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Kellydancer
10-02-2010, 11:38 PM
^^^ We're not talking about excluding gays (though that is terrible, and I do find myself wondering yet again why you continue to support an organization when you think so many of the things they do are horrible). We're talking about the Catholic church threatening to close its charities in D.C. if the people of D.C. vote to give equal rights to gays. It is especially relevant to this discussion because Rick loves to point to the soup kitchens as evidence of the good in the Catholic Church. It now appears as if they are more interested in using the poor as a bargaining chip than in actually helping them.

No, they aren't the only anti-gay organization. But do you donate to the other anti-gay organizations?

But the racist jerk I posted above plans to run for higher office and he'll be more dangerous than Catholics.

Elvia
10-02-2010, 11:44 PM
^^^ And that's a valid complaint. But it doesn't excuse the CC for it's anti-gay efforts either. Nor does it explain why you continue to devote yourself to an institution that seems to run counter to so many of your convictions.

Kellydancer
10-03-2010, 12:05 AM
Because there are many of the views I DO agree with. I do agree with their stances of out of wedlock and divorce (though I make exceptions for things like infidelity or abuse). The church also supports the idea of universal healthcare and education.

Elvia
10-03-2010, 12:07 AM
^^^ There are many, many religions that those views would fit in well with. I just honestly don't understand why you would pick this one, that you have so many problems with.

eagle2
10-03-2010, 12:10 AM
Catholic Charities is just one piece of what is done by the church in the U.S. Many of the outreach and aid programs are run directly by each Archdioces. Additionally, the church runs aid and outreach programs all over the world, so when you tally up everything done by Catholic organizations and institutions around the world I sincerely doubt any other single charity organization comes remotely close.

Bill Gates probably spends more of his own money on his charitable foundation than the Catholic Church does. Unlike the Catholic Church, Bill Gates doesn't have ulterior motives for helping others. Unlike the Catholic Church, Bill Gates doesn't spend millions of dollars to harm others.



With respect to the other "facts and evidence" you can one-off things that you don't like about Church activities all day but it does not change vast good it does wordlwide. It is obviously a religion also. If a local church built a lavish entryway or building it is because the local parishioners supported it, otherwise it would not have happened (note: for those who do not get this each church is funded locally by its parishioners, as is each Archdiocese). If they sent a video against gay marriage it is because they did so for religious reasons.

Again, Catholics that support the church do so for many reasons. For me it is for the reasons I have stated. I do not support every tenent of its beliefs, but I do believe that, in the grand scheme of things, the church does vastly more good than harm in this world.

Can you stop repeating your lie about supporting the church because it "does vastly more good than harm in this world". It clearly doesn't. The reason you support your church is so that you'll have a place to go where you can perform your childish, superstitious rituals. You obviously have no concern for the countless people, many of them women and children, harmed by your church.

Why do you even come to this forum, which is meant to support women, while at the same time you support an organization whose intent is to harm women? Your church is doing everything it can to try to prevent the women here from having access to contraception. If any of the women here were to get raped, your church would do everything it can to prevent her from getting a morning-after pill. If one of the women here were to get raped and become pregnant, your church would do everything it could to prevent her from getting an abortion. If one of the women here were to become pregnant and have life-threatening complications with her pregnancy, your church would fight to prevent her from getting an abortion, even if it meant she would die. In Brazil, your church excommunicated a doctor for performing an abortion for a nine year old girl, even though giving birth would most likely have killed her. None of this matters to you. For you, having a place to go to get your Jesus crackers is more important than anything else.

AngelKing
10-03-2010, 05:29 AM
Definitions of atrocity:

the quality of being shockingly cruel and inhumane
an act of atrocious cruelty
An extremely cruel act; a horrid act of injustice

If a conspiracy to allow child rape to continue for decades and slave labor camps don't qualify in your mind as extremely cruel acts or injustice (never mind the many torturous deaths attributable to the Catholic church historically) then good God, what the fuck does?

Don't we all support an atrocious regime every time we buy anything made in China?

Kellydancer
10-03-2010, 11:07 AM
Don't we all support an atrocious regime every time we buy anything made in China?

Yep! People always attack the Catholic Church, but China has a worse human rights record and people think nothing of buying products from China. Not to mention these products ruined our economy.

Elvia
10-03-2010, 01:14 PM
Don't we all support an atrocious regime every time we buy anything made in China?

