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Hopper
01-01-2010, 08:43 PM
Nothing is that black and white when it comes to the way two human beings relate to each other BEM. What you do with your friends works for you and for them but there are different things that work for different people.

I have OTC friendships with a few ladies who dance or have danced and the experiences have all been unique. One lady asked me to stop doing dances with her, another asked me to stop coming to the club completely, still a third had no problem grinding on my lap, taking my money and meeting me for lunch on her day off...

I met a stripper who said she practised lapdancing on her IRL/OTC friends who came to the club, asking them what they liked her to do and what she did wrong etc.

Hopper
01-02-2010, 02:43 AM
Strip clubbing is like snow skiing. The longer you do it the better you get at it, both dancer and patron. One thing's for sure: If you want to ski the mountain, you have to buy a lift ticket. Every mountain offers a different experience/challenge. Some runs we like better than others. Some we ski over and over.

I liked it the first time I went to a SC. It's like an amusement park ride rather than a sport. No work or skill required, except knowing how to avoid annoying the strippers.

I don't expect SC visits to go smoothly. You can't expect it to be all smiles - the reality behind the fantasy is always there waiting to jump out at you. Strippers often can't help being their real selves, and their real selves do not enjoy dancing naked for strangers and being touched by them. That's why you pay them. I enjoy this seedy aspect of SCs as much as the fantasy aspect. Because I'm stuck with it.

FBR
01-02-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm pretty sure I will be entering into a new phase of clubbing in 2010. Haven't quite sorted it all out in my mind just yet but I believe it will be good :)

FBR

mcmillan
01-02-2010, 05:55 PM
I liked it the first time I went to a SC. It's like an amusement park ride rather than a sport. No work or skill required, except knowing how to avoid annoying the strippers.

I don't expect SC visits to go smoothly. You can't expect it to be all smiles - the reality behind the fantasy is always there waiting to jump out at you. Strippers often can't help being their real selves, and their real selves do not enjoy dancing naked for strangers and being touched by them. That's why you pay them. I enjoy this seedy aspect of SCs as much as the fantasy aspect. Because I'm stuck with it.

Wow, Hopper, that was brilliant. I'll certainly give you credit for being authentic. I think you've captured it.

I discovered topless joints when I was in high school. I've never out grown them. It used to be all about the T&A, and don't get me wrong, it's still largely about the T&A, but I can now better appreciate all the dynamics and psychology at play in a SC.

I once had a DJ tell me that everyone inside the SC, dancers, DJ's, waitresses, patrons, the whole lot were "misfits." Not bad or immoral, just folks that rarely fit-in normal corporate settings.

I'd love to hear some strippers respond your recent post. One of the things I find so appealing about this site is hearing others' view points, be they dancers or patrons. You've certainly given me pause to think about my motives. It's interesting to think about what my payoff is when I frequent a SC.

Hopper
01-02-2010, 08:27 PM
^What is there to think about?

In SCs strippers are catering to a male fantasy of how they would like women to behave. There is a big difference between that and how women like to behave. So the tension in SCs is unavoidable. Going against nature has consequences, even if you are paying money, and I am prepared to wear them. I go to SCs to see naked girls, not because I want to do the right thing.

Add to that all the things patrons do to annoy strippers, the way management and other staff treat them, and personal problems they bring in with them, which may even be the reason they strip, and the fact that a given stripper may just not like you.

Forget about trying to make it all nice.

mcmillan
01-02-2010, 09:21 PM
In normal society we have boundaries or "personal space" if you will. I can only stand so close to a woman in public before I'm encroaching in her "personal space." Or I can only stare at her or hold eye contact so long before I'm either making a pass at her or stalking her. But in SC the boundaries are very porous. We're encouraged to stare as they're flaunting their god given feminine form. They're laying their hands on us. The roles are reversed. Men become the prey as the woman stalk them for their dollars.

You're right they're selling sex-appeal, not sex.

In some regards the I have what you want (his money/security her feminine beauty/sex-appeal) is not that different than OTC, only packaged differently. To your point, what advice would a veteran stripper tell a novice about lap dancing? "Honey, imagine you were ovulating and needed to be impregnated at once. Well there's no time for courtship, candle lit dinners and wedding ceremonies. Go physically assault that absolute stranger with the most provocative foreplay possible, this side of pulling his dick out, for the duration of a four minute song. Do what you think would most entice him to want to fuck you, then collect his $20 pull on your top and find the next willing sheep in the heard."

Imagine if women behaved that way in polite society. Imagine being in nightclub and having a woman you found attractive approach you, sit at your table, remove her blouse, and grind on your lap. That's not all that different from what happens on college spring breaks. Typical boundaries give way to instinctual drives.

In SC's boundaries also give way to instinctual drives, hers for money/economic survival, his to feel the fresh taught flesh of a 20 year old woman without any commitment or guilt. Both base needs unveiled in their rawest transactional form.

mediocrity
01-02-2010, 09:21 PM
^What is there to think about?

In SCs strippers are catering to a male fantasy of how they would like women to behave. There is a big difference between that and how women like to behave. So the tension in SCs is unavoidable. Going against nature has consequences, even if you are paying money, and I am prepared to wear them. I go to SCs to see naked girls, not because I want to do the right thing.

Add to that all the things patrons do to annoy strippers, the way management and other staff treat them, and personal problems they bring in with them, which may even be the reason they strip, and the fact that a given stripper may just not like you.

Forget about trying to make it all nice.

Holy shit Hopper, call the press. I agree with you.

yoda57us
01-02-2010, 09:49 PM
Wow, Hopper, that was brilliant. I'll certainly give you credit for being authentic. I think you've captured it.

I discovered topless joints when I was in high school. I've never out grown them. It used to be all about the T&A, and don't get me wrong, it's still largely about the T&A, but I can now better appreciate all the dynamics and psychology at play in a SC.

