvia
11-13-2009, 04:44 PM
Paris- maybe you should link to the poll?

Paris
11-13-2009, 04:50 PM
I didn't vote in this poll because I didn't want to skew the results at all.

Poll in Lounge link (http://forum.stripperweb.com/showthread.php?t=136634)

Vamp
11-13-2009, 06:28 PM
Thank you for your contributions, they are very much appreciated, for a long time now. :D


Thank you so much .... I really do apperciate that :)

hockeybobby
11-13-2009, 07:13 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2009/11/13/real_estate/first-timers_leading_housing/index.htm

Oh, this was too easy!

Dancers, feather your nest and build your nest egg!

The government has extended the 1st time home buyers credit into 2010. Housing prices are also at historic lows, and with the government giving away $8000 to every 1st time home buyer, the time is now to invest in your first home.

This highly effective stimulus cash has been responsible for 47% of all housing sales since it's inception.This program has stopped the housing market hemorrhaging and has stabilized housing prices, but not before some regions saw a loss of up to 50% of market value.

We can thank Obama for making home buying extremely attractive to exotic dancers. Without this particular stimulus action, who knows how bad things would have gotten?



See, I can put a political spin on a totally non-interest story to dancers and spur a debate in the merits of the stim. This is what Dollar Den has been doing, and it is a dis-service to our membership.

Well, interesting...this is the new thing in Dollar Den now. Used to be just endless negative threads slamming government or liberals. Now Mel is careful to point out just how negatively it affects dancers in particular. That's just perfect.

Call me naive if you like, but I fail to see how being endlessly afraid, or angry, or cynical is good for anyone, let alone dancers who are, afterall, salespeople requiring a positive mental attitude to do their jobs well.

Melonie
11-14-2009, 12:55 AM
Call me naive if you like, but I fail to see how being endlessly afraid, or angry, or cynical is good for anyone, let alone dancers

The flip side of course is that there might actually be very real reasons to be afraid ... afraid for one's own economic future, and more importantly afraid for our childrens' economic future.

There also might just be valid reasons for cynicism ... starting with the uncontestable facts that both 'official' gov't economic statistics as well as the balance sheets of gov't sponsored entities and major financial houses are now 'cooked' to the point of wilful distortion.



maybe you should link to the poll

... bread and circuses ...



If Melonie had gotten ahold of that article before you she could have made it seem a lot more relevant

Paris, you opened the door on the issue of subsidized mortgages and first time home purchases. How about finishing what you started ?

- who pays for the dancer's $8000 first time homebuyer tax credit ? Basic answer, her customers ( via higher future taxes ), and herself ( via higher future taxes)

- what is the probability that the 'real value' of a newly purchased home at today's prices will actually be worth more in a couple of years than it cost to buy ?

- what are the newly introduced hurdles a dancer is going to face when attempting to get approval for a new mortgage loan ?

- what will the total costs of home ownership look like over the next couple of years compared to the costs of renting ?



I guess what I'm asking is what is the scope of Dollar Den

IMHO one raison d'etre for Dollar Den was to try and help serious professional dancers to get 'ahead of the curve'.

Also, Dollar Den 'owes a responsibility' to all dancers to provide them with correct information re taxes, basic structures and risks of various investment classes etc.

also, IMHO, if all you want is 'positive' economic news, which glosses over deeper issues, there are already an abundance of media outlets serving this up on a daily basis.


As for 'lovefests', it should be immediately obvious that there are different 'schools' represented by Dollar Den posters ... with the 'school' represented by Eric Stoner, myself, and to some extent Deogol, Stuart etc. being in the minority. However, where economics is concerned, a 'majority vote' confers zero factual validity ... and in fact the 'majority' of market investors are usually wrong !

~

Mr Hyde
11-14-2009, 04:23 PM
Do you mean a little thing called reality? ::) Some of us like to be prepared for the repercussions, not shocked and confused when the government makes bad choices.

I -think- (but am not sure) that the purpose of the DD is to trade practical information about how to handle money and finances. Instead, what it has become is a place to read about how the US is going down the tubes because of our crappy fiscal policies.

Honestly, I agree with much of what Melonie writes and I share her libertarian views. I do, however, think she has some tin foil hat wearing tendencies and is a gloom and doomer...and in any case, if the purpose of the DD is to provide practical money advice, then that stuff doesn't belong.

Mr Hyde
11-14-2009, 04:31 PM
also, IMHO, if all you want is 'positive' economic news, which glosses over deeper issues, there are already an abundance of media outlets serving this up on a daily basis.



~

I don't think anyone has made an argument about wanting positive economic news...I think the argument is, if the news is not directly related to practical, everyday advice related to handling your money, no one wants news at ALL, positive or negative.

Paris
11-14-2009, 05:03 PM
Paris, you opened the door on the issue of subsidized mortgages and first time home purchases. How about finishing what you started ?

- who pays for the dancer's $8000 first time homebuyer tax credit ? Basic answer, her customers ( via higher future taxes ), and herself ( via higher future taxes)

- what is the probability that the 'real value' of a newly purchased home at today's prices will actually be worth more in a couple of years than it cost to buy ?

- what are the newly introduced hurdles a dancer is going to face when attempting to get approval for a new mortgage loan ?

- what will the total costs of home ownership look like over the next couple of years compared to the costs of renting ?

::) I was demonstrating propaganda, not starting a debate about a political policy. It was a randomly selected article. It could have been about the Mars rovers for all I cared.




