View Full Version : Sentimental attachments in strip clubs
WiseGuy_TX
01-06-2010, 07:41 PM
That's nothing to do with the topic and I don't talk about my personal life on the internet - not those kind of details. Why are you asking?...you dodging the question answers a lot. There is a reason your "point of view cant be seen" except by the cold hearted posse, i guess.
Hopper
01-06-2010, 11:56 PM
There are no universal rules. That would mean that the rules apply to every dancer and every customer in every situation.
I thought not.
As far as crossing any lines that preclude any relationship or friendship not based on you being a customer is concerned, you don't get to make that determination. Its entirely the dancer's call. The thing you may have to accept is that no matter how well and respectfully you might think you are treating her as a customer, in her mind, you're still treating her like a stripper. Some girls will have no problem with that, others will.
I wouldn't have thought any stripper would like me to treat her as anything but a stripper. I mean that in the sense that I treat it as a business relationship and not some other kind. In all other ways I basically treat strippers as girls IRL It's like if I buy a TV from a department store. I don't treat the salesman as a friend, but I still treat him like a person.
Hopper
01-07-2010, 12:36 AM
The general point I was making, was that although dancers may expect (and not be particularly offended by) comments about their bodies during a LD, it doesn't follow that they particularly like it. You're one of a hundred guys who might make comments in a week, and as a dancer once commented to me: "that soon gets old".
I figured that out long ago and I generally don't compliment strippers or talk about their bodies. It depends on the individual girl. I don't bother because I realise that she gets it all the time and because underneath she is a regular girl who IRL generally doesn't like strange men commenting about her body.
If I do compliment a stripper, I do it in such a way that it is not a "line". I don't try to be "original". I merely say it as a compliment. Women like compliments. So what irks strippers probably isn't compliments, but compliments used as a sexual advance. Some strippers might be happy if I don't speak at all, but that can be true in any social or business situation. While there is at least a veneer of congeniality, I am entitled to engage in the niceties.
And that is WHY I treat it as business, which some people here are equating with "cold". Well the stripper is "cold" toward me, so what choice do I have?
As to commenting on their own bodies, the phrase "sales tool" does come to mind.
Yes they do it in that context but I was thinking of when they do it in a more conversational manner. That could be a sales tool also.
But this raises another point: In a LD or even while hustling a stripper is in a situation where she is herself more relaxed about commenting on her body. She and the other strippers are taking turns showing off their naked bodies on stage and in an LD she is naked and maybe being touched. So naturally, unlike IRL, she is less likely to have inhibitions about tallking (conversationally) about her own body or customers saying things about it. She may actually enjoy the chance to relax that inhibition, since women do like to talk about their bodies.
Yes, its a job. But there are some circumstances when the dancer is well within her comfort zone that they they might enjoy dancing as well as earning. Doesn't happen often, I'll grant you, but it does happen.
Okay.
From my conversations with dancers (particularly when giving them a lift home - when they've got no reason to BS) the more contact you have with a dancer, the more grinding they do on you, the more they switch off from regarding you as a person, and the more firmly they put you in the "customer/forget about when leave work" mental pigeonhole.
Well it should be clear by now that I've never gotten to that stage. That is common sense really and one reason I don't become a "regular". Perhaps she could grow to like me, but if she doesn't like me after one, two or three meetings, she probably never will.
That's a contradiction in terms. You're saying you apply a different standard of courtesy to someone because she dances. Your different standard ITC might not be the dancer's definition of respectful.
In that case I am being disrespectful just by enterring the club, since IRL it is disrespectful to watch strange women while they undress.
I qualified my comment with "in some ways", meaning "not in all ways". "Some ways" refers to the fact that the nature of the business is that, no matter how nice you are, you are treating women differently to how you do IRL. That is the whole idea of a SC.
But like KS_Stevia said above, I am at least being respectful of the boudaries the stripper has set for me and talking with her in a respectful manner.
It could be argued that it is disrespectful to strippers even go to SCs. Even though they ask me to pay to look at them and touch them and their incomes depend on me doing it, that may not change the fact that it is abuse. If a someone offered you money to punch him in the face, would it be respectful for you to accept?
This is part of what I was saying about SCs being "bad". We pay to treat women as naturally we should not. We don't go to SCs to do the right thing, we go because we enjoy it. Right or wrong has nothing to do with it and there is no point trying to make a virtue of it.
Have you ever considered that a dancer's definition of respectful (even in a high contact club) might be having dances and not wanting contact?
Yeah maybe they'd just like me to stay out of the club altogether. Maybe they consider it disrespectful for me to watch them strip on stage. Again, while we should be respectful of strippers as we can, past a certain point it is pointless agonising over questions of respect for women in a SC.
You don't have a personal interaction with dancers in a SC, you have a professional one. Similarly you are not paying for intimacy, you are paying for physical contact. There is a huge difference.
I just can't win. Others here think I am heartless and now you are telling me it's completely impersonal. I think neither. Professional interaction does not exclude personal interaction. I treat strippers as people and I also can't help feeling sentiment for a girl I like enough to pay for her to strip for me but it doesn't go any further than that.
I said that the intimacy is only physical, as in "not emotional". By "physical intimacy" I mean physical interaction beyond what the girl would normally allow except with a sexual partner.
Hopper
01-07-2010, 12:51 AM
I think the underlying point was that Hopper was saying "why can't I be friends with a dancer", and the general tenor of the response was high contact levels, etc, increasingly make the relationship a professional, not a personal one.
...
That's where you are confused - somehow you have interpretted me the opposite of what I said. All along I have been saying that it is business. It is others here who are talking about commitment. God knows why.
Hopper
01-07-2010, 01:10 AM
...
Again, over the years, my experience has been that merely being in a SC as a customer is a turn off for most girls. As one dancer in the UK famously commented some years ago, "the motivations that bring a guy into a strip club are motivations that give me a good reason not to want to see him outside of it".
...
This ties in with my own view about SCs. While you should try as hard not to give strippers as little reason to dislike you as possible, just bing there may mean it's too late to worry about what they think of you. As you say - there is only one reason you could be there, and it is not a motive women naturally like in a man.
But as KS_Stevia said, either a woman likes you or she doesn't. Most women know that men go to SCs, or at least understand the motives which drive them there. The only difference for the stripper is that she is there with them.
A few times I have had strippers who were frosty at the start of the LD, perhaps because of the reason stated above, but who warmed right up to me after a few minutes. You would think that if it was just a "sales tool" they would have started the LD warm. In those cases it seemed more like they had forgotten themselves rather than a deliberate act.
Phil-W
01-07-2010, 01:44 AM
And that is WHY I treat it as business, which some people here are equating with "cold". Well the stripper is "cold" toward me, so what choice do I have?
The "coldness" comes from how you treat the dancer. I have known dancers have a sincere respect and liking for customers ITC, but that comes from the way the customer treats them. The general characteristic of those customers is courtesy toward the dancer.
Despite them being in a contact establishment, they don't attempt to touch, comment, get phone numbers, etc. In other words their behavior towards the dancer is set, not by the limits of what is permissible in the club, but by an innate courtesy.
I have known dancers sincerely happy that 'X' or 'Y' has come into the club. It does not follow that they wish to see them OTC, but that they feel that their time ITC will be a far more pleasant experience when 'X' or 'Y' is present - and also that they are spending time with customers that respect them as a person.
And I have known the same dancers audibly groan when they've spotted another customer that they knows they can earn money off of, but whom they feels treats them like an animated Barbie doll they can play with.
Well it should be clear by now that I've never gotten to that stage. That is common sense really and one reason I don't become a "regular". Perhaps she could grow to like me, but if she doesn't like me after one, two or three meetings, she probably never will.
This is becoming a slightly circular argument. Nothing will convince me that dancers like random strangers touching their boobs, butt, etc. They allow it for professional reasons. And if you don't like it (but allow it) you become cold toward the person doing the touching - any personal feelings toward the customer blanked out.
