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Hopper
01-16-2010, 09:51 PM
ok so i assume you mean with at least once dancer, presumably one you met at club but never bought dancers with,, you are on occassion are hanging at her place? So you are real life friends?

you usually talk of certain dancer friends who you stopped being a customer of, or they stopped it on their own, refuse to accept dancers from you i think you said, who you say are like close frends, or something like that, and you go to a certain club with the intention of hanging with them when they are not busy with regulars or whatever, regulars they might have low opinions of. you hang with these girls at their house too ? or is it just a club thing?.

i go probably to to at leasst at different times 8 to 10 clubs up and down the coast here overall and meet many dancers but i could never imagine hanging at a dancer house, maybe i might call some club friends if i had a name for it.j and if and when they leave the business, as some do now and then,, i know i will never see any of them again, so you think you will hang with these girls if they stop dancing too?

if you don't expect them to hang with you when they leave the business, then its really just club friends

Bem said that he hangs with some of his stripper friends at their homes.

I don't see why all strippers would be completely unable to make IRL friends with customers. Bem was not saying it happens often - he said it is rare.

I agree with Yoda that a stripper would not necessarily want a customer who became a friend to stop buying dances from her. He has already bought maybe twenty dances from her by that time and when he goes to the club he sees her on stage anyway. Why stop?

The logic of your idea that dancers would never genuinely make friends of customers because they prefer to have the money doesn't fit wth what bem said about strippers wanting these friends to stop having dances with them. Obviously they cease to make any money from them at that point.

WestCoast101
01-17-2010, 12:15 AM
Bem said that he hangs with some of his stripper friends at their homes.

I don't see why all strippers would be completely unable to make IRL friends with customers. Bem was not saying it happens often - he said it is rare.

I agree with Yoda that a stripper would not necessarily want a customer who became a friend to stop buying dances from her. He has already bought maybe twenty dances from her by that time and when he goes to the club he sees her on stage anyway. Why stop?

The logic of your idea that dancers would never genuinely make friends of customers because they prefer to have the money doesn't fit wth what bem said about strippers wanting these friends to stop having dances with them. Obviously they cease to make any money from them at that point.

Get real Hopper, you're kidding yourself, I have years of experience going to strip clubs and I can tell you, unless in the very rare case a dancer falls in love with a customer, she's not going (and certainly not multiple girls like Bem is claiming) to drop the wall of privacy and let a guy in her home or in her life in any real way outside the club. Dancers need a very very good reason to do that, and hanging with an itc non-paying non-customer otc aint a very good one. Customers can be delusional, i had this hot chick dancer back in Fresno back in 01 and i started to get deluded, and a friend of mine gave me a wakeup call, and you know he was right. What we have here is i believe is "club friend" thing being deluded into the "real life friends"things. Look back on this thread and notice one of the dancers asked a very legitimate question requesting more specificiity as to what reality was in this case, but the answer was never given. Bem mentioned at his "club of choice" that one of the girls is #1 in the city and she refuses dances even when others offer to pay, so he's got what i presume to be a very hot dancer talking to him for free, one i guess is also bitchin about her regs or whomwever they she has "low opinions" of. To me that means potential for a classic case of delusional thinking on a customers part, not that he isn't friends, but i think he is mixing up "club friends" with real life friends. The question is what precisely makes this girl and maybe the other girls at his club of choice anytthing more than club friends. I don't see the answer, and others aside from me have asked basically the same question.

yoda57us
01-17-2010, 03:56 AM
Get real Hopper, you're kidding yourself, I have years of experience going to strip clubs and I can tell you, unless in the very rare case a dancer falls in love with a customer, she's not going (and certainly not multiple girls like Bem is claiming) to drop the wall of privacy and let a guy in her home or in her life in any real way outside the club.

WC, you are the one who needs to "get real". I am not questioning your experiences but they are your experiences. Others have had different experiences. There are no absolutes in strip clubs or in life.

Hopper
01-17-2010, 09:00 AM
Get real Hopper, you're kidding yourself, I have years of experience going to strip clubs and I can tell you, unless in the very rare case a dancer falls in love with a customer, she's not going (and certainly not multiple girls like Bem is claiming) to drop the wall of privacy and let a guy in her home or in her life in any real way outside the club. Dancers need a very very good reason to do that, and hanging with an itc non-paying non-customer otc aint a very good one. Customers can be delusional, i had this hot chick dancer back in Fresno back in 01 and i started to get deluded, and a friend of mine gave me a wakeup call, and you know he was right. What we have here is i believe is "club friend" thing being deluded into the "real life friends"things. Look back on this thread and notice one of the dancers asked a very legitimate question requesting more specificiity as to what reality was in this case, but the answer was never given. Bem mentioned at his "club of choice" that one of the girls is #1 in the city and she refuses dances even when others offer to pay, so he's got what i presume to be a very hot dancer talking to him for free, one i guess is also bitchin about her regs or whomwever they she has "low opinions" of. To me that means potential for a classic case of delusional thinking on a customers part, not that he isn't friends, but i think he is mixing up "club friends" with real life friends. The question is what precisely makes this girl and maybe the other girls at his club of choice anytthing more than club friends. I don't see the answer, and others aside from me have asked basically the same question.

I'm basing what I say on the assumption that bem and yoda are telling the truth about meeting strippers outside of the club. Obviously that is what you are questionning. If they are, then they are not deluded about being friends IRL with these strippers. However, whether or not bem and yoda are telling the truth, I don't see why it couldn't happen.