Yes, we do. Which is why we should try our best not to do that. Beyond issues of internal political issues in China, there's the fact that many of these Chinese goods are often dangerous to our health. And, of course, it certainly helps the US economy and American workers to buy American whenever possible. If you're on a budget and can't avoid more expensive new items made in America, buying second hand is a great way to avoid some of these problems. Etsy.com can be a nice way to buy items off all types, made by independent artisans. You can find items within all price ranges there. I found a clutch purse for my wedding that was exactly what I was looking for, for under $20 (custom made). Far cheaper than any mass produced options I had found. You can even search for items in your own local area. On ebay, you can find good quality used goods from responsible companies for a fraction of the original cost, or high quality durable vintage goods.

Kelly, you're just trying to point the finger at other's wrongdoings to excuse your church's wrongdoings. It doesn't work that way. It's a logical fallacy. That's why no one is taking the bait. You and your church will either address their own internal problems or you/they won't. What everyone else is doing does not make it any more or less right. If every institution that did something wrong could just point the finger elsewhere, nothing would ever be addressed and there would be no chance of anything being rectified.

eagle2
10-03-2010, 05:42 PM
Because there are many of the views I DO agree with. I do agree with their stances of out of wedlock and divorce (though I make exceptions for things like infidelity or abuse). The church also supports the idea of universal healthcare and education.

The Catholic Church's strong opposition to contraception is a major contributing factor to out of wedlock births. They are opposed to divorce, even in cases of infidelity or abuse. In Ireland, the Catholic Church kept divorce illegal, until a referendum was passed in 1996 allowing it. I remember once reading an article about women being forced to stay with abusive husbands in Ireland because divorce was illlegal. I remember reading about one woman who was married to an abusive husband, who went to a nun with her problems, and the nun's response was, "that's a cross you'll have to bear". It seems your church is indifferent to the suffering of others.

The church opposed health care reform, which will result in near universal health care, and was almost able to get it defeated.

AngelKing
10-03-2010, 08:18 PM
Yes, we do. Which is why we should try our best not to do that. Beyond issues of internal political issues in China, there's the fact that many of these Chinese goods are often dangerous to our health. And, of course, it certainly helps the US economy and American workers to buy American whenever possible. If you're on a budget and can't avoid more expensive new items made in America, buying second hand is a great way to avoid some of these problems. Etsy.com can be a nice way to buy items off all types, made by independent artisans. You can find items within all price ranges there. I found a clutch purse for my wedding that was exactly what I was looking for, for under $20 (custom made). Far cheaper than any mass produced options I had found. You can even search for items in your own local area. On ebay, you can find good quality used goods from responsible companies for a fraction of the original cost, or high quality durable vintage goods.

Kelly, you're just trying to point the finger at other's wrongdoings to excuse your church's wrongdoings. It doesn't work that way. It's a logical fallacy. That's why no one is taking the bait. You and your church will either address their own internal problems or you/they won't. What everyone else is doing does not make it any more or less right. If every institution that did something wrong could just point the finger elsewhere, nothing would ever be addressed and there would be no chance of anything being rectified.


I don't debate religion in real life, so I will not debate it on the internet. My comment was totally non-partisan, and was more to illustrate that these days, it's hard to point moral fingers at other people. And yes, I'm just as guilty as you or anyone else.

Kellydancer
10-03-2010, 08:33 PM
The Catholic Church's strong opposition to contraception is a major contributing factor to out of wedlock births. They are opposed to divorce, even in cases of infidelity or abuse. In Ireland, the Catholic Church kept divorce illegal, until a referendum was passed in 1996 allowing it. I remember once reading an article about women being forced to stay with abusive husbands in Ireland because divorce was illlegal. I remember reading about one woman who was married to an abusive husband, who went to a nun with her problems, and the nun's response was, "that's a cross you'll have to bear". It seems your church is indifferent to the suffering of others.

The church opposed health care reform, which will result in near universal health care, and was almost able to get it defeated.

I feel divorce should be allowed in cases of infidelity and abuse. Those to me are situations that no one should put up with.

I haven't been following the churches opposition to healthcare reform, but likely due to abortion coverage. I do not support this healthcare reform because it will actually hurt people like me who can't afford insurance but don't qualify for programs.

Hopper
10-11-2010, 06:07 AM
If anyone's still interested I found this article on AIDs prevention in Africa. It references an article in The Lancet criticizing the condom programmes.

http://pop.org/content/aids-in-africa-88

You know The Lancet?