As I said above, there are customers that dancers like - but that comes from the courtesy with which they treat the dancers - for example by not touching the dancers, even when it's within the club rules.
Yeah maybe they'd just like me to stay out of the club altogether. Maybe they consider it disrespectful for me to watch them strip on stage. Again, while we should be respectful of strippers as we can, past a certain point it is pointless agonising over questions of respect for women in a SC.
I don't think dancers think it disrespectful to watch. Sure girls dance to earn a living, but some also are personally motivated to dance as well as financially motivated. Some are exhibitionists and some love being the center of attention.
I think most girls are flattered by respectful attention, but respectful might be staying well inside what is permitted in a contact club.
The only reason I go to SC's this day is to give a lift home to a limited number of dancers I know. I know and chat to more ITC - and they are fully aware I won't buy dances, etc.
One dancer every now and then will flash her boob at me - not for any financial motive, but because she likes me paying attention (and if I'm honest it's fun to look). It's her little bit of personal (as opposed to professional) fun.
I know why she likes chatting to me - she's said on several occasions: "you treat me like a person, not like a dancer, even though I'm at work". She can come over and relax for a few minutes, before going back to hustling for dances. And every now and then (not every time she chats) her exhibitionistic streak comes to the surface, and she walks away while giving me a big wink over her shoulder.
The reason for telling you the anecdote is to show that although a dancer's primary motive is to earn, that doesn't preclude them having the occasional bit of personal fun at work either.
I just can't win. Others here think I am heartless and now you are telling me it's completely impersonal. I think neither. Professional interaction does not exclude personal interaction. I treat strippers as people and I also can't help feeling sentiment for a girl I like enough to pay for her to strip for me but it doesn't go any further than that.
It is impersonal as soon as you go outside a dancers personal comfort zone - which can be well inside the limits of the club. If she doesn't like being touched, but permits it to earn money, she will blank you from her mind.
Professional interaction does not exclude personal interaction - but the dancer has to like you for there to be personal interaction.
Try a simple experiment when you next go to a SC. Next time you buy dances say to the girl: "I know this is a contact club, but I'm happy to fall in with your preferences. Would you like me to touch, or would you like me to keep my hands by my sides?"
Want to lay bets on the answer you get from most dancers?
Phil.
Hopper
01-07-2010, 01:49 AM
...you dodging the question answers a lot. There is a reason your "point of view cant be seen" except by the cold hearted posse, i guess.
Don't see what's cold about it. The reason I don't get attached to strippers is that they aren't interested. Except if I were able to take it out of the club, but outside of the club they are not strippers. I am talking about relations inside the club. Are you trying to say that some kind of meaningful sexual relationship is possible inside the club, and only inside the club?
Hopper
01-07-2010, 02:36 AM
The "coldness" comes from how you treat the dancer. I have known dancers have a sincere respect and liking for customers ITC, but that comes from the way the customer treats them. The general characteristic of those customers is courtesy toward the dancer.
Here I meant "cold" in the sense of emotional attachment, which is what some others here appear to be talking about. Even were I to keep my hands off, the dancer would not necessarily want anything other than a business relationship.
You've already pointed out that just being in the club may be enough reason for strippers not to like me.
Despite them being in a contact establishment, they don't attempt to touch, comment, get phone numbers, etc. In other words their behavior towards the dancer is set, not by the limits of what is permissible in the club, but by an innate courtesy.
Again, just being in the club watching them on stage and being hustled by them, and paying them for LDs, goes against the normal rules of courtesy toward women. SCs are not about doing the right thing, they are about doing the "wrong" thing by normal rules of society.
It seems you are trying to make SCs like IRL.
I have known dancers sincerely happy that 'X' or 'Y' has come into the club. It does not follow that they wish to see them OTC, but that they feel that their time ITC will be a far more pleasant experience when 'X' or 'Y' is present - and also that they are spending time with customers that respect them as a person.
And I have known the same dancers audibly groan when they've spotted another customer that they knows they can earn money off of, but whom they feels treats them like an animated Barbie doll they can play with.
As KS_Stevia said earlier, in a contact club touching is business as usual and dancers probably don't "groan" about customers who touch, or they'd be groaning all through their shift.
This is becoming a slightly circular argument. Nothing will convince me that dancers like random strangers touching their boobs, butt, etc. They allow it for professional reasons. And if you don't like it (but allow it) you become cold toward the person doing the touching - any personal feelings toward the customer blanked out.
As I said above, there are customers that dancers like - but that comes from the courtesy with which they treat the dancers - for example by not touching the dancers, even when it's within the club rules.
They probably don't like it. But in a contact club, it's the norm so I doubt that the dancers can afford to be that worried (also pointed out by KS_Stevia above).
For financial reasons, in a contact club strippers must want you to touch them (see my explanation further down), so respect in that regard is not an issue for strippers and therefore also not for customers.
I don't think dancers think it disrespectful to watch. Sure girls dance to earn a living, but some also are personally motivated to dance as well as financially motivated. Some are exhibitionists and some love being the center of attention.
I think most girls are flattered by respectful attention, but respectful might be staying well inside what is permitted in a contact club.
You draw the line at touching, yet looking at a woman while she shakes her ass on stage for you must be in the same ball park as touching in regard to respect.
How many girls are personally motivated to dance and strip on stage? I know some consider it a form of expression, but that is usually just making a virtue of necessity or taking what positives from it they can. The other motivation you give (financial) is beside the point, since that is also a motive for allowing touching in contact clubs.
The only reason I go to SC's this day is to give a lift home to a limited number of dancers I know. I know and chat to more ITC - and they are fully aware I won't buy dances, etc.
One dancer every now and then will flash her boob at me - not for any financial motive, but because she likes me paying attention (and if I'm honest it's fun to look). It's her little bit of personal (as opposed to professional) fun.
What has you chauffeuring strippers home got to do with the question of whether watching stage shows is disrespectful? (And do you turn your back to the stage while you are waiting to drive strippers home?)
I know why she likes chatting to me - she's said on several occasions: "you treat me like a person, not like a dancer, even though I'm at work". She can come over and relax for a few minutes, before going back to hustling for dances. And every now and then (not every time she chats) her exhibitionistic streak comes to the surface, and she walks away while giving me a big wink over her shoulder.
The reason for telling you the anecdote is to show that although a dancer's primary motive is to earn, that doesn't preclude them having the occasional bit of personal fun at work either.
Yeah but what is it to do with the topic? If we were all like you strippers would make no money. The rest of us have to "treat them like dancers" and they generally don't want us to get personal with them. You are their friend, we are not.
Odd that they can show their tits to their friends but for the rest of us it's disrespectful to look even though we are paying them. None of my female friends show me their tits for "fun". Obviosly in the club they don't follow the same rules of courtesy and respect.
It is impersonal as soon as you go outside a dancers personal comfort zone - which can be well inside the limits of the club. If she doesn't like being touched, but permits it to earn money, she will blank you from her mind.
Professional interaction does not exclude personal interaction - but the dancer has to like you for there to be personal interaction.
Of course it's outside her comfort zone - she's paid to be outside her comfort zone; and she's outside her comfort zone whether or not I touch her.
If she didn't like me touching her that much that it makes it impossible for her to like me or requires her to blank me from her mind, would she even be able to stand working in a contact club? I'm not saying strippers don't often blank customers out, but that would apply even if the customer doesn't touch them and doesn't necessarily always apply when they are touched.
By "personal interaction" all I meant was the normal interaction we have upon meeting people we don't know. Liking the person is not necessarily anything to do with it; we are friendly, considerate and courteous.
Try a simple experiment when you next go to a SC. Next time you buy dances say to the girl: "I know this is a contact club, but I'm happy to fall in with your preferences. Would you like me to touch, or would you like me to keep my hands by my sides?"
Want to lay bets on the answer you get from most dancers?
I don't think your experiment would work. She would reason that even though I am offering to defer to her preferences, if she say she prefers me not to touch, I will still be less motivated to continue to spend money on her.