Strippers would not lower the "wall of privacy" for just anyone, that's true. But if they met someone they liked as a friend, I don't see why they would not. Particlularly if they let all their friends know they strip. If they keep it a secret from other IRL friends, then in the case of a friend they make ITC, it's not a secret. However, hey may fear that associating with customers outside the club would threaten to blow their cover with their other friends, family, etc. they keep their stripping a secret from.

yoda57us
01-17-2010, 10:13 AM
I'm basing what I say on the assumption that bem and yoda are telling the truth about meeting strippers outside of the club.

Honestly, I wouldn't base pages and pages of debate on the musings of two anonymous guys sitting behind computer screens that you don't actually know. However, that being said, I come here to talk about my experiences with dancers and strip clubs. I can't really imagine what anyone would gain from lying on an anonymous website. What exactly would be the point?


whether or not bem and yoda are telling the truth, I don't see why it couldn't happen.


exactly...

WestCoast101
01-17-2010, 02:23 PM
hopper not sure why you bring up yoda as i've read dozens of his posts and didn't quesiton their authenticity as i too go to many different clubs , definiitely no delusional things i can see at all, and they make sense for a guy who spends itc and i recall does pay for play otc and knows dancers at some level in and out of the club, i am specificically questioning what bem is claiming because i think he might be mixing up what i call club friends with "real life" friends, maybe its "club friends plus" bur i doubt its real life. I only see him howeer claiming to go the actual house of one stripper, one he never boiught dancers ith, but he refuss to explain what "real" means in regards to his dancer friends at his club of choice, and a dancer before asked about this. so i have to assume its not real life.

WestCoast101
01-17-2010, 03:43 PM
WC, you are the one who needs to "get real". I am not questioning your experiences but they are your experiences. Others have had different experiences. There are no absolutes in strip clubs or in life.


fair enough but i think you are calling this one wrong, and i avoided additional comments on the 'friends" issue for a few months until i saw the bullshit on this thread hitting the stratosphere once again, namely the response to Ks Stevia's very legitimate question asking Bem "Do you spend alot of social time with your dancer 'friends' and their group of 'friends" Bem?" The non answer "answer" fit a sort of vague all purpose proves nothing disproves nothing response and still dindn't answer the same things i was wondering before whether he is really IRL friends with these dancers he spends next to nothing on but comes to the club hoping to see them iincluding one he describes as #1 in the city or something to that effect and where by "mutual agreement"? they will be friends and instead of being a customer and dancer relationship who i guess even refuses money for dances even when others in the club offer to pay for bem to dance with this girl.. My comments on the "wall of privacy" are near universal rule, with some exceptions, but this is about "club friends" from what i am reading based upon the info being provided.

JoeUnCool
01-17-2010, 05:03 PM
Get real Hopper, you're kidding yourself, I have years of experience going to strip clubs and I can tell you, unless in the very rare case a dancer falls in love with a customer, she's not going (and certainly not multiple girls like Bem is claiming) to drop the wall of privacy and let a guy in her home or in her life in any real way outside the club. Dancers need a very very good reason to do that, and hanging with an itc non-paying non-customer otc aint a very good one. Customers can be delusional, i had this hot chick dancer back in Fresno back in 01 and i started to get deluded, and a friend of mine gave me a wakeup call, and you know he was right. What we have here is i believe is "club friend" thing being deluded into the "real life friends"things. Look back on this thread and notice one of the dancers asked a very legitimate question requesting more specificiity as to what reality was in this case, but the answer was never given. Bem mentioned at his "club of choice" that one of the girls is #1 in the city and she refuses dances even when others offer to pay, so he's got what i presume to be a very hot dancer talking to him for free, one i guess is also bitchin about her regs or whomwever they she has "low opinions" of. To me that means potential for a classic case of delusional thinking on a customers part, not that he isn't friends, but i think he is mixing up "club friends" with real life friends. The question is what precisely makes this girl and maybe the other girls at his club of choice anytthing more than club friends. I don't see the answer, and others aside from me have asked basically the same question.

WC, I am sorry, but I completely disagree with your statement. I have been in and out of strip clubs the vast majority of my life (24 years, and I'm only 42). In that time, I've had a few girls or groups of girls that I have hung out with and been friends'm referring to girls that I hung out with outside the club. I could tell you who they were dating, who had a one night stand when, who had a child and was concerned about something, and I even had a key to one girl's place. I have known just about everything that they were doing. I still keep in contact with two of them and consider them good friends of mine.

If you have read my trip reports, you'd know that I do not trust dancers by default. At the same time, dancers are people to. If you meet a number of criteria, they just might consider you a friend, instead of a custie.

WiseGuy_TX
01-17-2010, 05:30 PM
...generally agree with JoeUnCool. Everyone is not going to agree on what a "dancer friend" is. I have just as much of a friendship with some dancer friends (OTC/ITC) as i do with some non-dancer friends working Walmart (OTW/ITW).