As for 'lovefests', it should be immediately obvious that there are different 'schools' represented by Dollar Den posters ... with the 'school' represented by Eric Stoner, myself, and to some extent Deogol, Stuart etc. being in the minority. However, where economics is concerned, a 'majority vote' confers zero factual validity ... and in fact the 'majority' of market investors are usually wrong !

~

I guess ass-kissing gets one preference even on online forums.


First of all, I think you do a superb job of moderating. I especially like the way you give latitude but when the discussion gets too political without redeeming economic value, you step in and send everyone to their room to get depoliticized.
I've been scolded myself once or twice and am none the worse for it.


Speak for yourself. A day without a post from Melonie is like a day without sunshine. I can't get enough of her. If I could I'd bear her children but I'm content to come in once a week and wash her windows.


:yuck:

I was just trying to be helpful to the MAJORITY of the membership of STRIPPERweb. I guess since the site owner is pretty much MIA (or very minimally involved at this point), then whatever happens in any of the forums really up to the moderators.

My loyalty is 1st to the stripper members. Everyone else is just added flavor to the site, but strippers need to be the focus.

I should also note that my crystal ball works as good as anyone else when it comes to investing. No one really knows what the future holds. They can guess, and can make educated guesses. But judging by the current state of the international banking system, one could say that even educated guesses are sometimes wrong. Stupendously wrong, as of late. If the most elite financial and economic experts can be this horribly wrong, somehow I doubt that anyone on this forum would be able to do any better with their own personal crystal ball gazing.

Melonie
11-15-2009, 07:39 AM
I should also note that my crystal ball works as good as anyone else when it comes to investing

from


I'm still plugging away with some small remodels, but I lost quite a bit on a spec house that sold for less than I built it in 2007.

run short of windex for that crystal ball, did you ?



I was demonstrating propaganda,

unfortunately, like some other sources, the 'propaganda' content of your post wasn't specifically disclosed ... thus an average Dollar Den reader, like an average viewer of other sources, may not have been able to make a distinction ...

(snip)"Richard Ambrose is the author of some amusing financial humor. He is the original author of The Lloyds Prayer that was widely circulated without proper attribution last week (my apologies, Richard!)

His most recent work takes a poke at one of my favorite CNBC curmudgeons, Mark Haines:

How To Be An Agreeable Guest Of Mark Haines on CNBC:

Each trading morning, CNBC’s anchor agrarian has two guests he asks one simple question: “So, What Do You Think Of The Market?”

If you are chosen, you¹ll only have 20 seconds to answer so practice practice practice!; Here¹s how to make sure you get it right!

“Good Morning Mark! I’m (pick ONE)

a) Very Bullish
b) Bullish
c) Bullish But A little Cautious (Use ONLY if market is currently down)

on the markets here because we believe (pick TWO)

a) interest rates are going to stay low,
b) there is real growth in the GDP,
c) the rally is still intact,

And (pick ONE)

a) stocks are a great value at current levels.
b) the market will continue to go higher from here.
c) stocks are undervalued at these levels.

We¹re bullish on (pick up to THREE)

a) Technology
b) Energy and Commodities
c) Blue Chip Industrials
d) (Insert Stock Names You Already Own At Lower Prices)

Mark will make some short meaningless comment signaling your time is up, then repeat your name and firm; SMILE and remember to reply:

“Thank you for having me on.”

Amusing stuff, Richard. Thanks!"(snip)

from



If the most elite financial and economic experts can be this horribly wrong, somehow I doubt that anyone on this forum would be able to do any better with their own personal crystal ball gazing

This is PRECISELY why I have repeatedly posted opinions in Dollar Den from financial and economic experts who are NOT part of the mainstream elite ! And arguably, the 'track record' of these non-mainstream elite financial and economic experts has been significantly better than their mainstream elite counterparts over the past couple of years. However, their non-mainstream expert opinions are usually not 'easy reading' or 'inspiring' - but then again neither was the actual performance of the economy.

Admittedly NOBODY can accurately predict what the markets / economy will do in the future 100% of the time. For that matter, achieving 51% these days is an accomplishment ! But there are two sides to every 'story', even if one side has a lot more supporters and a lot more publishers than the other side !!!

~

Mr Hyde
11-15-2009, 08:48 AM
I'm not going to c/p the part of Mel's post that refers to Paris' "propaganda" bit, but it was obvious to me that Paris was just making a point by saying that she could take a random piece of financial news (subsidized mortgages) and tie it in to stripping. And no offense Mel, but your retort to that above is exactly what most people mean when they say the DD is all politics, convoluted answers, and fairly useless. I have no idea why you posted that thing about Mark Haines and I can't see how it relates to what Paris said at all.

Deogol
11-15-2009, 10:42 AM
Well maybe people need to start stepping up to what is going on in the economy. In the other parts of stripperweb we can see all kinds of posts about:


Decreased customers
Increased extras
Old customers staying away, new customers are octo-hands
Closed clubs
Increasing competition from many new girls
Increased fees and revenue grabbing by club owners


and what are the answers offered up? Smile more. "Hustle" better. It's all in your attitude.

Or, they can come over here, hunker down with their brains, and start coming to terms with what the fuck is going on around here in the western economies and why.