She would know that another smarter stripper could lie and tell me her preferences are the same as mine. She knows that I will spend money on a stripper who does want me to touch her over one who doesn't and that my respect for her will not stop me from doing that.
She would also see through the obvious lie: If I am only refraining from touching her because she doesn't like it, then it's not out of real respect for her. I obviously still want to do it or I wouldn't be asking if she minds. Picture it: "Listen, I want to touch your boobs and ass, but I won't if you don't want me to". (Just talking about doing it is considered disrespectful IRL.)
Then there is the issue of fairness. Should a stripper who I don't touch because she does mind be paid the same as one I do touch because she doesn't mind? She doesn't want to be paid less - she would rather be touched.
As well as that, it's an expensive experiment, since I do want to touch them so if I don't I am not getting my full money's worth. Unless we bet an amount which will cover the price of an LD.
A number of dancers have "ground" my crotch persistently from start to finish of the LD without any request from me. I even backed up a few times out of respect because at first I wasn't sure it was deliberate. (Silly of me to think their aim could be that bad.) I didn't ask for it, wasn't even expecting it, and they could tell I wasn't, but they did it anyway. Of course it was a sales tool - they are competing for my business with other dancers they know will also do it. But the fact remains that none of them have to do it. Which is less "respectful" - rubbing their genitals against my erect genitalia, or me touching their tits with my hands? Obviously they have gone way beyond your boundary for respect and beyond even the call of duty.
BTW - I am careful and respectful about the way I touch strippers during LDs. I don't squeeze them or try anything overtly creepy with them. So however much they don't like being touched, I don't do anything to make it worse.
Hopper
01-07-2010, 03:33 AM
...
Its just like all the threads about regulars, and custies not understanding why we wouldn't completely rely on building regulars for our income. Well, its a gamble, and not as consistent an earnings as, say, a regular customer to a CPA. Same with you customers, right? A regular stripper may offer diminishing returns; ie, you find something newer and shinier, her contact levels drop, she becomes flaky and doesn't show when you come to see her, she drops her fantasy personae and you don't care for what's underneath. Then she starts talking about her utilities getting shut off, or not being able to afford food for her kid, etc. OTOH, things could get even better, more contact, lots of fun, etc...but a custy doesn't really need to establish a pseudo-relationship with a dancer to get more contact, he just needs to come back and spend more money.
All good points - being a regular could get complicated.
...
Am I making sense here? Edit to add, I am not asking you to extrapolate upon your personal life, as you've already made your boundaries clear (although my curiosity is still itchin to find out what area you are in ;) ), but all love here.
Yes, your whole post makes sense - obviously you get what I am trying to say and sympathise.
I'd sooner my personal life remained a mystery on the internet and most other places. Especialy at this site because certain people have gotten hostile here and it pisses me off enough without my personal life inadvertantly being dragged into it. I'm a fairly private person as much as I reasonably can be and the internet is definitely not a place to tell people all about oneself. Interesting though that my comments about SCs have made you curious about where I'm at personally.
I'm wondering why you thanked WiseGuy_TX's post if you agree with me and he disagrees with me.
Phil-W
01-07-2010, 06:41 AM
As KS_Stevia said earlier, in a contact club touching is business as usual and dancers probably don't "groan" about customers who touch, or they'd be groaning their whole shift.
The groaning is because they would prefer not to be touched, but have to submit to it in order to earn a living. Trust me - out of earshot dancers moan a lot about retarded customers.
Dancers deal with the dislike of being touched in different ways. Some blank the customer out of their minds. Others drink a fair bit during the shift and blunt their emotions that way.
It might be "business as usual", but that's mainly because most dancers can't offer no contact in a contact club and still earn a living.
What has you chauffeuring strippers home got to do with the question of whether watching stage shows is disrespectful? (And do you turn your back to the stage while you are waiting to drive strippers home?)
The only reason I go into venues is to give a few girls lifts home. I have no motivation to go into venues to watch girls of my own account. The primary reason I even go in is because a specific dancer has asked me to. If she's worked a long and tiring shift then I'm undemanding company for the last hour - she can chat for a few minutes every now and then and maybe join me in a glass of wine.
And yes - I pay little attention to the girls on stage. And none to the girls I have come to pick up. They and I prefer it that way. It's difficult for them to be naked in front of a guy they might have had a meal and a glass of wine with the previous night. And because I'm courteous by nature I respect that feeling.
What has chauffeuring to do with it? Because I've heard a lot of conversations over the years between dancers about what they like and dislike about stripping. Hence a good few of the comments in this thread.
Odd that they can show their tits to their friends but for the rest of us it's disrespectful to look even though we are paying them. None of my female friends show me their tits for "fun".
As I hoped I made clear in my last post, it's a game she likes to play in the special environment that's a strip venue. I seriously doubt she'd do it outside. And the primary reason I told the anecdote was to show that occasionally dancers can be a bit exhibitionistic purely for the fun of it. She enjoys it, and it puts a smile on my face as well....
Of course [touching is] outside her comfort zone - she's paid to be outside her comfort zone, whether or not I touch her.
I think you'll find the great majority of dancers are comfortable with the nudity - that's well within their comfort zone. Generally, it's things like being groped on the boobs and butt or gross personal comments that are outside their personal comfort zone.
I don't think your experiment [of suggesting that Hopper not touch during a lap dance] would work, since to strippers it is about money and not their own preferences...She would...see through the obvious lie: If I am only refraining from touching her because she doesn't like it, then it's not out of real respect for her. I obviously still want to do it or I wouldn't be asking if she minds.
I would argue strongly that from the dancer's POV, she will regard you not touching her when you have the option to as respect for her. As I said in my earlier post, I have known dancers seriously like customers - and for this very reason. They are customers that understand that they are asking for less than they could have, but do that because they can relate to the dancer as a person, not a dancing robot.
As well as that, it's an expensive experiment, since I do want to touch them so if I don't I am not getting my full money's worth.
So what you're saying (to be blunt) is that even when you're fully aware that touching the dancer might cause her a degree of personal discomfort, you'll still go ahead and touch, because if you don't you're "not getting your money's worth".
Dancers aren't automatons, they're people with emotions and feelings. I suspect the difference between us is that I can see that, and you can't.
Phil.
bem401
01-07-2010, 07:57 AM
I wouldn't have thought any stripper would like me to treat her as anything but a stripper. I mean that in the sense that I treat it as a business relationship and not some other kind. In all other ways I basically treat strippers as girls IRL It's like if I buy a TV from a department store. I don't treat the salesman as a friend, but I still treat him like a person.
Maybe I misunderstood you. When you mentioned the word "relationship", I jumped to the conclusion you meant something other than as a customer. If you are looking to cultivate an ITC relationship with a girl as a customer, you would be doing nothing wrong.
Again, no rules are universal, but I don't know any dancers who enjoy being treated like a stripper by anyone other than their customers and some girls don't even like that. Generally speaking, if you aspire to be more than a customer, I don't see how continuing to act like one (no matter how respectful) does you any good.
And I will second Phil's comment that a dancer will think more of someone who doesn't touch her when he has the option to.
KS_Stevia
01-07-2010, 10:41 AM
I think Hopper is stating that he is perfectly fine being a customer. And no, we do not resent all of our customers just because they are in the club. We need to make some kind of song about the guys we resent, something akin to the 12 Days of Xmas:
We don't like:
1. Guys who push physical limits beyond what is standard for the club and/or what we told him the limits are
2. Time wasters
3. Being pestered incessantly about giving our personal contact info for a date, hanging out, or solicitation for prostitution
4. Being insulted or treated like we are sub-human
Aside from that, everything else is well within the realms of manageable, even if its outside of our comfort level.
Right now I'm being pushed outside my comfort level for a contract job I'm doing. I have to deal with some code, that I'm not familiar with, and didn't think I would have to deal with when I accepted the position. It gives me great anxiety to go through it, but I do it because its part of the job. As I learn it and get used to it, anxiety subsides. Its manageable.
