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Elvia
09-27-2010, 09:36 PM
So why have you continued to support your church without question while it was committing these crimes? What have you ever done to see that those people who have committed crimes are being punished? There are countless decent Catholics who stopped supporting their church when they found out what it's been doing.
Exactly. That's what I'm wondering. My mother in law is Catholic, from a South American country. She does not go to church anymore because she does not approve of the way they have operated. She still has her core beliefs. She stays home and prays. She does not go to church, she does not give them money anymore. She gives to other secular charities. I admire that. If more Catholics did this then they would have some real power to demand change and accountability in the church. But most of them won't. Most will maybe at best give some lip service about how terrible it is, but will continue to go and hand over their money no matter what happens.
Kellydancer
09-27-2010, 09:41 PM
It's more than the church knows it's a problem. The church covered it up, protected abusers, and put allowed them access to more victims. That takes things to a whole different level. I don't know how many times I have to go in circles with you again and again. That is NOT the same thing as the occasional pedophile continuing his crimes in secret. If you found out your child went to a school where a pedophile had been working and secretly abusing kids, that would be horrifying enough. Are you honestly going to tell me that if you found out the school had known about this teacher for decades, covered it up, pressured victims into remaining silent about it, and allowed him to continue working there and abusing more and more children, that wouldn't seem like an even bigger deal to you? You honestly don't see any significant difference between those two scenarios?
Actually I know schools that have covered up pedophiles too so this same scenario has happened. Do I support the church covering it up? No I don't, and in fact this has been something I think about. I do not support all of their views either. Actually next time I go to RCIA classes I'm actually going to ask what percentage of the money goes to the Vatican. However like I said before this is a problem with all churches. There is a solution to solve this in the church but we'll see if they do it (I'll let people guess what the two possible solutions is).
eagle2
09-27-2010, 09:41 PM
The American Catholic Church, for the most part, is a lot more liberal than in other places, and disagrees with the Pope on a lot of issues. Most Catholics in Congress are liberal Democrats. (The most conservative Catholics are in the US Supreme Court - rumored to be part of Opus Dei, a supposedly "secret" global ultra-conservative Catholic organization with far-reaching power and influence - I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up in this Catholic-bashing thread. A post about Opus Dei in 3... 2... 1... )
There is no "American Catholic Church", only the Roman Catholic Church, of which Catholic Churches in America are part of. Catholic Churches in America do not disagree with the Pope on anything. Do you even know how your church is run?
The great irony is that the sexual scandals have come at a time when the church has tried to relax many of its more conservative attitudes and to embrace "modernity". Although John Paul II was conservative and was respected and admired, the Catholic Church leadership was overtaken by very liberal influences during his tenure. One example - men that were effeminate and even "gay" were allowed to become priests, as long as they took vows of celibecy (i.e., no sex with other men - the same celibacy promise required of heterosexual priests). The standards for priests, which was once extremely rigid and conservative, was liberalized to allow more diversity. Instead of making the Catholic Church stronger, its efforts to become more liberal and "modern" have been catastrophic.
You're lying again. What is your problem that you must lie about everything? The Catholic Church has not become more liberal on issues such as homosexuality. The idea that your church has become more liberal and "modern" is ridiculous. Your church doesn't even allow contraception, and it still does not find homosexuality acceptable. How much more backward can it possibly be?
Elvia
09-27-2010, 09:47 PM
However like I said before this is a problem with all churches. .
An ongoing policy of covering up child abuse? No. It's really not.
Also, I couldn't help but notice you avoided my point, again. Are those two scenarios (a pedophile operating secretly and alone, or a pedophile existing in an environment that protects him and allows him access to more victims) the same thing? Because your points seem to depend on portraying them as the same scenario.
And let me ask this: in the second scenario, would you continue to send your child to that school? What if it turned out some of their funding was coming from an overseas slave labor camp staffed largely by children that they opened and operated? Would you continue to send your child there? Would you donate money to them?
eagle2
09-27-2010, 09:47 PM
I get it, you hate the Catholic Church. Since you aren't Catholic, I'm not sure why you care what they do. You are aware how much trouble the Islam religion has caused as well, aren't you? Or for that matter any religion. There are several churches here (none are Catholic btw) that cause trouble. How about that minister who's accused of molesting. It's not a Catholic only problem.
I don't care what the Catholic Church does, as long as they're not harming anyone else. When the Catholic Church does harm others, then it does become an issue for me.
I would just as strongly condemn any Jewish synagogue or Protestant Church whose clergy were harming people and the synagogue or church did nothing about it, or protected those who were harming others.
Kellydancer
09-27-2010, 09:49 PM
There is no "American Catholic Church", only the Roman Catholic Church of which Catholic Churches in America are part of. Catholic Churches in America do not disagree with the Pope on anything. Do you even know how your church is run?
Years ago when I was in CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) one of the church parents said they thought the Americans would split from the Roman Catholic because Americans are far more liberal than most Catholics in other countries. Whether that's true I don't know.
Kellydancer
09-27-2010, 09:51 PM
I don't care what the Catholic Church does, as long as they're not harming anyone else. When the Catholic Church does harm others, then it does become an issue for me.
I would just as strongly condemn any Jewish synagogue or Protestant Church whose clergy were harming people and the synagogue or church did nothing about it, or protected those who were harming others.
The problem is many people will attack the church for this issue (and I hate pedophiles as much as anyone) but other churches get away with things. This is why it gets me upset because all religions have bad people.
flickad
09-28-2010, 07:48 PM
It is. They don't loose their priests if they let them stay on and continue, and they don't get bad publicity if they keep what they did covered up.
Nor do they get sued under the doctrine of vicarious liability.
flickad
09-28-2010, 07:50 PM
1) Let's not pretend the church has been steadily marching towards being more progressive. Notice that you had to go back to the last pope to make it look that way. Ratzinger was a giant step towards moving back to a more conservative church.
2) "its efforts to become more liberal and "modern" have been catastrophic." Please explain what this has to do with the "catastrophic" problems. Is moving in a more "progressive" direction what caused the molestation and coverup that's been going on for decades? Is that why the pope is telling people condoms have made the AIDS epidemic worse? Does this explain the Magdalene asylums that were opened over 100 years ago?
On this note, I'd like to also point out that sex scandals in the church date all the way back to the Middle Ages.
jack0177057
09-29-2010, 04:21 PM
It was the entire church. The church consists of the people who run the church, not every single Catholic who ever attends mass. It was the Catholic Church's policy to cover up for pedophile priests and allow them to continue. Do you think it's just a coincidence that every time the Church found out that one of their priests was raping children, the church allowed the priests to remain in their positions, or transferred them somewhere else, where they continued to commit more crimes? The church spent billions of dollars paying off victims to keep silent about the crimes being committed by priests.
You repeat the same thing over and over, but lack any serious depth in your sensitivity to the issues. Try to elevate your thinking instead of spewing bigotted generalizations.