WestCoast101
01-17-2010, 06:24 PM
JoeUnCool, if you are hanging outside the club with these girls, and have a key to their apt or house, then i guess you are "real life" friends, that's not the case with Bem, as he only recently, 2 days ago, claimed with ONE dancer, a dancer he never has bought a dance from, that he was i assume at her house. All the other claims are about the club, and otc is kept real vague, yet he claims to be "close friends" with dancers yet cannot tell use this means anything of sutstance beyond the. club, and remember phone messages or calls are meaningless, they don't mean anthing about IFL.

also he repeatedly claims to be 'close friends' with one or two dancers at his "club of choice" where he visits all the timet i guess and has "mutual agreements" to be "real" friends and not "faux" friends like paying customers, yet his other comments merely confirm its really always about the club. I tried to call this bullshit out back in the "Prolonged Effort" thread back 5 or 6 months ago, and got no answers then either. so gave up..


his comments from August include "The thing is it is entirely up to her whether you move into that second ( or even first ) circle of friends. At my current club of choice, there are several dancers I have more to do with IRL than inside the club. One is a girl I did a significant number of dances with over the years but a few years ago began limiting it to bailing her out on bad days. She hasn't asked my help in over a year. A few weeks ago, a customer offered to buy me 15 minutes in CR with her. Much to his surprise, she refused. I had mixed emotions personally, as she's probably the #1 girl in the city. ( actually, I felt good she said "no" since I predicted beforehand she would ) ....There are other RL friends who have asked me not to even visit them at the stage and one ( now retired ) girl who asked me to avoid visiting when she was working. So I can see why this might not be considered a good thing by some. Personally, I'd rather be thought of as a friend than as a customer, regardless of the treatment I might be getting in the club. I automatically lose interest in anyone I'd have to pay to spend time with me."

its a simple question asking what is "real life" and unless he's hanging with these girls, visting their house,things like that , then itss just a club thing, which is ok but you cannot claim its IRL just because you are not paying and the dancer is talkikng to you. otherwise its delusional bullshit.

yoda57us
01-17-2010, 06:26 PM
fair enough but i think you are calling this one wrong, and i avoided additional comments on the 'friends" issue for a few months until i saw the bullshit on this thread hitting the stratosphere once again

I'm not calling it anything WC. I am merely reminding you that your opinions are just that, opinions, not fact. As I've said before, I read the posts, take people on their word and respond to what they posted. I really don't know (or care) if people post here honestly or not. What I do know is that, unless you can read the minds of total strangers, you don't know if people are bragging, lying, story-telling or just confused any more than I do.

It amuses me to no end that this thread has gone on as long as it has based more on a semantics debate than on the original premise of the thread...

Hopper
01-17-2010, 07:05 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't base pages and pages of debate on the musings of two anonymous guys sitting behind computer screens that you don't actually know. However, that being said, I come here to talk about my experiences with dancers and strip clubs. I can't really imagine what anyone would gain from lying on an anonymous website. What exactly would be the point?

I wasn't questionning your honesty, only acknowledging that WC doesn't appear to. It now appears that he was not questionning your or bem's honesty, just whether bem is friends with strippers outside of their clubs, and whom he has not bought dances from.

I also wasn't basing all my comments so much on the truth of peoples alleged experiences here but on whether a stripper would or would not make friends with customers outside of their clubs and why. But I was basing my discussion of what you and bem tell us on your word.

JoeUnCool
01-17-2010, 07:21 PM
it's silly and unrealistic when people come in and post here in "absolute" terms. A dancer would never really like a customer in such and such circumstances or a customer would never blah blah.

I wish that more people on this site felt like you J. I've had enough badness happen, but even I've never felt like every X was bad.

WestCoast101
01-17-2010, 07:50 PM
The dancers as 'friends" issue is a recurrent issue on this site, and i am simply presenting the entirely relevant issue that "club friends" is very different than asserting a dancer is a '"real life" friend. Bem has made a multitude of statements this past yr in regard to the "dancer as friends" theme, in many other threads and once again in this thread.

So i now ask that he be specific, and one obvious example would be in reference to his dancer friend (s?)at his "club of choice" who by "mutual agreement" they together decided buying dances was inappropriate and uncomfortable , so much so she won't even accept others paying for dances, to whom he hangs and talks with basically for free in the club when she isn't tied up with other (i presume paying) customers

What makes her a real life friend instead of just a club friend? do you go to her house or apt?. do you hang together outside the club?, does she call you apart from club issues? do you talk on the phone on a routine basis?

yoda57us
01-17-2010, 08:22 PM
What makes her a real life friend instead of just a club friend? do you go to her house or apt?. do you hang together outside the club?, does she call you apart from club issues? do you talk on the phone on a routine basis?

Dude, not that I feel the need to defend another poster but why is this so important to you? Honestly, if it was me you were asking I would tell you it's none of your GD business and kindly F'off.

It's just words on a computer screen for cryin' out loud. Why is it so hard for you to accept that someone else may have a different set of experiences than you have had? Jeez, give it a rest already.

WestCoast101
01-17-2010, 09:25 PM
bullshit is bullshit even when based upon the delusional thinking of a strip club customer, even a non-paying customer, and yodel don't worry, because he will continue to evade, deflect, sidestep,and provide non-answer "answers" to even the most elementary questions, just as he has in the past, so there's no real point in even asking them anymore. !!! thenl you will be happy.

yoda57us
01-18-2010, 07:36 AM
bullshit is bullshit even when based upon the delusional thinking of a strip club customer, even a non-paying customer, and yodel don't worry, because he will continue to evade, deflect, sidestep,and provide non-answer "answers" to even the most elementary questions, just as he has in the past, so there's no real point in even asking them anymore. !!! thenl you will be happy.

"Yodel"? My, how 8th grade of you....

So when someone doesn't agree with you it's time to call them names? OK as long as I understand where you are actually coming from.