What isn't manageable, is my boss whipping his dick out and calling me a stupid slut while I work, then withholding my paycheck.
Am I getting clearer now?
Oh finally.......a proper chaueffer would wait outside in his car, wouldn't even bother going into the club, now THAT is the most respectful thing you could do, not pretend to turn your back when dances are performing, that's just silly. If you're in the club, you're getting something out of it, enjoying the social intricacies of the club...why turn your back and not look..fucking look and relax already.
Phil-W
01-07-2010, 11:53 AM
...And no, we do not resent all of our customers just because they are in the club...............
......Aside from that, everything else is well within the realms of manageable, even if its outside of our comfort level.
I'm not suggesting that dancers resent all their customers, but I would suggest that dancers do dislike a sub-set of their customers - those outside of the realms of manageable.
I'd argue that if you're a guy reading/posting on this board, you'd have few illusions about what dancers like and dislike while at work. And the option is open to those customers - as individuals - to reduce the level of contact, etc, they want in LD's. We have free will after all.
"By your choices, ye shall be known".
Oh finally.......a proper chauffeur would wait outside in his car, wouldn't even bother going into the club, now THAT is the most respectful thing you could do, not pretend to turn your back when dances are performing, that's just silly. If you're in the club, you're getting something out of it, enjoying the social intricacies of the club...why turn your back and not look..fucking look and relax already.
Three points here.
1) I have offered to pick up the girls from outside the venue - it's always been their choice that I come in towards the end of their shift.
2) Me not paying attention is a tacit agreement that has grown up between me and the dancers over the years that I have known them.
We're none of us prudes, and accidental glimpses of them naked is not going to phase any of us - but we're collectively happier if I don't take a deliberate interest.
3) I'm not particularly motivated to go into strip venues off my own bat. I go in to help out a limited number of dancers that I give lifts to - if they didn't want lifts, I wouldn't go in. If I do, I'm quite happy just talking to other dancers I know, the staff, or in one or two cases the owners/managers.
Phil.
KS_Stevia
01-07-2010, 11:55 AM
I'm not suggesting that dancers resent all their customers, but I would suggest that dancers do dislike a sub-set of their customers - those outside of the realms of manageable. .
Thank you Captain Obvious? Does this even need to be said?
ms.pittbull
01-07-2010, 12:20 PM
OK, well first you have to remeber that your goal going into the club is Entertainment!;)
So have the upclose and personal story is to make you the "reg" to feel like are here to help them but as soon as you run outta money the lady runs outta time.
The girls give each other that room as a respect thing because if not that leads to a bigger fight in the back, that the mgr doesn't want to deal with so ground rules are laid out before hand.
But always rember it's your money and if you see someone else that you like go sit at that ladies stage and if your regular girl doesn't want you to have fun you need a new regular girl.
PRESTIGECT
01-09-2010, 08:19 AM
I Have a favorite dancer that I met last year. The first night she sat at the bar with me for 5 hours having dinner and drinks and never asked me for a dance. She got number and text me the next day about having fun and lets get together some time. I thought she was just cultivating me as a regular. I live 90 minutes from the SC, went in a month later and the same thing happened we spent the night at the bar just drinking and having dinner. I went back three months later (sept) and we did the same thing and she gave me her new cell number to call her to go out. I call her for the first time two days later and leave a message and get no return call. I'm a little confused since she spent all this time with me and has gotten nothing but dinner, drinks and conversation. I pay a visit in mid October and I asked the bartender where she was and she pointed to the dancer right next to me, I didn't recognize her she wasn't dressed as classy as she normally dressed she was just wearing a bikini top and bottom and she had hair extensions with curls in it. She looked awful and she knew that I didn't like it. I told her I liked her for who she was and that she was always classy. She suggests to me that I call her to go out and why havn't I called her. I told her I called her once before and she didn't return my call and that if I call her she needs to be courtious and return the call or would she prefer a text. SHe told me to call her and leave a message if she didn't pick up. The next week I call to set up a date and get no response. Two weeks later she texts me to come see her and that she had something special for me. I happened to be ten minutes away from the SC at a party so I went by 45 minutes later.
The place was dead and as soon as I walked in she jumped on me and gave me a huge hug. She looked phenominal and took all my prior advice and was so classy and sexy. I told her that she looked great. We had dinner and drinks and she told me that I should goto VIP with her since I've never had a dance with her. We went back to the VIP and it was great with only my pants and her bikini between us as i was half in her by her own doing. After 6 dances I couldn't take any more so I gave her $200.00 and went back to the bar. She went back to clean and freshen up and joined me at the bar. She then told to meet her at another bar close to her house. We went there and closed the place down and made out in the parking lot like two teenagers. Tells me to call her the next day to make plans for sunday. I call her and get no response.
The next month I go in and see her and shes all upset about slow the club is and she's not making money. I feel the sob story but realize that she makes enough money but that she spends it faster than she makes it. We have our usual dinner and drinks and she want's to do VIP. I decline but give her $200.00 anyways to help her for the night.
The first week of December I go to visit my favorite and bring her 2 outfits . One is a dancers santa's helper outfit for X-mas season the other is a Versace cocktail dress for going to parties. She was shocked by my presents and wanted to know why I did it. I told her the santa's out fit was for work to help her make extra money and the cocktail dress was for when I pick her up to go out. She said great just call me a few days before and I'll go out with you. I went on a night I usually didn't go in so she had many regulars waiting for her to give VIP dances, she said to me you can hang out but I'm not going to have much time for you tonight. I said no problem I just wanted you to have the gifts.
I call her two weeks later to ask her out for Saturday Night and got no return call. I decide to go to three parties solo. As the night proceeds I start getting texts from her about how much she missed me, loved me etc. I decided not to return any of the texts until the next day. I send a text the next day and get no response.
My divorce is finalized 12/30 so I go to the SC to see if my favorite is there. I walk in and I find out she's not there but one of her friends joins me and starts telling me all about her.
Heres the info I got: She really liked me after the first two times we met but fealt I was a bull shitter which I'm not. Than she a boyfriend when I started showing up again and broke up with the day her and I had VIP. She than had a rough month and than started dating another guy. When I gave her the gifts she felt likebad because she a boyfriend but they broke up a week later and she was mad at me for not coming to their X-mas party at the club. She felt I should of called more than once to ask her out for a date and that I wasn't aggressive enough in pursuing her. She also felt that I couldnt afford to date her. I bought her friend dinner and thanked her for the information. I than pulled out my Black Amex to pay my bill (the first time I used it at the club). I told her friend to tell my favorite I though more highly as a person and not looking at her as a stripper and that I could afford anything I want and money was no object but that I like to be conservative around women because I did'nt want them to like me for my money.
Lo and behold guess who called looking for me last night my old Favorite. I just sent her a text telling her to call me when she wants to make a dinner for me and than we can get together. Got a late start going to hit the slopes .
WiseGuy_TX
01-09-2010, 09:49 AM
...^another made up story by CG.
KS_Stevia
01-09-2010, 10:25 AM
What is CG?
I know that some dancers and some customers enjoy dancing this type of dance, full of drama and emotion. But its never been my style.
If this story is true, she gambled 10 hours of her free time to snag this regular. Now, in my civilian life, I worked a professional sales job for some time, and I probably threw in 10 + hours to snag certain clients, all the TIME. But its different in the SC world. Customers are so unreliable, there is no way I could have any guarantee that spending that much free time with a guy would lead him to start giving me $200 for nothing, buying outfits, etc.
Honestly, I'd rather spend 15 minutes talking, get a couple of dances, and buy my own outfits. Just a different approach, and one, I'd say, that is more honest and genuine. It also made working a lot more fun, always got to meet new people and show them a good time, instead of spending all my energy on a couple of sad sacks.