I have to grin when it's all "Doom and Gloom" in Dollar Den. Well fuck, look at all these people on 2 years of unemployment, kicked out of their homes, credit card rates increasing from 12% to 33%, taxes increasing, etc. and then what are we suppose to say? "Buck up girl, try a new dress, smile more (after all it's all attitude) and here's a coupon for some MAC."

Instead of getting mad at some poor schlub who is doing his best to have a nice night out with a $20 dance (instead of the accustomed $100). I mean one group is like "Don't have the money - stay the fuck out!" and then right around the corner is another thread complaining about a club being empty that use to be hopping. Must be the owners fault - yea that's it.

Dollar Den offers up a lot more about what is leading to these conditions I believe.

There is a whole lot of talk about what is shouldn't be in Dollar Den (I mean, why should the community actually use it have a say in about it right?) - How about adding threads "more appropriate" and let the forum evolve in the way you hope it will?

Melonie
11-15-2009, 03:53 PM
At the risk of further criticism, I'll attempt to add two more points ...

- in my own defense, it is not my fault that the American economy is experiencing the largest upheavals in 75 years ... it is an undeniable fact that the largest active forces for change in the American economy now originate from Washington DC and state capitals ... and it is also an undeniable fact that actions cause reactions. Thus any serious discussion of these active forces for economic change, as well as the likely reactions by American businesses / investors / individuals, by definition must now have an element of political / economic policy.

As Deogol points out in a less direct fashion, the avoidance of economic discussions and / or analysis of topics because they have their roots in Washington DC and state capitals ... 'Economic Correctness' if you will ... is both unrealistic in factual economic terms, and arguably does a major dis-service to dancers.


- In regard to 'editorial policy' in Dollar Den, like professional athletes I realize that the career arc / peak earnings potential for dancers tends to be short and sweet. However, by definition, this makes dancers ( as well as professional atheletes ) much more 'sensitive' to experiencing financial losses. In other words, if a dancer enters into an investment which loses significant value, odds are that she will not have another 25 years of dancing earnings available in the future to help her recoup from the loss and 'wait out' the next economic cycle as mainstream workers do. Thus I tend to post economic content which warns of loss risk or describes methods of defensive asset protection - as opposed to posting economic content that describes speculative investments with high potential returns but also high risk of loss. Put another way, if a dancer experiences a significant invesment loss with say 5 years remaining in her dancing career, she faces the double whammy of having to 'repay' the lost capital / principal out of dancing earnings to 'get back where she started from' PLUS losing the passive interest / dividend income that otherwise might have stemmed from that lost capital / principal in the meantime.

Not wanting to make a big deal out of this point, but if Paris had actually given creedence to non-mainstream Dollar Den posts spanning all the way back to 2004 on the topic of ( then coming ) speculative real estate market losses, ( example - ) she might have avoided experiencing some personal real estate investment losses. However, under current Dollar Den attitude, such posts probably would have been deemed as containing excessive 'political' content as well as excessive 'pessimism'.



I have no idea why you posted that thing about Mark Haines and I can't see how it relates to what Paris said at all.

I thought that it was a completely obvious reference to 'propaganda' content in some US mainstream financial media which, like Paris' post, does not carry a disclaimer !!!

~

threlayer
11-15-2009, 05:42 PM
...For instance, a thread about Maybelline eyeliner could start off discussing that brand of eyeliner, then other products by Maybelline, and then other brands and types of make up. If the thread got long enough people might post up pictures of themselves wearing the make up or recommend certain color combination. Would that be bad? No. It's just the normal flow of conversation.

In the way of hot topics like politics there are rarely going to be threads kept on topic. This is because so many people have so many different ideas and everyone wants to be right....

Just my $0.02, but what do I know? ;D

Quite a bit it turns out.

Your hypothetical thread didnt deviate as described above. But the eye liner thread could deviate into animal experimentation which could become political and then controversial. At least it doesn't often become religious.

threlayer
11-15-2009, 05:52 PM
At the risk of further criticism, I'll attempt to add two more points ...

- in my own defense, it is not my fault that the American economy is experiencing the largest upheavals in 75 years... Thus any serious discussion of these active forces for economic change, as well as the likely reactions by American businesses / investors / individuals, by definition must now have an element of political / economic policy.
...
In regard to 'editorial policy' in Dollar Den, like professional athletes I realize that the career arc / peak earnings potential for dancers tends to be short and sweet. However, by definition, this makes dancers ( as well as professional atheletes ) much more 'sensitive' to experiencing financial losses...Thus I tend to post economic content which warns of loss risk or describes methods of defensive asset protection - as opposed to posting economic content that describes speculative investments with high potential returns but also high risk of loss...

...However, under current Dollar Den attitude, such posts probably would have been deemed as containing excessive 'political' content as well as excessive 'pessimism'.


There are hardly any investments that are not or likely not to be influenced by political events. You really have to keep up on things. The problem here comes from people having almost radicaly different outlooks on life and their desire to have others with different outlooks either help justify it or convert into it.

Seems like the short peak earning years of dancers would support some conservative investments strategies. But this is not necessarily related to conservative politics, just being prudent and aware.

Melonie
11-15-2009, 06:08 PM
^^^ your dispassionate and rational comments are greatly appreciated !