If you've been paying attention it would be pretty obvious to you that I've been busting BEM's balls on this site for years. I don't agree with him on a lot of issues and he doesn't agree with me so we spar about it. I could f'n care less about his personal relationships with dancers. I don't need to know anything about his personal life to argue with him on this board about what we talk about on this board. Full disclosure is not required to participate on a message board.

Get over yourself WC. Your motives are clear and they have nothing to do with any sort of altruism.

WestCoast101
01-18-2010, 10:23 PM
yoda, take a chill pill, i really don't care what you do or do not "need to know", the question was not directed at you, and its continued non-answer merely affirms my growing suspicion that there is probably some delusional thinking going on here on the issue of dancers as "club friends" vs "real life" friends.

yoda57us
01-19-2010, 05:52 AM
yoda, take a chill pill, i really don't care what you do or do not "need to know", the question was not directed at you, and its continued non-answer merely affirms my growing suspicion that there is probably some delusional thinking going on here on the issue of dancers as "club friends" vs "real life" friends.

Since you are raising all of these suspicions on a public forum I get to put in my 2 cents whether it's about me or not. That's what we do here...

Chill pill? What makes you think I'm not chilled WC? You are the one who is so obsessed with the belief that something couldn't possibly happen that you insist one would have to be lying or confused to believe that it is.

JoeUnCool
01-19-2010, 07:20 AM
The level of disagreement on this thread is amazing to me. I really don't get it.

bem401
01-19-2010, 08:52 AM
bullshit is bullshit even when based upon the delusional thinking of a strip club customer, even a non-paying customer, and yodel don't worry, because he will continue to evade, deflect, sidestep,and provide non-answer "answers" to even the most elementary questions, just as he has in the past, so there's no real point in even asking them anymore. !!! thenl you will be happy.

I haven't replied because I was away for the weekend without internet access. I'm reluctant to quote and refute each of your attacks on me because that would take me all day. You make reference to "non-answers" on my part. I am not withholding answers or being evasive. Ask me specifics and I'll answer you.

Nothing I have posted here is wrong or an exaggeration in my opinion. While its true that Yoda and I have differences of opinion and bust each other's balls on the site, neither of us call the other an out-and-out liar. We just see things differently because we have different experiences.

As far as the real-life friendships that evolved out of the clubs are concerned, they were not the sorts of things I aspired to when I started visiting the clubs. They just happened, much to the surprise of many, myself included sometimes. One of the unique things about RI is that the degrees of separation between people are very small. It was never unusual to meet a dancer and find out very quickly that we had common acquaintances outside the club. That only serves to challenge dancer/customer opportunities.

The dancer who refused a customer's money to dance for me does not have the most involved RL involvement with me though we've known each other for 7 or 8 yrs. We just lost interest in developing and maintaining a dancer/customer relationship. She was also never at the very top of my list of dancers when I was an active customer. I am also very close with someone who immigrated to this country with her 30 yrs ago and was her childhood best friend (but doesn't know she dances). I also know her mother, aunt, brother, one of her sisters, and her real life BF. I know where she lives but have never had a reason to stop by. We have bumped into or met each other outside the club when there's been a reason. Our RL relationship has never been romantic. There have been times in the club where she has asked me to keep her regulars occupied while she grabs a dance or 2 elsewhere. BTW, there are people who read these posts who can challenge what I am saying as false if in fact it is because they know who we are. Oh and she was not the one whose house I was at friday when I posted.

As I mentioned, there are several others with whom I've developed RL friendships. Some have sought out my advice on RL issues regarding their education or advancement to careers outside of dancing. I'm well known in the area for my golf-involvement. Several people from the club have sought my help for themselves or family members. Many of the girls I've become frienly with never drew my attention as dancers in the first place. Some are girls who chose never to try to engage me as a customer either. I don't know what you want me to say. It has been my experience with several girls that a dancer/customer relationship was something we stayed away from. Hell, I even had an escort 5 years ago who asked me if we could just be friends instead.

yoda57us
01-19-2010, 09:30 AM
The level of disagreement on this thread is amazing to me. I really don't get it.

Really? It's seems pretty simple to me...

WestCoast101
01-19-2010, 12:32 PM
Bem, I appreciate you responding, and remember i get accused of bullshit all the time in regards to (sincere but not always clearly stated) comments I make in regards to using evolution and natural selection to explain human behavior.

I have no doubt you are club friends with various dancers, however I believe you are mis-using the term "IRL", which is a very precise term, and what your saying now supports that further. Also you are continually dismissive of guys that spend money, saying to Goldenrule a number of months back if your paying money, a dancer can never be a "friend" just an "employee". The mere absence of paying doesn't make it IRL any more than than the paying guy. Ok its "real life" in the club and maybe a passing contact outside the club,but that is not "real life" as one might typically define that term

5 months ago you said:

"The thing is it is entirely up to her whether you move into that second ( or even first ) circle of friends. At my current club of choice, there are several dancers I have more to do with IRL than inside the club. One is a girl I did a significant number of dances with over the years but a few years ago began limiting it to bailing her out on bad days. She hasn't asked my help in over a year. A few weeks ago, a customer offered to buy me 15 minutes in CR with her. Much to his surprise, she refused. I had mixed emotions personally, as she's probably the #1 girl in the city. ( actually, I felt good she said "no" since I predicted beforehand she would ) ...."

now you say:

"The dancer who refused a customer's money to dance for me does not have the most involved RL involvement with me though we've known each other for 7 or 8 yrs. We just lost interest in developing and maintaining a dancer/customer relationship. She was also never at the very top of my list of dancers when I was an active customer. I am also very close with someone who immigrated to this country with her 30 yrs ago and was her childhood best friend (but doesn't know she dances). I also know her mother, aunt, brother, one of her sisters, and her real life BF. I know where she lives but have never had a reason to stop by. We have bumped into or met each other outside the club when there's been a reason. Our RL relationship has never been romantic. There have been times in the club where she has asked me to keep her regulars occupied while she grabs a dance or 2 elsewhere. BTW, there are people who read these posts who can challenge what I am saying as false if in fact it is because they know who we are. Oh and she was not the one whose house I was at friday when I posted."