I once had a DJ tell me that everyone inside the SC, dancers, DJ's, waitresses, patrons, the whole lot were "misfits." Not bad or immoral, just folks that rarely fit-in normal corporate settings.

I'd love to hear some strippers respond your recent post. One of the things I find so appealing about this site is hearing others' view points, be they dancers or patrons. You've certainly given me pause to think about my motives. It's interesting to think about what my payoff is when I frequent a SC.


In normal society we have boundaries or "personal space" if you will. I can only stand so close to a woman in public before I'm encroaching in her "personal space." Or I can only stare at her or hold eye contact so long before I'm either making a pass at her or stalking her. But in SC the boundaries are very porous. We're encouraged to stare as they're flaunting their god given feminine form. They're laying their hands on us. The roles are reversed. Men become the prey as the woman stalk them for their dollars.

You're right they're selling sex-appeal, not sex.

In some regards the I have what you want (his money/security her feminine beauty/sex-appeal) is not that different than OTC, only packaged differently. To your point, what advice would a veteran stripper tell a novice about lap dancing? "Honey, imagine you were ovulating and needed to be impregnated at once. Well there's no time for courtship, candle lit dinners and wedding ceremonies. Go physically assault that absolute stranger with the most provocative foreplay possible, this side of pulling his dick out, for the duration of a four minute song. Do what you think would most entice him to want to fuck you, then collect his $20 pull on your top and find the next willing sheep in the heard."

Imagine if women behaved that way in polite society. Imagine being in nightclub and having a woman you found attractive approach you, sit at your table, remove her blouse, and grind on your lap. That's not all that different from what happens on college spring breaks. Typical boundaries give way to instinctual drives.

In SC's boundaries also give way to instinctual drives, hers for money/economic survival, his to feel the fresh taught flesh of a 20 year old woman without any commitment or guilt. Both base needs unveiled in their rawest transactional form.

It's just T&A, calm down a little....

mcmillan
01-02-2010, 10:03 PM
It's just T&A, calm down a little....

Touche! That was priceless. I loved it. "It's just T&A..." Whew, I can step back from the edge of the ledge and get some sleep tonight.

When next I'm at the SC I can jettison my worries about "sentimental attachments", sit back, relax, pays my money and say to the talent, "Oh my, you must be the bitch goddess of T&A. Takes my money, feeds me some flesh and let's let the good times roll!"

yoda57us
01-02-2010, 11:27 PM
When next I'm at the SC I can jettison my worries about "sentimental attachments", sit back, relax, pays my money and say to the talent, "Oh my, you must be the bitch goddess of T&A. Takes my money, feeds me some flesh and let's let the good times roll!"

You really do love to over think this stuff....

Hopper
01-02-2010, 11:56 PM
Holy shit Hopper, call the press. I agree with you.

I don't think this counts because it is common sense and common knowledge. Though perhaps not widely realised.

Hopper
01-02-2010, 11:59 PM
In normal society we have boundaries...

All good points but my main point was that SCs are bad, and bad has consequences. You have to take them as they are.

SteveSmith
01-03-2010, 11:48 AM
I'm skeptical of any guy who says he cares about a stripper as a person - you go to SCs to pay to touch a girl's body. What else is there to it?


I don't disagree with Hopper here. I think it requires a lot of skill at compartmentalizing things to say you really care about a stripper as a person and yet still buy dances from her. Ditto for a dancer selling dances to a customer/friend. Once sentimentality gets involved and lines get blurred, things gets dicey.

I've really cared about a certain dancer and still got dances from her. I knew this dancer for about a year and a half, but I started to care about her after about 8 months of knowing her. I didn't tell her I cared about her, I kept it to myself. I don't get dances from dancers with the intent of groping them innappropriately or touching them where I'm not suppose to.

I think that customers who have crushes on dancers or become infatuated with them must care about them at some level. There are different levels of caring so it won't be the same as a family member or someone they've known all their life. You can care about a dancer and like her and still get dances from her.

Example: If I've known a dancer for a year and she says she's got a flat tire and asks me if I'd change it for her, I wouldn't say, "Fuck you, you're just an object to me."

I'm not a sociopath and I can empathize with people, so I'd change the tire.

People who are in love, married, or are a couple IRL, can grope, fight, abuse, etc., each other and still love and care about each other.

I care about certain people IRL that I hardly know. In my business, if I know my customer is a struggling single mom or senior citizen, I'll give them a break on the price or I'll go the extra mile for them to give them a better deal.

See, people can care about other people, it's not unheard of. :)

lopaw
01-03-2010, 08:49 PM
You really do love to over think this stuff....


Yeah - why do people do that? When you start over-analyzing & hand wringing over all of the possible emotional & intellectual ramifications at (of all places) a SC, you've effectively defeated the whole purpose of why you are there - to ogle hot women & have some expensive FUN, dammit! ;D

yoda57us
01-03-2010, 09:38 PM
Yeah - why do people do that? When you start over-analyzing & hand wringing over all of the possible emotional & intellectual ramifications at (of all places) a SC, you've effectively defeated the whole purpose of why you are there - to ogle hot women & have some expensive FUN, dammit! ;D


Most of the time it's to try and rationalize foolish behavior...

Back in the dark ages when I used to fall in love with strippers every other month I would constantly over-analyze everything that went on in the club in order to justify spending ridiculous amounts of money trying to buy something that was not for sale. As soon as I figured out what was real and what was not ITC I stopped over spending and over analyzing and started just having a good time.

I'm just glad I figured it all out before I discovered the $20 full contact lap dance or I'd probably be sleeping in a cardboard box right now...

mcmillan
01-03-2010, 09:52 PM
All I can offer is that the more you understand some spectator sport be it NFL secondary coverages, ballet dancing, NASCAR, prairie ecosystems, or whatever, the more you can appreciate what your watching.