Seems like the short peak earning years of dancers would support some conservative investments strategies. But this is not necessarily related to conservative politics, just being prudent and aware

In theory I agree completely. However, in the 'real world', the effects of certain non-conservative politico-economic policies i.e. increasing tax rates, discouragement of private sector investment, the 'moral hazard' of subsidizing comfortable long term unemployment etc. are having a direct negative impact on all businesses that, by their very nature, offer 'non-essential' services. Lap dances are unquestionably 'non-essential' expenditures ! Dancers cannot save or invest if they are not able to earn enough money ( after taxes ) to provide a saveable, investable 'surplus' beyond the amount of money needed to meet 'basic costs of living'.

Also, under current policies at least, a number of investment classes are being directly and negatively impacted by non-conservative politico-economic policies. The largest among these is probably the bond market, which has experienced the double whammy of bondholders 'being sold down the river' as a result of GM / Chrysler bankruptcy court rulings, as well as the wholesale printing of new dollars / wholesale offering of unprecedented numbers of new US Treasury bonds. Second is probably the increased profitability of certain businesses who are the recipients of 'new' gov't assistance, versus the decreased profitability of certain other businesses who must bear the cost burden of 'new' gov't mandates. Of course, if one does not have a problem with the concept of profiting from gov't policy, there are investor profits to be made on this basis. Unfortunately, my financially conservative 'roots' present me with a personal problem where potential profits earned at the expense of US taxpayers is concerned.

~

Mr Hyde
11-15-2009, 08:07 PM
At the risk of further criticism, I'll attempt to add two more points ...

- in my own defense, it is not my fault that the American economy is experiencing the largest upheavals in 75 years ... it is an undeniable fact that the largest active forces for change in the American economy now originate from Washington DC and state capitals ... and it is also an undeniable fact that actions cause reactions. Thus any serious discussion of these active forces for economic change, as well as the likely reactions by American businesses / investors / individuals, by definition must now have an element of political / economic policy.

As Deogol points out in a less direct fashion, the avoidance of economic discussions and / or analysis of topics because they have their roots in Washington DC and state capitals ... 'Economic Correctness' if you will ... is both unrealistic in factual economic terms, and arguably does a major dis-service to dancers.


- In regard to 'editorial policy' in Dollar Den, like professional athletes I realize that the career arc / peak earnings potential for dancers tends to be short and sweet. However, by definition, this makes dancers ( as well as professional atheletes ) much more 'sensitive' to experiencing financial losses. In other words, if a dancer enters into an investment which loses significant value, odds are that she will not have another 25 years of dancing earnings available in the future to help her recoup from the loss and 'wait out' the next economic cycle as mainstream workers do. Thus I tend to post economic content which warns of loss risk or describes methods of defensive asset protection - as opposed to posting economic content that describes speculative investments with high potential returns but also high risk of loss. Put another way, if a dancer experiences a significant invesment loss with say 5 years remaining in her dancing career, she faces the double whammy of having to 'repay' the lost capital / principal out of dancing earnings to 'get back where she started from' PLUS losing the passive interest / dividend income that otherwise might have stemmed from that lost capital / principal in the meantime.

Not wanting to make a big deal out of this point, but if Paris had actually given creedence to non-mainstream Dollar Den posts spanning all the way back to 2004 on the topic of ( then coming ) speculative real estate market losses, ( example - http://forum.stripperweb.com/showthread.php?t=43107&highlight=subprime ) she might have avoided experiencing some personal real estate investment losses. However, under current Dollar Den attitude, such posts probably would have been deemed as containing excessive 'political' content as well as excessive 'pessimism'.




I thought that it was a completely obvious reference to 'propaganda' content in some US mainstream financial media which, like Paris' post, does not carry a disclaimer !!!

~

Then I guess what needs to be done is to determine what the purpose of the DD is.

Is it a forum to discuss simple, practical financial topics, or is it also a forum to discuss that plus larger topics on economics, fiscal policy, and to make commentary on these things? Right now it appears to be the latter, but based on Paris' poll and the desire of most posters, it should be the former.

threlayer
11-15-2009, 08:18 PM
^^ Or possibly a more clearly stated link between those events and the potentially resulting practical aspects for readers of DD.

SerenaSin
11-16-2009, 07:38 AM
if i may add in a word, I tend to avoid DD because it comes off as a strictly Libertarian hang-out. I'm strongly opposed to Libertarianism's support of unbridled, unrestrained capitalism (For the record, I'm not a liberal) so having to wade through all that shit is annoying and frustrating. I feel like if I post to a thread at all it will have to turn into some sort of political debate, and if I start a thread myself someone else will just chime in w/ "lol teh free marketz will solve everything let's privatize air lol", and besides the very blatantly political/useless policy content the rest of the board consists of stuff that you really need some advanced formal economics education to be able to understand. I consider myself a pretty intelligent person but I don't know wtf is going on in DD half the time.

I agree w/ Paris that DD should be a STRIPPER-relevant forum, not a forum for thinly-veiled political soapboxing (for Libertarians OR liberals)

I mean for that matter, why don't we have an environmental forum on SW, since all strippers are affected by climate change, species extinction, mountaintop removal, run-off, and the health of our coral reefs in some way? (in fact, I'd argue that strippers are affected way more directly by these things than by most of the things posted in DD currently)

Eric Stoner
11-16-2009, 08:00 AM
I can't believe I am getting flak for injecting a little humor into this forum. I've never even met Melonie. I'm sure we'd get along but REALLY !
I guess I'll have to sell my yacht and cancel my plane reservations. The houseboy position has been filled.