You stated first it has MORE to with real life, now your backpedalling and saying its really not really about that with this girl (who turns down paid-for dances) at your "club of choice", so come on, that's still a bit of dancing and weaving, and maybe not clear thinking here if you still claiming its IRL

WestCoast101
01-19-2010, 01:00 PM
The level of disagreement on this thread is amazing to me. I really don't get it.

let me explain it, everyone has theories in life, mine are about socio-biology explaining human behavior, Bem's seem to be about being a non-paying customer, perhaps going from paying to non paying by "mutual agreement" or its "uncomfortable" or whatever and (at least in certain cases) if the dancer is still talking to you in the club on an ongoing basis, and maybe you have some common acquaintences outside the club and maybe once in a blue moon a passing contact outside the club, that makes it a "real life" friends relationship. I think its bullshit, its not IRL, and just because a dancer gives up requesting money for dances, and maybe likes talking to you in the club, it does not catapult it to real life "friends" or "close" friends" status. This theme is in many different threads of Bem, and its a relevant topic, and it involves the issue of club friends vs real life friends. I actually have club friends, and i pay them and make sure they make money from me, because i know i am at their job taking THEIR timeR, and I don't focus on one club in one area, and yes i don't know or attempt to know common acquaintances, but I am not claiming this "real life" bullshit. My comments are legit commentary in here, sorry

Phil-W
01-19-2010, 03:59 PM
^^^

Friday night, I'm doing what I do several times a month with a dancer. She's not working, so we're going out for a quiet drink and maybe a meal. And before you ask, we split the bills right down the middle.

I met her at work, I still give her lifts home from work if required, and it so happens we like each others company outside of work. C'est la vie....

Phil.

Hopper
01-19-2010, 05:14 PM
I think the argument here is about whether dancers can become friends IRL with customers who buy dances from them and also whether customers can continue to buy dances from strippers after they are IRL friends. I guess all you have to do is tell us your experiences relating specifically to this.

Personally, I would probably be interested in dating a stripper I buy a dance from rather than being her friend.

JoeUnCool
01-19-2010, 08:01 PM
Really? It's seems pretty simple to me...

Yeah, can u do some 'splaining regarding wtf is going on? It reads to me like someone doesn't believe that a dancer could ever be friends with someone she met at her club. And then there are an excruciating large number of statements statements about how this can/can't ever happen. What did I miss?

yoda57us
01-19-2010, 08:26 PM
What did I miss?

You didn't miss anything dude. This is how message boards work. People tend to disagree a lot more than they agree. Arguments ensue. I think it's kinda fun!

KS_Stevia
01-19-2010, 11:28 PM
Phil = Ok. Yoda = fuckin awesome

Bem = creepy liar

bem401
01-20-2010, 09:02 AM
I have no doubt you are club friends with various dancers, however I believe you are mis-using the term "IRL", which is a very precise term, and what your saying now supports that further. Also you are continually dismissive of guys that spend money, saying to Goldenrule a number of months back if your paying money, a dancer can never be a "friend" just an "employee". The mere absence of paying doesn't make it IRL any more than than the paying guy. Ok its "real life" in the club and maybe a passing contact outside the club,but that is not "real life" as one might typically define that term
You stated first it has MORE to with real life, now your backpedalling and saying its really not really about that with this girl (who turns down paid-for dances) at your "club of choice", so come on, that's still a bit of dancing and weaving, and maybe not clear thinking here if you still claiming its IRL

West, I have RL friendships with some dancers, club friendships with other dancers, and I avoid other dancers. Years ago, I was a regular customer to many different dancers. To me RL friendships just mean interaction and interest in each other unrelated to either person's role in the club. There are plenty of dancers at my club of choice I have occasion to interact with unrelated to the club. As such, I never treat them like a dancer and they never treat me like a customer. Neither of us want to go there. Its nothing that was planned. I don't know what else to tell you.

The dancer in question and I just have enough familiarity with each other outside the club to complicate engaging in club activities together. That's all. We've known each other for nearly a decade and have leaned on each other enough for support over the years to make the dancer/customer relationship awkward. I don't see how I'm backpedaling at all. I only downplayed our RL involvement so it would not be misconstrued as romantic.

KS can think and say what she wants but I'll repeat what I said earlier: there are people who can check the truthfulness of what I am saying. I mentioned this discussion to a dancer friend or two yesterday and they maintained that they would not be interested in engaging in dancer/customer behavior with me specifically because we have interaction unrelated to the club. And trust me, I don't go in the club expecting them to make time to spend with me. I kill an hour or so in there maybe 2 or 3 times a week. If they come by, they do. If they don't, they don't. It doesn't impact our friendship at all because I understand the situation.

yoda57us
01-20-2010, 06:25 PM
KS can think and say what she wants but I'll repeat what I said earlier: there are people who can check the truthfulness of what I am saying.