I'm no connoisseur, but beyond their natural feminine shape, I take note of their outfits, dancing ability, makeup, boob jobs, poise/confidence as the stroll through the club, their hustle/BS as they peddle their wares. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

If I'm in a SC for the first time and don't know a soul, I don't over analyze it. I just enjoy the T&A. But having frequented one in particular, which happens to be on my way home from work, I've gotten to know the staff, dancers, bouncers, DJ's and waitresses. I appreciate what they're doing in a way I wouldn't had I not gotten to know the business better.

Maybe the message here is I need to cool my jets and find another watering hole. I will say being a regular has its merits. The dancing/contact is far more intimate/physical than being a new face in a new SC.

yoda57us
01-03-2010, 11:04 PM
Maybe the message here is I need to cool my jets and find another watering hole. I will say being a regular has its merits. The dancing/contact is far more intimate/physical than being a new face in a new SC.

I rather like being a regular-both of certain dancers and of certain clubs. Being hooked on just one dancer, or just one club is probably not a good idea. It's all about perspective.

bem401
01-04-2010, 08:00 AM
Nothing is that black and white when it comes to the way two human beings relate to each other BEM. What you do with your friends works for you and for them but there are different things that work for different people.

True, but he introduced the term "sentimental attachment", which apparently has different meanings to different people. To me, sentimental attachments make it difficult to continue the dancer/customer relationship. I think long-term ITC relationships require a certain degree of detachment on both sides to endure.

yoda57us
01-04-2010, 09:25 AM
True, but he introduced the term "sentimental attachment", which apparently has different meanings to different people. To me, sentimental attachments make it difficult to continue the dancer/customer relationship. I think long-term ITC relationships require a certain degree of detachment on both sides to endure.

I think I would use the word acceptance rather than detachment BEM. But again, that's me. Different strokes for different folks.

I would agree that the word "sentimental" can be a bit ambiguous as well...

bem401
01-04-2010, 09:57 AM
I think I would use the word acceptance rather than detachment BEM. But again, that's me. Different strokes for different folks.


Well if the prevailing attitude is "she has her role, I have mine, let's just accept it" , I'd observe that that's a pretty good spin on detachment.

mcmillan
01-04-2010, 11:46 AM
By "sentimental attachment" I was simply trying to describe we enjoy friendship type chemistry/conversation I don't have with other strippers. Is that her job to convince her clients they share some good chemistry? Sure it is, but over time "acts" wear thin whereas a "vibe" doesn't. If she quits working I'll miss seeing her, not because I'll miss her T&A, but just her vibe and our banter. We don't have any OTC contact.

bem401
01-04-2010, 12:03 PM
By "sentimental attachment" I was simply trying to describe we enjoy friendship type chemistry/conversation I don't have with other strippers. Is that her job to convince her clients they share some good chemistry? Sure it is, but over time "acts" wear thin whereas a "vibe" doesn't. If she quits working I'll miss seeing her, not because I'll miss her T&A, but just her vibe and our banter. We don't have any OTC contact.


What you are describing is an attraction to or infatuation with a favorite dancer. We get that now. We've all been there. I see a sentimental attachment as being something different which doesn't necessarily have much or anything to do with what goes on in the club. In fact, it becomes an impediment to engaging in club activities with the person you have that attachment to.

But as Yoda said, different strokes for different folks. I think we'd all agree you should do whatever you (or her) are comfortable with until you (or her) are no longer comfortable with it.

mcmillan
01-04-2010, 12:05 PM
By "sentimental attachment" I was simply trying to describe we enjoy friendship type chemistry/conversation I don't have with other strippers. Is that her job to convince her clients they share some good chemistry? Sure it is, but over time "acts" wear thin whereas a "vibe" doesn't. If she quits working I'll miss seeing her, not because I'll miss her T&A, but just her vibe and our banter. We don't have any OTC contact.

Well truth be told I'll miss the T&A also, that's far easier to replace than a personality.

mcmillan
01-04-2010, 12:22 PM
What you are describing is an attraction to or infatuation with a favorite dancer. We get that now. We've all been there. I see a sentimental attachment as being something different which doesn't necessarily have much or anything to do with what goes on in the club. In fact, it becomes an impediment to engaging in club activities with the person you have that attachment to.

But as Yoda said, different strokes for different folks. I think we'd all agree you should do whatever you (or her) are comfortable with until you (or her) are no longer comfortable with it.

Great point, maybe that's why I started this thread. There's an incongruity between friendship and fondling. I use to buy successive dances and tip well because I was getting great service. The friendship part evolved organically. Now I'm as inclined to buy dances & tip almost like a sugar daddy as I am for a nookie fix. That was hard write. I appreciate the feedback.

I need to check my motives and remember the fundementals of strip clubbing. Nice to have friends, but we pay to play.

yoda57us
01-04-2010, 01:00 PM
Well if the prevailing attitude is "she has her role, I have mine, let's just accept it" , I'd observe that that's a pretty good spin on detachment.


Except that is not what I meant BEM. It has nothing to do with "roles". Lol, I think it's fairly obvious that we agree on little when it comes to interpersonal relationships so maybe it's better if you just call it what you want and not try to make it the same thing as what I'm calling it since I doubt that it is.

bem401
01-04-2010, 01:04 PM
Except that is not what I meant BEM. It has nothing to do with "roles". Lol, I think it's fairly obvious that we agree on little when it comes to interpersonal relationships so maybe it's better if you just call it what you want and not try to make it the same thing as what I'm calling it since I doubt that it is.

Well, if I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "acceptance", maybe you'll enlighten me?

yoda57us
01-04-2010, 08:15 PM
Well, if I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "acceptance", maybe you'll enlighten me?