Again, for the thousandth time - I stand by your side and demand criminal investigations and prosecutions of all the guilty individuals in the Catholic Church (including the pedophile priests and anyone who covered up criminal acts), but when you blame an entire religion for the sins of some, that just shows you are a bigot.
Of the tens or hundreds of thousands of Catholic diocese around the world, less than fifty had to deal with allegations regarding pedophile priests. We all agree that the those dioceses should have reported these allegations to the authorities and they should be held accountable.
But, you go as far as to condemn all the people who "run the church" - i.e., all the priests (in 2005, they numbered 406,411 throughout the world), bishops (about 5100 throughout the world), cardinals (about 184 throughout the world), the Pope, and the tens or hundreds of thousands of non-clergy Catholics in leadership positions around the world (hospitals, universities, schools, charities, etc.). This is ludicrous and bigotted.
If we applied these same standards to the US government, we would have to lock up every US President and Congressmen in prison for the uber-long list of human rights violations committed around the world by American military personnel and defense contractors. Do you also condemn all the people who "run" the US (or any country in the world, for that matter) for human rights abuses? That's how terrorists defends their acts.
No, you're a religious nut who posts personal attacks against anyone who mentions the many crimes committed by your beloved church.
That's silly. I am not a religious nut, but I am not going to ignore biggoted and ignorant comments that attack my faith.
You're lying. It's not EVERYWHERE. All you're doing is trying trivialize the crimes committed by your church. There are countless organizations that manage to operate without protecting and covering up for its members committing crimes against children.
See, this is exactly the problem - You think it is only a Catholic Church problem. You will trust your kids with anyone, as long as they are not Catholic clergy. This illustrates the grave problem. Did you pay any attention to the statistics I mentioned earlier? The VAST number of child sexual abuse is committed by the kid's own family and close friends 60%! - Most often - fathers, uncles or cousins! -- LISTEN AGAIN - MOST CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE IS COMMITTED BY HIS/HER OWN FAMILY AND CLOSE FAMILY FRIENDS! You cannot trust your own brother or nephew! Is this sinking in? --- Or are you still too upset about the Catholic Church to absorb this? I'm equally upset about the Catholic Church (some leaders, not the entire Church), but I have learned something from this. I check the law enforcement sites and am aware of the sexual predators that live in the same zip code as my children. I don't trust anyone - not even atheists.
So why have you continued to support your church without question while it was committing these crimes? What have you ever done to see that those people who have committed crimes are being punished? There are countless decent Catholics who stopped supporting their church when they found out what it's been doing.
For the last time... I support my local parish, which has never been involved in a sex scandal or cover up.
rickdugan
09-29-2010, 04:53 PM
I guess as your church continues to commit atrocities (because really, why should they stop considering that you're going to continue handing over money no matter what happens?) You'll just continue to prattle off nonsense about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. No one is asking you to throw the baby out with the bath water. They are asking you to do something about that disgustingly filthy bathwater that you continue to allow your "baby" to sit in forever.
No, NAMBLA is not a religion. But if you follow the train of thought in this conversation, you'll see that's not relevant. Rick is defending overlooking the negative aspects of giving his money to the CC by arguing that they do good things as well. If that logic applies to the Church, then it applies to NAMBLA as well. I don't see what religion has to do with that, unless you believe that it's ok for the CC to get away with something we don't accept from other organizations simply because they have religious affiliation. But hey, for all I know maybe you do. It certainly looks that way.
And I guess you will continue to ranting nonsensical hyperbole in comparing the Catholic church to Nazis and an organization predicated upon pedophilia.
The point is that helping others is a core mission of the Catholic church, not a one-off good act. Like I said before, it helps millions each year (I added a lot of emphasis this time for ease of understanding). As we (except perhaps for Elvia) all know, the core missions of the other groups she mentioned were/are far more sinister.
Now your brilliant suggestion is that we all start closing Catholic soup kitchens, shelters and schools right now to punish the church for the bad acts of some (far from all) operating under its banner. Wow, got it. I'll starve needy people in my borough because some people in Ireland did some bad things. Sharp thinking there. ::)
And the word "atrocities" rings so dramatically. Keep using that and don't let accuracy get in the way ;) Given your faith and heritage, you of all people ought to be ashamed of comparing today's Catholic church to the Nazis, who slaughtered millions of Jews.
And btw, as to your comments about giving money to the government of Israel, IMHO the Israeli people are among the most resilient and admirable people in the world. They endure endless adversity, and have for several decades, yet they turned a barren land into an oasis not only for themselves, but for every Jew through the right of return. Only an American person of that faith (and probably Reform) could make a backhanded comment about a place that would offer her sanctuary simply because of a shared faith.
Kellydancer
09-29-2010, 04:58 PM
If we are blaming ALL Catholics for pedophiles, I'm blaming ALL Muslims for 9/11. See how stupid that sounds? So the next time I see a Muslim woman wearing a hijab I will call her a terrorist.
eagle2
09-29-2010, 07:44 PM
You repeat the same thing over and over, but lack any serious depth in your sensitivity to the issues. Try to elevate your thinking instead of spewing bigotted generalizations.
I'm not making generalizations. It was your entire church's policy to protect and cover-up crimes committed by priests against children. It's been documented.
From:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do
"In 2001, while he was a cardinal, he issued a secret Vatican edict to Catholic bishops all over the world, instructing them to put the Church's interests ahead of child safety.
The document recommended that rather than reporting sexual abuse to the relevant legal authorities, bishops should encourage the victim, witnesses and perpetrator not to talk about it. And, to keep victims quiet, it threatened that if they repeat the allegations they would be excommunicated."
I don't know of a single Catholic official who didn't go along with this policy. It was the entire church that went along with this policy, not isolated cases of individuals.
Again, for the thousandth time - I stand by your side and demand criminal investigations and prosecutions of all the guilty individuals in the Catholic Church (including the pedophile priests and anyone who covered up criminal acts), but when you blame an entire religion for the sins of some, that just shows you are a bigot.
When have you demanded this? When you donate money to your church, have you ever insisted that they remove all pedophile priests from the priesthood and fully cooperate with law-enforcement and the victims? Do you ever insist that your church stop trying to prevent people from having access to condoms and other forms of birth-control, or do you just give them money without question? If all Catholics did this, your church would have to stop pushing these abhorrent policies, or go out of business.
Of the tens or hundreds of thousands of Catholic diocese around the world, less than fifty had to deal with allegations regarding pedophile priests. We all agree that the those dioceses should have reported these allegations to the authorities and they should be held accountable.
What have you done to hold these people responsible? Your church is completely dependent on people like you to support them financially. As long as people are willing to fund your church without question, your church can get away with this.
But, you go as far as to condemn all the people who "run the church" - i.e., all the priests (in 2005, they numbered 406,411 throughout the world), bishops (about 5100 throughout the world), cardinals (about 184 throughout the world), the Pope, and the tens or hundreds of thousands of non-clergy Catholics in leadership positions around the world (hospitals, universities, schools, charities, etc.). This is ludicrous and bigotted.