Anyway, guess this story is B.S., so I'm just wasting time typing because I don't want to clean the kitchen right now. ;)
rockie
01-09-2010, 11:24 AM
Prestigect: I wish you well with that train wreck! Free from drama for less than 10 days and you can't resist another 'Train Wreck". I'm getting all misty eyed just thinking about it! Happy New Year!
Hopper
01-10-2010, 04:36 AM
The groaning is because they would prefer not to be touched, but have to submit to it in order to earn a living.
They don't have to submit to touching to earn a living, they could get a different job. I know that some strippers can't get another type of job for certain reasons, but not all of them. Even they could work in a no-contact club if there are any.
If they hate customers touching them that much, I wonder why it is worth the money for them. It's silly for a girl to work in a contact club and spend all her time hoping her customers won't touch her.
However, I don't deny that strippers prefer not to be touched and may think better of customers who don't. But I don't think they have a high opinion of customers who just watch during LDs either.
Trust me - out of earshot dancers moan a lot about retarded customers.
You think I am retarded because I touch? If so, the strippers are even more retarded for working in a contact club.
Dancers deal with the dislike of being touched in different ways. Some blank the customer out of their minds. Others drink a fair bit during the shift and blunt their emotions that way.
In my experience strippers don't blank me out or appear to have drunk a lot.
It might be "business as usual", but that's mainly because most dancers can't offer no contact in a contact club and still earn a living.
It's not the only way to earn a living and nobody's forcing them to work there.
The only reason I go into venues is to give a few girls lifts home. I have no motivation to go into venues to watch girls of my own account. The primary reason I even go in is because a specific dancer has asked me to. If she's worked a long and tiring shift then I'm undemanding company for the last hour - she can chat for a few minutes every now and then and maybe join me in a glass of wine.
And yes - I pay little attention to the girls on stage. And none to the girls I have come to pick up. They and I prefer it that way. It's difficult for them to be naked in front of a guy they might have had a meal and a glass of wine with the previous night. And because I'm courteous by nature I respect that feeling.
What has chauffeuring to do with it? Because I've heard a lot of conversations over the years between dancers about what they like and dislike about stripping. Hence a good few of the comments in this thread.
I see, but you got away from the question of whether watching strippers on stage is respectful.
A real gentleman would insist on waiting outside the club whether they wanted you in there or not. Therefore I think maybe you do enjoy being in SCs and enjoy the company of strippers. "By your choices you shall be known."
As I hoped I made clear in my last post, it's a game she likes to play in the special environment that's a strip venue. I seriously doubt she'd do it outside. And the primary reason I told the anecdote was to show that occasionally dancers can be a bit exhibitionistic purely for the fun of it. She enjoys it, and it puts a smile on my face as well....
When I said earlier that what is appropriate in SCs is different to what is appropriate IRL, you assumed I meant that it is okay to be completely disrespectful to strippers. Now you are saying the same thing.
I think you'll find the great majority of dancers are comfortable with the nudity - that's well within their comfort zone. Generally, it's things like being groped on the boobs and butt or gross personal comments that are outside their personal comfort zone.
I don't make gross personal comments. I grope, yes - grope means feel. But that's all I do. In all other ways I behave normally.
I would argue strongly that from the dancer's POV, she will regard you not touching her when you have the option to as respect for her. As I said in my earlier post, I have known dancers seriously like customers - and for this very reason. They are customers that understand that they are asking for less than they could have, but do that because they can relate to the dancer as a person, not a dancing robot.
Earlier you said that strippers generally disrespect customers just for being in the SC, because of their motive for being there.
Why is a stripper any less a "dancing robot" when she is just dancing in front of a customer (on stage or in an LD) without him touching her? Do you think it is comfortable for her to dance naked for a stranger or a room full of strangers? They want to strip naked and wave their pussies in front of you with their legs wide open about as much as they want you to touch their boobs and butt.
We don't go to SCs to be liked or show respect for strippers. We don't go there to relate to them and they don't want us to. Both the customers and the strippers don't care about whether touching them is respectful. The strippers don't care because they are doing it to make money.
SCs are SUPPOSED to be bad, not nice or normal! Both strippers and customers are bad for being there - and they both don't care. There are naturally bad consequences of this for both parties.
The courtesy strippers appreciate is that which enables them to be as comfortable as they can AND make maximum income. They don't want total respect if that doesn't coincide with maximum money. All other things being equal, no customer who doesn't touch strippers is going to spend as much as a customer who does.
So what you're saying (to be blunt) is that even when you're fully aware that touching the dancer might cause her a degree of personal discomfort, you'll still go ahead and touch, because if you don't you're "not getting your money's worth".
Yes.
Does she care that losing $80 of my money causes me a degree of discomfort? Does she care that working half a day to earn it was uncomfortable - probably more so than the equivalent work she does to earn the same amount? Well I don't expect her to. If I offer not to touch her out of respect, should she offer me a reduced price out of repect?
You seem to forget that the whole reason we pay strippers the prices they charge in contact clubs is to financially compensate them for the discomfort. You talk as if I am touching them free of charge.
I don't mean strippers any ill will, so I do treat them like people. I am doing business with the strippers - that is not the same as relating to them like robots. Business does not exclude treating them as people. Touching them also does not exclude treating them as people.
Dancers aren't automatons, they're people with emotions and feelings. I suspect the difference between us is that I can see that, and you can't.
Then you need to get over yourself.
By your logic, submitting to being touched means they don't consider their own feelings. Nobody's forcing them, so do they do it because they don't respect themselves?
I welcome your input, since you personally know a number of strippers. But I am having trouble making sense of it.
Hopper
01-10-2010, 04:45 AM
Maybe I misunderstood you. When you mentioned the word "relationship", I jumped to the conclusion you meant something other than as a customer. If you are looking to cultivate an ITC relationship with a girl as a customer, you would be doing nothing wrong.
What other kind of ITC relationship is there?
Again, no rules are universal, but I don't know any dancers who enjoy being treated like a stripper by anyone other than their customers and some girls don't even like that. Generally speaking, if you aspire to be more than a customer, I don't see how continuing to act like one (no matter how respectful) does you any good.
Who else beside customers would treat them like strippers? How else would they like their customers to treat them? We ARE customers - how else do they expect us to act? They ARE strippers, so how else should we treat them? Treating a stripper like a stripper does not necessarily entail acting the fool or treating them like they are not people.
And I will second Phil's comment that a dancer will think more of someone who doesn't touch her when he has the option to.
As Phil also said, they think poorly of you just for being at a SC; so maybe it is more accurate to say they think of you less poorly if you don't touch them. But since there are financial reasons for why strippers in contact clubs want you to touch them, so I don't think they would appreciate it at all.
We don't go to SCs to make strippers like us.
Hopper
01-10-2010, 04:54 AM
I think Hopper is stating that he is perfectly fine being a customer.
I am saying that ITC there is no other kind of relation with a stripper than being a customer and probably also little chance of it going OTC. Also that I don't expect any affection from strippers - it's all business.
However, I would not say no to taking it OTC if I could. I would not try to achieve this by becoming a regular though. I would just ask her out. I don't mean after chatting her up for a few minutes. I would have to give her a chance to be reasonably comfortable with me first.
I don't want you to think that I go to SCs looking for dates. I actually go to SCs to avoid the hassle of dating if anything. It's just that wherever I meet a hot girl, I want to ask her out, and any stripper I like enough to spend money on I would probably like to date.
So far, I have never asked a stripper out, though I think there are times when I might have succeeded. There are much easier situations in which to get dates with girls who are just as hot.
So yes I am happy just being a customer, though naturally it involves some frustration.
And no, we do not resent all of our customers just because they are in the club. We need to make some kind of song about the guys we resent, something akin to the 12 Days of Xmas:
We don't like:
1. Guys who push physical limits beyond what is standard for the club and/or what we told him the limits are
2. Time wasters
3. Being pestered incessantly about giving our personal contact info for a date, hanging out, or solicitation for prostitution
4. Being insulted or treated like we are sub-human
These are a few of my least favourite things...