Well, for starters, I can't use the words friendship and detachment in the same sentence. Friendship and acceptance, on the other hand, go together quite well.

WiseGuy_TX
01-05-2010, 05:10 AM
By "sentimental attachment" I was simply trying to describe we enjoy friendship type chemistry/conversation I don't have with other strippers. Is that her job to convince her clients they share some good chemistry? Sure it is, but over time "acts" wear thin whereas a "vibe" doesn't. If she quits working I'll miss seeing her, not because I'll miss her T&A, but just her vibe and our banter. We don't have any OTC contact....it means you are not emotionally or intellectually dead. You are not driven by a pair of blue balls to treat dancers as a faceless objects. You have the ability to make choices to enjoy the relationship or T&A or both. As long as you understand the relationship boundaries, things are good. But if the boundaries become confused, such as your current need to step back, you can do it. You grew up and became an adult. Nothing wrong with that.

Hopper
01-05-2010, 05:45 AM
Of course one is likely to meet strippers who he forms sentimental attachments to, as with girls IRL. Some strippers are nice enough and behave themselves enough to make that possible. I have met strippers I could be sentimental about and even care about. However the most LDs I've had with one girl was three, and only a few. Even two LDs is unusual. So I never had time to form any kind of attachment. But even meeting them once is enough to make me think about some of them later on and feel somthing for them - I don't need to be their "regular" for a few months for that to happen. That's normal for when you meet a girl you like.

I think the issue here is that such an attachment is pointless since in the club you can't have any kind of relationship with the girl and you will not see her outside the club either. It's natural to feel it, but it's going nowhere. Again, the unnatural situation created in SCs - you can't stop yourself from having feelings, but it's just a show for business's sake, an artificial substitute.

So what you really should be asking is why you spend so much time in SCs in the first place. For older guys it's because they are past the age where they can have relations with young women. The irony here is that the opportunity SCs create for them leads to frustration, since it only provides part of the equation - the physical part. It's not a full substitute.

I don't go to SCs for companionship and I don't go often enough to get to know any strippers well enough that sentiment or caring becomes an issue. I go only to see and touch and for other fun aspects of SCs.

WiseGuy_TX
01-05-2010, 07:06 AM
...Hopper since you admittedly have never taken the time to know a dancer beyond a few dances and just want to see and touch them, what was your longest commitment with a girlfriend/woman, ...a few months, a year, 5 years or more???

bem401
01-05-2010, 07:28 AM
Well, for starters, I can't use the words friendship and detachment in the same sentence. Friendship and acceptance, on the other hand, go together quite well.

Friendship and acceptance go together, absolutely. I never said they didn't. The point I was making is that friendship and doing dances cannot endure without a certain amount of detachment. And by enduring, Hopper, I'm talking about several months or years, not a few visits.

Its the difference between having a stripper you're friendly with and a friend who strips. I'm just arguing that when she becomes more of the latter than the former, its difficult to remain detached enough to continue paying her to get naked and grind on you. At least it is for me.

And I thought we were trying to avoid turning this into another friends thread!

mcmillan
01-05-2010, 09:47 AM
Friendship and acceptance go together, absolutely. I never said they didn't. The point I was making is that friendship and doing dances cannot endure without a certain amount of detachment. And by enduring, Hopper, I'm talking about several months or years, not a few visits.

Its the difference between having a stripper you're friendly with and a friend who strips. I'm just arguing that when she becomes more of the latter than the former, its difficult to remain detached enough to continue paying her to get naked and grind on you. At least it is for me.

And I thought we were trying to avoid turning this into another friends thread!

That nails it for me. I'm friendly with a stripper. I don't have a friend that I pay to ogle and fondle.

There was a gal I knew in AA, where anonymity is valued, who acknowledge she was a stripper. I finally walked into SC and there she was on stage. When she got off stage she returned to her company, possibly a regular, on the far side of the club. It was awkward. That was several years ago and I recently saw her at an AA mtg. we never discussed her work, but I would loved to hear about that portion of her career.

yoda57us
01-05-2010, 10:07 AM
Friendship and acceptance go together, absolutely. I never said they didn't. The point I was making is that friendship and doing dances cannot endure without a certain amount of detachment.


Which brings us right back to square one BEM. You do what works for you, I do what works for me and everyone else does the same. My experiences are somewhat different that yours. That's all.

KS_Stevia
01-05-2010, 11:23 AM
I met a stripper who said she practised lapdancing on her IRL/OTC friends who came to the club, asking them what they liked her to do and what she did wrong etc.

I did that when I first started dancing, with a couple of college friends. They also gave me honest stage critique. Then I stopped inviting people I knew to the club, after I started getting so busy, that they would just get ignored, and that wasn't cool.

Hopper
01-06-2010, 01:19 AM
...Hopper since you admittedly have never taken the time to know a dancer beyond a few dances and just want to see and touch them, what was your longest commitment with a girlfriend/woman, ...a few months, a year, 5 years or more???

Pretty ironic that you associate SCs with commitment if you think about it.

My whole point is that strippers are not the same as girlfriends or even one-night-stands or anything in-between. There is no point in getting to know a stripper, since it is going to go no further than looking and touching and friendly chat. You can conduct a long-term business relationship with them or perhaps become friends (but only in the club), but that's not the same as a relationship with a girlfriend and there is no sex.

I was not saying that I don't want commitment to any girl - I was talking only about strippers. It's not that I only want to see and touch strippers, it's that I can't realistically do anything else with them. All SCs are are places to see and touch naked girls. How I relate to strippers bears no relation to how I relate to girls IRL. That's the difference between ITC and IRL.