It was all the people who run the church. As I stated before, the Vatican came up with a policy for all of its bishops, and their subordinates to follow. It seems that in every case, those people went along with the Vatican instead of doing what was right.
If we applied these same standards to the US government, we would have to lock up every US President and Congressmen in prison for the uber-long list of human rights violations committed around the world by American military personnel and defense contractors. Do you also condemn all the people who "run" the US (or any country in the world, for that matter) for human rights abuses? That's how terrorists defends their acts.
Our government is not a dictatorship. Not everyone in Congress goes along with our government's policies. The Catholic Church is a dictatorship. Every church official must go along with what the Vatican says.
That's silly. I am not a religious nut, but I am not going to ignore biggoted and ignorant comments that attack my faith.
Not once have I ever attacked your faith. I have condemned criminal acts committed by your church.
See, this is exactly the problem - You think it is only a Catholic Church problem. You will trust your kids with anyone, as long as they are not Catholic clergy. This illustrates the grave problem. Did you pay any attention to the statistics I mentioned earlier? The VAST number of child sexual abuse is committed by the kid's own family and close friends 60%! - Most often - fathers, uncles or cousins! -- LISTEN AGAIN - MOST CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE IS COMMITTED BY HIS/HER OWN FAMILY AND CLOSE FAMILY FRIENDS! You cannot trust your own brother or nephew! Is this sinking in? --- Or are you still too upset about the Catholic Church to absorb this? I'm equally upset about the Catholic Church (some leaders, not the entire Church), but I have learned something from this. I check the law enforcement sites and am aware of the sexual predators that live in the same zip code as my children. I don't trust anyone - not even atheists.
I don't think it is only a Catholic Church problem, but I don't know of any other organization that has gone as far as the Catholic Church in protecting and covering up for it's members who have committed crimes against children.
For the last time... I support my local parish, which has never been involved in a sex scandal or cover up.
and your local parish is controlled by the Vatican. The Vatican can use any money you contribute to your local parish any way it wants. The biggest source of funding for the Catholic Church is American Catholics.
eagle2
09-29-2010, 07:51 PM
Now your brilliant suggestion is that we all start closing Catholic soup kitchens, shelters and schools right now to punish the church for the bad acts of some (far from all) operating under its banner. Wow, got it. I'll starve needy people in my borough because some people in Ireland did some bad things. Sharp thinking there. ::)
There are plenty of other charitable organizations that you can contribute money to instead, that don't protect priests who commit crimes against children and don't use your contributions to fight against contraception.
And btw, as to your comments about giving money to the government of Israel, IMHO the Israeli people are among the most resilient and admirable people in the world. They endure endless adversity, and have for several decades, yet they turned a barren land into an oasis not only for themselves, but for every Jew through the right of return. Only an American person of that faith (and probably Reform) could make a backhanded comment about a place that would offer her sanctuary simply because of a shared faith.
and your church refused to even recognize Israel until close to 50 years after Israel first became an independent nation.
eagle2
09-29-2010, 07:52 PM
If we are blaming ALL Catholics for pedophiles, I'm blaming ALL Muslims for 9/11. See how stupid that sounds? So the next time I see a Muslim woman wearing a hijab I will call her a terrorist.
Nobody is blaming ALL Catholics for pedophiles.
Elvia
09-29-2010, 08:43 PM
And I guess you will continue to ranting nonsensical hyperbole in comparing the Catholic church to Nazis and an organization predicated upon pedophilia.
The point is that helping others is a core mission of the Catholic church, not a one-off good act. Like I said before, it helps millions each year (I added a lot of emphasis this time for ease of understanding). As we (except perhaps for Elvia) all know, the core missions of the other groups she mentioned were/are far more sinister.
I think your religion has trained you not to compare your church's actions to what it says. Because yeah, historically, your church has a tremendously horrible record. It's really been one of the most destructive organizations of that last thousand+ years. If you really want to weigh it, yeah, I think it's clear the world could have done with out it. It seems virtually the entire time your church has been preaching some sweet values and doing some good work, it's been committing some sort of atrocity or grave disservice to someone. But hey, it's cool. They'll silently get away with it now and issue an apology in 500 years. Like the great enlightened, forward thinking progressive institution it is.
Now your brilliant suggestion is that we all start closing Catholic soup kitchens, shelters and schools right now to punish the church for the bad acts of some (far from all) operating under its banner. Wow, got it. I'll starve needy people in my borough because some people in Ireland did some bad things. Sharp thinking there. ::)
Hey! Here's a novel idea you might grasp someday- how about all of you catholics who are supposedly so concerned pool all that money together, start your own organization, and address the situation correctly (you know, without slavery/beatings/sex abuse/false health information, etc). You seem to ignore that point a lot. Is that just too much free thinking for you? Is it just easier to keep following your "infallible" leader no matter what?
And the word "atrocities" rings so dramatically. Keep using that and don't let accuracy get in the way ;) Given your faith and heritage, you of all people ought to be ashamed of comparing today's Catholic church to the Nazis, who slaughtered millions of Jews.
If a century of slave labor camps filled mainly with children doesn't qualify as an atrocity you, then you might want to reevaluate things. You act like it's such an imposition on you to have to hear about it. And you wonder why Catholics come off insensitive the the crimes committed by their church? Because clearly, people like yourself are. SLAVE. LABOR. CAMPS. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that is WHAT IT IS.
And btw, as to your comments about giving money to the government of Israel, IMHO the Israeli people are among the most resilient and admirable people in the world. They endure endless adversity, and have for several decades, yet they turned a barren land into an oasis not only for themselves, but for every Jew through the right of return. Only an American person of that faith (and probably Reform) could make a backhanded comment about a place that would offer her sanctuary simply because of a shared faith.
I never even said I was against Israel. I said I was "really unsure about SOME things going on in Israel." I said if people were uncomfortable with giving money to Israel they have the option to avoid doing so (I HAVE given money to organizations in Israel, FYI). Though you might be interested to know that there are very traditional Jews who do not support Israel because they do not believe it is meant to be right now and is being forced artificially, for scripturally based reasons. It's not a viewpoint reserved strictly for modern liberal Jews. You'll find a lot more diversity of opinion throughout Judaism, we're not so threatened by that kind of thing.
The next time you try to resort to some pathetic attempt at deflection, maybe try to do a little more research.
Elvia
09-29-2010, 09:01 PM
If we are blaming ALL Catholics for pedophiles, I'm blaming ALL Muslims for 9/11. See how stupid that sounds? So the next time I see a Muslim woman wearing a hijab I will call her a terrorist.
I don't know why you keep repeating the same ideas over and over again when other people have responded to this already, instead of building on the conversation. We've explained to you the difference, that Islam is not organized the same way The Catholic Church is. The Mosques are not tied together in the same way your churches are.
I am not saying it is the same as being a pedophile yourself. What I said is that you continue to fund an organization that has a long and recent history of abuse. And yet, there are always so many Catholics who are so shocked when something goes wrong. Again.
Elvia
09-29-2010, 09:10 PM
people ought to be ashamed of comparing today's Catholic church to the Nazis, who slaughtered millions of Jews.