Aside from that, everything else is well within the realms of manageable, even if its outside of our comfort level.
Right now I'm being pushed outside my comfort level for a contract job I'm doing. I have to deal with some code, that I'm not familiar with, and didn't think I would have to deal with when I accepted the position. It gives me great anxiety to go through it, but I do it because its part of the job. As I learn it and get used to it, anxiety subsides. Its manageable.
What isn't manageable, is my boss whipping his dick out and calling me a stupid slut while I work, then withholding my paycheck.
Am I getting clearer now?
You may have to draw it for them.
Oh finally.......a proper chaueffer would wait outside in his car, wouldn't even bother going into the club, now THAT is the most respectful thing you could do, not pretend to turn your back when dances are performing, that's just silly. If you're in the club, you're getting something out of it, enjoying the social intricacies of the club...why turn your back and not look..fucking look and relax already.
Right - best way to not look is to not be there. There is also the question of why he has made it his job at all to ferry his stripper friends home from work. Does he ferry his non-stripper friends home from work too?
Hopper
01-10-2010, 04:57 AM
I'm not suggesting that dancers resent all their customers, but I would suggest that dancers do dislike a sub-set of their customers - those outside of the realms of manageable.
I'd argue that if you're a guy reading/posting on this board, you'd have few illusions about what dancers like and dislike while at work. And the option is open to those customers - as individuals - to reduce the level of contact, etc, they want in LD's. We have free will after all.
"By your choices, ye shall be known".
Three points here.
1) I have offered to pick up the girls from outside the venue - it's always been their choice that I come in towards the end of their shift.
2) Me not paying attention is a tacit agreement that has grown up between me and the dancers over the years that I have known them.
We're none of us prudes, and accidental glimpses of them naked is not going to phase any of us - but we're collectively happier if I don't take a deliberate interest.
3) I'm not particularly motivated to go into strip venues off my own bat. I go in to help out a limited number of dancers that I give lifts to - if they didn't want lifts, I wouldn't go in. If I do, I'm quite happy just talking to other dancers I know, the staff, or in one or two cases the owners/managers.
Phil.
Exercise your "free will" and wait outside in the car, or tell them to ask a female friend for a lift home instead. Either you think being in SCs is okay or you don't. Why make up special reasons for yourself to do it? If you don't think they are okay, and you don't enjoy being there, then why go?
Phil-W
01-10-2010, 10:43 AM
Exercise your "free will" and wait outside in the car, or tell them to ask a female friend for a lift home instead. Either you think being in SCs is okay or you don't. Why make up special reasons for yourself to do it? If you don't think they are okay, and you don't enjoy being there, then why go?
I do exercise my free will - I listen to the dancer's request to join her at the end of the shift and accede.
I'm not interested in the venues as SC's. I've had far too many conversations with dancers over the years about the realities of the job to get an erotic charge out of being in one.
And over the years I've gotten to know quite a few owners/managers, staff (both bar and security) and of course quite a number of dancers. So I'm quite happy being at the back of the venue and chatting to any of the above. Makes the time pass quicker for all of us. And as such, for me it's not vastly different from being in a normal bar.
Put me down as a detached (and sometimes highly amused) observer of the male of the species inside SC's.
Phil.
Elvia
01-10-2010, 04:45 PM
Thanks for reminding me why I would never work in Guam, hopper.
no customer who doesn't touch strippers is going to spend as much as a customer who does.
I see you're still as clueless as ever. Please stop trying to act like you're an SC expert. You just embarrass yourself every time.
Put me down as a detached (and sometimes highly amused) observer of the male of the species inside SC's.
Phil. I amuse myself at times but I believe banging strippers (even for money) is more fun than giving them a ride home unless there is some sort of bonus in exchange for gas money ;)
FBR
Hopper
01-10-2010, 06:14 PM
no customer who doesn't touch strippers is going to spend as much as a customer who does.
I see you're still as clueless as ever.
You didn't read that in the context of the discussion. I was talking about customers who are only refraining from touching because of the stripper's preference, not customers who don't wish to touch out of their own preference.
I believe you have "thanked" two of my "clueless" posts in the past.
Please stop trying to act like you're an SC expert. You just embarrass yourself every time.
I don't have to be an expert to know that their motivation to spend will be less if they don't touch than if they do. It's straight logic.
Customers here don't need to be "SC experts" (whatever they are) just to express their own opinions about SCs based on their own experiences or what they have been told by strippers. I've never acted like I am an expert here.
The last time you accused me of pretending to be an expert was when you disagreed with me about how much clothing a stripper must take off to be a classed as a stripper. I don't need to be an expert to be entitled to an opinion on that. I don't remember the other "times" you are referring to.
Thanks for reminding me why I would never work in Guam, hopper.
That's a relief.
Hopper
01-10-2010, 06:29 PM
I do exercise my free will - I listen to the dancer's request to join her at the end of the shift and accede.
I'm not interested in the venues as SC's. I've had far too many conversations with dancers over the years about the realities of the job to get an erotic charge out of being in one.
I'm aware of the realities too - but I still go as a customer. The erotic charge I get is nothing to do with how happy the strippers are doing their job or what they think of me. The erotic part is purely that I like the strippers. I don't see why that should be different for you, whether you participate or not.
And over the years I've gotten to know quite a few owners/managers, staff (both bar and security) and of course quite a number of dancers. So I'm quite happy being at the back of the venue and chatting to any of the above. Makes the time pass quicker for all of us. And as such, for me it's not vastly different from being in a normal bar.
I don't begrudge you that choice of social setting if it's what you like.
Since I do not find most strippers attractive, I usually find myself doing what you do, except I don't know any of the staff. I probably stay for just as long too.
Put me down as a detached (and sometimes highly amused) observer of the male of the species inside SC's.
I still think it is suspicious that you just happen to choose to ferry your stripper friends home and not friends with other jobs. I don't believe that it is just the males you are interested in observing if there are also sexy girls there. I suspect that helping your stripper friends is partly a pretext to be in SCs because you have lost the stomach for participating the normal way.
yoda57us
01-10-2010, 07:15 PM
I amuse myself at times but I believe banging strippers (even for money) is more fun than giving them a ride home unless there is some sort of bonus in exchange for gas money ;)
FBR
Well, giving em' a ride home after you bang em' is fun too!
I'm just sayin'....
KS_Stevia
01-10-2010, 10:19 PM
So what you're saying (to be blunt) is that even when you're fully aware that touching the dancer might cause her a degree of personal discomfort, you'll still go ahead and touch, because if you don't you're "not getting your money's worth".
Yes.
Does she care that losing $80 of my money causes me a degree of discomfort?
Now, I don't know if I like the sound of this. If the dancer has told you not to touch a certain area, you would still go ahead and touch her there? Tell me it ain't so Hopper, I thought we were headed in the right direction! :P
And some dancers do make really good money in non-contact clubs. Its true whether you believe it to be or not.
chris91
01-11-2010, 03:58 AM
All other things being equal, no customer who doesn't touch strippers is going to spend as much as a customer who does.
This is simply not true. I know it's been said many times before on this board, but clearly it needs repeating. In my experience, the guys who spend the most money are the least grabby.
Hopper
01-11-2010, 04:48 AM
Now, I don't know if I like the sound of this. If the dancer has told you not to touch a certain area, you would still go ahead and touch her there? Tell me it ain't so Hopper, I thought we were headed in the right direction! :P
The discomfort Phil-W was talking about is the discomfort from being touched at all, in the areas she does consent to. Phil is saying I am completely uncaring for doing even that. If I were touching where I was not allowed, I would be getting more than what I paid for, not just what I paid for.
I was talking about touching in a contact club, and only touching the areas the rules allow. Usually strippers have not made any restrictions on me other than the club rules. If the stripper puts further restrictions on that, then I will not argue - but I also may not buy an LD from her. I expect her to tell me her rules differ from the club rules before I pay her, or I do not know before-hand what I am paying for.