I've met strippers who I would like to go back for regularly over a long period of time and have long LDs with. I have to like a girl a lot to pay an exhorbitant sum just to touch her, so I could keep on doing it for months. But that is unrealistic, an injury to my ego and a sexual and emotional dead end. Outside the club there are loads of attractive girls and in my experience of clubs the proportion is greater. The time and money is better spent on pursuing that avenue.

Phil-W
01-06-2010, 04:26 AM
It's not that I only want to see and touch strippers, it's that I can't realistically do anything else with them. All SCs are are places to see and touch naked girls. How I relate to strippers bears no relation to how I relate to girls IRL. That's the difference between ITC and IRL.

Firstly, a few (a very few?) dancer/customer relationships to end up transferring OTC. It's not common, but it's not impossible either.

Secondly, your ITC relationship depends on how you treat the dancer. Nothing will convince me that the great majority of dancers like being touched, having highly personal comments made about their figures, grinding hard on customers, etc).

(I can accept that some dancers have strong exhibitionistic streaks and may enjoy showing off their figures in the right circumstances).

If you are paying to touch, if you're telling the dancer she's got a great p*ssy, if she's grinding heavily on you, you have - - automatically ruled out any relationship other than a commercial one with a dancer.

If you're being respectful, only want air dances, etc, then other options are open. I'm not saying it will lead to any form of OTC contact, only that the possibility is no longer totally ruled out.....

Phil.

Hopper
01-06-2010, 05:31 AM
Firstly, a few (a very few?) dancer/customer relationships to end up transferring OTC. It's not common, but it's not impossible either.

Okay a stripper might want to go out with me or we might become friends outside the club but we are talking about what conventionally happens inside the club.


Secondly, your ITC relationship depends on how you treat the dancer. Nothing will convince me that the great majority of dancers like being touched, having highly personal comments made about their figures, grinding hard on customers, etc).

I was talking about high contact clubs, not extras or sexual assaults. I don't know how "personal comments" came up, but I don't make deliberately offensive comments. I expect that what is appropriate when a stripper giving you a contact LD is different to what is appropriate when meeting a girl IRL. I expect it's alright to make some comments about her body under those circumstances. Strippers often comment about their own bodies, especially in LDs.



(I can accept that some dancers have strong exhibitionistic streaks and may enjoy showing off their figures in the right circumstances).


I don't get it - all strippers show off their bodies whether they are exhibitionists or not.



If you are paying to touch, if you're telling the dancer she's got a great p*ssy, if she's grinding heavily on you, you have - - automatically ruled out any relationship other than a commercial one with a dancer.


Paying to touch what - her pussy? No, that is off-limits even in contact clubs and I don't ask for extras. Nor do I comment on her pussy - that's just low. Some strippers grind (though I wouldn't say heavily) but I don't ask them to.

So I don't know how I have ruled out any relationship with a dancer, since I am just getting what I paid for and haven't crossed any lines. Unless you are saying that just touching her even in the permitted areas cancels any possibility of OTC relations in the stripper's mind. I don't see why that would be a universal rule.


If you're being respectful, only want air dances, etc, then other options are open. I'm not saying it will lead to any form of OTC contact, only that the possibility is no longer totally ruled out.....

All the clubs in my town are contact and I am as respectful to strippers as I am to girls IRL, except what is respectful ITC is in some ways different to what is respectful IRL given the different circumstances. My own comments wouldn't be any more personal or sleazy than those the strippers themselves make. I pretty much treat them as I would any girl IRL.

I don't think I follow what you are saying. I don't know what gave you the impression that I go to SCs for extras or to sleaze it up. When I said I relate to strippers differently to how I relate to girls IRL, I only meant that ITC it is business (i.e. physical only) and IRL it is personal. I don't say that there is no personal interaction with strippers, but it is not a romantic interaction. In one, I am paying for intimacy, and the intimacy is only physical. In the other, there is mutual attraction and affection.

Why is nobody getting this?

Maybe a stripper will like me, maybe she will go out with me, but I don't go into a SC expecting anything except what I pay for - T&A. If I go enough times I might become friends with some strippers or have a long, cosy stripper-customer business relationship with some of them, but I don't need to go to a SC to make friends and a platonic relationship with a hot girl who regularly dances naked on my lap is more frustrating than the relationship would be worth.

Which is what I think is the whole problem with the OP.

WiseGuy_TX
01-06-2010, 06:07 AM
Pretty ironic that you associate SCs with commitment if you think about it.

My whole point is that strippers are not the same as girlfriends or even one-night-stands or anything in-between. There is no point in getting to know a stripper, since it is going to go no further than looking and touching and friendly chat. You can conduct a long-term business relationship with them or perhaps become friends (but only in the club), but that's not the same as a relationship with a girlfriend and there is no sex.

I was not saying that I don't want commitment to any girl - I was talking only about strippers. It's not that I only want to see and touch strippers, it's that I can't realistically do anything else with them. All SCs are are places to see and touch naked girls. How I relate to strippers bears no relation to how I relate to girls IRL. That's the difference between ITC and IRL.

I've met strippers who I would like to go back for regularly over a long period of time and have long LDs with. I have to like a girl a lot to pay an exhorbitant sum just to touch her, so I could keep on doing it for months. But that is unrealistic, an injury to my ego and a sexual and emotional dead end. Outside the club there are loads of attractive girls and in my experience of clubs the proportion is greater. The time and money is better spent on pursuing that avenue....now Hopper, its a simple question that went unanswered. Let me ask again, what was your longest commitment with a girlfriend/woman, ...never, a few days, a few months, a year, a few years, 5 years or more???

Hopper
01-06-2010, 06:17 AM
...now Hopper, its a simple question that went unanswered. Let me ask again, what was your longest commitment with a girlfriend/woman, ...never, a few days, a few months, a year or two, 5 years or more???

That's nothing to do with the topic and I don't talk about my personal life on the internet - not those kind of details. Why are you asking?