Do you really wanna be talking about "slaughtered millions?" Wow, I would not be opening that door if I was trying to defend the catholic church. You wanna take as a guess as to how many people have been killed by the Catholic Church throughout history?
Kellydancer
09-29-2010, 09:38 PM
Btw, I just wanted to add that last week I went to church and a woman was getting her car blessed. Her son was going on a retreat, her oldest son of 11 kids! Now that to me is way too many kids but she's not on welfare so I don't care.
rickdugan
09-30-2010, 10:40 AM
Elvia, it is clear to me that no amount of good done by the Catholic church today is going to outweigh the bad things in your eyes, which is starting to make this circular and pointless.
I was not deflecting when I said that you should be ashamed about comparing today's church to the Nazis - it was an absurd comment on its face. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that we should close soup kitchens and schools today in punishment for the Crusades?
Your statements about Catholics blindly contributing because of training were arrogant and misguided. We well know the issues that the Church has had but feel that the good it does, and teaches to our children, far outweighs the evils. I could say that the Catholic church helps billions each day and you would still not be swayed - you simply hate the church for the bad things that have been done in its name and no amount of good can overcome those things for you. Fine, you are entitled to your beliefs, but if there is anyone who is operating from blind emotion (hatred?) it is not the Catholics posting here.
But if you are going to continue to bash the church at least have your facts in order. The Magdalene asylums are one of many stains on the Catholic church - no doubt - but they affected 30,000 women over a 150 year span. They were also not originally founded by the Catholics at all, but rather by Protestants before the Catholics took them over. Also, in their earlier days they were not prison like but rather a place for "disgraced" women to hide - the evolution of a more prison-like atmosphere happened later. Heck, many of the women in these laundries in earlier decades were delivered there by their own family members. These operations were also self funding, so even in the mid eighties neither I nor my family members were "contributing" to them.
Now none of the above facts lessens the shame that they ever existed, particularly as long as they did, nor can I excuse the molestation issues or anything else that has happened under the church's watch. But, like I said before, I will not deprive people of help today because I hate some of what has happened in the church.
And btw, the comments you made about Catholics finding other ways to replicate the massive good charities already in place are just silly - the soup kitchens, shelters, schools, programs for the poor and countless other programs and institutions would be almost impossible to replace, either by groups of individuals or even other organizations. These things took generations to build and grow. But I suspect you really don't care - you just don't want a single dollar going to the church, period. So who is the insensitive one here, the Catholics, who know that not contributing today could hurt people now, or you, who believes that this is ok so long as it provides some theortical punishment for the church?
Again, this is all pointless as the Church can simply do no good in your eyes, but there it is.
eagle2
09-30-2010, 12:12 PM
Your statements about Catholics blindly contributing because of training were arrogant and misguided.
No, it's the truth. When have you ever told your church to change its abhorrent policies on condition of receiving your money? If all Catholics would do this, the church would not be able to continue its policies that are harming many people. For the Catholic Church, promoting their backward, ignorant views takes much higher precedence than helping the poor. A most recent example is in Washington DC, where the Catholic Church threatened to cut off social service to the homeless, if gay marriage is allowed there.
http://homelessness.change.org/blog/view/homeless_held_hostage_by_catholic_church_in_dc_fig ht_for_gay_marriage
Elvia
09-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Elvia, it is clear to me that no amount of good done by the Catholic church today is going to outweigh the bad things in your eyes, which is starting to make this circular and pointless.
Yup, that's kind of how it works. When you take with one hand what you give with the other, it might not equal out to you being such a good guy. That's like saying I should let the pedophile down the street carry on because he does so much charity work when he's not destroying a child's life.
I was not deflecting when I said that you should be ashamed about comparing today's church to the Nazis - it was an absurd comment on its face. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that we should close soup kitchens and schools today in punishment for the Crusades?
Sure you were, you couldn't even be bothered to get your facts straight first before you decided to bash Reforms for a belief that is by no means exclusively Reform, or even shared by all Reforms. Your church didn't murder people in your slave labor camps. You can pat yourself on the back for that, if that really doesn't make you feel like a giant jackass. I've explained to you how you could take your money and continue to do charity work. You have to ignore it. That's would be just too much responsibility for a sheep like yourself.
Your statements about Catholics blindly contributing because of training were arrogant and misguided. We well know the issues that the Church has had but feel that the good it does, and teaches to our children, far outweighs the evils. I could say that the Catholic church helps billions each day and you would still not be swayed - you simply hate the church for the bad things that have been done in its name and no amount of good can overcome those things for you. Fine, you are entitled to your beliefs, but if there is anyone who is operating from blind emotion (hatred?) it is not the Catholics posting here.
If you really think the good outweighs the bad you're delusional. Ofcourse, it doesn't matter anyway. You could break away and do good WITHOUT the bad! Charity without sex abuse and slavery! what a novel exciting idea that would be! your Catholic church destroyes billions of lives everyday. How many more people will contract aids now that the pope has urged them to cast off their condoms that "only make things worse?"I had no reason to believe the bad things your church does will suddenly stop, and you proved that to me when you showed me that your attitude is to keep handing over money no matter what. Why should they change? They've got you by the balls and they know it.
I wouldn't say I hated "Catholicism" before this thread. You're attempts to downplay your church's very recent history of slave labor camps is what really left me disgusted, and has made my anti- RCC views more extreme. I even talked about with my husband who comes from a Catholic family and we decided the situation is worse than we previously thought, and we will not be exposing our children to Catholicism in any way. We don't want them to grow up to be someone who waves their hand at abuse and objects to slave labor camps being called "atrocities" (seriously, I still can't believe you said that. Wow).
But if you are going to continue to bash the church at least have your facts in order.
Because you've been such a great example of that...
The Magdalene asylums are one of many stains on the Catholic church - no doubt - but they affected 30,000 women over a 150 year span. They were also not originally founded by the Catholics at all, but rather by Protestants before the Catholics took them over. Also, in their earlier days they were not prison like but rather a place for "disgraced" women to hide - the evolution of a more prison-like atmosphere happened later. Heck, many of the women in these laundries in earlier decades were delivered there by their own family members. These operations were also self funding, so even in the mid eighties neither I nor my family members were "contributing" to them.
you complain that in their earlier days they were run by the protestants...and then try to point to how much better things were in defense of the Catholic Church? Yes, even in the later days girls were delivered by their own families. It was a way to dispose of "disgraceful" women, or women who had been raped within the family. That's not a selling point. You weren't contributing to them, you were contributing directly to the slave owners. Who you'll now let quietly get away with it scot free.
Now none of the above facts lessens the shame that they ever existed, particularly as long as they did, nor can I excuse the molestation issues or anything else that has happened under the church's watch. But, like I said before, I will not deprive people of help today because I hate some of what has happened in the church.
The victims don't need your lip service. They need compensation. Which, being a good little Catholic, you would never dream of pressuring your church to supply! Do some simple math- when you give to one charity and not another, you naturally deprive someone. There's no way around that. Which is why most of us prefer to help build up the charities that DON'T regularly commit human rights abuses.