Another point. A lot of what is posted here might be relevant for, or of interest to, one dancer but meaningless to another. Some ladies take a broad view of money and investing matters while others prefer things to be a litttle more parochial. Whatever. Obviously both the Macro and Micro schools are being served.

NickT
11-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Another point. A lot of what is posted here might be relevant for, or of interest to, one dancer but meaningless to another. Some ladies take a broad view of money and investing matters while others prefer things to be a litttle more parochial. Whatever. Obviously both the Macro and Micro schools are being served.

The problem is that the advice is not relevant to "one dancer". The advice is relevant to people in general. The fact that they are a dancer is irrelevant to the advice. They are a person with $XXXX to invest. Is the advice given at all specific to the fact that they are a dancer? If you have a friend who had $10k to invest and wanted advice, would you say "If you're a dancer go to stripperweb.com/dd. Otherwise, go to motleyfool.com"

This is not the place to have PhD level discussions about financial policy. If anyone is coming here for help, it is likely newbie investors who need simple advice. All the talk about options, forex, commodities, etc just confuses newbies and is more likely to drive them off rather than encourage them to invest.

If a 20-year-old has a lot of money and doesn't know anything about investing, they need simple advice like:

You should think about saving your money for the long term. If you want a very safe investment, put the money in X-year CD's. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, put the money in an S&P index fund. Also, put the max away into an IRA. Just remember, no investment is 100% safe.

But instead they find discussions about how you should allocate 72.6% into gold unless China buys more Nigerian oil in which case you should allocate 58.91% in gold and add 14.3% in wheat depending on the El Nino effect during November if UHC gets passed because blah blah blah ... Whether or not those discussions are accurate is irrelevant. They are too complex and will confuse the newbie away from even making simple investment decisions.

IgorOfShepherdPark
11-16-2009, 10:40 AM
Most of the strippers I used to work with just tried to live within their official shift pay (reported to the IRS), and supplemented that with non-trackable purchases made with cash from tips. Excess cash was stored in safe deposit boxes in banks.

Deogol
11-16-2009, 10:48 AM
<sarcasm>
Yes, for god's sake - lets dumb down stripper web so the strippers can understand it.
</sarcasm>

Eric Stoner
11-16-2009, 11:57 AM
<sarcasm>
Yes, for god's sake - lets dumb down stripper web so the strippers can understand it.
</sarcasm>

Thanks for saying it. It really gets ridiculous sometimes. There seems to be plenty of informed, knowledgable and intelligent feedback to almost every post on here. A lot of it from dancers.

As for posts being "individualized" or strictly financial advice, "Dancerwealth" isn't here any more. On those occasions when I or anyone else is asked a specific question, it gets answered.

As with anyone else who tries to control content that displeases them my response is : Don't read it. For those who want to "protect" others from God only knows what : They have to grow up sometime and don't really need you to protect them.

camille27
11-16-2009, 12:03 PM
this thread is a really good example of why i stay out of the dd section.

Melonie
11-16-2009, 01:09 PM
Is the advice given at all specific to the fact that they are a dancer? If you have a friend who had $10k to invest and wanted advice, would you say "If you're a dancer go to stripperweb.com/dd. Otherwise, go to motleyfool.com"

In point of fact ... YES ... when questions are asked re certain topics the answers given to dancers are in fact different than plain vanilla answers give to average working people. In terms of specific differences ...

- dancers like professional athletes have a relatively short career arc / peak earning years. Thus it is very important for dancers to avoid taking invesment losses, since unlike average working people they do not have another 20 years available to make up for those losses. For this reason most responses tend to emphasize low risk investments - or at the very least specifically point out the potential loss risk.

- for the same reason of a short career arc / peak earning years, long term strategies such as dollar cost averaging are usually downplayed for dancers. The reason of course is exactly the same ... that they probably do not have another 20 years of dancing career ahead of them to 'ride out' the next economic cycle.

- a lot of answers given take into account the tax consequences ( or tax advantages ) of certain investment classes. Again this is far more useful to a serious professional dancer who will hit a 33-36% tax bracket as compared to average working people who will only hit a 15%-20% tax bracket.

- similarly, a lot of answers take into account a frequent dancer need for 'liquidity' of investments ... be it liquidity as a result of relocation to a different state / country, liquidity as a result of sudden retirement, etc. This is generally a lesser concern for average workers whose 'retirement' is still 20 years away. At the very least liquidity risk is specifically pointed out.

Melonie
11-16-2009, 01:24 PM
I would also point out that a certain number of Stripperweb dancers take the following position re Dollar Den and the economy in general ...


""When I first joined SW, I read the posts in DD. Now I kind of avoid it because most of it is negative and about the bad economy. I know the economy is bad but I like to live my life thinking/believing/pretending that I am not effected.

I think once you start to believe something it becomes true.""


While I certainly won't fault the potential power of positive thinking, there really isn't much that Dollar Den could possibly offer such a dancer under current economic circumstances.

kittygirl
11-16-2009, 02:27 PM
Can we just resurrect the Political Poo section?

Even though no one ever used it, it might alleviate some stress over Dollar Den.

Melonie
11-16-2009, 02:31 PM
^^^ trust me, I'm up for that option !!!

I'm also up for a return of past economic conditions where gov't economic policy was a far smaller factor.

NickT
11-16-2009, 02:54 PM
Just to be clear, we should probably consider two different kinds of posts:

1. Posts in response to a dancer's financial question. If a dancer posts a question about her financial situation, everyone should be free to respond with their opinion.