KS_Stevia
01-06-2010, 10:07 AM
Hopper, I totally get it, and believe you are being very realistic.

Seems that this board has a high proportion of male members who go into long emotional pseudo-relationships with one girl ATF over time, or a small number of girls.

You are getting out of the SC what its meant for, kind of the custy equivalent of me as a dancer. Although I did have some regulars over the years, I never had ones that brought me teddy bears and diamond bracelets, know what I mean? Their experience was still great, and my income was solid (I had one LT regular that brought me gifts all the time, but we didn't meet at the club, it was more of an escort thing).

Its just like all the threads about regulars, and custies not understanding why we wouldn't completely rely on building regulars for our income. Well, its a gamble, and not as consistent an earnings as, say, a regular customer to a CPA. Same with you customers, right? A regular stripper may offer diminishing returns; ie, you find something newer and shinier, her contact levels drop, she becomes flaky and doesn't show when you come to see her, she drops her fantasy personae and you don't care for what's underneath. Then she starts talking about her utilities getting shut off, or not being able to afford food for her kid, etc. OTOH, things could get even better, more contact, lots of fun, etc...but a custy doesn't really need to establish a pseudo-relationship with a dancer to get more contact, he just needs to come back and spend more money.

I am 100% in agreement with you Hopper, and unsure why the other's do not get where you are coming from? Perhaps they are using the SC to fill their emotional void, whereas you have an outgoing social life and an emotionally satisfying personal life (be it in a marriage, or just with friends and family)

Am I making sense here? Edit to add, I am not asking you to extrapolate upon your personal life, as you've already made your boundaries clear (although my curiosity is still itchin to find out what area you are in ;) ), but all love here.

bem401
01-06-2010, 10:14 AM
So I don't know how I have ruled out any relationship with a dancer, since I am just getting what I paid for and haven't crossed any lines. Unless you are saying that just touching her even in the permitted areas cancels any possibility of OTC relations in the stripper's mind. I don't see why that would be a universal rule.

There are no universal rules. That would mean that the rules apply to every dancer and every customer in every situation.

As far as crossing any lines that preclude any relationship or friendship based on you being a customer is concerned, you don't get to make that determination. Its entirely the dancer's call. The thing you may have to accept is that no matter how well and respectfully you might think you are treating her as a customer, in her mind, you're still treating her like a stripper. Some girls will have no problem with that, others will.

KS_Stevia
01-06-2010, 10:19 AM
There are no universal rules. That would mean that the rules apply to every dancer and every customer in every situation.

As far as crossing any lines that preclude any relationship or friendship based on you being a customer is concerned, you don't get to make that determination. Its entirely the dancer's call. The thing you may have to accept is that no matter how well and respectfully you might think you are treating her as a customer, in her mind, you're still treating her like a stripper. Some girls will have no problem with that, others will.

I just don't get this. I've given lapdances for my friends, even hooked up sexually with guys I'm friends with. And some of my customers have become my friends too..as much as any man can be friends with a woman he is attracted to.

I guess I'm just a very overtly sexual person, who doesn't place much emotion into sexual acts, or even "sensual" acts like lapdances. If I was dancing right now, and any one of my male friends wanted to come in and get a dance, I would give it them, and I would charge.....at the club. However, if we were drinking at a party, having fun, and I did some kind of silly lapdance, where I show off some of my flipping tricks, and its in good fun..then of course I wouldn't charge.

Do you spend a lot of social time with your dancer "friends" and their group of friends Bem?

Personally, Bem, I just think your "friends" don't ask you for dances because they know you're not going to spend, and they are wasting their time, but you are safe for food, drinks, and club gossip when the place is dead.

Believe me, if ANY non-spending club regular asked me for a dance, I'd fucking do. But I know they don't spend, so I (along with any other stripper w half a brain) don't bother asking, we don't need uncessary rejection.

Phil-W
01-06-2010, 10:32 AM
I don't know how "personal comments" came up, but I don't make deliberately offensive comments. I expect that what is appropriate when a stripper giving you a contact LD is different to what is appropriate when meeting a girl IRL. I expect it's alright to make some comments about her body under those circumstances. Strippers often comment about their own bodies, especially in LDs.

The general point I was making, was that although dancers may expect (and not be particularly offended by) comments about their bodies during a LD, it doesn't follow that they particularly like it. You're one of a hundred guys who might make comments in a week, and as a dancer once commented to me: "that soon gets old".

As to commenting on their own bodies, the phrase "sales tool" does come to mind.


I don't get it - all strippers show off their bodies whether they are exhibitionists or not.

Yes, its a job. But there are some circumstances when the dancer is well within comfort zone that they they might enjoy dancing as well as earning. Doesn't happen often, I'll grant you, but it does happen.


So I don't know how I have ruled out any relationship with a dancer, since I am just getting what I paid for and haven't crossed any lines. Unless you are saying that just touching her even in the permitted areas cancels any possibility of OTC relations in the stripper's mind. I don't see why that would be a universal rule.

From my conversations with dancers (particularly when giving them a lift home - when they've got no reason to BS) the more contact you have with a dancer, the more grinding they do on you, the more they switch off from regarding you as a person, and the more firmly they put you in the "customer/forget about when leave work" mental pigeonhole.


All the clubs in my town are contact and I am as respectful to strippers as I am to girls IRL, except what is respectful ITC is in some ways different to what is respectful IRL given the different circumstances.

That's a contradiction in terms. You're saying you apply a different standard of courtesy to someone because she dances. Your different standard ITC might not be the dancer's definition of respectful.

Have you ever considered that a dancer's definition of respectful (even in a high contact club) might be having dances and not wanting contact?


I don't say that there is no personal interaction with strippers, but it is not a romantic interaction. In one, I am paying for intimacy, and the intimacy is only physical.

