View Full Version : Is it possible to be a feminist stripper anymore??
charlie61
01-07-2010, 03:39 PM
^ Sex negative feminism isn't 'against sex', just like sex positive feminism isn't about being 'for sex'. It's much more complicated than that. It's much more discursive than that.
It's a huge stretch to claim that sex negative feminism is obsolete. Far from it.
xXmy shanghai sweetieXx
01-07-2010, 04:30 PM
Haha um...I live in Montreal and am currently taking women studies, human sexuality and psychology at McGill university. I'm very actively involved in the feminist community, so I'm pretty sure I know the state of feminism today, and while I'm sure there are plenty of women uh..."against sex" who may identify as feminists. It is very rare, and not an accepted view anymore. In fact, in all my school years, and community outreach etc..I've never once met a women who identified as that. Like I said, generally feminists who are referred to as "sex negative" are simply against the sex industry, the commercialization of womens bodies, and calling them sex negative is a way to slander them.
I know loads of women who are involved in feminism and also work in the sex industry like me.
The stuff you said about objectification doesn't even make sense. I highly doubt that the majority of women who strip do so because they get turned on by being dehumanized. After 10 years I haven't met many who do. In fact it's the exact opposite. Also I like how you pulled the old rape fantasy card. Because, if women fantasize about it, it makes it ok then, right? Nevermind that rape fantasies don't even exist, since the definition of rape is sex against ones will, and fantasies are completely on a womens own terms.
Either way with feminism you want to think with a mindest of, what is best as a whole for our gender? Objectification is not best. It is very negative. If there are a small amount of women who are turned on by that, that's fine! But let us not get confused with the idea that, it is all womens experience. The majority of women feel terrible when being objectified. Although, god forbid we say we do, don't want to ruin the male fantasy of how we love being doormats for them and their dollar!
Its a shitty arguement, i think its mainly men who fantasise over women who secretly want to be raped, paedophiles often argue children like being abused and that its healthy!
snowpea
01-07-2010, 09:41 PM
Its a shitty arguement, i think its mainly men who fantasise over women who secretly want to be raped, paedophiles often argue children like being abused and that its healthy!
exactly...
sxcbbw
01-08-2010, 12:39 AM
The stuff you said about objectification doesn't even make sense. I highly doubt that the majority of women who strip do so because they get turned on by being dehumanized. After 10 years I haven't met many who do. In fact it's the exact opposite. Also I like how you pulled the old rape fantasy card. Because, if women fantasize about it, it makes it ok then, right? Nevermind that rape fantasies don't even exist, since the definition of rape is sex against ones will, and fantasies are completely on a womens own terms.
Wow, for someone that studies so much you sure do have a hilariously black and white view.
1. Did I ever make any statement about how many women feel this way? No, I explained why certain women feel this way. Again, the concept behind certain people enjoying objectification, is the same as being aroused by objects or fantasies.
2. Did I ever condone rape? No, I explained that women have - yes, they do - rape fantasies. Before you go insane and assume I mean every single woman on the planet, that has ever lived or ever will - I don't. But they are common enough. Are you really trying to tell me that people are incapable of fantasising over things that are illogical, or y'know, fantasies? No kid in the world has ever daydreamed about unicorns because unicorns don't exist. See how inane that logic is? Women (and to reiterate, not every woman) fantasise about rape. You're studying psychology and didn't know that? Damn. It's a pretty widely studied thing, too.
Its a shitty arguement, i think its mainly men who fantasise over women who secretly want to be raped, paedophiles often argue children like being abused and that its healthy!
And yet again, you'd think someone on a sex industry forum would understand the concept of women being into alternate sexuality choices than you. You can think whatever you like sweetie, but there are women out there right now, dreaming about it with hands down their pants.
Either way with feminism you want to think with a mindest of, what is best as a whole for our gender? Objectification is not best. It is very negative. If there are a small amount of women who are turned on by that, that's fine! But let us not get confused with the idea that, it is all womens experience. The majority of women feel terrible when being objectified.
Let us not confuse what one person thinks of feminism, and what one person thinks is best for their gender, for what feminism is, or what's best for their gender. The two are incredibly subjective. Everyone has their own idea of feminism. In mine, saying "the majority of women ______" demeans us as individuals. Saying women don't or can't or shouldn't be strippers, or pornstars, or housewives, or mechanics, or pilots, or soccer moms, or florists, or sadists or masochists or have foot fetishes or rape fantasies, to me, in my own, individual feminist belief - as everyone's feminism is different - is just dragging us back into the stone age.