And btw, the comments you made about Catholics finding other ways to replicate the massive good charities already in place are just silly - the soup kitchens, shelters, schools, programs for the poor and countless other programs and institutions would be almost impossible to replace, either by groups of individuals or even other organizations. These things took generations to build and grow. But I suspect you really don't care - you just don't want a single dollar going to the church, period. So who is the insensitive one here, the Catholics, who know that not contributing today could hurt people now, or you, who believes that this is ok so long as it provides some theortical punishment for the church?
A soup kitchen is not impossible to replace. Especially since most Catholics are supposed to be horrified by these things right? Well, you're the ones with the power. You're the ones who provide the life blood. And...You're the ones who pretend that it's ok to destroy one life as long as you help another and call yourself "charitable." Sure, it would take some time, but isn't that a fair price to pay for stopping the abuse? you know that any other "charity" that shared your church's history of abuse would have been shut down long before it could do all this damage, and no one would be arguing to keep it open, and forgive and forget without any accountability. Because it's stupid.
Again, this is all pointless as the Church can simply do no good in your eyes, but there it is.
I've told you exactly what the church can do, many many times. It can give reparations to it's former slaves. The parishioners could start demanding these issues be addressed. I would respect that greatly. But again, that would involve more free thinking and responsibility, and that clearly goes against everything your Church is about. People like that would have no place being in your church and following a "infallible" man who freely gives out dangerous false information to people in third world countries. That alone should prove that Catholicism and critical thinking skills can not exist together.
Elvia
09-30-2010, 12:28 PM
No, it's the truth. When have you ever told your church to change its abhorrent policies on condition of receiving your money? If all Catholics would do this, the church would not be able to continue its policies that are harming many people. For the Catholic Church, promoting their backward, ignorant views takes much higher precedence than helping the poor. A most recent example is in Washington DC, where the Catholic Church threatened to cut off social service to the homeless, if gay marriage is allowed there.
http://homelessness.change.org/blog/view/homeless_held_hostage_by_catholic_church_in_dc_fig ht_for_gay_marriage
Wow. It really is just going to keep getting worse, isn't it?
Here's soem great quotes from that page:
"The church seems to have no problem leaving vulnerable men, women, and children out in the cold simply to make a point. While providing social services is often considered a benevolent activity, holding those reliant on these services hostage to advance a political agenda is an obscene abuse of power."
"This cruel ultimatum calls into question the Church's motives for serving the poor in the first place. In the Church's eyes, are the poorest among us people? Or simply pawns for advancing a cruel, intolerable political agenda?"
Yeah...I'm not seeing soem great Godly charitable organization. I'm seeing some thugs telling the world "do what we say and no one gets hurt."
The CC really has brass one here, it looks like they really don't even care about their public image at all! But then, why should they? All the good Catholics will give them money indefinitely, no matter what. They can literally do whatever they want.
MarvelGirl
09-30-2010, 12:42 PM
If religion wasn't involved, would any of you continue to give money to a charity after finding out that the people running the charity were using your money to cover up child molestation and slavery?
Seriously, step away from the religious aspect of the issue and ask yourself that.
If I found out a charity I gave money to was involved in that kind of crap, I'd stop giving them my money and find a better charity to fund. The Catholic Church is certainly not the only organization that feeds homeless people.
Why give to a group that uses some of your dollar to protect pedophiles and some to feed the homeless. Plenty of groups will use your dollar to feed the homeless without facilitating child rape.
rickdugan
09-30-2010, 01:03 PM
Elvia, with all due respect you are speaking from such a profound position of anger, sprinkled in with a fair amount of ignorance, that it is almost impossible to have a rational conversation about this.
One soup kitchen is not hard to replace, but the stunningly vast network of shelters, soup kitchens, schools, hospitals, outreach programs, and countless other programs and institutions WOULD be impossible to replace. That may be ok for you but not for me. Throwing the needy and homless out of these progams today is NOT ok to me, even if it is worth it to you.
And thank you kindly for explaining to me how I could otherwise use the money - by supporting other charities that MAY, SOMEDAY be able to replace what already exists and works. You are clearly a freethinker among a herd of sheep, looking beyond what others may view as common sense to REALLY see the truth. ::)
But now I'm also interested - what other "atrocities" are you currently concerned about? This is not a sarcastic question - I am actually curious.
Kellydancer
09-30-2010, 01:13 PM
If religion wasn't involved, would any of you continue to give money to a charity after finding out that the people running the charity were using your money to cover up child molestation and slavery?
Seriously, step away from the religious aspect of the issue and ask yourself that.
If I found out a charity I gave money to was involved in that kind of crap, I'd stop giving them my money and find a better charity to fund. The Catholic Church is certainly not the only organization that feeds homeless people.
Why give to a group that uses some of your dollar to protect pedophiles and some to feed the homeless. Plenty of groups will use your dollar to feed the homeless without facilitating child rape.
People often give money to organizations that do things they disapprove of. For instance look at taxes. I resent my taxes going to a single mom who has 10 kids I support. I don't support single parents on welfare yet I'm forced to support their (in my mind) immoral behavior.
My point being that yes we often have to support something we disapprove of (pedophilia, welfare queens) to support something we do support (helping the homeless, people who truly need help).
MarvelGirl
09-30-2010, 01:20 PM
People often give money to organizations that do things they disapprove of. For instance look at taxes. I resent my taxes going to a single mom who has 10 kids I support. I don't support single parents on welfare yet I'm forced to support their (in my mind) immoral behavior.
My point being that yes we often have to support something we disapprove of (pedophilia, welfare queens) to support something we do support (helping the homeless, people who truly need help).
Taxes and charity are absolutely not the same thing. You go to prison for not paying your taxes. You will not go to prison for refusing to support a charity.
I have absolutely never donated money to an organization that supports things I disapprove of. That's why I don't give a dime to PETA even though I do like animals.
Comparing charitable contributions to taxes is lame and I think you know that. It makes your argument look incredibly weak.
rickdugan
09-30-2010, 01:47 PM
If religion wasn't involved, would any of you continue to give money to a charity after finding out that the people running the charity were using your money to cover up child molestation and slavery?
Seriously, step away from the religious aspect of the issue and ask yourself that.
If I found out a charity I gave money to was involved in that kind of crap, I'd stop giving them my money and find a better charity to fund. The Catholic Church is certainly not the only organization that feeds homeless people.
Why give to a group that uses some of your dollar to protect pedophiles and some to feed the homeless. Plenty of groups will use your dollar to feed the homeless without facilitating child rape.
Again, I agree that these were horrible incidents. I also agree that the church has handled itself very badly in dealing with these issues. However, contrary to ranting comments above from another poster about us "sheep", Catholics have NOT been silent on these issues and, indeed, not only are the asylums closed but pedophile priests are being treated much differently now.
But also step back and consider the vastness of the Catholic church and everything done under its banner. Just by the laws of probability there are bound to be problems from time to time - it is unavoidable given the vast number of people operating in its name.