Why is nobody getting this?

You don't have a personal interaction with dancers in a SC, you have a professional one. Similarly you are not paying for intimacy, you are paying for physical contact. There is a huge difference.

Phil.

Phil-W
01-06-2010, 10:50 AM
I am 100% in agreement with you Hopper, and unsure why the other's do not get where you are coming from? Perhaps they are using the SC to fill their emotional void, whereas you have an outgoing social life and an emotionally satisfying personal life (be it in a marriage, or just with friends and family)

I think the underlying point was that Hopper was saying "why can't I be friends with a dancer", and the general tenor of the response was high contact levels, etc, increasingly make the relationship a professional, not a personal one.


My whole point is that strippers are not the same as girlfriends or even one-night-stands or anything in-between. There is no point in getting to know a stripper, since it is going to go no further than looking and touching and friendly chat. You can conduct a long-term business relationship with them or perhaps become friends (but only in the club), but that's not the same as a relationship with a girlfriend and there is no sex.

And to KS_Stevia: No problem with the above at all - as you say, its a totally realistic standpoint. The only point I was trying to make is that the nature of the interaction you have with a dancer colors her attitude to you. The general comments I have got from the dancers I know is that the more that a person wants from them in a dance in the way of contact, etc, (even though it might be totally within the rules of the club) the more they regard them as a customer, and the more they push any feelings they might have for them into the background.

Phil.

KS_Stevia
01-06-2010, 10:55 AM
The general point I was making, was that although dancers may expect (and not be particularly offended by) comments about their bodies during a LD, it doesn't follow that they particularly like it. You're one of a hundred guys who might make comments in a week, and as a dancer once commented to me: "that soon gets old".

As to commenting on their own bodies, the phrase "sales tool" does come to mind.



Yes, its a job. But there are some circumstances when the dancer is well within comfort zone that they they might enjoy dancing as well as earning. Doesn't happen often, I'll grant you, but it does happen.



From my conversations with dancers (particularly when giving them a lift home - when they've got no reason to BS) the more contact you have with a dancer, the more grinding they do on you, the more they switch off from regarding you as a person, and the more firmly they put you in the "customer/forget about when leave work" mental pigeonhole.



That's a contradiction in terms. You're saying you apply a different standard of courtesy to someone because she dances. Your different standard ITC might not be the dancer's definition of respectful.

Have you ever considered that a dancer's definition of respectful (even in a high contact club) might be having dances and not wanting contact?



You don't have a personal interaction with dancers in a SC, you have a professional one. Similarly you are not paying for intimacy, you are paying for physical contact. There is a huge difference.

Phil.

1. Complimenting us on our bodies is fine, its not offensive as long as the compliment isn't a passive-aggressive dig in disguise. It does get ignored, but its not offensive. We know it is the nature of an aroused man to compliment the woman that is arousing him. It means we are doing a good job, not disrespect.

2. Many of us enjoy dancing and earning on a regular basis, but it has nothing to do with the man underneath us. Check out the "Solosexuals" thread in General.

3. More contact and more grinding does NOT create the impersonal switch off if the dancer is already attracted to, and likes, the customer. We can pretty much tell if we want to date or bed a customer the moment we see him. And it can be confirmed, or unconfirmed, by a few minutes of chat. Doesn't mean that we will waste time or turn away easy money to dance for a guy we are attracted to. It just means he'll get a real phone number after, not a stripper email. And the amount of contact and grinding just depends on what's expected in the particular club.

If I meet a man I am attracted to in my contact club, I'm not going to expect him to only want an air dance just because I like him.

4. Respectful: if we dance at a contact club, its not mentally good to think of contact as "disrespectful". Then I'd spend each and every night feeling bad about myself, because if contact is the norm, then its going to happen. Respectful is not going BEYOND contact boundaries, not being rude or insulting to the dancers, not wasting her time, and not harassing her for personal information that she does not want to share (including contact info).

There, that about covers it. Cheers. 8)

bem401
01-06-2010, 10:59 AM
Do you spend a lot of social time with your dancer "friends" and their group of friends Bem?

KS, this thread has nothing to do with me. I'm just weighing in on the issues and responding to what others say. I don't understand why you want to drag my personal experiences into a thread where I've not mentioned them.

As to your question, I don't know what you mean by "a lot". I can say that there are several girls I've socialized with outside the club (usually in groups, mind you) anywhere from a couple of times a year to more frequently. In the cases of a handful of girls, I've been to their homes and met their family and friends. In all of these cases though, there was always some connection we had besides the club. None of those relationships happened overnight either. Keep in mind, I'm talking about girls I've known for 5 years or more, not 5 weeks.




Personally, Bem, I just think your "friends" don't ask you for dances because they know you're not going to spend, and they are wasting their time, but you are safe for food, drinks, and club gossip when the place is dead.

I won't argue for a minute that there aren't some girls who feel this way, but they are not really the ones I'm thinking of when I say "friends". About half of the girls on my list of girls with whom dances are off-limits put themselves on the list.

bem401
01-06-2010, 11:30 AM
For the record, I can't disagree with a single thing Phil W has written in the last several posts.

Phil-W
01-06-2010, 12:22 PM
KS_Stevia

We are the product of our experiences, and we all deal with different situations in our own different ways. I fully acknowledge that not all dancers are alike and they can and will react very differently to stripping...

And before going on, I'll state the obvious. I'm not a dancer, so I can only comment at second hand - based on discussion with a few dancers OTC and rather more ITC.


1. Complimenting us on our bodies is fine...iWe know it is the nature of an aroused man to compliment the woman that is arousing him. It means we are doing a good job, not disrespect.

The comment I have heard is that individual compliments are fine - its the constant accumulation of comments from customer after customer - each of which thinks they are saying something new and original - that irks many dancers.