Now really BEM, please understand that I am not calling you a liar but honestly, this statement is just silly.

yoda57us
01-20-2010, 06:26 PM
Phil = Ok. Yoda = fuckin awesome

Bem = creepy liar

I never argue with a beautiful woman....;)

WestCoast101
01-20-2010, 06:49 PM
bullshit is bullshit even when based upon the delusional thinking of a strip club customer, even a non-paying customer, ...... he will continue to evade, deflect, sidestep,and provide non-answer "answers" to even the most elementary questions, just as he has in the past,.


West, I have RL friendships with some dancers, club friendships with other dancers, and I avoid other dancers. Years ago, I was a regular customer to many different dancers. To me RL friendships just mean interaction and interest in each other unrelated to either person's role in the club. There are plenty of dancers at my club of choice I have occasion to interact with unrelated to the club. As such, I never treat them like a dancer and they never treat me like a customer. Neither of us want to go there. Its nothing that was planned. I don't know what else to tell you.

The dancer in question and I just have enough familiarity with each other outside the club to complicate engaging in club activities together. That's all. We've known each other for nearly a decade and have leaned on each other enough for support over the years to make the dancer/customer relationship awkward. I don't see how I'm backpedaling at all. I only downplayed our RL involvement so it would not be misconstrued as romantic.

KS can think and say what she wants but I'll repeat what I said earlier: there are people who can check the truthfulness of what I am saying. I mentioned this discussion to a dancer friend or two yesterday and they maintained that they would not be interested in engaging in dancer/customer behavior with me specifically because we have interaction unrelated to the club. And trust me, I don't go in the club expecting them to make time to spend with me. I kill an hour or so in there maybe 2 or 3 times a week. If they come by, they do. If they don't, they don't. It doesn't impact our friendship at all because I understand the situation.

So you cannot bob and weave and confuse as usual, lets just talk about this one (maybe #1 in the city?) dancer who apparently considers her paying customers as either tedious or has "low opinions" of most of them, and who is apparently your centerpiece example of how a paying customer cannot be a real life friend, and how you both felt uncomfortable etc continuing to dance and by not spending money on her or being a customer or whatever you became her real life friend (or vice versa), and now whom you are saying about "we've known each other for nearly a decade and have leaned on each other enough for support over the years to make the dancer/customer relationship awkward.

Forget your other dancer friends for the moment.

You ever travel with her? You ever go to her house? She ever go to your house? You ever have dinner outside the club together? Do you hang together outside the club? You routinely talk to her on the phone? You email back and forth?

By the way, how would know her family? Most dancers would rather you not know their family. You just run into them too?

Bet none of these are true. except maybe a passing call or message or email, and it takes more than common acquaintances or vague notions of "interaction" outside the club that you never seem to define, to make it a "real life" friendship. It looks like club friends, not bad, but different than real life

You say in another post that you (didn't have a reason to) but in theory could have dropped by her house or apt. Are you saying she wouldn't mind or consider that an intrusion? I have a hard time believing that.

WestCoast101
01-20-2010, 07:42 PM
^^^

Friday night, I'm doing what I do several times a month with a dancer. She's not working, so we're going out for a quiet drink and maybe a meal. And before you ask, we split the bills right down the middle.

I met her at work, I still give her lifts home from work if required, and it so happens we like each others company outside of work. C'est la vie....

Phil.

Now that is a straight forward answer, and its legitimate evidence that you have in fact developed what is very likely a real life friendship with a dancer.

In contrast, let me point out that obviously in the case you just cited the dancer has made a decision based upon her own free will independent of what occurs in the club to join you for dinner outside the club, very different from what i call the 'captive to their shift" environment of a strip club, where a dancer has little or no control when a guy repeatedly goes to a particular club and seeks out a certain dancer, who he admittedly has no intention of spending money on to to any real extent, over and over again and with little regard for the actual (beyond mere politeness or civility) desires of the particular dancer, which can put dancers in very awkward position, particularly if he guy if injecting himself into the life of the dancer by exagerrating the supposed real life "relationship" or immersing himself with extraneous people in the dancer's life. The point is is usually not truly mutual at all.

Hopper
01-20-2010, 08:21 PM
For pity's sake answer him bem.

WestCoast101
01-20-2010, 11:02 PM
Bem you do hava very dismissive attitude toward guys who spend real money iin clubs, especially guys that have dancers as ATFs, basically consider most or nearly all of them as gullible dupes and fools, and then to add insult to injury you suggest that merely by spending money, they will never reach the "real life" friends status with dancers that you have gained with some, by hardly spending a nickel

in the Prolonged effort thread in August you said among other things: "I advocate my friends make as much as they can from their customers. We've just decided that , by mutual agreement in most cases, we prefer a real friendship to the faux friendships they have with their customers. ......... I occupy no one's time in the club. I stop in to kill an hour. I'm happier to see them busy than not and do not begrudge them going around to guys like you who from whom they make money. What I posted was "pay for companionship" relationships don't work for me. If it works for you, hell, have twice as many, I won't object.........
I don't think any of the girls who choose to spend their free time with me ITC have to worry about finding new work. They all have plenty of guys willing to pay for their attention. Once the tediousness of spending time with them outweighs the benefits, I imagine then it'll be the time to move on.