In an earlier post I mentioned that one CANNOT separate the religion from breathtakingly vast network of charities because it is one that feeds into the other. The church feeds, shelters and educates the poor, comforts the sick and dying, runs charitable hospitals, etc., because its members support these activities out of, at least in part, religious conviction. Millions of people worldwide benefit from what is done by the church. The great works done every year by the Catholic church are just too numerous to count.
And frankly, I trust the motives of a religious charity far more than I do a secular one, and I give not only to my church and Archdiocese but also to a couple of other faith based charities. It is, as I mentioned before, primarily faith based charities that run the most critical programs reaching out directly to needy populations, and the Catholic church represents a significant portion of those efforts in the U.S.
Elvia
09-30-2010, 01:51 PM
People often give money to organizations that do things they disapprove of. For instance look at taxes. I resent my taxes going to a single mom who has 10 kids I support. I don't support single parents on welfare yet I'm forced to support their (in my mind) immoral behavior.
My point being that yes we often have to support something we disapprove of (pedophilia, welfare queens) to support something we do support (helping the homeless, people who truly need help).
Taxes are not the equivalent, as has already been discussed (really, you should read the thread again so you don't keep taking us around in circles again and again). One has to legally pay taxes. One is forced to pay taxes. It's not the same thing as deciding who to support and who not to support. You have to pay taxes. You do not HAVE to give money to the Catholic church. You can help the needy by supporting one of the many charities that are not so corrupt.
Kellydancer
09-30-2010, 01:56 PM
You are aware that most charities are also corrupt don't you? United Way is beyond dirty and the biggest ones are also dirty.
Elvia
09-30-2010, 01:58 PM
Again, I agree that these were horrible incidents. I also agree that the church has handled itself very badly in dealing with these issues. However, contrary to ranting comments above from another poster about us "sheep", Catholics have NOT been silent on these issues and, indeed, not only are the asylums closed but pedophile priests are being treated much differently now.
Right. You occasionally mutter about how unfortunate it is in between talking about you just have to keep giving them money no matter what happens. Oh, and rolling your eyes and acting like it's just so beneath you that you should even have to hear about people who's lives were destroyed. Excuse us if that doesn't look like sincere concern to us. It's not enough to just close the asylums. Does that mean I can kidnap someone, keep them in my basement and force them to work for me for years, then let them go and get away with it free and clear? Of course not.
But also step back and consider the vastness of the Catholic church and everything done under its banner.
clearly you do not. You excuse everything as soon as it happens as being "in the past" when it is an unpleasant thing to face. You celebrate the good things forever. You do not really consider it all. You cherry pick.
Just by the laws of probability there are bound to be problems from time to time - it is unavoidable given the vast number of people operating in its name.
In an earlier post I mentioned that one CANNOT separate the religion from breathtakingly vast network of charities because it is one that feeds into the other. The church feeds, shelters and educates the poor,
comforts the sick and dying, runs charitable hospitals, etc., because its members support these activities out of, at least in part, religious conviction. Millions of people worldwide benefit from what is done by the church. The great works done every year by the Catholic church are just too numerous to count.
until they can use it as a bargaining chip to try to force their religious beliefs into law. Then, to hell with the poor!
And frankly, I trust the motives of a religious charity far more than I do a secular one,
Then you have learned nothing. Your views clearly have no bearing on reality. Your religion has severely compromised your ability to honestly consider the evidence.
and I give not only to my church and Archdiocese but also to a couple of other faith based charities. It is, as I mentioned before, primarily faith based charities that run the most critical programs reaching out directly to needy populations, and the Catholic church represents a significant portion of those efforts in the U.S.
And if someone else's child has to be raped and coerced into silence so that someone else can have a meal, so be it! You'll accept that and pat yourself on the back for it.
Elvia
09-30-2010, 02:02 PM
You are aware that most charities are also corrupt don't you? United Way is beyond dirty and the biggest ones are also dirty.
then do your research and find a charity that does have a good track record. Though if you're willing to keep giving to the Catholic church despite all this, then I can't imagine you could complain about any other charities. I defy you to find a "charity" in existence today with a worse track record. And let's try to have some intellectual integrity about it. Some Amish kids sneaking alcohol is not the equivalent of a massive and long standing policy of covering up child rape.
Kellydancer
09-30-2010, 02:07 PM
then do your research and find a charity that does have a good track record. Though if you're willing to keep giving to the Catholic church despite all this, then I can't imagine you could complain about any other charities. I defy you to find a "charity" in existence today with a worse track record. And let's try to have some intellectual integrity about it. Some Amish kids sneaking alcohol is not the equivalent of a massive and long standing policy of covering up child rape.
But many people willingly (and in many cases are pressured) to give to "charities" like United Way which are very dirty. Do they have a history of molesting? Not them directly but it's possible an organization they give to does.
No sneaking alcohol isn't the same thing but 9/11 commited by MUSLIM fanatics IS the same thing. In fact Islam creates far more hate in the world than Catholics. When was the last time you heard of the Vatican beheading a woman because she was raped? When was the last time they attacked civilians? I haven't. Btw, from what I've read Muslims have a high rate of child rape as well but this is concealed from the media because they want to be PC.
Elvia
09-30-2010, 02:19 PM
But many people willingly (and in many cases are pressured) to give to "charities" like United Way which are very dirty.
That's no more excuse for them than it is for Catholics. They need to take responsibility for where there money goes, unless someone is holding a gun to their head or threatening them in some way.
Do they have a history of molesting? Not them directly but it's possible an organization they give to does.
No sneaking alcohol isn't the same thing but 9/11 commited by MUSLIM fanatics IS the same thing.
No, it's not. If all mosques were funding those terrorists, then it would be. But that is NOT the case. I don't know how many times this can be explained to you. It really can't be made any clearer. I really can't understand why every exchange we have has to include this same argument from you, and my same response.
In fact Islam creates far more hate in the world than Catholics.
I'm not convinced of that.
When was the last time you heard of the Vatican beheading a woman because she was raped? When was the last time they attacked civilians? I haven't. Btw, from what I've read Muslims have a high rate of child rape as well but this is concealed from the media because they want to be PC.
when you can offer some evidence of specific situations like that, we will deal with that. Meanwhile, it did happen in your church. On a grand scale. It was the POLICY of your church, and everyone who was told to go along with it did.
Kellydancer
09-30-2010, 02:24 PM
How do you know everyone was "told to go along with it"? Did they tell you. You honestly don't know unless they told you. If you are going to say you heard about it from the media, be aware (as I've stressed) the media has an anti Catholic bias and always have (for further info, just look at how JFK was attacked).
I will tell my priest tonight that he's not doing a good job protecting kids and he was involved in the coverup. First, he'll look at me strange, second he'll ask me what I'm talking about.
Elvia
09-30-2010, 07:38 PM
How do you know everyone was "told to go along with it"? Did they tell you. You honestly don't know unless they told you.