2. Threads created to pontificate on a topic. Threads created to discussion financial/political topics in general from the viewpoint of the thread starter. These are the threads I don't think belong here.

Melonie/Eric, I would be much more understanding of your stance if you were just responding to questions asked by dancers. But instead you're creating threads about your pet topics and then explaining how your view on the topic is correct. Look at the threads on the first page of DD:

------
Melonie California about to face reality re hybrid & electric vehicles
Melonie Straightfoward analysis - where the economy is, and where it's likely to head next
Melonie This is some SCARY news re coming US interest rates / inflation ...
Melonie US gov't may become largest 'landlord' ...
Melonie is our economy recovering ? - crash of 1920 versus crash of 1929
Melonie more 'stealth' protectionism ... US imposes tariffs on Chinese steel
Melonie one definition of insanity ... doing more of the same but expecting different results
Melonie speculation on potential 'winning' long term investment in China
Melonie striking grocery workers - this should be interesting !
Melonie weekend commentary - "The Financial World Changed This Week"
Melonie weekend commentary - Where the Money Isn't ...
Eric Stoner A ticking time bomb- Released criminals
Eric Stoner California Continues to Lead The Way
Eric Stoner Death of the Land of Opportunity
Eric Stoner Obama = CEO of GM Eric Stoner Obama Halts Climate Change !
Eric Stoner State and Local Bonds- CAUTION !
Eric Stoner UAW out to kill Ford ?
Eric Stoner WHY stimulus hasn't and won't work.
Adelina US Banks to Become A Dumping Ground for US Treasuries?
Kyleigh1984 More Cam Tax Questions :)
Laurisa Alright Melonie and Eric, let's hear your rebuttals:
Laurisa New dancers building credit post Credit Card Bill of Rights
Laurisa Oh me oh my so many tax forms...
Laurisa The house passes the National Healthcare Bill...
Paris No more atm overdrafts
lilmisssunshine Card Theft
stressed A Simple Question
threlayer PBS's "NOW" Program Hits the Mark
------------------
bold = Directly related to dancer situation

You two have created the most number of threads by far. They're not in response to anything a dancer was asking. They are not directly related to a dancer's situation. If you're trying to offer safe investment advice to a dancer with a short earnings career, I don't think these posts do that. You're choking out other discussions and turning this into the Melonie/Eric political den.

Laurisa
11-16-2009, 03:09 PM
Hey not bad, 66% of my threads on the first page were related to taxes and dancing. woot.


I still like Melonie's contributions, off topic or not.

Melonie
11-16-2009, 03:13 PM
They're not in response to anything a dancer was asking. They are not directly related to a dancer's situation. If you're trying to offer safe investment advice to a dancer with a short earnings career, I don't think these posts do that

A. I obviously disagree ! Many of my OP threads, such as 'where the money isn't', 'straightforward analysis', 'interest rates / inflation' etc. are indeed of direct relevance to dancers. Same is true of many of Eric's OP threads, such as 'muni bonds', 'land of opportunity' etc.

B. There is absolutely no 'choking out' of other discussions. Everybody ( including you ) is welcome to initiate new threads as long as they contain some element of economic content. In fact, I often avoid starting OP threads myself in hopes that someone else will do so.

C. The US economy is not run as a democracy (yet), and therefore neither is Dollar Den.

threlayer
11-16-2009, 07:55 PM
Just provide justification on specifically why the topic should be in DD, rather than in some other forum on another web site.

Mr Hyde
11-16-2009, 09:30 PM
The problem is that the advice is not relevant to "one dancer". The advice is relevant to people in general. The fact that they are a dancer is irrelevant to the advice. They are a person with $XXXX to invest. Is the advice given at all specific to the fact that they are a dancer? If you have a friend who had $10k to invest and wanted advice, would you say "If you're a dancer go to stripperweb.com/dd. Otherwise, go to motleyfool.com"

This is not the place to have PhD level discussions about financial policy. If anyone is coming here for help, it is likely newbie investors who need simple advice. All the talk about options, forex, commodities, etc just confuses newbies and is more likely to drive them off rather than encourage them to invest.

If a 20-year-old has a lot of money and doesn't know anything about investing, they need simple advice like:

You should think about saving your money for the long term. If you want a very safe investment, put the money in X-year CD's. If you're comfortable with a little more risk, put the money in an S&P index fund. Also, put the max away into an IRA. Just remember, no investment is 100% safe.

But instead they find discussions about how you should allocate 72.6% into gold unless China buys more Nigerian oil in which case you should allocate 58.91% in gold and add 14.3% in wheat depending on the El Nino effect during November if UHC gets passed because blah blah blah ... Whether or not those discussions are accurate is irrelevant. They are too complex and will confuse the newbie away from even making simple investment decisions.


YES. THIS.

I swear, between the overly complicated advice and the political debate crap, that is why this forum is a mess. If a young dancer came on here looking for advice on what she should do with the 1300 a week she pulls in at the strip club, she'd be lost.

dlabtot
11-16-2009, 10:17 PM
Obviously the problem is that the moderator of the forum is not really interested in 'discussing' anything, whether financial issues or anything else, but rather just likes a having a venue for pushing her extremist right wing political ideology. It happened in 'Political Poo' and once that was closed it just moved here.

kittygirl
11-16-2009, 10:22 PM
How about

1) "Dollar den" investing and immediate money issues

2) Economics and Finance

3) Political Poo

and in my world you can combine 2 and 3 because there is no economics without politics and vice versa. I majored in old school "Political Economy".