Let the other fools pay so you can be RL friends, i don't buy it happening that way.

I will be charitable and say you are confused or are delusional (as opposed to dishonest bullshit)) about your IRL 'friends' status with these dancers, especially your showcase level example you cite over and over.at your club of choice.

The question i asked cannot be answered by you, because its impossible, unless you want to contradict yourself more

you say now 'There are plenty of dancers at my club of choice I have occasion to interact with unrelated to the club. As such, I never treat them like a dancer and they never treat me like a customer. Neither of us want to go there."

You don't spend or spend next to nothing. that is why they don;t want to go there.

now you have the same 2 from your club of choice i guess and you now say " i mentioned this discussion to a dancer friend or two yesterday and they maintained that they would not be interested in engaging in dancer/customer behavior with me specifically because we have interaction unrelated to the club. And trust me, I don't go in the club expecting them to make time to spend with me. I kill an hour or so in there maybe 2 or 3 times a week.

they are not not interested because there is no money to make on you.

by you own admission now your entire "real life" friendship consists of at best a few hours talk a week?(assuming they are not busy) - that is hardly IFL close friends status, its really not credible, sorry..

Hopper
01-20-2010, 11:51 PM
^As I understand bem, he is saying that he made a few friends of strippers in the clubs he goes to (either in the club or by chance meeting outside of the club) and they decided after becoming friends that they don't want a stripper-customer relationship. So when he goes to the club, they chat to him when they have time to spare.

I think it is possible for him to be friends with these strippers only inside the club and not IRL, i.e. they don't want to see people outside the club who know about their jobs.

I expect he still buys dances and watches stage shows of other strippers in the same club or other clubs who are not his friends. He is probably just not a customer of the particular strippers he is friends with. If so, he is not saying that he is not like the customers and just in the club to chat. I don't know why he would go to a SC just to chat.

The things we are apparently not clear on are: (1) Does he see them on a friends basis outside the club;(2) are the strippers he is friends from ones he also bought dances from before they became friends; and (3) did he stop buying dances from these striippers before or after he was able to become friends with them?

WestCoast101
01-21-2010, 12:43 AM
^As I understand bem, he is saying that he made a few friends of strippers in the clubs he goes to (either in the club or by chance meeting outside of the club) and they decided after becoming friends that they don't want a stripper-customer relationship. So when he goes to the club, they chat to him when they have time to spare.

I think it is possible for him to be friends with these strippers only inside the club and not IRL, i.e. they don't want to see people outside the club who know about their jobs.

I expect he still buys dances and watches stage shows of other strippers in the same club or other clubs who are not his friends. He is probably just not a customer of the particular strippers he is friends with. If so, he is not saying that he is not like the customers and just in the club to chat. I don't know why he would go to a SC just to chat.

The things we are apparently not clear on are: (1) Does he see them on a friends basis outside the club;(2) are the strippers he is friends from ones he also bought dances from before they became friends; and (3) did he stop buying dances from these striippers before or after he was able to become friends with them?

in regards to his 2 dances referred to at his club of choice, that he always talks about in here.

1. no

2. yrs back on the very hot one

3. he stopped buying dances cause he had no money, plain and simple,

The rest is half-truths, delusions, and bullshit so complicated it cannot be explained very well.

.

WestCoast101
01-21-2010, 09:59 AM
no need to carry this thing any further, unless he forces it

as far as i am concerned the matter is settled, and his bullshit, half-truths, and delusions have finally been exposed, and maybe in the future he can think twice about bad mouthing, insulting, and denigrating actual paying customers from all over the country who pay the freight and actually spend money to keep these girls coming back day to day

yoda57us
01-21-2010, 10:02 AM
LOL, when did this become the analyze BEM thread? LOL, two total strangers obsessed with the words of a third total stranger...

I can't fully put into words how absurd this all looks when I read it....LMAO!

Hopper
01-21-2010, 06:24 PM
no need to carry this thing any further, unless he forces it

as far as i am concerned the matter is settled, and his bullshit, half-truths, and delusions have finally been exposed, and maybe in the future he can think twice about bad mouthing, insulting, and denigrating actual paying customers from all over the country who pay the freight and actually spend money to keep these girls coming back day to day

Doesn't bem tip and buy dances from strippers he is not friends with? Or are you criticising him for not tipping his friend strippers when they talk to him in the club?

WestCoast101
01-21-2010, 10:32 PM
Your ass has been saved Bem.

I've had several inbound contacts over the past week, one not so good for you, and one just tonight, and he says he was a customer of the dancer in question for 2 years, and says he's not been in the club recently because his Brazilian dancer is out of the country for 2 months, but he says you do hang with several dancers and said he "understood for the most part it to be ITC" but because you knew so many people around town, and in other clubs and so forth, and had common acaquantances and somehow knew certain family members including her sister who used to dancer at another club, he wasn't sure whether to call it "real life" or not, said it could be a semantics issue in in your cae,, he took an agnostic or cannot tell one way or the other position.

Now he did say the describing her as possibly #1 in the city would be an understatement, was uncommonly beautiful, and that she could easily be described as having the looks of a finalist in the Miss World contestant, Miss Singapore or Miss China he cited. He adivised that I " cut you some slack" because this girl can get dances with any nearly guy in the club at any given moment, and if you're haniging with her for free, that's a major accomplishment in and of itself,

He also said he believed you didnt think all customers were dupes. that many knew and understood the deal.