At the very least, feminists don't tell feminists how to be feminist. I mean, last I checked, telling a woman how to think as a woman, was pretty sexist.
xXmy shanghai sweetieXx
01-08-2010, 10:04 AM
^^^^^^
duh, i should be open tothe idea of rape, maybe if i man tries to rape me i should let him because its the PC thing to do and i should be open to his ideas!!! Silly me thats what feminism is about! being open to rape! im not going to argue with an idiot who thinks rape and feminism go hand in hand!
charlie61
01-08-2010, 10:39 AM
Gettin a li'l bit heated.
Let's try not to take things so personally??
xXmy shanghai sweetieXx
01-08-2010, 11:34 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1241582/British-woman-Dubai-arrested-having-sex-fianc-raped-hotel-waiter.html
i suppose you agree with this!!!!
Isis Star
01-08-2010, 05:57 PM
Isis: What do you think about the tipout that the dancers are suppose to pay the club employees (waitress,DJ,bartender,floor guys,housemom)?
I pay for a job well done, not according to gender. A DJ at a particular club I worked at just couldn't stand that I would pay him a couple bucks a night instead of the "mandatory" 10% of my earnings. I told him what I didn't want to dance to, I told him that when it's busy please play to the crowd but stay in the rock genre- and he would CONSISTENTLY play Chris Brown and Kanye West for me when he knew that I was boycotting C.B. and preferred rock music. He didn't do ANYTHING to contribue to me making money and he wasn't the one grinding cock in the champagne room, so I wouldn't give him a tenth of my earning- because he didn't deserve it.
Same goes with bouncers, waitresses, bartenders, housemom- if I treat them politely and let them know what I need from them in order to make money to give them a good tip, and they consistently after having multiple chances to do their job REFUSE to... then they don't get any money.
yay for long thought provoking threads.
Charlie- great point regarding everyone having feeling different about stripping. If you're new and love your job you'll have a much different opinion than if you've been working for years and are tired of the BS.
charlie61
01-08-2010, 06:34 PM
^ Totally agreed.
And, as Paris has said before, some girls show burnout symptoms within the first week of dancing, whereas others can dance 6 days a week for 5 years without burning out. This can massively change one's perspective on stripping (or in any job for that matter).
sxcbbw
01-08-2010, 11:27 PM
^^^^^^
duh, i should be open tothe idea of rape, maybe if i man tries to rape me i should let him because its the PC thing to do and i should be open to his ideas!!! Silly me thats what feminism is about! being open to rape! im not going to argue with an idiot who thinks rape and feminism go hand in hand!
Wow. Learn to read, much? ;D I mean I thought I'd phrased my points pretty well, apparently not.
Not condoning rape, for the second time.
Not saying all women are of the same sexual tastes, identity, or sexuality - which people here should know.
Yes saying women have rape fantasies - again, fantasies, do you know what that term means?
Here, have a link from a credible source http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brainstorm/200805/why-do-women-have-erotic-rape-fantasies
Or is this not a credible source, because the author is male? Are the studies not credible, because somewhere along the line, the results were processed by a male? Okay, let's have a medical study, by a woman called Jenny. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19085605 ;)
So here's hoping you can read this without leaping up and calling me a rapist sympathiser again, because I'm not. I'm just well aware that one person's feminism is another's sexism; one person's sexual fantasy is another's nightmare; and that none of those viewpoints are "wrong" until people start saying you "can't" be that kind of feminist, or "can't" think about whatever you want to in bed.
Same goes with bouncers, waitresses, bartenders, housemom- if I treat them politely and let them know what I need from them in order to make money to give them a good tip, and they consistently after having multiple chances to do their job REFUSE to... then they don't get any money.
Exactly. It's like waitresses in a restaurant - if you're going to give me shitty service, you're going home with no tips. If you work in the service industry, do it well if you want my money. I don't think it's unreasonable to prefer to keep your hard earned money for yourself, if these people aren't helping you earn it,or heaven forbid making it harder for you to make a living.
And, as Paris has said before, some girls show burnout symptoms within the first week of dancing, whereas others can dance 6 days a week for 5 years without burning out. This can massively change one's perspective on stripping (or in any job for that matter).