Just seems appropriate and we all get a voice.

threlayer
11-17-2009, 07:55 AM
^^ The Political Poo area was closed because of the bickering of people trying to tell others who was right, etc. Made it hard to moderate.

Macro economics and politics go hand in hand (just as you have stated), but knowing what is happening in macro economics (not just politics) is what we all need to plan for longer range financial strategies. Further, it affects strippers (and all of us) looking down the road past our next paycheck. Posters of politically-related macro economics topics need to relate just how this topic could affect strippers specifically, or it should not be posted.

Laurisa
11-17-2009, 08:01 AM
What's wrong with people fighting about who is right? Makes for lots of diverse views in my opinion. On another forum I visit there is a section called "the hot spot" for topics about religion, politics, etc. and it does have some fighting but it's expected in a part of the forum like that. It's a good place to get the latest info though!

threlayer
11-17-2009, 08:11 AM
Obviously the problem is that the moderator of the forum is not really interested in 'discussing' anything, whether financial issues or anything else, but rather just likes a having a venue for pushing her extremist right wing political ideology. It happened in 'Political Poo' and once that was closed it just moved here.

Yes, the moderator is ultra-precautionary, and as a libertarian, she posts articles from the right-wing financial world. But she does answer very thoroughly the working, financial, and tax issues that are posted here and in other SW forums. Often the posts are very complex and long, too long for most of us. She strongly believes what the believes in, so the 'discussions' are futher explanations of what she already has posted.


<<<--My own problem with 'extremist right wing political ideology' is that it assumes that government should be severely limited in its power over corporations and that market forces alone will reel in bad acting, exploitive corporations. And the rest of us all know that is just NOT happening and is the source a plethora of social and financial ills that have this country and some others upside down, belly up, waiting for the kill.-->>>

Laurisa
11-17-2009, 08:14 AM
How about we just ask Pryce to make a political poo section and make Melonie the moderator. It'll be fine and if someone doesn't want to read whats in there then they don't have to.

Simple concept.

Eric Stoner
11-17-2009, 08:50 AM
Obviously the problem is that the moderator of the forum is not really interested in 'discussing' anything, whether financial issues or anything else, but rather just likes a having a venue for pushing her extremist right wing political ideology. It happened in 'Political Poo' and once that was closed it just moved here.

As opposed to your extremist left wing ideology. Or Eagle's. Or even Threlayer's on occasion.

It's not my fault that economic matters have become as politicized as they are now. Very few economic matters are free from political taint. Melonie and I are not the ones who launch personal attacks. We are guilty of posting ideas and opinions that you don't like or agree with.

The critique most in vogue now is that we are "Doom and Gloomers" and that our posts are too negative. Pardon us for departing from the School of Wishful Thinking and resigning from the Barack Hussein Obama Fan Club "Umh; Umh; UMH !". I am very worried about my country; its economy and DANCER EARNINGS. Before that dollar can be slipped between garter and thigh; or table dance bought or VIP Room paid for ( including the bottle of Champagne ) somebody has to make it first. I'm not aware of a single stimulus proposal aimed at subsidizing dancers. Every working dancer has a PERSONAL interest in policies that enable MORE people to make more money. If it goes to Uncle Sam or a state or local Tax Dept. it ain't gonna end up between her garter and thigh. Unemployed people make lousy strip club customers.

As Melonie repeatedly points out, a dancer's career most resembles that of a professional athlete. It's SHORT. By about age 40 ( give or take ) it's OVER ! She has to make it, save it and invest it WISELY. If anything, this forum ought to be a STARTING POINT. Nothing more. A shrewd dancer ought to springboard from the ideas and info here to other sites and places and READ UP. Unless of course she wants to just trust her broker or brother in law who took a couple Economics courses; or just put it into a savings account or maybe just live for today and spend it all.

Isn't it odd, that those now complining the loudest about the dearth of "relevant" posts never bother posting anything helpful to anybody.
If they have information salutary to the financial understanding and well being of dancers - POST IT !

If a dancer plans on doing something else while also dancing or AFTER she retires from dancing, she might want to know who is making money doing what; what the prospects are for such a business or profession. Buggy whip making or typewriter repair might not be good choices. Ideas about emerging industries and those in decline are all over this forum. The critics should be contributing.

If she cares about living in an area with prospects for economic growth, whether working as a dancer or not, she can get some pretty good ideas here. Where is the contribution from the critics ?

If she wantsd to avoid getting audited; or if audited getting a pass, she definitely ought to pay attention to what is posted here. What do the critics have to say about this ?

If she pays taxes; wants to legally avoid or reduce her liability for same, that info is here. Anything from the critics ?

If she'd like to understand wtf is happening in the country and economy as a whole; why we have 10+ % unemployment and why we'll have it well into next year and beyond, she can read it here first and then expand on it elsewhere if she so desires. All we get from the critics is a little name calling and a LOT of complaining.