Read post 513 and follow the link so I don't have to keep repeating to you what's already been said. Yeah, there's plenty of evidence that this was the policy.
I will tell my priest tonight that he's not doing a good job protecting kids and he was involved in the coverup. First, he'll look at me strange, second he'll ask me what I'm talking about.
Yeah, I'm sure he also has a way of justifying continued support for an organization with a long and current history of abuse, while distancing himself when it suits him. You all seem to. You have to.
flickad
10-01-2010, 04:16 AM
People often give money to organizations that do things they disapprove of. For instance look at taxes. I resent my taxes going to a single mom who has 10 kids I support. I don't support single parents on welfare yet I'm forced to support their (in my mind) immoral behavior.
My point being that yes we often have to support something we disapprove of (pedophilia, welfare queens) to support something we do support (helping the homeless, people who truly need help).
Tax is a different story because it is a payment mandated by law as opposed to a voluntary one, even if you do, in fact, support at least some of the services your taxes fund.
rickdugan
10-01-2010, 05:39 PM
Elvia, like I said before I think this is becoming circular and pointless. To sum it up, I (and some other Catholics) believe that the enormous good done by the Catholic church around the world so far outweighs the bad that I cannot imagine not supporting it. You believe that it is an evil organization with dubious intent and that its good acts do not outweigh the "atrocities" committed under its banner. Please correct me if I have misrepresented anything, but I doubt that either side is going to come closer to the view of the other and we are now starting to become repetitive.
But I couldn't help but be interested in one new comment you made above. In response to one of my comments relating to all of the good done by the church in helping the poor, you responded with the following:
until they can use it as a bargaining chip to try to force their religious beliefs into law. Then, to hell with the poor!
Is it your belief that the Catholic Church serves as the largest charitable organization in the world primarily in order to impose its beliefs upon the governments of sovereign countries? No sarcasm in my question, just genuine curiousity.
Elvia
10-01-2010, 05:55 PM
^^^ I am starting to suspect so, yes. I think the Catholic Church is, and always has been, primarily interested in control and wealth. I believe they are only interested in doing good deeds to the extent that it can improve their image and use it to excuse the harm they have always done, and continue to do. It has certainly worked on you, hasn't it? You've made it very clear that there is nothing they can do that would cause you to withdraw your support, as long as they are doing some good deeds on the side. And now, they certainly are trying to use it as a bargaining chip in DC. They are taking advantage of the fact that we have sub-par social services in this country to offer "help," only to use it as political leverage to impose their doctrine on everyone. It is something that Catholics and other Christians have been doing all over the world for centuries- taking advantage of need to further their own agenda.
rickdugan
10-01-2010, 06:25 PM
^^^ I am starting to suspect so, yes. I think the Catholic Church is, and always has been, primarily interested in control and wealth. I believe they are only interested in doing good deeds to the extent that it can improve their image and use it to excuse the harm they have always done, and continue to do. It has certainly worked on you, hasn't it? You've made it very clear that there is nothing they can do that would cause you to withdraw your support, as long as they are doing some good deeds on the side. And now, they certainly are trying to use it as a bargaining chip in DC. They are taking advantage of the fact that we have sub-par social services in this country to offer "help," only to use it as political leverage to impose their doctrine on everyone. It is something that Catholics and other Christians have been doing all over the world for centuries- taking advantage of need to further their own agenda.
Has it and have I? Or has my point all along been that, IMO, the vast magnitude and depth of good done by the modern Catholic Church far outweighs the isloated bad acts of some people operating under its banner?
Of course you think that I am somehow blinded to the issues within the church by religious beliefs and training. In turn, I believe that your outrage over isolated bad acts has made you irrational on the topic of the incredible good the church does around the world. I also believe that you have deep seated resentment of Christian religions that goes far beyond this conversation and the "atrocities" discussed here. However, the point is that each of us believes the other to be blinded to clear sight on this and I doubt that either of us will be convinced otherwise.
As to the rest, I honestly don't believe that you and I have enough information about its lobbying efforts around the world to form a knowledgable opinion one way or the other, but if the massive charity work of the church is ultimately a ploy to gain control over governments then the church has done a piss poor job of it. Virtually none of its tenents relating to personal behavior are reflected in law in most countries. Hell, recently the Vatican could not even keep its home country from freezing its disbursement account and investigating senior Vatican bank officials.
Dirty Ernie
10-01-2010, 08:11 PM
I guess we shouldn't expect someone to hold their church to any sort of higher moral standard than that which they hold for themselves.
Rick, you do know adultery is a mortal sin and reveling in a mortal sin results in condemnation to hell, don't you? Do you actually attend church? Or is the Church just your beard?
Now I never really expected SW to be populated by pious Catholics, but those that claim to be Catholic should at least exhibit a molecule of a clue of what their religion demands.
The Church cannot be absolved from it's sins through the good works of it's followers.
eagle2
10-02-2010, 12:07 AM
Elvia, like I said before I think this is becoming circular and pointless.
That's because of your complete indifference to facts and evidence.
To sum it up, I (and some other Catholics) believe that the enormous good done by the Catholic church around the world so far outweighs the bad that I cannot imagine not supporting it.
No, you support it because you are beholden to your religion. The harm your church does to millions of people is so obvious that even many Catholics are able to see it.
Let's look at some of the ways your church spends its money. It's already spent over a billion dollars to pay for its sex abuse cases throughout the US.
It's spending $190 million on a cathedral in Oakland.
http://www.calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=66e60ca5-8d46-4e6e-822d-f4dee81b6769
$180 million on a cathedral in Los Angeles, including $3 million just for the doors, and $1 million for the bishop's chair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_of_Our_Lady_of_the_Angels
In Minnesota, the church paid to produce 800,000 DVD's opposing gay marriage, and send them to ever Catholic in the state.
http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/taking_the_minnesota_catholic_churchs_anti-gay_campaign_and_turning_it_into_art
Do you really think that other charitable organizations spend this lavishly? Imagine how many poor people could be fed with all of this money.
In addition, look at all of the harm done with the money you contribute. The Catholic Church consistently spends your money to try to prevent as many females as possible from having access to contraception, even if it means spreading AID's. Catholic hospitals do not offer reproductive services for women. Rape victims who go to Catholic hospitals cannot get a morning-after pill, except maybe in states that require hospitals to offer it. Women cannot get abortions in Catholic hospitals, even if it's medically necessary.
How much harm would your church have to do for you to stop supporting it, or is there no limit?
You believe that it is an evil organization with dubious intent and that its good acts do not outweigh the "atrocities" committed under its banner. Please correct me if I have misrepresented anything, but I doubt that either side is going to come closer to the view of the other and we are now starting to become repetitive.
But I couldn't help but be interested in one new comment you made above. In response to one of my comments relating to all of the good done by the church in helping the poor, you responded with the following:
until they can use it as a bargaining chip to try to force their religious beliefs into law. Then, to hell with the poor!
Is it your belief that the Catholic Church serves as the largest charitable organization in the world primarily in order to impose its beliefs upon the governments of sovereign countries? No sarcasm in my question, just genuine curiousity.
