View Full Version : PSA: Going to law school (or most other grad schools) is not the answer
Deogol
12-16-2009, 06:12 PM
Degrees matter because management no longer takes risk or responsibility in this country anymore.
ViolaStrings
12-17-2009, 10:01 AM
Why do you think employers care about college degrees? Anyone can get a BA in liberal arts from a local state school; it doesn't set you apart from the crowd.
It lets employers know you're willing to jump through hoops and put up with bureaucratic type shit in your life. That's what the degree is for. It proves you're willing to be shit upon.
And actually, still only 1 out of 7 people in the US have a college degree, so it DOES set you apart.
Blackstone
12-17-2009, 11:45 AM
It lets employers know you're willing to jump through hoops and put up with bureaucratic type shit in your life. That's what the degree is for. It proves you're willing to be shit upon.
And actually, still only 1 out of 7 people in the US have a college degree, so it DOES set you apart.
Maybe for people born in 1920. It's more like 35% now.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/10/10/degree_rate_stalls_for_young_adults/
ViolaStrings
12-17-2009, 11:57 AM
^ still, that's a little more than 1 out of 3 people. It's not a BAD idea.
Clara_M
12-21-2009, 02:33 AM
It lets employers know you're willing to jump through hoops and put up with bureaucratic type shit in your life. That's what the degree is for. It proves you're willing to be shit upon.
And it's why law firms look to hire the top 20% of students. Being in the top 20% means that you read all the boring cases, even when the usefulness was marginal.
It means that you'll take being
[email protected] upon fairly well, won't freak out when you pull an all-nighter finishing a boring memo, only to be told that they didn't need it after all, etc.
Students with lower grades often do a lot better, if they have business sense. Someone in the top 20% may be less practical ("What do I have to do to pass?"), but likely to be a much better "wage-slave"... which is what it is, even when the wages are high.
Yes, I'm cynical. I won't even begin to talk about the harassment and personal abuse that goes on in a lot of firms.
C
Blackstone
12-21-2009, 12:18 PM
Top 20% MAYBE got decent jobs in 2005. In Texas, if you didn't go to UT or better, it's closer to top 4-5%, if they're hiring anyone at all, unless you're an attractive woman or the firm doesn't have enough people with your skin color.
jack0177057
12-22-2009, 05:27 PM
^^^ While I agree with the grim statistics, it is worth mentioning that you don't have to find a job as a lawyer... As a lawyer, you can hang your own "shingle" straight out of lawschool. (You can find mentors and study groups at the local bar association.)
Yes, it is daunting, but I have seen it done succesfully. If you are a good networker and great salesperson, you can do very well. (Allow about 2-3 years to build a successful practice.)
You have to find your niche... If you are a former dancer and know many dancers, SC managers and club owners, a family practice (divorce and custody) and/or criminal defense practice specially catering to sex workers would be a great place to start. There are like a thousand family lawyers and criminal lawyers in every major city, this is true... But, if you connect well with a sizeable market that has the money to pay your legal fees, you can blow away your competition. Creative marketing can make a lawyer very successful.
It's all about marketing and exposure... If your prospects are dancers, visit the clubs, buy lunch for the girls, put on a free mini-seminar about custody or criminal issues, advertise on the newspapers/mags that advertise strip clubs and boutique stores and publish articles in those newspapers on legal matters that relate to sex workers, etc. Once you have a loyal following, you will have a constant flow of referrals.
Clara_M
12-31-2009, 01:16 PM
^^^ While I agree with the grim statistics, it is worth mentioning that you don't have to find a job as a lawyer... As a lawyer, you can hang your own "shingle" straight out of lawschool. (You can find mentors and study groups at the local bar association.)
Yes, it is daunting, but I have seen it done succesfully. If you are a good networker and great salesperson, you can do very well. (Allow about 2-3 years to build a successful practice.)
You have to find your niche... If you are a former dancer and know many dancers, SC managers and club owners, a family practice (divorce and custody) and/or criminal defense practice specially catering to sex workers would be a great place to start. There are like a thousand family lawyers and criminal lawyers in every major city, this is true... But, if you connect well with a sizeable market that has the money to pay your legal fees, you can blow away your competition. Creative marketing can make a lawyer very successful.
It's all about marketing and exposure... If your prospects are dancers, visit the clubs, buy lunch for the girls, put on a free mini-seminar about custody or criminal issues, advertise on the newspapers/mags that advertise strip clubs and boutique stores and publish articles in those newspapers on legal matters that relate to sex workers, etc. Once you have a loyal following, you will have a constant flow of referrals.
This is the absolute truth, and anyone considering law school should re-read Jack's post multiple times. /c
flickad
02-15-2010, 07:36 PM
They will simply import em, like every other industry.
Meanwhile, schools will continue raising prices out of the range of American citizens taking on their own imports - foreign students (often tuition paid for by the government like China.)