I recall only one stripper who did make a restriction beside the club rules. She said I was not allowed to touch her breasts. She actually told me that it was one of the club rules, but it was not. She told me this only after I had paid, at the beginning of the LD. Anyway, I didn't argue and I didn't touch them, even though I had been conned. Perhaps I should have asked for some of my money back or for a longer LD to make up for it. I liked her enough that I still wanted to proceed, so I didn't make an issue of it. Still felt like a sap though.
So yes I respect the wishes of the dancers. What direction am I headed in now?
And some dancers do make really good money in non-contact clubs. Its true whether you believe it to be or not.
Well I know non-contact clubs exist so the strippers working in them must make money. I don't think there are any non-contact clubs where I live, so I don't know first-hand. Before reading at these forums, I assumed it would be the same everywhere else in the world where there are SCs. After finding out here that there are non-contact clubs, I assumed that clubs in any given town are either all contact or all non-contact depending on the local laws, so that the customers would have no choice about what kind they go to. I expected that most men would like to touch, so I thought that non-contact clubs would not do well alongside contact clubs in the same area.
Are you saying non-contact clubs do okay in competition with contact clubs inthe same area?
Hopper
01-11-2010, 05:05 AM
This is simply not true. I know it's been said many times before on this board, but clearly it needs repeating. In my experience, the guys who spend the most money are the least grabby.
Phil and I were talking about customers who do want to touch. We are talking about contact clubs, where touching is allowed, not touching against the rules in non-contact clubs or against the limits set by individual dancers.
Phil says that decency requires these customers to defer to what the stipper herself prefers; but still pay the same as someone who does touch. I was not saying that customers who are happy not to touch, purely due to their own preferences, will spend less than customers who like to touch.
The point of me saying that was that it would still be in the interests of the stripper to go with the customer's preference and against here own, since she would know that even though he is being nice, he is naturally still less motivated to spend money - on more LDs or longer LDs or LDs with a greater number of strippers - than if he allowed himself to enjoy it more.
Not trying to be an expert here - I don't know this to be true; it is just what I think logically should be true. Strippers here are of course allowed to disagree with me.
WiseGuy_TX
01-11-2010, 05:26 AM
...Hopper, if your 18yr daughter just started stripping in a club, what advice would you give her about customers that pay to touch her? Please don't dodge the question as usual.
Hopper
01-11-2010, 06:31 AM
...Hopper, if your 18yr daughter just started stripping in a club, what advice would you give her about customers that pay to touch her? Please don't dodge the question as usual.
Don't work in a strip club. At least don't do it long-term. If she works in a contact club, she has no choice but to allow touching. If she disallows it she might not make enough money for it to be worth doing anyway. I don't know - some strippers here say they make a lot of money in stage tips alone.
I believe that stripping, being against a woman's natural instincts for various reasons, must have bad psychological effects on women who do it. Therefore I would not recommend any girl do it long term. I can't say how long is okay, just that after some time it must seriously affect some vital parts of them.
But how long a girl works as a stripper is her decision, not mine, so what advice I'd give my daughter or any other stripper does not impinge upon what I should do in SCs. I am not there to do the right thing, I am there to do what I like, and if strippers there like me paying them to allow that, then I don't see what the big deal is. They are as culpable as I am for crossing whatever line and they are getting as much out of it as I am.
I only dodge questions that are nobody else's business. And "twice" is not "usually".
bem401
01-11-2010, 08:14 AM
What other kind of ITC relationship is there?
Who else beside customers would treat them like strippers? How else would they like their customers to treat them? We ARE customers - how else do they expect us to act? They ARE strippers, so how else should we treat them? Treating a stripper like a stripper does not necessarily entail acting the fool or treating them like they are not people.
As Phil also said, they think poorly of you just for being at a SC; so maybe it is more accurate to say they think of you less poorly if you don't touch them. But since there are financial reasons for why strippers in contact clubs want you to touch them, so I don't think they would appreciate it at all.
We don't go to SCs to make strippers like us.
Hopper, you did not initially make it clear you were talking about ITC relationships. When you mentioned developing relationships, I (perhaps wrongly) thought you meant non-ITC.
Non-ITC relationships are not helped at all by behaving like a customer IMO. A lot of the girls do not feel good enough about the guys who patronize them to have anything to do with them outside of work. My comments were based on my impression that you were discussing more than a dancer-customer relationship with the dancer. I have developed several non-ITC relationships with dancers but I was not an active customer of any of them when these things developed. Maybe it was a coincidence, but my RL interaction with any of them only occurred after I stopped being a customer (and I was a respectful customer at that). I do not feel any of these relationships would have developed if I was still considered a customer by any of them.
Hopper
01-11-2010, 10:14 AM
Hopper, you did not initially make it clear you were talking about ITC relationships. When you mentioned developing relationships, I (perhaps wrongly) thought you meant non-ITC.
You are probably referring to this, which is what you first responded to:
So I don't know how I have ruled out any relationship with a dancer, since I am just getting what I paid for and haven't crossed any lines. Unless you are saying that just touching her even in the permitted areas cancels any possibility of OTC relations in the stripper's mind. I don't see why that would be a universal rule.
I was originally discussing the pointlessness of going to SCs looking for some kind of ITC personal relationship with a stripper, by becoming a regular. Phil diverted the discussion into whether or not a customer would go out with a customer who touched her in a contact club (within the set limits). So I asked him why this would be a rule - since I wasn't previously ruling out the possibility of starting a sexual relationship with a stripper outside of the club.
So I can see how you got confused. You should have tracked back a few posts to get the context. I switched from talking about ITC relations to the possibilities of taking it out of the club.
Non-ITC relationships are not helped at all by behaving like a customer IMO. A lot of the girls do not feel good enough about the guys who patronize them to have anything to do with them outside of work. My comments were based on my impression that you were discussing more than a dancer-customer relationship with the dancer. I have developed several non-ITC relationships with dancers but I was not an active customer of any of them when these things developed. Maybe it was a coincidence, but my RL interaction with any of them only occurred after I stopped being a customer (and I was a respectful customer at that).
It sounds like you are talking about "regulars" and saying that strippers do not like relationships with a customer outside of the club while he is her regular ITC. Maybe that is what Phil also had in mind on the subject of touching. I have never been a regular and never want to, so I would never be in that situation. So I would never "behave like a customer" in that sense.
What I was asking was if I have one or two LDs with a stripper in a contact club and I touch her during them (within the set limits), does she right away put me in the undatable category?
I'm not asking this so I can make up a strategy to pick up strippers. I would not refrain from touching even if it did put me in their undatable category. I go to SCs for the LDs, and I am not going to forgo the touching just on the slim chance that I can get a date. I would get a "no" probably 9 times out of 10 (or 99 out of 100) and that means I have just missed out on the touching part of LDs with 9 strippers to get a date with one. Instead I could have contact LDs with 10 strippers and go down the street to a regular night club each night I'm at the SC and eventually pick up a nice girl there for the cost of a couple of drinks.
This is what I meant when I said I don't try to be anything but a customer ITC. I would still date a stripper I liked if I could, but I'm not going to change what I do ITC just to increase the likelihood of a date. From what I am told here, that is not likely even when there is not contact during LDs. I go to SCs for strippers, and regular clubs to pick up girls (where it is much easier). Simpler that way. If a stripper likes me and wants a date despite me being a customer, of course I'll take it.
bem401
01-11-2010, 10:36 AM
What I was asking was if I have one or two LDs with a stripper in a contact club and I touch her during them (within the set limits), does she right away put me in the undatable category?
I wasn't even talking strictly about dating dancers. Its just my experience that the girls I became friends with IRL most likely would not have allowed into their real life any man still patronizing them in the club. I've never really discussed it with them though. The dances just became mutually uncomfortable for us to continue and eventually RL friendships developed. It wasn't anything planned either. Its just sort of how things transpired. Some of the other girls I've become RL friends with are girls I've never even danced with either.