2. Many of us enjoy dancing and earning on a regular basis, but it has nothing to do with the man underneath us. Check out the "Solosexuals" thread in General.

Hence my comment about "exhibistionistic" dancers in my earlier post. I think pretty well all dancers find a customer they enjoy dancing for from time to time. The question is of frequency of enjoyment.

And over the years (particularly when giving dancers lifts home) I've heard a lot of comment on the subject. The impression I'd get is that instances when the dance is 'work' significantly outweigh the differences when the dance is 'fun'.


3. More contact and more grinding does NOT create the impersonal switch off if the dancer is already attracted to, and likes, the customer. We can pretty much tell if we want to date or bed a customer the moment we see him. And it can be confirmed, or unconfirmed, by a few minutes of chat. Doesn't mean that we will waste time or turn away easy money to dance for a guy we are attracted to. It just means he'll get a real phone number after, not a stripper email. And the amount of contact and grinding just depends on what's expected in the particular club.

Again, over the years, my experience has been that merely being in a SC as a customer is a turn off for most girls. As one dancer in the UK famously commented some years ago, "the motivations that bring a guy into a strip club are motivations that give me a good reason not to want to see him outside of it".


If I meet a man I am attracted to in my contact club, I'm not going to expect him to only want an air dance just because I like him.

Again, my experience has been if dancers of doing an air dance or a contact dance, they'll opt for the air dance. Again, I fully acknowledge that in a contact club, you may not get the option.


4. Respectful: if we dance at a contact club, its not mentally good to think of contact as "disrespectful". Then I'd spend each and every night feeling bad about myself, because if contact is the norm, then its going to happen. Respectful is not going BEYOND contact boundaries, not being rude or insulting to the dancers, not wasting her time, and not harassing her for personal information that she does not want to share (including contact info).

The key here is how dancers deal with contact. You have your way of dealing with it - other dancers may use a different strategy. Two dancers I know well OTC essentially deal with it by mentally blanking the customers out during the dance.

--------------------------

And some philosophical comments here. My personal standard is that anything is OK as long as it doesn't bring hurt or harm to yourself or other people. Accordingly, I have no problem with dancers who offer higher contact levels. If I met you in the club, you'd be treated no differently from a dancer who did just air dances.

If anything in my above comments comes across as even faintly critical of you - trust me, that's not my intent. I'm just trying to explain my POV....

But this conversation is about not how individual dancers react to a specific set of circumstances, but what a typical response is. And my impression is, , dancers would prefer to do air rather than contact dances, have customers not make personal comments, etc.

(I'm not fool enough to think that's anything but a Utopian situation, given that most customers want contact, like making 'dirty talk', etc).

And perhaps the main point I'd like to make - based on my experience - is that the more a guy wants from a dancer in the way of contact and making 'dirty talk', the more many (if not most) dancers will react by treating that individual purely as a customer and blanking out any personal feelings for him.

Thus endeth the gospel according to Phil....

Phil.

KS_Stevia
01-06-2010, 01:30 PM
KS_Stevia
The comment I have heard is that individual compliments are fine - its the constant accumulation of comments from customer after customer - each of which thinks they are saying something new and original - that irks many dancers.
.

Hearing, "you are very [charming, sweet, funny, interesting] and I'm having a great time in your company" is ALWAYS APPRECIATED.

Hearing, "you are very attractive and have perfect ______" is pretty neutral.

Hearing, "oh baby, your pussy is like a fiiiiine box of honey bee nectar and I can eat it better than any man!" gets gross and annoying.

Hearing, "you're too [smart, pretty] to be here" is instantly irksome because its a dig disguised as a compliment.

So, I guess, a custy could easily get by with giving honest, simple compliments, as long as they don't say it over and over and over again..in lieu of spending money, in hopes to get a date...see where I'm going with this?




Again, over the years, my experience has been that merely being in a SC as a customer is a turn off for most girls. As one dancer in the UK famously commented some years ago, "the motivations that bring a guy into a strip club are motivations that give me a good reason not to want to see him outside of it".
.

I don't know, SC hopping is a popular social event down here, lots of normal guys come in with their buddies before they go clubbing, etc. Of course, coming into an SC hoping to turn on a girl is the wrong way to go about it, we are primarily focused on extracting money from any and all men willing to part with it. Dating is the last thing on our mind...but we are HUMAN. However, and I'm sure I can get corroboration from the other girls..bugging and pestering us for phone numbers and dates is going to get you NO WHERE fast. If it happens, it happens organically, and the matchup could have occurred anywhere, chemistry is a strong thing.

How often does it happen? Well, unless a particular stripper has a fetish for old, married dudes who are bored while travelling for work...then probably not so often.




The key here is how dancers deal with contact. You have your way of dealing with it - other dancers may use a different strategy. Two dancers I know well OTC essentially deal with it by mentally blanking the customers out during the dance.
.

Sounds about right for me. I blank out, but not because I feel violated by a customer who is touching me, or getting touched, but because I tend to dissociate. Or, if I do think about the customer, but not about HIM personally, but rather about the movements I need to be making within the next few seconds to maintain smooth transitions and a feeling of intimacy.



But this conversation is about not how individual dancers react to a specific set of circumstances, but what a typical response is. And my impression is, , dancers would prefer to do air rather than contact dances, have customers not make personal comments, etc.

.

Sure, the easier a job is the better, but that's not realistic. And to be honest, I don't mind doing contact compared to air dances because I'm lazy, and its easier to do things while sitting down in the lap. And again, nice, simple compliments are ALWAYS APPRECIATED!

Phil-W
01-06-2010, 02:41 PM
^^^

Gawd - a sensible discussion where we end up largely agreeing with one another despite being on opposite sides of the fence.

The sky is going to fall in...

Phil. ;)