Most of all, I am sick and tired of the "IGNORANCE IS GOOD " School of Thought sic. continually expressed by a few on this site by feigning concern for their fellow dancers. I think part of it is nothing more than jealousy of Melonie's success and her guts for saying "F.U. Uncle Sam - watch THIS ! " and her relocating to a place where she can enjoy the wealth she worked so hard for without being forced to "share it". Instead they pretend that they are looking out for poor, benighted little dancers who can't read for themselves; can't use the "SEARCH " function or otherwise sift through a few topics that don't interest them to find something they might find more recherche. What about all the dancers who LIKE Dollar Den as it is ? The people who like reading Melonie's Weekend Commentaries ? Or my occasional scintillating analyses ? Those like Eagle who have contrary views don't seem to have any trouble joining in. NOBODY is forced to read anything posted here. The posts here do not affect the availability of other information in any way shape or form.

I respectfully suggest that a few of you might want to seriously think about what your real aim is and that perhaps you ought to be careful what you wish for. Do you seriously want a bland, completely apolitical board ? I think some of you would just prefer that REALITY not intrude on this board at all. The School of Wishful Thinking has already taken over an entire section of forums dealing with dancing, clubs, private dancing and the like. The sources of info and pov's are limited and so are the results afaic. Has it improved any dancer's understanding of the current club scene ? Hmmm ?

NickT
11-17-2009, 10:19 AM
I enjoy reading your posts and analysis, but I think it's too high level for the audience. And by audience I mean newbie investors. Dancers are are intelligent, but as 20-somethings they are newbie investors and need smaller, simpler advice to start with.

It's like solving General Relativity in an intro Physics course. It's not that the students aren't capable of understanding GR, it's that it's so far above their heads it confuses them. You need to start out at their level of understanding and gradually build up.

Perhaps there should be DD and Advanced DD? DD would be for the more simple, basic financial issues. ADD would be for the more complex discussions where money supply, trade deficits, politicial policies, etc could be discussed. This way the readers could graduate to the more advanced disucssions when they are ready.

You have to remember that as a newbie anything, it can be quite intimitating to try to join in. You don't want to look stupid by asking a simple question, even if the people would be happy to answer. So when the newbies come here with simple questions (how do I open a savings acct?), it can be intimitating when 95% of the posts are dealing with world politics and advanced financial strategies.

Eric Stoner
11-17-2009, 11:10 AM
I enjoy reading your posts and analysis, but I think it's too high level for the audience. And by audience I mean newbie investors. Dancers are are intelligent, but as 20-somethings they are newbie investors and need smaller, simpler advice to start with.

It's like solving General Relativity in an intro Physics course. It's not that the students aren't capable of understanding GR, it's that it's so far above their heads it confuses them. You need to start out at their level of understanding and gradually build up.

Perhaps there should be DD and Advanced DD? DD would be for the more simple, basic financial issues. ADD would be for the more complex discussions where money supply, trade deficits, politicial policies, etc could be discussed. This way the readers could graduate to the more advanced disucssions when they are ready.

You have to remember that as a newbie anything, it can be quite intimitating to try to join in. You don't want to look stupid by asking a simple question, even if the people would be happy to answer. So when the newbies come here with simple questions (how do I open a savings acct?), it can be intimitating when 95% of the posts are dealing with world politics and advanced financial strategies.

A- That's not such a bad idea. An Introductory Forum ( my major in college was Introductory Courses ) and an Advanced Forum. Or maybe "Personal Finance" vs." Investing". Something along those lines ?

B- Afaic there is no such thing as a "Stupid question". Not asking is the only thing that's stupid if you ask me.

threlayer
11-17-2009, 11:43 AM
It is the extremist views presented and ultra-complex (hard-to-read) answers that are of concern. And sometimes the retorts do get personal.

Eric Stoner
11-17-2009, 12:20 PM
It is the extremist views presented and ultra-complex (hard-to-read) answers that are of concern. And sometimes the retorts do get personal.

There is a wide variety of views expressed from free market capitalism ; supply side economics; demand side; Keynesian; all the way to socialism.

Some of the issues discussed are no doubt complex. Most of the posts are very easy to read. And the readers here are always free to read fuirther elsewhere if they want to know more about a particular topic.

There is very lkittle personalizing here. Most of what little there is has been directed at Melonie and me. She has proven to have a thick skin and I have reached an accomodation to be mutually civil with just about everyone on here; e.g. I've recalled Eagle from his alternate universe....... Kidding. Just kidding .

Deogol
11-17-2009, 01:05 PM
What's wrong with people fighting about who is right? Makes for lots of diverse views in my opinion. On another forum I visit there is a section called "the hot spot" for topics about religion, politics, etc. and it does have some fighting but it's expected in a part of the forum like that. It's a good place to get the latest info though!

You are so new to stripperweb. ;D

Deogol
11-17-2009, 01:16 PM
I don't think we should have a different forum.

Perhaps a Newbies Question thread. And then go from there. Every now and then shutdown the thread and start a new one.

The moderator will have to keep long winded explainations out of the newbie thread and perhaps cite another thread.

threlayer
11-19-2009, 07:25 AM
Or a sub-sections much like is in the Lounge -- Forum Games, Quizzes, and Surveys

Subsections could be titled for example :

Personal Money Issues
Starting My Business and Taxes
Long Term Planning and Macroeconomics

AudreyLeigh
11-19-2009, 08:16 AM
What's wrong with people fighting about who is right? Makes for lots of diverse views in my opinion. On another forum I visit there is a section called "the hot spot" for topics about religion, politics, etc. and it does have some fighting but it's expected in a part of the forum like that. It's a good place to get the latest info though!

I think this is a great idea!