To answer your question specifically, it depends on the woman, but most of my friends would be reluctant to date or become friends with any guy actively buying dances (particularly full contact ones) from them, particularly if we are talking about a relatively new customer, all of whom they tend to be wary of.
KS_Stevia
01-11-2010, 10:39 AM
I recall only one stripper who did make a restriction beside the club rules. She said I was not allowed to touch her breasts. She actually told me that it was one of the club rules, but it was not. She told me this only after I had paid, at the beginning of the LD. Anyway, I didn't argue and I didn't touch them, even though I had been conned. Perhaps I should have asked for some of my money back or for a longer LD to make up for it. I liked her enough that I still wanted to proceed, so I didn't make an issue of it. Still felt like a sap though.
I've never worked at any club (out of about 16-18 clubs total) where breast contact was allowed. It has ALWAYS been specifically disallowed in the rules stated when a contract was signed. That doesn't mean that it wasn't club standard at a few clubs I've worked, but its never a club rule. Then again, the dirtiest clubs I worked were in a city with a bullshit 3 foot rule, the clubs were really nice and upscale, and many of the dancers were gorgeous too.
I don't really understand, or appreciate boob touching as a norm, especially in the first dance. Boobs and nipples are really sensitive, intimate areas, and so many men do not touch them properly, they grope and maul, so my boobs get sore and painful halfway through the night. Yes, I'm talking from experience working in a club where boob touching was the norm.
Anyway, whatever your club allows, and whatever the dancers are willing to do, that's fine...but I wouldn't ever work again in a place where boob grabbing was an expectation of the customers, especially during the first dance. That's just me, the boob grabbing is the point where I tune the customers out, its really waaaaaaaay beyond my comfort level. Boobs aren't legs, ya know?
I expected that most men would like to touch, so I thought that non-contact clubs would not do well alongside contact clubs in the same area.
Are you saying non-contact clubs do okay in competition with contact clubs inthe same area?
So, you admit that you didn't know, admitting your mistakes is progress. :P There are some cities where no-contact and contact work fine along side each other. Atlanta is one. Also, a lot of New England, cities are really close together, so one city may be no contact, but its only a 20 minute drive to another city with full contact.
Maybe yoda, or a custy with more experience in these areas say something. I've never worked in an air dance club.
Phil-W
01-11-2010, 01:13 PM
I amuse myself at times but I believe banging strippers (even for money) is more fun than giving them a ride home unless there is some sort of bonus in exchange for gas money ;)
I've gently ducked out of one or two suggestions of rides home in return for sex. Not quite my style, I'm afraid.
(Boring, ain't I?)
Phil. 8)
Phil-W
01-11-2010, 01:38 PM
I still think it is suspicious that you just happen to choose to ferry your stripper friends home and not friends with other jobs. I don't believe that it is just the males you are interested in observing if there are also sexy girls there. I suspect that helping your stripper friends is partly a pretext to be in SCs because you have lost the stomach for participating the normal way.
Hopper - I have a life outside of SC's. I help (as I have posted before) a few dancers out with lifts, but it's not a major part of my time.
If a girl wants me to get to the venue at 1, I'll spend time with more conventional friends until 12.30, then make my excuses and leave. I'd guess my total time in SC's is no more that 2 - 3 hours a week, a fraction of the time I spend on other things.
Phil.
KS_Stevia
01-11-2010, 02:23 PM
Hey, we all gotta have hobbies, right? ;)
WestCoast101
01-11-2010, 02:42 PM
I've gently ducked out of one or two suggestions of rides home in return for sex. Not quite my style, I'm afraid.
(Boring, ain't I?)
Phil. 8)
boring sounds like it, sorry i don't buy any of the "friends" bullshit i am reading on this thread and elsewhere!!! its all garbage because these girls are captive during their shift, they're stuck with whatever bloke comes in all the time to the club. all clubs have these hang out types, what llike the dancer is goin be rude and tell then off? they wouldn't go near these guys outside the club or using them to get transport., everyone knows that is true.
WestCoast101
01-11-2010, 02:46 PM
Hey, we all gotta have hobbies, right? ;)
there life is fictionalizing friendships with dancer friends who have zero interest but try to be polite and not tell them, every club has a few clowns lke this and i cann tell you its a good reason not to focus on certain clubs too much or some dancer might think you pushin this friends bullshit... its all crap
mediocrity
01-11-2010, 02:48 PM
there life is fictionalizing friendships with dancer friends who have zero interest but try to be polite and not tell them, every club has a few clowns lke this and i cann tell you its a good reason not to focus on certain clubs too much or some dancer might think you pushin this friends bullshit... its all crap
So as a former dancer now, you are saying I am incapable of having friends? I have one or two dudes I met who are cool, and I met them ITC.
WestCoast101
01-11-2010, 03:15 PM
mediocrity, of course there have been very rare cases of dancer developing real friends, but from what i've read on these threads these cases are not that at all, i commented once like what 3 months ago on one of these"im cool i'm friends with dancer" bullshit threads or one guy cause he don't spend and dancers talk to him he's a friend, lol, and gave up figuring its hopless getting honesty out of these bullshitt artists, but the level of bullshit recently is so high even i started commenting again, dancers have a few of these guys in every club and they try to inject themselves into dancer lives claiming its real life when it always about the club. or some minimal outside contact, i bet you they are not goin to the dancers residence nor are the dancers going to their place to talk or whatever, do they even call the dancer on the phone on a routine basis? Does the dancer call them to talk about other things other than the club?, i bet you they donn't, are theyy hanging outside the clubs as friends and talkingt there?, and you will see how they evade these questions when people in here ask them point blank.
Kellydancer
01-11-2010, 03:32 PM
This is simply not true. I know it's been said many times before on this board, but clearly it needs repeating. In my experience, the guys who spend the most money are the least grabby.
Agree 100%. The ones I kept in touch with (the one who became a personal friend and others who became regulars I did private parties for) never touched me. That is why I kept in contact with them. The closest it came to any of that is I've given them kisses on the cheek and maybe hugs (I've hugged my one friend). I've found that the guys who tried to grope me were cheapos looking for a skank.
Btw, my one friend never treated me as a stripper ever. My regulars was more of a mixed bag, but they were just in it for the entertainment. In fact I met the wife of one of them and she was fine with the whole thing (as strange as it sounds). I've never done anything sexual with any of them. If I end up sleeping with my one guy friend (or we grope each other) it's because he became my boyfriend.
Phil-W
01-11-2010, 08:55 PM
i bet you they are not goin to the dancers residence nor are the dancers going to their place to talk or whatever, do they even call the dancer on the phone on a routine basis? Does the dancer call them to talk about other things other than the club?, i bet you they donn't, are theyy hanging outside the clubs as friends and talkingt there?
You lose on all accounts, I'm afraid.
Phil.
WiseGuy_TX
01-12-2010, 06:17 AM
You lose on all accounts, I'm afraid.
Phil....i'd agree with Phil on this one.
JoeUnCool
01-12-2010, 06:19 AM
So as a former dancer now, you are saying I am incapable of having friends? I have one or two dudes I met who are cool, and I met them ITC.
I am going along with Meds on this. Its entirely possible to meet people and to have a real and true friendship where the initial meeting was in a strip club. I'm gun shy and I admit it. At the same time, I'm not stupid. I realize that there are good people that are dancers that aren't out to scam everyone/anyone. I still keep in contact with two, neither have danced in years:
The girl from DC that did not scam me when I was way too drunk.
The girl I refer to as Mother Teresa, who acts as a foster mother.
I can tell you anything and everything about their personal lives. I know things that most people wouldn't know.
Now, I'm not saying I'm going to trust anyone. Remember 36% of the dancers that I have known well were hookers. Thats not a great percentage. I know I come over as a hardass, and I am even in real life but the truth is that balance is the key.
How do you figure out who you can trust and who you can't? I have no idea what kind of system/decisions will work for you. I know what hasn't worked in the past for me. :-X