Everyone handles any job differently, I seriously envy those that can do this for twice as long as I can before feeling burnt out :cow:
xXmy shanghai sweetieXx
01-09-2010, 05:34 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Also I like how you pulled the old rape fantasy card. Because, if women fantasize about it, it makes it ok then, right? Nevermind that rape fantasies don't even exist, since the definition of rape is sex against ones will, and fantasies are completely on a womens own terms.
some people need to learn to read? some people certainly need to realise not everything tey read is true!! whether its got a study backing it up or not! how gulible are you?
you may not think you are condoning rape but by stating wome have fantasies about it then that is exactly what you are doing whether you realise it or not! Maybe we should promote rape fantasies so then more men can get away with rape with the whole 'she wanted it card?'.
anyone can create a study and bend the results their way to their ideas for every study arguing one idea there's going to be other arguing their study proves the result wrong.
I suppose you believe this aswell though i mean there are satistics and lots of information so it must be true, you can read it and its got study so its official accordng to you. and if you dont agree with it maybe you should learn to read!
http://www.abytheliberal.com/internationalism/are-americans-stupid-statistics-and-research-data
snowpea
01-12-2010, 02:57 PM
The concept seems to have gone right over her head...
At the end of the day feminism is about equality, and while we are a commodity which can be bought and sold for men...well it makes equality very difficult. The fact that article was written by a man has nothing to do with the inaccuracy of it. There are plenty of wonderful male feminists! Victor Malarek and Noam Chomsky to name a couple.
I think it's obvious the status quo is not working. Rape, sexual assault and violence towards women continues to rise, the sex industry is not healthy for women. This is a fact, it's not thinking in black and white. It's being practical and honest. At the end of the day, it's not about sexual fantasies. It's about sociology and economics.
I am so interested in feminisim because besides being a woman myself, I think woman are truly amazing and capable of accomplishing so much, if we are given the chance. I don't think patriarchal society is fair to us, I don't think the sex industry is fair to us, I think we deserve so much more. Most girls I know who retire from the sex industry retire with nothing...we still have a long way to go.
charlie61
01-12-2010, 03:01 PM
^ True, but are there any studies that have examined the correlation between the sex industry and violence against women? I think most people jump to those conclusions because they're intuitive...which doesn't make them true.
snowpea
01-12-2010, 03:04 PM
oh and also the point of "everyone has their own idea of feminism" is a very uninformed thing to say.
The definition of feminisim is - 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
It's not some weird, wild theory that is open to any interpretation.
snowpea
01-12-2010, 03:08 PM
^ True, but are there any studies that have examined the correlation between the sex industry and violence against women? I think most people jump to those conclusions because they're intuitive...which doesn't make them true.
There are many studies indeed! Plenty that are ongoing too, you can read about a few of them in The Johns...I have material that sources more done by various universities if you're interested.
charlie61
01-12-2010, 03:12 PM
^ Interesting. Do you have any online links?
I guess my only problem with that is...I think women should be able to make the choices they want to make in this world without fearing repercussions (within reason, of course...such as with stripping, which doesn't hurt anyone). So it doesn't really matter if strippers--> violence against women...as targeting the sex industry is like trying to treat the symptom and not the cause.
amaliasnightout
01-12-2010, 03:28 PM
oh and also the point of "everyone has their own idea of feminism" is a very uninformed thing to say.
The definition of feminisim is - 1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
It's not some weird, wild theory that is open to any interpretation.
It's not uninformed.
Do you realize how many different feminist theories there are? Yes, they all center around equality of the sexes, but if people didn't have their own individual views of feminism, we would still be first-wave feminists. It's constantly evolving to include the different subtypes, ideals and theories as society changes.
amaliasnightout
01-12-2010, 03:32 PM
snowpea-
I respect the different points of view everyone has contributed here, but I feel like you're talking out of your ass. You are the one who seems uniformed. Perhaps you should go read some feminist literature instead of googling what feminism means and relaying it here with no consideration to anyone's point of view but your own.
I've been an emotional wreck all day, and I puked when I read your whole argument about rape fantasies not existing. Oh boy. That's like psychology 101.
Allice
01-12-2010, 06:04 PM
My best friend has rape fantasies. She knows now that I don't want to hear details about them, as I find them very personally disturbing- but I still don't judge her for having them. I'll never understand, but I don't have to. It's her sex life, not mine.
NATURALLY, I know she doesn't actually WANT to be raped- which yes, by definition would change the nature of the act- but she does wants to pretend. She wants to act it out. I understand it as more of a control thing.
I also know that she means no disrespect to those who have survived such acts, just as I don't mean any disrespect to anyone who's been physically abused when I have rough sex.
Saying that we shouldn't be honest about those sexual thoughts, if we have them, strikes me as oppressive. Fantasy does not justify sexual abuse, and men (and women- yes, they abuse too!) know it.