You can't import foreign lawyers. The law is different in each jurisdiction and immigrating lawyers have to requalify. Some of the people I went to law school with already had law degrees from places like India.
ETA - I wish I hadn't read this thread. How discouraging. I really didn't want to be essentially told not to bother trying to find work.
Melonie
02-16-2010, 12:33 PM
^^^ technically true that lawyers wishing to directly practice law in a particular state have to be certified by that state. But this does NOT mean that all legal work done for a particular state needs to be performed by a lawyer certified by that state.
Increasingly, law firms are following in the footsteps of engineering firms, medical services firms etc. in that they utilize a handful of fully certified lawyers, engineers, or doctors for direct contact with 'customers' and the courts / inspectors / hospitals, but that the bulk of the legal / engineering / diagnostic 'grunt work' is in fact being outsourced to attorneys / engineers / doctors in China, India etc. at much lower pay rates.
Thus while you can't 'import' foreign lawyers, you can definitely 'import' their work product such as drafting of contracts to name just one example ... as long as a US attorney serves as 'front man' during contract signing and filing.
flickad
02-18-2010, 04:57 AM
^^^ technically true that lawyers wishing to directly practice law in a particular state have to be certified by that state. But this does NOT mean that all legal work done for a particular state needs to be performed by a lawyer certified by that state.
Increasingly, law firms are following in the footsteps of engineering firms, medical services firms etc. in that they utilize a handful of fully certified lawyers, engineers, or doctors for direct contact with 'customers' and the courts / inspectors / hospitals, but that the bulk of the legal / engineering / diagnostic 'grunt work' is in fact being outsourced to attorneys / engineers / doctors in China, India etc. at much lower pay rates.
Thus while you can't 'import' foreign lawyers, you can definitely 'import' their work product such as drafting of contracts to name just one example ... as long as a US attorney serves as 'front man' during contract signing and filing.
I doubt this will happen where I live thanks to the provisions of the Legal Profession Act 2004, which requires all legal work to be carried out by persons admitted to the profession in Victoria. I'm uncertain as to whether the various states in the US have implemented similar legislation, but I do know that the unauthorised practice of law is an offence most places. To be authorised to practice law, you must be admitted to the profession in the relevant state. If it is indeed possible to outsource some legal work in the US, firms will need to be very careful what they outsource if the partners wish to keep their practising certificates.
Things like drafting of contracts could well present a problem as the common law differs between jurisdictions. American courts' interpretations of various contractual provisions could well differ from Indian common law, making foreign drafting a risky proposition in terms of liability for professional negligence down the track. Supervision may lower the risk, but doesn't remove it. Also, if a contract is found to be formed in India, it may well be subject to Indian law, which could prove problematic should litigation later arise.
sxcbbw
02-18-2010, 05:04 AM
Ah, free university. How I love you.
flickad
02-18-2010, 05:06 AM
Ah, free university. How I love you.
Is it completely free in the UK? You don't have to pay your fees in increments once your income goes above a certain level?
We have HECS, which means our fees are subsidised and delayed until our incomes hit a certain level. I think I owe about 30K at this point.
sxcbbw
02-18-2010, 05:13 AM
Is it completely free in the UK? You don't have to pay your fees in increments once your income goes above a certain level?
We have HECS, which means our fees are subsidised and delayed until our incomes hit a certain level. I think I owe about 30K at this point.
It depends on your situation. I'm dirt poor and disabled, so it's free. Student loans need to be paid back once your income reaches a certain level, but I haven't taken one out because credit unnerves me. UK uni fees are £3.5k a year, nationwide, and can't legally be any higher although they're looking to put the limit up. The requirements to get it free are across the board too, so if you get awesome grades you can go to Oxbridge for nothing.
flickad
02-18-2010, 05:18 AM
It depends on your situation. I'm dirt poor and disabled, so it's free. Student loans need to be paid back once your income reaches a certain level, but I haven't taken one out because credit unnerves me. UK uni fees are £3.5k a year, nationwide, and can't legally be any higher although they're looking to put the limit up. The requirements to get it free are across the board too, so if you get awesome grades you can go to Oxbridge for nothing.
Nobody's gotten a free (educational) lunch here since the '70s. Still, I'm glad I didn't have to pay any of it upfront.
sxcbbw
02-18-2010, 05:25 AM
Nobody's gotten a free (educational) lunch here since the '70s. Still, I'm glad I didn't have to pay any of it upfront.
Suuuucks. I <3 my free education and my NHS and all the other wonderful things I have. I'd go huggle the government for granting me these things but I'm lazy. I seriously wish more countries would adopt these systems.
flickad
02-19-2010, 01:32 AM
Suuuucks. I <3 my free education and my NHS and all the other wonderful things I have. I'd go huggle the government for granting me these things but I'm lazy. I seriously wish more countries would adopt these systems.
We have Medicare, which is similar to NHS, so I'm relatively happy.