So we will call it a draw for now

WestCoast101
01-22-2010, 12:58 AM
Doesn't bem tip and buy dances from strippers he is not friends with? Or are you criticising him for not tipping his friend strippers when they talk to him in the club?

he doesn't buy dances from anyone, but that was not the issue, and I was not criticizing him for not tipping his friends.

The sole issues at stake were:

1. whether his stripper friends were really "real life" or just "club" friends

2. his attitude toward spending customers which can be annoying because they are in essense the ones that allow him to hang with his stripper friends for free,

JoeUnCool
01-22-2010, 09:29 AM
LOL, when did this become the analyze BEM thread? LOL, two total strangers obsessed with the words of a third total stranger...

I can't fully put into words how absurd this all looks when I read it....LMAO!

To make it worse, I can't believe that I'm actually paying attention to a pink thread. But, what should I expect. Two basement level guys arguing in the penthouse are still two guys from the basement. Please are fascinated by car wrecks as well.

yoda57us
01-22-2010, 09:55 AM
To make it worse, I can't believe that I'm actually paying attention to a pink thread. But, what should I expect. Two basement level guys arguing in the penthouse are still two guys from the basement. Please are fascinated by car wrecks as well.

Honestly, CC threads in pink are generally far more fun to follow than blue if you like train wrecks as sport...

In this case though we have digressed to what amounts to two 8th grade girls gossiping over a third 8th grade girl that they both are jealous of. The jealousy is totally unfounded and petty but, as is usually the case in the very small world of the adolescent female, monumentally important to them and only them...::)

I've got to hand it to WC and Hopper however. You have both managed to make BEM the good guy here...

Hopper
01-22-2010, 06:02 PM
Honestly, CC threads in pink are generally far more fun to follow than blue if you like train wrecks as sport...

In this case though we have digressed to what amounts to two 8th grade girls gossiping over a third 8th grade girl that they both are jealous of. The jealousy is totally unfounded and petty but, as is usually the case in the very small world of the adolescent female, monumentally important to them and only them...::)

I've got to hand it to WC and Hopper however. You have both managed to make BEM the good guy here...

I don't know how you got the idea that I am jealous of bem or gossipping about him. I don't see anything to be jealous about. Having stripper friends is not one of my goals. I was just trying to get both sides of the argument straight. Other than that I was interested in bem's comments only because of his claims about stripper attitudes to customers. I took him to task over that only because he was not being very clear about what he meant. I am not interested in what bem does.

I had no reason to believe bem is lying or deluded. And seriously, why would I want to be friends with strippers? I amsure they would make just as good friends as anyone else, but I don't see the special advantage or appeal in it. I'm not that desperate for thrills.

You and bem each have been hanging out at SCs regularly, over a long period, with the same stripppers, so naturally you have made a few friends aming them. I don't, so I haven't. That's all there is to that.

yoda57us
01-22-2010, 07:27 PM
Okie Dokie ;)

KS_Stevia
01-24-2010, 04:04 PM
Bem is totally both lying AND delusional.

WestCoast101
01-25-2010, 12:08 PM
Hopper, you did not initially make it clear you were talking about ITC relationships. When you mentioned developing relationships, I (perhaps wrongly) thought you meant non-ITC.

Non-ITC relationships are not helped at all by behaving like a customer IMO. A lot of the girls do not feel good enough about the guys who patronize them to have anything to do with them outside of work. My comments were based on my impression that you were discussing more than a dancer-customer relationship with the dancer. I have developed several non-ITC relationships with dancers but I was not an active customer of any of them when these things developed. Maybe it was a coincidence, but my RL interaction with any of them only occurred after I stopped being a customer (and I was a respectful customer at that). I do not feel any of these relationships would have developed if I was still considered a customer by any of them.

i've already called it a draw but Ks Stevia could be on the to something considering the above response by Bem last week (to Hopper) using the term "non-ITC" for what is clearly his two "club of choice" dancers , with even my 2nd source (and actualy club customer) trying to defend Bem referring to it as essentially ITC, and oddly enough Bem is here by implication actually using the term "real life" properly meaning non-itc, yet then subsequently a few days later seems to claming "real life" to him simply means just talking about non-club things ITC

Kellydancer
01-25-2010, 12:33 PM
Ok, I shouldn't comment again, but I just got a rather informative pm about this. Apparently Bem is exaggerating. By OTC friends, he means that he frequents a company (non stripping) owned by a dancer's relatives. Also, that he's just cheap and doesn't tip anyone. This isn't to single him out (because this is hearsay), but guys with this attitude (and I've seen this in clubs) are truly delusional about the meaning of OTC friends.

Like I said earlier, I have one guy who became an OTC friend. He's now my boyfriend. He spent money in the club (mostly on foot fetishes), then we really got to know each other in the club because I was one of the few dancers who allowed this. After I left the club we kept in touch because I really liked him. He's met my parents and was even invited to a family birthday party. This is an example of a true OTC relationship. Like I also said earlier in my experience it rarely happens. I danced for years (and still do the rare party) and this happened ONCE. I rarely considered customers as friends, even regulars. Sure, there were a few who spent money and I spent hours dancing/chatting, but they were just human ATMs to me. Sorry, just stating a fact. And I'd never consider a guy who didn't spend money as anything but a loser who couldn't get laid if his life depended on it. I did have male friends who came into clubs and I steered them to dancers to spend on, but this was another issue entirely since they were friends long before dancing.