I doubt the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. Catholic Charities is ranked #7 in the US.
http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/listid/5918/Money++Real+Estate/The+100+Largest+US+Charities.aspx
It's blatantly obvious that your church's goal is to impose it's backward beliefs on contraception, abortion, and gays on everyone else.
rickdugan
10-02-2010, 05:49 AM
I doubt the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world. Catholic Charities is ranked #7 in the US.
Catholic Charities is just one piece of what is done by the church in the U.S. Many of the outreach and aid programs are run directly by each Archdioces. Additionally, the church runs aid and outreach programs all over the world, so when you tally up everything done by Catholic organizations and institutions around the world I sincerely doubt any other single charity organization comes remotely close.
With respect to the other "facts and evidence" you can one-off things that you don't like about Church activities all day but it does not change vast good it does wordlwide. It is obviously a religion also. If a local church built a lavish entryway or building it is because the local parishioners supported it, otherwise it would not have happened (note: for those who do not get this each church is funded locally by its parishioners, as is each Archdiocese). If they sent a video against gay marriage it is because they did so for religious reasons.
Again, Catholics that support the church do so for many reasons. For me it is for the reasons I have stated. I do not support every tenent of its beliefs, but I do believe that, in the grand scheme of things, the church does vastly more good than harm in this world.
rickdugan
10-02-2010, 06:01 AM
I guess we shouldn't expect someone to hold their church to any sort of higher moral standard than that which they hold for themselves.
http://forum.stripperweb.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1991028
Rick, you do know adultery is a mortal sin and reveling in a mortal sin results in condemnation to hell, don't you? Do you actually attend church? Or is the Church just your beard?
Now I never really expected SW to be populated by pious Catholics, but those that claim to be Catholic should at least exhibit a molecule of a clue of what their religion demands.
The Church cannot be absolved from it's sins through the good works of it's followers.
Not pious at all, just irritated by the bashing of the church. I am actually the last person that I ever thought would be having this discussion on here - but there it is.
And I don't claim to believe in everything that they preach. One of my biggest issues with the church is the prohibition on priests marrying, which I believe has led to a proponderance of certain personality types in the priesthood.
And the first statement you made was just stupid unless you are implying that I am a pedophile or slave owner.
flickad
10-02-2010, 08:25 AM
Oh, come on Rick. The Magdalene Laundries operated for 100 years and were not isolated bad acts. Nor is the policy of covering up paedophilia committed within the church. And using quotation marks when you call these things atrocities just insults the victims.
By all means, follow your faith or whatever faith you like, but please don't stick your head in the sand when it comes to the terrible things that have gone on, and continue to go on, under its banner.
I'm aware that many, possibly even most Catholics are good people. I'm also aware that the Church has behaved abominably in many ways and continues to do so in certain respects. Evading that fact or being dishonest about it is something that makes ordinary Catholics look a little less like good people and a little more like they support the cover ups going on at the Vatican level.
Elvia
10-02-2010, 06:16 PM
Has it and have I? Or has my point all along been that, IMO, the vast magnitude and depth of good done by the modern Catholic Church far outweighs the isloated bad acts of some people operating under its banner?
It stopped being "isolated" when it became a conspiracy to cover up child abuse and protect pedophiles. If these things are all "isolated incidents" then why does your pope never speak out against it? Your "infallible" leader? Are you sure you know what "isolated"means? If the magdalyne laundries are some "isolated" incident that the rest of your church just had no idea was going on, then why isn't anyone stepping up to offer compensation, instead of remaining silent about it?
Of course you think that I am somehow blinded to the issues within the church by religious beliefs and training. In turn, I believe that your outrage over isolated bad acts has made you irrational on the topic of the incredible good the church does around the world. I also believe that you have deep seated resentment of Christian religions that goes far beyond this conversation and the "atrocities" discussed here. However, the point is that each of us believes the other to be blinded to clear sight on this and I doubt that either of us will be convinced otherwise.
Slave labor camps are enough to breed resentment in most people. The fact that it's not in you, and that you don't see it as an "atrocity" is by far the most disturbing attitude I have ever witnessed from a Catholic parishioner. That is seriously fucked up.
As to the rest, I honestly don't believe that you and I have enough information about its lobbying efforts around the world to form a knowledgable opinion one way or the other, but if the massive charity work of the church is ultimately a ploy to gain control over governments then the church has done a piss poor job of it. Virtually none of its tenents relating to personal behavior are reflected in law in most countries. Hell, recently the Vatican could not even keep its home country from freezing its disbursement account and investigating senior Vatican bank officials.
If it was truly about charity, the church wouldn't be using the poor in DC as pawns in their political game. That should really tell you something. But of course it won't. Because you can't have critical thinking skills and be a Catholic.
Elvia
10-02-2010, 06:22 PM
And using quotation marks when you call these things atrocities just insults the victims.
Exactly. It is absolutely disgusting. Rick, Let's stick your ass in a slave labor camp for the majority of your life, beat you, maybe let you be the victim of some sexual assault, then let the perpetrators go free without a word and see if you don't think it's an "atrocity" then. Let's see if it doesn't hurt you when people roll their eyes when you tell your story then. I bet you don't even have the guts to watch the documentary about the Magdalene laundries. Your attitude towards people who have been victimized by your church is truly sickening.
Elvia
10-02-2010, 06:35 PM
Definitions of atrocity:
the quality of being shockingly cruel and inhumane
an act of atrocious cruelty
An extremely cruel act; a horrid act of injustice
If a conspiracy to allow child rape to continue for decades and slave labor camps don't qualify in your mind as extremely cruel acts or injustice (never mind the many torturous deaths attributable to the Catholic church historically) then good God, what the fuck does?
Kellydancer
10-02-2010, 10:42 PM
And I don't claim to believe in everything that they preach. One of my biggest issues with the church is the prohibition on priests marrying, which I believe has led to a proponderance of certain personality types in the priesthood.
This is the biggest problem, the priesthood. There is actually a group of priests here trying to open the idea of ordaining women, which I fully support. I feel eventually the church will allow married people and women to become priests.
Oh and the Catholic Church aren't the only ones strongly against gays. James Meeks, the minster of Salem Baptist Church often bashes gays, yet he's a Democrat. He's an awful person on other levels (sexist and racist too) but somehow the gay bashing is something people throw out against Catholics.
Do I like how the Catholic Church excludes gays? No but this is how they are and they aren't the only anti gay organization.
Elvia
10-02-2010, 11:14 PM
^^^ We're not talking about excluding gays (though that is terrible, and I do find myself wondering yet again why you continue to support an organization when you think so many of the things they do are horrible). We're talking about the Catholic church threatening to close its charities in D.C. if the people of D.C. vote to give equal rights to gays. It is especially relevant to this discussion because Rick loves to point to the soup kitchens as evidence of the good in the Catholic Church. It now appears as if they are more interested in using the poor as a bargaining chip than in actually helping them.
No, they aren't the only anti-gay organization. But do you donate to the other anti-gay organizations?